Tim English - What Price do you pay?

[bulldogtragic]

To be fair bt, we need to plan on recruiting a ruck in any case.

We are an injury away from Sam Darcy being #1 ruck right now...and that would not end well.

Lobb will either be playing as a key back or playing elsewhere...I'm not sure we can count on him. We NEED another ruckman.

No disagreement from me, I advocated getting one last year to replace Sweet as a ready to play type. Clearly the club doesn’t agree.

[bornadog]

No disagreement from me, I advocated getting one last year to replace Sweet as a ready to play type. Clearly the club doesn’t agree.

I don't think it is easy to get a decent ruckman

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think it is easy to get a decent ruckman

Not necessarily decent. But a depth ruckman should Tim have gotten injured this year. Clearly we’d prefer to use Lobb & Darcy.

[mjp]

I don't think it is easy to get a decent ruckman

Teakle was sitting there.
He plays for North now.

We don't need a #1. We need a #2a who can play if and when Tim is unavailable. We thought that would be Lobb...but now it isn't. So we need a new plan.

[bornadog]

Teakle was sitting there.
He plays for North now.

We don't need a #1. We need a #2a who can play if and when Tim is unavailable. We thought that would be Lobb...but now it isn't. So we need a new plan.

That is fair enough, things have changed with four big backmen all injured.

[Axe Man]

Teakle was sitting there.
He plays for North now.

We don't need a #1. We need a #2a who can play if and when Tim is unavailable. We thought that would be Lobb...but now it isn't. So we need a new plan.

Even if Lobb is now and in the future a key defender it doesn't prevent him from also being ruck insurance if required.

Darcy and Smith will both become more capable as they get older and more experienced.

We could add another state league type but I doubt they would ever play.

[hujsh]

Even if Lobb is now and in the future a key defender it doesn't prevent him from also being ruck insurance if required.

Darcy and Smith will both become more capable as they get older and more experienced.

We could add another state league type but I doubt they would ever play.

Yeah but you also don't want to disrupt your defence if it's working. It'd be a pretty bad outcome IMO and something to avoid if possible.

As always the question is less how and more who.

[josie]

Even if Lobb is now and in the future a key defender it doesn't prevent him from also being ruck insurance if required.

Darcy and Smith will both become more capable as they get older and more experienced.

We could add another state league type but I doubt they would ever play.

I like Smith however am concerned he gives a fair few inches to taller rucks and doesn’t seem to have much of a leap on him from what I’ve seen. Very competitive, so I like that aspect, and reasonably mobile around ground. Do woofers think he’ll make it in AFL?

[bornadog]

I like Smith however am concerned he gives a fair few inches to taller rucks and doesn’t seem to have much of a leap on him from what I’ve seen. Very competitive, so I like that aspect, and reasonably mobile around ground. Do woofers think he’ll make it in AFL?

Very young Tall, so hard to judge at this stage.

[GVGjr]

To be fair bt, we need to plan on recruiting a ruck in any case.

We are an injury away from Sam Darcy being #1 ruck right now...and that would not end well.

Lobb will either be playing as a key back or playing elsewhere...I'm not sure we can count on him. We NEED another ruckman.

Agreed, we went into the season one ruck man light on.

[mighty_west]

Ridiculous from McDoogs and Co, they could have this deal done and dusted and just let him play, he's clearly not up to last year's form, even with that, Will Minson was AA one year too, you want a consistent high level body of work to demand such a big contract imo, yeah sure we know what he is good at is really good, but as a ruckman he isn't to me, the complete package, want him to stay yes, but am happy to back the clubs judgement on what he is worth given our offer on the table.

[GVGjr]

Ridiculous from McDoogs and Co, they could have this deal done and dusted and just let him play, he's clearly not up to last year's form, even with that, Will Minson was AA one year too, you want a consistent high level body of work to demand such a big contract imo, yeah sure we know what he is good at is really good, but as a ruckman he isn't to me, the complete package, want him to stay yes, but am happy to back the clubs judgement on what he is worth given our offer on the table.

It's his last big deal so I can't blame him or his manager for trying to make the most out of it. He still deserves to get a good deal but it appears Power has read the market correctly and put forward a competitive but not excessive offer.

[JanLorMill]

Is it that bad if we go into 2025 with Darcy as our no.1 ruck? I know he is young but he is a star in the making. I’ll even take Bryan as a backup.
Why we even worried whether Lobb makes it as defender. Great if he does but It’s not a long term option anyway.

[FrediKanoute]

It's his last big deal so I can't blame him or his manager for trying to make the most out of it. He still deserves to get a good deal but it appears Power has read the market correctly and put forward a competitive but not excessive offer.

I agree. I don't blame the management team for pushing. Who knows if English had run into a rich vein of form he may have generated offers. If anything its worked in reverse for him. Unless he is backing himself to have a big 5 or 6 weeks he should probably sign the deal.

[Rocket Science]

We don't need a #1. We need a #2a who can play if and when Tim is unavailable. We thought that would be Lobb...but now it isn't. So we need a new plan.

It's time.

https://i.ibb.co/mRs0wPh/Cc1-DDBHUUAABs-Uz.jpg (https://ibb.co/51DkyJs)

#bringSoupyhome

[Happy Days]

Price of the brick went up tonight. Outstanding game

[Grantysghost]

Wrong thread!

[macca]

Price of the brick went up tonight. Outstanding game

Maybe, I think the question to Tim is does he want to play in a team that is contesting vs massive $$$ elsewhere and linger in the bottom 8 ?

[whythelongface]

Price of the brick went up tonight. Outstanding game

Is this close to the best game he has played ? He was aggressive took pack marks, good below his knees and rucked well

[hujsh]

11 HTA
3 Intercept Marks and 6 Intercept Posessions
6 One Percenters
15 Pressure Acts
2 Goal Assists
6 Spoils

Just some areas he seemed to do well and contribute outside his HO and Disposal numbers

[JanLorMill]

Best game of the year still not worth 900K

[jeemak]

11 HTA
3 Intercept Marks and 6 Intercept Posessions
6 One Percenters
15 Pressure Acts
2 Goal Assists
6 Spoils

Just some areas he seemed to do well and contribute outside his HO and Disposal numbers

Sorry mate, detailed stats don't matter when we're talking about Tim. Which is great, because this week he got 41 hit outs!!!!!

41 hit outs!!!!! 41 hit outs....so on and so forth.



Seriously, he got pushed around a few times early, but outside of that he was excellent and clearly the dominant ruck on the ground. He played an excellent game.

[whythelongface]

Best game of the year still not worth 900K

Have to be around that mark though. Maybe $800 to $850k.

[JanLorMill]

Have to be around that mark though. Maybe $800 to $850k.
It’s 1 game. I’ll like to see it in a final.

[jeemak]

It’s 1 game. I’ll like to see it in a final.

Tim's barely played a final as a matured first ruck.

Contracts aren't designed on what's happened with any greater weight versus what might happen. That's the nature of the game. He'll get his million with us and we'll all get on with it.

And to be honest, if he gets it or not is kind of irrelevant to our salary cap. We have 35+ players, a couple hundred unitised by that number is relatively **** all. We need to stop worrying about it and allow our contract in front of Tim or the market determine what he's worth.

We hold the cards.

[Go_Dogs]

Yesterday’s price, is not today’s price.


He was good last night. Let’s see it continue. Still got no clue where this one lands.

[JanLorMill]

Tim's barely played a final as a matured first ruck.

Contracts aren't designed on what's happened with any greater weight versus what might happen. That's the nature of the game. He'll get his million with us and we'll all get on with it.

And to be honest, if he gets it or not is kind of irrelevant to our salary cap. We have 35+ players, a couple hundred unitised by that number is relatively **** all. We need to stop worrying about it and allow our contract in front of Tim or the market determine what he's worth.

We hold the cards.
What does Matured first ruck mean? He never will be getting less matured. He has had 5/6 goes at finals and performed poorly in a few of them. 1 good game last night doesn?t mean now he knows how to play finals.

[jeemak]

What does Matured first ruck mean? He never will be getting less matured. He has had 5/6 goes at finals and performed poorly in a few of them. 1 good game last night doesn?t mean now he knows how to play finals.

