Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

[Rocco Jones]

OK a little bit jokes but I am mainly starting this thread so the weekly MC isn't so bogged down in one discussion. Gary please delete if you see fit.

Why is Sweet an elite AFL tap ruckman? What to do with English after we prioritise Sweet's role? Why Sweet is the difference between us underperforming and becoming unbeatable?

Whilst I am kinda taking the piss, I truly believe this thread is 'needed'.

[Rocco Jones]

I say no as most AFL ruckmen are better than the top up rucks he comes up again a lot of the time in VFL. Also, not as simple as a lot of Sweethearts (Sweet fans. Maybe Sweet Tooths?) make out to simple have English roaming around the ground and dominating. Chasing around/play a mid role much harder than running around with a ruck and a different role to even a high KPF. I get it if you want Sweets hitout work but you are simply not going to be able to get English's around the ground work as well.

[hujsh]

We could elevate him but that AFL might consider that cheating

[Rocco Jones]

We could elevate him but that AFL might consider that cheating

Clearly AFL counts Sweet as two players in CBAs.

[MrMahatma]

Just him in the centre square. We can deploy Bont, Libba, and Ads elsewhere. Sweety will make the opposition retreaty.

[Grantysghost]

He's got the opposite skill set to English almost. It's like they had their DNA separated and placed into two Neanderthals Prof. Frankenstein style.

Sweet is a good body player, however that alone just doesn't cut it anymore and until he gets better around the ground he will always be the backup.

[EasternWest]

OK a little bit jokes but I am mainly starting this thread so the weekly MC isn't so bogged down in one discussion. Gary please delete if you see fit.

Why is Sweet an elite AFL tap ruckman? What to do with English after we prioritise Sweet's role? Why Sweet is the difference between us underperforming and becoming unbeatable?

Whilst I am kinda taking the piss, I truly believe this thread is 'needed'.

Never mind this I wanna know how we can get Schache, Lipinski and Young back.

[hujsh]

He's got the opposite skill set to English almost. It's like they had their DNA separated and placed into two Neanderthals Prof. Frankenstein style.

Sweet is a good body player, however that alone just doesn't cut it anymore and until he gets better around the ground he will always be the backup.

Under the Les Enfants Terribles program the Patriots devised a plan to clone Big Boss, the greatest ruck of all time. Sweet got all of his dominant genes, and English the recessive ones

[Danjul]

Never mind this I wanna know how we can get Schache, Lipinski and Young back.
Correct me if I?m wrong but at least two of them were in the group that gave us some final wins less than 2 years ago.

Now we will go to the footy to see if someone can get less than 0 touches of the ball. I am confident that we will find a way of achieving new depths.

personally I preferred the 2021 game plan.

[Rocco Jones]

Correct me if I?m wrong but at least two of them were in the group that gave us some final wins less than 2 years ago.

Now we will go to the footy to see if someone can get less than 0 touches of the ball. I am confident that we will find a way of achieving new depths.

personally I preferred the 2021 game plan.

May I ask why you are comparing disposals for a forward pocket and a ruck? (I think Arty shouldn't play in the seniors this week btw).

[Danjul]

He's got the opposite skill set to English almost. It's like they had their DNA separated and placed into two Neanderthals Prof. Frankenstein style.

Sweet is a good body player, however that alone just doesn't cut it anymore and until he gets better around the ground he will always be the backup.

Exactly correct. But he should be a backup in the 22 so we can execute Plan B when necessary.

Getting no touches around the ground would be no worse than Arty and still better than JOD gifting 2 goals.

[meenies]

Was it Rocket who had Minson at centre bounces as the ruck rover a few times?

Maybe Sweet ruck and English as RR. Why not?

[Rocco Jones]

Exactly correct. But he should be a backup in the 22 so we can execute Plan B when necessary.

Getting no touches around the ground would be no worse than Arty and still better than JOD gifting 2 goals.

Thing is Arty and JOD play peripheral roles. Sweet in the ruck means we lose out on Sweet generally owning rucks around the ground. The notion we can get both with English as a mid, it'll be a massive difference having English opposed to a lumbering ruck vs expectations as a mid.

FWIW definitely do not want JOD and Arty in the 22.

[Grantysghost]

We should've traded Sweet and kept Lipinski.

Reply with :) for yes or :mad: for no.

[Grantysghost]

We should've traded Sweet and kept Lipinski.

Reply with :) for yes or :mad: for no.

:) :)

[Rocco Jones]

We should've traded Sweet and kept Lipinski.

Reply with :) for yes or :mad: for no.

Being OG of this thread feels like being producer for Big Bang Theory and the like.

[Rocco Jones]

Being OG of this thread feels like being producer for Big Bang Theory and the like.

Big Bang Theory also fits belief that Sweet will own it in the ruck.

[Scraggers]

Straight answer is no. We have the best ruck (according to all current AA teams) in the league. Whilst English is healthy, Sweet gets paid well to play VFL. The whole idea of Lobb coming to us was to take the odd bounce or around the ground. Sweet cannot play that role and therefore stays in VFL. English's mobility around the ground and ability below his knees is the reason he is ranked number one in the league right now. Why would you replace the number one ruck?

[Grantysghost]

Being OG of this thread feels like being producer for Big Bang Theory and the like.

Control your threads man!

If you think Rocco should control his threads better reply :

:mad: for yes or :confused: for I don't know where I am.

[Grantysghost]

Control your threads man!

If you think Rocco should control his threads better reply :

:mad: for yes or :confused: for I don't know where I am.

:mad:

[Rocco Jones]

Anyone that posts about Sweet in the MC thread will get my wrath. Via internalised angst. That lasts a few seconds and I don't do anything directly about it. But perhaps unconsciously or subconsciously find an outlet. Off to google about behavioural psychology.

[Rocco Jones]

Also, this is a safe house for those wanting to railroad threads with Lipsinki and/or Lewy Young and/or Jordan Roughead and/or Jackson Trengove and/or Shane Ellen angst/content. But I will set a cap of 20% daily posts about them in this thread.

[Grantysghost]

Also, this is a safe house for those wanting to railroad threads with Lipsinki and/or Lewy Young and/or Jordan Roughead and/or Jackson Trengove and/or Shane Ellen angst/content. But I will set a cap of 20% daily posts about them in this thread.

I went to the same school as Shane Ellen. Think I played in a school team with him.

How did he kick 5 in a GF!

[Rocco Jones]

I went to the same school as Shane Ellen. Think I played in a school team with him.

How did he kick 5 in a GF!

A wizard did it.

[EasternWest]

Correct me if I?m wrong but at least two of them were in the group that gave us some final wins less than 2 years ago.

Now we will go to the footy to see if someone can get less than 0 touches of the ball. I am confident that we will find a way of achieving new depths.

personally I preferred the 2021 game plan.

Did someone say Beetlejuice?

Just ragging you mate I always appreciate reading your thoughts.


Anyone that posts about Sweet in the MC thread will get my wrath. Via internalised angst. That lasts a few seconds and I don't do anything directly about it. But perhaps unconsciously or subconsciously find an outlet. Off to google about behavioural psychology.

This is how I deal with everything in life and why do I yell at my kids so much.

In relation to the OP, I don't know. I think Sweet's been on our list long enough now I would've thought and hoped if he had a real future at the pointy end we'd have seen more of him by now.

[bulldogtragic]

Lou Interligi.

[Danjul]

May I ask why you are comparing disposals for a forward pocket and a ruck? (I think Arty shouldn't play in the seniors this week btw).

Remember, we lost against Port because they got 4 goals from centre clearances and we did not. So the lack of a backup ruckman, who offers some flexibility where we are losing games, is because a seat on the bench is occupied by people who have (generally speaking) been non-contributors.

So zero is zero, and we have selected sides where that has been highly probable.

Arty was terrible against Geelong and should not have been in the side against Port. That was always relevant to selections in the past. Upon what determinants are we selecting teams these days?

JOD first game. 4 touches so selected again for 4 more.

Last year, Bruce 2 touches so selected again for 3 more.

Game 1 this year Lobb hardly got near the ball. Excuse? Oh he was injured? Translation : you should not have expected anything. Well I certainly did not expect the massacre that set our percentage back for half a season.

We have an easy draw ahead and should try to get maximum benefit by examining all aspects of our performances and putting in flexibility to allow improvement. If Sweet gets beaten in the ruck and English takes a load off Naughton and they both kicks
multiple goals repeatedly (like in 2021) we are still better than we are now.

And English will still have plenty of ruck work and I expect his around the ground work to remain fantastic.

Nobody is talking about replacing him, one side of the discussion is about assisting him and the team. The other seems to think he is to be banished. An exaggerated response.

So the only decision that needs to be made is whose selection is keeping Sweet out, (and what have they contributed in their multiple consecutive games and our consecutive losses), and if it is zero we should . . . .?

This week should be a massive win even if 10 players don?t touch the ball. So I expect no change.

[Danjul]

Straight answer is no. We have the best ruck (according to all current AA teams) in the league. Whilst English is healthy, Sweet gets paid well to play VFL. The whole idea of Lobb coming to us was to take the odd bounce or around the ground. Sweet cannot play that role and therefore stays in VFL. English's mobility around the ground and ability below his knees is the reason he is ranked number one in the league right now. Why would you replace the number one ruck?
English can stay number 1 ruck and Sweet can sit on the bench for 100% of the game if everything is going smoothly. Everyone is happy.

ie, no change.

