It is time for Jobe Watson to be reinstated

[GVGjr]

It is time for Jobe Watson to be reinstated as the 2012 Brownlow Medal winner, writes Mike Sheahan (https://www.codesports.com.au/afl/it-is-time-for-jobe-watson-to-be-reinstated-as-the-2012-brownlow-medal-winner-writes-mike-sheahan/news-story/66d6aa526947f25ca4183cc0bad361de)

Jobe Watson was a scapegoat. A young man who bore the brunt of the blame for his club?s horrendous leadership. It's time to give him back his Brownlow Medal, writes Mike Sheahan.

The 100-year history of the Brownlow Medal is littered with quirks, mysteries and mistakes, yet it survives as the most glamorous individual award in football.

While the coaches and the players are regarded within the industry as more credible judges than the umpires, who determine the Brownlow, it's "Charlie" that carries the most cachet ... by the length of the MCG.

Ask any of your football mates who won the 2022 Brownlow and they will instantly respond with Patrick Cripps.

Then ask them who won the Players Association Most Valuable Player award and the coaches? award that year and they will guess: Cripps? ... Or was it Bontempelli? ? Or Petracca? Or Oliver? Maybe it was Neale?

The 2022 AFLPA award was won by Andrew Brayshaw, the Coaches? Association Player of the Year was shared by Touk Miller and Clayton Oliver. See what I mean?

That's what a history of 100 years and a glitzy, televised medal count will do.

That's also why it's so important to redress the injustice perpetrated on Jobe Watson after he won the 2012 Brownlow.

The then Essendon captain polled 30 votes to win the count by four. Few of us were surprised.

Four years on, the AFL, desperate to be seen to be responding responsibly to the Essendon supplements scandal of the time, stripped Watson of his medal. Runners-up in 2012, Sam Mitchell and Trent Cotchin, were elevated to joint winners.

Watson and 33 others Essendon players from 2012 were found guilty of using the banned peptide Thymosin beta 4 and suspended for 12 months.

All these years later, the AFL still hasn?t offered any evidence that the Essendon players took performance-enhancing drugs.

It's time to correct a miscarriage of justice, it's time to reinstate Watson as a Brownlow Medallist.

Watson was a scapegoat, the young man who bore the brunt of the blame for his club?s horrendous leadership of the day.

Essendon's chairman at the time of his suspension, Lindsay Tanner, said: "The club takes responsibility for placing Jobe in this position and unreservedly apologises to him and his family.

"Jobe is a person of the highest integrity and character and has the total support and admiration of our membership, staff, executive and board."

Former AFL chief executive officer Andrew Demetriou, who read the votes the night Watson won, told me this week: "It's one of the great tragedies of Australian sport that Jobe Watson lost his Brownlow Medal.

"It would have been interesting to see what might have happened if certain people had fought a bit harder to support him."

My guess is Demetriou?s ?certain people? were the AFL administration of the day (He moved on after the 2014 season).

AFLPA chief executive Paul Marsh said this week: ?We said strongly at the time that Jobe shouldn?t have lost his Brownlow, and maintain that. The same applies to all of the Essendon players impacted through this saga.

"This was an issue of the club?s making and the players were the victims. Sadly there is so much damage that can't be undone."

In January 2016, three judges of the Court of Arbitration for Sport, an organisation based in Europe, had determined the 34 Essendon players violated the AFL?s anti-doping policy.

Yet, in March the previous year, the AFL anti-doping Tribunal had handed down a "not guilty" judgment on all the available evidence. The World Anti-Doping Authority appealed the AFL decision to CAS and won.

How, then, did the Court of Arbitration find to the contrary? Who knows, but WADA wanted blood.

Administering mysterious pharmaceuticals en masse to players off site doesn?t sound kosher, but that doesn?t mean it makes them perform beyond their natural capabilities.

There is a school of thought that something had to be fishy when Watson suddenly went from a hardworking plodder to an elite midfielder. The theory was he must have done something radical to make the transition.

Yet Watson won Essendon's best and fairest award in 2009-10, well before anyone other than Stephen Dank knew anything of AOD 9604 and Thymosin beta 4.

He finished top two in the club best and fairest award five times from 2006-13, winning in three years. He was captain for six years. That's not the cv of a plodder ... or a bloke who would be party to cheating.

Not one of my acquaintance thinks anything other than Watson was a scapegoat.

Andrew Dillon's ascension to the CEO?s office at the AFL offers the opportunity to right the wrong. The centenary of the Brownlow also makes the timing perfect. As does the clear softening in the AFL's penalties regime on the use of prohibited substances.

There's an obvious problem, of course, if Watson regains his medal and Brownlow Medal status.

What would it mean for Mitchell and Cotchin, currently listed as Brownlow winners for 2012?

My answer to that is we settle on three winners for that year, with an asterisk explaining why Mitchell and Cotchin tied with a player who scored four more votes.

The only thing worse than getting something wrong is the failure to correct an obvious mistake.

Official publications explain why Corey McKernan (1996) and Chris Grant (1997) didn't win the medal when they topped the Brownlow votes table (McKernan tied). It's because they didn't meet the "fairest" element of the criteria ... with McKernan rubbed out for the innocuous offence of tripping.

And, if Watson were seen to be exonerated, would it expose the league to financial claims by the players rubbed out for a year?

One other thing. If Watson - and his long-time teammate Dustin Fletcher, who was at Essendon in 2012 - remain tainted by the supplements saga, surely that would jeopardise their claims for a place in the AFL Hall of Fame, as their playing records justify.

That would be a travesty for both players, Essendon champions and greats of the game.

Come on, Dills, extend the olive branch to Jobe; football fans will love you.