I did a breakdown of his finals earlier in this thread, it outlined 2022 as Tim being our genuine first ruck choice and what I would consider close to fully matured (having just turned 25 years old). In the final of that year he got worked over by Darcy and Lobb with little assistance (from Cordy and Sam Darcy). It wasn't a great day for him as he wasn't able to offset opposition hit out dominance with his own imprint on the game elsewhere.

His finals prior to that were either in mixed roles in lieu of not having Josh Bruce in the side or against more experienced/ mature rucks as a 23 year old (which to me was on us, not him - noting that he's physically had to come from a long way back).

If you are wanting Tim to be a dominant hit out ruck and think that's what should drive whatever value his contract should be, then that's OK. I can't imagine that's what is driving his value one way or another in the minds of our list managers or the market more generally.

Last night it all came together for him and if his next few weeks are good, and we play finals and he performs well, then I can guarantee you the market will be very interested again and his market value with surge.

[GVGjr]

A few weeks back there were a few here okay with the notion that if English was to walk we would just slide Lobb into the ruck.
I just wonder that with Lobb's good form down back if it doesn't strengthen Tim's negotiation position with the club? To me it's not as easy now as it might have been 2 or 3 weeks back to let him potentially go.

[jeemak]

A few weeks back there were a few here okay with the notion that if English was to walk we would just slide Lobb into the ruck.
I just wonder that with Lobb's good form down back if it doesn't strengthen Tim's negotiation position with the club? To me it's not as easy now as it might have been 2 or 3 weeks back to let him potentially go.

The only leverage Tim has is if he continues to play well and other parties show strong interest. Good form may entice us to improve our offer, though I doubt we will unless a genuine alternative in the market presents itself.

Lobb will never be a first ruck, and I don't think relying on him as one in Tim's absence was ever going to be realistic if Tim decided to leave.

[Bulldog Joe]

A few weeks back there were a few here okay with the notion that if English was to walk we would just slide Lobb into the ruck.
I just wonder that with Lobb's good form down back if it doesn't strengthen Tim's negotiation position with the club? To me it's not as easy now as it might have been 2 or 3 weeks back to let him potentially go.

I don't believe the form of Lobby in defence has any bearing on the value for Tim.
Tim can show his value by producing quality against the best.
The game against Grundy gives him an opportunity.

[JanLorMill]

I did a breakdown of his finals earlier in this thread, it outlined 2022 as Tim being our genuine first ruck choice and what I would consider close to fully matured (having just turned 25 years old). In the final of that year he got worked over by Darcy and Lobb with little assistance (from Cordy and Sam Darcy). It wasn't a great day for him as he wasn't able to offset opposition hit out dominance with his own imprint on the game elsewhere.

His finals prior to that were either in mixed roles in lieu of not having Josh Bruce in the side or against more experienced/ mature rucks as a 23 year old (which to me was on us, not him - noting that he's physically had to come from a long way back).

If you are wanting Tim to be a dominant hit out ruck and think that's what should drive whatever value his contract should be, then that's OK. I can't imagine that's what is driving his value one way or another in the minds of our list managers or the market more generally.

Last night it all came together for him and if his next few weeks are good, and we play finals and he performs well, then I can guarantee you the market will be very interested again and his market value with surge.
That’s long excuse but you have forgotten Jackson was younger when dominated English second half of the 21 gf. Sean Darcy was the same age too
Who mentioned dominating hit outs? I want him to impose himself like all good rucks do, not be pushed out the way and at least half the contests.
He beat Blicavs on Saturday apart from being old now has never really been a top ruck but I admit it was a good performance. That’s 1 game.

[JanLorMill]

The only leverage Tim has is if he continues to play well and other parties show strong interest. Good form may entice us to improve our offer, though I doubt we will unless a genuine alternative in the market presents itself.

Lobb will never be a first ruck, and I don't think relying on him as one in Tim's absence was ever going to be realistic if Tim decided to leave.
On Saturday Bevo said that Lobb will play where appropriate, Defence forward ruck or vfl. I think Lobb said something similar.
We played a majority of 5 years without a good first ruck yet you believe Lobb can’t do it? Darcy is coming fast anyway. Also Lobb ain’t leaving with 2 years left on his contract unless it’s very favourable to us.

[GVGjr]

The only leverage Tim has is if he continues to play well and other parties show strong interest. Good form may entice us to improve our offer, though I doubt we will unless a genuine alternative in the market presents itself.

Lobb will never be a first ruck, and I don't think relying on him as one in Tim's absence was ever going to be realistic if Tim decided to leave.

I agree that Lobb shouldn't have been talked about as a genuine first ruck for any length of time but now that he has found some form as a defender I just feel keeping English in the ruck and minimizing the chance of moving Lobb into other roles as we might have considered solves some problems for us. English has some flaws but he fits into a style that the coaches are comfortable with so the odds of him staying have improved but I now don't think we should be considering Lobb as his potential replacement.
I get that it all depends on what other clubs might show some interest in him but Lobb should not be in the debate of who might replace him.

[bornadog]

I agree that Lobb shouldn't have been talked about as a genuine first ruck for any length of time but now that he has found some form as a defender I just feel keeping English in the ruck and minimizing the chance of moving Lobb into other roles as we might have considered solves some problems for us. English has some flaws but he fits into a style that the coaches are comfortable with so the odds of him staying have improved but I now don't think we should be considering Lobb as his potential replacement.
I get that it all depends on what other clubs might show some interest in him but Lobb should not be in the debate of who might replace him.

Agree, and at the same time, Darcy is still a couple of years away from being a first ruck.

[Hotdog60]

Darcy is coming on leaps and bounds and I would say beats English as a ruck forward although Sam is more a forward ruck.
Tim has improved his game a lot over the last couple of weeks and I now if that becomes the norm I really want Tim to stay.
Lobb and to a lesser stent Kamis only become a break glass scenario.

[GVGjr]

Agree, and at the same time, Darcy is still a couple of years away from being a first ruck.

Darcy is just tall at the moment and at best he halves contests when he's in the ruck. While he's proven to be developing quickly a 2 year expectation of him being a ruckman is probably right. Based on what I've seen so far I'd still prefer him to be forward ruck combo player.

[Ozza]

My view on English from the cats game is that he just delivered what you would expect against a team without a recognised ruckman.

Tim hasn't taken too many scalps this year. At this point in his career you would hope he would be halving or winning some duals against the best ruckman, and dominating the less experienced rucks.

[Grantysghost]

I'm a little surprised people are noticing Tim folding back this week. He's been doing that pretty regularly this season.

I've isolated him at games and watched his work rate, he's a very good player. I don't get the angst.

I understand people want more bash and crash; that's pissing into the wind as it's not his style.

[Ozza]

I'm a little surprised people are noticing Tim folding back this week. He's been doing that pretty regularly this season.

I've isolated him at games and watched his work rate, he's a very good player. I don't get the angst.

I understand people want more bash and crash; that's pissing into the wind as it's not his style.

I should clarify that my commentary was based on having high expectations for him. Agree he is a very good player. But if the conversation is about whether we are willing to pay a 7 figure salary for him, then it is only right to also expect a lot from him performance wise.

Personally, I'm not paying a million for a ruckman. That doesn't mean I'd want him to leave, but there has to be a limit for everyone. (except Bont).

[bornadog]

I should clarify that my commentary was based on having high expectations for him. Agree he is a very good player. But if the conversation is about whether we are willing to pay a 7 figure salary for him, then it is only right to also expect a lot from him performance wise.

Personally, I'm not paying a million for a ruckman. That doesn't mean I'd want him to leave, but there has to be a limit for everyone. (except Bont).

What would you pay for him.

[merantau]

If English competes like that we are a chance to win any game. Apart from a couple of bad errors he was instrumental to our win. So good to see.

[Happy Days]

I think he’s a lightning rod for criticism and is actually going okay, albeit much worse than last year. He’s still a Swiss Army knife of a player that can be a match winner, it’s just never going to be in the way that Luke Jackson was a match winner one time in 2021.

I’ve still got him as must keep and would choose him over Baz if it came down to it.

