Always Right Match Committee Round 12 v Geelong

[Scraggers]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. The Match Committee threads has been named after long time WOOF member Always Right who tragically passed away in March 2018.

If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee, what changes would you make after our Round Eleven match against GC Suns for our Round Twelve match against Geelong at Marvel on Saturday night.

For those new to these threads, please give a brief explanation for your changes ... this would add a lot of value to the discussion

[GVGjr]

Bump

[bulldogtragic]

Out:

McNeil (forever)
Hannan (forever)
JOD

In:

Treloar
Cleary
Bruce

[westbulldog]

In
Crozier
Treloar
West
McLean

Out
O'Brien
Weightman
McNeil
Hannan

[Grantysghost]

Out:

McNeil (forever)
Hannan (forever)
JOD

In:

Treloar
Cleary
Bruce

Forever! How dare you ;)

I don't think it's the 21/22 players fault.

Not sure having others in their spot tonight makes us win.

[azabob]

Out:

McNeil (forever)
Hannan (forever)
JOD

In:

Treloar
Cleary
Bruce

A backline of Jones, Gardner, O’Brien and Bruce would be not be very fun to watch.

[bulldogtragic]

A backline of Jones, Gardner, O’Brien and Bruce would be not be very fun to watch.

You just talked TOB into Footscray. Hope you’re happy with yourself. Clarke to debut.

[lemmon]

Out: Hannan, JOD, O'Brien
In: Crozier, Cleary, Treloar

[DOG GOD]

Not sure of ins and outs but no doubt we will play Hawkins/Cameron back into form. ;)

[G-Mo77]

Shuffling deck chairs really. Our depth is poor so need to take a punt on a young up and comer rather than bring in the same ol players every week. Cleary, Buku, Buss need to start getting games, Buss is a fair way away but the others should be in the mix. Not sure if they're suited for this match up but the Ins and Outs seem stale and have to start looking outside of the box rather than rolling out the usual suspects.

[chef]

Which end is our cheer squad?

[meenies]

West in for O'Neil. Need bigger body who can tackle for Geelong.
Treloar in for JOD. If Treloar rested for one more week then MSD pick (my money on Poulter or Sullivan) or Bus.
Cleary as sub for Hannah.

I have followed Clarke for many weeks but just not showing anything in the VFL to be close to warrant selection.

[meenies]

Which end is our cheer squad?
Footscray or Lonsdale St end.

[azabob]

Which end is our cheer squad?

If you are on the interchange side of the ground it is to the left.

[azabob]

Shuffling deck chairs really. Our depth is poor so need to take a punt on a young up and comer rather than bring in the same ol players every week. Cleary, Buku, Buss need to start getting games, Buss is a fair way away but the others should be in the mix. Not sure if they're suited for this match up but the Ins and Outs seem stale and have to start looking outside of the box rather than rolling out the usual suspects.

Agree the changes will be shuffling deck chairs.

Where would you play Khamis? The MC have him pigeoned holed as a forward. Clearly no spot for him up there.

I wouldn’t mind him as a mid sized defender but not sure he has the pace required.

[G-Mo77]

Agree the changes will be shuffling deck chairs.

Where would you play Khamis? The MC have him pigeoned holed as a forward. Clearly no spot for him up there.

I wouldn’t mind him as a mid sized defender but not sure he has the pace required.

Defence, get rid of TOB for good and try him in that role. It may not work but think we need to try something different rather than shuffling TOB, Hannan, Crozier, McLean , McNeil in and out of the team. We rushed Jones in after his injury and it's paid off, O'Donnell out of left field as well and he looks to have some potential and will be better for it. We need to have more balls with selections sometimes rather than being conservative.

[soupman]

Minimal changes please.

We've been awesome since round 2, largely with a settled side, and while we didn't win last night we were probably the better side even with ourmidfield not generating as much quality as usual, our forwardline completely lacking in execution and our defence losing it's ability to shut stuff down.

Some of the names nominated are harsh. O'Brien had a not great night but has been pretty good prior and is still a better hybrid for his role than the alternatives. McNeill was meh but his role isn't even meant to be one we are impressed by and there's no one pushing for selection anyway, JOD didn't offer much but we weren't expecting him to, Hannan was inneffective but basically all our subs are and again kind of gave us what we expected, Weightman nearly won us the game (although through questionable means) and has been a big part of why our forwardline has worked recently.

I don't think any of the mooted replacements (aside from Treloar obviously) are grounded in any real basis of improving us. Cleary is maybe the only one in form, Bruce is less suited to the TOB role than TOB, Crozier is meh, West hasn't looked like earning a game all year, Clarke is very much still finding his feet, Mclean has been a complete non factor in his few opportunities and I honestly think I prefer Hannan at this stage. Khamis is one I like the idea of but we picked a 3 game key defender in JOD to play the exact third tall role up forward that Buku would occupy for two weeks straight so I don't think we have him in our plans anyway.

[Happy Days]

In: Treloar, Cleary

Out: McNeil, JOD

I’m with Soup on the minimal changes but JOD isn’t ready yet and Cleary will give us a little more bounce.

TOB was horrible but he can stay in on the essential condition that he never, ever, ever is allowed to take a kick in again.

[josie]

If Treloar is fit then in for McNeil and McNeil back to sub.

ToB is our new whipping boy.

.

[Danjul]

Saturday night was not a totally unexpected disaster. There?s even a WOOF thread that suggested that it was a real possibility.

Why was it on peoples minds? Because there have been problems leading up to this game. Problems that were not addressed.

We defeated GWS, both teams had the same number of scoring shots. And GWS was missing their best? player. It was a win but not really a confidence booster. Fell over the line against Carlton and despite dominating against Adelaide our forwards looked suspect again.

Cracks were appearing in English?s ruck work but escaped examination in the euphoria around the wins. Grand Final- here we come. Nothing to worry about here. On Saturday the cracks in the forward line and ruck opened further.

Correct me if I am wrong but I saw opposition tap ruckmen give their rovers easy stats in the last 4 games. Bont and Libba struggled uncharacteristically this time. No criticism intended for any of them. We simply have not considered getting a plan B. English is taking 70 or 80 contests against big bodies, and still contributing around the ground.

We spend hours every week deciding whether we will play McNeil, McComb, Hannan, ?. and then more hours reviewing their meagre possessions (none of which were significant). These players should not be part of our strategy.

On Saturday the forwards were struggling. Naughton, Jones, Lobb and Weightman didn?t seem to understand that their reason for being in the team was simply to kick goals. The few we were getting came from others up the field. We needed to change the dynamics, put the Suns defenders under some real pressure. Swing our number 22 player into the mix, shake up the ruck and the forward line, let English get some pressure off the forwards and boot a few goals. Change the predictability around throw-ins, put a doubt into the minds of the opposition midfielders. Never been part of the plan. So echoes of the end of 2021. Let fate play out. Lose.

So lucky we have O?Brien to blame. I don?t see him as being any part of the problem. Lobb?s kick from close in was simply a catastrophe when it hit the behind post and failed to score. Naughton contributed nothing from his easy kick at goal from less than 30 metres. These are our seasoned champions. Two easy goals here and we still win. Our win should never have been at risk. But as we are clearly showing, without a real plan B we are always at risk.

[Happy Days]

Saturday night was not a totally unexpected disaster. There?s even a WOOF thread that suggested that it was a real possibility.

Why was it on peoples minds? Because there have been problems leading up to this game. Problems that were not addressed.

We defeated GWS, both teams had the same number of scoring shots. And GWS was missing their best? player. It was a win but not really a confidence booster. Fell over the line against Carlton and despite dominating against Adelaide our forwards looked suspect again.

Cracks were appearing in English?s ruck work but escaped examination in the euphoria around the wins. Grand Final- here we come. Nothing to worry about here. On Saturday the cracks in the forward line and ruck opened further.

Correct me if I am wrong but I saw opposition tap ruckmen give their rovers easy stats in the last 4 games. Bont and Libba struggled uncharacteristically this time. No criticism intended for any of them. We simply have not considered getting a plan B. English is taking 70 or 80 contests against big bodies, and still contributing around the ground.

We spend hours every week deciding whether we will play McNeil, McComb, Hannan, ?. and then more hours reviewing their meagre possessions (none of which were significant). These players should not be part of our strategy.

On Saturday the forwards were struggling. Naughton, Jones, Lobb and Weightman didn?t seem to understand that their reason for being in the team was simply to kick goals. The few we were getting came from others up the field. We needed to change the dynamics, put the Suns defenders under some real pressure. Swing our number 22 player into the mix, shake up the ruck and the forward line, let English get some pressure off the forwards and boot a few goals. Change the predictability around throw-ins, put a doubt into the minds of the opposition midfielders. Never been part of the plan. So echoes of the end of 2021. Let fate play out. Lose.

So lucky we have O?Brien to blame. I don?t see him as being any part of the problem. Lobb?s kick from close in was simply a catastrophe when it hit the behind post and failed to score. Naughton contributed nothing from his easy kick at goal from less than 30 metres. These are our seasoned champions. Two easy goals here and we still win. Our win should never have been at risk. But as we are clearly showing, without a real plan B we are always at risk.

So is there a change to the team in there or should we just fold the club because everything is so hopeless and bad?

[soupman]

Two easy goals here and we still win. Our win should never have been at risk. But as we are clearly showing, without a real plan B we are always at risk.

This bit to me says that this was one of those occasions where plan B should've just been plan A but better. Our loss wasn't a plan A or B thing, it was just execution.

[Grantysghost]

So is there a change to the team in there or should we just fold the club because everything is so hopeless and bad?

Can we just leave McNeil alone...?

Just leave him alone!

Maybe make Lachie hold the fkn goal umpires flag and everyone will be happy ;)

I know Bont is the greatest player ever and it's never his fault, just wonder if there's any chance he can not drill the ball full pace every time to the forwards.

As a former superstar forward, I do hereby decree I would hate leading to him.

Libba every day. Takes the pace off and puts it out in front.

[Danjul]

So is there a change to the team in there or should we just fold the club because everything is so hopeless and bad?
Changes should focus on the true problem areas. At the moment they don?t.

Falling into the finals for a week is highly likely so things are not hopeless or bad. But are we going to get our first top four finish in a decade? What are the odds after last night? And this team was in a grand final less than 2 years ago. Great effort, any signs of building on it?

Look at the selection of JOD, for example. What problem did it address? 4 possessions followed by 4 possessions. Followed by another game. I looked back through the years and couldn?t find a similar case. People here said they liked his 4 possession game so I looked at part of the replay to see what I had missed. Saw a handpass direct to an opponent. That was enough, (4-1). He is getting experience for the rebuild and good luck to him. With a few more games and 5 kg he could become a star.

But is it a professionally sound strategic decision for the club?s benefit ? Has it helped the team and the club be more successful this season? Short answer is no. We need more flexibility to respond during games. Anticipating the problem and everyone knowing what the solution will be. How to quickly stop the 6 goal runs the opponents know are possible. (The Suns knew it last night and got it.)

Change at the moment is like what you get from a magician. You know it is not real. Then comes an unnecessary loss. But we are hearing that last night was not too bad. The Suns are quite good. No. It was bad. That is the only acceptable response.

