Tim English - What Price do you pay?

[MrMahatma]

Trade

[Scorlibo]

English's contested work has definitely dropped away from last year, but I really don't understand the angst around his place at the club. He has to be the best performing scapegoat supporters have ever had.

Hypothetically we're going to pay him $1m a year, not hypothetically we are paying Jamarra $1m a year. One is a proven elite performer, the other is rated 32nd out of the 38 key forwards to play 6 or more matches this year.

I get that he's not a loveable bash and crash ruckman, he's not the People's Beard. But he is good, and totally not the problem!

[jeemak]

English's contested work has definitely dropped away from last year, but I really don't understand the angst around his place at the club. He has to be the best performing scapegoat supporters have ever had.

Hypothetically we're going to pay him $1m a year, not hypothetically we are paying Jamarra $1m a year. One is a proven elite performer, the other is rated 32nd out of the 38 key forwards to play 6 or more matches this year.

I get that he's not a loveable bash and crash ruckman, he's not the People's Beard. But he is good, and totally not the problem!

Yeah but you need to understand there's a whole lot of worse players in most comparable facets of the game who we could have to make us better, just so we can save $7,500 to $10,000 a year per listed player in salary cap.

Saving money and getting worse players than the ones we currently have to play for us might just be the way to end this malaise.

[anfo27]

One thing that annoys me is at times Tim will get the ball in space & he can handball it off to a midfielder but he will take it himself. Know your place Tim! Let the bakers bake! yeah you're a good kick for a ruckman but your not a better kick then a midfielder.

[azabob]

English is playing like someone who has a lot on their mind.

Kind of like he has made the decision he is leaving at years end.

His game against Essendon was his worst performance in a number of years and yesterday's first half against the Hawks was bloody close to his effort against the bombers.

I reckon the club might also know this and are fast tracking Sam Darcy by giving him more ruck time during the match - a number of times throughout the season Darcy has taken the ruck contest with English in the vicinity.

[bornadog]

English's contested work has definitely dropped away from last year, but I really don't understand the angst around his place at the club. He has to be the best performing scapegoat supporters have ever had.

Hypothetically we're going to pay him $1m a year, not hypothetically we are paying Jamarra $1m a year. One is a proven elite performer, the other is rated 32nd out of the 38 key forwards to play 6 or more matches this year.

I get that he's not a loveable bash and crash ruckman, he's not the People's Beard. But he is good, and totally not the problem!

I too don't get it either. All the stats show as a ruckman, Tim is in the top 3 or 4 in the AFL, but people prefer to judge him differently.

[chef]

I too don't get it either. All the stats show as a ruckman, Tim is in the top 3 or 4 in the AFL, but people prefer to judge him differently.

I think it shows stats can't always be trusted, your eyes don't lie

[bornadog]

I think it shows stats can't always be trusted, your eyes don't lie

sorry, I don't trust anyones eyes

[ReLoad]

Hes a Fwd Ruck, its as simple as that, hes not a full time middle of the ground ruckman. for the umpteenth time we saw again yesterday he got toweled up in the middle by a worse than average plodder.

However his forward work is fantastic, his running into position and great hands are where his strength lies.

800k PA not a cent more.

[chef]

sorry, I don't trust anyones eyes

TBH that comes across as a bit disrespectful towards this great community of Dogs supporters on here.

What's the point of joining in the discussion then?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

English is playing like someone who has a lot on their mind.

Kind of like he has made the decision he is leaving at years end.

His game against Essendon was his worst performance in a number of years and yesterday's first half against the Hawks was bloody close to his effort against the bombers.

I reckon the club might also know this and are fast tracking Sam Darcy by giving him more ruck time during the match - a number of times throughout the season Darcy has taken the ruck contest with English in the vicinity.

This is what I was concerned about at the end of last season and why I wanted out of contract players signed up earlier in the year.

Multiple uncontracted stars is a huge distraction and you've got to think the players themselves would be affected wondering if everyone is in it together.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Hes a Fwd Ruck, its as simple as that, hes not a full time middle of the ground ruckman. for the umpteenth time we saw again yesterday he got toweled up in the middle by a worse than average plodder.

However his forward work is fantastic, his running into position and great hands are where his strength lies.

800k PA not a cent more.

Exactly this. Not sure why people would be happy getting pushed around at stoppages every bloody week. His timidness in ruck contests absolutely kills us.

I'm happy to keep him, but he would have to be the second ruck option.

[Sedat]

I too don't get it either. All the stats show as a ruckman, Tim is in the top 3 or 4 in the AFL, but people prefer to judge him differently.
Trust your eyes BAD. He is passive and regularly overwhelmed in aerial contests and ruck stoppages (unless he is playing against an absolute clydesdale), and he is incredibly damaging as a link man around the ground when he has time and space.

This is what Tim is. Either we accept it or we don't. If he continues to be out-worked and out-muscled in contested situations as he was last night (and honestly for most of his career), other clubs will not be coming with the golden ticket for him that he might have expected at the end of last season.

We need to deploy him to maximise his great strengths. He is an aerobic beast and we are desperately short for run and carry in the midfield and on the wings, and we are obviously short for aerial assistance down back. He needs to be used as our Blicavs in a variety of roles depending on opposition/match-ups, not just the binary big dog no 1 ruck that he is a) not suited to and b) actually plays to his weaknesses.

[bulldogtragic]

Trust your eyes BAD. He is passive and regularly overwhelmed in aerial contests and ruck stoppages (unless he is playing against an absolute clydesdale), and he is incredibly damaging as a link man around the ground when he has time and space.

This is what Tim is. Either we accept it or we don't. If he continues to be out-worked and out-muscled in contested situations as he was last night (and honestly for most of his career), other clubs will not be coming with the golden ticket for him that he might have expected at the end of last season.

We need to deploy him to maximise his great strengths. He is an aerobic beast and we are desperately short for run and carry in the midfield and on the wings, and we are obviously short for aerial assistance down back. He needs to be used as our Blicavs in a variety of roles depending on opposition/match-ups, not just the binary big dog no 1 ruck that he is a) not suited to and b) actually plays to his weaknesses.

This is what frustrates me about Tim and trying to discuss him. He has a bunch of elite traits, but gun first ruck isn’t one of them. He could be a weapon in multiple ways for us if we wanted. We just won’t play him other than in roles where guys like Meek look like the million dollar men. But we apparently have to ruck him, play Naughton forward, play fringe players, but Richards up the ground, play Khamis who we’ve been grooming as a defender as a forward last year knowing he wouldn’t play, play Lobb on the wing at times last year, play JJ as a poor forward for years, not rotate CBAs, throw Daniel around until he can’t play any role, get fringe blokes like Harmes and not use them as publicly stated, etc. etc.

Hence why maybe a new coach might change some positions up. Tim can play. I want him on a fair price playing in a dangerous role. But if it’s first ruck, then give me Lobb/Darcy, pick 9 and a million bucks.

[bornadog]

Trust your eyes BAD. He is passive and regularly overwhelmed in aerial contests and ruck stoppages (unless he is playing against an absolute clydesdale), and he is incredibly damaging as a link man around the ground when he has time and space.

This is what Tim is. Either we accept it or we don't. If he continues to be out-worked and out-muscled in contested situations as he was last night (and honestly for most of his career), other clubs will not be coming with the golden ticket for him that he might have expected at the end of last season.

We need to deploy him to maximise his great strengths. He is an aerobic beast and we are desperately short for run and carry in the midfield and on the wings, and we are obviously short for aerial assistance down back. He needs to be used as our Blicavs in a variety of roles depending on opposition/match-ups, not just the binary big dog no 1 ruck that he is a) not suited to and b) actually plays to his weaknesses.

We know he is not a contested beast, and I agree with that. But every other trait he is elite. The contested stuff is taken care of by the mids, and I am happy with that. The ball is more on the ground than it is up in the air.

PS: He is 4th in contested marks for all rucks.

[westbulldog]

If he goes to WC they may well play him at CHF and he will be the best in the AFL in that position.

[angelopetraglia]

If he goes to WC they may well play him at CHF and he will be the best in the AFL in that position.

Well if that is there intent, Tim won't be going there on what he has told everyone supposedly. He wants to be a number #1 ruckman. Not a forward. Not a forward/ruckman. A #1 ruckman.

[ReLoad]

Well if that is there intent, Tim won't be going there on what he has told everyone supposedly. He wants to be a number #1 ruckman. Not a forward. Not a forward/ruckman. A #1 ruckman.

And I want to be Chief tasting officer at Cadbury, but if someone pays me a million bucks a year to move boxes at the Cadbury factory instead, ill do it.

[angelopetraglia]

And I want to be Chief tasting officer at Cadbury, but if someone pays me a million bucks a year to move boxes at the Cadbury factory instead, ill do it.

What about if you could get $800K per annum to the be Chief Tasting Officer at Cadbury? Only $100K difference after tax. I don't know. Do you do what you like doing or do you take extra money to take on a role you don't like?

I know which path I would choose.

[EasternWest]

And I want to be Chief tasting officer at Cadbury, but if someone pays me a million bucks a year to move boxes at the Cadbury factory instead, ill do it.

Shut the forum down thanks Gary. This is the single best riposte ever posted on this site. We've peaked. No point continuing.

[GVGjr]

Shut the forum down thanks Gary. This is the single best riposte ever posted on this site. We've peaked. No point continuing.

You've been replaced. All hail the new King.

[bulldogtragic]

So half way through the season and no deal to announce.

If results go as expected this round, Tim’s compo would be Pick 8 and a his wanted large salary spent in other areas on other players.

Might the club be seriously thinking about letting him go? Or at least entertaining it as he’s still restricted.

[azabob]

So half way through the season and no deal to announce.

If results go as expected this round, Tim’s compo would be Pick 8 and a his wanted large salary spent in other areas on other players.

Might the club be seriously thinking about letting him go? Or at least entertaining it as he’s still restricted.

I reckon English has put the brakes on.

Eagles form improving.

Dogs early form not so flash - Beveridge may or may not stay.

[bulldogtragic]

I reckon English has put the brakes on.

Eagles form improving.

Dogs early form not so flash - Beveridge may or may not stay.

If that were the case, would we go harder or let it play out? He’s still restricted and we could push for a trade as well, or take compo.

[azabob]

If that were the case, would we go harder or let it play out? He’s still restricted and we could push for a trade as well, or take compo.

I think we need to let it play out. The key for mine is not to overpay and accept who English is. It has taken me since 2020 until this season to accept who English is.

I do wonder what our longer term plans are for Sam Darcy. That may also play a huge part in it all.

He has that aggressive streak in his game which at his size, mobility and skill level is Max Gawn like.

[Sedat]

Very happy to wait and see how this plays out later in the year. His form is holding up in recent weeks - he was good last night against a top tier AA calibre opponent.

[MrMahatma]

Very happy to wait and see how this plays out later in the year. His form is holding up in recent weeks - he was good last night against a top tier AA calibre opponent.

Grundy couldn't keep up early. Had to get physical. Tim was good.

[Bullies]

Grundy couldn't keep up early. Had to get physical. Tim was good. Credit to Tim as well he didn't go off in the second half.

[bornadog]

Grundy couldn't keep up early. Had to get physical. Tim was good.

Held up well to the physical stuff

Also -Tim had fewer Hitouts but more HTA

[bulldogtragic]

I reckon English has put the brakes on.

Eagles form improving.

Dogs early form not so flash - Beveridge may or may not stay.

Yep. State media:

THE WESTERN Bulldogs are continuing negotiations on a new deal for ruckman Tim English, as the All-Australian takes time on his free agency decision.

As Inside Trading reported in April, the Dogs made a long-term offer to retain English, who has been keen to get through more of the season before locking in his call.

Discussions are continuing, with the Bulldogs having put forward multiple offers and options as part of talks in a sign the 26-year-old is more likely to stay at the kennel.

English is one of eight remaining restricted free agents in the competition, with 108 free agents across the AFL at the midway point of the season.

[azabob]

The more I think on this the more I am changing my mind and wanting English to stay...

The game has moved to a transition game and away from a contested based game.

English biggest asset is his running and ability to lengthen the ground.