But if English is not winning there is potential for adapting.

But English is AA. Never beaten in the ruck. Good, but he was beaten in the first quarter against Hawthorn. A screen alerted spectators to the fact that the Hawks had 7:1 centre clearances.

I saw him struggle against Carlton, Suns and Port also, so in those games Sweet would have gotten a few minutes.

[Mantis]

Remember, we lost against Port because they got 4 goals from centre clearances and we did not. So the lack of a backup ruckman, who offers some flexibility where we are losing games, is because a seat on the bench is occupied by people who have (generally speaking) been non-contributors.


Look I don't agree with this summation, but if it is true shouldn't we be changing up our midfielders rather than the ruckman?

To me it seemed that when Port won the centre clearance they ran the ball out which led to some clean F50 entries, whereas when we won the clearance we hack kicked it forward to a contest.

Surely it's on the mids to:

1/ defend their opponents better when they're in possession.
2/ use the ball better when we have possession.

[Danjul]

Also, this is a safe house for those wanting to railroad threads with Lipsinki and/or Lewy Young and/or Jordan Roughead and/or Jackson Trengove and/or Shane Ellen angst/content. But I will set a cap of 20% daily posts about them in this thread.
Becoming quite a list.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Surely it's on the mids to:

1/ defend their opponents better when they're in possession.
2/ use the ball better when we have possession.

Agree with this, but we shouldn't underplay the disadvantage of playing reactive football.

The truth is we can never be proactive with English as the ruck. Even if he wins the tap, it's rarely emphatic / allows us to exit from the front of the contest.

I maintain English is a good player but a poor ruck. 'Best ruck in the league' is laughable.

[Rocco Jones]

Danjul, do you believe the around the ground work English does against fellow ruckmen will be basically replicated to equal value if he is up against mids or playing forward?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I know this thread is a piss take, which I'm not sure achieves much besides belittling other opinions, but for mine a real question is would we be a better side with Sweet/English than English/Lobb?

The criticisms that Sweet doesn't mark/offers little around the ground are valid, but Lobb is no better in that regard. Lobb is the better forward out of these two, but would we get more from English in that second ruck role than we do Lobb? Would the net benefit of Sweet/English make us better?

[Danjul]

Look I don't agree with this summation, but if it is true shouldn't we be changing up our midfielders rather than the ruckman?

To me it seemed that when Port won the centre clearance they ran the ball out which led to some clean F50 entries, whereas when we won the clearance we hack kicked it forward to a contest.

Surely it's on the mids to:

1/ defend their opponents better when they're in possession.
2/ use the ball better when we have possession.

The fist step should be make the simplest change. Look at what happens. Then make the next adjustment.

We are not losing because of the midfielders.

As I said a few weeks ago, Naughton was consistent when Sweet played. 27 goals in 9 games. In 9 games this year he has scored only 1 in each. Lobb?s presence has not helped. So if we find something that works there could be a broader upside, including me not having to look at train loads of depressed supporters after games.

[Rocco Jones]

I know this thread is a piss take, which I'm not sure achieves much besides belittling other opinions, but for mine a real question is would we be a better side with Sweet/English than English/Lobb?

The criticisms that Sweet doesn't mark/offers little around the ground are valid, but Lobb is no better in that regard. Lobb is the better forward out of these two, but would we get more from English in that second ruck role than we do Lobb? Would the net benefit of Sweet/English make us better?

I am joking in part but at collectively how much Sweet is dominating the MC discussion. No pro or anti Sweet, just that he is literally taking up 80%+ of the posting there. It's comical (not attacking anyone, I legit find it funny, otherwise I would be frustrated).

[Rocco Jones]

Agree with this, but we shouldn't underplay the disadvantage of playing reactive football.

The truth is we can never be proactive with English as the ruck. Even if he wins the tap, it's rarely emphatic / allows us to exit from the front of the contest.

I maintain English is a good player but a poor ruck. 'Best ruck in the league' is laughable.

You mention belittling others, I would probably avoid calling the opposing opinion 'laughable'. I know not your intention.

English has the 5th most hit outs to advantage this season + looks the best around the ground ruck in the league. I get you like Sweet, but finding the opinion that he is the best ruck 'laughable' is a bit much IMO. FWIW I don't think he is the best ruck in the AFL.

[Rocco Jones]

The fist step should be make the simplest change. Look at what happens. Then make the next adjustment.

We are not losing because of the midfielders.

As I said a few weeks ago, Naughton was consistent when Sweet played. 27 goals in 9 games. In 9 games this year he has scored only 1 in each. Lobb?s presence has not helped. So if we find something that works there could be a broader upside, including me not having to look at train loads of depressed supporters after games.

Why not?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You mention belittling others, I would probably avoid calling the opposing opinion 'laughable'. I know not your intention.

It had been stated in the media a few times lately which is what I had in mind when writing that line.


English has the 5th most hit outs to advantage this season + looks the best around the ground ruck in the league. I get you like Sweet, but finding the opinion that he is the best ruck 'laughable' is a bit much IMO. FWIW I don't think he is the best ruck in the AFL.

Stats shmats. Do you really believe he's the 5th best tap ruck in the league? When I think of the best rucks who could hurt teams with where they put the ball, it's the likes of Gawn, Naitanui and Witts. Others have shown capabilities (Jackson - we know too well, Grundy - but not his main weapon, Big O).

No disputing his around the ground ability (English), but when that's curbed (v Port) he's offering nothing. Most other rucks (even much less talented ones like Nank) can still influence the game as a ruck without doing a whole lot around the ground. Tim can't.

Also - not sure I've ever been a vocal 'Sweet promoter' but I don't buy into the piss take of this thread either.

[Danjul]

Danjul, do you believe the around the ground work English does against fellow ruckmen will be basically replicated to equal value if he is up against mids or playing forward?
To my way of thinking we need a revolutionary approach to fix the current state of affairs.

I would restrict Sweet to moving between CHF and CHB and then going to ruck contests from there.

English can follow the ball more closely. He has excellent footy smarts and reads the play better than most. And he has a big tank.

This would put significant pressure on the opposition. He would take some ruck contests but I would be trying to conserve his energy to maximise his game time.

The expected benefits of playing both like this would be

more direct moves by the midfielders, leading to
faster clean entries and better kicking positions for the forwards,
less chance of direct entries against our backmen.

I would be hoping for higher scores for and lower against.

How long should the trial last? Couple of hours.

Can I guarantee its success? No.

So why suggest it? Because I saw it work a number of times in 2021/2022 with the same players.

[Danjul]

Why not?
Look at their possessions and clearances. Only problem is that they are heading in the wrong direction when they get the ball.

[Rocco Jones]

Look at their possessions and clearances. Only problem is that they are heading in the wrong direction when they get the ball.

So possessions and clearances = meaning
5th highest hitouts to advantage= not meaning?

I am trying to get bearings of which stats are meaningful and which ones are 'stats shmats' (The Bulldogs Bite).

[Rocco Jones]

FWIW, whilst I don't agree with it, I would be fine with seeing Sweet having a go as first ruck. I am not 100% against it.

[GVGjr]

I'm happy for a somewhat contentious topic be isolated to one thread giving those who find the topic repetitive a chance to ignore it.

As always be civil to each other, debate the topic with some logic and most importantly play the ball not the man :)

[The bulldog tragician]

One of the things this thread shows and something Danjul has argued is that selection integrity is lacking. Or at best obscure.

We can question why a low possession bash and crash ruckman (that?s Sweet) can be ?carried? in the side yet regularly we see low possession guys selected to ?fill a role? eg Bruce late 22 (he?s taking pressure off Naughton!), Hannan ( he?s a defensive forward!), Lobb (he gives English a rest!), James O?Donnell (not even sure what the pretext is there).

I don?t necessarily agree with the conclusions reached in correlating Sweet?s presence with our wins but if we are only arguing against his selection by saying he gives us little around the ground, well, that?s hard to validate given what we see most weeks.

Sadly the argument might be moot if Lobb was delivering. But he?s not and is becoming at risk of becoming a member of the Graveyard of Tall Forwards in which we?ve often specialised. In fact you have to wonder if he is Exhibit A in demonstrating that it?s not our forwards, it?s delivery to our forwards that?s the problem.

[Danjul]

So possessions and clearances = meaning
5th highest hitouts to advantage= not meaning?

I am trying to get bearings of which stats are meaningful and which ones are 'stats shmats' (The Bulldogs Bite).

Two main reasons for the loss to Port:

i. (Forwards poor kicking) and not getting the ball to Naughton properly.
ii. Port got 4 goals from centre clearances and we got 0.

Most likely component of the game influencing both? Centre bounce. How many are there in a game? 25 approx.

Change 4, 2 for us and 2 against them. We win.

And that is with Richards and JJ out.

[jeemak]

Are we arguing that Sweet, who doesn't often win hit outs, will turn around our fortunes in the centre?

Is that what we're arguing?

We're saying that putting a ruck that doesn't win hit outs and can't do much around the ground will help us win games because it will free up a player to play an around the ground role or play forward even though him playing for us is contingent upon playing as a ruck.

This is progress!

Wouldn't it be easier to hit targets, kick straight, and not not let the ball get behind the contest if you're planning on going third man up as a tall defender?

