Change/accountability/who knows best etc

[Rocco Jones]

I don't know what to title this thread, but been having a few thoughts that kind of fit under the same banner.

Looks like we will be changing a few things:
- two assistants with at least one of the replacements being senior/experienced
- possibly one of our assistants moving into a development role and another change to our development coaches
- our fitness guy changing
- feels like a significant shift away from how much power Bevo has over the coaching team, in how it's being formed at least

Feels like a lot of fans think it's not enough change. I think it's clearly a lot of change but how much change doesn't really matter, the right change does. lot of fans

Ultimately it feels like a lot of fans don't have trust in the club. If that's the case and fans are correct, Bevo isn't the problem, it runs a lot deeper.

I see a lot of talking in absolutes about Grant/Baines/Bevo. That they have to go. Not being facetious here. Do fans that believe either of these guys have to go ultimately think they know best/better than the people in charge?

I struggle with speaking in absolutes. That includes fully support of Bevo and co. If you are absolutely wanting Bevo or whoever to go, do you believe you know what's best? Do you think the people are the top are completely inept?

[mjp]

I struggle with speaking in absolutes.

From the top of your post, I totally feel the same.

I certainly can't talk in absolutes. I don't have a wide circle of Dogs friends in Perth but the general vibe is 'The coach must go'. I'm not there on the 'MUST' but I am officially worried that if we don't start well in 2024 'everyone' is coming for us.

That makes footy very UN-FUN.

I'm seriously hoping for a speed-bump free trade period...a controversial trade request (yep, that's your music Bazza!) would send people into a frenzy.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Nice thread.

I think a few have mentioned that we have to back the club to make the right calls. It's all we can do as fans. If they fail in actioning the right change, they'll end up wearing it heavily next year.

I think the mistrust from fans comes from the fact that many of us saw all our issues at least 12 months ago and it appears (at least from the outside) that nothing was seriously done inside the club to address them and we've all had to consequently sit through the same garbage for another season. That brings about the absolutes of sack Bevo, Grant etc.

I'm not exactly one of those who wants to see Bevo or Grant gone no matter what. I just want change or a shift in thinking. In our gameplan. The way we use our players. We desperately need fresh ideas. If Bevo is capable of delivering that then fine. I of course have to trust those that know to make the right calls. Time will tell ultimately.

[Rocco Jones]

I am not trying to have a go at those demanding specific change. I feel the same towards fans who 100% defend the club. Basically, I don't have enough information to be so sure that I want certain people gone. I definitely feel we need change but I do not have the expertise/knowledge/information to be absolute on any of it. And if I truly believed I knew so specifically what was wrong and how to solve it, I'd be demanding a massive overhaul of the board. Well if I was 100% I was right, I'd be hounding the club every day ha!

[Rocco Jones]

Nice thread.

I think a few have mentioned that we have to back the club to make the right calls. It's all we can do as fans. If they fail in actioning the right change, they'll end up wearing it heavily next year.

I think the mistrust from fans comes from the fact that many of us saw all our issues at least 12 months ago and it appears (at least from the outside) that nothing was seriously done inside the club to address them and we've all had to consequently sit through the same garbage for another season. That brings about the absolutes of sack Bevo, Grant etc.

I'm not exactly one of those who wants to see Bevo or Grant gone no matter what. I just want change or a shift in thinking. In our gameplan. The way we use our players. We desperately need fresh ideas. If Bevo is capable of delivering that then fine. I of course have to trust those that know to make the right calls. Time will tell ultimately.

Well put.

Let me say, I have a lot of mistrust in the club at the moment. I just don't know what is wrong. Maybe the assistants are absolutely awful. Maybe the assistants are really good and just scapegoats and it'll get worse. I remember plenty of fans happy to see Hansen and King leave as assistants. Maybe Baines and KWW are absolutely crushing it with the off field stuff.