[Danjul]

This bit to me says that this was one of those occasions where plan B should've just been plan A but better. Our loss wasn't a plan A or B thing, it was just execution.
We needed plan B to stop the opposition run that followed. 7 goal turn around.

[Grantysghost]

It's a pretty even comp Danj.

Lions smashed the Suns.

We smashed the Crows.

Crows beat the Lions.

Suns beat us.

If you can tell me who wins out of Suns v Crows in Darwin next week you'll have me ;)

[Stevo]

Can we just leave McNeil alone...?

Just leave him alone!

Maybe make Lachie hold the fkn goal umpires flag and everyone will be happy ;)

I know Bont is the greatest player ever and it's never his fault, just wonder if there's any chance he can not drill the ball full pace every time to the forwards.

As a former superstar forward, I do hereby decree I would hate leading to him.

Libba every day. Takes the pace off and puts it out in front.

Nice try big boy :)
McNeil just hasnt grasped his chances like he should.

[Grantysghost]

Nice try big boy :)
McNeil just hasnt grasped his chances like he should.

Agree. It's not his fault we lost though.

It's a tough position he probably wasn't miles off Weightman and Jones.

Not sure if he will make it tbh. Like his movement and commitment to the contest just doesn't seem to get it enough at the stage.

[EasternWest]

Agree. It's not his fault we lost though.

It's a tough position he probably wasn't miles off Weightman and Jones.

Not sure if he will make it tbh. Like his movement and commitment to the contest just doesn't seem to get it enough at the stage.

I like him. I'm not prepared to put a line through his name yet.

[Danjul]

It's a pretty even comp Danj.

Lions smashed the Suns.

We smashed the Crows.

Crows beat the Lions.

Suns beat us.

If you can tell me who wins out of Suns v Crows in Darwin next week you'll have me ;)

the flaw in my comments is I usually only watch Bulldog games. But it allows me to disagree when you say Suns beat us.

We threw that game away. Using the team as an incubator for the 2024 season. Continuing with a dysfunctional forward setup. Allowing their midfielders to walk away from stoppages.

All we needed was to throw a spanner in the works. But where? Probably debatable. But we had to break their system, what they were obviously comfortable with. What did we attempt? Nothing. We had no flexibility to address what wasn?t working for us. We are like a formula 1 team that only has dry weather tyres.

The more even the competition the more important it is to be focused on winning and not make these mistakes. But for it to be even we have slipped. We spent most of 2021 as Top Dog. Now we can be harsh and say some of our wins involved good luck.

[Mofra]

In: Treloar,
Out: McNeil

Cleary or Crozier for one of JOD or TOB - perhaps MC persist with both though as TOB positions himself well and JOD is improving week on week.

I wonder how Lobb lines up this week - could be another 'wing game' for him if we're that concerned about Jezza Cameron (a top 5 player in the comp) and Hawkins (out of form by his high standards).
That puts either JOD or TOB on Gary Rohan which is not ideal.

[lemmon]

What do the Hawkins and Cameron match-ups look like?

I think Jones is most suited to Hawkins as he'll play closer to goal and doesn't have Cameron's running capacity, leaving Cameron with Gardiner or Keath.

Gardiner is probably a better runner than Keath and might be more suited to going with Cameron up the ground, but I'd trust Keath more playing close to goal on Cameron. Gardiner does his best work when he gets a run and jump at the footy, but I think really struggles in marking contests when he's standing shoulder to shoulder.

I'd worry about Cameron sneaking out the back with Gardiner liking to defend a few metres in front of his man. Keath's made some blues with ball in hand this year, but I think his defensive work has been pretty solid.

Think I'd play all three of Gardiner, Keath and Jones - leaving out JOD and O'Brien - so that we have more flexibility with their key forwards.

Interesting match committee coming up!

[Mofra]

What do the Hawkins and Cameron match-ups look like?

I think Jones is most suited to Hawkins as he'll play closer to goal and doesn't have Cameron's running capacity, leaving Cameron with Gardiner or Keath.

Gardiner is probably a better runner than Keath and might be more suited to going with Cameron up the ground, but I'd trust Keath more playing close to goal on Cameron. Gardiner does his best work when he gets a run and jump at the footy, but I think really struggles in marking contests when he's standing shoulder to shoulder.

I'd worry about Cameron sneaking out the back with Gardiner liking to defend a few metres in front of his man. Keath's made some blues with ball in hand this year, but I think his defensive work has been pretty solid.

Think I'd play all three of Gardiner, Keath and Jones - leaving out JOD and O'Brien - so that we have more flexibility with their key forwards.

Interesting match committee coming up!
TBH I'm more concerned about Cameron kicking the ball inside 50 - it's easy to overlook just how good a field kick he is.

[Jasper]

In Treloar and Cleary
Out McNeil and ODonnell

Shame for McNeil and ODonnell but we have a very difficult opponent and they arent in the required form.

[Grantysghost]

the flaw in my comments is I usually only watch Bulldog games. But it allows me to disagree when you say Suns beat us.

We threw that game away. Using the team as an incubator for the 2024 season. Continuing with a dysfunctional forward setup. Allowing their midfielders to walk away from stoppages.

All we needed was to throw a spanner in the works. But where? Probably debatable. But we had to break their system, what they were obviously comfortable with. What did we attempt? Nothing. We had no flexibility to address what wasn?t working for us. We are like a formula 1 team that only has dry weather tyres.

The more even the competition the more important it is to be focused on winning and not make these mistakes. But for it to be even we have slipped. We spent most of 2021 as Top Dog. Now we can be harsh and say some of our wins involved good luck.

I think Rowell was the obvious one to do something about, not Bevo's style though.
I would've tried something. Maybe they did and he was just too good.

Sometimes the opposition is just too good I guess. Rowell was amazing.

[Critter]

Sorry this is so long, but it has been on my mind for a while. I feel we are not maximising the potential within our list.

We seem paralysed in our thinking of how best to get the most out of key players. Essentially, I’m talking of Tim English and Aaron Naughton. Both are franchise quality players whose talents are being wasted because we see them in one guise only, regardless of what performance and hence, logic, tell us.

We have history. Our backline was a basket case for years, essentially due to the lack of KPDs. So, we recruited Liam Jones and he’s been fantastic - an intercepting KPD who has become the focus of our defence. But let’s remember, we are the club that saw Jones as a forward only and then traded him out because we couldn’t see potential. And we are also the club that played All Australian defender Jason Johannisen out of position for 3 long years because, when he was heavily tagged, we couldn’t strategise a way around the problem.

However, the shift in recent years of Dale and Richards to defence might indicate fresh buds of thinking. It facilitated the return of JJ to the backline and created an attacking group of attacking medium/small defenders whose numbers are now such that they cannot be tagged out of a game.

But our weakness is still in our KPDs. GCS game showed this. Only Liam Jones is of elite quality. The rest – Gardner, TOB, Keath and Bruce - are journeymen-status players. Jones sorely needs quality support but it seems quite a long way off. Our potential replacements for him – Busslinger and O’Donnell - are young and yet to prove themselves. However, in Aaron Naughton, we have a ready solution. He is a footballer whose skills are such that he would at least rival Darcy Moore as an elite KPD. Naughton and Jones would lead the best backline in the AFL.

Naughton is a fantastic footballer. He can will himself to any contest and is rarely beaten in any one-on-one tussle. He has great skills as well as physical attributes such as strength, speed and endurance. If you were to send a recruiter out to look for the perfect KPD, I reckon he would return with Aaron Naughton. He would be far more useful to the club in this role than he is in his current role. And he would still have the option of drifting forward for a quarter or two, as does Moore. At his age, he has the potential to be the keystone of our defence for the next ten years.

Tim English could be the archetypal utility, ? la Mark Blicavs. Only better. His attributes are excellent marking, kicking, handball and ground play. But he does have weaknesses. Most particularly, his tap work and the limited physicality he applies at ruck contests. (The way we leak possession at too many CBAs is the cause of ongoing frustration.) Why then, do we not maximise his potential by using him in a position that derives maximum benefit from his skills, i.e. as a follower/utility? We could bolster our capability in the areas where Tim is underperforming (tap ruck-work) by including a more traditional style ruckman.

Jordan Sweet is the perfect adjunct to Tim English. While he has weaknesses in marking and, to a degree, in precision short kicking, he is an excellent tap ruckman who is physically aggressive in ruck contests. Particularly at CBAs. Think back to his rucking stint last year - he couldn’t be pushed around and, at CBAs, he would often follow up the tap contest with strong tackling of oppo midfielders. Not once was there a parade of exits out the front of successive centre bounces. And I bet a few opposition midfielders would be more tired and sore at the end of a game than they are now.

In the follower/utility role Tim would expose oppo rucks for pace and endurance as he moved up and down the line. He would provide a ready path both out of defence and into attack. His skills and height, coupled with his mobility, would make him a very difficult competitor - as he is now - except in this role he would be in more contests, more often.

JUH would remain the key forward supported by Lobb and Darcy – with the latter two alternating between playing from the square or moving up to the 50m line/wing to provide a down-the-line option on the opposite of the ground to English.

The team would look like this:
JJ* L Jones Gardner
Richards Naughton Dale
Baker Liberatore Williams
A Jones Lobb Smith
Darcy** JUH Weightman
Sweet English Bontempelli

Treloar Daniel Macrae Scott

*Until JJ is ready, I would play Baker in his role. Like for like in terms of speed. Move Scott to wing and have Duryea on the bench
** Until Darcy is ready, I would play Buku in his role

[GVGjr]

Fantastic contribution Critter, appreciated.

[mjp]

JJ* L Jones Gardner
Richards Naughton Dale
Baker Liberatore Williams
A Jones Lobb Smith
Darcy** JUH Weightman
Sweet English Bontempelli

Treloar Daniel Macrae Scott


Great post.

We're too big like that mate. WAY too big. Lobb, Sweet, Gardner, Jones, Jamarra and Jones would be lucky to have 25 touches between them...we need either more talls like Naughton and English who will get the ball and contribute in ball movement OR we need more running players who can do the same...

As an aside, you'll never convince me moving Naughton is a good idea but I appreciate the post. :-)

[Matjoh]

Two changes. Treloar in McNeill out for Hannan
McNeill sub [or maybe on the back of a good game at VFL West gets the sub - MC choice].
Hannan has a better ability to take a mark and kick the odd goal than McNeill
The GC game was a shoulda won. Lost due to forward stuffups and a rampaging Rowell who Bevo in his lack of wisdom did nothing about. Forward stuffups include inability to keep the astounding 18 more inside 50's inside 50 and kick at least two more goals viz Naughtons and Marras howlers and our propensity to bomb the ball in.
Can't point the finger anywhere else really, everyone had a dope moment.

[Danjul]

re: Critter

………Jordan Sweet is the perfect adjunct to Tim English. While he has weaknesses in marking and, to a degree, in precision short kicking, he is an excellent tap ruckman who is physically aggressive in ruck contests. Particularly at CBAs. Think back to his rucking stint last year - he couldn?t be pushed around and, at CBAs, he would often follow up the tap contest with strong tackling of oppo midfielders. Not once was there a parade of exits out the front of successive centre bounces……

I think his ship has sailed. There is no evidence that he has improved in the years that he has been at the club. Just wasting his time in the vfl where he just does the hack work. Like most of the others there he has probably given up.