I think we need to secure him at around four years at $900K. That would be a having our cake and eating it too.

[bornadog]

The more I think on this the more I am changing my mind and wanting English to stay...

The game has moved to a transition game and away from a contested based game.

English biggest asset is his running and ability to lengthen the ground.

I think we need to secure him at around four years at $900K. That would be a having our cake and eating it too.

Thank you for agreeing with me. :D

English is the modern version of a ruckman. Gone are the days of tap, tap, tap and 5 disposals.

[hujsh]

The more I think on this the more I am changing my mind and wanting English to stay...

The game has moved to a transition game and away from a contested based game.

English biggest asset is his running and ability to lengthen the ground.

I think we need to secure him at around four years at $900K. That would be a having our cake and eating it too.

One frustration I have with this part of his game is, despite having good mobility and disposal for a ruckman, the vast majority of his touches are just so slow. It's mark, look, walk back, look again, wait, look again, and either a 25m chip or a bomb down the line.

Maybe I'm being harsh but I feel like he often stifles the transition rather than contribute to it.

[bulldogtragic]

The more I think on this the more I am changing my mind and wanting English to stay...

The game has moved to a transition game and away from a contested based game.

English biggest asset is his running and ability to lengthen the ground.

I think we need to secure him at around four years at $900K. That would be a having our cake and eating it too.

To me it’s the price needed to keep him and if we desperately need the compo off him.

In a scenario where we don’t need the compo and the salary is not prohibitive to signing up others and sinking too much into a ruckman then I think many would keep him. It’s all about the details for me.

[Grantysghost]

The more I think on this the more I am changing my mind and wanting English to stay...

The game has moved to a transition game and away from a contested based game.

English biggest asset is his running and ability to lengthen the ground.

I think we need to secure him at around four years at $900K. That would be a having our cake and eating it too.
He will get a mill a year, i dont think 900 will get it done.
A mill now isn't a mill before the increase so I'm ok with it.
Problem is we really need to get this done! Lose English and Lobb would be shizen.

[bulldogtragic]

He will get a mill a year, i dont think 900 will get it done.
A mill now isn't a mill before the increase so I'm ok with it.
Problem is we really need to get this done! Lose English and Lobb would be shizen.

If Tim were to leave, why would we trade a contracted Lobb?

[Grantysghost]

If Tim were to leave, why would we trade a contracted Lobb?
We wouldn't, fair point.

[azabob]

One frustration I have with this part of his game is, despite having good mobility and disposal for a ruckman, the vast majority of his touches are just so slow. It's mark, look, walk back, look again, wait, look again, and either a 25m chip or a bomb down the line.

Maybe I'm being harsh but I feel like he often stifles the transition rather than contribute to it.

I'm not saying he is perfect.

I would counter with are not all ruckmans touches too slow outside of maybe Luke Jackson?

[azabob]

He will get a mill a year, i dont think 900 will get it done.
A mill now isn't a mill before the increase so I'm ok with it.
Problem is we really need to get this done! Lose English and Lobb would be shizen.

I heard a talking media head say that once the new collective bargaining agreement comes in there will be at least 60 players on a million dollars a year

[bornadog]

delete

[Grantysghost]

From AFL.com.au
Think thats posted above BAD.

[bornadog]

Think thats posted above BAD.

cheers missed that

[bornadog]

I'm not saying he is perfect.

I would counter with are not all ruckmans touches too slow outside of maybe Luke Jackson?

Luke has been very poor this season as a ruckman

[Happy Days]

I just want the big stupid idiot to re-sign and for me to never, ever find out how much he makes a year, so I can stop flip flopping on it.

[hujsh]

I'm not saying he is perfect.

I would counter with are not all ruckmans touches too slow outside of maybe Luke Jackson?

More a general observation than an issue with what you're saying.

It's probably true of most ruckman I guess I just find it more glaring when it's theoretically a part of English's skillset. It's also an issue outside of ruckmen too to be fair

[Grantysghost]

Luke has been very poor this season as a ruckman

Hmm, not sure BAD hes been very good when Darcy is out.

Game against Saints he was epic.

[bornadog]

Hmm, not sure BAD hes been very good when Darcy is out.

Game against Saints he was epic.

Agree he had a good game against Saints, but I am talking his ruck work which has not been good. When he is in the ruck, his HTA is at 33%.

[chef]

Luke has been very poor this season as a ruckman


He's only been poor when Darcy is back in as 1st ruck. That 2nd ruck/forward role is pretty tough on everyone.

[bornadog]

He's only been poor when Darcy is back in as 1st ruck. That 2nd ruck/forward role is pretty tough on everyone.

Don't agree, both have not had a good season in the ruck. Luke is great around the ground. Anyway, I am going by stats, which I believe, for a ruckman is relevant

[Grantysghost]

Don't agree, both have not had a good season in the ruck. Luke is great around the ground. Anyway, I am going by stats, which I believe, for a ruckman is relevant
25 disposals 39 hit outs v Marshall as one example.

[azabob]

Luke has been very poor this season as a ruckman

Not sure if you are having a go? I never said anything about Jackson ruck form this year.

[Grantysghost]

Agree he had a good game against Saints, but I am talking his ruck work which has not been good. When he is in the ruck, his HTA is at 33%.

Ah ok I see which stat you are referring.

It's not a massive difference to Tim, which BTW I'm not arguing his importance but Jackson's.

https://i.postimg.cc/x8fN6Vyg/jacksonenglishdarcy.png (https://postimg.cc/VrhNNThb)

[bornadog]

Not sure if you are having a go? I never said anything about Jackson ruck form this year.

No not having a go at all. Just commenting on Luke in General, and pointing out his ruck work. Around the ground he has been good.

[Happy Days]

Jackson is fantastic as a first ruck. He’s the best ground ball ruckman since Nicnat and some of his work leaving clearances is a 1:1 copy.

As a forward he has the worst hands above his head this side of Will Minson.

If I was them I would drop Darcy and turn Jackson loose. Seems to be obvious to everyone but the only guy whose opinion matters.

[bornadog]

Ah ok I see which stat you are referring.

It's not a massive difference to Tim, which BTW I'm not arguing his importance but Jackson's.

https://i.postimg.cc/x8fN6Vyg/jacksonenglishdarcy.png (https://postimg.cc/VrhNNThb)

Tim is ranked 3rd for HTA, Luke 15th

[mighty_west]

Jackson is fantastic as a first ruck. He’s the best ground ball ruckman since Nicnat and some of his work leaving clearances is a 1:1 copy.

As a forward he has the worst hands above his head this side of Will Minson.

If I was them I would drop Darcy and turn Jackson loose. Seems to be obvious to everyone but the only guy whose opinion matters.

"IF" i was Freo i would be moving heaven and earth to facilitate a trade to swap Sean Darcy with Tim English, Tim to become a very decent tall forward and give Jackson a chop out as their number 1, and Darcy to become the Dogs number 1, however........

Question is, who says no?

[Happy Days]

"IF" i was Freo i would be moving heaven and earth to facilitate a trade to swap Sean Darcy with Tim English, Tim to become a very decent tall forward and give Jackson a chop out as their number 1, and Darcy to become the Dogs number 1, however........

Question is, who says no?

Us, we say no. Darcy’s body isn’t up to a full season and English is better anyway.

[JanLorMill]

Us, we say no. Darcy’s body isn’t up to a full season and English is better anyway.
Sean Darcy not Sam

[JanLorMill]

"IF" i was Freo i would be moving heaven and earth to facilitate a trade to swap Sean Darcy with Tim English, Tim to become a very decent tall forward and give Jackson a chop out as their number 1, and Darcy to become the Dogs number 1, however........

Question is, who says no?
I like the idea but I wouldn’t pay $1M to any ruck.

[Grantysghost]

Jackson is fantastic as a first ruck. He’s the best ground ball ruckman since Nicnat and some of his work leaving clearances is a 1:1 copy.

As a forward he has the worst hands above his head this side of Will Minson.

If I was them I would drop Darcy and turn Jackson loose. Seems to be obvious to everyone but the only guy whose opinion matters.
Signed Darcy until 2030 so they might have snookered themselves.
I agree with you. Jackson needs to be first ruck.

[mighty_west]

Us, we say no. Darcy’s body isn’t up to a full season and English is better anyway.

That's the issue for me, Darcy has never looked fit enough, in his early days i thought he looked like your average park footballer who would hit the tinnies hard after every game and session, very good ruckman but Tim is a lot more versatile......and fit.

[mighty_west]

I like the idea but I wouldn’t pay $1M to any ruck.

Yep crazy money for a ruckman, The Pies shot themselves big time with their mega deal for Grundy, but then the Dees go and do something as stupid and bring him in when neither he or Gawn are decent enough forwards.

[bornadog]

Yep crazy money for a ruckman, The Pies shot themselves big time with their mega deal for Grundy, but then the Dees go and do something as stupid and bring him in when neither he or Gawn are decent enough forwards.

Why is it crazy money? If the market deems that is what you pay, then you have little choice. Either you pay, or get a crap ordinary ruckman.

[JanLorMill]

Why is it crazy money? If the market deems that is what you pay, then you have little choice. Either you pay, or get a crap ordinary ruckman.
History tells you don’t win premierships with million dollar rucks. They would have to be extra special and English isn’t that. Gawn would be the only one recent and even he was matched by a well past it cheap ruck in Martin on the day. Jackson won it but was not a million day player at the time.

[Glove38]

Been much happier with Tims aggression in the last few weeks. I hope it continues as he becomes a much more valuable player with this in his game.

[bornadog]

History tells you don’t win premierships with million dollar rucks. They would have to be extra special and English isn’t that. Gawn would be the only one recent and even he was matched by a well past it cheap ruck in Martin on the day. Jackson won it but was not a million day player at the time.

My statement stands - you pay peanuts you get monkeys

[JanLorMill]

My statement stands - you pay peanuts you get monkeys
Your definition of a monkey wins premierships then.
Nankervis won 3.

[Before I Die]

History tells you don?t win premierships with million dollar rucks. They would have to be extra special and English isn?t that. Gawn would be the only one recent and even he was matched by a well past it cheap ruck in Martin on the day. Jackson won it but was not a million day player at the time.

Don't know about that. We won it in 2016 because of a million dollar ruck (allowing for salary cap increases) and without a recognised CHF, FF, CHB or FB. Just saying.

[hujsh]

Don't know about that. We won it in 2016 because of a million dollar ruck (allowing for salary cap increases) and without a recognised CHF, FF, CHB or FB. Just saying.

Boyd was a second ruck at best. Roughead was our main ruck and not on a salary like that

[bornadog]

Your definition of a monkey wins premierships then.
Nankervis won 3.

We are going around in circles and we won't change eithers mind.

The fact remains - you want English, you pay market value. If you don't want him, fine. Good luck trying to get another ruck.

As I have said previously, I value English and to have one of the top three rucks at the Dogs, I would do everything to keep him.


Boyd was a second ruck at best. Roughead was our main ruck and not on a salary like that

He was still on a million

[Grantysghost]

We are going around in circles and we won't change eithers mind.

The fact remains - you want English, you pay market value. If you don't want him, fine. Good luck trying to get another ruck.

As I have said previously, I value English and to have one of the top three rucks at the Dogs, I would do everything to keep him.



He was still on a million
Its basic supply and demand.

Not many good rucks, and they are in demand. So price high.

[JanLorMill]

Don't know about that. We won it in 2016 because of a million dollar ruck (allowing for salary cap increases) and without a recognised CHF, FF, CHB or FB. Just saying.
Roughead was first ruck.
Boyd was FF/change ruck Morris FB Roberts or Hamling CHB. No need to over play it

[hujsh]

He was still on a million

And it's still disingenuous to claim we won in 2016 because we went out and recruited a million dollar ruckman and trying to claim it doesn't really make Tim's case look any better IMO. If I was trying to make that point I'd look at how close Collingwood got with Grundy or the role Gawn played in getting Melbourne to the GF (it's not just about GF day you have to get there first). We recruited a forward on potential who played a role in the ruck out of necessity. Pretty different to Tim.

