What Percentage of CBD's should our key mids attend?

[mjp]

There has been a bit of talk about more 'balanced' midfield time in 2024.

Whilst CBD's are not a 100% guaranteed answer for the "Who is playing inside mid", it isn't bad...in 2023 it looked like this:

Tim - 84%
Bont - 81%
Liber - 78%
Adam - 78%
Jacko - 36%
Bazz - 30%
Caleb - 19%
Rory - 16%
Buku - 13%
Sam - 9%
Macca - 6%
Rhylee - 3%
Cody and JUH - 1 attendance each.

Those percentages are based on percentage attendance in GAMES THEY PLAYED.

In 2022, we had only Tim above 70%. In 2021, Sweet, Jack and Bont were all 70% plus with Martin actually having a higher CBD attendance % than English and Treloar and Dunks both down under 40% (well, Dunks was 41%).

[Virgin-Dog]

There has been a bit of talk about more 'balanced' midfield time in 2024.

Whilst CBD's are not a 100% guaranteed answer for the "Who is playing inside mid", it isn't bad...in 2023 it looked like this:

Tim - 84%
Bont - 81%
Liber - 78%
Adam - 78%
Jacko - 36%
Bazz - 30%
Caleb - 19%
Rory - 16%
Buku - 13%
Sam - 9%
Macca - 6%
Rhylee - 3%
Cody and JUH - 1 attendance each.

Those percentages are based on percentage attendance in GAMES THEY PLAYED.

In 2022, we had only Tim above 70%. In 2021, Sweet, Jack and Bont were all 70% plus with Martin actually having a higher CBD attendance % than English and Treloar and Dunks both down under 40% (well, Dunks was 41%).
Tim - less. I?d like to see Tim carrying less of the CBA burden, keeping fresher legs to cover more ground late in the game. Lobb was able to have a major impact in the ruck in various games this year (was huge against Geelong), and I?d like to see us explore a mix that is closer to 60%.
By that logic, Lobb at 40%. None for Darcy yet, I don?t trust that his body will handle centre bounces reliably.

Bont - less. I?m concerned about the impact on his body. Rather see him play forward more and run through the middle a handful of times a quarter when needed. Again, closer to 60%

Libba & Adz - same amount as last year.

I want less of Daniel and Macrae (unless his form turns around), and more of West / Garcia / Harmes / Sanders. Could see any of these guys stepping into a role that makes up for the reduction in Bont?s attendances and covers Daniel/Macrae/Baz roles from last year.

Rough numbers without putting much thought into whether this actually adds up:

Libba - 80%
Adz - 80%
Tim - 60%
Bont - 60%
Lobb - 40%
Sanders - 30%
West - 30%
Harmes - 20%

[Sedat]

If Macrae doesn't play decent minutes in midfield, where does he play? He should be in there more than 60% of the time IMO, and needs to work on elevating his (already pretty elite) clearance game to Bont levels. Bont freshened up with chunks forward will cause utter carnage for the oppo D50, but it needs Macrae (and to a lesser extent Adz) to raise their games in the middle (Libba is already elite).

Macrae at 36% in 2023 did both him and the team no favours at all - we missed finals, which is all that is needed to prove that our set-up/tactics failed last year. That's partly on him to add layers to his game but he also seems to be a touch player who needs continuity in his core role/specific skill set. The layers he really needs to add are in defensive transition and supporting other mids at the defensive side of stoppage. He will still win enough ball because that is what he does, but his ability to read the play (if harnessed with a more accountable mindset) should blunt opposition attacking mids.

[Virgin-Dog]

If Macrae doesn't play decent minutes in midfield, where does he play? He should be in there more than 60% of the time IMO, and needs to work on elevating his (already pretty elite) clearance game to Bont levels. Bont freshened up with chunks forward will cause utter carnage for the oppo D50, but it needs Macrae (and to a lesser extent Adz) to raise their games in the middle (Libba is already elite).