When was he seen as a suitable component of the game plan the AFL team has been using for the last 5 years? His ticket was stamped when we brought in a recognised champion to assist English.

On Saturday we came up against Witts who got 50+ hitouts and about 20 disposals. He brought others into the game. Unexpected? No, it was a repeat of what he has done before. When that data was put into the selection algorithm the printout said JOD would be a better option to counter a potentially dominant performance than Sweet.

The result is history. Soon forgotten- probably by Tuesday - and almost as quickly repeated.

Sweet will only get a game if all the more preferred options, and I suspect Caleb Daniel is on that list- refuse to do it. He is simply another of our talls who made the critical mistake of having a name late in the alphabet.

[Eastdog]

Footscray or Lonsdale St end.

Correction La Trobe Street end :)

[1eyedog]

Sorry this is so long, but it has been on my mind for a while. I feel we are not maximising the potential within our list.

We seem paralysed in our thinking of how best to get the most out of key players. Essentially, I’m talking of Tim English and Aaron Naughton. Both are franchise quality players whose talents are being wasted because we see them in one guise only, regardless of what performance and hence, logic, tell us.

We have history. Our backline was a basket case for years, essentially due to the lack of KPDs. So, we recruited Liam Jones and he’s been fantastic - an intercepting KPD who has become the focus of our defence. But let’s remember, we are the club that saw Jones as a forward only and then traded him out because we couldn’t see potential. And we are also the club that played All Australian defender Jason Johannisen out of position for 3 long years because, when he was heavily tagged, we couldn’t strategise a way around the problem.

However, the shift in recent years of Dale and Richards to defence might indicate fresh buds of thinking. It facilitated the return of JJ to the backline and created an attacking group of attacking medium/small defenders whose numbers are now such that they cannot be tagged out of a game.

But our weakness is still in our KPDs. GCS game showed this. Only Liam Jones is of elite quality. The rest – Gardner, TOB, Keath and Bruce - are journeymen-status players. Jones sorely needs quality support but it seems quite a long way off. Our potential replacements for him – Busslinger and O’Donnell - are young and yet to prove themselves. However, in Aaron Naughton, we have a ready solution. He is a footballer whose skills are such that he would at least rival Darcy Moore as an elite KPD. Naughton and Jones would lead the best backline in the AFL.

Naughton is a fantastic footballer. He can will himself to any contest and is rarely beaten in any one-on-one tussle. He has great skills as well as physical attributes such as strength, speed and endurance. If you were to send a recruiter out to look for the perfect KPD, I reckon he would return with Aaron Naughton. He would be far more useful to the club in this role than he is in his current role. And he would still have the option of drifting forward for a quarter or two, as does Moore. At his age, he has the potential to be the keystone of our defence for the next ten years.

Tim English could be the archetypal utility, ? la Mark Blicavs. Only better. His attributes are excellent marking, kicking, handball and ground play. But he does have weaknesses. Most particularly, his tap work and the limited physicality he applies at ruck contests. (The way we leak possession at too many CBAs is the cause of ongoing frustration.) Why then, do we not maximise his potential by using him in a position that derives maximum benefit from his skills, i.e. as a follower/utility? We could bolster our capability in the areas where Tim is underperforming (tap ruck-work) by including a more traditional style ruckman.

Jordan Sweet is the perfect adjunct to Tim English. While he has weaknesses in marking and, to a degree, in precision short kicking, he is an excellent tap ruckman who is physically aggressive in ruck contests. Particularly at CBAs. Think back to his rucking stint last year - he couldn’t be pushed around and, at CBAs, he would often follow up the tap contest with strong tackling of oppo midfielders. Not once was there a parade of exits out the front of successive centre bounces. And I bet a few opposition midfielders would be more tired and sore at the end of a game than they are now.

In the follower/utility role Tim would expose oppo rucks for pace and endurance as he moved up and down the line. He would provide a ready path both out of defence and into attack. His skills and height, coupled with his mobility, would make him a very difficult competitor - as he is now - except in this role he would be in more contests, more often.

JUH would remain the key forward supported by Lobb and Darcy – with the latter two alternating between playing from the square or moving up to the 50m line/wing to provide a down-the-line option on the opposite of the ground to English.

The team would look like this:
JJ* L Jones Gardner
Richards Naughton Dale
Baker Liberatore Williams
A Jones Lobb Smith
Darcy** JUH Weightman
Sweet English Bontempelli

Treloar Daniel Macrae Scott

*Until JJ is ready, I would play Baker in his role. Like for like in terms of speed. Move Scott to wing and have Duryea on the bench
** Until Darcy is ready, I would play Buku in his role

I like the post and I like the backline. Saturday night is the first time I've entertained the idea of Naughton moving back. Not sure whether I want him there forever or even two weeks but I agree that we should have made the switch on Saturday night and subbed Gardner. I'd like to see Naughton played in the traditional 'Adam Hunter' swingman role on a game by game scenario. It was clear Naughts wasn't going to touch it Saturday night and Gardner also couldn't get near it. Needed to make that change midway through the 3QT at the latest.

I'm not sold on English as a traditional follower starting in the middle I just think opposition mids are too explosive for a Sweet / English set up. I'm open to a combination of Sweet and English in the same side but I'd use Lobb as the relief and play English permanently at CHF removing Darcy from your side and bringing in an additional runner.

Good conversation starter.

[DOG GOD]

Naughton’s kicking for goal will cost us a GF one day, so before that happens, get him to the backline ;)

Also, great post Critter.

[Grantysghost]

Naughton’s kicking for goal will cost us a GF one day, so before that happens, get him to the backline ;)

Also, great post Critter.

Or indirectly by missing the top 4.

Guy can't forward.

[GVGjr]

Or indirectly by missing the top 4.

Guy can't forward.

He's had a couple of years of close to 50 goal seasons, does that not indicate he's a very good forward?

[Grantysghost]

He's had a couple of years of close to 50 goal seasons, does that not indicate he's a very good forward?

He's done really well considering his shocking kicking.
He's a good forward, I just think he'd be a better defender.
I also think defence is the key to winning flags.

[1eyedog]

Saturday night was not a totally unexpected disaster. There?s even a WOOF thread that suggested that it was a real possibility.

Why was it on peoples minds? Because there have been problems leading up to this game. Problems that were not addressed.

We defeated GWS, both teams had the same number of scoring shots. And GWS was missing their best? player. It was a win but not really a confidence booster. Fell over the line against Carlton and despite dominating against Adelaide our forwards looked suspect again.

Cracks were appearing in English?s ruck work but escaped examination in the euphoria around the wins. Grand Final- here we come. Nothing to worry about here. On Saturday the cracks in the forward line and ruck opened further.

Correct me if I am wrong but I saw opposition tap ruckmen give their rovers easy stats in the last 4 games. Bont and Libba struggled uncharacteristically this time. No criticism intended for any of them. We simply have not considered getting a plan B. English is taking 70 or 80 contests against big bodies, and still contributing around the ground.

We spend hours every week deciding whether we will play McNeil, McComb, Hannan, ?. and then more hours reviewing their meagre possessions (none of which were significant). These players should not be part of our strategy.

On Saturday the forwards were struggling. Naughton, Jones, Lobb and Weightman didn?t seem to understand that their reason for being in the team was simply to kick goals. The few we were getting came from others up the field. We needed to change the dynamics, put the Suns defenders under some real pressure. Swing our number 22 player into the mix, shake up the ruck and the forward line, let English get some pressure off the forwards and boot a few goals. Change the predictability around throw-ins, put a doubt into the minds of the opposition midfielders. Never been part of the plan. So echoes of the end of 2021. Let fate play out. Lose.

So lucky we have O?Brien to blame. I don?t see him as being any part of the problem. Lobb?s kick from close in was simply a catastrophe when it hit the behind post and failed to score. Naughton contributed nothing from his easy kick at goal from less than 30 metres. These are our seasoned champions. Two easy goals here and we still win. Our win should never have been at risk. But as we are clearly showing, without a real plan B we are always at risk.

It's not even a real plan B that we need. I get we want to back in the players and the system but it just all feels a bit rigid to me. Very rarely are the magnets moved under Bevo.

[1eyedog]

What do the Hawkins and Cameron match-ups look like?

I think Jones is most suited to Hawkins as he'll play closer to goal and doesn't have Cameron's running capacity, leaving Cameron with Gardiner or Keath.

Gardiner is probably a better runner than Keath and might be more suited to going with Cameron up the ground, but I'd trust Keath more playing close to goal on Cameron. Gardiner does his best work when he gets a run and jump at the footy, but I think really struggles in marking contests when he's standing shoulder to shoulder.

I'd worry about Cameron sneaking out the back with Gardiner liking to defend a few metres in front of his man. Keath's made some blues with ball in hand this year, but I think his defensive work has been pretty solid.

Think I'd play all three of Gardiner, Keath and Jones - leaving out JOD and O'Brien - so that we have more flexibility with their key forwards.

Interesting match committee coming up!

Gardner on Jezza is a big worry. Jezza has way too many smarts and Gardner is one dimensional.

Man I hate to take him out of a position he is absolutely killing it in but Bailey Williams on Cameron would not be an insane concept for me if Bevo was ballsy enough to pulled that lever.

[1eyedog]

He's done really well considering his shocking kicking.
He's a good forward, I just think he'd be a better defender.
I also think defence is the key to winning flags.

Forwards pull memberships and defence wins Premierships.

[GVGjr]

He's done really well considering his shocking kicking.
He's a good forward, I just think he'd be a better defender.
I also think defence is the key to winning flags.

That he could make a better defender makes some sense to me but it's a bit different to the comment that he can't play forward.
Even if he made us a one to 2 goal better defensive unit, which is a big ask, it doesn't mean we can cover his goal kicking and contribution up forward.
If Lobb was contributing more or we had that real break out from Marra I'd be a bit more open to considering the move. Putting Bruce forward might work at closing the gap.

[FrediKanoute]

He's done really well considering his shocking kicking.
He's a good forward, I just think he'd be a better defender.
I also think defence is the key to winning flags.

how do we feel about Naughton, ball in hand kicking out of defence?

[bulldogtragic]

If anyone says we should move Chris Grant from the forward line to CHB then they?re crazy. Moving a proven goal kicker like him into defence would be crazy. What?s he going to do, suddenly become the best CHB in the game capable of nullifying everyone including Wayne Carey? Moves like this never ever work.

Who?s then going to kick our goals, Darcy? Croft? West? A 30+ Liberatore after an ACL?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

If anyone says we should move Chris Grant from the forward line to CHB then they?re crazy. Moving a proven goal kicker like him into defence would be crazy. What?s he going to do, suddenly become the best CHB in the game capable of nullifying everyone including Wayne Carey? Moves like this never ever work.

Who?s then going to kick our goals, Darcy? Croft? West? A 30+ Liberatore after an ACL?

Yes Chris was a better forward or needed forward.
Wish he had a career forward.
Did Pagan put Carey back?