[GVGjr]

Thoughts?

[Bulldog Joe]

Why do we still get media apologists for all things Essendon.

The club and players were found to have contravened rules by an authority with more clout than the AFL.

LET IT BE

[Grantysghost]

As long as we take it off Cotchin I'm absolutely on board.

[hujsh]

Come on, Dills, extend the olive branch to Jobe; football fans will love you.

vomit

[Hotdog60]

F##k him.....

[hujsh]

This is exactly the issue we need to talk about and that I think about regularly.

Truly the worst injustice in the AFL landscape, right Clarko?

[GVGjr]

As long as we take it off Cotchin I'm absolutely on board.

Both Cotchin and Mitchell have been part of premierships so I'm not sure how the Brownlow rates for them.

[Twodogs]

This is exactly the issue we need to talk about and that I think about regularly.

Truly the worst injustice in the AFL landscape, right Clarko?

Yeah I still haven't properly gotten over it. I'm planning on abandoning my campaign to get Kelvin Templeton into the AFL HOF in favour of getting Jobe his Brownlow back. I know which one is the bigger injustice. ��

Anyone want to join me in glueing body parts to AFL House on Monday?

[soupman]

Ask any of your football mates who won the 2022 Brownlow and they will instantly respond with Patrick Cripps.


Honestly much like the MVP award I think a lot of us would be guessing still.


Four years on, the AFL, desperate to be seen to be responding responsibly to the Essendon supplements scandal of the time, stripped Watson of his medal. Runners-up in 2012, Sam Mitchell and Trent Cotchin, were elevated to joint winners.

Watson and 33 others Essendon players from 2012 were found guilty of using the banned peptide Thymosin beta 4 and suspended for 12 months.

All these years later, the AFL still hasn?t offered any evidence that the Essendon players took performance-enhancing drugs.

It's time to correct a miscarriage of justice, it's time to reinstate Watson as a Brownlow Medallist.

I wasn't aware that it was considered a miscarriage of justice by most people.



Administering mysterious pharmaceuticals en masse to players off site doesn?t sound kosher, but that doesn?t mean it makes them perform beyond their natural capabilities.

Oh ok.



There is a school of thought that something had to be fishy when Watson suddenly went from a hardworking plodder to an elite midfielder. The theory was he must have done something radical to make the transition.

Yet Watson won Essendon's best and fairest award in 2009-10, well before anyone other than Stephen Dank knew anything of AOD 9604 and Thymosin beta 4.

He finished top two in the club best and fairest award five times from 2006-13, winning in three years. He was captain for six years. That's not the cv of a plodder ... or a bloke who would be party to cheating.


They finished bottom 5 in 5 of those seasons, made finals just twice and one of their better finishes (9th) was the drug year so ineligible. One of the years he won it they finished 14th. Sure he wasn't a bad player but B&F finishes in that team is hardly a strong indication of someone building to be the "best player in the league". Also not sure how decent B&F finishes is indicative at all of a propensity to not cheat.




There's an obvious problem, of course, if Watson regains his medal and Brownlow Medal status.

What would it mean for Mitchell and Cotchin, currently listed as Brownlow winners for 2012?

My answer to that is we settle on three winners for that year, with an asterisk explaining why Mitchell and Cotchin tied with a player who scored four more votes.


Genius solution. Very out of the box thinking.




Official publications explain why Corey McKernan (1996) and Chris Grant (1997) didn't win the medal when they topped the Brownlow votes table (McKernan tied). It's because they didn't meet the "fairest" element of the criteria ... with McKernan rubbed out for the innocuous offence of tripping.


Ah yes, we must uphold the "fairest" part of the medal. We can't just be handing out Brownlows to those that weren't deemed fairest at the time.




One other thing. If Watson - and his long-time teammate Dustin Fletcher, who was at Essendon in 2012 - remain tainted by the supplements saga, surely that would jeopardise their claims for a place in the AFL Hall of Fame, as their playing records justify.

That would be a travesty for both players, Essendon champions and greats of the game.


Would Jobe be even in the mix? Captain at a non competitive side, a handful of B&F finishes at said side, no finals wins certainly, no involvement in football aside from as the thickest special comments person there has ever been, and convicted drug cheat.

As an alternative Matthew Boyd has a much better CV but I doubt is even in consideration.



Come on, Dills, extend the olive branch to Jobe; football fans will love you.

Football fans? Lol.

[jeemak]

Good grief that's a lot of tripe and a weird thing to bring up now.

[Mofra]

I hate Essendon as much as anyone, but Jobe is actually one of the good guys of football

[macca]

Can they give Chris grant a brownlow in retropsect first? It was an accidental trip , terrible call by the umpire. Mike Sheehan write about that first not how hard done by Jobe was. How much did he really know what was going on ?
Zhakarakis was switched on and refused injections
Players walked out: Orazasio, Houli, Melksham, Ryder...
The essendon program ruined a number of players careers including Crameri

Watson was NOT the fairest player that season.
I have lost a lot of respect for Sheehan in this articlr to point wont even bother reading his articles anymore . Anothrr Essendo culture sympathiser

[macca]

Great post soupman, i would put Vandenburg as a better captain tha Jobe. Vandenburg was a plodder but he had non negotiables for team standards. He stuck with Hawthorn in the early 2000s when they were rebuilding.

[ledge]

If Grant can’t get his Brownlow why should Jobe ? Grant wasn’t even cited and cleared until someone who had no idea got involved.
Jobe was found guilty and nothing has happened to change that.

[Grantysghost]

I hate Essendon as much as anyone, but Jobe is actually one of the good guys of football

I don't think that's in question. He seems like a good guy, however also a drug cheat.