[bornadog]

A few years ago, on this very forum we had WOOFERs complaining we never change assistants and King, and Hansen were not strong enough, been there too long etc and we had to get new better senior assistants. Woofers were saying no one challenges Bevo etc, etc. Yet as soon as these guys left, we hear that King was the guy challenging Bevo, and we should never have let these two guys go and blame the club.

I feel the same is being said about Bains and Grant, yet 03 one really knows how well they function in their role. We know from the outside looking in that Bains has done an incredible job with Admin and the redevelopment of the VU Whitten Oval - the funding alone of around $70 million is not easy to put together. Internally, how he or Grant operates is a guess, as is Bevo's style.

If we keep losing next year and supporters carry on the way they do, I am out of here and any social media - because as MJP says - it won't be fun.

Not sure I answered the OP - just my two cents worth but for what it's worth, like everyone, I am disappointed we aren't playing this week.

Edit: Wrote this and posted before seeing Rocco's post.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Well put.

Let me say, I have a lot of mistrust in the club at the moment. I just don't know what is wrong. Maybe the assistants are absolutely awful. Maybe the assistants are really good and just scapegoats and it'll get worse. I remember plenty of fans happy to see Hansen and King leave as assistants. Maybe Baines and KWW are absolutely crushing it with the off field stuff.

Yes I certainly don't have a lot of faith in the club right now. We've been stagnant for a long while and haven't appeared to be serious about striving for internally set goals. But as you say, we have no idea what's going on behind doors so we just have to trust (or is it hope?) that the club has now realised the situation it's actually in.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

A few years ago, on this very forum we had WOOFERs complaining we never change assistants and King, and Hansen were not strong enough, been there too long etc and we had to get new better senior assistants. Woofers were saying no one challenges Bevo etc, etc. Yet as soon as these guys left, we hear that King was the guy challenging Bevo, and we should never have let these two guys go and blame the club.

I feel the same is being said about Bains and Grant, yet 03 one really knows how well they function in their role. We know from the outside looking in that Bains has done an incredible job with Admin and the redevelopment of the VU Whitten Oval - the funding alone of around $70 million is not easy to put together. Internally, how he or Grant operates is a guess, as is Bevo's style.

If we keep losing next year and supporters carry on the way they do, I am out of here and any social media - because as MJP says - it won't be fun.

Not sure I answered the OP - just my two cents worth but for what it's worth, like everyone, I am disappointed we aren't playing this week.

Totally agree re the assistants coaches although it was strange to replace 2 experienced assistants with 2 in experienced ones. But it's another reason why the proverbial will hit the fan if that again is the only change we make this off-season.

The rumours about appointing Dew or someone more senior is interesting given many have been calling for such an appointment for years.

[Twodogs]

Personally I think that if you want to change the coach or the footy department or whatever then you have to have a succession plan.

Take Bevo. If you want to sack him then who do we replace him with? Are you happy to take the risk of watching him go to another club and see him coach multiple premierships just because they were capable of supporting him properly while we weren't? From what I see there really isn't an upgrade out there and Bevo is contracted for two more years. Yes he can be frustrating but sometimes that's part of the package that makes him a great coach.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Personally I think that if you want to change the coach or the footy department or whatever then you have to have a succession plan.

Take Bevo. If you want to sack him then who do we replace him with? Are you happy to take the risk of watching him go to another club and see him coach multiple premierships just because they were capable of supporting him properly while we weren't? From what I see there really isn't an upgrade out there and Bevo is contracted for two more years. Yes he can be frustrating but sometimes that's part of the package that makes him a great coach.

Agree with this although we started the review mid season so Hardwick, though unlikely, could have been an option.

I do agree Bevo has earnt the right to have the time to prove himself once more. I just wish he was challenged and supported a year earlier.

[Eastdog]

It is very difficult to know what is going on inside but what I do know is that we need some fresh ideas.

Bevo will be staying but change around him needs to happen that best support him. A change in game plan this off-season would be very good.

