Tim English - What Price do you pay?

[hujsh]

We all know Tim is looking for a good deal. General speculation and salary cap increases make it very likely he's on at least 1 mil a year. What is your upper limit to what you'd offer if you were Sam Power? Would you go all the way up to 1.4? Would you not even offer 1mil?

Make your choice and state your case

[hujsh]

I'm surprised there's a majority under 1 million so far.

Personally I'd be willing to go as high as 1.2 million a year. If someone is offering 1.4 million and the contract is 4 years or less. That's not ideal, not necessarily what I think his worth is to the club's on field performance, but my absolute upper limit.

[Axe Man]

I think everyone needs to realise $1 million in 2023 is not the same as $1 million in 2025 and beyond.


The average waged jumped by 11 per cent and under the new pay deal brokered last season, wages will leap another 5.1 per cent in 2024 and 12.6 per cent in 2025.

The total player payments will jump from $15,022,778 in 2023 to $15,788,222 this year, before rising to $17.76m in 2025, $18.29m in 2026 and $18.44m in 2027.

Players split an additional $1.267 million per club in additional services (marketing) across the life of the new CBA which runs until 2027.

With annual increases taken in to consideration, there could be as many as 50 players who will be paid $1 million in 2025.

[bornadog]

Personally, I don't give a rats arse what a player is paid. Power has to balance the list and make sure the good players are paid what they should be paid according to the market. It is all a matter of supply and demand and supply of top level ruckman are far and few in between which means clubs will go after him due to short supply. Tim is a wanted player, by many clubs and we need to be paying him what the market dictates - he may not get top dollar when a club is willing to go over the top, but it needs to be reasonable as well so that the final figure is close.

We offered unders for Ward and lost him, we paid overs for Boyd and he won us a premiership - I don't want to lose Tim.

[Mofra]

I think everyone needs to realise $1 million in 2023 is not the same as $1 million in 2025 and beyond.
50 players means most clubs will have 2 or 3 players on $1m+
Bont & Naughts are probably our two right now (Naughts not far off) and Marra will get paid. Can we carry 4 blokes on or near $1m?

Timmy's our 7 B&F finisher and not part of our leadership group. I'm not sure the dollars would match the output but if we have no replacement lined up for next year he may have a strong negotiating hand.

[Before I Die]

I don?t get the ?only 7th in the b&f? argument. Naughton finished 9th and Jammara finished 10th. If it?s not relevant to them, why would it be a deal breaker for Tim? He is the all Australian ruckman and still young enough to get even better.
Slobbos article is just his typical rubbish. If English leaves, Slobbos next article would be ?Dogs badly undervalue champion ruckman?.
I?d certainly pay over the million for Tim, but I wouldn?t sell the farm and Sam Power gets to make the decision on what we can afford.
For what it?s worth, I think Baz has gone, so that probably makes Sam?s job a bit easier.

[FrediKanoute]

I think you have to go ?1.2m, but on a 3 year deal. If he is still the main man and output hasn't dropped off etc great, but the money has to be there for him.

[Can Bar]

Can only hope this group put success above money, or success will bring the money. Its feeling like we will be raided before we can achieve the full potential.

[GVGjr]

I think you have to go ?1.2m, but on a 3 year deal. If he is still the main man and output hasn't dropped off etc great, but the money has to be there for him.

It's a hard one to judge and challenging for a lot of us to grasp. Clearly some people don't rate Tim's input as highly as others do and some who are probably considering the Collingwood approach to ruckman and saying you shouldn't tie up a lot of money in the position.
And no doubt some challenges for Tim with concussion symptoms would be consideration.

I'm not a fan of some of the long term deals that are being struck but the market is the market and clubs have a choice if they want to match what other clubs are offering. I'm sure we will see a club or two get burned by injuries to a couple of players on mega deals and the market will react to that.

I'd prefer we are a bit conservative with our offers to Tim but he does deserve to be well compensated.
If West Coast put in a massive offer for his services we don't have to match it.
Wouldn't it be fascinating to sit in both discussions between Power and McDougall and then Power and the Footy department explaining where things are in the negotiations?

[chef]

Pay whatever it takes imo.

We've just spent 5-6 years developing him into the leagues best ruckman so im happy to give him his chocolates. Cant lose him now, plus we all know how picky Bevo is with rucks. Finally have one he likes.

[jazzadogs]

I think when you are putting that level of money into someone you are not only considering market value and on field worth, but what they add to the club off field.

Is Tim a leader within the group? The new leadership group would suggest he isn't in the top handful.
Does he drive standards? He is certainly a very talented player and puts work in to himself - but does he put the time in to the team?
Does he contribute to the brand of the club? I've not seen Tim as someone who craves the limelight, and if our options are putting money towards Tim or Marra/Baz, there is a clear difference in their level of self promotion (which becomes club promotion).
Is he team oriented? Not according to the reports that he would only play #1 ruck.

I think these are some of the reasons people are comfortable with an AA ruck leaving.

[Mavericks]

Would love to keep him but I am concerned about a long term contract at $1,000,000 with his concussion issues. Most clubs can win a flag with a workhorse ruckman. JUH and Smith are 1 and 2 on my list to retain. If we can challenge for the flag it will go along way in retaining all. This is why success is so important for keeping a talented list together. Another year like 2023 and we may lose a few.

[jeemak]

I went with $1.1M assuming the market will get to $1.3M, going much higher to follow the market starts to worry me. I'm more concerned about tenure than his per year wage though, and honestly can't figure out what I'd offer up on that front.

Before I Die makes a really good point regarding the B&F finish argument. Additionally, questioning why he's not in the leadership group or not leading promotions misses the mark for mine as well. Those things aren't for everyone, but I'd be surprised if the latter didn't pick up if he signed a huge deal.

[Pedro Sanchez]

Whats the word on the street here? Surely he stays... Key cog in the team about to really flex and leave a mark on the comp. Time to shine and repay the time and investment the club has put into him.

[mjp]

Pay the price.

Tim's one of us. We drafted him and he has grown with us...

I hate turning footy into transactions. Tim is a Bulldog - make it so.

[JanLorMill]

If he is worth 1million or more in 2025, he need to improve again in 2024. Based on 2023, his actual influence on game, the need for dominant ruck to win a premiership, and the Grundy/collingwood example he isn?t worth it atm.

[JanLorMill]

Paying Jamarra or Naughton big money is different, you can name a few games they have won for us already, I don’t see it with English.

[Grantysghost]

Pay the price.

Tim's one of us. We drafted him and he has grown with us...

I hate turning footy into transactions. Tim is a Bulldog - make it so.

Preach!

[my plums]

Surely both Tim and the Club can meet in the middle of the pay scale. His manger would want heaps and the club would want a lot less so somewhere in the middle seems fair for the time we’ve put into him and what he is starting to deliver for us.

[GVGjr]

Surely both Tim and the Club can meet in the middle of the pay scale. His manger would want heaps and the club would want a lot less so somewhere in the middle seems fair for the time we’ve put into him and what he is starting to deliver for us.

It probably won't be a drawn out negotiation in terms of discussions.
We should put forward our 'close to' best offer. McDougall will want more because West Coast will offer more and they'll settle on something in between.

[jDogs]

Pay the price.

Tim's one of us. We drafted him and he has grown with us...

I hate turning footy into transactions. Tim is a Bulldog - make it so.