[Uninformed]

Simply because Watson actually won the Brownlow, it should never have been taken off him.

So of course it should be given back and Cotchin and Mitchell made what they were - equal second.

Particularly it should not have been taken off him for what, at best, was an unrelated thing.

But it still boils my blood what was done to Essendon and Hird. It was absolutely criminal by the media, the AFL and various bureaucrats here and overseas.

The way they were injecting supplements was radical and could easily have been stopped by a memo from the AFL.

But there was never a deliberate program of using performance enhancing drugs of any kind. Hird would never allow that and nor would the players.

What was done to those good people in the name of posturing over how clean the game is by the media and both AFL and outside bureaucrats was an absolute disgrace.

Who would you believe more, the corrupt media or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, a corrupt government official or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, AFL house or Hird and the players?

I am no Essendon supporter, but that whole thing should never have happened.

[Grantysghost]

How is it the AFLs responsibility to monitor their drug cheating Uninformed?

[jazzadogs]

Get f***ed Mike.

[jazzadogs]

Simply because Watson actually won the Brownlow, it should never have been taken off him.

So of course it should be given back and Cotchin and Mitchell made what they were - equal second.

Particularly it should not have been taken off him for what, at best, was an unrelated thing.

But it still boils my blood what was done to Essendon and Hird. It was absolutely criminal by the media, the AFL and various bureaucrats here and overseas.

The way they were injecting supplements was radical and could easily have been stopped by a memo from the AFL.

But there was never a deliberate program of using performance enhancing drugs of any kind. Hird would never allow that and nor would the players.

What was done to those good people in the name of posturing over how clean the game is by the media and both AFL and outside bureaucrats was an absolute disgrace.

Who would you believe more, the corrupt media or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, a corrupt government official or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, AFL house or Hird and the players?

I am no Essendon supporter, but that whole thing should never have happened.

There are parts of this that I agree with - there was definitely an 'Essendon scapegoat' angle. But also, they had an offsite injection program which was against league/ASADA/WADA rules.

I don't think the argument is that Essendon did nothing wrong. The argument is that they weren't the only club to be doing something wrong.

Jobe should not be awarded the 2012 Brownlow. He was not the fairest player that year.

[Grantysghost]

Thing that gets me, amongst the revisionism, is that the players still have no idea what they were actually injected with.
Who knows the long term effects.

If anything I lean towards they got off lightly.

I absolutely feel for the players however, the leaders not so much. Including Jobe.

[jeemak]

Thing that gets me, amongst the revisionism, is that the players still have no idea what they were actually injected with.
Who knows the long term effects.

If anything I lean towards they got off lightly.

I absolutely feel for the players however, the leaders not so much. Including Jobe.

They can't tell anyone what they were injected with but they can sure has hell tell everyone that they didn't inject anything that contravened doping laws!

[Uninformed]

How is it the AFLs responsibility to monitor their drug cheating Uninformed?

Surely the clubs can be responsible for their players, collect samples and have testing done, observe them for anomalies. Not that hard. AFL can ensure clubs keep standards. Serious penalties for players that cheat. No need for the external w**kers.

[Uninformed]

There are parts of this that I agree with - there was definitely an 'Essendon scapegoat' angle. But also, they had an offsite injection program which was against league/ASADA/WADA rules.

I don't think the argument is that Essendon did nothing wrong. The argument is that they weren't the only club to be doing something wrong.

Jobe should not be awarded the 2012 Brownlow. He was not the fairest player that year.

At the time there was no rule against offsite injection programs. The rule was introduced subsequently. A sound decision but one that could easily have been done without the alphabet people. It could have been treated like Mathews' Brisbane team's fluid injections on the plane down. Stopped without a fuss.

Essendon did nothing wrong. They were not using performance enhancing substances.

Jobe was a tremendously fair player. Always has been and was a deserving winner. He, like Hird, would never cheat. He did nothing wrong or unfair.

On the basis of character, labelling Hird and Watson cheats is as untrue as applying that label to people the character of Bevo and Bont.

[hujsh]

Who would you believe more, the corrupt media or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, a corrupt government official or Hird and the players?

Who would you believe more, AFL house or Hird and the players?


I would not trust Hird as far as I can throw him and the players either don't know or won't reveal what they were injected with so what they say doesn't particularly matter either.

With the possible exception of AFL house I'd go the former each time

[Uninformed]

Thing that gets me, amongst the revisionism, is that the players still have no idea what they were actually injected with.
Who knows the long term effects.

If anything I lean towards they got off lightly.

I absolutely feel for the players however, the leaders not so much. Including Jobe.

Thank goodness we made sure we were so clear on that when we got our COVID shots!

[Grantysghost]

Thank goodness we made sure we were so clear on that when we got our COVID shots!

Hey hey my 5g reception is next level now.

[MrMahatma]

Reckon Mike’s on the peptides. How you could think a guy rubbed out for drug use could be given the best and fairest is nuts.

If he’s guilty, that’s it.

He was found guilty. They all were.

I also love that the Bombers being drug cheats is back in the press!

[jazzadogs]

Thank goodness we made sure we were so clear on that when we got our COVID shots!

"Hey doc, what's in this needle?"
"That's your scientifically produced evidence backed covid shot"

Is a lot different to

"Hey Jobe what were you injected with?"
"No idea but it was definitely legal!!"

[EasternWest]

You guys are mad and I bow down to Mike Sheahan, absolute god tier shitposter.

[FrediKanoute]

No. To say he bore the brunt of poor of field decisions is a farce. 3 members of a 100m relay team being denied a medal because 1 cheats is a tragedy, what the Bombers did was deliberate and wrong and Jobe was part of that. The passage of time doesn't make it less so. Shame on Sheehan for suggesting otherwise.