All the ruck changes in the world won't make a jot of difference if we can't get the above back on track. And yes I hear the four goals from clearances stuff get rolled out, but that's on the players in the centre and not just the ruck.

[hujsh]

Are we arguing that Sweet, who doesn't often win hit outs, will turn around our fortunes in the centre?

Is that what we're arguing?

We're saying that putting a ruck that doesn't win hit outs and can't do much around the ground will help us win games because it will free up a player to play an around the ground role or play forward even though him playing for us is contingent upon playing as a ruck.

This is progress!

Wouldn't it be easier to hit targets, kick straight, and not not let the ball get behind the contest if you're planning on going third man up as a tall defender?

All the ruck changes in the world won't make a jot of difference if we can't get the above back on track. And yes I hear the four goals from clearances stuff get rolled out, but that's on the players in the centre and not just the ruck.

Keep this up and you'll be fleeing to the Carlton Boards. You'll have to make up lies about Comrade Sweet just to get by (I wonder if anyone will know who this lady is?)
https://www.indy100.com/media-library/yeonmi-park-on-joe-rogans-podcast-joe-rogan-experience.png?id=33683161&width=1200&height=600&coordinates=0%2C272%2C0%2C188

[Danjul]

Are we arguing that Sweet, who doesn't often win hit outs, will turn around our fortunes in the centre?

Is that what we're arguing?

We're saying that putting a ruck that doesn't win hit outs and can't do much around the ground will help us win games because it will free up a player to play an around the ground role or playing forward even though him playing for us is contingent upon playing as a ruck.

This is progress!

Wouldn't it be easier to hit targets, kick straight, and not not let the ball get behind the contest if you're planning on going third man up as a tall defender?

Port got 6 goals within 2 minutes of a centre bounce. That includes retrieving the ball from the crowd. 4 of them were direct:
22, 70, 72, and 85 seconds. The other 2 are not classed as directly from the ruck although it was a major factor.

These incidents have a significant impact on the result. Preventing the direct exit is more important than chipping the ball forward and then turning it over.

Let?s quantify it. I suggest that preventing a centre clearance goal is worth at least as much as the 3 handballs followed by 2 poor kicks that we are seeing frequently. Oh I forgot, and the losses they have been causing.

[jeemak]

How is playing a ruck that doesn't win hit outs going to improve that though?

[Rocco Jones]

Two main reasons for the loss to Port:

i. (Forwards poor kicking) and not getting the ball to Naughton properly.
ii. Port got 4 goals from centre clearances and we got 0.

Most likely component of the game influencing both? Centre bounce. How many are there in a game? 25 approx.

Change 4, 2 for us and 2 against them. We win.

And that is with Richards and JJ out.

I do hear you with issues re: selection and I really believe I rate Sweet more than most. I do not think Sweet in the ruck and English forward is crazy. Whilst I don't agree, I get it and we are underperforming.

You mentioned the clearances in reference to praising the midfielders. You also mention losing 4-0 is goals from clearances. I get how English might carry blame but feel if you are praising the mids for getting clearances, they are getting off easily for losing them.

Re: clearances I feel an issue is how clear the oppositions clearances. Perhaps I will TM 'Clear Clearances'. I think there's a strong argument in English losing hitouts badly when he loses them but there's also one in the midfielders lack of defensive nous/pressure and ability to nullify.

[bulldogtragic]

Just pick him for North and it’s all or nothing on the result.

[GVGjr]

Just pick him for North and it’s all or nothing on the result.

I'd consider the move against North because it would potentially lighten the load for English before the byes and hopefully that freshens him up for the balance of the season. It also allows Sweet to get a run just in case.

[hujsh]

I'd consider the move against North because it would potentially lighten the load for English before the byes and hopefully that freshens him up for the balance of the season. It also allows Sweet to get a run just in case.

I'd rather swap Naughton and Bruce and try that TBH but that's another thread.

Maybe we do both and send WOOF into overdrive

[Rocco Jones]

I'd rather swap Naughton and Bruce and try that TBH but that's another thread.

Maybe we do both and send WOOF into overdrive

I think if we bring in Sweet, we should move Naughton back.

- Sweet ruck
- English and/or Lobb offering relief, perhaps keeping the one going well forward up forward more
- Naughton, L Jones and Keath back
- Marra with Lobb and English forward
- If no one goes off injured and Sweet isn't going well/tired, sub him off and have a fresh English go at it in the ruck for final quarter

[Danjul]

I think if we bring in Sweet, we should move Naughton back.

- Sweet ruck
- English and/or Lobb offering relief, perhaps keeping the one going well forward up forward more
- Naughton, L Jones and Keath back
- Marra with Lobb and English forward
- If no one goes off injured and Sweet isn't going well/tired, sub him off and have a fresh English go at it in the ruck for final quarter
Dangerous thoughts.

[bulldogtragic]

I think if we bring in Sweet, we should move Naughton back.

- Sweet ruck
- English and/or Lobb offering relief, perhaps keeping the one going well forward up forward more
- Naughton, L Jones and Keath back
- Marra with Lobb and English forward
- If no one goes off injured and Sweet isn't going well/tired, sub him off and have a fresh English go at it in the ruck for final quarter

That’s interesting. Bevo would never do it. Sounds like Friday night was the night for flexibility (swapping Bruce & Aaron) and there was a refusal to embrace flexibility in the box. Just everyone else needs to be flexible.

[jeemak]

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.

[Danjul]

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.
What if he is 0.75th and Sweet is 0.25th?

I would be happy with that.

[JanLorMill]

How is playing a ruck that doesn't win hit outs going to improve that though?
Easy by stopping the opposition getting taps or easy clean clearances

[bulldogtragic]

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.

Why’s that?

[jeemak]

Easy by stopping the opposition getting taps or easy clean clearances

But Sweet doesn't do that.

[JanLorMill]

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.
Bad luck then, if we are held ransom by one selfish player then you know the place is shot.

[JanLorMill]

But Sweet doesn't do that.
Where is the proof? i asked the games won when Sweet played but you never gave us that.
English certainly didn't do it on Friday.

[jeemak]

Why’s that?

Tim wants to be the number one ruck. It was strongly implied he wasn't happy with playing second fiddle to SSSM in an article/ interview with his manager and all but firmly asserted by Bevo a couple of times last year.

All of these hypotheticals seem inane to me because of that, and also because of the myth Jordon Sweet is some sort of competent tap ruckman at the elite level.

[JanLorMill]

Tim wants to be the number one ruck. It was strongly implied he wasn't happy with playing second fiddle to SSSM in an article/ interview with his manager and all but firmly asserted by Bevo a couple of times last year.

All of these hypotheticals seem inane to me because of that, and also because of the myth Jordon Sweet is some sort of competent tap ruckman at the elite level.
Its called tail wagging the dog

[jeemak]

Where is the proof? i asked the games won when Sweet played but you never gave us that.

Yes we won games when Sweet played but he lost most of the ruck contests. In some cases he got completely ripped apart and we still won.

Just like we win games when English draws level or loses, or lose when he has a ripper.

[jeemak]

Its called tail wagging the dog

I don't like it either.

I advocated for chasing Grundy and playing English forward and forcing his hand to either do what the team needs or bugger off but it is what it is.

But I can't advocate for playing Sweet ruck and forcing English to play a role he doesn't want to play or bugger off, because Sweet isn't a good tap ruckman and isn't a good around the ground ruckman. Grundy is.

[bulldogtragic]

Tim wants to be the number one ruck. It was strongly implied he wasn't happy with playing second fiddle to SSSM in an article/ interview with his manager and all but firmly asserted by Bevo a couple of times last year.

All of these hypotheticals seem inane to me because of that, and also because of the myth Jordon Sweet is some sort of competent tap ruckman at the elite level.

Forgetting Sweet, that doesn?t sound good. Our midfield is determined by Tim?s wants. But JJ can play 3 years forward, Lobb can play wing, others wherever Bevo wants (except Naughton in defence). If he demands it on exposed form sure. If he demands it because of a personal preference, I can?t say I really like reading that. At all.

[JanLorMill]

Yes we won games when Sweet played but he lost most of the ruck contests. In some cases he got completely ripped apart and we still won.

Just like we win games when English draws level or loses, or lose when he has a ripper.

To me winning is the end game but because a ruck doesn't win taps doesn't mean he isn't nullifying the opposition in anyway. It was clear on Friday and vs Gold Coast a major reason we lost was because the opposition ruck smashed us not only in taps but with their physical presence.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't like it either.

I advocated for chasing Grundy and playing English forward and forcing his hand to either do what the team needs or bugger off but it is what it is.

But I can't advocate for playing Sweet ruck and forcing English to play a role he doesn't want to play or bugger off, because Sweet isn't a good tap ruckman and isn't a good around the ground ruckman. Grundy is.

This. What if Tim leaves for a monster offer? We’re flat out ****ed.

[jeemak]

This. What if Tim leaves for a monster offer? We’re flat out ****ed.

We'll be fine because we have Jordon Sweet. Keep up!

[JanLorMill]

I don't like it either.

I advocated for chasing Grundy and playing English forward and forcing his hand to either do what the team needs or bugger off but it is what it is.

But I can't advocate for playing Sweet ruck and forcing English to play a role he doesn't want to play or bugger off, because Sweet isn't a good tap ruckman and isn't a good around the ground ruckman. Grundy is.
OK let him have his way, not change a thing, continue with performances like Friday and see where it gets us.