Macrae at 36% in 2023 did both him and the team no favours at all - we missed finals, which is all that is needed to prove that our set-up/tactics failed last year. That's partly on him to add layers to his game but he also seems to be a touch player who needs continuity in his core role/specific skill set. The layers he really needs to add are in defensive transition and supporting other mids at the defensive side of stoppage. He will still win enough ball because that is what he does, but his ability to read the play (if harnessed with a more accountable mindset) should blunt opposition attacking mids.
If we got 2021 Macrae again, then I'd advocate for him having more CBAs than anyone. His output has dropped off enormously for two consecutive seasons. His lack of pace and defensive intent exposes him against the new age of fast, high intensity mids like Serong, Butters, etc.

I'm surprised he didn't thrive when tested on the wing honestly. I know he doesn't have particularly high endurance making it harder to gut run and cover ground, but his vision and field kicking are elite

[bornadog]

If we got 2021 Macrae again, then I'd advocate for him having more CBAs than anyone. His output has dropped off enormously for two consecutive seasons. His lack of pace and defensive intent exposes him against the new age of fast, high intensity mids like Serong, Butters, etc.

I'm surprised he didn't thrive when tested on the wing honestly. I know he doesn't have particularly high endurance making it harder to gut run and cover ground, but his vision and field kicking are elite

I thought he was ok in 2022, averaging 30.6 touches, but this dropped off in 2023 to 25.3, his lowest since his debut year in 2013. This was mainly due to the role he was asked to play.

I still maintain the performance of our midfielders in 2023 season was dramatically effected by the change in assistant coach to Lade

In 2022 we were the number one centre clearance side and we dropped off to 10th in 2023? What changed, Macrae out and new coach. Yes Dunkley left but he wasn't great at CCL - 44 in AFL. Libba (15 in AFL), Bont (19) and Macrae (22) were our best centre clearance players in 2022, in 2023 it was Bont (3rd in AFL) and Libba 9th) then daylight.

This tells us Bont and Libba need help in the middle.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If Macrae doesn't play decent minutes in midfield, where does he play? He should be in there more than 60% of the time IMO, and needs to work on elevating his (already pretty elite) clearance game to Bont levels. Bont freshened up with chunks forward will cause utter carnage for the oppo D50, but it needs Macrae (and to a lesser extent Adz) to raise their games in the middle (Libba is already elite).

Macrae at 36% in 2023 did both him and the team no favours at all - we missed finals, which is all that is needed to prove that our set-up/tactics failed last year. That's partly on him to add layers to his game but he also seems to be a touch player who needs continuity in his core role/specific skill set. The layers he really needs to add are in defensive transition and supporting other mids at the defensive side of stoppage. He will still win enough ball because that is what he does, but his ability to read the play (if harnessed with a more accountable mindset) should blunt opposition attacking mids.

My concern with Macrae is that he is nowhere near 2021 and earlier levels. That's not looking at stats - which might suggest otherwise - but he just hasn't been as effective. He is an important player for 2024 and I agree with you, if it's not as a high-time playing mid, he doesn't play.

I'd also consider where we get the best out of Treloar moving forward. Maybe it's the wing? I know there are concerns he gets drawn to the footy but I thought early in 2021 he held width pretty well. With time and space, his skills were excellent and he covers the ground very well.

As an inside player, his disregard for the defensive side of the game is worrying.

[Sedat]

My concern with Macrae is that he is nowhere near 2021 and earlier levels. That's not looking at stats - which might suggest otherwise - but he just hasn't been as effective. He is an important player for 2024 and I agree with you, if it's not as a high-time playing mid, he doesn't play.

I'd also consider where we get the best out of Treloar moving forward. Maybe it's the wing? I know there are concerns he gets drawn to the footy but I thought early in 2021 he held width pretty well. With time and space, his skills were excellent and he covers the ground very well.

As an inside player, his disregard for the defensive side of the game is worrying.
Yep, agreed on both Macrae and Treloar. The reality is that we could not get any more out of Bont and Libba as clearance mids (not to mention we had an AA ruckman) and it wasn't even enough to make finals let alone contend in 2023. Huge fail and it proves the midfield mix has been all askew for the last couple of seasons.