[Happy Days]

I also wanna kiss Jobe Watson on the mouth! What’s a Brownlow?

[FrediKanoute]

At the time there was no rule against offsite injection programs. The rule was introduced subsequently. A sound decision but one that could easily have been done without the alphabet people. It could have been treated like Mathews' Brisbane team's fluid injections on the plane down. Stopped without a fuss.

Essendon did nothing wrong. They were not using performance enhancing substances.

Jobe was a tremendously fair player. Always has been and was a deserving winner. He, like Hird, would never cheat. He did nothing wrong or unfair.

On the basis of character, labelling Hird and Watson cheats is as untrue as applying that label to people the character of Bevo and Bont.

The topic has been done to death which is what makes Sheehan's article so appalling.

If you know that something is going on but say nothing you are as guilty of a crime as if you did the crime.

The substances injected were regarded as banned substances by WADA and Australia's equivalent ASADA. Performance enhancing has nothing to do with it. They were banned because they had the effect of masking performance enhancing substances. If they weren't taking performance enhancing drugs, why take masking agents? Its ironic that one of the central defences is that the substance they took was not performance enhancing.

Lt it rest and lets avoid revisiting a very dark chapter in AFL history.

[FrediKanoute]

Thank goodness we made sure we were so clear on that when we got our COVID shots!

Very, very,very big difference. I shouldn't have t point it out, but C-19 killed thousands of people. The vaccine was aimed at protecting the wider population rather than trying to get an advantage over the next bloke.

The analogy your draw is flawed .

[bulldogtragic]

I have nothing to say.

[Grantysghost]

You guys are mad and I bow down to Mike Sheahan, absolute god tier shitposter.

It's next level trolling.

[Grantysghost]

Very, very,very big difference. I shouldn't have t point it out, but C-19 killed thousands of people. The vaccine was aimed at protecting the wider population rather than trying to get an advantage over the next bloke.

The analogy your draw is flawed .

7 million at least and counting. Without a vaccine, hard to imagine what it might be.

[angelopetraglia]

The real question for me. Is that Mike or Robbo? Robbo writing as Mike's ghost writer to push his agenda. When was the last time Mike wrote an article. Mike is like Bernie, at Weekends at Bernies in context to this.

[Hotdog60]

This has all been done before and just on Hird as head coach he has the welfare and guidance of the charges under him he could have and should have know all the ins and outs of what they were planning on doing with the players.
So he either went along with it or he didn't have the guts to stand up against it.

[Bulldog Joe]

"Hey doc, what's in this needle?"
"That's your scientifically produced evidence backed covid shot"

Is a lot different to

"Hey Jobe what were you injected with?"
"No idea but it was definitely legal!!"


This has all been done before and just on Hird as head coach he has the welfare and guidance of the charges under him he could have and should have know all the ins and outs of what they were planning on doing with the players.
So he either went along with it or he didn't have the guts to stand up against it.

As head coach he was responsible for the football program.

Hard to see how the entire saga doesn't fall back on Hird.

At the time he repeatedly said something along the lines of "when the truth comes out" but always refused to provide any of that truth.

There can be no exoneration of any in the Essendon saga.

[Grantysghost]

It's next level trolling.

In fact, I have just obtained exclusive footage purporting to show the publishing of said article :

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExa25pYXo0bHk5ODIwdGJzeDNkM2F2Mzd3azQ1ZDM3c jZmNWMyZ2o3eCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/nMLHJmzsJlS3SGPCVx/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[Dog]

No reprieve for Jab Watson. Disgraceful actions are punished to form future precedent.

The fact that's he's allowed to exist freely in the media is dubious enough.

[Bulldog4life]

The topic has been done to death which is what makes Sheehan's article so appalling.

If you know that something is going on but say nothing you are as guilty of a crime as if you did the crime.

The substances injected were regarded as banned substances by WADA and Australia's equivalent ASADA. Performance enhancing has nothing to do with it. They were banned because they had the effect of masking performance enhancing substances. If they weren't taking performance enhancing drugs, why take masking agents? Its ironic that one of the central defences is that the substance they took was not performance enhancing.

Lt it rest and lets avoid revisiting a very dark chapter in AFL history.

He wrote it for his good buddies Timmy & Robbo.

[jeemak]

As head coach he was responsible for the football program.

Hard to see how the entire saga doesn't fall back on Hird.

At the time he repeatedly said something along the lines of "when the truth comes out" but always refused to provide any of that truth.

There can be no exoneration of any in the Essendon saga.

He's just waiting for the right moment. Any day now.........and counting.

The club doctor protested and got pushed to the outer edge of the football program. If that doesn't tell you how what was happening was dubious at best, beyond negligent and cheating at worst then nothing would.

[Before I Die]

Thoughts?

Reading that made me want to throw up.

[EasternWest]

Reading that made me want to throw up.

Nailed it, except on this forum the correct terminology is "Spew up".

C'mon BID you've been around long enough to know this :).

[SonofScray]

No.

That's all the question deserves.

[Jasper]

I read the article and I cant see why it should or needs to be changed. Ive also read a lot of the discussions online.
He had a great year but I think I read that he never scored more than 20 brownlow votes other than that season. That says a bit from my perspective.

[Topdog]

You can just imagine the author sitting there giggling to themselves at this point in the article.




In January 2016, three judges of the Court of Arbitration for Sport, an organisation based in Europe, had determined the 34 Essendon players violated the AFL?s anti-doping policy.

Yet, in March the previous year, the AFL anti-doping Tribunal had handed down a "not guilty" judgment on all the available evidence. The World Anti-Doping Authority appealed the AFL decision to CAS and won.