On the other hand, does paying him what could be a huge market price then see another Bulldog walked out the door?
I also dislike how footy is turning transactional, I hate the influence that American sports is having, particularly how all the footy players idolise it. It's becoming much more about the individual.

[Before I Die]

If he is worth 1million or more in 2025, he need to improve again in 2024. Based on 2023, his actual influence on game, the need for dominant ruck to win a premiership, and the Grundy/collingwood example he isn?t worth it atm.

The Collingwood 2023 premiership team could also be used to argue you don't need a dominant CHF or FF either.

A lot of WOOFers were lamenting in 2021 that that Melbourne only won the Premiership because of their ruck dominance.

It is pretty much universally accepted that without Tom Boyd we don't win the 2016 Premiership.

WOOF members voted Tim as our third best player last year behind Bont and Libba. If he stays fit he is likely to be the dominant ruckman of the next 6 years.

We should absolutely offer him his market value. If West Coke make an offer that we can't match without blowing up our salary cap, then that's a different story. But if Tim wants to stay and we lose him because our offer is inadequate, it will be looked back upon as an atrocious decision.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

You asked a simple question and the simple answer is you pay the price of what is needed if you deem the player rightly.

[josie]

The Collingwood 2023 premiership team could also be used to argue you don't need a dominant CHF or FF either.

A lot of WOOFers were lamenting in 2021 that that Melbourne only won the Premiership because of their ruck dominance.

It is pretty much universally accepted that without Tom Boyd we don't win the 2016 Premiership.

WOOF members voted Tim as our third best player last year behind Bont and Libba. If he stays fit he is likely to be the dominant ruckman of the next 6 years.

We should absolutely offer him his market value. If West Coke make an offer that we can't match without blowing up our salary cap, then that's a different story. But if Tim wants to stay and we lose him because our offer is inadequate, it will be looked back upon as an atrocious decision.

Agree with your post with, for me, one proviso:
I hope Tim takes some account of the loyalty and time it took by our Club and particularly Bevo, for him to become AA. I think a lot of clubs would have given up on him when he was being mauled by Grundy 4 or so years ago. I know I was concerned he didn?t have the grunt it would take. Understand we have to pay a big chunk of money to keep him but I don?t want it to tie our hands too much. If Wet Toast or another team make a Buddy or TBoyd type offer I?m not sure I would want us to match it, especially if it?s for a long period (given Tim?s concussion history).

I really hope he stays and also hope he is more open to longer stints in forward or backline. He is very versatile and possibly unique in the AFL. If we win 🏆 this year it will provide some solace if he decides to leave for a humongous offer we choose not to match, and in return gain a really high draft pick (1 to 4) plus optimistically a little extra on top of that.

[jeemak]

Agree with your post with, for me, one proviso:
I hope Tim takes some account of the loyalty and time it took by our Club and particularly Bevo, for him to become AA. I think a lot of clubs would have given up on him when he was being mauled by Grundy 4 or so years ago. I know I was concerned he didn?t have the grunt it would take. Understand we have to pay a big chunk of money to keep him but I don?t want it to tie our hands too much. If Wet Toast or another team make a Buddy or TBoyd type offer I?m not sure I would want us to match it, especially if it?s for a long period (given Tim?s concussion history).

I really hope he stays and also hope he is more open to longer stints in forward or backline. He is very versatile and possibly unique in the AFL. If we win �� this year it will provide some solace if he decides to leave for a humongous offer we choose not to match, and in return gain a really high draft pick (1 to 4) plus optimistically a little extra on top of that.

Not sure other teams would have given up on him. If anything they'd have likely pumped as many resources into him as they could find to get his craft up to speed, given his potential. Possibly they wouldn't have exposed him in the same way we did, and that's not on Tim, that's on us. I reckon as supporters we struggle to delineate how he was exposed, how he performed, and what he now owes us.

The bolded bit is key for mine, and I've been critical of Tim's evidential want to be the main man in the ruck above all else (but from his perspective, he's the incumbent AA ruckman so he might say the stance was justified). Hopefully he's mature enough to now know he rucks best when he's fresh/ not too fatigued, and brings willingness to mix it up across the ground. We need all the help we can get in the air defensively, and you can never have enough scoring avenues.

[bornadog]

The Collingwood 2023 premiership team could also be used to argue you don't need a dominant CHF or FF either.

A lot of WOOFers were lamenting in 2021 that that Melbourne only won the Premiership because of their ruck dominance.

It is pretty much universally accepted that without Tom Boyd we don't win the 2016 Premiership.

WOOF members voted Tim as our third best player last year behind Bont and Libba. If he stays fit he is likely to be the dominant ruckman of the next 6 years.

We should absolutely offer him his market value. If West Coke make an offer that we can't match without blowing up our salary cap, then that's a different story. But if Tim wants to stay and we lose him because our offer is inadequate, it will be looked back upon as an atrocious decision.

Great post, how I feel as well.

[Go_Dogs]

I voted for $1.1m as I consider that to be at the top end of current salaries and a reasonable landing point.

No idea how a deal like that gets structured - maybe it’s something like $4.5m over four years (I’d prefer that type of duration, four to five years) with that salary inclusive of some incentives based on games played, AA etc. structured in payment terms over those 4 years however suits the overall list management strategy best.

I kinda agree. Pay what we need to, however if he gets a $1.5m offer for 7 years somewhere else it might be the type of deal that’s really hard for us to match. No idea how likely that is…

[GVGjr]

I voted for $1.1m as I consider that to be at the top end of current salaries and a reasonable landing point.

No idea how a deal like that gets structured - maybe it’s something like $4.5m over four years (I’d prefer that type of duration, four to five years) with that salary inclusive of some incentives based on games played, AA etc. structured in payment terms over those 4 years however suits the overall list management strategy best.

I kinda agree. Pay what we need to, however if he gets a $1.5m offer for 7 years somewhere else it might be the type of deal that’s really hard for us to match. No idea how likely that is…

The only real problems with the pay whatever it takes approach at the level of money being mentioned is if the player gets a debilitating injury or their form substantially drops off and it can happen. You are then left with finding a replacement and a hole if the salary cap for a period of time. There is a risk with any long term and high value deal but I wouldn't be critical of the club if it put in their best offer and we still lost Tim. As good as he is, we need to have a point where the money offered doesn't become a problem for us.

I'm confident the deal will get done, it's just going to take a while.

[hujsh]

Not sure other teams would have given up on him. If anything they'd have likely pumped as many resources into him as they could find to get his craft up to speed, given his potential. Possibly they wouldn't have exposed him in the same way we did, and that's not on Tim, that's on us. I reckon as supporters we struggle to delineate how he was exposed, how he performed, and what he now owes us.

The bolded bit is key for mine, and I've been critical of Tim's evidential want to be the main man in the ruck above all else (but from his perspective, he's the incumbent AA ruckman so he might say the stance was justified). Hopefully he's mature enough to now know he rucks best when he's fresh/ not too fatigued, and brings willingness to mix it up across the ground. We need all the help we can get in the air defensively, and you can never have enough scoring avenues.

Yeah I guess it is a bit of a two way street, we pumped time into Tim to get him ready but we probably overexposed him early more because we lost Roughead and Boyd and chose to let Campbell go. Ideally he'd have played more games as the 2nd ruck and maybe transitioned to 50/50 with someone more experienced until it was his time.