SBS: "AFL PLAYERS TO MISS OUT ON THE BROWNLOW MEDAL BECAUSE OF SUSPENSION:
1997: Western Bulldogs key forward Chris Grant polls one more vote than St Kilda's Robert Harvey. But Grant is ineligible for a controversial one-week striking ban - an open-handed slap on Hawthorn opponent Nick Holland.
"1997: Western Bulldogs key forward Chris Grant".

[GVGjr]

If anyone says we should move Chris Grant from the forward line to CHB then they?re crazy. Moving a proven goal kicker like him into defence would be crazy. What?s he going to do, suddenly become the best CHB in the game capable of nullifying everyone including Wayne Carey? Moves like this never ever work.

Who?s then going to kick our goals, Darcy? Croft? West? A 30+ Liberatore after an ACL?

I get the point you are making but I'm note sure the comparison is a good one because Chris was a brilliant field kick and set up many attacking plays from CHB. Naughton on the other hand is not a brilliant field kick.

[1eyedog]

I get the point you are making but I'm note sure the comparison is a good one because Chris was a brilliant field kick and set up many attacking plays from CHB. Naughton on the other hand is not a brilliant field kick.

Naughts just needs simple instructions. Mark the ball or spoil the ball. Apply pressure and give the ball to JJ, Dale or Richards. Outside of that it's a Crozier down the line instruction. No 15 metre field kicks under any circumstance.

[D Mitchell]

None of Jones, Lobb nor Ugle-Hagan are anywhere near Naughton's capacities as a key forward. As it currently stands, he's the sole reliable key forward on the list.

[bornadog]

None of Jones, Lobb nor Ugle-Hagan are anywhere near Naughton's capacities as a key forward. As it currently stands, he's the sole reliable key forward on the list.
Key forwards are like Gold. Anyone can defend

[Grantysghost]

how do we feel about Naughton, ball in hand kicking out of defence?

That could be an issue!

[Grantysghost]

That he could make a better defender makes some sense to me but it's a bit different to the comment that he can't play forward.
Even if he made us a one to 2 goal better defensive unit, which is a big ask, it doesn't mean we can cover his goal kicking and contribution up forward.
If Lobb was contributing more or we had that real break out from Marra I'd be a bit more open to considering the move. Putting Bruce forward might work at closing the gap.

Yes that was tongue in cheek. He's a good forward.

I wish we had two of him.

Our defence has been great this season so far, however I'm still not sold it's going to stand up consistently going forward.
Jones gets injured we are in all sorts.

In last week's game he looked lost for the first time in a while as a forward. Considering our defensive woes I don't get why we wouldn't move him back.

[Mantis]

Gardner on Jezza is a big worry. Jezza has way too many smarts and Gardner is one dimensional.

Man I hate to take him out of a position he is absolutely killing it in but Bailey Williams on Cameron would not be an insane concept for me if Bevo was ballsy enough to pulled that lever.

If Gardner isn’t playing on Cameron or Hawkins he shouldn’t be picked this week.

[GVGjr]

Key forwards are like Gold. Anyone can defend

I'm not sure it's quite that simplistic.

[Jasper]

Surely it has to be Treloar in for ODonnell at the very least.

[Critter]

Great post.

We're too big like that mate. WAY too big. Lobb, Sweet, Gardner, Jones, Jamarra and Jones would be lucky to have 25 touches between them...we need either more talls like Naughton and English who will get the ball and contribute in ball movement OR we need more running players who can do the same...

As an aside, you'll never convince me moving Naughton is a good idea but I appreciate the post. :-)

Fair call, I expected many wouldn't agree.
Interestingly, both Saturday's side against GCS, and the side I have put up, have 8 talls. I get your point about mobility but my reasoning relates to all over effectiveness as being the measure of value. I've replaced O'Brien and O'Donnell with Sweet and Darcy and I argue their inclusion would make us a better side. O'Brien and O'Donnell may be more mobile but they deliver marginal value. I believe Sweet's inclusion and the use of English as a Ruck/Rover type would improves the effectiveness of our mid-field significantly.

I see two core midfield groups - maybe Bont, Treloar and Libba/ English, Smith and Macrae - swapping around whenever, and with Daniel popping in from time to time. Sweet would carry the rucking load with relief from Lobb. I think this structure would significantly improve our CBA, ball-up and boundary throw-in performance in terms of hit-outs and clearances.

I believe Darcy to be a highly talented forward, who reads the flight of the ball particularly well. I think he could deliver around 2 goals a game. (For what it's worth, I wouldn't have Lobb in my team. However, I understand the emotional and perhaps contractual difficulties with that move.)

The move of Naughton to defence goes to the priority you (the general "you") place upon defence over attack. I come from the camp that prioritises defence. After all, we did win a premiership with Zaine Cordy as centre half forward.

[Critter]

If anyone says we should move Chris Grant from the forward line to CHB then they?re crazy. Moving a proven goal kicker like him into defence would be crazy. What?s he going to do, suddenly become the best CHB in the game capable of nullifying everyone including Wayne Carey? Moves like this never ever work.

Who?s then going to kick our goals, Darcy? Croft? West? A 30+ Liberatore after an ACL?

I'm thinking your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek. From the WB website:

"...Grant showed his versatility when he moved to centre half-back in 1996 and fell just one vote short of winning the Brownlow Medal.

[Mantis]

Fair call, I expected many wouldn't agree.
Interestingly, both Saturday's side against GCS, and the side I have put up, have 8 talls. I get your point about mobility but my reasoning relates to all over effectiveness as being the measure of value. I've replaced O'Brien and O'Donnell with Sweet and Darcy and I argue their inclusion would make us a better side. O'Brien and O'Donnell may be more mobile but they deliver marginal value. I believe Sweet's inclusion and the use of English as a Ruck/Rover type would improves the effectiveness of our mid-field significantly.

I see two core midfield groups - maybe Bont, Treloar and Libba/ English, Smith and Macrae - swapping around whenever, and with Daniel popping in from time to time. Sweet would carry the rucking load with relief from Lobb. I think this structure would significantly improve our CBA, ball-up and boundary throw-in performance in terms of hit-outs and clearances.

I can't see what the obsession is with Sweet and how his relatively poor form in the VFL will translate to him being effective against the competitions best ruckman? Many have the view that he is a superior stoppage ruck compared to English, which might be somewhat true, but in the VFL game against GC, and comparing only the 1st rucks Sweet lost the HO count 21 to 32... so how is he going to somehow beat Witts who is just about the best stoppage ruck in the comp in conditions that totally suited him when he gets out-pointed by Ned Moyle?

And I'm a huge no on English playing purely as a mid.


I believe Darcy to be a highly talented forward, who reads the flight of the ball particularly well. I think he could deliver around 2 goals a game. (For what it's worth, I wouldn't have Lobb in my team. However, I understand the emotional and perhaps contractual difficulties with that move.)

Darcy gets moved off the ball way too easily at the moment.. he's still a couple of years a couple of years away from being effective.


The move of Naughton to defence goes to the priority you (the general "you") place upon defence over attack. I come from the camp that prioritises defence. After all, we did win a premiership with Zaine Cordy as centre half forward.

We almost lost it because of him too.

[1eyedog]

Key forwards are like Gold. Anyone can defend

I don't agree with this entirely.

Forward craft is an ability you can certainly develop and I get why you think forwards are like gold because the best forwards have a high level of natural craft that is really hard to replicate if you've played a heap of footy elsewhere. It's hard to just replicate playing like a forward from any other position on the ground. That's why more forwards go back than backs go forward, although there are exceptions like David Neitz and Alastair Lynch but they are truly great players who clearly had high forward-craft acumen. I guess that's what you're saying. It's harder to find a good key forward than it is to find a good key back because of their innate natural ability that others lack.

I agree that anyone can defend to a point and there are certainly AFL players identified easier through the draft and State leagues who can defend 'well enough' but there's Ryan Gardner and there's Liam Jones isn't there. A question for you is who has been more important to our fortunes this year Naughton or Jones? I have my opinion.

I reckon it takes a very specialist key defender to be able to stifle and beat a very good key forward. It's almost like the immovable object vs the unstoppable force. Like for like and both are equally valuable and hard to find. You can't just find a defender and play them on the best key forwards, well you can but you need a heap of support from your 2nds and 3rds and your midfield so you need alot of resources.

Also, big key forwards are not what they were in the 90s or even over the past 20 years. They aren't kicking as many goals in a season as they did (Franklin is the exception but he's a generational player), and teams are finding more avenues to goal than ever before with smalls, game plan tweaks or with hybrids like Miocheck and Fritsch. Collingwood and Melbourne don't have a really good key forward and they're 1 and 4 on the ladder. Even Sydney reached a Grand Final last year without a decent marking key forward, preferring to roll out a cooked Franklin (who still managed 50 goals cause he's Buddy Franklin). We didn't have one either in 2016.

I don't know what I'm saying. I guess I'm saying for me, key forwards aren't as important as they were and you can definitely find really good ones outside of a top 10 pick (Marshall and Allen around pick 20), Larkey and Walker pick in the 70s, Mihocek rookie draft etc. so they're not the rolled gold they once were.

Really good key defenders are just as important as really good key fowards. Another question, would you pick Curnow who is leading the Coleman over Moore?

[Danjul]

Key forwards are like Gold. Anyone can defend
Is Naughton gold yet? In half of his games this year he has kicked only 1 goal. Ten years ago a burnt out reject called Barry Hall managed over 80 goals by kicking multiple goals almost every week. Admittedly, in those days there was an emphasis on kicking properly that applied to the whole team.

[Danjul]

I can't see what the obsession is with Sweet and how his relatively poor form in the VFL will translate to him being effective against the competitions best ruckman? Many have the view that he is a superior stoppage ruck compared to English, which might be somewhat true, but in the VFL game against GC, and comparing only the 1st rucks Sweet lost the HO count 21 to 32... so how is he going to somehow beat Witts who is just about the best stoppage ruck in the comp in conditions that totally suited him when he gets out-pointed by

In that vfl game the comparison was

Sweet: disposals 11. Tackles 5. HO 22. Points algorithm: 79

Moyle: disposals 7. Tackles 2. HO 33. Points algorithm: 71


for comparison with another ruckman

Lobb: disposals 14 Tackles 2.HO 10. Points algorithm: 62

Or a known player in the same game
Bruce: disposals 11. Tackles 2 HO 0. Points algorithm: 42


Obviously, not everyone saw Sweets game as all that bad. Certainly not great but it does support Critter when he refers to his ground level pressure.

[JanLorMill]

I can't see what the obsession is with Sweet and how his relatively poor form in the VFL will translate to him being effective against the competitions best ruckman? Many have the view that he is a superior stoppage ruck compared to English, which might be somewhat true, but in the VFL game against GC, and comparing only the 1st rucks Sweet lost the HO count 21 to 32... so how is he going to somehow beat Witts who is just about the best stoppage ruck in the comp in conditions that totally suited him when he gets out-pointed by Ned Moyle?