[jeemak]

To me winning is the end game but because a ruck doesn't win taps doesn't mean he isn't nullifying the opposition in anyway. It was clear on Friday and vs Gold Coast a major reason we lost was because the opposition ruck smashed us not only in taps but with their physical presence.

So the games we won where Jordon Sweet played and lost the hit outs we won because the impact of the hit outs weren't as great as when Tim loses the hit outs.

[jeemak]

OK let him have his way, not change a thing, continue with performances like Friday and see where it gets us.

I said I don't like it. It's not my decision.

[JanLorMill]

So the games we won where Jordon Sweet played and lost the hit outs we won because the impact of the hit outs weren't as great as when Tim loses the hit outs.
Maybe. I haven't seen if there are stats that measure that. We had Ben Hudson that was a specialist at it.
I do remember so of the best football we have played over the past 3 years have been with 2 rucks and Englsih as the No 2.

[GVGjr]

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.

I've heard that mentioned a few times but I'm only advocating that we use Sweet from time to time. If that's all what it takes to push him over then he's not as committed to the club as he should be. He will see the bigger picture.

[Grantysghost]

Maybe. I haven't seen if there are stats that measure that. We had Ben Hudson that was a specialist at it.
I do remember so of the best football we have played over the past 3 years have been with 2 rucks and Englsih as the No 2.

Think you got him there.

[Grantysghost]

Port got 6 goals within 2 minutes of a centre bounce. That includes retrieving the ball from the crowd. 4 of them were direct:
22, 70, 72, and 85 seconds. The other 2 are not classed as directly from the ruck although it was a major factor.

These incidents have a significant impact on the result. Preventing the direct exit is more important than chipping the ball forward and then turning it over.

Let?s quantify it. I suggest that preventing a centre clearance goal is worth at least as much as the 3 handballs followed by 2 poor kicks that we are seeing frequently. Oh I forgot, and the losses they have been causing.

I've almost been convinced. You guys are like Viv Richards... Playing the mind games.

Sweet in.

[Rocco Jones]

We'll be fine because we have Jordon Sweet. Keep up!

We'll be sweet*

[Grantysghost]

Tim wants to be the number one ruck. It was strongly implied he wasn't happy with playing second fiddle to SSSM in an article/ interview with his manager and all but firmly asserted by Bevo a couple of times last year.

All of these hypotheticals seem inane to me because of that, and also because of the myth Jordon Sweet is some sort of competent tap ruckman at the elite level.

I reckon that's over played. It was Bevo firing a shot across the bows via an interview from memory I've never heard Tim say this.

[jeemak]

I reckon that's over played. It was Bevo firing a shot across the bows via an interview from memory I've never heard Tim say this.

I didn't say Tim said it.

[Danjul]

So the games we won where Jordon Sweet played and lost the hit outs we won because the impact of the hit outs weren't as great as when Tim loses the hit outs.
From 2022.

Bonts highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck with English.

Treloars highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck both times.

Wests highest number of disposals was 19. Sweet was the ruck.

West kicked 3 goals in a game and 2 twice. Who was the ruck in those games? Sweet.

It is called synergy.

[Grantysghost]

I didn't say Tim said it.

I heard Bevo say it too I just wonder how true it is.

Wasn't disagreeing.

I can't imagine a player, especially a guy like Tim being that demanding.

Was maybe more like a preference that his agent amplified which annoyed Bevo who took a crack back via the media.

Tim hasn't played forward since though!

[jeemak]

From 2022.

Bonts highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck.

Treloars highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck both times.

Wests highest number of disposals was 19. Sweet was the ruck.

West kicked 3 goals in a game and 2 twice. Who was the ruck in those games? Sweet.

It is called synergy.

I get it. Sweet wins games by losing the hit outs but making everyone else around him play better.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

This. What if Tim leaves for a monster offer? We?re flat out ****ed.

I'm fine if Tim wants to leave. We would be adequately compensated and if there's any position on the ground where you don't need a 'star', just somebody who is physical/competes, the ruck is it.

Nank/Hudson types are perfectly fine.

I mean, we won a flag with Roughead as our main ruck.

Identifying the next Nank/Hudson would be great. O'Brien (Crows) and Darcy (Freo) are probably the modern day versions, but there will be others.

[Rocco Jones]

We are 9-2 with Sweet in the side.

He was dropped the week after both losses.

I am taking no sides. Just stating objective facts.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Just to add on to my previous post, Collingwood traded Grundy - one of the best in the modern era - because they overpaid for a position you should never overpay in.

They now use Cameron and Cox and are probably flag favourites.

** Pretty sure I suggested Cox 2 years ago ;)

Losing English is far from catastrophic.

[macca]

Just to add on to my previous post, Collingwood traded Grundy - one of the best in the modern era - because they overpaid for a position you should never overpay in.

They now use Cameron and Cox and are probably flag favourites.

** Pretty sure I suggested Cox 2 years ago ;)

Losing English is far from catastrophic.

Cameron has added fwd marking to his game and looks stronger and able to hold the number 1 ruck position

Cox is a tall forward who can provide chop out in the ruck. His actually an accurate kick

My point is, you don't need super ruckman, just someone who can provide a contest, keep a stoppage and give our mids first use of it. Instead we have not a number 1 ruck in English, who loses the hitouts against good ruck. Our mids work their backsides off to win the contest.

I don't really know what else they expect of Sweet, what is lacking in his game , other than his not agile, does not have great skillls for a big man, is an ordinary mark . Can he hold a number 1 ruck position though against bigger mature rucks ? We have the rest of the season to find out.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't really have a strong opinion on Sweet. We definitely could have tried to fit him in more, he showed some OK signs, but he also struggled at times.

I'd prefer Cox to Lobb, and he would have been a freebie.

[Scorlibo]

Using either scores from clearances or games won as the stats of choice to justify an opinion on ruck selection is not where I would start. Both of those stats involve a huge number of variables. In the case of scores from centre clearance, it's not just the ruckwork, it's not even just the mids' input. It's the input of all players forward of the centre. And let's put the Port numbers in perspective - didn't two of those goals start from free kicks in ruck lotto? Those could just as easily go our way this week.

More to the point... I'm all for experimenting if our season goes down the drain over the next few weeks. In the meantime, this is the pertinent question for me:


Danjul, do you believe the around the ground work English does against fellow ruckmen will be basically replicated to equal value if he is up against mids or playing forward?

We have a player who most consider to be the best in his position so far this year, he could very well be leading our B&F, and the potential for limiting his output should be a concern with this move. So where would he play?



English can follow the ball more closely. He has excellent footy smarts and reads the play better than most. And he has a big tank.

This would put significant pressure on the opposition. He would take some ruck contests but I would be trying to conserve his energy to maximise his game time.

Does this mean him playing as a centre bounce midfielder Danjul? He's very good below his knees for a ruckman, but I don't think he should play there ahead of Smith, Macrae or Daniel.

I could see him having an impact on a wing, and if the experiment were to go ahead that's where I'd fancy trying him. I doubt he'd perform to the same standard at ground level, but he could probably have just as much impact in the air.

I'd contend there is no position where he'd make the same marginal impact he gives us now in the ruck. Anywhere else and we're getting less of out Tim.

Now that wouldn't be such a big deal if we had Sean Darcy to bring into the mix at the hitouts, but Sweet isn't that player. It's debatable that he offers less than Tim does at the hitouts, given Tim's improvement in that area this year, and Sweet's lacklustre VFL season to date. On VFL form Sweet might be lucky to keep his spot on the list.

[jeemak]

Cameron has added fwd marking to his game and looks stronger and able to hold the number 1 ruck position

Cox is a tall forward who can provide chop out in the ruck. His actually an accurate kick

My point is, you don't need super ruckman, just someone who can provide a contest, keep a stoppage and give our mids first use of it. Instead we have not a number 1 ruck in English, who loses the hitouts against good ruck. Our mids work their backsides off to win the contest.

I don't really know what else they expect of Sweet, what is lacking in his game , other than his not agile, does not have great skillls for a big man, is an ordinary mark . Can he hold a number 1 ruck position though against bigger mature rucks ? We have the rest of the season to find out.

You forgot to mention that Sweet more often than not loses the hit outs.

[Rocco Jones]

You forgot to mention that Sweet more often than not loses the hit outs.

But Rhylee West plays better with him in.

[Rocco Jones]

Using either scores from clearances or games won as the stats of choice to justify an opinion on ruck selection is not where I would start. Both of those stats involve a huge number of variables. In the case of scores from centre clearance, it's not just the ruckwork, it's not even just the mids' input. It's the input of all players forward of the centre. And let's put the Port numbers in perspective - didn't two of those goals start from free kicks in ruck lotto? Those could just as easily go our way this week.

More to the point... I'm all for experimenting if our season goes down the drain over the next few weeks. In the meantime, this is the pertinent question for me:



We have a player who most consider to be the best in his position so far this year, he could very well be leading our B&F, and the potential for limiting his output should be a concern with this move. So where would he play?



Does this mean him playing as a centre bounce midfielder Danjul? He's very good below his knees for a ruckman, but I don't think he should play there ahead of Smith, Macrae or Daniel.