Macrae and Treloar (who did have an above-average season in 2023 to be fair) are bona fide high quality AFL players and are both still in their prime. They can and should get back to their best, and even add strings to their bow to make them even more rounded players - think Cotchin, M Boyd, Pendlebury, Sidebottom as examples for both to aspire to (diffferent type of player but even Dusty who went from D50/midfield accumulator to unstoppable forward of centre). Pressure for spots from the likes of Harmes, Sanders, West and others should incentivise them to reach greater heights.

Macrae has credits in the bank but they are not infinite. If he can get back to his best and most effective as a ball-winning mid and even add defensive capabilities at stoppage, it gives us precious flexibility to deploy Bont forward of centre where he will cause carnage in the same way that Dusty and Petracca do. What I don't want to see is us trying to retro-fit Macrae (and Treloar to a lesser extent) elsewhere on the ground like we did in 2023 just because he is notionally best 22. I'm confident with a very fresh set of new eyes in the coaching group that these two will especially benefit from the new voices/tactics and be re-energised in 2024.

[azabob]

I seriously feel like Homer here, but what does the D stand for?



https://youtu.be/nX9OnI4yDrw?si=2PaMZNFYOnDcH_UE

[Axe Man]

I seriously feel like Homer here, but what does the D stand for?



https://youtu.be/nX9OnI4yDrw?si=2PaMZNFYOnDcH_UE

Centre Bounce Downs?

I guess if the AFL abolish the bounce it will become CTUs?

Not to be confused with 90s group CDB (Cool Dandenong Boys) ;)

I think officially they are referred to as CBAs (Centre Bounce Attendances).

[D Mitchell]

CBD = that real estate within La Trobe Street, Spring Street, Flinders Street and Spencer Street. None outside of 9 - 5, Mon - Fri, an area and time within which too many of us have spent too much of our lives.

[Uninformed]

I thought he was ok in 2022, averaging 30.6 touches, but this dropped off in 2023 to 25.3, his lowest since his debut year in 2013. This was mainly due to the role he was asked to play.

I still maintain the performance of our midfielders in 2023 season was dramatically effected by the change in assistant coach to Lade

In 2022 we were the number one centre clearance side and we dropped off to 10th in 2023? What changed, Macrae out and new coach. Yes Dunkley left but he wasn't great at CCL - 44 in AFL. Libba (15 in AFL), Bont (19) and Macrae (22) were our best centre clearance players in 2022, in 2023 it was Bont (3rd in AFL) and Libba 9th) then daylight.

This tells us Bont and Libba need help in the middle.

Interesting observation on Lade.

What would be the disadvantages of keeping our four best mids in most of the time. So pump Macrae up to 80% with Treloar, Libba and Bont on 80%

The impact Bont and Libba have in the middle is unparalleled. Can we afford to lose some of that by playing Bont. more forward? Prefer not. I thought Treloar's impact was good last year and vintage Macrae is just short of Bont and Libba. Tim and Lobb could be a more even split with Tim having more time forward, but adjusting it through the season as we see how it works.

Really interested in what you would see as the weaknesses of an 80% Bont Libba Adz and Jack midfield?

[bornadog]

Interesting observation on Lade.

What would be the disadvantages of keeping our four best mids in most of the time. So pump Macrae up to 80% with Treloar, Libba and Bont on 80%

The impact Bont and Libba have in the middle is unparalleled. Can we afford to lose some of that by playing Bont. more forward? Prefer not. I thought Treloar's impact was good last year and vintage Macrae is just short of Bont and Libba. Tim and Lobb could be a more even split with Tim having more time forward, but adjusting it through the season as we see how it works.

Really interested in what you would see as the weaknesses of an 80% Bont Libba Adz and Jack midfield?

I would not be moving Bont forward, he is the best midfielder in the AFL - not ready to be tinkered with. I agree, Bont, Libba, Adz and Macrae with Sanders getting a go and being eased into the role.

[mjp]

Really interested in what you would see as the weaknesses of an 80% Bont Libba Adz and Jack midfield?

I'm not BAD but I have thoughts.

It is SUPER predictable.

YES - having your good players in there is generally a good thing...but it is also something the oppo can actually prepare for. It is hard for them to prepare for a wide variety of combinations and playing styles - it is easy to prepare vs a known quantity.

