Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

[GVGjr]

Perplexing to me is why we have lost ground to the Saints.
They lost their best key forward in King for a lot of the season and only got 7 games from Membrey but did exceptionally well from Mason Wood.
Marshall had a great season in the ruck but he didn't have a lot of support
Their captain Steele didn't have a great by his previous standards and Zak Jones played just 4 games and Hill has returned to some form for their midfield.
Their defense was brilliantly led by Sinclair and Wilkie but they also had disappointing performances from Howard and they lost Coffield for the season.

Where they really had an edge on us with the performances of many youngsters in Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Sharman, Wanganeen-Milera and Caminiti.

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on why the Saints out-performed us this year?

[azabob]

Ross Lyon gets the most out of his players.
He must have a very simple defensive game plan that is easy to understand and implement.
Do we focus too much on individual over team?

[bornadog]

They won one more game than us - hardly went pass us

[Grantysghost]

We haven't they're terrible.

Probably had an easier draw.

[Bulldog Joe]

The answer is pretty simple.
They have a coach who demands better defensive efforts from his players.
They don't concede the easy goals that our game plan has allowed for the last 7 years.

[Grantysghost]

The answer is pretty simple.
They have a coach who demands better defensive efforts from his players.
They don't concede the easy goals that our game plan has allowed for the last 7 years.

Just conceded 5 pretty easy ones.

[GVGjr]

We haven't they're terrible.

Probably had an easier draw.

You mean like beating North, West Coast and Hawthorn? :)

Well they split games with the Hawks like we did, beat North where we won as well and beat West Coast where we lost so against the 3 bottom sides so it's a slight advantage to the Saints there.

I'd rate our list as vastly superior and yet the Saints played above their list quality

They got off to a faster start winning 4 in a row before dropping a close game against the Pies which indicates they might have started the season fitter than we did. Perhaps there is something there.

We brought in the experienced Lobb, Jones along with Baker where they brought in Cordy and that might be about it so advantage Doggies there.

We were ahead of them at the end of 2022 and behind them in the end of 2023. I agree with you that their list isn't impressive so why have we lost some ground too them?

[bulldogtragic]

Well someone had to get embarrassed in a cut throat final. Just swapped blue for black in the jumper.

[Grantysghost]

I don't think we have.

They won one more game.

Don't think they'll make finals next season

Ross' game plan is seriously being destroyed in a modern game here.

I think you're right with the fast start G. That new coach bounce got them over the line.

[GVGjr]

I don't think we have.

They won one more game.

Don't think they'll make finals next season

Ross' game plan is seriously being destroyed in a modern game here.

So if it's as simple was that, lets change the question slightly and ask why are we on a somewhat level field as they Saints?

I'm looking at the Saints today and I'm thinking we have more match winners than they do and it's annoying to see them in the finals getting thrashed by a team we had beat up in Ballarat after a strong lead and a couple of injuries wrecked it for us.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Says more about us than them.

We're a very ordinary outfit as demonstrated by the last 2 years.

[jeemak]

At some point the hyper-analysis of a shit year turns into straight up masochism. If we hadn't reached that point already, we're there now.

[Grantysghost]

So if it's as simple was that, lets change the question slightly and ask why are we on a somewhat level field as they Saints?

I'm looking at the Saints today and I'm thinking we have more match winners than they do and it's annoying to see them in the finals getting thrashed by a team we had beat up in Ballarat after a strong lead and a couple of injuries wrecked it for us.

Ah.

Well. They maybe performed at 110 percent we 90?

Why... Um.

I could guess everyone on the same page, new coach and ideas, players wanting to impress etc.

They lost to Hawks. Fell across the line v Eagles 8 points and fell across the line v North by 8 points.

Didn't beat anyone of note.

You could compare 17 teams to us at the moment and probably find a reason they were better this season.

[macca]

So if it's as simple was that, lets change the question slightly and ask why are we on a somewhat level field as they Saints?