If Tim stays on less than a million, given the salary cap increases, I think we're good. There's hopefully a loyalty discount involved to some extent so as long as it's not a crazy long deal it should be fine/manageable.

[bornadog]

And it's still disingenuous to claim we won in 2016 because we went out and recruited a million dollar ruckman and trying to claim it doesn't really make Tim's case look any better IMO. If I was trying to make that point I'd look at how close Collingwood got with Grundy or the role Gawn played in getting Melbourne to the GF (it's not just about GF day you have to get there first). We recruited a forward on potential who played a role in the ruck out of necessity. Pretty different to Tim.

If Tim stays on less than a million, given the salary cap increases, I think we're good. There's hopefully a loyalty discount involved to some extent so as long as it's not a crazy long deal it should be fine/manageable.

I would argue, Tom was close to winning the Norm Smith - one of the best on the day.

Anyway, I don't care about player salaries. I care about what value they bring to the team. Salary Cap balancing is up to List management.

[hujsh]

I would argue, Tom was close to winning the Norm Smith - one of the best on the day.

Anyway, I don't care about player salaries. I care about what value they bring to the team. Salary Cap balancing is up to List management.

Regardless of how good he was on the day, he was not a primary ruck. It's a great piece of evidence for how valuable Darcy should be though

[Sedat]

Gawn is the best ruckman this century and in the best handful in history. Stef Martin was a 55yo Clydesdale and basically put him to sleep in the 2021 GF for 2.5 qtrs. Gawn actually volunteered to take himself off and get Jackson and his leap into ruck stoppages, and we know how that story ended.

Even the absolute best ruckmen in history don't guarantee a premiership. That's not to say we should let English walk.

[hujsh]

Gawn is the best ruckman this century and in the best handful in history. Stef Martin was a 55yo cludesdale and basically put him to sleep in the 2021 GF for 2.5 qtrs. Gawn actually volunteered to take himself off and get Jackson and his leap into ruck stoppages, and we know how that story ended.

Even the absolute best ruckmen in history don't guarantee a premiership. That's not to say we should let English walk.

We can downplay Gawn's influence because of his performance on the day but what happened the week before? He was huge and who knows if they make it that far without him.

Though I think we're kind of aligned with your last sentence. Don't go crazy but don't insult him.

[Hotdog60]

BIG DOG’S ‘IMPASSE’ ON BIG-MONEY TALKS

Ralph also reported the stall on contract talks between the Western Bulldogs and 2023 All-Australian ruckman Tim English.

“He’s at a contract impasse,” he told Midweek Tackle. “I reckon the Dogs are prepared to get to five years, (but) he wants six or seven years at a million (dollars) plus.

“I don’t think (that will happen), right now. He’s the ninth-ranked ruckman in the AFL.

“It’s time for him to have a massive 10 weeks. You know why Aaron Naughton got a massive deal? Because he got offers of 10 years elsewhere.

“This bloke, if he wants the money, (he’s) got to perform. You’re only as good as your last month, and it’s been poor.”

English, eligible for restricted free agency, has averaged 16.9 disposals, 5.8 marks, 3.6 tackles and 2.5 inside-50s — all of which are down on his All-Australian averages of last season.

LINK (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-whispers-2024-will-phillips-expected-to-leave-north-melbourne-kangaroos-cameron-zurhaar-free-agency-bid-tim-english-western-bulldogs-contract-latest-news/news-story/68b6dad46b002156e76d677461791177)

[bulldogtragic]

Sam Power, tell him he’s dreaming.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting to see how this plays out.

We enjoy handing out inflated contracts so I'm concerned. I'm not sure how we could possibly justify 1m for Tim on any deal, short or long term.

[mighty_west]

BIG DOG’S ‘IMPASSE’ ON BIG-MONEY TALKS

Ralph also reported the stall on contract talks between the Western Bulldogs and 2023 All-Australian ruckman Tim English.

“He’s at a contract impasse,” he told Midweek Tackle. “I reckon the Dogs are prepared to get to five years, (but) he wants six or seven years at a million (dollars) plus.

“I don’t think (that will happen), right now. He’s the ninth-ranked ruckman in the AFL.

“It’s time for him to have a massive 10 weeks. You know why Aaron Naughton got a massive deal? Because he got offers of 10 years elsewhere.

“This bloke, if he wants the money, (he’s) got to perform. You’re only as good as your last month, and it’s been poor.”

English, eligible for restricted free agency, has averaged 16.9 disposals, 5.8 marks, 3.6 tackles and 2.5 inside-50s — all of which are down on his All-Australian averages of last season.

LINK (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-whispers-2024-will-phillips-expected-to-leave-north-melbourne-kangaroos-cameron-zurhaar-free-agency-bid-tim-english-western-bulldogs-contract-latest-news/news-story/68b6dad46b002156e76d677461791177)

Sounds like a bit of guess work, "i reckon" means his opinion and he wants six or seven years, is it six or seven? Anyway, let's say 6 on a Million plus, i mean absolutely want to keep him but, does he influence games enough on a consistent basis to earn that big fat contract? hmmm not so sure, plus the risks with his history of concussions.

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting to see how this plays out.

We enjoy handing out inflated contracts so I'm concerned. I'm not sure how we could possibly justify 1m for Tim on any deal, short or long term.

The highest paid ruckman, for the ninth ranked ruck this year.

Kind of our bag, baby.

[bornadog]

The highest paid ruckman, for the ninth ranked ruck this year.

Kind of our bag, baby.

How is the ranking determined?

He is number two for Hit outs to advantage, 1 ahead of Gawn - hitouts are nothing if you tap it to the opposition.

Number 1 with Gawn for total Marks. Needs to improve on clearances and CP, 5th for total disposals

All compared to other rucks.

[bulldogtragic]

How is the ranking determined?

He is number two for Hit outs to advantage - hitouts are nothing if you tap it to the opposition

Don’t know how Ralphy works it out. But surely it’s more than hit outs to advantage, such as other stats he referenced about Tim’s output going backward from last year.

I’d like to keep him on a fair deal. But 6-7 years on $1M+ an is an insane demand from Tim. If someone else wants to give him that deal then we get good compo of force a trade. That’s almost ambit claim material as far as I’m concerned.

[bornadog]

Don’t know how Ralphy works it out. But surely it’s more than hit outs to advantage, such as other stats he referenced about Tim’s output going backward from last year.

I’d like to keep him on a fair deal. But 6-7 years on $1M+ an is an insane demand from Tim. If someone else wants to give him that deal then we get good compo of force a trade. That’s almost ambit claim material as far as I’m concerned.

Sorry, I added some more stats, you were too quick for me:D

6-7 - yeah, trying it on, part of negotiating. They will come up with a figure that is reasonable and suits both.

[EasternWest]

The highest paid ruckman, for the ninth ranked ruck this year.

Kind of our bag, baby.

Remember when we could have gone after Grundy or Goldstein for next to nothing?

Insert Steve Harvey laughter/realisation meme.

[bulldogtragic]

Sorry, I added some more stats, you were too quick for me:D

6-7 - yeah, trying it on, part of negotiating. They will come up with a figure that is reasonable and suits both.

If he wants to stay and we have a poor finish, he might be going. If we lose tomorrow and Hawks win then the compo tomorrow would be Pick 7. We essentially get the pick given up for Sanders, so it’s English for Sanders effectively (savings a bucket load of cash too). I can live with that if he continues to hold this line. It’s not like he’s doing a Stringer and playing out of his skin in a contract year either. After demanding to stay by only playing first ruck, I actually find the demand a smidge disappointing to be honest. But we will see I guess. But if this isn’t done in the next month or so, I’m calling him gone.

[bulldogtragic]

Remember when we could have gone after Grundy or Goldstein for next to nothing?

Insert Steve Harvey laughter/realisation meme.

I have no mental recall of that. So you must be mistaken.

[hujsh]

How is the ranking determined?

He is number two for Hit outs to advantage, 1 ahead of Gawn - hitouts are nothing if you tap it to the opposition.

Number 1 with Gawn for total Marks. Needs to improve on clearances and CP, 5th for total disposals

All compared to other rucks.

I checked the program to see if there were any graphics showing what ranking was used but nope. No dice

[jeemak]

How is the ranking determined?

He is number two for Hit outs to advantage, 1 ahead of Gawn - hitouts are nothing if you tap it to the opposition.

Number 1 with Gawn for total Marks. Needs to improve on clearances and CP, 5th for total disposals

All compared to other rucks.

Yeah. Ninth mate. Clear as day.


I don't want to be offering Tim more than four to five years. No worries about $1M as that's just permission to play with the salary cap changes. The long term exposure to concussion worries me.

[Bullies]

Yeah. Ninth mate. Clear as day.


I don't want to be offering Tim more than four to five years. No worries about $1M as that's just permission to play with the salary cap changes. The long term exposure to concussion worries me. 5 years max @ $1m per year. What a challenge for him today versus Freo and the big boys. We will see where he is at.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I don't want to be offering Tim more than four to five years. No worries about $1M as that's just permission to play with the salary cap changes. The long term exposure to concussion worries me.

Based on this year he is not a $1m a year guy. I think roll the dice offer around the 800k on as long as he wants. He continues to develop but is not as good as Grundy, Gawn or even Darcy or Nankerus right now.

He got lucky last year with AA selection as Hawn troweled him up against us

[G-Mo77]

We go and pay over $1m per season then shame on us and well done to Tim and his manager. Today just shows we can money ball that position with a heavy hitting type ruckman at 1/4 of the price. Darcy has more hunger and intensity already and we still have Rory Lobb contracted. IMO it's a no brainer, trade him out and cash out.

[bulldogtragic]

We go and pay over $1m per season then shame on us.and well done to Tim and his manager. Today just shows we can money ball that position with a heavy hitting type ruckman at 1/4 of the price. Darcy has more hunger and intensity already and we still have Rory Lobb contracted.IMO it's a no brainer, trade him out and cash out.

If he gets the cash and the years we know his new manager is John Setka…

I’ll take the compo please.��

[jeemak]

Xerri has been in goof form, second highest rated ruck in the game the past few weeks. So English had a task on his hands today.

What disappointed me about Tim today was how he failed to commit to the body early in aerial contests. That's commitment and concentration, and while I can cop him being beaten at times in the ruck, I can't cop a guy wanting seven years at $1M plus a year not being committed or concentrating on his task.

He needs a big game against the league's best and most underutilised ruck next week.

[EasternWest]

If he gets the cash and the years we know his new manager is John Setka…

I’ll take the compo please.��

Did someone say Setka.....

[soupman]

It's been a pretty underwhelming contract year.

Not sure we would be ballsy enough to turn around and reduce our offer, but English is doing his demands no favours. He's been fine but not particularly influential which doesn't really scream "give this concussion prone guy 7 years on 7 figures".

[EasternWest]

It's been a pretty underwhelming contract year.

Not sure we would be ballsy enough to turn around and reduce our offer, but English is doing his demands no favours. He's been fine but not particularly influential which doesn't really scream "give this concussion prone guy 7 years on 7 figures".

Agreed.

Hold firm, give him a fair and reasonable offer and if he takes something elsewhere help pack his bags.

Once him and Bailey Smith are gone we'll actually quickly forget about them because I just don't reckon either of them makes us better.

[azabob]

English v Sweet next week….

[Mantis]

English v Sweet next week….

I can?t wait for the melts if/when Sweet man handles our Tim.

It?s going to be glorious.

[FrediKanoute]

Tasty contest. English hasn't been top draw this year, but he has been important. I think we are a better side with him in it. I am less concerned about the $$$ and more concerned about length of a contract. Should be no more than 4 years.

[bornadog]

Tasty contest. English hasn't been top draw this year, but he has been important. I think we are a better side with him in it. I am less concerned about the $$$ and more concerned about length of a contract. Should be no more than 4 years.

5 at tops

[ledge]

5 at tops

Apparently we offered him 5 and he wants 6 according to midweek tackle, I’m not sure if they mentioned the $$$

[bulldogtragic]

Apparently we offered him 5 and he wants 6 according to midweek tackle, I’m not sure if they mentioned the $$$

The way he’s playing he should take what he’s offered.