[JanLorMill]

If I was Melbourne I?d make an offer. Another ruck forward is exactly what they need.

[GVGjr]

Tim's more than an okay ruckman. I get the sentiment about not overpaying for a ruckman bit I'm okay with whatever Power deems as the right offer. Around a million seems about right and hopefully we can get him for a bit less with the concussion risk as a factor.
We seem to prefer using him more as a 4th tall midfielder and that seems to work out pretty well.

[GVGjr]

If I was Melbourne I?d make an offer. Another ruck forward is exactly what they need.

When they lost Jackson then Lobb would have been the ideal fit for them. I don't like their chances of prying either Tim or Rory from us now.

[bornadog]

Tim's more than an okay ruckman. I get the sentiment about not overpaying for a ruckman bit I'm okay with whatever Power deems as the right offer. Around a million seems about right and hopefully we can get him for a bit less with the concussion risk as a factor.
We seem to prefer using him more as a 4th tall midfielder and that seems to work out pretty well.

The biggest critics of Tim are Bulldogs supporters worrying too much about his salary, rather than whether he is the right ruckman for us.

[GVGjr]

The biggest critics of Tim are Bulldogs supporters worrying too much about his salary, rather than whether he is the right ruckman for us.

Well it's a combination of both for many as well. As a ruckman he is fine, not great but certainly not bad. He has some unique talents that seem to work pretty well in our set-up. It's his last big contract so it needs to be a good one and I think we all get that.

With the salary cap a big factor in running a club, it can't just be as simple as if Tim wants 1.3M a season then give it too him because much like government spending and waste, the bill eventually becomes due and it could stop the club from doing what they need to later on.

[bornadog]

Well it's a combination of both for many as well. As a ruckman he is fine, not great but certainly not bad. He has some unique talents that seem to work pretty well in our set-up. It's his last big contract so it needs to be a good one and I think we all get that.

With the salary cap a big factor in running a club, it can't just be as simple as if Tim wants 1.3M a season then give it too him because much like government spending and waste, the bill eventually becomes due and it could stop the club from doing what they need to later on.

I doubt he would be getting $1.3m.

I have all the confidence in the world, Power will negotiate the right price, and that is why I don't worry.

[Ozza]

What would you pay for him.

Impossible question given we don't see what everyone is on. However, we know enough to be confident that if he has a very high salary it puts more pressure on other negotiations. With the exception of Melbourne, all of the premiers going back over the last decade or more, have gotten the cup without a high priced ruckman. West Coast won theirs without NicNat. Every other team have had blue collar types (for lack of a better description).

[GVGjr]

I doubt he would be getting $1.3m.

I have all the confidence in the world, Power will negotiate the right price, and that is why I don't worry.

Well you nominated 1.2M in the votes so it's around the mark and perhaps on the high side.. I'm also confident that Power won't sell the farm.

[Go_Dogs]

The challenge is when he puts it all together he’s a unicorn.

He’s still inconsistent though.

He’s also got an injury risk consideration given his concussions.

I think $1-1.1 is probably ok over a 5 year term given expected cap increases, but he needs to play at his best consistently to reflect that sort of term and financial commitment.

Based on current form, probably that $900-1m is reasonable.

[bulldogtragic]

Morris on Tim:

Tim English (Western Bulldogs)

“Tim English is the other one.

“Rivals believe this deal at West Coast is six years and not as lucrative financially as it once was.

“The Dogs have five on the table. That's where it's at and I don't think the Dogs are going to shift too much given Luke Beverage's views on ruckmen.

“He can leave if he wants and I think that looks more likely now than staying.”

[hujsh]

5 years is a lot.

I'd don't quite square these two pieces of information



“Rivals believe this deal at West Coast is six years and not as lucrative financially as it once was.

“The Dogs have five on the table. That's where it's at and I don't think the Dogs are going to shift too much given Luke Beverage's views on ruckmen.

“He can leave... looks more likely now than staying.”

WCE deal is reduced, only a year longer but now it's more likely Tim leaves when our deals sound relatively close? Is the extra year that much of a deal breaker?

[Happy Days]

Great so he’s leaving now again?

I swear he just waits for me to confirm I’m back in to make me look like an idiot.

[jeemak]

5 years is a lot.

I'd don't quite square these two pieces of information



WCE deal is reduced, only a year longer but now it's more likely Tim leaves when our deals sound relatively close? Is the extra year that much of a deal breaker?

Because an extra ~$1M over the course of five versus six years?

[hujsh]

Because an extra ~$1M over the course of five versus six years?

Would be interesting to know the payout totals irrespective of years. To relocate, spend half the year traveling interstate and be at a rebuilding club there's a lot of downsides to the move. But if that extra year means an extra mil that you get regardless of injury related retirement then it could add up.

[bulldogtragic]

Would be interesting to know the payout totals irrespective of years. To relocate, spend half the year traveling interstate and be at a rebuilding club there's a lot of downsides to the move. But if that extra year means an extra mil that you get regardless of injury related retirement then it could add up.

Hypothetically:

Dogs: 5 x 950,000 = $4.75M
WCE: 6 x 1M = $6.00M

$1.25M = relocation, work travel, rebuilding club

[jeemak]

You could easily envisage relocation costs being written into the contract.

The disadvantages of travel are somewhat offset by playing in front of a packed house with a parochial crowd as a genuine home ground advantage.

Tenure is important for him, add it all together and I think he moves, and I probably would as well if I was him.

[bulldogtragic]

You could easily envisage relocation costs being written into the contract.

The disadvantages of travel are somewhat offset by playing in front of a packed house with a parochial crowd as a genuine home ground advantage.

Tenure is important for him, add it all together and I think he moves, and I probably would as well if I was him.

To be fair it could be win-win.

Say we get Barrass to trade request. For roughly the same offered salary.

We threaten to trade on Tim, but an agreement is reached. We let Tim walk for first round compo. We trade that or the first from Baz (lesser one) and Garcia for Barrass.

Tim: tenure and salary bump
Geelong: Smith & F2 - First & F1
WCE: Tim, Garcia & First - Barrass
Dogs: Barrass, F1, First - Tim, Smith, Garcia, F2

Dogs: Three firsts in the next two years (West & Cooney the year after). We either try to trade or recruit good mids to supplement outstanding KPF & KPD. Try to find a cheap mature ruck (ie Ladhams).

Could be a really interesting thing to watch if both clubs have similarly large offers on a player from the other club.

[jazzadogs]

Hypothetically:

Dogs: 5 x 950,000 = $4.75M
WCE: 6 x 1M = $6.00M

$1.25M = relocation, work travel, rebuilding club

So we would get tier 1 compo... At what point would we match it? If we finish 8th and get pick 11? If we make a prelim and get pick 15?

I feel like we could conceivably match it and ask for a better pick/s, although if Barrass is happening that's a complication.

[jeemak]

I know you've already loosened your belt if not fully dropped your pantaloonies in preparation BT! :)

[bulldogtragic]

So we would get tier 1 compo... At what point would we match it? If we finish 8th and get pick 11? If we make a prelim and get pick 15?

I feel like we could conceivably match it and ask for a better pick/s, although if Barrass is happening that's a complication.

For sure about the pick number. Moreso it ms about if Barrass wanted to us then we just take the compo if the agreement was the worst first rounder we had. I think it’s fair game to leverage the FA as opposed to what Dons/Saints tried to more directly engineer last year. If we can generate some trade currency while acquiring a first rounder I’d be pretty happy. I guess we see if the Barrass stuff is real or not..

[Go_Dogs]

You could easily envisage relocation costs being written into the contract.

The disadvantages of travel are somewhat offset by playing in front of a packed house with a parochial crowd as a genuine home ground advantage.

Tenure is important for him, add it all together and I think he moves, and I probably would as well if I was him.

Move back to Perth like they all do at one point or another!

[Testekill]

I think that Darcy is going to overtake English as a ruck in two years, that's the big worry but if English is happy to be the forward-ruck then there wouldn't be anyone better in the league than him at the role.

[westbulldog]

If English goes to the Eagles he won't likely taste finals for 4-5 years at which time he will be 31/32. Also we would want Barass ++ for an English trade.