[kickit2Koly]

$1.1 is fair given he is a all Aus. As others have said, I am more worried about length of deal than money given his concussion issues.

I wish we did it like the NFL where you guarantee a portion of the money rather than the length of the deal. Somethings like $5.5mil over 5 years with $3.5mil guaranteed.

[josie]

$1.1 is fair given he is a all Aus. As others have said, I am more worried about length of deal than money given his concussion issues.

I wish we did it like the NFL where you guarantee a portion of the money rather than the length of the deal. Somethings like $5.5mil over 5 years with $3.5mil guaranteed.

Agree with this. Surprised if we don?t head the NFL way given the risk of debilitating injuries.

[AshMac]

I think you have to go ?1.2m, but on a 3 year deal. If he is still the main man and output hasn't dropped off etc great, but the money has to be there for him.

Yeh I agree - I?d be happy w a slightly higher salary for a shorter period. Yes there is a risk that he is worth more at the end of the contract but historically it seems high value long term contracts don?t pay off.

I personally don?t rate a ruckman as a role that needs a star - I?d prefer to have a second string - good tap ruckman - to have a marquee top 5 (in role) player at both ends of the ground

[Axe Man]

If we win �� this year it will provide some solace if he decides to leave for a humongous offer we choose not to match, and in return gain a really high draft pick (1 to 4) plus optimistically a little extra on top of that.

If we win the flag this year we will likely end up with a pick in the early 20s under that scenario. The only way to get a pick(s) better than one linked to your ladder position is to match the bid and force a trade.

[josie]

If we win the flag this year we will likely end up with a pick in the early 20s under that scenario. The only was to get a pick(s) better than one linked to your ladder position is to match the bid and force a trade.
Thx Axe-let?s hope we are in that conundrum or Tim wants to contribute to back to back flags.

[JanLorMill]

The Collingwood 2023 premiership team could also be used to argue you don't need a dominant CHF or FF either.

A lot of WOOFers were lamenting in 2021 that that Melbourne only won the Premiership because of their ruck dominance.

It is pretty much universally accepted that without Tom Boyd we don't win the 2016 Premiership.

WOOF members voted Tim as our third best player last year behind Bont and Libba. If he stays fit he is likely to be the dominant ruckman of the next 6 years.

We should absolutely offer him his market value. If West Coke make an offer that we can't match without blowing up our salary cap, then that's a different story. But if Tim wants to stay and we lose him because our offer is inadequate, it will be looked back upon as an atrocious decision.

Collingwood won the premiership cos Maynard KOed Brayshaw and got away with it.
Melbourne won the premiership because their 2nd ruck got on top, hardly played a good game since.
Boyd was also our 2nd ruck.

[Twodogs]

Surely both Tim and the Club can meet in the middle of the pay scale. His manger would want heaps and the club would want a lot less so
somewhere in the middle seems fair for the time we?ve put into him and what he is starting to deliver for us.


He's not Jesus. If he were we'd really struggle to fit him under the salary cap.

[Dazza]

Bit less concerned after seeing Lobb/Darcy today. I'd offer him whatevers fair and not try to match anything significantly higher

[MrMahatma]

Bit less concerned after seeing Lobb/Darcy today. I'd offer him whatevers fair and not try to match anything significantly higher

Which of those 2 are gonna put together an All Australian season in the next couple of years?

[Dazza]

Which of those 2 are gonna put together an All Australian season in the next couple of years?


I don't think an A.A ruckman is a requirement for success.

English is a weird ruckman. Doesn't do the meat and potatoes part so well. He can be towelled up by bad players even in an A.A year.

[jeemak]

Let's try and get Darcy through the next few weeks without rupturing a spleen or coming down with some obscure injury before we ask him to carry the ruck with Lobb.

Yesterday was promising from each of those players but neither stood out to me as top three in the competition for hitouts to advantage like Tim was last year, let alone All Australian for the myriad other attributes he brought to the game.

[JanLorMill]

Which of those 2 are gonna put together an All Australian season in the next couple of years?
If all we wanted was AA then great. I barrack for the team not the individual players.

[JanLorMill]

Let's try and get Darcy through the next few weeks without rupturing a spleen or coming down with some obscure injury before we ask him to carry the ruck with Lobb.

Yesterday was promising from each of those players but neither stood out to me as top three in the competition for hitouts to advantage like Tim was last year, let alone All Australian for the myriad other attributes he brought to the game.
ATM English is the one that was most recently injured. Last year was probably his first he got through without an injury. Touch wood.
Again couldn’t care less about individual stats or awards. Caleb Daniel can ruck if we win.

[jeemak]

ATM English is the one that was most recently injured. Last year was probably his first he got through without an injury. Touch wood.
Again couldn’t care less about individual stats or awards. Caleb Daniel can ruck if we win.

I'm not sure you can compare his recent run with Darcy's but if you want to that's fine.

[mjp]

He's not Jesus. If he were we'd really struggle to fit him under the salary cap.

Well, as Jock said in 'The Club':

"With the team we'll have next year Jesus Christ would be flat out making the reserves!"

[Mofra]

Well, as Jock said in 'The Club':

"With the team we'll have next year Jesus Christ would be flat out making the reserves!"
I hope Timmy's sister has legs...

[Prince Imperial]

With "The Club" references in this thread, it's time to recall this dialogue...


Jock : A marvelous high mark you took last Saturday. You just seemed to go up and up!

Geoff Hayward : Yeah, I felt like Achilles.

Jock : Yes...

[laughs]

Jock : ... Who's he?

Geoff Hayward : A Greek guy who could really jump.

Jock : Ah, yeah yeah. Well some of these new Australians, you know they could be real champions, if they forget about soccer and just learn to assimilate.

[Sedat]

Well, as Jock said in 'The Club':

"With the team we'll have next year Jesus Christ would be flat out making the reserves!"
I'd prefer to have Cam Donaldson, Mickey Dimmish and Andy Payne on our goal-to-goal line.

[Palace03]

I think $1-1.1 million is about right and I'd be reluctant to go above 5 years given the concussion history. Really dont want to loose him though and with some guys on could money not too far from the end space will open up over the duration of the contract. Naughton's long term deal also gives the club flexibility in terms of moving cap space around.

What ever the deal ends up being, it has to fall in behind whatever Bont is being paid.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

No ruckman is worth over the 1m, they are not mids or power forwards that win you games. If Timmy was to play a 50/50 Ruck forward role he would be invincible and this would generate him more $$$$$ As it is right now he doesn't put team first and play more time forward which impacts the team and our forwards.

He should be better than Grundy and Gawn, but i would rate him below them both as a ruckman that impacts the scorers and impacts a game right at this point. The issue is he could easily be far better than both in 12 months time so for me his contract fell 12 month to soon for Tim to generate those big bucks.

[GVGjr]

No ruckman is worth over the 1m, they are not mids or power forwards that win you games. If Timmy was to play a 50/50 Ruck forward role he would be invincible and this would generate him more $$$$$ As it is right now he doesn't put team first and play more time forward which impacts the team and our forwards.

He should be better than Grundy and Gawn, but i would rate him below them both as a ruckman that impacts the scorers and impacts a game right at this point. The issue is he could easily be far better than both in 12 months time so for me his contract fell 12 month to soon for Tim to generate those big bucks.