How, then, did the Court of Arbitration find to the contrary? Who knows, but WADA wanted blood.

Administering mysterious pharmaceuticals en masse to players off site doesn?t sound kosher, but that doesn?t mean it makes them perform beyond their natural capabilities.


Also just for semantics that "not guilty" was based on an incorrect application of the burden of proof which came as no surprise to anyone that has seen how the AFL operate.

[GVGjr]

I think what lets Sheehan's point of view down is that the club and the players were removed from the finals and Watson was just one of thirty-four players suspended as part of supplements saga for using a banned performance-enhancing substance.
Why should he get a special acknowledgement and the others remain with a mark against them?
They all paid a heavy price for the failures of the club to administer a program within the guidelines perhaps the captain paid a slightly heavier one but it shouldn't matter now. The club was very lucky to have not been stood down from the competition.

This should be addressed with the Essendon football club.

[jeemak]

I think what lets Sheehan's point of view down is that the club and the players were removed from the finals and Watson was just one of thirty-four players suspended as part of supplements saga for using a banned performance-enhancing substance.
Why should he get a special acknowledgement and the others remain with a mark against them?
They all paid a heavy price for the failures of the club to administer a program within the guidelines perhaps the captain paid a slightly heavier one but it shouldn't matter now. The club was very lucky to have not been stood down from the competition.

This should be addressed with the Essendon football club.

Essendon aren't about the team, it's about personalities like Timmy, Jimmy, Sheeds and Jobe! And long may that continue, because as long as they keep missing the point they'll keep missing finals.

[Uninformed]

Have to disagree with pretty much all the analysis on this.


The AFL reached a finding of not guilty. That was all that was ever needed. If they’d had the spine to stick with that, none of the disaster that followed would have happened.


It was actually the totally irrelevant European Court of Arbitration in Sport who used the incorrect standard of evidence, or burden of proof. Natural justice requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and no-one produced anything even approaching that standard.


A just verdict had to be not guilty. It is Australian Rules football, not European Rules football. Tell the outsiders go and get. And tell the insane McDevitt and ASADA to go and get too. We do not want a Government with eyes on re-election interfering in our sport! The AFL should be doing the testing themselves.


Every player and coach were denied natural justice. So I agree you cannot just address the injustice to Watson. Hird and every affected player should be properly compensated.


While they are at it, the draft picks and points should be reinstated this year. That would be fair.


Who wants to claim a premiership where one of your competitors has been unjustly beaten into the ground.


Anyway. Doesn’t matter. Everyone has a point of view. Just waiting for someone to produce the hard evidence. Not inference, evidence. Still waiting…

[jeemak]

So you're saying you sign up to WADA's rules and regulations for window dressing/ to look good, but when their process calls you to account you just ignore it?

[EasternWest]

Have to disagree with pretty much all the analysis on this.


The AFL reached a finding of not guilty. That was all that was ever needed. If they’d had the spine to stick with that, none of the disaster that followed would have happened.


It was actually the totally irrelevant European Court of Arbitration in Sport who used the incorrect standard of evidence, or burden of proof. Natural justice requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and no-one produced anything even approaching that standard.


A just verdict had to be not guilty. It is Australian Rules football, not European Rules football. Tell the outsiders go and get. And tell the insane McDevitt and ASADA to go and get too. We do not want a Government with eyes on re-election interfering in our sport! The AFL should be doing the testing themselves.


Every player and coach were denied natural justice. So I agree you cannot just address the injustice to Watson. Hird and every affected player should be properly compensated.


While they are at it, the draft picks and points should be reinstated this year. That would be fair.


Who wants to claim a premiership where one of your competitors has been unjustly beaten into the ground.


Anyway. Doesn’t matter. Everyone has a point of view. Just waiting for someone to produce the hard evidence. Not inference, evidence. Still waiting…

It's Essington. I don't need evidence to fetch my pitchfork.

[hujsh]

Have to disagree with pretty much all the analysis on this.


The AFL reached a finding of not guilty. That was all that was ever needed. If they?d had the spine to stick with that, none of the disaster that followed would have happened.

So many 'corrupt' groups you mentioned before but you don't see a problem with accepting an AFL finding? I guess Talia losing his phone was all good 'nothing to see here' justice as well? Since they're reliable and other organisations/groups are just corrupt


A just verdict had to be not guilty. It is Australian Rules football, not European Rules football. Tell the outsiders go and get.

Just waiting for someone to produce the hard evidence. Not inference, evidence. Still waiting?

They broke the rules the AFL signed up for. If you don't want to abide by the rulings of WADA/ASADA... don't agree to join them. Then your organisation can have their own sham trials to their hearts content. Let the cries of not guilty reign.


"Unfortunately, despite their education, they agreed to be injected with a number of substances they had little knowledge of, made no enquiries about the substance and kept the injections from their team doctor and Asada.?

McDevitt said no Essendon player declared the injections during Asada testing missions to the club, ?despite being asked each time whether they had taken any supplements?.

?At best, the players did not ask the questions, or the people, they should have. At worst, they were complicit in a culture of secrecy and concealment.?


See they weren't injected with anything suspicious. They just had an offsite injection program, cut the doctor out of the process, didn't report it to ASADA, and lost all record of what they were injected with. Totally normal and professional stuff.

[jazzadogs]

Have to disagree with pretty much all the analysis on this.


The AFL reached a finding of not guilty. That was all that was ever needed. If they’d had the spine to stick with that, none of the disaster that followed would have happened.


It was actually the totally irrelevant European Court of Arbitration in Sport who used the incorrect standard of evidence, or burden of proof. Natural justice requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and no-one produced anything even approaching that standard.