I'm looking at the Saints today and I'm thinking we have more match winners than they do and it's annoying to see them in the finals getting thrashed by a team we had beat up in Ballarat after a strong lead and a couple of injuries wrecked it for us.
They got more improvement from their youngsters and recycle players . They have done very well out of their mature picks in : stocker, Wood , shaman , Wilkie , even Cody
Ross Lyon gets the best out of limited players

[Mofra]

They did a lot more running than us during pre-season and got a fair jump on the competition over the first two months.
They were brought back to the pack pretty quickly but those early wins got them into the 8

[Bullies]

We haven't they're terrible.

Probably had an easier draw. Agree. I also wouldn't want that crap each week the way Lyon coaches. It will not win you a flag but keep you in every game.

[Scorlibo]

They did a lot more running than us during pre-season and got a fair jump on the competition over the first two months.
They were brought back to the pack pretty quickly but those early wins got them into the 8

This makes some sense to me. That game in round 2 made me question our aerobic fitness base because we were getting outworked on the spread consistently. Felt like they had three or four more players on the field.

[Twodogs]

In short they got their structures better than we did when it matteref most.They defended well and their forwards worked hard to keep the ball in their zone on the odd occasion it got into their forward 50.

I couldn't cope with watching Rossball week after week though. I like winning but their gamestyle is just turgid at times.

[GVGjr]

They did a lot more running than us during pre-season and got a fair jump on the competition over the first two months.
They were brought back to the pack pretty quickly but those early wins got them into the 8

There could be something in that for us to consider. Granted it's hard to maintain but we did fade late in the season anyway.

[Stevo]

Did we get as fit as the Saints or even other teams? The new facilities cant come along quick enough for us.

[Grantysghost]

Did we get as fit as the Saints or even other teams? The new facilities cant come along quick enough for us.

Footscray trained at the same place.

[bornadog]

Footscray trained at the same place.

Yep. Not an excuse

[GVGjr]

Footscray trained at the same place.

It took a while for Footscray to get on that run though but the no home ground to play on couldn't have helped.
I suspect training at Skinner wouldn't have impacted Footscray listed players like it did with the seniors given their training sessions aren't as long or intense but they would have have had less Bulldog list players to choose from.

[GVGjr]

Did we get as fit as the Saints or even other teams? The new facilities cant come along quick enough for us.

I think it's a fair assumption that a few teams jumped ahead of us in the fitness stakes and the niggling injuries we suffered in the preseason training on a harder than ideal surface wouldn't have helped us to have a fast start for the season.
The elite surface of the upgraded WO will be welcomed by the players.

[jeemak]

They had two All Australian defenders control their defence this year.

We couldn't get any continuity from our best two defenders in Jones and Richards. And outside of that we missed a lot of JJ and had patchy input from everyone else.

I don't know how many teams that have had two All Australian defenders have had non-finals years.

[Happy Days]

We play them tomorrow we win by 6 goals.

Callum Wilkie served me my coffee this morning.

[Grantysghost]

I think it's a fair assumption that a few teams jumped ahead of us in the fitness stakes and the niggling injuries we suffered in the preseason training on a harder than ideal surface wouldn't have helped us to have a fast start for the season.
The elite surface of the upgraded WO will be welcomed by the players.

Have we changed fitness staff?

[GVGjr]

Have we changed fitness staff?

I'm not aware of any announcements about changes to the fitness team.
Until this season with all the niggling injuries I've always felt like our teams have been fit enough. Is it a one off season or we potentially behind some other teams in terms of being at the cutting edge of training programs?

[GVGjr]

They had two All Australian defenders control their defence this year.

We couldn't get any continuity from our best two defenders in Jones and Richards. And outside of that we missed a lot of JJ and had patchy input from everyone else.

I don't know how many teams that have had two All Australian defenders have had non-finals years.

You might be on to something here.

Last year we had Dale and Daniel as quality contributors in the back line as well.
Daniel got moved around a bit to plug some holes and Dale had a good enough season.
JJ has had a tough two years with injuries and only played 8 game in 2022 and 11 this year.

Probably a lack of continuity in the back half didn't help our season.