I could see him having an impact on a wing, and if the experiment were to go ahead that's where I'd fancy trying him. I doubt he'd perform to the same standard at ground level, but he could probably have just as much impact in the air.

I'd contend there is no position where he'd make the same marginal impact he gives us now in the ruck. Anywhere else and we're getting less of out Tim.

Now that wouldn't be such a big deal if we had Sean Darcy to bring into the mix at the hitouts, but Sweet isn't that player. It's debatable that he offers less than Tim does at the hitouts, given Tim's improvement in that area this year, and Sweet's lacklustre VFL season to date. On VFL form Sweet might be lucky to keep his spot on the list.

Well said.

[Grantysghost]

You forgot to mention that Sweet more often than not loses the hit outs.

Is the argument then really not Sweet v English, and more people want a Hudson/Nankervis type instead of English?

Sweet really hasn't shown enough to be given this level of love.

I'm trying to understand where the Sweet collective are coming from.

[Rocco Jones]

Is the argument then really not Sweet v English, and more people want a Hudson/Nankervis type instead of English?

Sweet really hasn't shown enough to be given this level of love.

I'm trying to understand where the Sweet collective are coming from.

I don't mind Sweet but the biggest hole I see in the argument to bring him in isn't so much Sweet, but it's what we will lose around the ground from English. He owns it around the ground because he is up against ruckmen. Also, English isn't the best tap ruckman but he isn't the work. I am not up for stats in isolation but he has the 5th highest hitouts to advantage. Those who do not like his tapwork I believe are reading a lot into total hitouts and perhaps giving the rest of the midfield group an out when we concede clear run clearances.

[westbulldog]

The antipathy towards giving Sweet a chance is stunning. Clairvoyance prevails because woofers just "know for certain" he is no good and won't ever make it - without him being given an opportunity, great stuff, post next week's winning lotto numbers while you're at it.

[jazzadogs]

From 2022.

Bonts highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck with English.

Treloars highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck both times.

Wests highest number of disposals was 19. Sweet was the ruck.

West kicked 3 goals in a game and 2 twice. Who was the ruck in those games? Sweet.

It is called synergy.


https://youtu.be/8TSRVgI15OQ

[jazzadogs]

I'm switching Bruce and Naughton before I'm putting Sweet in as #1 ruck ahead of English.

I have no issue with him, and agree that JOD/Jones are not doing enough, but I don't think he is the answer. I actually think Lobb has been fine as a 2nd ruck, but it's his time in the forward line which isn't working.

I just don't really see what problem Sweet solves.

[Danjul]

Is the argument then really not Sweet v English, and more people want a Hudson/Nankervis type instead of English?

Sweet really hasn't shown enough to be given this level of love.

I'm trying to understand where the Sweet collective are coming from.
The team that was leading comfortably in the 2021 grand final might get into the finals this year. That would be on the basis of an easy draw. Not because we are winning well at the moment.

The suggestion is a tap ruckman might help. That?s what we did in 2021. We only have one to try.

unfortunately the club has refused to consider getting a good one. It has not been a component of the visionary game plan that has had us looking mediocre for most of the last 5 years.

The only consistent success since 2017 was when a worn out one fell into the team for a few games. Our first priority should be getting a good one.

[Rocco Jones]

The team that was leading comfortably in the 2021 grand final might get into the finals this year. That would be on the basis of an easy draw. Not because we are winning well at the moment.

The suggestion is a tap ruckman might help. That?s what we did in 2021. We only have one to try.

unfortunately the club has refused to consider getting a good one. It has not been a component of the visionary game plan that has had us looking mediocre for most of the last 5 years.

The only consistent success since 2017 was when a worn out one fell into the team for a few games. Our first priority should be getting a good one.

Would you prefer Tom Campbell back and there as first ruck over English? Campbell smashed Sweet last time they were up against each other, last year in the VFL. Campbell had more hitouts and over 3x more disposals.

[Grantysghost]

https://youtu.be/8TSRVgI15OQ

Clear tray 3.... Where the fk is that?

[Grantysghost]

The team that was leading comfortably in the 2021 grand final might get into the finals this year. That would be on the basis of an easy draw. Not because we are winning well at the moment.

The suggestion is a tap ruckman might help. That?s what we did in 2021. We only have one to try.

unfortunately the club has refused to consider getting a good one. It has not been a component of the visionary game plan that has had us looking mediocre for most of the last 5 years.

The only consistent success since 2017 was when a worn out one fell into the team for a few games. Our first priority should be getting a good one.

Ok that makes more sense to me thanks. Not sure I agree but I see your logic.

[Grantysghost]

The antipathy towards giving Sweet a chance is stunning. Clairvoyance prevails because woofers just "know for certain" he is no good and won't ever make it - without him being given an opportunity, great stuff, post next week's winning lotto numbers while you're at it.

Is it actually Sweet or a Sweet type WB?

His game just doesn't stack up to the love from my point of view.

Even in the training sessions I've seen when there was match sim English wasn't being smashed by Sweet in the taps. (I didn't see them all).

[Danjul]

Would you prefer Tom Campbell back and there as first ruck over English? Campbell smashed Sweet last time they were up against each other, last year in the VFL. Campbell had more hitouts and over 3x more disposals.
I always liked Campbell. I can remember one of his early games where I was sitting behind the goals and he kicked the ball over my head a few times.

[bornadog]

Sweet barely averages 10 disposals a game in the VFL. The gulf between the VFL and AFL is huge.

At this stgae Sweet is not good enough to be our number 1 ruckman. The ruckman's role has changed dramatically over the past 15 years. It no longer cuts it to be just good at being a tap ruckman. Rocket never played Minson (AA Ruckman) as he hardly touched the ball around the ground.

[Rocco Jones]

Like I've said, I am not strongly against trying out Sweet but really hard to gauge too much into him killing it against top up listed rucks and guys filling in as all the rucks on the list are injured or playing AFL. For example, with Stanley out and Ceglar playing AFL, a bloke named Marriott played in the ruck for the Cats in the VFL against Sweet last week. Marriott hasn't won the hitouts all year. Crossley who was delisted by the Suns got 57 hitouts up against him.

Sweet has only had 2 games up against AFL listed players who regularly play in the ruck this season. Small sample size I know.
VFL R10- Moyle 32 ho Sweet 21 ho
VFL R7- Briggs 34 ho Sweet 22 ho

Having a look, probably the highest calibre ruckman he has won the hitouts against in the VFL this season is the aforementioned Crossley.

[Rocco Jones]

Other than destroying 20 year old top up types or guys like Miller from the Tigers when there first 3 rucks are injured or playing AFL, what is the evidence that Sweet is good at winning hitouts?

In his 11 AFL games he has won the hitouts twice. Once up against Reeves 32-21 and the other time against Caleb Graham, a 195cm makeshift ruck when all the other Suns were injured.

Legit question. I watch a bit of VFL but not heaps. Wondering if I am missing something with Sweet's ruckwork.

[JanLorMill]

All the talk of taps is a diversion. Ruck is probably the most physical position in the team and we play one of our least physical players there, it carries through the team and the results are showing.

[hujsh]

All the talk of taps is a diversion. Ruck is probably the most physical position in the team and we play one of our least physical players there, it carries through the team and the results are showing.

Can we recruit that guy that plays the Mountain in Game of Thrones then? He probably won't get a touch or a hitout but he seems real physical

[JanLorMill]

Can we recruit that guy that plays the Mountain in Game of Thrones then? He probably won't get a touch or a hitout but he seems real physical
Yes that’s what I meant. Haha

[mjp]

110 posts about Jordan Sweet...surely a sign of the apocalypse!

[Rocco Jones]

110 posts about Jordan Sweet...surely a sign of the apocalypse!

....in a day.

I kind of view this as quarantine.

[hujsh]

Yes that’s what I meant. Haha

Look, it's hard to engage seriously with the topic. The best evidence we have for why Sweet, who there's not much evdience of him being a better tap ruckman than English, should be our ruckman is really just vibes. But there are few posters who are really frustrated with English that are looking for any possible alternative when the evidence we have now is that there just isn't one.

I don't mean to shield English from criticism. The last two games I've watched (Port and GC) he has been objectively poor and beaten. But the game I didn't watch both coaching groups had him as our most influential player. How are we meant to accept losing that because of a few random statistics? Okay we won more with Sweet in the team in 2021 or whatever but the VFL team is 4-6 with him in it so maybe we can accept he just come to terms with the idea it's maybe not the driving force behind those wins? Maybe we have to at a certain point realise the team and the game changes every year and just trying to replicate a specific aspect of a specific period of time where we were doing quite well is not the instant ticket to success it's hyped up to be?

I wonder if part of this specific issue people have with English is that it's much easier to compare him to the opposition ruckman as opposed to say two mids or two forwards? It's the only real position left where you can point to a clear and constant contest between two players that doesn't' switch around. If such clear comparisons were available for more players on the list I wonder how much we'd criticise them? What would Bont's opponents stat sheets look like over the last month compared to him? I daresay it wouldn't be that great.

[hujsh]

110 posts about Jordan Sweet...surely a sign of the apocalypse!

The apocalypse happened already partway through 2021, now it's just purgatory we're all experiencing.

[Danjul]

Other than destroying 20 year old top up types or guys like Miller from the Tigers when there first 3 rucks are injured or playing AFL, what is the evidence that Sweet is good at winning hitouts?