A just verdict had to be not guilty. It is Australian Rules football, not European Rules football. Tell the outsiders go and get. And tell the insane McDevitt and ASADA to go and get too. We do not want a Government with eyes on re-election interfering in our sport! The AFL should be doing the testing themselves.


Every player and coach were denied natural justice. So I agree you cannot just address the injustice to Watson. Hird and every affected player should be properly compensated.


While they are at it, the draft picks and points should be reinstated this year. That would be fair.


Who wants to claim a premiership where one of your competitors has been unjustly beaten into the ground.


Anyway. Doesn’t matter. Everyone has a point of view. Just waiting for someone to produce the hard evidence. Not inference, evidence. Still waiting…

Same. I'm still waiting for essendon to produce the evidence of what they injected their players with. One of the spreadsheets they deleted or computers they destroyed might come in handy for that.

They were found to be injecting players offsite, supposedly with no records of what, who or when.

[Grantysghost]

So many 'corrupt' groups you mentioned before but you don't see a problem with accepting an AFL finding? I guess Talia losing his phone was all good 'nothing to see here' justice as well? Since they're reliable and other organisations/groups are just corrupt




They broke the rules the AFL signed up for. If you don't want to abide by the rulings of WADA/ASADA... don't agree to join them. Then your organisation can have their own sham trials to their hearts content. Let the cries of not guilty reign.



See they weren't injected with anything suspicious. They just had an offsite injection program, cut the doctor out of the process, didn't report it to ASADA, and lost all record of what they were injected with. Totally normal and professional stuff.

Nothing suss...!

[Uninformed]

So you're saying you sign up to WADA's rules and regulations for window dressing/ to look good, but when their process calls you to account you just ignore it?

I am saying do not sign up in the first place. It is like a nation giving up it's sovereignty to sign up to some UN wank.

[Grantysghost]

I am saying do not sign up in the first place. It is like a nation giving up it's sovereignty to sign up to some UN wank.

That's a different argument.

Once you have, then you certainly need to comply.

Why do you think it is Essendon haven't been able to prove they did nothing wrong?

[Uninformed]

Nothing suss...!

Still waiting. Evidence not inference.

[Uninformed]

It's Essington. I don't need evidence to fetch my pitchfork.

Now that's an entirely different matter. Fully justified blind bias toward the enemy. Welcome to one of my spare pitchforks if you can't find yours!

[Uninformed]

That's a different argument.

Once you have, then you certainly need to comply.

Why do you think it is Essendon haven't been able to prove they did nothing wrong?

Not their job. Innocent till proven guilty. The 'proven guilty' is the missing bit.

[Sedat]

Thoughts?
It is time to give Ben Johnson the 1988 100m gold medal. Farks sake.

I give Jobe grudging respect for wearing the Canadian Tuxedo in the drug cheat press conference but that's it.

[Grantysghost]

Not their job. Innocent till proven guilty. The 'proven guilty' is the missing bit.

Would you endorse a similar approach to supplements from the Dogs?

Offsite injections of unknown origin (into the Bont et al), Doctors ignored, zero record keeping, coaches injecting supplements and skin tanning agents, and whatever else they were doing.

I'd find it pretty difficult at any time to be ok with my club doing any of that.

You take an interesting position, almost anti authority if I'm reading you correctly. Not sure if suits this particular issue however I'm enjoying the discussion.

I am done with this story though so Mike can jog on.

[Uninformed]

Would you endorse a similar approach to supplements from the Dogs?

Offsite injections of unknown origin (into the Bont et al), Doctors ignored, zero record keeping, coaches injecting supplements and skin tanning agents, and whatever else they were doing.

I'd find it pretty difficult at any time to be ok with my club doing any of that.

You take an interesting position, almost anti authority if I'm reading you correctly. Not sure if suits this particular issue however I'm enjoying the discussion.

I am done with this story though so Mike can jog on.

Good point, and absolutely not. I don't like the approach Essendon took. It was way too extreme an approach to, in their words, 'be at the cutting edge of supplements.' But there was no direct rule against the off-site injections when they did it. There should have been a rule and, to me, all the AFL had to do was send them a memo prohibiting it.

But it was supplements not doping. So there was no need for the public disgrace, the media pile-on, and the ruination of a large number of young men's lives. The effect that had on innocent people was horrific.

Sure they made bad choices in implementing and going along with the program, but everyone makes mistakes. Even the Bont. makes mistakes..(well, probably not..) But most people do anyway.

I am the last person that would recommend medical science as a way to improve. Eat healthy, train hard and practice, practice, practice. Its the Uniformed way: well it is what I preach but very much fail to practice - and you know how much that is worth!

[Topdog]

Anyway. Doesn?t matter. Everyone has a point of view. Just waiting for someone to produce the hard evidence. Not inference, evidence. Still waiting?

So as long as someone is good at hiding something they can do whatever they like? No wonder everything at bomberland suddenly went missing.

Also again to clarify the burden of proof is different for WADA drug cases so the AFL did apply it incorrectly.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2021_wada_code.pdf

Article 3, page 26

[hujsh]

So as long as someone is good at hiding something they can do whatever they like? No wonder everything at bomberland suddenly went missing.

Also again to clarify the burden of proof is different for WADA drug cases so the AFL did apply it incorrectly.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2021_wada_code.pdf

Article 3, page 26

I don't think he cares. If there's no positive test for PEDs then nothing else matters. Give Lance back his his Tour De France wins.

[bornadog]

That article by Sheahan is an absolute joke, how dare he even suggest it and write it.

[ledge]

Not their job. Innocent till proven guilty. The 'proven guilty' is the missing bit.