When we compare our forward line to the Saints we were able to keep our main 4 on the ground for most of the season (Naughton, Marra, Lobb and Weightman) where they struggled with the availability of King and Membrey only getting a combined 18 games from them.

[1eyedog]

Even Henry chose them over us.

[G-Mo77]

Even Henry chose them over us.

Only players on their last contract want to come here nowdays.

[GVGjr]

Even Henry chose them over us.

Well that might be a blessing. We wouldn't have the the pick 15 to 25 that apparently Freo wants.

[GVGjr]

Only players on their last contract want to come here nowdays.

In terms of higher profile players that's been one of our challenges for a long while.

[jazzadogs]

I think it's a fair assumption that a few teams jumped ahead of us in the fitness stakes and the niggling injuries we suffered in the preseason training on a harder than ideal surface wouldn't have helped us to have a fast start for the season.
The elite surface of the upgraded WO will be welcomed by the players.

I've seen this a few times but... Nobody has actually trained on it yet? How do we know it's elite? Wasn't Skinner upgraded to be 'elite' as well?

[ledge]

I've seen this a few times but... Nobody has actually trained on it yet? How do we know it's elite? Wasn't Skinner upgraded to be 'elite' as well?

We went back to training on it the last few weeks I believe.
Skinner upgrade was not elite it was just updated as in ground surface and a running track around it but a cricket club plays there in summer so I would suggest that was the reason for the hardness in the middle.

[GVGjr]

I've seen this a few times but... Nobody has actually trained on it yet? How do we know it's elite? Wasn't Skinner upgraded to be 'elite' as well?
Skinner Reserve is a decent facility but far from elite.
The surface was very hard and contributed to a number of niggling injuries. It only started to improve after Xmas and the another step forward in mid Feb. The players were concerned with how firm the surface was from the early days.
We started training back on the new WO surface in April I think and it was welcomed by the players.

[jazzadogs]

Thanks, I thought the whole place was still under construction and didn't realise they were training on it already.

[GVGjr]

Thanks, I thought the whole place was still under construction and didn't realise they were training on it already.

You're mostly right, it's still a construction site but the admin area and the player gym are accessible as is access to the new and improved playing surface. The AFLW team can train there as well.

[Sedat]

They won one more game than us - hardly went pass us
That's literally the definition of going past us. Going on that metric, so have Carlton and so have GWS. Port as well.

We have so much work to do in many aspects of our footy dept operations just to hold our ground, let alone climb back into contention after 2 years of sub-par output.

[GVGjr]

That's the literally definition of going past us. Going on that metric, so have Carlton and so have GWS. Port as well.

We have so much work to do in many aspects of our footy dept operations just to hold our ground, let alone climb back into contention after 2 years of sub-par output.

We won one more game than the Saints in 2022 and one less than them this year.
It might be viewed as just a two game turnaround but I really don't rate their playing list so I was more or less hoping to get some ideas on why we weren't a clearly better team this year.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Remember the beat us by 50 pts or so?

[Ozza]

The saints outperformed us because they are far better coached than we are.

We have a miles better list, a lot more talent - but we are easy to play against. Teams know that they just need to sweat on us making a mistake and then they can score easily out the back. They know we will be over represented at the contest, so they can control the set up behind the ball. We are really really easy to play against.

Like him or loathe him - Ross Lyon teams are hard to play against. I don't think an MCG final did them any favours given they barely play there, and this stretched their team defense yesterday - but throughout the year, they were pretty hard to move the ball against. Whereas we are always on a knife's edge - even when attacking, if we make a disposal error inside our F50, the ball just springs out and the defenders are vulnerable.

They've met and exceeded us this year because they have a far superior game plan.

[jazzadogs]

Remember the beat us by 50 pts or so?

And I mean...this is the difference. If we won that game, then at the end of the season we're the team who has won one more game.

Looking at pure results, they started the season hot, we started terribly. Our middle of the year was miles better than theirs. They snuck in to finals ahead of us, and then got smacked around by GWS. On pure results, it's not THAT significant.

But as G and others have said, when you factor in experience, talent and injuries we underperformed and they over performed.