In his 11 AFL games he has won the hitouts twice. Once up against Reeves 32-21 and the other time against Caleb Graham, a 195cm makeshift ruck when all the other Suns were injured.

Legit question. I watch a bit of VFL but not heaps. Wondering if I am missing something with Sweet's ruckwork.
Good points.

Reeves beat English 43-30 for hitouts a couple of weeks ago and Hawks won the clearances, 7-2 to advantage in the first half I think the screen said. Reeves also had more disposals over the whole game. 15-11. Yes, English had only 11 disposals. Happens.

So Reeves got twice as many hitouts against English as he does against Sweet.

And Sweet has had less continuity at AFL level than JOD. Most consecutive games last season was 3. He will not improve in the seconds, isn?t that the logic behind JOD getting selected after 4 disposals.

In 2021, when he should have been developing in a winning team, he averaged more hitouts per game than Martin.

Hope this helps.

[Grantysghost]

Good points.

Reeves beat English 43-30 for hitouts a couple of weeks ago and Hawks won the clearances, 7-2 to advantage in the first half I think the screen said. Reeves also had more disposals over the whole game. 15-11. Yes, English had only 11 disposals. Happens.

So Reeves got twice as many hitouts against English as he does against Sweet.

And Sweet has had less continuity at AFL level than JOD. Most consecutive games last season was 3. He will not improve in the seconds, isn?t that the logic behind JOD getting selected after 4 disposals.

In 2021, when he should have been developing in a winning team, he averaged more hitouts per game than Martin.

Hope this helps.

So the point is we should get Reeves!

[hujsh]

I done messed up yall. Ignore me

[Rocco Jones]

I made an error. He beat Sweet beat Reeves 32-31.

[Grantysghost]

I made an error. He beat Sweet beat Reeves 32-31.

Vote :mad: for a Rocco ban or :confused: for why isn't Schache mentioned more?

[Grantysghost]

Vote :mad: for a Rocco ban or :confused: for why isn't Schache mentioned more?

:mad:

[Danjul]

Look, it's hard to engage seriously with the topic. The best evidence we have for why Sweet, who there's not much evdience of him being a better tap ruckman than English, should be our ruckman is really just vibes. But there are few posters who are really frustrated with English that are looking for any possible alternative when the evidence we have now is that there just isn't one.

I don't mean to shield English from criticism. The last two games I've watched (Port and GC) he has been objectively poor and beaten. But the game I didn't watch both coaching groups had him as our most influential player. How are we meant to accept losing that because of a few random statistics? Okay we won more with Sweet in the team in 2021 or whatever but the VFL team is 4-6 with him in it so maybe we can accept he just come to terms with the idea it's maybe not the driving force behind those wins? Maybe we have to at a certain point realise the team and the game changes every year and just trying to replicate a specific aspect of a specific period of time where we were doing quite well is not the instant ticket to success it's hyped up to be?

I wonder if part of this specific issue people have with English is that it's much easier to compare him to the opposition ruckman as opposed to say two mids or two forwards? It's the only real position left where you can point to a clear and constant contest between two players that doesn't' switch around. If such clear comparisons were available for more players on the list I wonder how much we'd criticise them? What would Bont's opponents stat sheets look like over the last month compared to him? I daresay it wouldn't be that great.
I think you are grossly misrepresenting the issue and what some people are saying.

It is not to replace English or limit him in any way. Or criticising him in any way.

English is fantastic and was always expected to be that way.

The only question is could Sweet or anyone else improve our recent performance by helping English. Would having the option to move English forward in any of the last 3 losses have given us a win, almost guaranteeing a finals berth? Some think yes.

It is not about English, it is about the team, its success and the club.

Recently English and Naughton hit heads, just in front of me. Naughton came off worse. If English had what was our backup for the rest of the game? Nothing.

[GVGjr]

Recently English and Naughton hit heads, just in front of me. Naughton came off worse. If English had what was our backup for the rest of the game? Nothing.

Isn't that the game where English was concussed and then missed 5 or 6 weeks? I thought Naughton kneed him in the head.
Stef Martin filled in on a few of those weeks.

[GVGjr]

All, unless people feel strongly that the thread remain open I intend to close it later today. Feel free to message me if you feel it should remain open. Happy to hear suggestions on that.

It's a topic that has been widely discussed on the forum for a while now and I thought isolating it to one thread giving people the option to ignore it might have been a benefit but I'm having 2nd thoughts now.

I'll give people a few hours to contact me if they're so inclined.

[Rocco Jones]

All, unless people feel strongly that the thread remain open I intend to close it later today. Feel free to message me if you feel it should remain open. Happy to hear suggestions on that.

It's a topic that has been widely discussed on the forum for a while now and I thought isolating it to one thread giving people the option to ignore it might have been a benefit but I'm having 2nd thoughts now.

I'll give people a few hours to contact me if they're so inclined.

Before this thread, 21 of the last 24 MC thread replies mentioned Sweet.

Since this thread, the last 13 have not mentioned Sweet.

For those that have seen The Wire, this is like Hamsterdam.

[Danjul]

Isn't that the game where English was concussed and then missed 5 or 6 weeks? I thought Naughton kneed him in the head.
Stef Martin filled in on a few of those weeks.
No, this happened in the last few weeks.

English ran off to follow the play but Naughton stood still for what seemed like a couple of minutes holding his head.

[Rocco Jones]

In all seriousness, this is going around in circles. No one's fault really. I did start the thread somewhat as a joke, but at all sides, including me. It's occupying the MC thread and at least here, you have a buy in option. Totally get GVG closing it though.

The way I see the ongoing discussion, in the most basic of all terms...

Those that want Sweet in= forget any stats that are contrary, we are performing below expectations and we can't judge Sweet until he plays AFL for a consistent duration. We won whilst he was in the side.

Those that don't want Sweet in= English is the best around the ground ruck in the AFL. Despite issues with his tapwork, he has the 5th highest hitouts to advantage. Despite Sweet being seen as a big upgrade in regards to his tapwork, he has lost the vast majority of hitout contests against AFL listed ruckmen. The counter argument to giving him a try is how much we'd lose with English out of the ruck + you can go with give them a go for any player.

Really it comes down to so much (perceived?) subjectivity that it's a massive cycle.

[hujsh]

I think you are grossly misrepresenting the issue and what some people are saying.

It is not to replace English or limit him in any way. Or criticising him in any way.

English is fantastic and was always expected to be that way.

The only question is could Sweet or anyone else improve our recent performance by helping English. Would having the option to move English forward in any of the last 3 losses have given us a win, almost guaranteeing a finals berth? Some think yes.

It is not about English, it is about the team, its success and the club.

Recently English and Naughton hit heads, just in front of me. Naughton came off worse. If English had what was our backup for the rest of the game? Nothing.

First of all misrepresenting implies something deliberate or malicious on my part. This is not the case. It's possible I misunderstand though.

That said I'm not sure your response really makes me feel like I do. Maybe to say you're frustrated with English is wrong but given you've mentioned a few times the number of center clearance goals maybe it's more accurate to say you're frustrated with Bevo and his choice to stick with English in the centre square even when he's having a down day?

Personally, while it would be great to have Sweet as a 2nd sub we can bring into the game in that situation, we don't have the luxury of carrying a second pure ruck in the team who can't compete elsewhere.

I'll admit I'm frustrated with English at times. Maybe, just maybe, it would have been worth rucking Lobb more last week since neither player was really doing much in their preferred position and that might have helped both get involved in the game in different ways.

I don't think we'll see that though as once gameday comes around our approach seems to be to 'back in' the players in their given roles (with the exception of who we sub out)'

That said I don't see what the point would be of moving English forward against Geelong when he was our BOG. It really seems like that game was lost by not kicking straight. Port and GC though? Yeah change things up if you can, but the only realistic change in game is moving Lobb.

[Sedat]

First of all misrepresenting implies something deliberate or malicious on my part. This is not the case. It's possible I misunderstand though.

That said I'm not sure your response really makes me feel like I do. Maybe to say you're frustrated with English is wrong but given you've mentioned a few times the number of center clearance goals maybe it's more accurate to say you're frustrated with Bevo and his choice to stick with English in the centre square even when he's having a down day?

Personally, while it would be great to have Sweet as a 2nd sub we can bring into the game in that situation, we don't have the luxury of carrying a second pure ruck in the team who can't compete elsewhere.

I'll admit I'm frustrated with English at times. Maybe, just maybe, it would have been worth rucking Lobb more last week since neither player was really doing much in their preferred position and that might have helped both get involved in the game in different ways.

I don't think we'll see that though as once gameday comes around our approach seems to be to 'back in' the players in their given roles (with the exception of who we sub out)'

That said I don't see what the point would be of moving English forward against Geelong when he was our BOG. It really seems like that game was lost by not kicking straight. Port and GC though? Yeah change things up if you can, but the only realistic change in game is moving Lobb.
Full disclosure - I'm about to move in wild hypothesis mode that has no relevance whatsoever on this thread topic and no bearing whatsoever on our current structure and future success.

But what if we asked the wrong question in the off-season last year by getting a perfectly adequate (good to very good if I'm being super generous) established 2nd ruck/forward instead of acknowledging we already have an absolutely elite 2nd ruck/forward who is superior in every way to the perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward we used valuable draft pick/salary currency on. And instead we asked a different question and used our valuable draft pick/salary currency on an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck who could share a far more impactful balance of the ruck/forward duties in tandem with English? That's not to say anything about using our brand new perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward as a 7 possession a game wingman in the last few weeks.