Didn't Sweet play against Witts last year in Ballarat? From memory Witts got at lot of taps but Rowell hardly touched it

[Rocco Jones]

In that vfl game the comparison was

Sweet: disposals 11. Tackles 5. HO 22. Points algorithm: 79

Moyle: disposals 7. Tackles 2. HO 33. Points algorithm: 71


for comparison with another ruckman

Lobb: disposals 14 Tackles 2.HO 10. Points algorithm: 62

Or a known player in the same game
Bruce: disposals 11. Tackles 2 HO 0. Points algorithm: 42


Obviously, not everyone saw Sweets game as all that bad. Certainly not great but it does support Critter when he refers to his ground level pressure.

Out of interest Danjul (and I sincerely hope this doesn't come across as an attack) but you seem to value raw stats hugely. Do you value things other than total disposals, marks, tackles, hitouts etc highly or do you feel if you are getting more of these you must be better?

For example, a guy like Matthew Crouch isn't getting a game for the Crows. He would probably get more disposals than whoever he replaces if Crows gave him a game. Would you play him? I think Crozier would get it more than a few guys in our team too.

[Mantis]

Didn't Sweet play against Witts last year in Ballarat? From memory Witts got at lot of taps but Rowell hardly touched it

In last year's game Witts won the HO count against Sweet 55 to 27, but we won the clearances 49-36. Rowell had 6 touches and 1 clearance.

On Saturday Witts won the HO count against English 51 to 22, clearances were equal with 42 apiece. Rowell had 29 touches and 16 clearances.

[mjp]

Fair call, I expected many wouldn't agree.
Interestingly, both Saturday's side against GCS, and the side I have put up, have 8 talls. I get your point about mobility but my reasoning relates to all over effectiveness as being the measure of value. I've replaced O'Brien and O'Donnell with Sweet and Darcy and I argue their inclusion would make us a better side. O'Brien and O'Donnell may be more mobile but they deliver marginal value. I believe Sweet's inclusion and the use of English as a Ruck/Rover type would improves the effectiveness of our mid-field significantly.


Yeah - but 8 was too many on Saturday night as well.

We need 2x key backs and a defender who can play on both. Right now, we have Jones, Gardner and TOB.
We need 2x key forwards. Right now we have Naughton and JUH.
We need 1x ruckman and another player who can help out. Right now, we have English and Lobb.

We simply don't need O'Donnell right now and he makes 7. I'm not sure who else we played on the weekend to make 8 but my maths are often wrong. We can't be adding Sweet and Darcy to that group without leaving some out...happy for you to propose messing with the magnets but if we go into a game with 8x talls most of who barely touch the footy we are gonna get killed.

Sweet simply doesn't get the ball.
Nor Jones.
Nor Gardner.
Nor JUH (though to be fair he did in the first q last week vs GC).
Nor Lobb.
Nor TOB.
Nor Darcy (he's only a baby to be fair).

English is good for 16-20, Naughton 12-15 - even those aren't great numbers.

Again, happy for the magnets to spin and if you recall I suggested recruiting Lobb when we already had Darcy was folly...but now we've made our bed we need to live in it. I do get frustrated when Naughton takes ruck contests in the forward line when Lobb is RIGHT THERE doing nothing but that's a coaching call...Naughton does occasionally pluck one and get a shot on goal (but that's undemocratic in my eyes and the ruckman should be focussed on bringing the ball to ground, keeping it inside the contest and allowing our mids to go to work...and the rest of the forwards should get the hell outa the way unless they are better clearance players than the mids are...totally another story).

English as a mid? A full strength Geelong with Dangerfield, C. Guthrie etc would make a mockery of him in that role...hell - he wouldn't chase Xavier O'Halloran a couple of weeks back in Canberra so I can't imagine he wants to chase the best gut running mids in the game around the field...

I 100% LOVE your post by the way 'cos I like the idea of thinking differently and looking at what we have but we cannot play 8x talls and we cannot play English as a mid...

[JanLorMill]

In last year's game Witts won the HO count against Sweet 55 to 27, but we won the clearances 49-36. Rowell had 6 touches and 1 clearance.

On Saturday Witts won the HO count against English 51 to 22, clearances were equal with 42 apiece. Rowell had 29 touches and 16 clearances.
To me that says Sweet did better nullifying Witts and the gcs midfield than English, we also won the game.
ok we had Treloar and Dunkley but they had Miller.

[bornadog]

To me that says Sweet did better nullifying Witts and the gcs midfield than English, we also won the game.
ok we had Treloar and Dunkley but they had Miller.

Sweet is way off being an AFL ruckman at this stage

[hujsh]

Yeah - but 8 was too many on Saturday night as well.

We need 2x key backs and a defender who can play on both. Right now, we have Jones, Gardner and TOB.
We need 2x key forwards. Right now we have Naughton and JUH.
We need 1x ruckman and another player who can help out. Right now, we have English and Lobb.

We simply don't need O'Donnell right now and he makes 7.

BTW you have 7 and he makes 8. Got all the players, just miscounted I guess.

[Critter]

In last year's game Witts won the HO count against Sweet 55 to 27, but we won the clearances 49-36. Rowell had 6 touches and 1 clearance.

And Sweet had 6 tackles to Witts 3

[Axe Man]

In last year's game Witts won the HO count against Sweet 55 to 27, but we won the clearances 49-36. Rowell had 6 touches and 1 clearance.

On Saturday Witts won the HO count against English 51 to 22, clearances were equal with 42 apiece. Rowell had 29 touches and 16 clearances.


To me that says Sweet did better nullifying Witts and the gcs midfield than English, we also won the game.
ok we had Treloar and Dunkley but they had Miller.

Hitout numbers mean little, hitouts to advantage more. Last year it was 20 from 55, this year 17 from 51. Pretty similar numbers. Neither English nor Sweet did a great job of nullifying Witts, the best tap ruckman going around who has increased his average hitout to advantage numbers significantly from last season.

Also worth noting Rowell is much improved in 2023 and is leading the league in clearances. The best tap ruckman and best clearance player is a pretty dangerous combination that we probably didn't do enough to effectively curtail. However I don't believe that Sweet would have made a significant difference.

[Danjul]

Out of interest Danjul (and I sincerely hope this doesn't come across as an attack) but you seem to value raw stats hugely. Do you value things other than total disposals, marks, tackles, hitouts etc highly or do you feel if you are getting more of these you must be better?

For example, a guy like Matthew Crouch isn't getting a game for the Crows. He would probably get more disposals than whoever he replaces if Crows gave him a game. Would you play him? I think Crozier would get it more than a few guys in our team too.
I agree that stats have a context and need to be seen in the wide view of how the team is going. They also have to be viewed in terms of the position played and the competition for the role. But they give a summary that is independent of subjective opinions and cloudy memory.

The reason I quoted those particular numbers is I did not see the game. So I looked at the stats published on the AFL website to confirm the comment I had read. They allowed me to compare players, Bruce is experienced and reliable and lost his position in the firsts simply because of injury. The stats suggest that In terms of general play Sweet was comparable.

In terms of tackles 5 is good, people on Woof are saying that was an unacceptable aspect of the main game. They are certainly lacking in Lobbs games- he averages 1 per game.

Importantly, the stats are compiled by an independent observer and summary value uses a neutral algorithm. So without seeing the game I can have reasonable confidence that Sweet contributed more to his team than Moyle did. But they were close.

When people saw JOD get 4 possessions and claimed that he had a good game and deserved to be selected again, to get another 4, I don?t understand how they generate their conclusion. When Lobb joined us he got 5 possessions and people said that was an acceptable start. Lobb is averaging 9 possessions and 1 goal and people are thrilled.

To illustrate, When Schache came to the club he got 10 games averaging 15 possessions and 2 goals per game. At the start of the next season I sat behind the goals and saw him kick 4 match winning goals against Hawthorn (who were still a strong team). Two weeks later he was dropped for two months after his first poor game. What he had done for his team and its supporters was worth nothing. When he got back into the team he got another 10 games and averaged 2 goals and 14 possessions. What I saw at the games and in the statistics record were consistent. The collective stats seem to describe the game the way I see it. So I have faith in them.

By the way, people on Woof were already calling for Schache to be dropped when he was our most consistent and reliable goal kicker. I remember one comment said that he was being carried by a good team. But I also remember that he kicked 30% of the teams goals in his return game. For 20 games he maintained stats that were twice as good as Lobb is doing now. But his days were already numbered. So who is correct in judging performance, the one who has something measurable to assist them or those understand the game?

So back to your question. Nobody has ever explicitly stated what is contributing more to the team than disposals, marks, goals, tackles, metres gained, spoils and 1%ers. I am happy to hear what those things are. Please tell me. But don?t tell me that when Bruce got his third possession late in the game at Marvel last year he deserved to be selected because he had acted as a forward line general (yep, read it on woof). He was selected and got 2 the next week, and those 5 got him selected again.


I think Lobb is an asset and JOD will be very good, so none of what I wrote is criticism. I only refer to them for comparisons.

[GVGjr]

@danjul

First up I appreciate the level of detail you provide us and while I don't always agree with your conclusions I can't fault the effort.

Regarding Schache:
While I agree with you that we didn't make the most of Schache's talents we need to acknowledge that outside of Robert Murphy laconic types typically don't make it or thrive at our club under Bevo. With that in mind the onus is on the player to lift their intensity and I don't think Schache could meet that requirement.
He's been moved on and has had similar challenges impressing Melbourne and Brisbane before us.
I think it's time to put that club back in the bag and move on.

Regarding Lobb:
I've been underwhelmed with his current output but remain hopeful that he can turn it around. I don't think it helps his game to spend time up on the wing but that's just one of the quirks of playing with us. After kicking 38 goals for Fremantle last season we should be setting a higher standard from him but I do understand that sometimes we have to accept a slightly lower benchmark from a structure player.

Regarding O'Donnell:
We've had a decent look at him and I think most of us would agree that he's got a long way to go and that his inclusion made us top heavy against the Suns. We will know on Thursday if the club wants to continue with him in the seniors.

[Danjul]

If you take Naughtons goals from his best 5 scoring games this season you arrive at a total of 15.

In 5 other games he scored 1 goal in each for a total of 5. You don?t know which Naughton you will get.

Another fact: He played 2 games Against Geelong last year and over the eight quarters he kicked 1 goal. Generally he was in good form so did the Geelong game plan take him out of the equation? Will it this week?

Another interesting fact: Sweet played 5 games with Naughton. How many goals did Naughton kick in those games? 15.

Might playing Sweet this weekend allow us to see the good Naughton in action??

Can anyone ask ChatGPT?

[Danjul]

@danjul

First up I appreciate the level of detail you provide us and while I don't always agree with your conclusions I can't fault the effort.

Regarding Schache:
While I agree with you that we didn't make the most of Schache's talents we need to acknowledge that outside of Robert Murphy laconic types typically don't make it or thrive at our club under Bevo. With that in mind the onus is on the player to lift their intensity and I don't think Schache could meet that requirement.
He's been moved on and has had similar challenges impressing Melbourne and Brisbane before us.
I think it's time to put that club back in the bag and move on.

Regarding Lobb:
I've been underwhelmed with his current output but remain hopeful that he can turn it around. I don't think it helps his game to spend time up on the wing but that's just one of the quirks of playing with us. After kicking 38 goals for Fremantle last season we should be setting a higher standard from him but I do understand that sometimes we have to accept a slightly lower benchmark from a structure player.