There are a few ruckman who are worth a million a year and Tim is certainly one of them. I would imagine the sticking point is exactly how high we are prepared to push that amount and the duration of the contract.

Just get a feeling that this will be a long drawn out negotiation.

[Testekill]

The price I would pay is probably 900k, anything over a million a year and I'd be happy to trade him or let him explore his options in free agency.

[Glove38]

The price I would pay is probably 900k, anything over a million a year and I'd be happy to trade him or let him explore his options in free agency.

Agree with this unless we limit the contract to 3 yrs. Happy to go a little above this if we aren't locking in the long term. I also want to see how Darcy goes this year and whether he can stay on the park and/or lock down a forward or defensive post.

[jazzadogs]

No ruckman is worth over the 1m, they are not mids or power forwards that win you games. If Timmy was to play a 50/50 Ruck forward role he would be invincible and this would generate him more $$$$$ As it is right now he doesn't put team first and play more time forward which impacts the team and our forwards.

He should be better than Grundy and Gawn, but i would rate him below them both as a ruckman that impacts the scorers and impacts a game right at this point. The issue is he could easily be far better than both in 12 months time so for me his contract fell 12 month to soon for Tim to generate those big bucks.

What salary do you think the demons should have been paying Max Gawn for the last five years?

[BOYDSKICKEDAGOAL!FAK!!]

Can only hope this group put success above money, or success will bring the money. Its feeling like we will be raided before we can achieve the full potential.

This is so true, the potential of what we have at the moment is ridiculous. Think about this team in 3 years time: English, Sanders, Baz, JUH, Naughton, Darcy, Croft, JOD, Buss, the list goes on...

[Mofra]

What salary do you think the demons should have been paying Max Gawn for the last five years?
Those 5 years would be under the old cap too.

[bulldogtragic]

Ralphy suggesting 6-7 year deal at $1M and could be close to signing by R10 or close to it.

[chef]

Ralphy suggesting 6-7 year deal at $1M and could be close to signing by R10 or close to it.

Perfect.

[Grantysghost]

Perfect.
Shut up and take my money

[hujsh]

Pretty happy if that's how it turns out.

[bulldogfan]

Where did he say that ? If so good news

[azabob]

Ralphy suggesting 6-7 year deal at $1M and could be close to signing by R10 or close to it.

What are your first thoughts BT?

Do you think if accurate one of Smith or JUH (shudder) is gone?

[jazzadogs]

6-7 years is a concern with his concussion history, but the money is definitely at a reasonable level.

It would be really interesting to see how we are planning to manage the list. Tying up $2mil per year in Naughton and English, possibly close to 3mill when you hopefully include JUH, is a big risk.

[bornadog]

Perfect.
Agree

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I just don't think he's worth $1m a season. Forget the inflated cap - to pay ONE player a million, I want a matchwinner and I don't see that with English.

[G-Mo77]

No way I'd be paying over 1m and giving him 6 - 7 years.

[chef]

Theres probably a dozen really good ruckman in the league and we have one, we just need to hold onto him. Im surprised by how underrated he is by our own.

[Mofra]

6-7 years is a concern with his concussion history, but the money is definitely at a reasonable level.

It would be really interesting to see how we are planning to manage the list. Tying up $2mil per year in Naughton and English, possibly close to 3mill when you hopefully include JUH, is a big risk.
Cap in 2022: $12.4m
Cap in 2023: $13.5m

Cap in 2025: $17.7m

I expect in a couple of years every team will have a few players on $1m+. It's hard to fathom the 40% + increase in TPP in just years.

[Grantysghost]

No way I'd be paying over 1m and giving him 6 - 7 years.

I hate the long contracts, the market has really forced that (thanks swans), however 900k or 1.1 mill i mean really with the increase in the cap it's not that massive a difference.
Tim is a superstar. Total match winner for mine.

[JanLorMill]

I hate the long contracts, the market has really forced that (thanks swans), however 900k or 1.1 mill i mean really with the increase in the cap it's not that massive a difference.
Tim is a superstar. Total match winner for mine.
Which games were those?

[bulldogtragic]

Where did he say that ? If so good news

That show after AFL360 (that?s a pretty bad HUN show).

[bulldogtragic]

What are your first thoughts BT?

Do you think if accurate one of Smith or JUH (shudder) is gone?

I think JUH is a lick to stay and Baz is a lock to go. If Macrae doesn’t get back into the side for a meaningful role and amount of games, I think he goes too.

[Jasper]

Cap in 2022: $12.4m
Cap in 2023: $13.5m

Cap in 2025: $17.7m

I expect in a couple of years every team will have a few players on $1m+. It's hard to fathom the 40% + increase in TPP in just years.

Things are about to change and as supporters we need to embrace that sides could have 5 players or more on a million plus.

[Go_Dogs]

Things are about to change and as supporters we need to embrace that sides could have 5 players or more on a million plus.

Agree with this.

The money is all relative to the cap which is increasing significantly and means that the best players who make AA, win Brownlow and finish consistently top 3 in B&F will be able to command these types of numbers on long deals competition wide. We either sign them up or someone else will.

Good to hear a degree of confidence we’ll get the deal with Tim done. Personally still think he’s got a lot of growth in his game and will only continue to improve. Hopefully he spends more time forward in 2024 (maybe 25%) which could see him finish the year with 30 goals to his name too.

[Grantysghost]

Which games were those?
Rd 4 v Tigers 23.

[Testekill]

I am significantly more concerned regarding the contract length over the money. English has built up a bit of a worrying concussion history, who's to say the next one won't be curtains on his career?

[Virgin-Dog]

I just don't think he's worth $1m a season. Forget the inflated cap - to pay ONE player a million, I want a matchwinner and I don't see that with English.
20 years ago, paying a single player $500k was almost unheard of outside of the absolute best of the best. These days, that?s the average wage.

You really can?t dismiss the inflated cap here - it?s going to be the norm going forward that an AA level player, in the top 5-10 at a club, is going to be on wages close to $1m/year. It?s the equivalent of $800k a couple years ago, which I?m sure most people would be happy paying

[Virgin-Dog]

I am significantly more concerned regarding the contract length over the money. English has built up a bit of a worrying concussion history, who's to say the next one won't be curtains on his career?
The important thing to keep an eye on is the ruling on Brayshaw?s contract. Melbourne are pushing for this to not come out of their salary cap, and this will set an important precedent.

We should have no concerns if the AFL ends up ruling that Melbourne are free of the cap burden

[The Bulldogs Bite]

20 years ago, paying a single player $500k was almost unheard of outside of the absolute best of the best. These days, that?s the average wage.

You really can?t dismiss the inflated cap here - it?s going to be the norm going forward that an AA level player, in the top 5-10 at a club, is going to be on wages close to $1m/year. It?s the equivalent of $800k a couple years ago, which I?m sure most people would be happy paying

But is he?

B&F voting suggests not.

English is a good player, capable of being very good, but he was fortunate that the ruck competition floundered (i.e. Gawn v Grundy hurt both of their output, Naitanui gone etc).

I think he can go to another level but just because you CAN pay $1m, doesn't mean you should. That's not even factoring in his concussion issues...

[bornadog]

but just because you CAN pay $1m, doesn't mean you should. .