I can't think of whether or not there was such an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck available in the trade period last year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Full disclosure - I'm about to move in wild hypothesis mode that has no relevance whatsoever on this thread topic and no bearing whatsoever on our current structure and future success.

But what if we asked the wrong question in the off-season last year by getting a perfectly adequate (good to very good if I'm being super generous) established 2nd ruck/forward instead of acknowledging we already have an absolutely elite 2nd ruck/forward who is superior in every way to the perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward we used valuable draft pick/salary currency on. And instead we asked a different question and used our valuable draft pick/salary currency on an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck who could share a far more impactful balance of the ruck/forward duties in tandem with English? That's not to say anything about using our brand new perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward as a 7 possession a game wingman in the last few weeks.

I can't think of whether or not there was such an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck available in the trade period last year.

This is the view I share.

English as a first ruck? Pass.

English as a second ruck/forward? There is no better.

Sadly we didn't even entertain your idea and instead went with Lobb. In hindsight, Cox would have been a better bet than Lobb 2 years ago, and would have cost a lot less.

[Danjul]

First of all misrepresenting implies something deliberate or malicious on my part. This is not the case. It's possible I misunderstand though.

That said I'm not sure your response really makes me feel like I do. Maybe to say you're frustrated with English is wrong but given you've mentioned a few times the number of center clearance goals maybe it's more accurate to say you're frustrated with Bevo and his choice to stick with English in the centre square even when he's having a down day?

Personally, while it would be great to have Sweet as a 2nd sub we can bring into the game in that situation, we don't have the luxury of carrying a second pure ruck in the team who can't compete elsewhere.

I'll admit I'm frustrated with English at times. Maybe, just maybe, it would have been worth rucking Lobb more last week since neither player was really doing much in their preferred position and that might have helped both get involved in the game in different ways.

I don't think we'll see that though as once gameday comes around our approach seems to be to 'back in' the players in their given roles (with the exception of who we sub out)'

That said I don't see what the point would be of moving English forward against Geelong when he was our BOG. It really seems like that game was lost by not kicking straight. Port and GC though? Yeah change things up if you can, but the only realistic change in game is moving Lobb.
Didn?t mean malicious, meant incorrect. Sorry for any offence.

[Rocco Jones]

Full disclosure - I'm about to move in wild hypothesis mode that has no relevance whatsoever on this thread topic and no bearing whatsoever on our current structure and future success.

But what if we asked the wrong question in the off-season last year by getting a perfectly adequate (good to very good if I'm being super generous) established 2nd ruck/forward instead of acknowledging we already have an absolutely elite 2nd ruck/forward who is superior in every way to the perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward we used valuable draft pick/salary currency on. And instead we asked a different question and used our valuable draft pick/salary currency on an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck who could share a far more impactful balance of the ruck/forward duties in tandem with English? That's not to say anything about using our brand new perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward as a 7 possession a game wingman in the last few weeks.

I can't think of whether or not there was such an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck available in the trade period last year.

I agree with this.

Players who suit mainly playing KPF, ruck relief role are so rare too, so we really went out of our way to get Lobb. I say out of our way, the Lobb get was (or should have been) as targeted a get as they come.

Lobb, Finlayson and Thilthrope are the only players who come to mind who seem to benefit from the predominately forward/rest the main ruck type role. Cox was mentioned. I see him more suited to sharing the ruck role in an even spilt. Cameron pretty suited to it as well, so a good combo.

[hujsh]

Didn?t mean malicious, meant incorrect. Sorry for any offence.

All good just getting on the same page. A constant fight with text based communication

[hujsh]

Full disclosure - I'm about to move in wild hypothesis mode that has no relevance whatsoever on this thread topic and no bearing whatsoever on our current structure and future success.

But what if we asked the wrong question in the off-season last year by getting a perfectly adequate (good to very good if I'm being super generous) established 2nd ruck/forward instead of acknowledging we already have an absolutely elite 2nd ruck/forward who is superior in every way to the perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward we used valuable draft pick/salary currency on. And instead we asked a different question and used our valuable draft pick/salary currency on an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck who could share a far more impactful balance of the ruck/forward duties in tandem with English? That's not to say anything about using our brand new perfectly adequate 2nd ruck/forward as a 7 possession a game wingman in the last few weeks.

I can't think of whether or not there was such an established, well-credentialed elite 1st ruck available in the trade period last year.

You might be right. But we can't go back in time and change that. The question now is what, if anything, do we do with the list we have.

[Rocco Jones]

I must say before looking into it I was probably more into Sweet getting a go but the further I have looked into, I really don't rate Sweet anything more than an okay back up ruck. That's not to say we shouldn't target a ruck and I think we have stuffed up list management wise but IMO Sweet is a break glass in case of emergency option.

I think the belief he is a good tap ruckmen is largely a myth. He loses the majority of hitout contests when up against AFL listed rucks in the VFL. If you are a keener VFL watcher than I, please correct me if I am wrong. English as R1 is definitely not my hill to die on.

[Rocco Jones]

FWIW I think relative to the extreme toxicity that is the internet, these discussions are very civil.

[meenies]

Isn't that the game where English was concussed and then missed 5 or 6 weeks? I thought Naughton kneed him in the head.
Stef Martin filled in on a few of those weeks.

it happened on Saturday night. Railway side wing. I was worried about English moreso because he is concussion prone. He gave Naughton a little filthy look after that.

[Sedat]

You might be right. But we can't go back in time and change that. The question now is what, if anything, do we do with the list we have.
I know, hence the full disclosure statement. English has definitely raised his stoppage game in 2023, even if he still falls short on occasions against the really big dogs like Witts (I was very disappointed an old-school clydesdale like Lycett got a hold of him on the weekend).

Perhaps Melbourne also asked the wrong question in the off-season by cashing their chips on getting an elite available 1st ruck/occasional forward to compliment their already existing elite 1st ruck/occasional forward in 2023.

Perhaps Freo also asked the wrong question in the off-season, when they spent heavily on a player who might be 1st ruck but maybe a 2nd ruck (definitely not much of an occasional key forward) to compliment their existing elite 1st ruck of a similar age profile. Whatever Jackson ultimately ends up being, he was a pretty effective 1st/2nd/whatever stoppage ruck in the last 8 minutes of the 3rd qtr of the 2021 GF :(

It's fun to wildly hypothesise. It won't be so much fun if Grundy gets on the premiership dais in 2023 and Melbourne win another farken flag. Although that would be slightly more fun than the Collingwood filth winning another flag, especially as they are paying for the privilege of Grundy being kitted out in the red and blue.

[Topdog]

it happened on Saturday night. Railway side wing. I was worried about English moreso because he is concussion prone. He gave Naughton a little filthy look after that.

It was the Geelong game, only game i've been to this year.

[macca]

Can we recruit that guy that plays the Mountain in Game of Thrones then? He probably won't get a touch or a hitout but he seems real physical

Brisbane found one in McInerny
Even his own admission his a bash and crash ruck type . Takes the occassional mark but not reliable.

[Sedat]

In hindsight, Cox would have been a better bet than Lobb 2 years ago, and would have cost a lot less.
Delving even deeper into the hindsight box, Casboult was considered something of a joke a couple of years ago as a key forward/occasional 2nd ruck option - Casboult doesn't lose anything in 2023 compared to Lobb. His current team also has Chol unable to break into the side - Chol has talent as a 2nd ruck/forward but he enjoys body contact about as much the Lonie brothers (English looks like Glenn Archer in comparison to Chol).

It's all hindsight and what-ifs. We simply need English to continue raising his game and become an elite 1st ruck/stoppage ruck (he's not consistently there yet IMO) if we are to contend for a flag during the rest of the Bont era IMO. He's made undeniable strides in 2023, and that is from one of his biggest critics as a stoppage ruckman. He still has a way to go but 2023 is clearly better than his stoppage ruck work against the best for the previous 4 years from 2019-2022, which were incredibly costly at the worst possible times, a price Bevo and the MC were obviously ready and willing to pay in order to fast-track English's development as a 1st ruck for the 2nd half of his career.

English is hands-down the most important player on our list for the next 5 years. If he continues to improve and become a consistently bankable week-to-week top 2-3 stoppage ruckman in the competition (I don't care about clearance stats, he cannot let a dinosaur like Lycett dominate him at stoppages ever again), we win a flag (or more) in the next 5 years IMO. If he flatlines (or leaves), we are toast as a premiership threat - that's how important he is. It is a brutally harsh assessment on Tim but it's the truth - he needs to continue raising his stoppage game and justifying the unwavering faith Bevo has had in him as a 1st/stoppage ruck, or we are also-rans and will have wasted the rest of the Bont years.

Who helps English become that consistent and bankable 1st/stoppage ruck we desperately need? Is it Lobb? Sometimes it has been but nowhere near often enough IMO? Could it be Sweet? It would require significant structure changes across the board with no guarantee of any success (I'd give it a crack for 2-3 weeks just to evaluate, especially if Lobb continues to give virtually nothing in either role he was specifically traded in to do). Could it be Darcy? Maybe in 2025-30.