Would love to play the way Richmond has in recent years which has been hugely successful in them getting multiple premierships and currently how Collingwood plays. Easier said than done of course and you need a strong fitness base and the right players to do it.

[soupman]

A few years ago, on this very forum we had WOOFERs complaining we never change assistants and King, and Hansen were not strong enough, been there too long etc and we had to get new better senior assistants. Woofers were saying no one challenges Bevo etc, etc. Yet as soon as these guys left, we hear that King was the guy challenging Bevo, and we should never have let these two guys go and blame the club.


I get it, but the reason people wanted new ACs was because the side had clear deficiencies that appeared to be continually getting overlooked, and the most effective way people could see to change the way those decisions were made was to change coaches.

I'm not sure saying these people were wrong when we lost (as in we didn't let these guys go, they chose to go) these coaches and replaced them with inexperienced guys late in the year is fair.

Besides to me as we were then we are ultimately still just trying to fix Bevo without firing him.

[Rocco Jones]

It is very difficult to know what is going on inside but what I do know is that we need some fresh ideas.

Bevo will be staying but change around him needs to happen that best support him. A change in game plan this off-season would be very good.


Totally agree. I guess the point I'm trying to get at is we don't need inside info to know something is wrong. I am sure something is wrong. Just that it is impossible to be absolute in assessing exactly what is/who are in the wrong.

I think a massive part of the temptation in demanding/being sure it's Bevo/Baines/Grant is the quick fix. Get rid of 1-3 guys and we are golden.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Totally agree. I guess the point I'm trying to get at is we don't need inside info to know something is wrong. I am sure something is wrong. Just that it is impossible to be absolute in assessing exactly what is/who are in the wrong.

I think a massive part of the temptation in demanding/being sure it's Bevo/Baines/Grant is the quick fix. Get rid of 1-3 guys and we are golden.

I guess getting rid of 1-3 guys means we can at least rule out who is or isn't the problem. The impact at that level is far greater. Getting rid of a high % of the playing list isn't as practical to see if it's the players fault. (I'm not suggesting this method is effective, just the potential source of people's thinking).

[Go_Dogs]

I haven’t had much bandwidth to think about it over the last few weeks, however I think the internal review outcomes are kept under wraps because so many are staying on. There is no scapegoat. Everyone has an ego/pride (not saying this in a negative context) so completing a review, providing feedback and then making changes to roles / responsibilities / structures is happening.

This is I think what many are finding frustrating. We want some specificity about why things didn’t click this year and we’re not going to get it.

Bring on 2024 I say. A lot of clubs are improving and making ground. It’s not going to be easy to climb back into the 8, but some tweaks to our training and conditioning, some tweaks to our game plan, the message, our personnel both on and off field. A wise man on this site once said things can change quickly in football. Let’s hope that is true for us.

[azabob]

The trust is somewhat broken with me.

I am not after any heads as such but what has frustrated me is 2023 played out exactly like 2022 except this year we missed finals.

How thorough was our 2022 review? How thorough is our 2023 review? Is the club obligated to share the findings to members? Obviously they are not, but surely it is the least they owe members?

It still frustrates me we chose to ignore the 2021 grand final and not review it.

It frustrates the only senior player the match committee dropped during 2023 was Rory Lobb.

It frustrates me the only time we chose to play English forward and Lobb in the ruck was in our last half of 2023.

It frustrates me our minimal list changes over the past few years and now Beveridge is publicly voicing how poor our list depth is.

It frustrates me we could not change our off field culture to keep Dunkley.

It frustrates me that we play role players such as R.Smith, Gowers, McComb sign them to multi year contracts and refuse to play them the very next season.

It frustrates me we did not meet the internal expectations of top four so what are we going to do about it? Unless you are inside the four walls we will not know what we have done until round one in 2024, or it could be deja vu again.

It frustrates me the same leadership group off field and on field have overseen all of the above points.

It frustrates me that I am not inside the four walls but I have to trust the same leaders and process in the hope 2024 is different.