They had young players (NWM, Owens in particular) who played above their level and then a few older guys who had career best seasons (Wilkie, Marshall, Wood). They also had some solid role players who had a clear understanding of their role - Butler as a pressure forward was elite for tackles inside 50, Hill on the wing was elite for metres gained, Caminiti came in off no pre season and was elite for forward pressure as a tall forward.

They had a clear and consistent game plan which the players seemed to understand. It was not always pretty (although sometimes it was very entertaining!) but it was very effective.

[bornadog]

That's literally the definition of going past us. Going on that metric, so have Carlton and so have GWS. Port as well.

We have so much work to do in many aspects of our footy dept operations just to hold our ground, let alone climb back into contention after 2 years of sub-par output.

Spin it any way you want, one game is one game. GWS belted them on Saturday.

I really don't rate Saints at all.

[mjp]

Here's a "I love Bevo, but..." post.

It's because Lyon has great history (and did it again this year) of:

1/. Building strong relationships with young players and coaxing consistent performances from them.
2/. Defining CLEAR roles for fringe players and getting them to play 'FOR HIM'. (Yep, that's your music Mason Wood).

[whythelongface]

People fawn over Ross Lyon. No doubt he has done well with Saints list, but just wondering what Ross has actually won?

[Twodogs]

People fawn over Ross Lyon. No doubt he has done well with Saints list, but just wondering what Ross has actually won?

Had some success as an assistant at Sydney but apart from that nothing.

[Mofra]

People fawn over Ross Lyon. No doubt he has done well with Saints list, but just wondering what Ross has actually won?
4 Grand Finals - and only a bad bounce away from a flag.
In 2015 we would have crawled over broken glass to find a coach that could win 4 prelims.

[bornadog]

4 Grand Finals - and only a bad bounce away from a flag.
In 2015 we would have crawled over broken glass to find a coach that could win 4 prelims.

Technically 4 but really 3 years due to the draw.

[1eyedog]

4 Grand Finals - and only a bad bounce away from a flag.
In 2015 we would have crawled over broken glass to find a coach that could win 4 prelims.

No one remembers a losing Grand Final and no one wants to watch one.

[jeemak]

People fawn over Ross Lyon. No doubt he has done well with Saints list, but just wondering what Ross has actually won?

The PR battle.

[Grantysghost]

People fawn over Ross Lyon. No doubt he has done well with Saints list, but just wondering what Ross has actually won?

Nothing.

Well. He knifed Mark Harvey, and turned the game into something unwatchable.

Actually he was a pretty good player for the Roys.

[GVGjr]

Spin it any way you want, one game is one game. GWS belted them on Saturday.

I really don't rate Saints at all.

Neither do I and yet....

They missed their key forwards, have a poorer list and somehow did better than us.

[Eastdog]

We lost quite a number of games by a few points. I'm thinking we need to be better in these situations when we get a good lead and try and maintain that lead when the momentum swings against us which has happened far too often. Convert some of those close losses by under a goal to wins and it is a different story.

The instability to our back half hasn't helped and also while our forward line looks quite potent we need get better with set shot goal kicking. The goal kicking cost us in the game against the Cats at Marvel Stadium in the middle of the season.

The Saints had an excellent start to the season and that will always hold you in good stead in playing finals. They went back into the pack again and just made finals and were pretty level win loss ratio with us.

You need to be consistent throughout the whole season to finish top 4. You could say 2016 and 2021 15-7 win loss record in both were quite consistent despite no top 4 finish and we won a flag and made GF in both those seasons.

[Topdog]

Neither do I and yet....

They missed their key forwards, have a poorer list and somehow did better than us.

We lost ground to the competition, why single out Saints.

[GVGjr]

We lost ground to the competition, why single out Saints.

I was them them play and thinking our team lines up so much better and they were in the finals and we missed it.

[Sedat]

4 Grand Finals - and only a bad bounce away from a flag.
And an arsey Scarlett toe-poke from winning 2 flags.

[Sedat]

Spin it any way you want, one game is one game. GWS belted them on Saturday.