The market determines the value, so if someone is willing to pay that amount, then that is what they are valued at

[Grantysghost]

I've never experienced the sentiment people have towards Tim prior from memory for a Dogs player of his ability.

My feel is most think he's just an "ok" player.

It's really odd to me. He's tall, athletic, has amazing skills..... I feel maybe someone like Joe Daniher cops the same for reasons unbeknownst to me.

Can people explain to me what is not convincing them about Tim? Even when he's the AA ruck there's a sentiment he "bradburied" it.

[bornadog]

I've never experienced the sentiment people have towards Tim prior from memory for a Dogs player of his ability.

My feel is most think he's just an "ok" player.

It's really odd to me. He's tall, athletic, has amazing skills..... I feel maybe someone like Joe Daniher cops the same for reasons unbeknownst to me.

Can people explain to me what is not convincing them about Tim? Even when he's the AA ruck there's a sentiment he "bradburied" it.

Tim has copped it from day 1. We know that most talls don't mature till mid 20s

[MrMahatma]

I've never experienced the sentiment people have towards Tim prior from memory for a Dogs player of his ability.

My feel is most think he's just an "ok" player.

It's really odd to me. He's tall, athletic, has amazing skills..... I feel maybe someone like Joe Daniher cops the same for reasons unbeknownst to me.

Can people explain to me what is not convincing them about Tim? Even when he's the AA ruck there's a sentiment he "bradburied" it.

I think a lot of fans are still burnt by how many times he got towelled up (including in important matches) on the way to becoming a good player.

But he's arrived as a really good player. Get around him!

[Grantysghost]

I think a lot of fans are still burnt by how many times he got towelled up (including in important matches) on the way to becoming a good player.

But he's arrived as a really good player. Get around him!

Primacy recency says we should be loving him!

Ok that maybe explains it - he really had a break out year last season so I'm really confident he's going to be amazing this year again.

[Virgin-Dog]

But is he?

B&F voting suggests not.

English is a good player, capable of being very good, but he was fortunate that the ruck competition floundered (i.e. Gawn v Grundy hurt both of their output, Naitanui gone etc).

I think he can go to another level but just because you CAN pay $1m, doesn't mean you should. That's not even factoring in his concussion issues...
He was 7th in the latest B&F voting, so it literally does suggest he is?

[JanLorMill]

Rd 4 v Tigers 23.
Brownlow votes that day were
T Liberatore 3 L Baker 2 M Bontempelli 1
Bontempelli got the most coaches award votes

[Grantysghost]

Brownlow votes that day were
T Liberatore 3 L Baker 2 M Bontempelli 1
Bontempelli got the most coaches award votes

Hard to get votes over those two !

You don't rate him?

Richmond v Western Bulldogs 9 Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
8 Tim English (WB)
4 Tom Liberatore (WB)
3 Caleb Daniel (WB)
2 Liam Baker (RICH)
2 Bailey Dale (WB)
2 Daniel Rioli (RICH)

Ok let's go with....

Rd 3 2022 v Swans.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He was 7th in the latest B&F voting, so it literally does suggest he is?

5-10 not top 5.

Would you pay players 5-10 $1m+ a season?

Good luck keeping the list together if we're that generous.

[JanLorMill]

Hard to get votes over those two !

You don't rate him?
Who said I don't rate him? I don't believe he is a match winner or superstar yet as you believe.

[Grantysghost]

Who said I don't rate him? I don't believe he is a match winner or superstar yet as you believe.

Nobody - it was a question.

That's fair enough. I strongly disagree ;)

[jazzadogs]

I think a lot of fans are still burnt by how many times he got towelled up (including in important matches) on the way to becoming a good player.

But he's arrived as a really good player. Get around him!

I think The Night That Must Not Be Named from 2021 plays a huge part in this.

[hujsh]

If Tim can be more consistent, not get beaten by the shit rucks occasionally, maybe kick a few extra goals and take a few more marks in defence while still racking up his 20 odd touches then he'll be a real force for us. Like he does this stuff sometimes but then in games like the Port one last year or even the Hawks game last week he can look real bog average and it really takes the shine off his otherwise very good games.

[Virgin-Dog]

5-10 not top 5.

Would you pay players 5-10 $1m+ a season?

Good luck keeping the list together if we're that generous.
I was always talking about top 5-10 (never said he was top 5) and you quoted me on that, then suggested he isn?t in that range as shown by B&F results, so I?m confused what point you?ve been trying to make.

Of course we wouldn?t want 10 players on that size contract, but you don?t typically need to. We can afford to pay Timmy $1mil when other top 10 players are on significantly less (Libba, Dale, Daniel would all be on $600k-ish, and I wouldn?t be surprised if Sanders instantly finds himself in the top 10 this year while on a draftee contract). When you?ve got guys in their prime years who are among the best in their position, they typically cost on the higher end of salaries.

Salary doesn?t always perfectly match the order of best to worst player, there?s a lot more nuance than that.

[Grantysghost]

I was always talking about top 5-10 (never said he was top 5) and you quoted me on that, then suggested he isn?t in that range as shown by B&F results, so I?m confused what point you?ve been trying to make.

Of course we wouldn?t want 10 players on that size contract, but you don?t typically need to. We can afford to pay Timmy $1mil when other top 10 players are on significantly less (Libba, Dale, Daniel would all be on $600k-ish, and I wouldn?t be surprised if Sanders instantly finds himself in the top 10 this year while on a draftee contract). When you?ve got guys in their prime years who are among the best in their position, they typically cost on the higher end of salaries.

Salary doesn?t always perfectly match the order of best to worst player, there?s a lot more nuance than that.

Plus rucks aren't just every other player. There's what 5 good ones in the entire world?

[jeemak]

I think The Night That Must Not Be Named from 2021 plays a huge part in this.

Libba was as culpable as anyone in that fiasco. Tim seems to cop all of the blame.

[jeemak]

If Tim can be more consistent, not get beaten by the shit rucks occasionally, maybe kick a few extra goals and take a few more marks in defence while still racking up his 20 odd touches then he'll be a real force for us. Like he does this stuff sometimes but then in games like the Port one last year or even the Hawks game last week he can look real bog average and it really takes the shine off his otherwise very good games.

Lycett can ruck, and he's the worst type of opposition for someone like English. I think too much is made of when Tim doesn't get it right, he's still developing.

And not too sure what you were wanting from him in his first real hit out after a heavily interrupted preseason, I actually thought he was good in patches.

It's interesting that we're all wanting to hang onto JUH and would probably pay anything over eight years to keep him, but his body of work versus Tim's is well less. I actually see them relatively aligned in their development years and path. Tim gets a few extra years because of his baseline and the fact rucks keep developing as they reach their later twenties.

[jazzadogs]

Libba was a culpable as anyone in that fiasco.

I agree, but English, Macrae and Williams seem to be the ones who cop the flak.

[Mofra]

5-10 not top 5.

Would you pay players 5-10 $1m+ a season?

Good luck keeping the list together if we're that generous.
Where did Naughton and Jamarra finish?

[Happy Days]

Libba was as culpable as anyone in that fiasco. Tim seems to cop all of the blame.

Didn’t we all shake hands and agree that it was Stef Martin’s fault?

[jeemak]

Didn’t we all shake hands and agree that it was Stef Martin’s fault?

I thought we all agreed it was the MCs fault because we didn't play Jordon Sweet!

[Grantysghost]

It was Libba, but for freed from desire.