[bornadog]

Move back to Perth like they all do at one point or another!

You do know English is not from Perth

[Angak]

So we would get tier 1 compo... At what point would we match it? If we finish 8th and get pick 11? If we make a prelim and get pick 15?

I feel like we could conceivably match it and ask for a better pick/s, although if Barrass is happening that's a complication.

Is free agency compensation linked to where we finish on the ladder?

[Grantysghost]

Is free agency compensation linked to where we finish on the ladder?
Kind of.

The AFL has a formula, no one really knows what it is but how good the deal the player is getting seems to be a determining factor in how good the compensation is.

Where it's linked to your position on the ladder sometimes, is that a compo pick may come after your normal pick in the draft.

For eg North got pick 2 last year as part of their ladder position, then pick 3 for the McKay compensation.

[Sedat]

The AFL has a formula
KFC are more transparent with their recipe for 11 secret herbs and spices than the AFEL are with their formula

[Axe Man]

Kind of.

The AFL has a formula, no one really knows what it is but how good the deal the player is getting seems to be a determining factor in how good the compensation is.

Where it's linked to your position on the ladder sometimes, is that a compo pick may come after your normal pick in the draft.

For eg North got pick 2 last year as part of their ladder position, then pick 3 for the McKay compensation.

Given English would almost certainly attract band 1 compo the pick will be after after our natural first round pick (that we don't have).

[jazzadogs]

Given English would almost certainly attract band 1 compo the pick will be after after our natural first round pick (that we don't have).

This is an important point... Even though we traded away the pick, if we get band 1 compensation then we will still get the pick after the one we traded away.

[JanLorMill]

I don’t see the point in matching an opposing bid that’s higher than ours. He will stay with us.

[Topdog]

The @WestCoastEagles are locked in a two-horse race for the signature of @westernbulldogs star Tim English.

After interest from multiple clubs, English has narrowed his choice down to staying at the Dogs, or a move home to play for West Coast, who have tabled a 6-yr deal.

While the Dogs remain in the box seat, the All-Australian ruckman has warmed to the idea of joining the rebuilding Eagles, with the WA lifestyle presenting strong appeal.

https://x.com/FootyRhino/status/1816062211120586757?t=gOIqGcwHajfZ-TzWwYjJcg&s=19


For me I think the longer this drags on the less likely it is that Tim will be with us next year

[bulldogtragic]

So at this point, there’s a good chance Tim is leaving. He may or may not. But the chances are rising.

So Sam Power wouldn’t be simply hoping he stays. Power would have to have a plan in place to provide the head coach a satisfactory first ruck next year. What do we think the plan might be?

From within? Lobb looks good in defence. Darcy is a pup with injury history. Smith probs didn’t have pubes when we won our last flag.

Trade one in? From which club? What type of ruck would we want? What player/pick would we part with? How much salary?

[chef]

So at this point, there’s a good chance Tim is leaving. He may or may not. But the chances are rising.

So Sam Power wouldn’t be simply hoping he stays. Power would have to have a plan in place to provide the head coach a satisfactory first ruck next year. What do we think the plan might be?

From within? Lobb looks good in defence. Darcy is a pup with injury history. Smith probs didn’t have pubes when we won our last flag.

Trade one in? From which club? What type of ruck would we want? What player/pick would we part with? How much salary?

Sad thing is the type of ruck Bevo wants imo is exactly what English is. There's not much out there in terms of replacement. Need to sign him up.

[bulldogtragic]

Sad thing is the type of ruck Bevo wants imo is exactly what English is. There's not much out there in terms of replacement. Need to sign him up.

That’s not the question though. If he goes, surely we have a plan. What is it I wonder?

[chef]

That’s not the question though. If he goes, surely we have a plan. What is it I wonder?

I think the plan is he accepts our terms in the end.

[bulldogtragic]

I think the plan is he accepts our terms in the end.

Cmon Chef, off the fence! :D

Clearly the club is professional enough to understand Tim could leave and would have a contingency in place. Unless we don’t have one and if Tim leaves we scramble in panic?

[chef]

Cmon Chef, off the fence! :D

Clearly the club is professional enough to understand Tim could leave and would have a contingency in place. Unless we don’t have one and if Tim leaves we scramble in panic?

I guess my side on the fence is convince English to stay.

We arent going to be able to replace him with another established number 1 ruck, not much around.

[hujsh]

Pittonet has been mentioned.

Any interest in Stanley? Looks like he was playing VFL on the weekend. On paper is kind of our sort of ruck even if he's not of the same quality as English. Has he declined or do they just prefer Blicaves now?

[JanLorMill]

Pittonet has been mentioned.

Any interest in Stanley? Looks like he was playing VFL on the weekend. On paper is kind of our sort of ruck even if he's not of the same quality as English. Has he declined or do they just prefer Blicaves now?
English is probably the only ruck Stanley could beat even though Geelong won a premiership with him 2 years ago!!!! I’d still do it as a back up option because I still see Lobb and Darcy sharing first ruck.

[jeemak]

Pretty ballsy move dishing off English in what is supposed to be his prime and picking up Stanley at 34 at seasons start.

If we were going to put a contingency in place then it should have been getting Grundy last year, as nobody else will really appeal to Beveridge outside of who we already have on the list (although that would have turned out to be completely impractical given Darcy's fitness taking an upturn, which I wasn't certain of happening when I advocated getting Grundy in the first place - not to mention JUH's contract extension being put at risk if spots forward were under pressure).

I like Lobb as a ruck, and if he's true to his word that all he wants to do is play seniors wherever that is, then I'm OK with him playing out two years with us as first ruck with a lot of support from Darcy and our other forwards. Not sure about how his body responds to that, so we'll still need to pick someone up and if it's Stanley for a year then so be it.

This is on the proviso that we land Barrass.

Out - English
In - Stanley (UFA). Lobb rucks and Stanley gets paid $500K a year to be a back up

[Happy Days]

Stanley blows. We should get Ned Reeves.

[jeemak]

Stanley blows. We should get Ned Reeves.

Play along mate.

[jazzadogs]

How about Visentini from Port? Third in line behind Soldo and Sweet, 21yo, from Melbourne. Stats look okay from his games earlier this year but probably a) not a Bevo ruck and b) not a starting 18 ruck.

If English does leave for West Coast then I would ask for Bailey Williams or Matt Flynn. They're both serviceable first ruck options.

Kieren Strachan another back up at Crows, but they will be hoping he pushes ROB out in the next few years so don't think he'd be GETTABLE.

[GVGjr]

Sad thing is the type of ruck Bevo wants imo is exactly what English is. There's not much out there in terms of replacement. Need to sign him up.

To me Bevo has evolved a bit beyond this, he will pick the best ruck we have in the side. Sure he might prefer a mobile almost tall midfielder ruck but he will adjust to who we have available. I want us to keep English but we just can't take the easy no care option of paying him above his real value is. I'd wish he would re sign now but I don't think there are a lot of suitors for him so I confident in Powers ability to get it done the right way.

[JanLorMill]

Pretty ballsy move dishing off English in what is supposed to be his prime and picking up Stanley at 34 at seasons start.

If we were going to put a contingency in place then it should have been getting Grundy last year, as nobody else will really appeal to Beveridge outside of who we already have on the list (although that would have turned out to be completely impractical given Darcy's fitness taking an upturn, which I wasn't certain of happening when I advocated getting Grundy in the first place - not to mention JUH's contract extension being put at risk if spots forward were under pressure).

I like Lobb as a ruck, and if he's true to his word that all he wants to do is play seniors wherever that is, then I'm OK with him playing out two years with us as first ruck with a lot of support from Darcy and our other forwards. Not sure about how his body responds to that, so we'll still need to pick someone up and if it's Stanley for a year then so be it.

This is on the proviso that we land Barrass.

Out - English
In - Stanley (UFA). Lobb rucks and Stanley gets paid $500K a year to be a back up
Why would pay Stanley 500K as a UFA?

[JanLorMill]

It’s a No for me to any young inexperienced ruck ie Visentini, Flynn, probably Reeves and Williams. We have 2 already and one is closer to being our best than most think.