You are guilty if you do not have records of your injection , time and date .
That is a rule that is clear , otherwise athletes would just not take records.
The players said the club has the records , they didn’t and it’s irrelevant anyway as it clearly states the players must have them.
The club certainly did the players over but In saying that the players did themselves over by not having kept records themselves.
Guilty due to not keeping records whether it was illegal or not .
Essendon fans still don’t understand the fact they didn’t keep records is why they were found guilty not that they were taking illegal injections .
They have still not come out with the records so still guilty .
Watson did the wrong thing that year like all players no matter how many years down the track that year was still wrong.

[Mofra]

At the time there was no rule against offsite injection programs. The rule was introduced subsequently. A sound decision but one that could easily have been done without the alphabet people. It could have been treated like Mathews' Brisbane team's fluid injections on the plane down. Stopped without a fuss.

Essendon did nothing wrong. They were not using performance enhancing substances.

Jobe was a tremendously fair player. Always has been and was a deserving winner. He, like Hird, would never cheat. He did nothing wrong or unfair.

On the basis of character, labelling Hird and Watson cheats is as untrue as applying that label to people the character of Bevo and Bont.
How does anyone know? They 'lost' the spreadsheets, went behind their club doctor's back, and the players still aren't sure what was actually taken (TB4 as a best guess was part of the mix).

[Mofra]

Not their job. Innocent till proven guilty. The 'proven guilty' is the missing bit.
They were investigated and found guilty of incorrectly keeping records.
How can you be found to have breached a code then be found not-guilty?

[Mofra]

As an aside, I did listen to a podcast with Edwin Moses who has dedicated his life to catching drug cheats in sport.
We're very very close to not testing for substances at all and just analyzing blood samples to get a complete profile of an athlete's 'natural' genetic potential which means the smoking gun isn't needed anyway. It's far more complex than I can write here and a fascinating development.

[jeemak]

It wasn't just about not keeping records, it was myriad reasons.

Here's the Wikipedia breakdown, and you can be sure if it wasn't accurate Bombres fans would be all over it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_saga

[hujsh]

It wasn't just about not keeping records, it was myriad reasons.

Here's the Wikipedia breakdown, and you can be sure if it wasn't accurate Bombres fans would be all over it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_saga

Good link. I feel like this section in particular is quite relevant


Vital to the case was determining whether or not the unspecified Thymosin used in the program was the banned Thymosin Beta-4 or a different, legal variety of Thymosin. A paper trail had confirmed that Dank had been dispensed Thymosin Beta-4 by the Como Compounding Pharmacy; however, no direct evidence was found that it was this Thymosin rather than a different legal Thymosin which had been administered to players, and this missing evidence link had been key to the AFL Tribunal's not guilty verdict under the 'links in the chain' method. Part of the WADA submission to the appeal, which the CAS accepted in its verdict, was that Thymosin Beta-4 was the only form of Thymosin which would have had the soft tissue recovery effect that Dank had attributed to it – text messages from Dank had specifically described Thymosin as the cornerstone of the soft tissue recovery program. Two urine samples taken from Essendon players during 2012 were also found to contain elevated Thymosin Beta-4; the levels were not high enough to fail the drug test, but they added to the cable of evidence against the players

[jeemak]

^It was the approach to evidence that ultimately did the Bombres in, so essentially not having documentary evidence of what they were doing saved them at the AFL tribunal, while it didn't cut it with the WADA/ CAS processes.

The dog ate my homework excuse is bush league stuff which is fine if that's how you want to run a competition in a local market. It just doesn't cut it if you want to play in the big leagues from a doping perspective.

[Topdog]

^It was the approach to evidence that ultimately did the Bombres in, so essentially not having documentary evidence of what they were doing saved them at the AFL tribunal, while it didn't cut it with the WADA/ CAS processes.

The dog ate my homework excuse is bush league stuff which is fine if that's how you want to run a competition in a local market. It just doesn't cut it if you want to play in the big leagues from a doping perspective.

To be fair the AFL use much better excuses than that, we lose our phones or accidentally delete files. And if you know anything about life in the 21st century, once something digital is lost, it is absolutely impossible to get back.

[jeemak]

To be fair the AFL use much better excuses than that, we lose our phones or accidentally delete files. And if you know anything about life in the 21st century, once something digital is lost, it is absolutely impossible to get back.

That's the hilarious part. To remove all traces of something takes a lot of effort!

[GVGjr]

That's the hilarious part. To remove all traces of something takes a lot of effort!

I used to love watching the Shield and it's amazing how when the authorities break down the door just how quickly the evidence goes missing.

[Grantysghost]

I used to love watching the Shield and it's amazing how when the authorities break down the door just how quickly the evidence goes missing.

It's so obvious it's laughable.

The truth will come out!

WaitING

[Uninformed]

You are guilty if you do not have records of your injection , time and date .
That is a rule that is clear , otherwise athletes would just not take records.
The players said the club has the records , they didn?t and it?s irrelevant anyway as it clearly states the players must have them.
The club certainly did the players over but In saying that the players did themselves over by not having kept records themselves.
Guilty due to not keeping records whether it was illegal or not .
Essendon fans still don?t understand the fact they didn?t keep records is why they were found guilty not that they were taking illegal injections .
They have still not come out with the records so still guilty .
Watson did the wrong thing that year like all players no matter how many years down the track that year was still wrong.

So Guilty of poor record keeping. Goodness me! No wonder the authorities ruined their lives!

[Uninformed]

How does anyone know? They 'lost' the spreadsheets, went behind their club doctor's back, and the players still aren't sure what was actually taken (TB4 as a best guess was part of the mix).

Because it was never proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Uninformed]

So as long as someone is good at hiding something they can do whatever they like? No wonder everything at bomberland suddenly went missing.