[Bullies]

Apparently we offered him 5 and he wants 6 according to midweek tackle, I’m not sure if they mentioned the $$$ Agree. Hopefully the club doesn't blink and stick to 5. If he is travelling well after 3 then maybe a clause to extend by one. Already a big commitment of 5 with his concussion issues.

[G-Mo77]

The way he’s playing he should take what he’s offered.

Agreed. I still think we're going way overs here with 5 and should pull the offer completely.

[bulldogtragic]

Agreed. I still think we're going way overs here with 5 and should pull the offer completely.

I just hope we don’t. Power is smart, that much can’t be argued to me. I’m backing he’s offered a contract that triggers top tier compo if Tim leaves for more. Let’s say it’s 4-5 years on say $900-$1M and not his ambit claim of 7 years at close to $1.5M.

To me it’s win-win. He signs on at a reasonable price or we get a first rounder. I hope it’s the first rounder myself now, but if Power has triggered first round compo if he leaves then we should just hold the line. It’s a nice spot to be in.

[JanLorMill]

I just hope we don’t. Power is smart, that much can’t be argued to me. I’m backing he’s offered a contract that triggers top tier compo if Tim leaves for more. Let’s say it’s 4-5 years on say $900-$1M and not his ambit claim of 7 years at close to $1.5M.

To me it’s win-win. He signs on at a reasonable price or we get a first rounder. I hope it’s the first rounder myself now, but if Power has triggered first round compo if he leaves then we should just hold the line. It’s a nice spot to be in.

$900PA and 5 years is overs.

[bulldogtragic]

$900PA and 5 years is overs.

I wouldn’t go that far. That’s generous but he’s still then behind Bont, Treloar (inc. Woods $300,000), Naughty & Marra and I’m guessing not too much over Macrae. As the cap increases, I’d guess Darcy and perhaps even Richards and other Will over take Tim on salary too. If he’s on fringe or not at all in the top 6 players for wages then I can life with that.

That said, I’d still take the compo. Even more so if we miss finals. I’d take the top 10 pick on a midfielder, put that cash into Barass (with the Smith pick) and ruck Lobb.

[JanLorMill]

I wouldn’t go that far. That’s generous but he’s still then behind Bont, Treloar (inc. Woods $300,000), Naughty & Marra and I’m guessing not too much over Macrae. As the cap increases, I’d guess Darcy and perhaps even Richards and other Will over take Tim on salary too. If he’s on fringe or not at all in the top 6 players for wages then I can life with that.

That said, I’d still take the compo. Even more so if we miss finals. I’d take the top 10 pick on a midfielder, put that cash into Barass (with the Smith pick) and ruck Lobb.
Does anybody want him? I'm not convinced English is the ruckman we need.

[Grantysghost]

Does anybody want him? I'm not convinced English is the ruckman we need.
I do.

[bulldogtragic]

Does anybody want him? I'm not convinced English is the ruckman we need.

Bevo?

I’m sure he could find another club. But the fact the media are reporting he put his number/years out there and no one is calling is pretty telling. I just don’t think he’s a first ruck. He could’ve been a great forward/second ruck but we don’t need that role. Based on his season to date, asking price and potential to deliver us a top 10 compo pick and cash to cover a Barass type, he seems to me to be an obvious candidate to allow him to move.

If he changes his mind we will be stuck with our offer and depending on things it is what it is. But if we budge it will be dumb.

[Grantysghost]

Bevo?

I’m sure he could find another club. But the fact the media are reporting he put his number/years out there and no one is calling is pretty telling. I just don’t think he’s a first ruck. He could’ve been a great forward/second ruck but we don’t need that role. Based on his season to date, asking price and potential to deliver us a top 10 compo pick and cash to cover a Barass type, he seems to me to be an obvious candidate to allow him to move.

If he changes his mind we will be stuck with our offer and depending on things it is what it is. But if we budge it will be dumb.

I think he could be the best r2 forward almost in the game.
He's ability to move around the ground and become an extra defender at times is superb though.

Do we think him not dominating taps really costs us that much?

[bulldogtragic]

I think he could be the best r2 forward almost in the game.
He's ability to move around the ground and become an extra defender at times is superb though.

Do we think him not dominating taps really costs us that much?

It’s not the taps, I don’t really look at those numbers positive or negative. It’s his weak, insipid and uninspiring lack of physical presence. If he was prepared to be the best second ruck/forward he would’ve saved us spending big on Lobb (2 x Pick 30) could’ve got Grundy for peanuts and would be a better TEAM. But he’s demanded a role that he’s being beaten in most weeks. But alas it hasn’t played out like this. So I’d cash out now.

[josie]

Partly agree with bulldogtragic. It’s not only Centre bounces and boundary throw ins, it’s the lack of instigating body contact when a ball approaches a pack he is near or in. Easy for me to say, never played the game not suffered multiple concessions.

Having said that if he agrees to 4 to absolute max 5 years on a reasonable yearly pay of max close to/tad above $1M I wouldn’t be upset either.

[hujsh]

I know we like the idea of English as a 2nd ruck but what about at CamHead/RoughOyd type deal where he eventually does a 50/50 split with young Darcy?

[bulldogtragic]

I know we like the idea of English as a 2nd ruck but what about at CamHead/RoughOyd type deal where he eventually does a 50/50 split with young Darcy?

So no frontline ruckman?

[G-Mo77]

Does anybody want him? I'm not convinced English is the ruckman we need.

The thing is he is OK and you don't pay $1m per year on an OK player.

Darcy already has more hunger and aggression at 20 years of age, we have Lobb contracted for another 2 years and lets not forget about Croft. The money is better spent elsewhere as we already have cattle to hold down the position under contract.

[G-Mo77]

I think he could be the best r2 forward almost in the game.
He's ability to move around the ground and become an extra defender at times is superb though.

Do we think him not dominating taps really costs us that much?

Does him not dominating the taps give advantage to the opposition team?

For me I preferred him as the 2nd ruck. In 2021 we ran old man Martin at #1 and English as backup/Fwd and felt we looked a lot more dangerous in that time.

[D Mitchell]

From an accounting point of view, no. Retire English to a wide tall forward, send Naughton and Jones into the ruck, a bit more handball and the Premiership is ours.

[josie]

The thing is he is OK and you don't pay $1m per year on an OK player.

Darcy already has more hunger and aggression at 20 years of age, we have Lobb contracted for another 2 years and lets not forget about Croft. The money is better spent elsewhere as we already have cattle to hold down the position under contract.

My understanding is with new player payment & related cap increase $1/$1.1M is kinda equivalent to $700/$800K now. Tim is a good player, just not Gawn/Grundy level. Split him with Darcy as latter’s body matures maybe it’s best to keep him. I’m not sure a ready made ruck that is decent mark/decent disposal around ground can be easily found. If we land Barrass then Lobb can share ruck with Darcy, but if we don’t land a decent backman & Lobb blossoms as one I think we’d want to keep English.

[bornadog]

Does anybody want him? I'm not convinced English is the ruckman we need.

What sort of ruckman do you want and how do we get one

[lemmon]

My understanding is with new player payment & related cap increase $1/$1.1M is kinda equivalent to $700/$800K now. Tim is a good player, just not Gawn/Grundy level. Split him with Darcy as latter’s body matures maybe it’s best to keep him. I’m not sure a ready made ruck that is decent mark/decent disposal around ground can be easily found. If we land Barrass then Lobb can share ruck with Darcy, but if we don’t land a decent backman & Lobb blossoms as one I think we’d want to keep English.

Are we talking about Tim this year or Tim at his best? Think we're pretty rough on a guy who was an All-Australian 12 months ago and battled through concussion during an interrupted pre-season.

[jeemak]

Are we talking about Tim this year or Tim at his best? Think we're pretty rough on a guy who was an All-Australian 12 months ago and battled through concussion during an interrupted pre-season.

Ruck influence is a difficult intangible thing to measure, as neither hit outs or hit outs to advantage effectively correlate to overall area effectiveness.

It's the footy equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat. If a cat farts in the woods, does the pope hear it? Very difficult to measure (I think that's the general vibe of the theory, you look it up).

[josie]

Ruck influence is a difficult intangible thing to measure, as neither hit outs or hit outs to advantage effectively correlate to overall area effectiveness.

It's the footy equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat. If a cat farts in the woods, does the pope hear it? Very difficult to measure (I think that's the general vibe of the theory, you look it up).

����Love your analogy. These are meant to be smileys - oh well.
He both hears it and doesn’t hear it simultaneously.

[jazzadogs]

It's interesting after seeing Grundy get shopped around with minimal interest, and now English likely to sign a big contract with minimal external interest.

Clubs are obviously keen on the 'cheap' ruck options, people they can get to fill the role at closer to the average price for a ruck rather than paying a higher price. It would be interesting to know what Darcy Cameron, Rhys Stanley and Toby Nankervis are getting paid (as recent premiership rucks who aren't Max Gawn).

[hujsh]

So no frontline ruckman?

Tim can ruck first if he wants

[Grantysghost]

So are we all saying basically : rucks aren't that important?

[bornadog]

So are we all saying basically : rucks aren't that important?

After 378 posts, is that the conclusion.

[Grantysghost]

After 378 posts, is that the conclusion.
I'm calling it. G close this one off its solved.

[azabob]

����Love your analogy. These are meant to be smileys - oh well.
He both hears it and doesn?t hear it simultaneously.

But, does he smell it?

[azabob]

After 378 posts, is that the conclusion.

If only the English debate had been going for 378 posts.

[JanLorMill]

What sort of ruckman do you want and how do we get one
One with a bit of aggression and who isn?t pushed out of the contest.

[JanLorMill]

Are we talking about Tim this year or Tim at his best? Think we're pretty rough on a guy who was an All-Australian 12 months ago and battled through concussion during an interrupted pre-season.
Or were we soft on a guy that failed us in a number of finals previously?

[bornadog]

One with a bit of aggression and who isn?t pushed out of the contest.

That doesn't explain anything

[lemmon]

It's interesting after seeing Grundy get shopped around with minimal interest, and now English likely to sign a big contract with minimal external interest.

Clubs are obviously keen on the 'cheap' ruck options, people they can get to fill the role at closer to the average price for a ruck rather than paying a higher price. It would be interesting to know what Darcy Cameron, Rhys Stanley and Toby Nankervis are getting paid (as recent premiership rucks who aren't Max Gawn).

How many clubs would be regretting that though with the way Grundy's transformed the Swans' midfield? I'm sure Port would be a far better side if they'd have gone harder at Grundy and not Soldo/Sweet.

[hujsh]

That doesn't explain anything

Look BAD, it's time to face facts. We can just replace Tim with a dude from the bush because it's actually easy to find solid ruckmen and also we can recruit his best mate Nuggety Back Pocket who will hold Charlie Cameron to 1 goal 4 disposals in a final for us. Worst case find someone's 4th ruck and pay him 50k a year and watch him become the next Hudson. These are all strategies likely to succeed. No further elaboration or context is required. (this is partly making fun of my own comments previously since my thoughts weren't too far from this pre-season)

I don't really want to overpay Tim but looking at the market for rucks it's pretty slim pickings. That no one really seems keen to meet his terms should also tell him something so you'd think some common ground is found eventually. Given the rules around concussion and cap relief, decent money on 3 years with easy triggers for 2 more might be right.

[bornadog]

Look BAD, it's time to face facts. We can just replace Tim with a dude from the bush because it's actually easy to find solid ruckmen and also we can recruit his best mate Nuggety Back Pocket who will hold Charlie Cameron to 1 goal 4 disposals in a final for us. Worst case find someone's 4th ruck and pay him 50k a year and watch him become the next Hudson. These are all strategies likely to succeed. No further elaboration or context is required.

This is what people seem to want from a ruckman.

I just want to know what are they looking for in a ruck player.

50 Hitouts with 10 HTA and 2 marks around the ground - yeah perfect:D

[JanLorMill]

That doesn't explain anything
2 things there that English is poor at. Explains at lot.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

My priorities for re-signings were always:
1 Naughton
2 Marra
3 English
4 Smith

So whilst Tim frustrates me to no end, I still see him as an important player. He's vital around the ground. His lack of mongrel is what drives me nuts and can lead to other teams getting on top of us. Even just a 5-10% increase of mongrel would go a long way for us. I'm hoping a middle ground is reached and we don't overpay.