#BeMoreBulldog

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The trust is somewhat broken with me.

I am not after any heads as such but what has frustrated me is 2023 played out exactly like 2022 except this year we missed finals.

How thorough was our 2022 review? How thorough is our 2023 review? Is the club obligated to share the findings to members? Obviously they are not, but surely it is the least they owe members?

It still frustrates me we chose to ignore the 2021 grand final and not review it.

It frustrates the only senior player the match committee dropped during 2023 was Rory Lobb.

It frustrates me the only time we chose to play English forward and Lobb in the ruck was in our last half of 2023.

It frustrates me our minimal list changes over the past few years and now Beveridge is publicly voicing how poor our list depth is.

It frustrates me we could not change our off field culture to keep Dunkley.

It frustrates me that we play role players such as R.Smith, Gowers, McComb sign them to multi year contracts and refuse to play them the very next season.

It frustrates me we did not meet the internal expectations of top four so what are we going to do about it? Unless you are inside the four walls we will not know what we have done until round one in 2024, or it could be deja vu again.

It frustrates me the same leadership group off field and on field have overseen all of the above points.

It frustrates me that I am not inside the four walls but I have to trust the same leaders and process in the hope 2024 is different.

#BeMoreBulldog

This last bit scares me. It was exactly how I felt at the end of 2022.

[FrediKanoute]

I have moved from a wait to a change position. I think we seriously underperformed this year and should have been challenging the top 4 not finishing 9th. I think as the season went on, decisions made by the coaching team/football admin team not just in the current season, but in previous off season's became more apparent. By the end of the season we dropped games to 2 of the bottom 3 teams and had a coach publicly blaming players and their attitudes. It just doesn't sound healthy to me and a fish rots at the head.

Do I believe that tinkering with the assistants will result in measurable change? No, I don't. I think our issues are more fundamental, but not necessarily personnel based, more the way those people are deployed/used/motivated. I will back the club, but will be critical if they start 2024 the way we started 2023.

[GVGjr]

Good posts Aza and Fredi.

We underachieved this year and as Aza pointed out there is conflicting views coming from Beveridge and Power.
There are clear indications that many members are frustrated with our on field performances and that will be something that the club needs to manage.

I've said before that I can't see why we'd consider moving Bains on and with 2 years to go on a contract Beveridge starts next season as the coach. Grant is starting to implement his vision for the footy department and we have to let play out to help judge if he hits the mark. Standing his ground on his mate Smith's departure despite Bevo wishes to keep him is a sign he's prepared to make the hard and emotional calls for the sake of the club. We will have a good idea by the end of October who's coming and staying and we should give him the chance to gets some new assistants and staff in.

[Bullies]

Good posts Aza and Fredi.

We underachieved this year and as Aza pointed out there is conflicting views coming from Beveridge and Power.
There are clear indications that many members are frustrated with our on field performances and that will be something that the club needs to manage.

I've said before that I can't see why we'd consider moving Bains on and with 2 years to go on a contract Beveridge starts next season as the coach. Grant is starting to implement his vision for the footy department and we have to let play out to help judge if he hits the mark. Standing his ground on his mate Smith's departure despite Bevo wishes to keep him is a sign he's prepared to make the hard and emotional calls for the sake of the club. We will have a good idea by the end of October who's coming and staying and we should give him the chance to gets some new assistants and staff in. You make some good points and despite myself saying a change is needed at the top happy now to go into next year with those at the top on notice. I still think you need to take into account the conditions the team trained in this year - they were not up to the standard a professional club needs to be at resulting in fitness issues and discontent amongst players. No excuses this year as they will have the best in the competition in the new year.

[bornadog]

I am all for finding an excuse for bad performance like injuries, lack of experience etc but blaming training facilities is stretching it. Yes there would be some effect but let’s face it the players were not up to the task this year. The close games show we didn’t have the mental aptitude to get the job done. This has to change with players giving greater effort in tight situations.
If they can’t then we need an injection of new players.