[lemmon]

It’s a No for me to any young inexperienced ruck ie Visentini, Flynn, probably Reeves and Williams. We have 2 already and one is closer to being our best than most think.

Is Lobb as first ruck your preferred choice next year?

I'm firmly in the 'keep English' camp, I think any other scenario weakens our first 22 heading into next year, but if he does choose the Eagles, I wouldn't mind trying to grab Harry Barnett out of them. I liked his under-18 performances but haven't seen much of what he's done since.

[Grantysghost]

Stanley blows. We should get Ned Reeves.
He's mobile that's about all I can say about him positively. The guy is 33 so that's a line through him. Maybe 5 years ago on the cheap.

[jazzadogs]

It’s a No for me to any young inexperienced ruck ie Visentini, Flynn, probably Reeves and Williams. We have 2 already and one is closer to being our best than most think.

Flynn is 26 (only 37 games, definite injury risk) and Williams is 24 with 67 games behind him. If we're talking about Stanley, then we should be talking about them.

[jeemak]

Why would pay Stanley 500K as a UFA?

Because rucks are expensive.

[JanLorMill]

Because rucks are expensive.
Delisted ones aren’t

[soupman]

How about Visentini from Port? Third in line behind Soldo and Sweet, 21yo, from Melbourne. Stats look okay from his games earlier this year but probably a) not a Bevo ruck and b) not a starting 18 ruck.

If English does leave for West Coast then I would ask for Bailey Williams or Matt Flynn. They're both serviceable first ruck options.

Kieren Strachan another back up at Crows, but they will be hoping he pushes ROB out in the next few years so don't think he'd be GETTABLE.

I don't think this is true. They're both 28, Strachan is approx 6 weeks younger. I think playing him ahead of O'Brien in the last two years has been more to shown dissatisfaction with the Jordan Peterson boy than true hope that Strachan becomes something better.

Other options could be Conway from Geelong, would dilute our compo for Smith but if they aren't gonna play ball they rate him highly and even though he's not good yet he should be serviceable next year.

Reeves is fine as a hitout guy but I think his around the ground work would make Bevo shudder.

Nic Bryan, he's the mobile type but unsure he has an actual ability to impact games and not ready to be ruck number 1.

Bailey Williams is the most ready to go, Bevo ish and GETTABLE though should they recruit English, plus the obvious endless fun two Bailey Williams would provide.

[jazzadogs]

I don't think this is true. They're both 28, Strachan is approx 6 weeks younger. I think playing him ahead of O'Brien in the last two years has been more to shown dissatisfaction with the Jordan Peterson boy than true hope that Strachan becomes something better.

Other options could be Conway from Geelong, would dilute our compo for Smith but if they aren't gonna play ball they rate him highly and even though he's not good yet he should be serviceable next year.

Reeves is fine as a hitout guy but I think his around the ground work would make Bevo shudder.

Nic Bryan, he's the mobile type but unsure he has an actual ability to impact games and not ready to be ruck number 1.

Bailey Williams is the most ready to go, Bevo ish and GETTABLE though should they recruit English, plus the obvious endless fun two Bailey Williams would provide.

Thanks, I did no research on Strachan/ROB. I assumed ROB was 30+ and Strachan was mid 20s.

I'd be pretty comfortable with 2x Bailey Williams on our list, if English leaves.

[soupman]

Thanks, I did no research on Strachan/ROB. I assumed ROB was 30+ and Strachan was mid 20s.

ROB moves like he was made out of foreign body parts so definitely understand thinking he is old. I thought Strachan was the guy they expected to come through for a while but he looked every bit a SANFL ruck when I saw him play this year.

[Happy Days]

Strachan is TERRIBLE I’d be really annoyed if we picked him up to be our first ruck.

[1eyedog]

Strachan is TERRIBLE I’d be really annoyed if we picked him up to be our first ruck.

Agreed looks like a bits part AFL player and a solid SANFL ruckman.

[Bulldog Joe]

Credit to Tim.
He has been monstered by Grundy a few times in the past, but had a good game this week
Got on his bike and really made Brodie work hard to chase.

[Topdog]

He got monstered by Grundy

[jazzadogs]

He got monstered by Grundy

Interesting. My feeling during the game was that English competed really well and the ruck was almost a nil all draw which enabled our midfielders to dominate.

[Bulldog Joe]

He got monstered by Grundy

Definitely noy how I saw it at the game.
Thought Tim competed really well and used his wheels to make Grundy work often.

[hujsh]

Grundy had his moments in the ruck and overall won that battle (though some of that may have been against Darcy to be fair) but English had more impact around the ground/aerially. I think enough to call it close to a draw which I'm happy with against Grundy

[JanLorMill]

Credit to Tim.
He has been monstered by Grundy a few times in the past, but had a good game this week
Got on his bike and really made Brodie work hard to chase.
Both he and Darcy were pushed around a little by Grundy but to their credit worked him hard and ran forward to exploit him. Both missed gettable shots. English?s one was easier then he failed to compete from the kick out and it cost us a goal.

[jeemak]

Both he and Darcy were pushed around a little by Grundy but to their credit worked him hard and ran forward to exploit him. Both missed gettable shots. English?s one was easier then he failed to compete from the kick out and it cost us a goal.

That sequence was genuinely the most disappointing part of the game yesterday, including some of the baffling umpiring. Tim was way too casual with the set shot, and that seemed to get into his head as he got to the kick-out landing and was totally ragdolled.

[Mantis]

Strachan is TERRIBLE I?d be really annoyed if we picked him up to be our first ruck.

He is worse than terrible.

[bornadog]

Definitely noy how I saw it at the game.
Thought Tim competed really well and used his wheels to make Grundy work often.

Grundy was better in the ruck duels with 43 Hitouts, but only 7 HTA - got to do better than that. Tim wasn't that much better with 23 HO, and 4 HTA (only 3 different to Grundy.)

Around the ground, Tim was very good picking up 7 marks. Should have nailed the goal.

[Glove38]

Is there another Lloyd Meek out there and if so would Bevo play him, or does it need to be a Tim type ruck? We had Sweet and didn't play him. If Bevo will only play a Tim type ruck then we pay more than we would like in $$$ but not years.

[Sedat]

He is worse than terrible.
I reckon Brian Strauchan would almost be better.

If we can somehow go all the way this season, the entire Tim English discussion (and Bailey Smith for that matter) changes completely. We are a live chance in 2024 so I just want the club to do everything possible to focus on every remaining minute and contest that plays out for the rest of this season.

[jeemak]

What about Gordon Strachan?

[Sedat]

What about Gordon Strachan?
Very clever right sided midfielder - could easily become the 34th wingman on our list

[jeemak]

Very clever right sided midfielder - could easily become the 34th wingman on our list

A bit more mongrel in him than big Timmy (and most rucks) as well, albeit vertically challenged.

[JanLorMill]

Is there another Lloyd Meek out there and if so would Bevo play him, or does it need to be a Tim type ruck? We had Sweet and didn't play him. If Bevo will only play a Tim type ruck then we pay more than we would like in $$$ but not years.
Yes his name is Sam Darcy. If English leaves why are looking for another one to fit into an already top heavy side? Another ruck should be only be there for insurance, I’ll even take Tom Campbell back.

[JanLorMill]

What about Gordon Strachan?
Richards the only ginger we need.

[Pedro Sanchez]

When you see how well we've played the past 3 weeks, which is want we all wanted and kind of expected from the start of the season to be fair, why the hell wouldn't you re-sign?

English has the chance to form the most potent ruck combo in our club's history in partnership with Darcy. And to what, cash that all in to head to the Eagles who will be in a world of pain for at least the next 2 maybe 3 seasons - also have no coach and the situation will be compounded when Gov and Yeo retire in the next 18 months. Unless its just a monster financial offer, just cant see Tim leaving for them.

[bulldogfan]

And his girlfriend is happy in Melbourne like why would he want to leave

[lemmon]

I know the numbers floating around can't really be trusted, but most of them are saying that Tim's re-signed for under 1-million, as most voted for. I think that's a great result from Power and co.

Tim's flawed, but he's the kind of ruck Bevo trusts and his best across a season can be as good as any ruck in the league.