[hujsh]

Lycett can ruck, and he's the worst type of opposition for someone like English. I think too much is made of when Tim doesn't get it right, he's still developing.

And not too sure what you were wanting from him in his first real hit out after a heavily interrupted preseason, I actually thought he was good in patches.

It's interesting that we're all wanting to hang onto JUH and would probably pay anything over eight years to keep him, but his body of work versus Tim's is well less. I actually see them relatively aligned in their development years and path. Tim gets a few extra years because of his baseline and the fact rucks keep developing as they reach their later twenties.

He wasn't terrible overall but had a pretty poor first half. Was well beaten by the Hawks rucks. Maybe his preparation has been worse than I'm giving credit for since he has still been running and hasn't missed any games per se (so it's easy to forget) but it seemed like regular old Tim to me.

I still also think it's a bit of a copout to say he's still developing. He'll be 27 this year in August. He's All Australian and has 5 years of AFL experience behind him (not years in the system, years playing in the 22 consistently). He's positioned for a million dollar a year deal over 6-7 years (meaning we're risking that his body holds together until he's 32-33). We can expect him, as of this year, to no longer be soundly beaten by someone like Lycett who was a good ruckman once but at that point was crawling to retirement. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have as fans.

This is it. This is the year it clicks.

[GVGjr]

Plus rucks aren't just every other player. There's what 5 good ones in the entire world?

It's a good point. I think the footy community is going to take a while to adjust to the fact that we will soon have multiple players at every club commanding 1M+ type salaries. In 12 months time it will be easier for most of us to accept.
There has also been a few examples like the Grundy one where a club like Collingwood made a deal and then backed away from it and were even prepared to pay part of the salary for him to leave. That appears to have devalued how many people view the rucks in the comp. What complicates things further in the eyes of many is the ongoing concussion challenges Tim's experienced so a big dollar contract scares some of us.

I rate English but I understand why so many people don't view ruckman, even with his skill set, that highly.
Brad Johnson was asked the question tonight though about which one of the Bulldog players he would want kicking for a set shot goal and he nominated Tim. With all of his other attributes I feel his best football might still be in front of him.
Power and the club will do what they can to keep him and I'm confident a fair deal will be struck.

[jeemak]

He wasn't terrible overall but had a pretty poor first half. Was well beaten by the Hawks rucks. Maybe his preparation has been worse than I'm giving credit for since he has still been running and hasn't missed any games per se (so it's easy to forget) but it seemed like regular old Tim to me.

I still also think it's a bit of a copout to say he's still developing. He'll be 27 this year in August. He's All Australian and has 5 years of AFL experience behind him (not years in the system, years playing in the 22 consistently). He's positioned for a million dollar a year deal over 6-7 years (meaning we're risking that his body holds together until he's 32-33). We can expect him, as of this year, to no longer be soundly beaten by someone like Lycett who was a good ruckman once but at that point was crawling to retirement. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have as fans.

This is it. This is the year it clicks.

Missing pre-Christmas training drills and sims, plus only getting a couple of weeks of it in before the practice matches should clearly show he was underdone

He's 26 for most of the season, it's pretty reasonable for a ruck to be still developing at his age and the fact he's made AA already should be something we're celebrating. For some reason it seems he's the only player on the list we expect perfection from.

I get that Lycett has retired, but he was a premiership ruckman who had body issues for a couple of years prior to doing so. At 31 he's a titch younger than Max Gawn. People act as if he was a has been but the reality is that he was still exceptionally crafty as a ruck and very strong - and if fit that's what he brought to the games he played. Tim will rarely level (let alone dominate) a player like him in hit outs, but even in the game Tim had his arse handed to him in hit outs he still bettered Lycett for around the ground influence.

A reasonable expectation from fans, in my view, should be that Tim will have his strengths and weaknesses and that he should develop in both. It would amaze me if the club was focusing on his weaknesses to the extent we as fans seem to collectively, when the good things he brings to the game well and truly offset them. Like every player in the team his weaknesses will be exposed from time to time, so it's up to the group to work on mitigating the impact of that exposure when it occurs.

So I agree, hopefully things really click for Tim and he goes up another gear - it'll be amazing from him if they do. But that's not as important to me as making sure we play better across the board, acknowledge the areas in which we are exposed, and figure out how to deal with them as a TEAM.

[Go_Dogs]

Agree Jee.

Getting our plans right on when we ruck Tim/Lobb, and getting buy in to spend resting time up front, will make a big difference.

Tim is awesome at what Tim does.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Where did Naughton and Jamarra finish?

On performance neither are top 5.

On importance to the side now and in the future, both are clearly top 5.

English isn't in either group and anyone who disputes it refuses to look at the history of the game - you do NOT need to be paying a ruck in your top 5 paid players to win a flag (or multiple flags).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I was always talking about top 5-10 (never said he was top 5) and you quoted me on that, then suggested he isn?t in that range as shown by B&F results, so I?m confused what point you?ve been trying to make.

Fair enough, my mistake.


Of course we wouldn?t want 10 players on that size contract, but you don?t typically need to. We can afford to pay Timmy $1mil when other top 10 players are on significantly less (Libba, Dale, Daniel would all be on $600k-ish, and I wouldn?t be surprised if Sanders instantly finds himself in the top 10 this year while on a draftee contract).

That's a rather shallow approach to be able to 'afford' to overpay because you can at the present time.

That doesn't take into account future contracts (i.e. Marra, Smith etc.) nor does it take into account the need (and there is ALWAYS a need) to lure talent from other clubs.


When you?ve got guys in their prime years who are among the best in their position, they typically cost on the higher end of salaries.

Salary doesn?t always perfectly match the order of best to worst player, there?s a lot more nuance than that.

They do, but we've already got the likes of Bontempelli, Naughton and maybe/nearly Jamarra on (or about to be on) $1m+. You have to sacrifice somewhere, you can't just keep handing out inflated contracts (in the past that's been JJ, Hunter, and now Macrae).

Aside from Gawn - and English is nowhere near his prime mind you - what other rucks have been paid in the top 3 of their club and been integral to a premiership?

Cox, Cameron, Lycett, Stanley, Roughead, Nankervis - these are all names that were handy in their own right but commanding nowhere near what English is. Our club has spoken about reading the trends of the game, well, this is a trend that has existed for a long, long time.

[Grantysghost]

On performance neither are top 5.

On importance to the side now and in the future, both are clearly top 5.

English isn't in either group and anyone who disputes it refuses to look at the history of the game - you do NOT need to be paying a ruck in your top 5 paid players to win a flag (or multiple flags).

But if you could you would.

[Mofra]

On performance neither are top 5.

On importance to the side now and in the future, both are clearly top 5.

English isn't in either group and anyone who disputes it refuses to look at the history of the game - you do NOT need to be paying a ruck in your top 5 paid players to win a flag (or multiple flags).
Brad Ottens more than once
Tom Boyd in 2016
And the year the Grand Final was in Perth that shall go unnamed

[G-Mo77]

Brad Ottens more than once
Tom Boyd in 2016
And the year the Grand Final was in Perth that shall go unnamed

Neither just solely rucks and known more as Forwards.