I really don't rate Saints at all.
Thank you for proving my point.

[Grantysghost]

And an arsey Scarlett toe-poke from winning 2 flags.

Just checking the records again.

It just says 0 flags, nothing about bad luck ;)

You could argue that Saints side underperformed by not winning one.

[Bigdog]

They were the best side I saw live all year. They completely smashed us in every department. I don?t think any other side did what they did to us.

Their young brigade is also very good. When you have a talented young core they play with freedom and enthusiasm.

Unfortunately, our young players aren?t ready or are not very good so we did not have the opportunity to play them. I am hopeful we are in a position we can see 2-3 debutants round 1 next year. This can go along way to re-energising the playing group.

The key to our improvement next year will fall on:

Our first draft pick
arty jones
clarke
bendendo
gallagher
khamis - if he stays.
darcy
JOD
Garcia
cleary
west

We probably need 5-7 of these guys to come on to be a shout. If we continue with the same mix we will continue to play stale football and it will be a long year. We need to move passed slow, thumbly, in-efficient kicks in role playing positions.

I don?t see us doing much trade wise.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just checking the records again.

It just says 0 flags, nothing about bad luck ;)

You could argue that Saints side underperformed by not winning one.

Also if they win 09 they probably dont come back with the same motivation in 2010. Too many what ifs. It's 0 flags! They're also 1pt away from having 0 flags in their history.

[Ozza]

Regardless of whether you wish to rate the saints, not rate the saints, and the same for Ross Lyon - the stark reality is that they don't have as much talent as we do and the problem lies with us that we are even in the same conversation as the saints right now.

In my opinion, if you think Beveridge is coaching well, managing players well and maximising the talent at his disposal over the last 2 seasons (at least) - then we couldn't be further apart.
We have a few list management issues - but we have far too many players who have either stalled or gone backwards, I think this point is undeniable.
If we are using the saints as a comparison - they have many players (of all talent levels) who have been able to find their best football under their new coach.

[Mofra]

Just checking the records again.

It just says 0 flags, nothing about bad luck ;)

You could argue that Saints side underperformed by not winning one.
You need to get into the position to win a flag before you can actually win one.
Ross can coach.

[Grantysghost]

You need to get into the position to win a flag before you can actually win one.
Ross can coach.

I don't think the argument is can he coach, it's more what has he done to deserve the fawning some do over his ability.
Rodney Eade doesn't get the same adulation for eg.

Bevo is a better coach no doubt imo , however you wouldn't hear that anywhere.

How you don't win a flag with that Saints side he had.

I think his best work was at Freo early.

[Sedat]

I don't think the argument is can he coach, it's more what has he done to deserve the fawning some do over his ability.
Rodney Eade doesn't get the same adulation for eg.

Bevo is a better coach no doubt imo , however you wouldn't hear that anywhere.

How you don't win a flag with that Saints side he had.

I think his best work was at Freo early.
It's an interesting discussion around coaches and their tactical ability on match days vs their ability to motivate/inspire the playing ground during the week/in pre-season to get their complete buy-in. Does anyone really think Goodwin and Fagan are tactical geniuses who are superior on match-days to the likes of Ross Lyon and Chris Scott? Yet there is a real chance Fagan will join Goodwin as a premiership coach by the end of this month, something Lyon never achieved.

Bevo excels in the latter and probably not the former, although he was pretty switched on tactically in 2015-16 IMO. Like the entire club, Bevo needs a refresh and rethink about what and how to achieve the ultimate success, because the last 2 years have been very underwhelming (relative to internal expectations and compared to the gradual ascent from 2018 to 2021).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think it's hard to argue against the fact our list is better and has a lot more star talent than the saints' yet they played finals and we didn't. They outperformed us.

Simply put, we're not getting enough out of our group. The saints are maximising their output. The reasons we're underperforming will be numerous and varied and exactly what the review should uncover.

[doggies ftw]

They won one more game than us - hardly went pass us

Mate they played in a final, coming from far behind us with a far inferior list.