[hujsh]

I know the numbers floating around can't really be trusted, but most of them are saying that Tim's re-signed for under 1-million, as most voted for. I think that's a great result from Power and co.

Tim's flawed, but he's the kind of ruck Bevo trusts and his best across a season can be as good as any ruck in the league.

Yeah have to agree, I think another aspect is with Tim locked away for 5 years we can put to bed any speculation that he's dictating where he plays now. If he's the number 1 ruck that's our call and if Darcy transitions in that's our call too.

Also a big congrats to the team for signing all of Naughton, Marra and English. Smith seems to have always been leaving but the 3 most important and the 3 players that seem even partially invested in the club all stuck around so good on them for managing that and also extending a few contracts before next season

[GVGjr]

I know the numbers floating around can't really be trusted, but most of them are saying that Tim's re-signed for under 1-million, as most voted for. I think that's a great result from Power and co.

Tim's flawed, but he's the kind of ruck Bevo trusts and his best across a season can be as good as any ruck in the league.

It was a fair evaluation in terms of dollars and years and because we've been able to strike a reasonable deal it now gives us some flexibility moving forward. The player should be happy and the club can now look at adding some support around Tim moving forward.
Power goes okay in what is a challenging and competitive environment.

[G-Mo77]

So did he gamble on himself and lose? IMO he's been disappointing in 2024 and value has dropped significantly, if it is under $1m per, less than what he was asking apparently, did he take the lesser deal? Did other deals get taken away? We'll never know the exacts but makes you wonder.

[bornadog]

The modern ruck is not about how many hitouts you get then do nothing for the rest of the game. The modern ruck is like a Grundy, Gawn, English and wannabies like TDK. Yeah, he may not be a contested beast at stoppages but you must remember we are the clearance and contested Kings. Gone are the days of the lumbering ruckman.

There use to be a role called the ruck/Rover who was really not tall enough to be a ruckman or small enough to be a rover - bit like what Bont is today. Tim is a Ruck/rover but more slanted to ruck - a great asset to have around the ground. At his best he has been one of the best rucks for Hit out to Advantage. His form has not been good this year, but he has also had some good games.

This year so far he is ranked (for rucks) 5th for Disposals, 1st for Marks, 4th for contested marks, 4th for goals, 7th for HTA, and top ten for most other metrics. Mostly down on last year.

Good luck to Tim he should be coming to his peak now.

[Sedat]

I know the numbers floating around can't really be trusted, but most of them are saying that Tim's re-signed for under 1-million, as most voted for. I think that's a great result from Power and co.

Tim's flawed, but he's the kind of ruck Bevo trusts and his best across a season can be as good as any ruck in the league.
Sensible amount, and one that even his biggest detractors can't begrudge. I hope we can harness his incredible athletic gifts even more, and I also hope he can continue to build his one-on-one competitiveness (which still has some room for improvement).

If he can reduce the gap between his best and worst (he needs to IMO), it will be an excellent next 5 years for both player and club.

[DOG GOD]

Would be very interesting to know if the offer dropped a lot since start of year. Certainly not worth that million he was looking for on his 2024 efforts.

[kruder]

Seriously to have English and Darcy as a ruck/forward combination we are blessed there is no doubt about it. Well done to Power for getting a fair deal done and we have seen Tim improve after he made his mind up which was obvious from afar( give him an out on the weekend).

I will still be in the comments when he gives up front position but all things being equal really happy the outcome.

[meenies]

Anyone notice Timmy’s left hand in his extension interview?

[bornadog]

Anyone notice Timmy’s left hand in his extension interview?

Looks like he had an ankle and wrist issue from weekend

[whythelongface]

Pleased to here this is finalised. Reckon it has been impacting his footy. Hope now that it is settled he kicks on in the last stages of the year.

[Vred]

Would be very interesting to know if the offer dropped a lot since start of year. Certainly not worth that million he was looking for on his 2024 efforts.

I don't believe so. Fairly certain we put forward 5x850 pretty early in the piece, he/his manager wanted 6/950+ but we didn't budge and doesn't sound like anyone else was willing to pay it.

[Axe Man]

I don't believe so. Fairly certain we put forward 5x850 pretty early in the piece, he/his manager wanted 6/950+ but we didn't budge and doesn't sound like anyone else was willing to pay it.

Without any inside information this is what I would have thought was the most likely scenario. I think his form meant West Coast didn't go over the top with their offer and we accordingly didn't need to increase ours. Well done to Power for staying the course.

[Axe Man]

Tim and his partner must have re-signed on almost the same day:


the Vixens have swiftly finalised their contracted 10 for next season with fresh deals for goal keeper Rudi Ellis, young midcourter Zara Walters and rookie goaler Lily Graham.

[bornadog]

Tim and his partner must have re-signed on almost the same day:

I wonder if she waited for him to finalise?

[Axe Man]

IF ...
after an All-Australian season in 2023 Tim English was poised for a million dollar-plus a year deal whether he stayed at the Dogs or left for WA

THEN ...
his form this year dramatically changed that scenario. The WA offer may have even been taken off the table, and the Dogs one didn’t go near seven figures.

[D Mitchell]

English not playing on Sunday, Darcy named as first, only, ruck. Should be interesting, perhaps a glimpse into the future.

[jeemak]

IF ...
after an All-Australian season in 2023 Tim English was poised for a million dollar-plus a year deal whether he stayed at the Dogs or left for WA

THEN ...
his form this year dramatically changed that scenario. The WA offer may have even been taken off the table, and the Dogs one didn?t go near seven figures.

I'd say we offered him $850K upfront and had $500K to $1M plus/ or an additional contract year to flex with depending on what the market came back with.

Given his inconsistent form the offers from elsewhere in terms of base probably weren't enough for him to move, especially if we matched the delta with incentives.

I know it's always been about the grandfather deal from WCE, but I reckon there may have been a few offers from Melbourne based clubs to get him moving as well.

Great result all round.

[Stevo]

I wonder why so many of our supporters thought 1.2 to 1.3m a year was acceptable for a long term deal term? Power has read the play so well and now has a bit of extra scope to sign players from other clubs or spreading it out with existing and emerging talent already at the club. We are lucky to have him managing this for us.

[hujsh]

I wonder why so many of our supporters thought 1.2 to 1.3m a year was acceptable for a long term deal term? Power has read the play so well and now has a bit of extra scope to sign players from other clubs or spreading it out with existing and emerging talent already at the club. We are lucky to have him managing this for us.

You'd have to go back to the start of the thread in Feb. For me the idea was to get the absolute highest price people would accept taking into account rival offers, the salary cap increase and the lack of alternatives. For me the max was 1.2 mil as an AA ruckman assuming he had crazy high offers from other clubs but it wouldn't have been something I'd have been 'happy' about if that makes sense.

I think we've done very well to get him at 8-900 but I also very much doubt we would have retained him at that price if he had a better year on field.

[Axe Man]

The 'major factor' behind big Dog's decision to stay (https://www.afl.com.au/news/1206785/the-major-factor-behind-big-western-bulldog-tim-englishs-decision-to-stay)

After the Bulldogs secured their spot in the finals, Tim English spoke to AFL.com.au's Josh Gabelich about his decision to re-sign with the club

TIM ENGLISH was drafted by the Western Bulldogs 55 days after the club famously ended a 62-premiership drought in 2016. Now 27, the reigning All-Australian made the biggest decision of his career this month, with a clear goal in mind: make sure the wait isn't as long for the club's third flag.

By signing a five-year extension to remain at the Whitten Oval until 2029, the West Australian turned his back on the opportunity to return home and play in front of family and friends for West Coast. Instead, he chose to remain loyal to the club that read his name out at pick No.19 inside the Hordern Pavilion nearly eight years ago.

After missing out on playing finals last September, English and the Western Bulldogs are returning to the month that matters most – and doing so without the almost daily debate around the ruckman's future – after beating Greater Western Sydney in Ballarat on Sunday.

English thought long and hard about the decision. Eight years is a long time to be away from home. But he couldn't leave. The Bulldogs almost went all the way at Optus Stadium in 2021. Yet they didn't achieve the ultimate prize.