[Sedat]

This is what people seem to want from a ruckman.

I just want to know what are they looking for in a ruck player.

50 Hitouts with 10 HTA and 2 marks around the ground - yeah perfect:D
What I want to see from our 1st ruck is to consistently compete strongly at every stoppage and marking contest. I want an over-ager drafted 8 years ago to be uncompromising in their attitude and to welcome body contact from their opponent, because space is in short supply in finals - I actually want our 1st ruck to ragdoll and monster the players that ragdolled him when he was younger. I certainly don't want to see us concede multiple critical stoppage goals in finals ever again, like has happened in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF and 2022 EF (all against younger ruck opponents).

I had serious reservations about English's competitive hunger in the contest (ruck and aerial) as early as 2019, and 5 years later he hasn't yet consistently delivered in this area (especially not in finals or against top 4 opposition). He has amazing weapons for someone so tall, which IMO far better suit him as an elite forward/2nd ruck. It's no longer an age thing (I would argue it never was). Look at someone a few years younger like TDK - he is a similarly athletic beast but he loves the body contact and relishes the stoppage/aerial battles, which for mine is an absolute non-negotiable for your 1st ruck.

Can English step up and consistently give us what we desperately need? Does he really have it in him to be that 1st ruck beast at stoppage/marking contests without compromising his elite athletic traits? It's solely up to him. Do we reimagine his role in the future if we re-sign him? After 8 years, there are still so many unanswered questions.

[hujsh]

What I want to see from our 1st ruck is to consistently compete strongly at every stoppage and marking contest. I want an over-ager drafted 8 years ago to be uncompromising in their attitude and to welcome body contact from their opponent, because space is in short supply in finals - I actually want our 1st ruck to ragdoll and monster the players that ragdolled him when he was younger. I certainly don't want to see us concede multiple critical stoppage goals in finals ever again, like has happened in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF and 2022 EF (all against younger ruck opponents).

I had serious reservations about English's competitive hunger in the contest (ruck and aerial) as early as 2019, and 5 years later he hasn't yet consistently delivered in this area (especially not in finals or against top 4 opposition). He has amazing weapons for someone so tall, which IMO far better suit him as an elite forward/2nd ruck. It's no longer an age thing (I would argue it never was). Look at someone a few years younger like TDK - he is a similarly athletic beast but he loves the body contact and relishes the stoppage/aerial battles, which for mine is an absolute non-negotiable for your 1st ruck.

Can English step up and give us what we desperately need? Does he really have it in him to be that 1st ruck beast at stoppage/marking contest without compromising his elite athletic traits? It's solely up to him. Do we reimagine his role in the future if we re-sign him? After 8 years, there are still so many unanswered questions.

Do you see it in Darcy?

[Sedat]

Do you see it in Darcy?
Hell yes. He's built like a twig but he has that uncompromising hunger and desire to compete - IMO either you have that innate hunger or you don't. Body strength certainly helps but that only assists an existing mindset, it doesn't replace the mindset.

The difference between the two is stark in that aspect.

[hujsh]

Hell yes. He's built like a twig but he has that uncompromising hunger and desire to compete. The difference between the two is stark in that aspect.

Do you think that could be the answer longer term then? English transitions to Darcy's role as Darcy becomes more able to to assert himself in the middle?

[Sedat]

Do you think that could be the answer longer term then? English transitions to Darcy's role as Darcy becomes more able to to assert himself in the middle?
It's definitely an option. English has elite traits that are in short supply in the competition. I'd like to see a bigger sample size of Darcy in ruck, as he is still sometimes a liability in there due to his lack of size/experience against the really big boys - he is only a 20 gamer with 1 decent pre-season under his belt.

So ironically English may well be worth 800-900k a season for 5 years, just not as no 1 ruck IMO. And if he exercises his FA, we have a very good AFL quality 2nd ruck/forward replacement under contract for the next 2 years. Pretty good position to be in and there's no rush at all to finalise IMO.

[JanLorMill]

Look BAD, it's time to face facts. We can just replace Tim with a dude from the bush because it's actually easy to find solid ruckmen and also we can recruit his best mate Nuggety Back Pocket who will hold Charlie Cameron to 1 goal 4 disposals in a final for us. Worst case find someone's 4th ruck and pay him 50k a year and watch him become the next Hudson. These are all strategies likely to succeed. No further elaboration or context is required. (this is partly making fun of my own comments previously since my thoughts weren't too far from this pre-season)


No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

[Mitcha]

One with a bit of aggression and who isn?t pushed out of the contest.

Name names then mate, who would fit your parameters and how would we get them. Don't give me the problem, give me a solution. By the way I actually think you may be Danjul in disguise who is still dirty that Sweety has departed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Boy this thread is gonna be fun reading after the Port match. Only one of Team Sweety or Team Timmy can win.

[mighty_west]

I like Timmy, but he does have his limitations as we all know, i just really see him as a big loaf of a Utility player, if he was playing in the 80's the Scanlans footy card would label him as a Utility, a little like Lobb, can play forward like Lobb, can ruck a bit like Lobb but is better generally around the ground than Lobb although Lobbly can certainly have his days.

I think it was Richmomd earlier in the season where they played their two rucks Nank and Naismith in the same game, it just didn't work because both would be seen as number 1 ruck types, can ruck well but limited around the ground, can't really park them forward or back where's for mine, English and Lobb are the opposite, not excellent in the ruck contest but can play a key position role which is why i brought up a while back that Freo should look to trying to swap Darcy and English or at least trade out Sean and bring Timmy in, as Jackson would be the perfect number 1 ruck whilst Timmy plays forward 70% or so of the time to compliment their other key forwards (not what i want but what Freo should be looking at).

Maybe one of those 4 way deals where Geelong get Darcy, Freo get English, Dogs get Barrass and WC get draft picks from Geelong or something like that, all needs for each club.

We obviously have an offer on the table for Tim and should NOT go above what we think as a club he is worth, if he and his camp are expecting more then 'ta ta thanks for your services but more than happy to keep him for what the club believes he is worth.

[jeemak]

No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

hujsh kinda said it, thus him saying so in his post.

[hujsh]

No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

Who rucks next year?

[JanLorMill]

Name names then mate, who would fit your parameters and how would we get them. Don't give me the problem, give me a solution. By the way I actually think you may be Danjul in disguise who is still dirty that Sweety has departed.
I’ve already gone through this and others have too. We have Darcy still raw and at 550K Lobb could do it. I’m not pushing English out he isn’t worth 900K a season.

[hujsh]

I’ve already gone through this and others have too. We have Darcy still raw and at 550K Lobb could do it. I’m not pushing English out he isn’t worth 900K a season.

So it's Darcy and Lobb. If Lobb locks down a spot in defence (big IF so early in the experiment but a good start) that leaves us with Darcy and... Smith? Not super reassuring. There just has to be an alternative if we're letting him walk because we don't want to pay 900k. Especially when 900K post salary cap increases is probably not that much more than the likes of Darcy Cameron (though I can find nothing to indicate his salary so that is guesswork). That's why it's not just a question of 'Is English worth it' it's 'is English worth it in context of the alternatives'.

It's not like we have a bunch of big name recruits lining up to join us and we're losing Smith/lost Dunkley. If English signed at 900K for reasonable length we have something to work with at least. He's frustrating as **** but I'm warming to the idea of him transitioning more forward as Darcy matures giving us maybe the best 1-2 ruck combo in the competition. The way he's going that number is steadily dropping anyway so maybe we get him cheaper (is that a bright side to him struggling?)

[JanLorMill]

So it's Darcy and Lobb. If Lobb locks down a spot in defence (big IF so early in the experiment but a good start) that leaves us with Darcy and... Smith? Not super reassuring. There just has to be an alternative if we're letting him walk because we don't want to pay 900k. Especially when 900K post salary cap increases is probably not that much more than the likes of Darcy Cameron (though I can find nothing to indicate his salary so that is guesswork). That's why it's not just a question of 'Is English worth it' it's 'is English worth it in context of the alternatives'.

It's not like we have a bunch of big name recruits lining up to join us and we're losing Smith/lost Dunkley. If English signed at 900K for reasonable length we have something to work with at least. He's frustrating as **** but I'm warming to the idea of him transitioning more forward as Darcy matures giving us maybe the best 1-2 ruck combo in the competition. The way he's going that number is steadily dropping anyway so maybe we get him cheaper (is that a bright side to him struggling?)
I went through this at least a month ago.
Lobb?s one game at CHB hasn?t suddenly made a star there. We are after Barrass anyway. If he is required in the ruck, then he is the best alternative. If you think 3 listed rucks isn?t enough then get Bryan type as insurance.
Little proof English will work as a ruck forward.

[hujsh]

I went through this at least a month ago.
Lobb?s one game at CHB hasn?t suddenly made a star there. We are after Barrass anyway. If he is required in the ruck, then he is the best alternative. If you think 3 listed rucks isn?t enough then get Bryan type as insurance.
Little proof English will work as a ruck forward.

Where is bloody Danjul?

If Lobb has cemented himself at CBH by the end of the year moving him to the ruck to avoid paying English feels like playing silly buggers. Leaves us with 2 rucks, if we put to the side for a moment our interest in Barass that's totally leading to a trade and in no way is just to pressure WCE into doing the contract extension.

[EasternWest]

Who rucks next year?

Dunkley

[JanLorMill]

Where is bloody Danjul?

If Lobb has cemented himself at CBH by the end of the year moving him to the ruck to avoid paying English feels like playing silly buggers. Leaves us with 2 rucks, if we put to the side for a moment our interest in Barass that's totally leading to a trade and in no way is just to pressure WCE into doing the contract extension.
Again with the tall wagging the dog. You want team success you put the players in the spots which best suits the team not the individual. We missed Grundy for this very reason. Lobb is the best option as a backup ruck.

[JanLorMill]

Where is bloody Danjul?

If Lobb has cemented himself at CBH by the end of the year moving him to the ruck to avoid paying English feels like playing silly buggers. Leaves us with 2 rucks, if we put to the side for a moment our interest in Barass that's totally leading to a trade and in no way is just to pressure WCE into doing the contract extension.
Put aside Lobb is a good CHB as well then.
What?s more likely anyway? Barrass coming, Lobb become a good CHB or us developing a decent CHB with our young guys?

[mighty_west]

Again with the tall wagging the dog. You want team success you put the players in the spots which best suits the team not the individual. We missed Grundy for this very reason. Lobb is the best option as a backup ruck.

I do agree kind of, it's like the Naughton argument where's he's really good as a CHF but for team balance with all our forward stocks he may have been more valuable for the "team structure" at CHB, hopefully now Lobb can cement that position for the rest of his career with us, as that would be awesome for our structure going forward and would stop that argument about the Naughton move, if we also magically are able to get Barrass then even better, that really strengthens up our back end, am i confident in getting Barrass? no, but there is always hope when there are reports of the club making a huge play.

As for Tim, i'd rather keep him but wouldn't be shattered if he was to move on, as his best asset is something we have enough of, talls around the ground who can take a grab, Jones and Lobb with his big bucket hands, Naughty, Jamarra and Darce are all great marks, they all move well too and impact the game away from their set positions.

But if Tim was to move on we would have to have a play in the making to bring in an experienced or sorts ruckman to play as our number 1, who would that be? who knows but i'm sure the Sam "Powers" at be should be having all bases covered there. (parden the pun)

[hujsh]

Again with the tall wagging the dog. You want team success you put the players in the spots which best suits the team not the individual. We missed Grundy for this very reason. Lobb is the best option as a backup ruck.

I like how you pretend to know the reasoning for not pursuing Grundy. Please enlighten us if you have the inside scoop

I think you're letting the tail wag the dog if (in this admittedly hypothetical scenario for now) you're willing to move someone who has actually locked down a crucial position (key defender) to make them play a role that they're decent at so you can justify not paying someone what's likely an extra 200K. Who exactly we play down back instead of Lobb is not exactly clear either so there's a gap somewhere in this scenario regardless. Isn't that a bad outcome for our fortunes next year? Isn't that getting in the way of team success?