Regarding O'Donnell:
We've had a decent look at him and I think most of us would agree that he's got a long way to go and that his inclusion made us top heavy against the Suns. We will know on Thursday if the club wants to continue with him in the seniors.

I only referred to Schache as an historical use of statistics and how they relate to how I and others view games. This was in response to a direct question. It also allowed me to use a more recent addition to make a comparative point. I assume he has done quite well from football and still is.

I could have used Young?s early games I suppose. I would have had the same conclusion and you might have had the same response.

[EasternWest]

Can anyone ask ChatGPT?

GG doesn't like when we call him that. He's a real boy.

[lemmon]

If you take Naughtons goals from his best 5 scoring games this season you arrive at a total of 15.

In 5 other games he scored 1 goal in each for a total of 5. You don?t know which Naughton you will get.

Another fact: He played 2 games Against Geelong last year and over the eight quarters he kicked 1 goal. Generally he was in good form so did the Geelong game plan take him out of the equation? Will it this week?

Another interesting fact: Sweet played 5 games with Naughton. How many goals did Naughton kick in those games? 15.

Might playing Sweet this weekend allow us to see the good Naughton in action??

Can anyone ask ChatGPT?

Sorry, I don't understand this point.

In Jeremy Cameron's best-scoring 5 games you have 25 goals (avg. 5 goals per game) and in the other 6 games he's played, he's kicked 11 goals (avg. 1.8 goals per game), which seems to be just as significant a swing as you've identified in Naughton's game.

If anything, I think we've seen that Naughton consistently hits the scoreboard but he rarely puts together a big bag - he hasn't managed to kick a bag of 5 this year and has only ever kicked 5+ goals in a game five times across his career.

I think we absolutely know what we get from Naughton - it's a contest, it's flying for high balls, it's good defensive effort and agility at ground-level, and it's contributing on the scoreboard in some manner - but he's never been a guy that's translated dominance to the scoreboard or been able to convert consistently.

[Grantysghost]

GG doesn't like when we call him that. He's a real boy.

Non sequitur.

[Danjul]

Sorry, I don't understand this point.

In Jeremy Cameron's best-scoring 5 games you have 25 goals (avg. 5 goals per game) and in the other 6 games he's played, he's kicked 11 goals (avg. 1.8 goals per game), which seems to be just as significant a swing as you've identified in Naughton's game.

If anything, I think we've seen that Naughton consistently hits the scoreboard but he rarely puts together a big bag - he hasn't managed to kick a bag of 5 this year and has only ever kicked 5+ goals in a game five times across his career.

I think we absolutely know what we get from Naughton - it's a contest, it's flying for high balls, it's good defensive effort and agility at ground-level, and it's contributing on the scoreboard in some manner - but he's never been a guy that's translated dominance to the scoreboard or been able to convert consistently.

Your paragraph 1.
This is true, he is a great goal scorer. He only needs a few minutes to change a game. On your data I would suggest that he is more influential.

but can we make him kick less? Maybe by putting Naughton on him. That?s what I would do. Who loses the most if neither score?

paragraphs 2 and 3

I agree here too. But what I was pointing out was he was consistent when Sweet was in the ruck. Maybe that is worth some investigating seeing he failed against Geelong last year and he has only kicked a goal in each of his last 3 games.

Last year Geelong got the jump on English in Melbourne and had 5 goals in the first quarter, that limited Naughtons opportunities if I am remembering correctly. Please check.

[Danjul]

Sorry, I don't understand this point.

In Jeremy Cameron's best-scoring 5 games you have 25 goals (avg. 5 goals per game) and in the other 6 games he's played, he's kicked 11 goals (avg. 1.8 goals per game), which seems to be just as significant a swing as you've identified in Naughton's game.

If anything, I think we've seen that Naughton consistently hits the scoreboard but he rarely puts together a big bag - he hasn't managed to kick a bag of 5 this year and has only ever kicked 5+ goals in a game five times across his career.

I think we absolutely know what we get from Naughton - it's a contest, it's flying for high balls, it's good defensive effort and agility at ground-level, and it's contributing on the scoreboard in some manner - but he's never been a guy that's translated dominance to the scoreboard or been able to convert consistently.
Sorry to bother you again but I just looked up what happened in Sweets four games the previous year.

Naughton kicked. 2. 4. 5. and 1 goal = 12 goals. Same average as last year, 3 per game.

So in the 9 games where Sweet rucked Naughton got 27 goals.

Interestingly, in that 1 goal game Sweet wasn?t given as much game time.

[soupman]

Your paragraph 1.

but can we make him kick less? Maybe by putting Naughton on him. That?s what I would do. Who loses the most if neither score?

Depends on how good a job we think any alternative can do.

Is the difference between Naughton playing on him vs say Gardner vast enough to cover the disruption to our forward setup? Naughton hasn't even played defence for years now, sure we expect him to be awesome but will he be? Maybe our forwardline will function better without him, but it's a huge gamble.

As always your argument for Sweet is very well researched, but I am unsure if correlation equals causation in this instance.

[Danjul]

Depends on how good a job we think any alternative can do.

Is the difference between Naughton playing on him vs say Gardner vast enough to cover the disruption to our forward setup? Naughton hasn't even played defence for years now, sure we expect him to be awesome but will he be? Maybe our forwardline will function better without him, but it's a huge gamble.

As always your argument for Sweet is very well researched, but I am unsure if correlation equals causation in this instance.

Ah, the tobacco industry rebuttal.

It could be a coincidence, but if there is anything in it the team and the club suffers. Should we all be carrying that guilt?

9 games for 27 goals. And he can?t get a game. Not worth testing?

Remember, I paid to see injured and unfit and unready players be selected and produce 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 possessions since this time last year. And people were happy and talked up all of those performances.

Sweets ruck work has been proven to bring an unusual synergy.

If we were thrilled with JOD having 4 possessions two weeks in a row maybe we could risk Sweet instead. Personally I would not expect much, after all, he has never had a development run like Arthur Jones, and look at how a little faith has worked there.

[Danjul]

Sweet is way off being an AFL ruckman at this stage
A bit Harsh.

I went to the Geelong game at Dockland last year. The one matching this one. I sat on the wing with a perfect view of the centre.

In the first quarter English was destroyed because Geelong used two ruckmen to work in tandem jumping into him. and Geelong put on 6 goals before we knew it.

We selected Khamis as the second ruck in a stunning brain-fade . He was giving away more than 10 cm and 10kg. How did he go? Exactly as expected. 2 kicks and 2 hitouts. Totally monstered out of the game.

The Dogs were by far the better team. But we got zero momentum from the ruck. And Geelongs ruck dominance helped Cameron kick 6.

And we worry about Sweet. We will accept anything from some players, there?s no lower limit.

I can think of other games we lost because we didn?t play Sweet as a potential plan B. And I only have to go back 5 days to get one.
.

[MrMahatma]

English is a different player this year

[soupman]

If we were thrilled with JOD having 4 possessions two weeks in a row maybe we could risk Sweet instead.

Fwiw no one is "thrilled" with Jods output thus far, and I doubt anyone is particularly strong on keeping him in the side, I mean there's barely been a post in this thread that hasn't dropped him.

Some are encouraged or excited by what he could be. But no one is raving about his 4 disposals (one of which was a horrifically over ambitious kuck into the corridor which cost us a goal late) as is being made out.

[bornadog]

In Treloar, Poulter

Out: McNeil and JOD

[Mofra]

In Treloar, Poulter

Out: McNeil and JOD
I'd be happy enough with this. That's a fair increase in our running ability

[Bulldog4life]

I'm not sure it's quite that simplistic.

Things have changed for sure. Jack Dyer used to say "ratbags to the backline."

[1eyedog]

I agree that stats have a context and need to be seen in the wide view of how the team is going. They also have to be viewed in terms of the position played and the competition for the role. But they give a summary that is independent of subjective opinions and cloudy memory.

The reason I quoted those particular numbers is I did not see the game. So I looked at the stats published on the AFL website to confirm the comment I had read. They allowed me to compare players, Bruce is experienced and reliable and lost his position in the firsts simply because of injury. The stats suggest that In terms of general play Sweet was comparable.

In terms of tackles 5 is good, people on Woof are saying that was an unacceptable aspect of the main game. They are certainly lacking in Lobbs games- he averages 1 per game.

Importantly, the stats are compiled by an independent observer and summary value uses a neutral algorithm. So without seeing the game I can have reasonable confidence that Sweet contributed more to his team than Moyle did. But they were close.

When people saw JOD get 4 possessions and claimed that he had a good game and deserved to be selected again, to get another 4, I don?t understand how they generate their conclusion. When Lobb joined us he got 5 possessions and people said that was an acceptable start. Lobb is averaging 9 possessions and 1 goal and people are thrilled.

To illustrate, When Schache came to the club he got 10 games averaging 15 possessions and 2 goals per game. At the start of the next season I sat behind the goals and saw him kick 4 match winning goals against Hawthorn (who were still a strong team). Two weeks later he was dropped for two months after his first poor game. What he had done for his team and its supporters was worth nothing. When he got back into the team he got another 10 games and averaged 2 goals and 14 possessions. What I saw at the games and in the statistics record were consistent. The collective stats seem to describe the game the way I see it. So I have faith in them.

By the way, people on Woof were already calling for Schache to be dropped when he was our most consistent and reliable goal kicker. I remember one comment said that he was being carried by a good team. But I also remember that he kicked 30% of the teams goals in his return game. For 20 games he maintained stats that were twice as good as Lobb is doing now. But his days were already numbered. So who is correct in judging performance, the one who has something measurable to assist them or those understand the game?

So back to your question. Nobody has ever explicitly stated what is contributing more to the team than disposals, marks, goals, tackles, metres gained, spoils and 1%ers. I am happy to hear what those things are. Please tell me. But don?t tell me that when Bruce got his third possession late in the game at Marvel last year he deserved to be selected because he had acted as a forward line general (yep, read it on woof). He was selected and got 2 the next week, and those 5 got him selected again.


I think Lobb is an asset and JOD will be very good, so none of what I wrote is criticism. I only refer to them for comparisons.

Good post.

I remember that Hawthorn game. Schache was on the end of an absolute Joe the Goose and Sicily gave away two free kicks resulting in two goals for Schache. So Schache only kicked one goal. Melbourne don't have a full forward. If Schache was any good he'd be playing.

Also, sorry to pick specific points and not provide a more overarching response, but no-one is thrilled with Lobb and I don't think anyone has been thrilled with his output from any one game this season. He's not giving us what we need and that's why he's been moved up the ground. To provide an option to help with our transitions.

[Danjul]

Good post.

I remember that Hawthorn game. Schache was on the end of an absolute Joe the Goose and Sicily gave away two free kicks resulting in two goals for Schache. So Schache only kicked one goal. Melbourne don't have a full forward. If Schache was any good he'd be playing.

Also, sorry to pick specific points and not provide a more overarching response, but no-one is thrilled with Lobb and I don't think anyone has been thrilled with his output from any one game this season. He's not giving us what we need and that's why he's been moved up the ground. To provide an option to help with our transitions.

So when Schache kicks 4 goals only one counts? Seems fair.

I can?t agree with your comment about Melbourne. They have more than enough forwards for their game plan. Somehow they have managed to kick 45 more goals than us this year.