With his partner, Rudi Ellis, inking a two-year contract extension with Super Netball franchise Melbourne Vixens in July, English is settled in Melbourne, staying the course and ready to go one better this finals series.

"It was a tough decision. There are so many factors that go into a decision like that. For me, it was about wanting to win a premiership with this football club; that was a major factor and something I'm desperate to do in my career," English told AFL.com.au after the win over the Giants.

"I have a really strong connection with a lot of people at this football club, whether its staff or players – that came into my thinking. From an outside of football perspective, which is almost equally as important, I'm really happy here, happy in Melbourne the city and happy with my partner here. Rudi recently re-signed. From that standpoint it gives me good balance with my football and life. It was the best decision for me.

"There were a few challenges at times, but most of the noise was hearsay. I didn't put anything out there. It is always a background, but everyone at the football club was really supportive in giving me time to make the right decision for me and I appreciate that a lot."

After starting the season 3-5, the Bulldogs clinched another September berth on Sunday. The Dogs won four finals during the fairytale finish to 2016. They won three on the road in 2021 before falling just short. Now they will face Hawthorn in next Friday night's elimination final at the MCG.

Only four 2016 premiership players featured on Sunday – Marcus Bontempelli, Tom Liberatore, Jack Macrae and Caleb Daniel, with Jason Johannisen missing due to injury – while seven others played in the 2021 loss to Melbourne. English believes the Dogs have the capacity to make another deep run this September.

"You'd be kidding yourself if you made finals and didn't think you were a chance. For us, it is a really simple approach, I don't think we've got many players here from 2016 who completed the ultimate goal. From 2021, there are a few of us," English said.

"At the end of the day, it is all about executing our game style. We've shown that when we do that we've been able to compete with the top teams, especially in this post-bye period. We know that our brand holds up."

Win and in. That was the simple equation for the Bulldogs in Ballarat, although Beveridge had started the week not expecting English to be out there. Even the South Fremantle product didn't expect to face the Giants after injuring ligaments in his ankle against Adelaide in round 22.

"I didn't think I was going to [play]," he said. "Our medicos are really good; they gave me the best chance to get up and play and I didn't really have an issue with it from Thursday onwards. I pulled up really well from the session on Wednesday, then had another session on Friday and from there I was able to play. Very grateful for the doctors and physios at the club. They gave me the best recovery, best rehab possible and we tried our best."

The press conference room inside Mars Stadium is different to almost every other AFL venue across the country. It is essentially an extension of the home changerooms, which is why music blared through the walls and players celebrated next door while Beveridge addressed the media on Sunday.

With a spot in September secured, the man who eclipsed Ted Whitten's longstanding record for most games as Bulldogs coach admitted the club didn't expect English to prove his fitness in time to face the Giants. But, as he cheekily pointed out, he wasn't going to pick up the phone and let the media know things had changed.

"I don't tell lies; I've been more honest with selection in more recent times than ever. There was a time when even if there was uncertainty, I just wouldn't say anything. I have to be careful with you guys and girls because you can be accused of playing games. But rather than go through those stresses I've been more up front," Beveridge said during an emotional press conference in Ballarat.

"Absolutely hand on heart, we thought he wouldn't play coming off the ankle. It was a bit more serious than just the rolled ankle. One of the ligaments that he injured meant he could be out for two or three [weeks] and he hadn't trained. As the week went on, he looked more likely than less likely, but I wasn't going to ring you. It was a bit of surprise in the end. I thought Tim was really valuable."

The Dogs are playing in September for the seventh time since Beveridge arrived at the Whitten Oval at the end of the 2014 season. They head there with English back on the park and locked in for the long-term.

[bulldogtragic]

Well…..

[JanLorMill]

Well…..
It’s not like we didn’t see this output coming

[bulldogtragic]

It’s not like we didn’t see this output coming

No surprises.

[Sedat]

Timid is now the official property of Meek

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've never been so disappointed about a re-signing.

[bulldogtragic]

Timid is now the official property of Meek

I’d suggest playing him at CHB but Im not sure he’s got enough mongrel to do what Lobb’s been doing. We are locked into him long term but I just don’t see a bright future if he’s our first ruck. It’s clear that last year was the exception and not the rule.

[Vred]

Should of traded him and bought in a ruck who can ruck... No idea what we're gonna do with him for another 5 years.

[Sedat]

His finals record is now a massive albatross around his neck. Yet again in a final, his opponent was in the best 3 on the ground and had a massive impact on the end result - its real rinse and repeat stuff.

I don't know where we go with Tim. At some point the player needs to be challenged, otherwise the behaviour and output will not change.

[macca]

Tim is not a physical Ruckman and gets out position by stronger opponents.

So many times Meek had the front position. This is Meek, a bloke who could not get a game at Freo.

[SonofScray]

I’m confident we’ve erred in putting our eggs in the English basket.

[Grantysghost]

We were so desperate we had Naughton in the ruck.
Tim is a real concern. In the important games I'm not sure he has the drive to win.
Darcy on the other hand, has it in spades.

[jeemak]

He needs a full preseason with a lot of body contact and more strength work.

[azabob]

He needs a full preseason with a lot of body contact and more strength work.

Mate, then what the heck has he been doing since 2017?

[Sedat]

We were so desperate we had Naughton in the ruck.
Tim is a real concern. In the important games I'm not sure he has the drive to win.
Darcy on the other hand, has it in spades.
I have absolutely zero concerns about Darcy and his dog-hungry competitiveness. He will take over the 1st ruck mantle in the near future, and hopefully English will ease into that 2nd ruck/forward role we all know he is far better suited to.

As no 1 ruck, we are going nowhere with Tim and it has to change. It was painful but oh so predictable to witness what took place tonight.

[jeemak]

Mate, then what the heck has he been doing since 2017?

His preseason was terrible this year, it can't be that bad again.

He's come from a long way back physically, and while he will never get there to the extent we need I'd much rather that not to be an excuse for him so we can hold him accountable more thoroughly.

[merantau]

When you're a ruckman and you like to play bruise free football you have a problem.

Here's the plan for 2025. Sam Darcy to the weights room over the summer. He is No. 1 ruck.
Naughton to CHB. English to play forward and 2nd ruck.
Buku to play forward or not at all.

[DOG GOD]

I like it but will never happen unfortunately

[anfo27]

I just feel as long as Tim is number 1 ruck we will never win anything. Has no presence in there. He might get nice stats but there is no stat for presence & if there was he measure in at zero or close enough to it. Not all on Tim though, as a whole we weren't up for it tonight.
My concern is Bevo talks about the person & not the player & feel like in that scenario Bevo just isn't ruthless enough.

[Hotdog60]

Meek 46 HO's to Tim's 21 you can't win centre clearance if the fleet footed opposition is getting silver service. It was interesting to see Aaron in the ruck instead of Lobb I suppose Lobb was one of the better Backs and Aaron was getting cold up forward.

[GVGjr]

Tim falling short last night on the big stage would be part of the reason why he didn't quite get the contract he was after.
Sam Darcy's continued development is critical for us so that we can at least be more competitive.

[soupman]

Meek 46 HO's to Tim's 21 you can't win centre clearance if the fleet footed opposition is getting silver service. It was interesting to see Aaron in the ruck instead of Lobb I suppose Lobb was one of the better Backs and Aaron was getting cold up forward.

Still thought it was super odd. Naughton hasn't played ruck for us in ages, we had three ruck types in the lineup ahead of him, and I have no idea what English and Darcy were doing when he was in there.

They certainly weren't contesting the marks for our dump kicks out of defence, that was McNeils job.

[Grantysghost]

Still thought it was super odd. Naughton hasn't played ruck for us in ages, we had three ruck types in the lineup ahead of him, and I have no idea what English and Darcy were doing when he was in there.

They certainly weren't contesting the marks for our dump kicks out of defence, that was McNeils job.
Naughton in the ruck was awful. Way to send a message to the rest of the team that we've run out of ideas.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Considering Marra was have a mare-a id have run him up the ground.

[chef]

He's just too nice, doesn't have any mongrel in him.