Now if Lobb has a shit week and gets exiled it's all moot and he's back as an option for first ruck but we'll just have to wait and see on that one.


Again with the tall wagging the dog. You want team success you put the players in the spots which best suits the team not the individual. We missed Grundy for this very reason. Lobb is the best option as a backup ruck.
Do you mean backup ruck or alternate option for first ruck. Because I think I remember you arguing that he was too expensive to be a backup so I assume you mean the latter.

[hujsh]

I do agree kind of, it's like the Naughton argument where's he's really good as a CHF but for team balance with all our forward stocks he may have been more valuable for the "team structure" at CHB, hopefully now Lobb can cement that position for the rest of his career with us, as that would be awesome for our structure going forward and would stop that argument about the Naughton move, if we also magically are able to get Barrass then even better, that really strengthens up our back end, am i confident in getting Barrass? no, but there is always hope when there are reports of the club making a huge play.

As for Tim, i'd rather keep him but wouldn't be shattered if he was to move on, as his best asset is something we have enough of, talls around the ground who can take a grab, Jones and Lobb with his big bucket hands, Naughty, Jamarra and Darce are all great marks, they all move well too and impact the game away from their set positions.

But if Tim was to move on we would have to have a play in the making to bring in an experienced or sorts ruckman to play as our number 1, who would that be? who knows but i'm sure the Sam "Powers" at be should be having all bases covered there. (parden the pun)

That's the issue. The market seems kind of bare this year. That GC bloke seemed a main target for a few clubs and he signed on. Port brought in 2 options that haven't set the world on fire. Maybe there's a smokey out there but there are probably 20 other plodders you'd have to get through to find them.

[hujsh]

Dunkley

That's his ironic punishment in hell along with not bland mexican food

[bornadog]

That's his ironic punishment in hell along with not bland mexican food

He has rucked for Brisbane when they had injuries early on

[mighty_west]

That's the issue. The market seems kind of bare this year. That GC bloke seemed a main target for a few clubs and he signed on. Port brought in 2 options that haven't set the world on fire. Maybe there's a smokey out there but there are probably 20 other plodders you'd have to get through to find them.

Yeah Moyle would have been a good get although there were a few clubs asking the question apparently and GC moved fast to give him a very nice pay rise, i wonder if Rowan Marshall or Tristan Xerri would like to play in a team ready to take on finals and earn a nice big fat pay rise at the same time?

[JanLorMill]

I like how you pretend to know the reasoning for not pursuing Grundy. Please enlighten us if you have the inside scoop
.
You don't remember we went for Lobb instead. English had to be the first ruck. Hardly a scoop

[JanLorMill]

I think you're letting the tail wag the dog if (in this admittedly hypothetical scenario for now) you're willing to move someone who has actually locked down a crucial position (key defender) to make them play a role that they're decent at so you can justify not paying someone what's likely an extra 200K. Who exactly we play down back instead of Lobb is not exactly clear either so there's a gap somewhere in this scenario regardless. Isn't that a bad outcome for our fortunes next year? Isn't that getting in the way of team success?
When did Lobb suddenly become Harris Andrews? He might be but even if he does he is 31 now.


Now if Lobb has a shit week and gets exiled it's all moot and he's back as an option for first ruck but we'll just have to wait and see on that one.
So only your hypotheticals are plausible


Do you mean backup ruck or alternate option for first ruck. Because I think I remember you arguing that he was too expensive to be a backup so I assume you mean the latter.
Now you are just making stuff up

[hujsh]

You don't remember we went for Lobb instead. English had to be the first ruck. Hardly a scoop

You're just making up the reasoning. It may have been we were already committed to Lobb, it may have been we thought Grundy was cooked. You have no way of knowing for sure but speak with such certainty.

[JanLorMill]

You're just making up the reasoning. It may have been we were already committed to Lobb, it may have been we thought Grundy was cooked. You have no way of knowing for sure but speak with such certainty.
No its obvious we went for Lobb and because of that we couldn't go for Grundy

[hujsh]

When did Lobb suddenly become Harris Andrews? He might be but even if he does he is 31 now.




if (in this admittedly hypothetical scenario for now) you're willing to move someone who has actually locked down a crucial position (key defender)
Just a hypothetical that he plays the position to a decent level for the rest of the year I'm not sure why that's not a valid scenario to consider. As for his age. Yes. He is 31. Well done? Not sure what that has to do with our Team Success.


So only your hypotheticals are plausible
IDK what you mean I'm just admitting that if he doesn't perform my hypothetical is redundant.


Now you are just making stuff up
Gee not to quote myself again but


Do you mean backup ruck or alternate option for first ruck. Because I think I remember you arguing that he was too expensive to be a backup so I assume you mean the latter.

I do remember someone very insistent that 550K is far too much to pay for a backup ruck and they conducted themselves a lot like you as I recall but that's, once again, my recollection. Deny it was you if you please, I could be wrong, but I'm not making anything up.

Edit:

? Not sure what you trying to say here?
Lobb was recruited as forward ruck but is now mainly playing as a vfl ruck. If we wanted a backup ruck, there are always cheap and reasonable options like Naismith, goldsmith , etc I highly doubt Sweet is on 500K too.
Not arguing Macrae is on big coin, slightly different as he still playing firsts.
As I wrote already, we won’t be getting much for either if traded.

This is what I was referring to.

Sorry to everyone for breaking the Narc rule but I feel I was provoked

[hujsh]

No its obvious we went for Lobb and because of that we couldn't go for Grundy

No, it's obvious we didn't want Grundy because we'd have gone after him the year before.

See I can say stuff with nothing to back it up too. Doesn't mean I'm right.

For all you know we did approach him and he said no twice. You. Just. Don't. Know

Anyway even if Barass comes to us, Jones is I believe 60 years old so I'm sure we can work things out if Lobb is competent in defence.

[JanLorMill]

No, it's obvious we didn't want Grundy because we'd have gone after him the year before.

See I can say stuff with nothing to back it up too. Doesn't mean I'm right.

For all you know we did approach him and he said no twice. You. Just. Don't. Know

Anyway even if Barass comes to us, Jones is I believe 60 years old so I'm sure we can work things out if Lobb is competent in defence.
That’s ok if your memory isn’t great.

[JanLorMill]

Just a hypothetical that he plays the position to a decent level for the rest of the year I'm not sure why that's not a valid scenario to consider. As for his age. Yes. He is 31. Well done? Not sure what that has to do with our Team Success.

IDK what you mean I'm just admitting that if he doesn't perform my hypothetical is redundant.

Gee not to quote myself again but


I do remember someone very insistent that 550K is far too much to pay for a backup ruck and they conducted themselves a lot like you as I recall but that's, once again, my recollection. Deny it was you if you please, I could be wrong, but I'm not making anything up.

Edit:


This is what I was referring to.

Sorry to everyone for breaking the Narc rule but I feel I was provoked
What’s this got to do with anything?

[hujsh]

That’s ok if your memory isn’t great.


What’s this got to do with anything?
You did your best mate

[bulldogtragic]

Had enough. Line through him from me now. I was in the camp of keep him but in a fair salary.

I want the compo.

[Mantis]

Nothing. Remove our offer and let him walk.

[JanLorMill]

Nothing. Remove our offer and let him walk.
Exactly which other club would want him? Again 900K is way overs

[bulldogtragic]

Nothing. Remove our offer and let him walk.

Yep. Enough is enough.

[hujsh]

Is this the worst 'big contract year' ever?

[Mofra]

Lobb & Darcy is a decent ruck duo. I still think we need mature ruck support though.
The English experiment is over. He'd be a good second ruck/forward but he's not the main man.

[EasternWest]

Is this the worst 'big contract year' ever?

Word is Jake Stringer was overheard calling Tim.a "contract year amateur"

[josie]

How bad is Tim’s competitiveness today? Time to withdraw contract?

[azabob]

How bad is Tim’s competitiveness today? Time to withdraw contract?

Are you trolling the entire board?

[bulldogtragic]

How bad is Tim’s competitiveness today? Time to withdraw contract?

I hope Power has done it already.

[JanLorMill]

The writing was on the wall years ago with English. We are trying to cash out when his value is low and his deficiencies now apparent to everyone means I doubt there many suitors.

[bulldogtragic]

The writing was on the wall years ago with English. We are trying to cash out when his value is low and his deficiencies now apparent to everyone means I doubt there many suitors.

The only hope is that with free agency they offer more cash to avoid a trade of giving anything up. Maybe someone bites if they have a heap of free cap. Hawks or North might like a second tall forward who can theoretically ruck.

[josie]

Are you trolling the entire board?

Kinda Azabob. I think it’s better for my blood pressure than actually watching the game.

[JanLorMill]

One thing is we need to recalibrate the poll. No club in their right mind would pay $1M.

[Sedat]

Was a very small and lonely bandwagon way back in 2019.

[hujsh]

One thing is we need to recalibrate the poll. No club in their right mind would pay $1M.

I'd be happy to redo it but I think you need a new thread to start a new poll. Unless it's something a mod can tweak

[EasternWest]

I'd be happy to redo it but I think you need a new thread to start a new poll. Unless it's something a mod can tweak

Are you suggesting it's time for a jeemak "Trade English" thread?

[JanLorMill]

I'd be happy to redo it but I think you need a new thread to start a new poll. Unless it's something a mod can tweak
No worries it’s worthy of another comic thread.

[CarnTheScray]

Lobb & Darcy is a decent ruck duo. I still think we need mature ruck support though.
The English experiment is over. He'd be a good second ruck/forward but he's not the main man.

The experiment was over 5 years ago but when it comes to making big decisions, this club is laggard.

Anyone could see that he didn?t have the physical intensity (in colloquial terms we?d say ?pea heart?) back then, even I was holding out hope that he?d break out of it but it?s just who he is.

[GVGjr]

Just read a stat that says that in his 16 games this season English has lost the hit outs to his opponent 14 times and the other two contests were draws. While the devil is in the detail it does confirm we are more or less okay with the concept of losing the hit outs but gaining his mobility around the ground.

[Grantysghost]

Just read a stat that says that in his 16 games this season English has lost the hit outs to his opponent 14 times and the other two contests were draws. While the devil is in the detail it does confirm we are more or less okay with the concept of losing the hit outs but gaining his mobility around the ground.

Unless we play our nemesis Sweety! Then he is banished for Darcy.

[Danjul]

Just read a stat that says that in his 16 games this season English has lost the hit outs to his opponent 14 times and the other two contests were draws. While the devil is in the detail it does confirm we are more or less okay with the concept of losing the hit outs but gaining his mobility around the ground.
In my opinion we have wasted a lot of success in the way we have used English. We put him where the ball is going from instead of where it is going to.

with a tap ruckman in his prime giving the ball to our midfields who delivered to English we would have been in more finals and won more finals. Unfortunately we took a different path and wasted a good era.

Also, we do play English in a semi-Hunter (the player) role where he gets into space off to the side, accepts a pass and then does a 20 m sideways chip to a small player. This slows our transition from defence and allows the opposition to cover our forwards.

Yesterday the Port game plan quickly bypassed their ruckman and got ball forward as quickly as possible. Then the ruckman restarted things as needed.

English is a great talent, successful player and, like a few others, wasted opportunity.

Sad.

[hujsh]

In my opinion we have wasted a lot of success in the way we have used English. We put him where the ball is going from instead of where it is going to.

with a tap ruckman in his prime giving the ball to our midfields who delivered to English we would have been in more finals and won more finals. Unfortunately we took a different path and wasted a good era.

Also, we do play English in a semi-Hunter (the player) role where he gets into space off to the side, accepts a pass and then does a 20 m sideways chip to a small player. This slows our transition from defence and allows the opposition to cover our forwards.

Yesterday the Port game plan quickly bypassed their ruckman and got ball forward as quickly as possible. Then the ruckman restarted things as needed.

English is a great talent, successful player and, like a few others, wasted opportunity.

Sad.

Drives me mad

[jeemak]

Drives me mad

Tim's another one of those players who thinks it's awesome if he's the one who kicks it. Irrespective of his skills, there's still nothing worse on a footy field than a ruckman with ambitions.