They absolutely went past us come on 😂

I think the answer here is pretty obvious really

[Eastdog]

It is just very frustrating as I rate the quality of our list and that the Saints who don't have the greatest list do better and make the finals and they had a number of injuries at the start of season. We need a lot of our fringe players to play a role in the team for us to go forward next season.

[jeemak]

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

[doggies ftw]

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

How much did he even have to do with this in hindsight? As it stands we’ve been hands down the least tactically competent team in the league for 2 years since a lot of his support left. Doesn’t bode well.

[jeemak]

How much did he even have to do with this in hindsight? As it stands we’ve been hands down the least tactically competent team in the league for 2 years since a lot of his support left. Doesn’t bode well.

By what measure?

[doggies ftw]

By what measure?
Well it’s obviously subjective but it’s clear as day for everyone to see - underpeforming massively relative to the list, losing close games/unable to hold a lead, dominating key fundamental statistics weekly and still losing games, massive failure in the more obvious tactics ie back off 5 last year. Unable to defend opposition transition from fwd to def, unable to stop momentum fueled run-ons.

These are all MASSIVE tactical failures, yes he seemed ahead of the game in 2015/16, considering how far off it he is right now either mentally he’s lost it or maybe there was some more contributing factors in the past that we’ve all overlooked. Who knows but either way as it stands we are being setup to fail.

[azabob]

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

I don't share the view Beveridge isn't a great tactician as quite frankly I have no idea, but has the narrative been formed because King and Hansen leaving coincided with us dropping down the ladder?

Which is quite strange considering majority of supporters were not sold on our assistant coaches pre 20021!

[Sedat]

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.
In the last 2 years we are losing the same way and we are not moving the magnets when it is obvious that momentum has shifted in game - only West Coast and North have conceded more 5+ goal run-ons to opposition than we have in that time.

I reckon Bevo would be the first to admit his match-day coaching in 2022-23 isn't quite as sharp as it was in 2015-16, or even 2019-21. We of course also have system and personnel issues as well - there's a lot to fix this off-season.

I also think motivational/buy-in is severely underrated in a senior coach, and Bevo clearly has been elite in this area for most of his tenure. He still obviously has the players on-side now.

[Mofra]

I don't share the view Beveridge isn't a great tactician as quite frankly I have no idea, but has the narrative been formed because King and Hansen leaving coincided with us dropping down the ladder?

Which is quite strange considering majority of supporters were not sold on our assistant coaches pre 20021!
Well, taking a dogs breakfast of a club to a finals appearance in 2015, the a flag in 2016, would speak to at least some tactical ability.

I do wonder whether coaches now have less influence than they once did given the myriad of rules designed to take away from in-game flexibility, primarily the third-man up rule in ruck contests and the 6-6-6. List quality, and having that quality spread evenly across the ground, is more important than it ever has been.

I don't think our list is anywhere near as good as some suggest - there's not a single team in the 8 without a 'better than average' intercept defender, small lockdown defender and pure crumbing small forward in the best 22. We have holes that should be easy to fix, but they're still holes.

[doggies ftw]

Well, taking a dogs breakfast of a club to a finals appearance in 2015, the a flag in 2016, would speak to at least some tactical ability.

I do wonder whether coaches now have less influence than they once did given the myriad of rules designed to take away from in-game flexibility, primarily the third-man up rule in ruck contests and the 6-6-6. List quality, and having that quality spread evenly across the ground, is more important than it ever has been.

I don't think our list is anywhere near as good as some suggest - there's not a single team in the 8 without a 'better than average' intercept defender, small lockdown defender and pure crumbing small forward in the best 22. We have holes that should be easy to fix, but they're still holes.

Richards is ranked elite for intercept defenders, and Jones above avg intercept marks.

Sure there’s holes in the team of course there is, but also there’s not a team in the 8 who has the AA ruckman or best player in the comp in the midfield. Very very few teams who have had their tall forwards contribute over 100 goals etc

All well and good to pick out a couple of random holes but there’s also clear strengths on our list too, doesn’t matter what way you spin it not making the finals is a MASSIVE underachievement

[Uninformed]

The new coach and assistants would have invigorated the Saints. Whether that continues next year with a slightly tougher draw will be the test for them. They also seemed fitter.