[macca]

Very good observation @sedat on Casboult and Chol.

thats what I don't get, why there was no love for these journeymen from their original club - Casboult even Witts.
Yeah I get the Witts had Fraser ( incridbly end up at the same club) and Grundy to contend against.


They offer incredible value as a money ball pick.

Casboult is an outstanding mark. Maligned for his kicking but after he had a few seasons with Anthony Rocca seemed to iron that out. Maybe the Carlton hyperbole got to him.

Is there anyone in the AFL system that fits this criteria ... not loved or appreciated by their club? I have a feeling Silvagni could fit that criteria.

[GVGjr]

FWIW I think relative to the extreme toxicity that is the internet, these discussions are very civil.

I know WOOF cops the occasional flogging because of a few emotional comments particularly on some of the game day threads but compared to some other sites I've looked out ours is very tame.

[Rocco Jones]

I know WOOF cops the occasional flogging because of a few emotional comments particularly on some of the game day threads but compared to some other sites I've looked out ours is very tame.

Extremely tame. I believe we only view it as carry on due to the higher associated standards. As a few know I run the Fanboy page. I avoid posting there after a loss as it's too much work abuse/negativity wise.

[mjp]

I just want to get this thread to 200 posts in a day.

Rocco Jones you are my new hero!!

(Well - you were my old hero and now you have regained hero status! A man who knows what the people want!)

[Rocco Jones]

I just want to get this thread to 200 posts in a day.

Rocco Jones you are my new hero!!

(Well - you were my old hero and now you have regained hero status! A man who knows what the people want!)

Quantity > Quality

[Grantysghost]

Quantity > Quality

You take that back.

This is thread of the year clubhouse leader.

[Grantysghost]

I know WOOF cops the occasional flogging because of a few emotional comments particularly on some of the game day threads but compared to some other sites I've looked out ours is very tame.
Super civil.

[jazzadogs]

Quantity > Quality

Unrelated but I'd like to request Jordon Sweet in the 2023 Rocco Jones Norm Smith Sweep. Thank you.

In the unlikely event he is unavailable, I will shotgun the best ruck in the grand final (who we will all know that Jordon Sweet would be better than if he was just given a chance). Thank you.

[jeemak]

Unrelated but I'd like to request Jordon Sweet in the 2023 Rocco Jones Norm Smith Sweep. Thank you.

In the unlikely event he is unavailable, I will shotgun the best ruck in the grand final (who we will all know that Jordon Sweet would be better than if he was just given a chance). Thank you.

Surely banned from the first few rounds of the sweep with this presumptuousness?

[EasternWest]

I don't think you should close this thread G I am enjoying the discussion,both serious and banter.

[Grantysghost]

I don't think you should close this thread G I am enjoying the discussion,both serious and banter.

Agree it's like when they clean the Yarra and the rubbish is all caught in one small corner.

[Rocco Jones]

Unrelated but I'd like to request Jordon Sweet in the 2023 Rocco Jones Norm Smith Sweep. Thank you.

In the unlikely event he is unavailable, I will shotgun the best ruck in the grand final (who we will all know that Jordon Sweet would be better than if he was just given a chance). Thank you.

Danjul gets first dibs on Sweet or Bont. You get the leftover.

[EasternWest]

Agree it's like when they clean the Yarra and the rubbish is all caught in one small corner.

Your new profile pick is dreamy yet offensive to me.

[Grantysghost]

Your new profile pick is dreamy yet offensive to me.

It's actually a Lippa doll.

[macca]

You take that back.

This is thread of the year clubhouse leader.

But is Quantity > Quality > Kwality ?

[chef]

Haven't seen the game, how did the head to head go?

[jeemak]

Haven't seen the game, how did the head to head go?

Tim was pathetic early, enabled Sweet to assert some hit out dominance.

Sweet did nothing around the ground outside of an early goal. Tim kicked a couple and was more prominent around the ground.

Disappointed in Tim's start, though strangely he wasn't given the first run at it. In a very cute coaching move they put Darcy into the centre to start the game. I'd have eyeballed Tim and put it on him to dominate Sweet from the start, too clever.

[Grantysghost]

Haven't seen the game, how did the head to head go?

Tim was the better player.
Sweet was the better midfield cog and helped their mids dominate from the go.

So considering the position they play. Sweet got the points for mine even though Tim played ok and was one of our best.

[1eyedog]

Haven't seen the game, how did the head to head go?

Sweet gave his mids first use when it mattered. The goal he kicked on English in the second was a dagger.

What English did in the second half was largely irrelevant.

[Mofra]

I'm not sure there was ~$700k difference between them which is a wild guess at their salary difference

[bornadog]

Tim was the better player.
Sweet was the better midfield cog and helped their mids dominate from the go.

So considering the position they play. Sweet got the points for mine even though Tim played ok and was one of our best.

Sweet 42 HO but only 9 to his clubs advantage - but that got them going. Tim only 4 HTA, but good around the ground.

Also Sweet only 4 Cont Poss, Tim 10

[EasternWest]

Sweet 42 HO but only 9 to his clubs advantage - but that got them going. Tim only 4 HTA, but good around the ground.

Also Sweet only 4 Cont Poss, Tim 10

English was starched when it mattered so the stats are irrelevant.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

This is why stats are useless to some degree.

Who had the better influence? Clearly it was Sweet, English stat padding when the game was well and truly over counts for nothing.

The fact it's even a conversation is an indictment on Tim. He should be dominant against Sweet.

I really hope we move him on, he's everything that's wrong with this team - inconsistent, found wanting when it gets hard, flashy, and conditional with his effort in game.

I genuinely do not rate him at all.

[bulldogtragic]

This is why stats are useless to some degree.

Who had the better influence? Clearly it was Sweet, English stat padding when the game was well and truly over counts for nothing.

The fact it's even a conversation is an indictment on Tim. He should be dominant against Sweet.

I really hope we move him on, he's everything that's wrong with this team - inconsistent, found wanting when it gets hard, flashy, and conditional with his effort in game.

I genuinely do not rate him at all.

If we can get a top 10 pick in compo (missing finals) and the salary to chase Barass. Then it’s win-win. If Lobb wants to play he’ll play every game next year with us. And actually compete.

I can’t make excuses any more. I was happy to keep him at a price. But I’m firm on wanting to see him go and use that movement to rebalance the list.

[Sedat]

This is why stats are useless to some degree.

Who had the better influence? Clearly it was Sweet, English stat padding when the game was well and truly over counts for nothing.

The fact it's even a conversation is an indictment on Tim. He should be dominant against Sweet.

I really hope we move him on, he's everything that's wrong with this team - inconsistent, found wanting when it gets hard, flashy, and conditional with his effort in game.

I genuinely do not rate him at all.
When there is a future Supercoach Hall of Fame, English will be the first inductee and legend. He always ends up with huge Supercoach numbers which are almost always in sharp contrast to his lack of actual impact on the game.

He's a really 'nice' player. I'm wanting an awful lot more than nice for $1m a season for 5-7 years

[GVGjr]

Sweet did okay but English was the better player on the day. The difference wasn't great though and English should have torched him given he's played just 18 senior games.

[jeemak]

In a lot of ways a ruck is only as influential as his midfielders, or the opposition's will allow him to be. In Sweet's case both ours and Ports made him look really effective early.

Not saying he didn't have some decisive taps, but they were only half the story today.

That doesn't get Tim off the hook though. He should have been prepared for Sweet to want to make a statement and he was too soft in the early parts of the game. If he doesn't get his head into the game he's doing both us and himself a disservice.

[Happy Days]

English cooked him you guys are crazy. There is plenty of other real shit to be mad about.

[SonofScray]

Sweet helped wit h the good start but didn’t have a huge influence beyond highlighting just how little aggression Tim invests into the game.

[bornadog]

English cooked him you guys are crazy. There is plenty of other real shit to be mad about.

My big issue on the day is the midfield. Rozee, Butler and Wines completely took control. Rozee's first quarter with 18 disposals, finished us off

[Go_Dogs]

It was so weird when Darcy started in the centre square for the first contest. When has a club ever done that?

English got the points, Sweet was effective in the middle, Port’s entire midfield made ours look slow and second rate. We should’ve been more powerful and experienced and beaten up on them, instead we seemed overawed by the next tier of the comp coming at us. And not for the first time.

Good on Sweet, but he won’t be their first ruck when they’ve got a full list.

[bornadog]

It was so weird when Darcy started in the centre square for the first contest. When has a club ever done that

Was a strange move to try and unbalance Port, but didn't work. Darcy doesn't have the strength to be a ruckman yet.

[Hotdog60]

It one of those things if it came off, brilliant bit of coaching but it didn't so wear the result.

[mjp]

It one of those things if it came off, brilliant bit of coaching but it didn't so wear the result.

Reliable not Remarkable.

Sorry - this one was one of those ideas that should absolutely been talked about but you don't do it in a critical game.

You have only ONE CHANCE to make a first impression - and your ruckman does that at the first CBD of the day...

[jeemak]

Reliable not Remarkable.

Sorry - this one was one of those ideas that should absolutely been talked about but you don't do it in a critical game.

You have only ONE CHANCE to make a first impression - and your ruckman does that at the first CBD of the day...

I said somewhere this was the game English was looked in the eyes and told he needs to dominate his underling physically and aerobically from the outset.

We were way to clever for ourselves with whatever bullshit the Darcy move was, discussed at length or otherwise.