[bornadog]

Just read a stat that says that in his 16 games this season English has lost the hit outs to his opponent 14 times and the other two contests were draws. While the devil is in the detail it does confirm we are more or less okay with the concept of losing the hit outs but gaining his mobility around the ground.

Still sits 4th in AFL for Hitouts to Adv. Hitouts are useless unless your team can get their hands on the ball. Rozee and Butler completely torched our mids in the first half by being able to win the ball from ruck contests and use their pace to runaway from the contest.

[bornadog]

Tim's another one of those players who thinks it's awesome if he's the one who kicks it. Irrespective of his skills, there's still nothing worse on a footy field than a ruckman with ambitions.

Needs a quick paced player always running past and getting the handball off English so the ball moves quickly. Gary Dempsey one of the all time great ruckman, rarely kicked the ball, he was a shocking kick. However, he always had someone there to take the handball and move the ball.

[bulldogtragic]

The compo right now is Pick 9.

If Tim played at another club. Would we be targeting him with a $1M multi year deal and foregoing Pick 9?

No.

[Virgin-Dog]

Have to go back on what I?ve said previously in this thread. With the increase in cap, his potential million dollar deal is only really the equivalent of $750k in recent year, but even that feels a massive stretch now to pay.

He doesn?t have enough impact around the ground these days to justify the massive salary. I?d rather push forward with Lobb/Darcy and invest that salary in a quality defender like Barrass and forget about English dropping back to intercept.

In a few years time when Lobb is done, Lachie Smith may be ready to take over anyway. He?s looked great for such a young player in the VFL, and wouldn?t get bullied in stoppages like English does.

If English accepts a shorter deal on ~$700k then sure. But geez I?d be hesitant to pay much more. He?s gone a mile backwards this year

[chef]

Are we happy for Lobb to be our number 1 ruck next season?

[bulldogtragic]

Are we happy for Lobb to be our number 1 ruck next season?

If we have a top 10 pick and salary and the pick from Baz to chase a Barass. Then from an overall perspective yes, unless a cheap option comes about like maybe Ladhams.

[jeemak]

Are we happy for Lobb to be our number 1 ruck next season?

No. If you reckon Tim is ineffective over the course of a game week-in week-out then you're going to be really livid once you see what Lobb dishes up, with Darcy as his sidekick.

The market will dictate what Tim's ultimately worth, and if that's $1m p.a. then so be it. I just want to limit the exposure in terms of years.

[G-Mo77]

Are we happy for Lobb to be our number 1 ruck next season?

I wouldn't say happy but think it's a better option for the team going forward. Lobb/Darcy is what I'd be looking next season and spend the money we would have put into English elsewhere.

[GVGjr]

Are we happy for Lobb to be our number 1 ruck next season?
It's not something that I think will work for a long stretch in a season.

[jeemak]

I wouldn't say happy but think it's a better option for the team going forward. Lobb/Darcy is what I'd be looking next season and spend the money we would have put into English elsewhere.

This is the problem though, on who do we spend that money? Do we add a couple of depth players? Do we land that big fish who has historically never come to the Bulldogs?

Do we front load a couple of contract extensions?

I don't see how any of these are equal to or materially better than worrying about paying English his market value. Landing the big fish would be great, but it will take a change in historical outcomes for it to happen.

[Danjul]

Needs a quick paced player always running past and getting the handball off English so the ball moves quickly. Gary Dempsey one of the all time great ruckman, rarely kicked the ball, he was a shocking kick. However, he always had someone there to take the handball and move the ball.
This ?run-past? aspect is a serious omission in our recent games.

We replaced it with mark the ball ? stop ? shuffle back ? stop ? look backwards? think about it? when you are sure the opposition backs are in place? long bomb.

yesterday Port moved the ball very quickly, often without looking because the game plan said someone will be there, so the forwards still had space to work in. JUH is playing poorly, but part of it is because he is playing with a defender in position. The modern game is move fast through the corridor and kick in front of a forward moving diagonally into empty space near goal. We usually lack the fast, corridor, diagonal and space aspects.

[Sedat]

Interesting stat on English from Champion Data this week. In 2023 English was the 17th rated player in the competition when he was AA ruckman - by contrast in every other season since 2019 (including this year) he has not even been in the top 160 players in the comp in any of those years.

That is not the profile you want from a 5+ year $1m a season player, and perhaps that is why there has been a cooling off of genuine interest from other clubs. Important 7 weeks coming up for Tim to put it mildly.

[Grantysghost]

Interesting stat on English from Champion Data this week. In 2023 English was the 17th rated player in the competition when he was AA ruckman - by contrast in every other season since 2019 (including this year) he has not even been in the top 160 players in the comp in any of those years.

That is not the profile you want from a 5+ year $1m a season player, and perhaps that is why there has been a cooling off of genuine interest from other clubs. Important 7 weeks coming up for Tim to put it mildly.

It's that competitive edge that is a real issue with Tim since always.

Matt Rendell when he was Pies recruiter had this concern on him as a u/18.

[Bullies]

I wouldn't say happy but think it's a better option for the team going forward. Lobb/Darcy is what I'd be looking next season and spend the money we would have put into English elsewhere. Who would we spend the money on? We are not a destination club unfortunately.

Maybe we reinvent Tim and play him as a CHB.

I think his value has definitely dropped as clubs are not willing to pay the currency his manangement think he is worth. If they were it would be out there by now.

[Mofra]

I wouldn't say happy but think it's a better option for the team going forward. Lobb/Darcy is what I'd be looking next season and spend the money we would have put into English elsewhere.
Lobb is a better ruckman. I will die on this hill.
English is incredible around the ground, perhaps the best in the AFL at it, but at his peak his ruck work is 'passable'.

Use the cash on Langdon (covers the loss of English's link play) + a mature back up ruck. Lobb/Darcy 50/50

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting stat on English from Champion Data this week. In 2023 English was the 17th rated player in the competition when he was AA ruckman - by contrast in every other season since 2019 (including this year) he has not even been in the top 160 players in the comp in any of those years.

That is not the profile you want from a 5+ year $1m a season player, and perhaps that is why there has been a cooling off of genuine interest from other clubs. Important 7 weeks coming up for Tim to put it mildly.

Even if he has an ok 7 weeks, I think he’s shown every 18 clubs what he really is and what he’s not. What he may be isn’t worth the years with concussion risk and certainly isn’t worth the huge hit to a salary cap. I really hope he turns his year around but he seems absent and I can’t remember a single player in a huge contract year delivering such an average pitch for a huge contract. If other club interest stops way short, the compo might not be a top 10 pick and then what.?.?.?.,

[Bullies]

Even if he has an ok 7 weeks, I think he’s shown every 18 clubs what he really is and what he’s not. What he may be isn’t worth the years with concussion risk and certainly isn’t worth the huge hit to a salary cap. I really hope he turns his year around but he seems absent and I can’t remember a single player in a huge contract year delivering such an average pitch for a huge contract. If other club interest stops way short, the compo might not be a top 10 pick and then what.?.?.?., Agree. Being one hit away from retirement it is a huge investment by another club knowing what the outcome could be for such a large investment. There is also the legal side that clubs would need to worry about as well.

I think our club have been generous in their current offer and that there maybe a bit of "buyer beware" in the market place.

[bulldogtragic]

Agree. Being one hit away from retirement it is a huge investment by another club knowing what the outcome could be for such a large investment. There is also the legal side that clubs would need to worry about as well.

I think our club have been generous in their current offer and that there maybe a bit of "buyer beware" in the market place.

I wonder then how long it takes for him to sign the contract as I doubt we’ve pulled it? He’s clearly in no rush to accept our offer but at some point he’s going to have to accept he’s simply not worth his ambit claim. If the media reporting on other clubs is accurate and say the best he gets is 4 years around $800,000 that might NOT trigger band 1 compo, so the compo will be pick 33-35 after higher compo shuffles picks down. It’s not worth letting him go for a mid-30’s pick. He’s really complicated everything with such a poor year.

As he’s an RFA and we can match the bid. I’d not sign him and see what the market says to see if we wrangle a top 10 pick or if not, keep him at market rates which is lower.

A few good games from here I don’t think changes anyone’s calculation. Tim should’ve just signed and focused on delivering on a really good contract.

[Danjul]

Who would we spend the money on? We are not a destination club unfortunately.

Maybe we reinvent Tim and play him as a CHB.

I think his value has definitely dropped as clubs are not willing to pay the currency his manangement think he is worth. If they were it would be out there by now.
It has been obvious for 5 years that English is a champion go-through player.

Unfortunately he is tall and the Dogs have not had any idea of what to do with them.

Like an apprentice who doesn?t know nails and screws are specialised. Use them interchangeably and fail often.

[Grantysghost]

Even if he has an ok 7 weeks, I think he?s shown every 18 clubs what he really is and what he?s not. What he may be isn?t worth the years with concussion risk and certainly isn?t worth the huge hit to a salary cap. I really hope he turns his year around but he seems absent and I can?t remember a single player in a huge contract year delivering such an average pitch for a huge contract. If other club interest stops way short, the compo might not be a top 10 pick and then what.?.?.?.,

It's interesting because he probably held off signing, backing himself to be able to generate competition and a better deal with us. Might have backfired. I'd say he probably is going to have to take the deal that's been tabled unless it's already been withdrawn (I'm not sure how long these deals stay valid?).

[Grantysghost]

Even if he has an ok 7 weeks, I think he?s shown every 18 clubs what he really is and what he?s not. What he may be isn?t worth the years with concussion risk and certainly isn?t worth the huge hit to a salary cap. I really hope he turns his year around but he seems absent and I can?t remember a single player in a huge contract year delivering such an average pitch for a huge contract. If other club interest stops way short, the compo might not be a top 10 pick and then what.?.?.?.,

Duplicate.

[bulldogtragic]

It's interesting because he probably held off signing, backing himself to be able to generate competition and a better deal with us. Might have backfired. I'd say he probably is going to have to take the deal that's been tabled unless it's already been withdrawn (I'm not sure how long these deals stay valid?).

With the recent 3 year rule on paying out concussion retirements, that could give us cover to say we need to review our offer…

[Sedat]

A few good games from here I don?t think changes anyone?s calculation. Tim should?ve just signed and focused on delivering on a really good contract.
If he replicates his early 2023 form for the remainder of the year and we make finals, I think that moves the needle and he will get some nibbles from other clubs.

Unfortunately if you take his per season output over the last 7 years (which is an awfully long sample size), the odds of such a form resurgence are basically 1 in 7 (or under 15% in percentage terms).

[hujsh]

If he replicates his early 2023 form for the remainder of the year and we make finals, I think that moves the needle and he will get some nibbles from other clubs.

Unfortunately if you take his per season output over the last 7 years (which is an awfully long sample size), the odds of such a form resurgence are basically 1 in 7 (or under 15% in percentage terms).