Our list is better than theirs, but we just seemed to have an off year. We lost the close ones. We lost Richards and Jones. Lobb took a while to settle in. Our forwards kicked too many points.

We also failed to implement the way we trained in transition and defensive method during the off season. I think we only had a couple of really impressive games during 2023. Perseverance should fix most of that for next year.

To me we seem a couple of Clay Smith/Liam Picken types short. We need to be harder!

[Grantysghost]

The new coach and assistants would have invigorated the Saints. Whether that continues next year with a slightly tougher draw will be the test for them. They also seemed fitter.

Our list is better than theirs, but we just seemed to have an off year. We lost the close ones. We lost Richards and Jones. Lobb took a while to settle in. Our forwards kicked too many points.

We also failed to implement the way we trained in transition and defensive method during the off season. I think we only had a couple of really impressive games during 2023. Perseverance should fix most of that for next year.

To me we seem a couple of Clay Smith/Liam Picken types short. We need to be harder!

Question is.

1. Which list would you prefer?
2. Which coach would you prefer?
3. Simon Leathlean.

The Aints are on struggle Street for a very long time.

[Uninformed]

Question is.

1. Which list would you prefer?
2. Which coach would you prefer?
3. Simon Leathlean.


The Aints are on struggle Street for a very long time.

1. Ours
2. Bevo
3. Ameet

Agree with the Saints. I don't think Ross is the answer and they have a worse list than when he was there before. Don't know much about Leathlean, whereas Ameet seems to have done well with our membership.

[macca]

1. Ours , but we need to stop recruiting the fringe types
2. Bevo+ some assistance to Challenge him and the playing group to switch on and be angry
3. Rhetorical question

[G-Mo77]

Question is.

1. Which list would you prefer?
2. Which coach would you prefer?
3. Simon Leathlean.

The Aints are on struggle Street for a very long time.

1. Ours, we need to get some decent young options at the end of it though.

2. Neither. Their list is inferior to ours yet they played finals. A tougher draw next year might bring it back to level. I think Lyon can get every little bit out of his players but just hasn't got enough tools to go much further. Our coach is out of ideas and is stale, players don't play for him, he needs to go.
3. Who?

[Dogs 24/7]

We have lost ground to a few teams not just the Saints but given their injuries and poor list its concerning.
Why have we also lost so much ground to Carlton given our list stacks up against them more evenly is something to ponder?

[jeemak]

It's interesting who we lost ground to, versus who we gained against.

We've gained ground versus last year's grand finalists, the team that defeated us in an elimination final and Richmond. Yet lost ground to Port, Carlton and St Kilda.

Versus 2021 we're trending downwards, though versus 2022 we've essentially stagnated. 2024 will really show whether what we're seeing is a genuine trend or an adjustment.

[azabob]

It's interesting who we lost ground to, versus who we gained against.

We've gained ground versus last year's grand finalists, the team that defeated us in an elimination final and Richmond. Yet lost ground to Port, Carlton and St Kilda.

Versus 2021 we're trending downwards, though versus 2022 we've essentially stagnated. 2024 will really show whether what we're seeing is a genuine trend or an adjustment.

Stop being so pragmatic. The way you take the emotion out of an emotive game is next level.

Strangely enough when round one comes around in 2024 I would say we are on the same level as Melbourne, Geelong, Port Adelaide, St.Kilda and Sydney.

[MrMahatma]

Stop being so pragmatic. The way you take the emotion out of an emotive game is next level.

Strangely enough when round one comes around in 2024 I would say we are on the same level as Melbourne, Geelong, Port Adelaide, St.Kilda and Sydney.

When round 1, 2024 comes around, we're flag faves. At least in my mind!

[jeemak]

Stop being so pragmatic. The way you take the emotion out of an emotive game is next level.

Strangely enough when round one comes around in 2024 I would say we are on the same level as Melbourne, Geelong, Port Adelaide, St.Kilda and Sydney.