[hujsh]

Brad Ottens more than once
Tom Boyd in 2016
And the year the Grand Final was in Perth that shall go unnamed

Perth is an exception and there are certainly plenty of runners up with great rucks (Grundy, Natinui come to mind) but two of those above were blokes payed to be key forwards who ended up rucking. I'm not sure it disproves that a high paid ruck is not a necessity to winning premiership. That said if it can be a point of difference it might be worthwhile

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Brad Ottens more than once
Tom Boyd in 2016
And the year the Grand Final was in Perth that shall go unnamed

I don't understand why you mentioned a random ansett cup in your argument. A bit weird.

[Mofra]

Perth is an exception and there are certainly plenty of runners up with great rucks (Grundy, Natinui come to mind) but two of those above were blokes payed to be key forwards who ended up rucking. I'm not sure it disproves that a high paid ruck is not a necessity to winning premiership. That said if it can be a point of difference it might be worthwhile
I'm not sure sticking strictly to historical precedent is a guarantee of success. The cost savings in letting Timmy walk, then trading in a ready to go ruck may be marginal at best
The other option is really solely on Lobb and Darcy to stay healthy all of 2025 which sounds risky too.

As weird as it sounds, spending the cash to keep Timmy might be the least risky path.

[Happy Days]

It’s not worth paying key forwards because Collingwood and Melbourne won flags without gun ones. It’s not worth paying midfielders because Richmond won 3 flags with only one superstar in there, and only half the time at that. It’s not worth paying defenders because Geelong won with a rookie at CHB and this other team I know won a flag with a PSD pick and a delisted free agent holding key posts. It’s not worth paying small defenders and forwards when you can just get them off the rookie list.

It’s not actually worth paying anyone IMHO. We should just pocket the cap money and put it towards the footy trip.

[Testekill]

It’s not worth paying key forwards because Collingwood and Melbourne won flags without gun ones. It’s not worth paying midfielders because Richmond won 3 flags with only one superstar in there, and only half the time at that. It’s not worth paying defenders because Geelong won with a rookie at CHB and this other team I know won a flag with a PSD pick and a delisted free agent holding key posts. It’s not worth paying small defenders and forwards when you can just get them off the rookie list.

It’s not actually worth paying anyone IMHO. We should just pocket the cap money and put it towards the footy trip.

We should have a team consisting entirely of walk ons from off the street.

[EasternWest]

We should have a team consisting entirely of walk ons from off the street.

I volunteer as tribute

[hujsh]

I'm not sure sticking strictly to historical precedent is a guarantee of success. The cost savings in letting Timmy walk, then trading in a ready to go ruck may be marginal at best
The other option is really solely on Lobb and Darcy to stay healthy all of 2025 which sounds risky too.

As weird as it sounds, spending the cash to keep Timmy might be the least risky path.

FWIW I'm actually fine if he signs a deal as reported. I still have concerns on if it's the best place to put our money but assuming Smith is gone anyway it doesn't seem to be squeezing anyone out (esp if Macrae looks to leave for lack of opportunity). All I've really done is point out where I'd like/expect to see improvement. He's got his strengths but unfortunately his weaknesses really stand out when exposed because the ruck is a very 1v1 position where in other parts of the ground there's more of a system you can point to (did the defenders not defend well enough or did the midfielders/forwards let the ball in too easy being one example) or team mates to cover for you.

[GVGjr]

I watched English school Darcy today and he was just too mobile and talented for him and push forward and kicked a goal.
I'm really looking forward to the English v Gawn match up

[hujsh]

I watched English school Darcy today and he was just too mobile and talented for him and push forward and kicked a goal.
I'm really looking forward to the English v Gawn match up

I feel like some of English's best games have been against Gawn and he matches up alright on him. That said Gawn'll be ready for a big game after last week

[bulldogtragic]

Right now FA compo would be Pick 3.

Just saying.

[JanLorMill]

Right now FA compo would be Pick 3.

Just saying.
Agreed.
We probably need to low ball him, cos 800K is too much annd our list structure is out of whack. 3 tall forwards won’t work and we have at least 4. 2 of them are rucks. Mistake was made recruiting Lobb. If English is proper ruck then he should be able to ruck most the game.

[angelopetraglia]

Leigh Matthews on Tim English today versus Max Gawn "I don't know what Tim English was trying to do."

https://x.com/FootyonNine/status/1769319292346957916?s=20

[jeemak]

Leigh Matthews on Tim English today versus Max Gawn "I don't know what Tim English was trying to do."

https://x.com/FootyonNine/status/1769319292346957916?s=20

Has the "legend of the game" (thug) not realised that Max Gawn is still much stronger than English and that trying to fend and wrestle with a guy who is the strongest ruck in the league (let alone the best), smarting after a crap week, one game ahead in the season on an underdone player, and off an uninterrupted preseason is a bad idea?

It's like the calls to play in front of him at throw ins. Max Gawn just pushes you underneath the footy if you do that, feeds someone corridor side, or gets the ball and kicks it forwards. At least if you push him forwards your mids have a chance to box it and the opposition is already boundary side. Playing him side on doesn't work either as you open up 180 degrees for him.

[G-Mo77]

Right now FA compo would be Pick 3.

Just saying.

So if we stink it up we let him walk and get good comp. If we don't (not likely) then we sign him for a record deal?

[jeemak]

So if we stink it up we let him walk and get good comp. If we don't (not likely) then we sign him for a record deal?

We have a veto/ deal match due to him being a RFA. It's just something we can keep in the back of our minds when we think the trade period has already gone on long enough, but the deal still hasn't been done! :)

[bulldogtragic]

So if we stink it up we let him walk and get good comp. If we don't (not likely) then we sign him for a record deal?


We have a veto/ deal match due to him being a RFA. It's just something we can keep in the back of our minds when we think the trade period has already gone on long enough, but the deal still hasn't been done! :)

This. If we continue this form, I wouldn’t rush the deal. If it was a top 4 pick with the RFA matching threat in our favour, then it’s a serious debate in 4 months. Especially if we hand GCS a top 4 pick.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

This. If we continue this form, I wouldn’t rush the deal. If it was a top 4 pick with the RFA matching threat in our favour, then it’s a serious debate in 4 months. Especially if we hand GCS a top 4 pick.

Oh God I keep forgetting about the trade........

[G-Mo77]

Oh God I keep forgetting about the trade........

Probably the best way to be and just ignore any threads that reference it.

[Sedat]

Has the "legend of the game" (thug) not realised that Max Gawn is still much stronger than English and that trying to fend and wrestle with a guy who is the strongest ruck in the league (let alone the best), smarting after a crap week, one game ahead in the season on an underdone player, and off an uninterrupted preseason is a bad idea?
If only there was a ready-made senior ruckman available for us to trade for in the last year or two, who has proven to more than handle Gawn at stoppages.

English has been in the system for 8 pre-seasons, having been drafted as an overager. When are we expecting him to be the assertive senior ruckman at stoppages and not the one pushed aside?

[The Pie Man]

The excuses need to stop. English was atrocious yesterday. Not just in the ruck, how he allowed Petracca to mark overhead in front of him was inexcusable.

Of all the out of contract signings, he’s the lowest priority for mine - see what we can get

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't think he was putrid yesterday - kick 2 goals and his numbers look good.

Problem is, the coin he wants is coin we shouldn't even entertain giving him. He's not worth it, and yesterday was one of MANY examples why we'd be better getting a top 3 pick or x2 top 12 picks for him.