Then it becomes a big question of whether he can perform in a final with the heat really on. Win one and it does a lot more for his asking price

[Sedat]

Then it becomes a big question of whether he can perform in a final with the heat really on. Win one and it does a lot more for his asking price
Honest question - has he ever performed at a high level as no 1 ruckman in a final? He can change this of course, but history is not on his side. By my calculations he's played 7 finals (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Was overawed in 2019 EF against GWS (absolutely nobody played well to be fair)
2. Conceded 4 critical stoppage goals (against Ryder) in low scoring loss in 2020 EF against St Kilda - was totally schooled
3. Essendon 2021 EF - can't recall if he played well
4. Brisbane 2021 SF - Lewis Young was preferred as no 1 ruckman
5. Port 2021 EF - Stef Martin rushed back as no 1 ruckman. English played well as no 2 ruck/forward
6. Melbourne 2021 GF - overawed and outgunned (being kind)
7. Freo 2022 EF - Sean Darcy destroyed him in ruck

Is 2023 the actual outlier season, and he's actually only ever going to be a pretty average AFL-standard no 1 ruckman? The fact that a player given 7 years of precious chances as no 1 ruckman still has so many question marks in his primary position is concerning to say the least. If he is re-contracted at the kennel, we need to have an honest conversation about his best role in the team - IMO it clearly isn't as no 1 ruckman

[hujsh]

Honest question - has he ever performed at a high level as no 1 ruckman in a final? He can change this of course, but history is not on his side. By my calculations he's played 7 finals (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Was overawed in 2019 EF against GWS (absolutely nobody played well to be fair)
2. Conceded 4 critical stoppage goals (against Ryder) in low scoring loss in 2020 EF against St Kilda - was totally schooled
3. Essendon 2021 EF - can't recall if he played well
4. Brisbane 2021 SF - Lewis Young was preferred as no 1 ruckman
5. Port 2021 EF - Stef Martin rushed back as no 1 ruckman. English played well as no 2 ruck/forward
6. Melbourne 2021 GF - overawed and outgunned (being kind)
7. Freo 2022 EF - Sean Darcy destroyed him in ruck

Is 2023 the actual outlier season, and he's actually only ever going to be a pretty average AFL-standard no 1 ruckman? The fact that a player given 7 years of precious chances as no 1 ruckman still has so many question marks in his primary position is concerning to say the least. If he is re-contracted at the kennel, we need to have an honest conversation about his best role in the team - IMO it clearly isn't as no 1 ruckman
I might be misremembering but I think we did a bit better with English in the ruck against Brisbane and the game that didn't happen so I don't know why it's listed I believe Martin was the one that was rucking when the tide turned. Does that answer positively the question 'has he ever performed at a high level as no 1 ruckman in a final?' Probably not?

[Rocket Science]

Honest question - has he ever performed at a high level as no 1 ruckman in a final? He can change this of course, but history is not on his side. By my calculations he's played 7 finals (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Was overawed in 2019 EF against GWS (absolutely nobody played well to be fair)
2. Conceded 4 critical stoppage goals (against Ryder) in low scoring loss in 2020 EF against St Kilda - was totally schooled
3. Essendon 2021 EF - can't recall if he played well
4. Brisbane 2021 SF - Lewis Young was preferred as no 1 ruckman
5. Port 2021 EF - Stef Martin rushed back as no 1 ruckman. English played well as no 2 ruck/forward
6. Melbourne 2021 GF - overawed and outgunned (being kind)
7. Freo 2022 EF - Sean Darcy destroyed him in ruck

Is 2023 the actual outlier season, and he's actually only ever going to be a pretty average AFL-standard no 1 ruckman? The fact that a player given 7 years of precious chances as no 1 ruckman still has so many question marks in his primary position is concerning to say the least. If he is re-contracted at the kennel, we need to have an honest conversation about his best role in the team - IMO it clearly isn't as no 1 ruckman

https://i.ibb.co/mzd2w4K/Screen-Shot-2024-07-12-at-3-10-37-pm.png (https://ibb.co/Jk8G4HT)

He was basically a non-factor against a 20-gamer who had a coming out party in spite of the lop-sided result, so ...

[bornadog]

https://i.ibb.co/mzd2w4K/Screen-Shot-2024-07-12-at-3-10-37-pm.png (https://ibb.co/Jk8G4HT)

He was basically a non-factor against a 20-gamer who had a coming out party in spite of the lop-sided result, so ...

Only 10 HTA

[hujsh]

Only 10 HTA

Tim got 3 (from 15) and Young got 5 (from 18)

Whatever role Tim was meant to be playing that game I don't think we can call him a high performer

[josie]

Pity there are no suitors. I like Tim, however if I had a choice between keeping him or B.Smith I’d prefer to keep Bailey. I’ve had a suspicion for at least 3 to 4 years that our club has been fooled by sunk cost bias, hoping Tim would become more competitive and aggressive as he matured. It hasn’t happened. Agree if he re-signs with us he should be prepared to change his role and not necessarily be number 1 ruck.

[Sedat]

Pity there are no suitors. I like Tim, however if I had a choice between keeping him or B.Smith I’d prefer to keep Bailey. I’ve had a suspicion for at least 3 to 4 years that our club has been fooled by sunk cost bias, hoping Tim would become more competitive and aggressive as he matured. It hasn’t happened. Agree if he re-signs with us he should be prepared to change his role and not necessarily be number 1 ruck.
There was a thread a couple of years ago asking for some out of the box positional suggestions for our players - at the time I thought English could be a very effective wingman. His tank is elite and he can link up with the best of them and is a very good user of the ball. The idea of wrapping your head around a 205cm wingman is strange, but it is the one position that eschews body contact in preference for aerobic capacity - it actually taps into Tim's skillset perfectly.

I have grave doubts that he will ever become a truly successful no 1 stoppage ruckman. Even last year he was smashed against opponents he should have been toying with (Lycett springs to mind). I hope I'm wrong and he shoots the lights out for us or the remainder of this year - he owes an awful lot to Bevo and the club for all the faith they've placed in him as no 1 ruckman.

[jeemak]

Sam Draper is only a year younger than English, so it's not that surprising that in 2021 they were relatively close in their maturity, and with Draper being a hit out specialist and English an around the ground ruck what was delivered that day is retrospectively understandable - to an extent.

Additionally, English was playing more time forward of the football due to Bruce's absence throughout that finals series. As was Young when Martin was out.

In 2020 he was up against an excellent/ crafty experienced ruck in Ryder and a guy who is actually a year older than Tim in Marshall. I can't remember it being four crucial goals he directly gave up, but I do remember at least one or two. That one was on us, we set him up to fail with our ruck strategy in 2020, partially due to Josh Bruce being so unfit and unable to help. At 23 Tim was still very much a developing player.

2021's GF and 2022's EF he came up against guys who were either better than him (Gawn) or bigger than him (Jackson and Darcy). Tim won't be as good as the former, nor will he be as big as the latter two and will get beaten by all three in ruck contests more often than not.

So how does Tim stay important and influential? He simply gets more of the football, influences the aerial ball physically and takes marks, and stops his opponent from scoring. Last year he improved his ruck craft and did all of those things, this year he hasn't. His ruck craft might incrementally improve from here, and I can live with that as a trade off. For him to really make me an advocate for him I need to see him do the other things from the start of each game more consistently.

Our "rolled gold" or "blue chip" midfielders need to support him more consistently around the contest. If they can't and we keep him for the next five years, we need to find midfielders who can. I've given up on worrying about his ruck work. I just want to see him play to his strengths more consistently and see his team mates/ mids cover his weaknesses more consistently (just like everyone on the field does for their weaknesses).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

My concern is we've waited 12 months too long to trade him.

I fully expect him to stay because I don't see any other club offering him what he wants (or what we would want). This is one of those forced marriages between club and player..

[mighty_west]

I just think he would be a perfect 2nd ruck option, and not necessarily the type of ruckman we need for our side, we know what his strengths are and i just don't think that "type" of ruckman should be a priority, what we need is a more aggressive dominant ruck type and not so much the tall around the ground utility, basically because we have so much height around the ground and enough to cover what Tim brings.

As supporters we love our players and appreciate their loyalty etc however as a club, sometimes i just think they need to be more aggressive and ruthless for what the TEAM needs.

[jeemak]

We seem hell bent on Tim being a first ruck who can hit the scoreboard. I'd like him, given how tall we already are forward, to be a ruck who gets back and consistently enhances our intercept game and gives off to the likes of Dale, Freija and Bramble.

Get a decent intercept game going and we hit the corridor more and open up two sides of the ground quickly going into the forward fifty. I don't know what I'm missing with this.

[Scorlibo]

We seem hell bent on Tim being a first ruck who can hit the scoreboard. I'd like him, given how tall we already are forward, to be a ruck who gets back and consistently enhances our intercept game and gives off to the likes of Dale, Freija and Bramble.

Get a decent intercept game going and we hit the corridor more and open up two sides of the ground quickly going into the forward fifty. I don't know what I'm missing with this.

Yeah agree with you, that seemed like Tim's biggest strength through his good form last year, to get back and help the defence. He reads the ball so well in flight, and boy do we need the help especially with Jones out.

Averaging 1 mark inside 50 and 1.2 intercept marks this year. Last year he averaged 0.6 marks inside 50 and 2 intercept marks. So whether through a coaching directive or his own initiative, he's impacting far more often forward of the ball versus what he was in 2023.

Given he's not signed yet, we'd be crazy not to explore options, and there's a guy by the name of Pittonet who 100% needs a new club.

[jeemak]

I much prefer when your stats back up my posts rather than debunk them.

[Go_Dogs]

Must be playing bruise free footy so he doesn?t get injured for his next club.

I was pretty comfortable with us signing him on good coin, but he?s waved that goodbye over the course of this season. He just hasn?t built upon last year, he?s gone backwards.

Would be fascinated to know where the contract talks are at.

[jeemak]

Carlton had a plan to really work over English today knowing we'd need Darcy forward, and while I was super critical of some of his careless and costly usage he met the challenge really well and was the best ruck on the ground.

Darcy as an aside had some strong moments in the second half.

[GVGjr]

Tim modified the way he went about the centre square bounce contests today. I wonder if this is something he will try again against the Cats.

[hujsh]

Tim modified the way he went about the centre square bounce contests today. I wonder if this is something he will try again against the Cats.

Was this starting more in the middle rather than trying to get a run and jump?

[GVGjr]

Was this starting more in the middle rather than trying to get a run and jump?

Yep, just pushed into the oppositions area as soon as the ball was bounced where Darcy just ran at them.

[hujsh]

Yep, just pushed into the oppositions area as soon as the ball was bounced where Darcy just ran at them.

It seems to be used against him pretty often but since he's so tall I can imagine how it might work for him or at least give the other ruck less opportunity to camp in the best spot and box English out.

[bornadog]

Loved his aggression today, he was very determined

[Happy Days]

He was great yesterday against a whole lot of ruckman.

[mighty_west]

Loved his aggression today, he was very determined

It was certainly one of his better games, was a big turnaround as i thought he looked spooked early last week against his old sparring partner, a very good game last night.

[azabob]

Surely English is gone. Why else would he have not signed by now?

Unlikely another club outside of the Eagles comes for him and we should not be improving our offer regardless how he ends the season.

[Sedat]

So a lot more people seemed to love his game this weekend, despite him being (statistically speaking) absolutely hammered by his opposition in terms of hitouts to advantage. And a lot more people hated his recent games where he smashed his direct opponents in the same stat.

He really is a mystery wrapped up inside a riddle.

[MrMahatma]

So a lot more people seemed to loved his game this weekend, despite him being (statistically speaking) absolutely hammered by his opposition in terms of hitouts to advantage. And a lot more people hated his recent games where he smashed his direct opponents in the same stat.

He really is a mystery wrapped up inside a riddle.

I didn't really like his game. My initial thoughts when watching was that he was making errors (fumbling) and taking poor options.

Bevo loved his game though so yeah...

[Angak]

According to Sam Edmund (via SEN breakfast today) the hold up on English re-signing is due to the lack of interest from rival clubs. Apparently the only significant contract offer is from us. The English camp are looking for an increase on the offer we have made but there is little incentive for us to improve on the current deal proposed as we would be basically negotiating with ourselves.

[azabob]

According to Sam Edmund (via SEN breakfast today) the hold up on English re-signing is due to the lack of interest from rival clubs. Apparently the only significant contract offer is from us. The English camp are looking for an increase on the offer we have made but there is little incentive for us to improve on the current deal proposed as we would be basically negotiating with ourselves.

Be kinda funny if Power took the opportunity to revise the offer down both $ and term wise.

[bulldogtragic]

Be kinda funny if Power took the opportunity to revise the offer down both $ and term wise.

At a minimum Power should put a time limit on it. If he wants out we need time to plan to recruit a ruck.

Does his manager think even a few good games from here will drag out other big offers? Seriously? Just sign the deal and y’all accept Tim blew his big contract with a year not commensurate with his expectations.

Power just needs to hold the line.

[mjp]

At a minimum Power should put a time limit on it. If he wants out we need time to plan to recruit a ruck.


To be fair bt, we need to plan on recruiting a ruck in any case.

We are an injury away from Sam Darcy being #1 ruck right now...and that would not end well.

Lobb will either be playing as a key back or playing elsewhere...I'm not sure we can count on him. We NEED another ruckman.