With Gawn they are using Grundy the same way we are using Lobb. They can?t even find a way to get Jonathan Brown back into the team. And they are getting games into their young bloke van Rouen. the way we are with Arthur. He has kicked more goals than Lobb and JUH so he will not be dropped.

[Danjul]

English is a different player this year
He has been beaten in the ruck in recent games: Hawthorn, Carlton, Adelaide and Suns. He is still a fantastic player but watching the selection committee refusing to get the full benefit from his immense talent is quite tiresome.

[mjp]

We know this is about the team for the game in a couple of days right?

Can we start another thread about Josh Schache, his treatment (fair or otherwise) and his prospects for getting a gig with the Dees to another place?

I'm actually really interested in the thoughts of the posters above on selections for this weeks game vs Geelong. But - and I like Josh a lot as a person - I actually am not interested in him as a footballer anymore because he has moved on/been moved on - rightly or wrongly it no longers matters to me - from the FFC.

Thanks! :-)

[Grantysghost]

So are we thinking Poulter comes straight into JJ's spot? I know he's been more wing in the VFL, I just noticed that in his interview post draft he mentioned he is a half back/wing with good kicking skills and run and carry.

Sounds like JJ to me ! We probably missed that quick ball movement last week.

So im going :

In : Treloar, Poulter.
Out : McNeil, O'Donnell.

(McNeil to sub).

[hujsh]

In Treloar, Poulter

Out: McNeil and JOD


So are we thinking Poulter comes straight into JJ's spot? I know he's been more wing in the VFL, I just noticed that in his interview post draft he mentioned he is a half back/wing with good kicking skills and run and carry.

Sounds like JJ to me ! We probably missed that quick ball movement last week.

So im going :

In : Treloar, Poulter.
Out : McNeil, O'Donnell.

(McNeil to sub).

I think this is probably the board consensus. It'd be funny if this was the week we brought Cleary in though with the fake out of Poulter

[Rocco Jones]

We know this is about the team for the game in a couple of days right?

Can we start another thread about Josh Schache, his treatment (fair or otherwise) and his prospects for getting a gig with the Dees to another place?

I'm actually really interested in the thoughts of the posters above on selections for this weeks game vs Geelong. But - and I like Josh a lot as a person - I actually am not interested in him as a footballer anymore because he has moved on/been moved on - rightly or wrongly it no longers matters to me - from the FFC.

Thanks! :-)

I was about to say I am going to railroad the danjul Q&A with my team selection ideas.


In: Adz, Poulter
Out: McNeil, JOD

I think the sub should more tactical than about the actual individual. I'd prefer someone with speed. Back to McNeil or VDM (I know he hasn't shown much in VFL).

[Critter]

So are we thinking Poulter comes straight into JJ's spot? I know he's been more wing in the VFL, I just noticed that in his interview post draft he mentioned he is a half back/wing with good kicking skills and run and carry.

Sounds like JJ to me ! We probably missed that quick ball movement last week.

So im going :

In : Treloar, Poulter.
Out : McNeil, O'Donnell.

(McNeil to sub).

If selected, I think Poulter will play wing (which suits his run and long kicking) and Baker will take over the JJ role, which suits his speed, body strength and experience.

[Axe Man]

So are we thinking Poulter comes straight into JJ's spot? I know he's been more wing in the VFL, I just noticed that in his interview post draft he mentioned he is a half back/wing with good kicking skills and run and carry.

Sounds like JJ to me ! We probably missed that quick ball movement last week.

So im going :

In : Treloar, Poulter.
Out : McNeil, O'Donnell.

(McNeil to sub).

You feeling ok GG?

[Axe Man]

I was about to say I am going to railroad the danjul Q&A with my team selection ideas.


In: Adz, Poulter
Out: McNeil, JOD

I think the sub should more tactical than about the actual individual. I'd prefer someone with speed. Back to McNeil or VDM (I know he hasn't shown much in VFL).

The AFL site in the mix article this week has Vanders in the frame for what it's worth (probably not much), but we do like playing him when fit.


Luke Beveridge will spend time this week considering how his backline looks against Geelong on Saturday night. Alex Keath and Josh Bruce both played in the VFL game in Darwin and could be considered. The Dogs are looking for someone to replace the pace lost by Jason Johannisen. Laith Vandermeer has moved down back since recovering from injury and could return at Marvel Stadium after producing a strong showing against Gold Coast's reserves. Toby McLean amassed 30 touches in that game but has been on the outer. Rhylee West collected 23 touches and a goal, while Hayden Crozier finished with 22 disposals at TIO Stadium. Adam Treloar is set to return after missing the past three games due to a hamstring strain.

[Grantysghost]

I was about to say I am going to railroad the danjul Q&A with my team selection ideas.


In: Adz, Poulter
Out: McNeil, JOD

I think the sub should more tactical than about the actual individual. I'd prefer someone with speed. Back to McNeil or VDM (I know he hasn't shown much in VFL).

Man great minds Rocco !!

[The Underdog]

The AFL site in the mix article this week has Vanders in the frame for what it's worth (probably not much), but we do like playing him when fit.

You’d think he’d be ahead of Poulter if we wanted to bring in some run, but considering the early elevations of Gardner and JOD after selection you just don’t know what the MC is thinking. We are already missing JJ’s pace and run. Unfortunately neither of these guys give us his ball use.

[Rocco Jones]

I like Baker to HBF (might change mind 2 minutes into this happening). Poulter to the wing. Him and Truck give us marking options there too. Assuming Poulter has the tank to run out an AFL game on a wing. VDM or McNeil to offer pace as sub as I think guys like West, McLean, Hannan are going to do next to nothing anything, might as well try to get some type of value.

[hujsh]

If we're moving a winger to HBF Williams makes more sense. Has Baker ever played HBF? Do we want a repeat of Hannan?

[mjp]

We have two wingers playing well.

Why are we moving them? All we are doing is making two positions worse.

[Mofra]

I like Baker to HBF (might change mind 2 minutes into this happening). Poulter to the wing. Him and Truck give us marking options there too. Assuming Poulter has the tank to run out an AFL game on a wing. VDM or McNeil to offer pace as sub as I think guys like West, McLean, Hannan are going to do next to nothing anything, might as well try to get some type of value.
One thing I haven't seen Poulter do well is use any height advantage he has.
He's closer to Cheesy Barlow than Isaac Smith like that.

[Rocco Jones]

If we're moving a winger to HBF Williams makes more sense. Has Baker ever played HBF? Do we want a repeat of Hannan?

Baker played HBF as a 18/19 yo in NEAFL. Truck I think is playing career best/most valuable footy on the wing. I think he gets panicky when he has to/tries to carry the ball down back. Baker I think is the better option in terms of replacing JJ's line breaking.


We have two wingers playing well.

Why are we moving them? All we are doing is making two positions worse.

I hear you but are we making two positions worse? What do we do with "JJ's spot"? Do we just give up on replacing the speed and going with another guy who can kick it well? Do we use Poulter?

I guess you are saying it's robbing Peter and Paul. With Baker, I'd do it if we end up being able to pay Paul more than we rob Peter.

[Rocco Jones]

One thing I haven't seen Poulter do well is use any height advantage he has.
He's closer to Cheesy Barlow than Isaac Smith like that.

Yep, I have kinda fallen into what I am against, height doesn't auto making you a marking target/immobile et al. I think he is able to at least contest decently rather than specifically be a hit up. More of a nullifying a marking contest type than confidently going to him.

[lemmon]

Baker played HBF as a 18/19 yo in NEAFL. Truck I think is playing career best/most valuable footy on the wing. I think he gets panicky when he has to/tries to carry the ball down back. Baker I think is the better option in terms of replacing JJ's line breaking.


I'm also in the make the least disruptive decision camp.

I know they aren't 'pacey', but we have two more than serviceable options in Crozier and Clearly plugging away at half back for Footscray, and Laith who has spent time down back and does bring line-breaking speed.

For mine, I don't think it's a decision we need to be too clever about. We've lost a small half-back, bring the next one in that we think is closest to senior selection. We have Ed Richards and Bailey Dale down there as very good line-breaking options (either by foot or leg), Cleary is very neat by foot and Crozier isn't a liability with ball in hand either.

JJ's defensive game has been pretty underrated - I don't think he's really been allowed to run around without having responsibility for someone. We have no idea what Baker's defensive capabilities are like, and I doubt he's spent any time with the defensive group in his time at the club.

I haven't watched any of Footscray this year, but does Poulter's form warrant a re-shuffle to fit him onto a wing? The numbers don't look that way

[mjp]

I don't think it's a decision we need to be too clever about. We've lost a small half-back, bring the next one in that we think is closest to senior selection.

What a great idea! You don't need to get three players to change roles to cover one injury. Leave the wingers alone. Bring in a half-back and if you want to set up a match-day contingency plan whereby if we weren't getting what we 'wanted' (whatever that might be) then go for it.

[1eyedog]

What a great idea! You don't need to get three players to change roles to cover one injury. Leave the wingers alone. Bring in a half-back and if you want to set up a match-day contingency plan whereby if we weren't getting what we 'wanted' (whatever that might be) then go for it.

This isn't Bevo's style.

Anyway there is only talk of one positional change, Baker to half back and potentially Poulter to a wing. I'm not sold on it either way. Baker has been okish on a wing I suppose but I'm not sure we'd be giving up a lot if we tried something different.

Truck I definately don't want moved.

I'd try VDM off half back before bringing in Poulter or moving Baker. Problem is we've been developing him as a forward for two years now.

[mjp]

This isn't Bevo's style.



You don't think Bevo has match day plans?

I continue to think Bevo is excellent...the left field selections every Thursday can be bamboozling but that's all part of it!

[1eyedog]

You don't think Bevo has match day plans?

I continue to think Bevo is excellent...the left field selections every Thursday can be bamboozling but that's all part of it!

I agree he's excellent. My feel is he works it all out during the week and largely sticks to it and backs his players in.

But that's just my feel and it is partly based on hearing him say just that i.e. the focus in the coaches box is backing in the system and players.

Does he move the magnets much? Maybe I'm reading into a lack of game day changes too much.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Treloar in, McNeil and Hannan out.

No Dangerfield but Rohan is back to ass a goal from the boundary.

[GVGjr]

Treloar in, McNeil and Hannan out.

No Dangerfield but Rohan is back to ass a goal from the boundary.

It's puzzling to know why we are sticking with O'Donnell each week regardless of his form but other than that it was a predictable selection.

[Axe Man]

They are missing Danger, Cam Guthrie, Duncan, Holmes from their midfield vs ours at full strength. No excuses

[JanLorMill]

O?Donnell playing again is taking the piss now

[bulldogtragic]

It's puzzling to know why we are sticking with O'Donnell each week regardless of his form but other than that it was a predictable selection.

I don’t get it. We are carrying him, but surely at some point (like this week) you say ‘that’s great experience now, now dominate the VFL and put into practice everything you’ve learnt’. Surely a handful of touches is not a month run of games.

I like his future prospects, but not sure how it’s best for the 22 or him at this stage. Maybe this is his breakout game maybe perhaps dunno ok sure, you never know.?