Also again to clarify the burden of proof is different for WADA drug cases so the AFL did apply it incorrectly.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2021_wada_code.pdf

Article 3, page 26


Thanks for the link. That is actually no standard at all. It is so open to corruption that it is unbelievable they can get away with it.

[Uninformed]

As an aside, I did listen to a podcast with Edwin Moses who has dedicated his life to catching drug cheats in sport.
We're very very close to not testing for substances at all and just analyzing blood samples to get a complete profile of an athlete's 'natural' genetic potential which means the smoking gun isn't needed anyway. It's far more complex than I can write here and a fascinating development.


Now that is really promising. It sounds like you may get actual proof rather than endless supposition and parsing.

[Grantysghost]

Because it was never proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Urgh dude - cmon man.

It wasn't a murder trial.

What's reasonable doubt got to do with it?

Probably best to park this at :

1. Uninformed.
2. Rest of the world.

[Uninformed]

It wasn't just about not keeping records, it was myriad reasons.

Here's the Wikipedia breakdown, and you can be sure if it wasn't accurate Bombres fans would be all over it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_saga

Wikipedia? That settles it then!

[Mofra]

Because it was never proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
You watched too many US Cops shows.

If records cannot be produced when asked, that's considered Tier 1 evidence in Australia. Many many Acts place a positive obligation upon a person to keep and maintain records for a specific amount of time. If they cannot be produced, it's considered a breach of that Act (both Federal and State legislation).

[jeemak]

Wikipedia? That settles it then!

It's not 2006 anymore, Wikipedia is openly auditable and you can bet more objectively accurate in this instance than anything you'd get from the Bombres, the AFEL or the Herald Sun.

But feel free to disagree with any of the summarised information sourced from within the link and debate it openly here.

[Uninformed]

You watched too many US Cops shows.

If records cannot be produced when asked, that's considered Tier 1 evidence in Australia. Many many Acts place a positive obligation upon a person to keep and maintain records for a specific amount of time. If they cannot be produced, it's considered a breach of that Act (both Federal and State legislation).

And our legal system is not corrupt. Just ask Cardinal Pell!

[Uninformed]

It's not 2006 anymore, Wikipedia is openly auditable and you can bet more objectively accurate in this instance than anything you'd get from the Bombres, the AFEL or the Herald Sun.

But feel free to disagree with any of the summarised information sourced from within the link and debate it openly here.

Simple. They show no evidence.

[Uninformed]

Urgh dude - cmon man.

It wasn't a murder trial.

What's reasonable doubt got to do with it?

Probably best to park this at :

1. Uninformed.
2. Rest of the world.


He looked around. Saw that he was surrounded. Outnumbered. And with laser sharp arguments they were moving in for the kill.

Plaintively he cried, 'Okay I will park it at that.'

[Topdog]

Thanks for the link. That is actually no standard at all. It is so open to corruption that it is unbelievable they can get away with it.

As opposed to drug masking agents and not having any idea what was injected into your body?

"I dont know what drugs I took BUT I know they weren't performance enhancing!"

[jeemak]

Simple. They show no evidence.

I see you know your judo well.......

[Grantysghost]

I see you know your judo well.......

Get your hand off my penis!

[Grantysghost]

He looked around. Saw that he was surrounded. Outnumbered. And with laser sharp arguments they were moving in for the kill.

Plaintively he cried, 'Okay I will park it at that.'

Haha gold. You've fought the good fight.

One thing we agree on, the media attention was disgusting.

[Bulldog Joe]

Simple. They show no evidence.

The evidence was in the records that Essendon were required to provide.

The fact that they lost/destroyed said records is prima facie evidence of guilt.

I remain very confident that if the records provided any hint of innocence they would have been located.

[Grantysghost]

The evidence was in the records that Essendon were required to provide.

The fact that they lost/destroyed said records is prima facie evidence of guilt.

I remain very confident that if the records provided any hint of innocence they would have been located.

But but....the truth will come out BJ.

[FrediKanoute]

Still waiting. Evidence not inference.

See, the lack of hard evidence is evidence in its own right.

Part of the duty/obligation sporting clubs have is to keep records of what they are doing. So whilst there is no evidence of what was injected, the burden of proof falls on the players/club to prove what they did inject (which there is evidence of) was not performance enhancing or designed to mask a performance enhancing product,

In summary waiting for something that doesn't exist is missing the point, because not having that something is evidence on its own that somehing wrong was done. Essendon tried the dog ate my homework defence not understanding that it wouldn't work!

[soupman]

Part of the duty/obligation sporting clubs have is to keep records of what they are doing. So whilst there is no evidence of what was injected, the burden of proof falls on the players/club to prove what they did inject (which there is evidence of) was not performance enhancing or designed to mask a performance enhancing product,


Especially when it's something as serious and health related as injecting players with substances. Not only is it morally good to have a record of what you have done, but a professional obligation as a "professional" sporting club.

This isn't walking through Coles with something you bought somewhere else but you forgot to grab the receipt for.

[EasternWest]

He looked around. Saw that he was surrounded. Outnumbered. And with laser sharp arguments they were moving in for the kill.

Plaintively he cried, 'Okay I will park it at that.'

https://i.postimg.cc/fLXVmL3q/images-6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have no dog in the fight but I couldn't resist posting this.

[Bulldog4life]

And our legal system is not corrupt. Just ask Cardinal Pell!

You have to be kidding surely. Just leave it at that. That's not what WOOF's about.

[hujsh]

You have to be kidding surely. Just leave it at that. That's not what WOOF's about.

I took it as sarcasm

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I took it as sarcasm

Me too