[Sedat]

Tim falling short last night on the big stage would be part of the reason why he didn't quite get the contract he was after.
Sam Darcy's continued development is critical for us so that we can at least be more competitive.
He got a 5 year contract off a season that has been ordinary at best. I'm not crying for Tim.

The most exciting moment last night was Darcy's F50 stoppage goal - another year or two in the gym and he will be a beast around the ground.

What to do with Tim is a vexing question altogether - we have 5 years to work it out because the answer is not as no 1 ruck and never has been (that was obvious to some of us as early as 2019)

[SonofScray]

Naughton in the ruck was awful. Way to send a message to the rest of the team that we've run out of ideas.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Considering Marra was have a mare-a id have run him up the ground.

JUH had a shocker. From the first contest, I noticed him wincing and then after one contest, grabbing his shoulder. He needed to show a lot of resilience in a final than that, you have to play hurt sometimes, but it looks like he was seriously hampered from the outset to me.

[azabob]

JUH had a shocker. From the first contest, I noticed him wincing and then after one contest, grabbing his shoulder. He needed to show a lot of resilience in a final than that, you have to play hurt sometimes, but it looks like he was seriously hampered from the outset to me.

Marra started on the bench. Wonder if that had something to do with his attitude?

[GVGjr]

Marra started on the bench. Wonder if that had something to do with his attitude?

I mean it absolutely shouldn't be an issue. This has certainly been a year where players have been asked to take one for the team.

[soupman]

Marra started on the bench. Wonder if that had something to do with his attitude?

I can't believe this is even being raised as an excuse for a pretty terrible performance.

[azabob]

I can't believe this is even being raised as an excuse for a pretty terrible performance.

soupman, i am not making an excuse for Marra. I am asking did he crack the shits at starting in the bench and threw the toys out of the cot.

[Grantysghost]

Marra copping a lot of stick, his first big final he looked over awed.

I'm directing my annoyance at the leaders.
Bont was insipid.

[JanLorMill]

Marra copping a lot of stick, his first big final he looked over awed.

I'm directing my annoyance at the leaders.
Bont was insipid.
It was JUH’s second final

[soupman]

soupman, i am not making an excuse for Marra. I am asking did he crack the shits at starting in the bench and threw the toys out of the cot.

Sorry not directed at you, but have seen it raised a couple of times including by commentators as a possible mitigating circumstance with his poor performance.

Just wanted to be clear that if that is the case, it's an indictment on him not on whoever put him there, which seems to be your pov too.

[Grantysghost]

It was JUH’s second final
Yes he played in the Freo one.

First big MCG final was my vibe.

He was horrible but hard to be good with that few inside fifties.

[jeemak]

Mate, then what the heck has he been doing since 2017?


His preseason was terrible this year, it can't be that bad again.

He's come from a long way back physically, and while he will never get there to the extent we need I'd much rather that not to be an excuse for him so we can hold him accountable more thoroughly.

I feel like I didn't articulate things well last night, so here's my thinking with Tim.

Now that we have secured him at what was probably the lower end of the market we don't have to mollycoddle him anymore. We now have the option of demanding he toughens up or plays twos. If he doesn't like it we can move him on for somebody who does and even pay some of his smaller salary if we need to.

Given he wasn't a certainty to sign we should understand the ruck market really well. With the bird in the hand we now hold the cards when it comes to managing our ruck position.

[bulldogtragic]

I feel like I didn't articulate things well last night, so here's my thinking with Tim.

Now that we have secured him at what was probably the lower end of the market we don't have to mollycoddle him anymore. We now have the option of demanding he toughens up or plays twos. If he doesn't like it we can move him on for somebody who does and even pay some of his smaller salary if we need to.

Given he wasn't a certainty to sign we should understand the ruck market really well. With the bird in the hand we now hold the cards when it comes to managing our ruck position.

Tim has no real competition on the list. Darcy could be anything as a forward. So why not recruit/trade a genuine first ruck and make him fight for his spot. He’s played this season like a guy who knows he’s going to get picked no matter how well he plays it stinks it up. If he’s going to be the only mature first ruck on the list then we can expect this again. Maybe he needs some compo for his spot to find some consistency. And if he doesn’t, then we at least have another option.

[Danjul]

Yes he played in the Freo one.

First big MCG final was my vibe.

He was horrible but hard to be good with that few inside fifties.

The entries into the 50 metre arc were among the worst I have ever seen. The ball trajectories were totally random and impossible to anticipate. Wherever the forwards led the ball went somewhere else (often to Hawks).

An interesting pair of observations: Firstly, The Dogs always kicked higher than the Hawks. Second, the Dogs kicked further. A bonus, they also were slower to kick. Add them together and you get ? that?s why Hawthorn was able to intercept so often.

So how do you help JUH get into the game? You put him where the game is. I believe his attributes make him a better winger than goal square forward with these rubbish entries. That is where Darcy should be.

[bornadog]

Sorry not directed at you, but have seen it raised a couple of times including by commentators as a possible mitigating circumstance with his poor performance.

Just wanted to be clear that if that is the case, it's an indictment on him not on whoever put him there, which seems to be your pov too.

Pretty sure JUH started on the bench v GWS, or another game.? To me no big deal, didn't effect the game at all.

[EasternWest]

Pretty sure JUH started on the bench v GWS, or another game.? To me no big deal, didn't effect the game at all.

You're the biggest English fanboi on this site. Interesting that on this thread, this is the comment you choose to reply to.

[bornadog]

You're the biggest English fanboi on this site. Interesting that on this thread, this is the comment you choose to reply to.

No point is there

[bulldogtragic]

No point is there

No defence of his game/season, are you saying?

[bornadog]

No defence of his game/season, are you saying?

I am actually saying, I can't be bothered.

[bulldogtragic]

I am actually saying, I can't be bothered.

Like Tim on Friday night! :D

Joking BAD.

[Sedat]

No point is there
Agreed. There is no point defending what cannot be defended.

[bornadog]

Agreed. There is no point defending what cannot be defended.

There were 21 other players on the ground. It was not just Tim that didn't play well, but for some reason he is singled out.

[EasternWest]

There were 21 other players on the ground. It was not just Tim that didn't play well, but for some reason he is singled out.

There it is.

With 6 million 328 posts on this forum and a breadth of activity across all threads you haven't seen any criticism of any other player after that debacle?

I think you just can't bring yourself to admit that a) you were wrong in your strident defence of Tim and b) Tim's actually just not that good. It's not that you can't be bothered, because your amount of posts say you can always be bothered. It's that you can't admit it.

P.S. I love you still, but please just accept it.

[Sedat]

There were 21 other players on the ground. It was not just Tim that didn't play well, but for some reason he is singled out.
Everyone who was poor on the night has been under intense scrutiny and rightly so. Bont was rubbish, so was Libba, Weightman, Marra and probably a dozen others mentioned here. I guess Bont and Libba have quite a few credits in the bank, so as stinky as their performances were (and they were beyond stinky) they have excelled in finals previously. Weightman has kicked a bag of 5 in a final before (he needs to lift as his last 3 have been putrid), Marra is young but batting 0 for 2 in finals so he sure as hell cannot perform like that again. Naughton has underperformed in finals relative to what his talent and ability demands. Williams was good on Friday but has been poor in finals previously. Even Bailey Dale has a gap between his finals output and his amazing H&A form, and Dale is a rolled gold jet.

Just maybe some of us are heartily sick and tired of seeing our no 1 ruckman have absolutely zero impact in a final yet again, and showing just how easily he waives the white flag against his direct opponent once again when it really matters. It's not personal - he just consistently sucks as no 1 ruck in finals/big games throughout his entire career, and speaking for myself I'm tired of seeing it/rewarding the repeated lack of performance.

[bornadog]

There it is.

With 6 million 328 posts on this forum and a breadth of activity across all threads you haven't seen any criticism of any other player after that debacle?

I think you just can't bring yourself to admit that a) you were wrong in your strident defence of Tim and b) Tim's actually just not that good. It's not that you can't be bothered, because your amount of posts say you can always be bothered. It's that you can't admit it.

P.S. I love you still, but please just accept it.

Goodbye

[EasternWest]

Goodbye

Well, Leaving the forum is a bit much but you gotta do what you gotta do.