I just get all of my emotion out in the match day threads (you've seen my toddler like histrionics there, no doubt) and then for the most part think about things in as much of a balanced way as possible.

[EasternWest]

I just get all of my emotion out in the match day threads (you've seen my toddler like histrionics there, no doubt) and then for the most part think about things in as much of a balanced way as possible.

Sorry, is that what you plan to do?

[jeemak]

Sorry, is that what you plan to do?

Ha, it's all about perspective.

[Uninformed]

There is one facet where I thought we lost ground against everyone: the drop off in form of Jack Macrae. It is not a criticism because I love him as a player, but I felt he was way less influential this year. Does anyone have an insight into why this was the case? My assumption has been that he was carrying an injury, but I haven't seen any confirmation of this.

[jeemak]

There is one facet where I thought we lost ground against everyone: the drop off in form of Jack Macrae. It is not a criticism because I love him as a player, but I felt he was way less influential this year. Does anyone have an insight into why this was the case? My assumption has been that he was carrying an injury, but I haven't seen any confirmation of this.

It's a good call out, and as part of my "how we improve next year" view is we need him to trim up and get his running again, but importantly, get into the rotations.

Treloar is a better option for the half forward/ extra mid role that Jacko played this year. I'd swap them essentially and have him in the role that made him a dominant player of the competition.

[jazzadogs]

It's a good call out, and as part of my "how we improve next year" view is we need him to trim up and get his running again, but importantly, get into the rotations.

Treloar is a better option for the half forward/ extra mid role that Jacko played this year. I'd swap them essentially and have him in the role that made him a dominant player of the competition.

I thought we improve by trading him?

My issue with Treloar for Macrae is that we lose a lot of our pace (which is already a problem). I think it's just changing things from 70% CBAs for Bont, Libba and Treloar - increase the splits, increase the variety. Jacko should definitely be one who benefits from that.

[jeemak]

I thought we improve by trading him?

My issue with Treloar for Macrae is that we lose a lot of our pace (which is already a problem). I think it's just changing things from 70% CBAs for Bont, Libba and Treloar - increase the splits, increase the variety. Jacko should definitely be one who benefits from that.

Jacko is tougher than Treloar at the source and in my view better at extracting and distributing by hand. Whereas Treloar is better at moving away from the contest.

Quickness inside is about ball to hand or ball to foot, and I think that's where Adam is a bit lacking compared to Jack.

[Grantysghost]

There is one facet where I thought we lost ground against everyone: the drop off in form of Jack Macrae. It is not a criticism because I love him as a player, but I felt he was way less influential this year. Does anyone have an insight into why this was the case? My assumption has been that he was carrying an injury, but I haven't seen any confirmation of this.

There defintely was a planned move of Jack outside of the stoppage. He played mainly as a half forward pushing up.
So my guess is the coaches saw an issue with speed/spread from stoppage and Jacko sacrificed his one wood in consult with the coaches in line with this new proposal.
In hindsight I don't think it worked. Jack is 3x AA for a reason (remember Treloar has 0)and that's because he's a gun extractor / distributor.
Treloar was good, we just need to get the balance right next season with more rotations I think.

I think Rocco pointed out there were only a handful of guys with more than 2 centre bounce attendances.

[macca]

There defintely was a planned move of Jack outside of the stoppage. He played mainly as a half forward pushing up.
So my guess is the coaches saw an issue with speed/spread from stoppage and Jacko sacrificed his one wood in consult with the coaches in line with this new proposal.
In hindsight I don't think it worked. Jack is 3x AA for a reason (remember Treloar has 0)and that's because he's a gun extractor / distributor.
Treloar was good, we just need to get the balance right next season with more rotations I think.

I think Rocco pointed out there were only a handful of guys with more than 2 centre bounce attendances.

I dont understand this coaching move . Why would you move Macrae out of his strength to play him fwd when its not his strength ? Is it because we have no else who can play that role ? We got smashed so many times this season with teams winning the clearances and getting a run of 3-5 goals , due to poor defense midfieldrs.

I dont get it .. play to your strengths .