I guess the counter to that is that in sports the team with the best 'habits' usually wins...so having 4x players in there who are committed to team success AND one another should be a good thing. But when the oppo mids don't have to worry about looking at personnel groupings, the way different players setup and spread, well, when the crunch comes that is a benefit to the oppo.

PLUS - if Macrae, Treloar, Liber and Bont share the load, well - they can only be at 75%...cos there are 3x spots shared by 4x players.

I think ideally we would have Macrae and Liber in the mid-high 60%'s with Bont and Treloar around 50%. From there you would think that Sanders, Daniel, Williams, Bailey Dale, Weightman, West, Richards, Garcia and probably 3-4 others I have forgotten would do between 10-30%...but most weeks would do 'a bit' and as fans we should be 'comfortable' seeing them in there.

I'm 100% on Daniel and Weightman in particular being in the centre square more in 2024. They are DIFFERENT. I also think Richards is different as he will run and 'step' at the game whereas Liber and Macrae are both lateral movers who tend to kick high and around corners when exiting stoppage. Even Bont does his share of this. I think Daniel could be a genuine hands-before-feet type user who releases a runner in the way Liber does at his best...but Liber gets sat on so much that he ends up in 'through hands' contested situations and needs to kick to exit.

Anyways...lots of thoughts!

[Uninformed]

I would not be moving Bont forward, he is the best midfielder in the AFL - not ready to be tinkered with. I agree, Bont, Libba, Adz and Macrae with Sanders getting a go and being eased into the role.

Hard to see a weakness with that.

[Uninformed]

I'm not BAD but I have thoughts.

It is SUPER predictable.

YES - having your good players in there is generally a good thing...but it is also something the oppo can actually prepare for. It is hard for them to prepare for a wide variety of combinations and playing styles - it is easy to prepare vs a known quantity.

I guess the counter to that is that in sports the team with the best 'habits' usually wins...so having 4x players in there who are committed to team success AND one another should be a good thing. But when the oppo mids don't have to worry about looking at personnel groupings, the way different players setup and spread, well, when the crunch comes that is a benefit to the oppo.

PLUS - if Macrae, Treloar, Liber and Bont share the load, well - they can only be at 75%...cos there are 3x spots shared by 4x players.

I think ideally we would have Macrae and Liber in the mid-high 60%'s with Bont and Treloar around 50%. From there you would think that Sanders, Daniel, Williams, Bailey Dale, Weightman, West, Richards, Garcia and probably 3-4 others I have forgotten would do between 10-30%...but most weeks would do 'a bit' and as fans we should be 'comfortable' seeing them in there.

I'm 100% on Daniel and Weightman in particular being in the centre square more in 2024. They are DIFFERENT. I also think Richards is different as he will run and 'step' at the game whereas Liber and Macrae are both lateral movers who tend to kick high and around corners when exiting stoppage. Even Bont does his share of this. I think Daniel could be a genuine hands-before-feet type user who releases a runner in the way Liber does at his best...but Liber gets sat on so much that he ends up in 'through hands' contested situations and needs to kick to exit.

Anyways...lots of thoughts!

Yeah, its the other side of the coin. I remember when we were being praised for having so many rotating through the midfield so everyone stayed fresh and we mixed it up for the opposition to counter. Then the narrative changed to say we were running too many through there and not keeping our best players there for most of the game.

Then, as you say, having the best in there all the time makes us predictable. But even if predictable opposition don't seem to be able to stop Bont and Libba. Bonts's ability to stay over the ball and eventually trap it and push clear, despite multiple opposition players simultaneously trying to beat him, is unique to him in the whole comp. I think. Libba's ability to get hands on the pill and never let go until he finds away to get it to our advantage by hand or foot is extraordinary. So, yeah, have them there the most time of all.

Of the potential rotations, I have been impressed by Caleb. His ball handling is a weapon. He seems to have Spiderman-like sticky fingers and pulls the ball in from anywhere and then he is very elusive and hard to tackle. And he is creative with delivery. As you say, he is a very different chess piece in there. I have heard criticism of his defensive abilities but I haven't noticed it myself (although I am not particularly attuned to noticing that generally.)