[JanLorMill]

Drop OBrien then. 4 tall back is at least 1 too many

[angelopetraglia]

They are missing Danger, Cam Guthrie, Duncan, Holmes from their midfield vs ours at full strength. No excuses

Compared to when we played them last year, you can also add Selwood to that list.

[1eyedog]

JOD has played in Ballarat and Darwin, not ideal conditions either for a young tall. See how he goes at Marvel in controlled conditions under the roof.

One game, two games we're not going to learn very much. I understand why we're having a good look but agree if we see more of the same from him this week he has to go back.

[angelopetraglia]

When we played Geelong last time.

Contested possessions. Bolded = not playing

Guthrie 16
Ceglar 11
Danger 10
Selwood 9
Smith 7
Cameron 7
Blicavs 7
Stengle 6
Atkins 6
Miers 5
Kolodjashnij 5
Homes 5
Duncan 3

Clearances. Bolded = not playing.

Danger 7
Guthrie 6
Selwood 4
Ceglar 4
Stengle 2
Duncan 2

[JanLorMill]

JOD has played in Ballarat and Darwin, not ideal conditions either for a young tall. See how he goes at Marvel in controlled conditions under the roof.

One game, two games we're not going to learn very much. I understand why we're having a good look but agree if we see more of the same from him this week he has to go back.
he played vs Carlton at marvel

[GVGjr]

They are missing Danger, Cam Guthrie, Duncan, Holmes from their midfield vs ours at full strength. No excuses

Yep, it should give us an edge especially given they aren't playing that well.

[josie]

I might be mad but regarding JoD, I’m more worried about Gardner or O’Brien on Cameron or Hawkins (whichever one Jones doesn’t play on).

If we do not win this and by a fair margin I think we aren’t going to make top 4 or make it to a prelim this year.

Go Dogs!!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's puzzling to know why we are sticking with O'Donnell each week regardless of his form but other than that it was a predictable selection.

Suspect we send him to Stewart who has routinely carved us up.

[angelopetraglia]

I might be mad but regarding JoD, I’m more worried about Gardner or O’Brien on Cameron or Hawkins (whichever one Jones doesn’t play on).

If we do not win this and by a fair margin I think we aren’t going to make top 4 or make it to a prelim this year.

Go Dogs!!

Agree. If we can't win this game. We are making up the numbers.

[GVGjr]

I don’t get it. We are carrying him, but surely at some point (like this week) you say ‘that’s great experience now, now dominate the VFL and put into practice everything you’ve learnt’. Surely a handful of touches is not a month run of games.

I like his future prospects, but not sure how it’s best for the 22 or him at this stage. Maybe this is his breakout game maybe perhaps dunno ok sure, you never know.?

I'm really buoyed by the way we identified his talent and worked the system to bring him to the club in the manner we did.
I wonder if we aren't really helping his development by playing him in the seniors though rather than at Footscray though where he would almost be certainly be getting more touches of the footy and having a more clearly defined role.

[kruder]

I might be mad but regarding JoD, I’m more worried about Gardner or O’Brien on Cameron or Hawkins (whichever one Jones doesn’t play on).

If we do not win this and by a fair margin I think we aren’t going to make top 4 or make it to a prelim this year.

Go Dogs!!


We should be winning the next 2 if we are top 4 Josie agree we have no excuses.

[GVGjr]

I might be mad but regarding JoD, I’m more worried about Gardner or O’Brien on Cameron or Hawkins (whichever one Jones doesn’t play on).

If we do not win this and by a fair margin I think we aren’t going to make top 4 or make it to a prelim this year.

Go Dogs!!

I don't think we can replace Gardner or O'Brien with better players though but I do think we can strengthen the side if we had replaced O'Donnell.

[Hotdog60]

Who JOD matched up against if it was Casbolt it was break even.

[lemmon]

Who JOD matched up against if it was Casbolt it was break even.

I thought Gardiner went to Casboult most of the night with O'Brien on Lukosius.

[D Mitchell]

I haven't seen a live game since 29 April so this post is in ignorance of what's currently happening on field. Pre 29 April, losses weren't the fault of the much maligned defence, games were lost in the forward line with the midfield not too far behind. Macrae, Naughton, Daniel, Weightman (2023 version), Ugle-Hagan and Lobb neither keep the ball in nor pressure the opposition defence once it gains possession. Naughton's good when the ball's in dispute, as is Macrae, and he does harass but otherwise none of the rest of them chase. The mids are good in close but once the ball gets out and into the hands of the opposition, Libber excepted, it's jog time, Smith and Williams included. The way the ball goes into the opposition forward line, under minimal pressure, presents a nightmare for intercept, zone defenders. If I was Bev, I'd have had Lobb, Ugle-Hagan, Smith, Williams playing in the full back line in the VFL, with Weightman to join them as soon as he was fit, after round 3 (Presciently, I'd have made sure that Ugle-Hagan played as a forward in round 3) until they got the message. I might be only an internet poster but Bev's only coached 1 more AFL premiership than me. I'm looking forward to seeing O'Donnell play on Saturday night. Just quietly, I think Bev kept him in the side just for me.

[EasternWest]

I haven't seen a live game since 29 April so not only really looking forward to it but this post is in ignorance of what's currently happening on field. Pre 29 April, losses weren't the fault of the much maligned defence, games were lost in the forward line with the midfield not too far behind them. Macrae, Naughton, Daniel, Weightman (2023 version), Ugle-Hagan and Lobb neither keep the ball in nor pressure the opposition defence once it gains possession. Naughton's good when the ball's in dispute, as is Macrae, and he does harass but otherwise none of the rest of them chase. The mids are good in close but once the ball gets out and into the hands of the opposition, Libber excepted, it's jog time, Smith and Williams included. The way the ball goes into the opposition forward line, under minimal pressure, presents a nightmare for intercept, zoned defenders. If I was Bev, I'd have had Lobb, Ugle-Hagan, Smith, Williams playing in the full back line in the VFL, with Weightman to join them as soon as he was fit, after round 3 (Presciently, I'd have made sure that Ugle-Hagan played as a forward in round 3) until they got the message. I'm looking forward to seeing O'Donnell play on Saturday night. Just quietly, I think Bev kept him in the side just for me.

Agree with most of this (especially the JOD part ha ha) but think you're a bit harsh on Marra. I think his forward line pressure is ok.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

One thing I haven't seen Poulter do well is use any height advantage he has.
He's closer to Cheesy Barlow than Isaac Smith like that.

Or Everett.

[D Mitchell]

Agree with most of this (especially the JOD part ha ha) but think you're a bit harsh on Marra. I think his forward line pressure is ok.

Thankyou, EW. There's a difference between when the ball's in dispute, cynically, I observe that the closer to goal, the more desperate our forwards become, and when the ball's on the way out. The former, Naughton's brilliant at it, yields the occasional goal but the latter = defenders waltzing out of forward 50, under no pressure and able to place the ball to advantage. Watch for it on Saturday night.

PS You are quick off the mark, I added a sentence to my O'Donnell part whilst you were posting.

[macca]

Thankyou, EW. There's a difference between when the ball's in dispute, cynically, I observe that the closer to goal, the more desperate our forwards become, and when the ball's on the way out. The former, Naughton's brilliant at it, yields the occasional goal but the latter = defenders waltzing out of forward 50, under no pressure and able to place the ball to advantage. Watch for it on Saturday night.

What we massively miss in our forward craft is bringing the ball to ground to advantage. If you want a great example, it was in round 7, when Dixon tapped the ball to Rioli's advantaged and he managed to goal. Dixon knew he was out of position and was smart enough to put the ball in Rioli's area. I don't really see that in the games we play. All the forwards fly for the mark and they get into each other's way. I watched the footage again and Dixon was just so smart, he knew he was going to be double teamed so Rioli's player would be free!

There was a footage last week of Naughton flying for the mark and Weightman stopping himself as he saw Naughton already up there, he should have been waiting at the foot of the pack. It was very frustrating to watch, as the first thing came to my mind was NO crumbing prescence. Weightman was not even in position!

@3.42 mins Port vs St kilda ( choked) r7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1qs2TC6Sc

[D Mitchell]

What we massively miss in our forward craft is bringing the ball to ground to advantage. If you want a great example, it was in round 7, when Dixon tapped the ball to Rioli's advantaged and he managed to goal. Dixon knew he was out of position and was smart enough to put the ball in Rioli's area. I don't really see that in the games we play. All the forwards fly for the mark and they get into each other's way. I watched the footage again and Dixon was just so smart, he knew he was going to be double teamed so Rioli's player would be free!

There was a footage last week of Naughton flying for the mark and Weightman stopping himself as he saw Naughton already up there, he should have been waiting at the foot of the pack. It was very frustrating to watch, as the first thing came to my mind was NO crumbing prescence. Weightman was not even in position!

@3.42 mins Port vs St kilda ( choked) r7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1qs2TC6Sc

Spot on. Not only that, all of the 3 talls plus Weightman, want to take the big run from behind and the speccie, none take up the, albeit vulnerable, position in front and until Jones, no front and centre. Naughton, Lobb and Ugle-Hagan all have different capacities and inclinations, Naughton the high flying target, Ugle-Hagan the agile lead, Lobb the high ball option. That's not how they play. But my main criticism is that the 3 of them don't/won't chase.

[D Mitchell]

W...
@3.42 mins Port vs St kilda ( choked) r7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1qs2TC6Sc

Thankyou for that link. It reminds me that AFL players do what human being's bodies aren't designed to do. I recall 'Billy' Kolyniuk running, flat out, towards the Members Wing at the WO all those years ago. Billy was running with the flight of the ball looking over his shoulders and upwards. From the waist down, like an Olympics 100 metre dash participant, in a straight line., flat out Above his waist, revolving side to side to watch the ball. I tried it, fell over within 10 metres. These blokes are supermen.

[Mantis]

I thought Gardiner went to Casboult most of the night with O'Brien on Lukosius.

This is not correct.. kicked his last 3 on Gardner.

[bornadog]

This is not correct.. kicked his last 3 on Gardner.

I am hot and cold on Gardner. I have my doubts.

[FrediKanoute]

I am hot and cold on Gardner. I have my doubts.

Think he is one dimensional

[josie]

Think he is one dimensional

Doesn’t mark it enough for mine and has a habit of punching ball to oppo benefit. I put him in category of an honest trier.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Think he is one dimensional

Still finding feet this season.
Hopefully improves with the season.

[Rocco Jones]

I am hot and cold on Gardner. I have my doubts.

I think Gardner is like most ok-ish KPDs. He looks good/bad depending largely on how strong the defensive structure around him is. It fell apart vs Suns and he was exposed. Gardy is 'honest' and he will do his thing as part of a sound team defence. He can't really mark, he can panic but he also is able to get on his bike and run all game. Keath and Bruce are more able to mark but are both clunky. TOB can kick and intercept but isn't able to play on bigger guys and makes critical errors. Busslinger looks good but is raw, which is fine as he is a first year player.

I feel like our 2nd best KPD is pretty equal to our 6th best. I don't mind Gardy as if things aren't working, the other guys aren't saving us anyway. I think there's a spot for Bruce replacing Gardner though if he can show a bit more with foot skills.