Haven't seen enough of Weightman to guess, but you would like to try him at least. All the others you mentioned, plus West I would love to see do some damage in the midfield. Not sure how well he would transition, but Richards would be a great weapon through there.

Long rambling post, but where would you put your money? On the fab. four at 75% or mixing it up. Which do you think would win you more games?

[jeemak]

Centre Bounce Downs?

I guess if the AFL abolish the bounce it will become CTUs?

Not to be confused with 90s group CDB (Cool Dandenong Boys) ;)

I think officially they are referred to as CBAs (Centre Bounce Attendances).

Central Dandenong Boys, and don't you forget it.

They were a refreshing change from the threat of 3174 or the Oakleigh Wogs being rumoured to plan on showing up at deb and formal after parties in the area.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Central Dandenong Boys, and don't you forget it.

They were a refreshing change from the threat of 3174 or the Oakleigh Wogs being rumoured to plan on showing up at deb and formal after parties in the area.

Gees these names bring back memories.
I was 6 in 1979 when my folks moved from Maryborough Vic, to lease a milk bar in Noble Park.
We didn't know at the time the milk bar was the home base for the Noble Boys.
My parents learned this on the day we drove up and the old lessor was moving out, being harrased with bats as they drove off by the resident Noble Boys.
What a learning curve that place was for a country lad.

[jeemak]

Gees these names bring back memories.
I was 6 in 1979 when my folks moved from Maryborough Vic, to lease a milk bar in Noble Park.
We didn't know at the time the milk bar was the home base for the Noble Boys.
My parents learned this on the day we drove up and the old lessor was moving out, being harrased with bats as they drove off by the resident Noble Boys.
What a learning curve that place was for a country lad.

I was happily on the north side of North/ Wellington Road, Mulgrave re-zoned as Wheelers Hill (much to the chargrin of those actually up on the hill), but whenever you're within a few KMs a of a suburban caravan park you know you're in for a few adventures even from a very young age.

You must have seen some interesting things growing up in that environment. Mulgrave proper, Noble Park through to Doveton/ North Dandenong was serious business in those days. Crossing North/ Wellington Road for us in the mid to late nineties or going closer to Sandown always bred trepidation among us as late teenagers. We were lucky in a sense that they never built the light rail down the middle of North/ Wellington Road to VFL Park like they were supposed to have, that concentration of public transport would have really tied the 3174 and Oakleigh Wogs together, a bit like The Dude's rug.......


Anyway, back to the thread. I mainly want to see Jacko and Bont in the centre together more and see less of Treloar in there (Libba a mainstay). Mainly because I think Treloar isn't as clever with his hands as others and can also be useful running forward as the man up to the contest and burning people on the way back towards goal. Jacko is good with his hands and can cut the field up from half back by foot using angles, but if he wants to the be main guy he needs to work harder.

Whatever we have however, it can't be homogenous like it was last year. It might only be one game you get burned, maybe two like we did in 2023, but that's enough to keep you out of the eight let alone getting a home final.

[Axe Man]

Central Dandenong Boys, and don't you forget it.

They were a refreshing change from the threat of 3174 or the Oakleigh Wogs being rumoured to plan on showing up at deb and formal after parties in the area.

I always thought it was Cool which sounds ridiculous but better so I'm sticking with it. I actually found some references to Cool online as well so at least I know it wasn't just a figment of my imagination.

[Olddog]

My concern is that Jack Macrae appeared to have lost both his pace and endurance capabilities in 2023. I am hoping that he was carrying some sort of niggle last season that impacted on his capabilities because the Macrae of a few seasons ago is definitely worth 70-80% of his time on the ball. If it turns out that it was a sign of ageing legs starting to catch up with him then we can?t afford to play him anywhere near that much on the ball as pace is a real issue right across our entire midfield group. When it really counted in crunch games last season we were cut up by midfields that were considerably less experienced but had significantly more pace. This is the reason I believe that Harmes was recruited (not lightening quick but sharper than most of our current midfield) and also why Sanders was drafted (I expect to see him in the side in Round 1 and spending considerable time in the midfield as the season progresses)