Stats wise, English always looks good but it's deceiving. He fails in the big moments, because in the big moments you need to be a physical presence as a ruck and that's just not his game.

[G-Mo77]

The excuses need to stop. English was atrocious yesterday. Not just in the ruck, how he allowed Petracca to mark overhead in front of him was inexcusable.

Of all the out of contract signings, he’s the lowest priority for mine - see what we can get

I agree with this. I think we can moneyball his role short term (Lobb) and nurse Darcy along into his starting role.

[azabob]

Can we reset this poll?

It seems his effort or lack of effort in last nights match has pushed a lot of posters over the edge.

[G-Mo77]

Just not worth it and last night was a clear example if some people need more. Paying someone over 1m per season for 7 - 8 years and dish out that when they get bumped around is insanity. I'm at the stage now where I'll be disappointed if I read the news he's signed on long term.

[bulldogtragic]

I was playing for $7M pay day, I’d not put that kind of effort in. Unless it’s a George Costanza move to have us happy to let him go.

If you took away the AA jacket. You’d say he’s a very handy player, not a brilliant ruck, and laugh at $1M a year. I’ve always said he’d be the best forward/second ruck. But that ain’t happening so we just need to pony up (unlike Brisbane and Dunks) or take the compo. I’d say we pony up and pray he turns into a $1M a season player.

[mighty_west]

Timmy just isn't strong enough in the ruck contest and continually gets worked over, i see him as a very tall utility player who can give a chop out, great around the ground given his size, very versatile etc but that seems to be hurting us in the middle and has been for a long time now being our number one ruck.

I guess we just have to work out how valuable that is to our side, could we just have a pure strong ruckman who would give our mids better coverage but lack what Timmy does around the ground, would that make us overall a better side?

[SonofScray]

Cash out.

[Grantysghost]

Just not worth it and last night was a clear example if some people need more. Paying someone over 1m per season for 7 - 8 years and dish out that when they get bumped around is insanity. I'm at the stage now where I'll be disappointed if I read the news he's signed on long term.
We will offer him a long term deal on big coin.

Last night he was so bad I'm not sure what I think anymore.

Wasn't just the ruck capitulation, his around the ground work was borderline apathetic.

Hopefully he was off for another reason like illness. He's better than that.

[angelopetraglia]

It has to be less than Friday morning. That is for sure.

[1eyedog]

I was playing for $7M pay day, I?d not put that kind of effort in. Unless it?s a George Costanza move to have us happy to let him go.

If you took away the AA jacket. You?d say he?s a very handy player, not a brilliant ruck, and laugh at $1M a year. I?ve always said he?d be the best forward/second ruck. But that ain?t happening so we just need to pony up (unlike Brisbane and Dunks) or take the compo. I?d say we pony up and pray he turns into a $1M a season player.

That pick / compo whatever we get us going to be awesome and we will get a better player out if it.

[whythelongface]

We will offer him a long term deal on big coin.

Last night he was so bad I'm not sure what I think anymore.

Wasn't just the ruck capitulation, his around the ground work was borderline apathetic.

Hopefully he was off for another reason like illness. He's better than that.


Yep he dropped a number of possible marks in the backline. This has been one of his strengths but last night was poor. We need a ruckman that can hit to advantage. I am afraid Tim will never be that.

[jazzadogs]

The better question now is...what should WE get paid for him?

First round compo would be immediately following the first round pick we gave away.

If we match the contract, a team would need to trade with us...and I think we could demand a big return. If Taranto is worth two first rounders then English is worth at least that.

I've been on board keeping him but last night was a turning point for me.

[josie]

The better question now is...what should WE get paid for him?

First round compo would be immediately following the first round pick we gave away.

If we match the contract, a team would need to trade with us...and I think we could demand a big return. If Taranto is worth two first rounders then English is worth at least that.

I've been on board keeping him but last night was a turning point for me.

Yep. I?ve been patient - hoping and bolstered by the good game and constantly worried by his poor tap work and lack of initiating body contact or coping with it. Nice bloke but nice booked don?t always have that killer instinct. I think if we keep him on big coin 70% of it is sunk cost bias.

[lemmon]

The better question now is...what should WE get paid for him?

First round compo would be immediately following the first round pick we gave away.

If we match the contract, a team would need to trade with us...and I think we could demand a big return. If Taranto is worth two first rounders then English is worth at least that.

I've been on board keeping him but last night was a turning point for me.

At which point I think English becomes imminently less attractive to rival clubs.

West Coast are the ones being touted, if they offer English $1.1million and we match forcing them to trade, are they really going to hand over two first-rounders? I don't see it with where they're at. Even if they've committed to the player, I think the attraction is that the wage is offset by keeping draft capital and by matching we'd probably just end up retaining Tim on a lot of money.

[GVGjr]

I don't see a lot of sense in trading Tim. He had a shocker last night but he is still one of the better ruck men in competition.
As for trade value, we might get a first rounder and perhaps a 3rd rounder but I'd back it in that West Coast won't be parting with a top 5 pick for his services. At best they split their early pick and we get something after pick 10 and we then have a trouble looking to acquire a mobile ruck man that fits into our system.
I rate Lobb but he isn't a 4 quarter a game ruck man over the longer haul of a season.
Darcy is far better value up forward than in the ruck.

[ledge]

Watching ruck contests lately I am confused as it seems both ruckman go for each other and not the ball, isn’t that against the rules to go the man ?
Years ago it was a free kick , it was also against the rules if a ruckman grabbed the ball in the ruck and got held, seems they now can be grabbed and play on.

[chef]

Watching ruck contests lately I am confused as it seems both ruckman go for each other and not the ball, isn’t that against the rules to go the man ?
Years ago it was a free kick , it was also against the rules if a ruckman grabbed the ball in the ruck and got held, seems they now can be grabbed and play on.

They changed the rules this season and it certainly doesn't suit Tim and his lack of aggression.

[jazzadogs]

They changed the rules this season and it certainly doesn't suit Tim and his lack of aggression.

Ruck rules are probably the worst meddled with in the game.

What was wrong with third man up? It generally lead to a bigger tap out of congestion. Good for the game, should be brought back.

Why would you let rucks grab it and be tackled without penalty? It negates every other time change, designed to make the game more free flowing. Rucks are very happy to grab the ball and force another stoppage. Rewind it.

How does letting the rucks grapple more improve the spectacle or quality of the game? Why did that change need to be made? Would we be wanting an English-style ruck if we knew this change was coming?

[macca]

We have an AA ruckman, but who is not a bash and crash, nor stoppage ruckman. I find it unbelievable that I am even thinking of trading him... why ?
1. English is not a Dean cox. Cox was a fine ruckman who ran all day like a midfielder. English is a midfielder who is in a ruckman's body. I am sorry English, you will not be a dominate ruckman against top 4 teams.
2. 2 big bodied ruckman > Tim english and who ever is substitute as a ruck. Bash and crash ruckman in : Soldo, Nankervis, Gawn, McInterny, Goldstein/Draper even Pittonet have good stoppage work. They always beat him in a contest. I reckon, the rival coaches have worked us out in the midfield.
step 1. beat English by aggression and body work , step 2 : keep Libba and Bont out of the contest ( dont worry the umps will not pick blocking up , as they hate us). step 3: push English around in marking contest so he loses it .
3. I have conspiracy theory that the AFL stitched us up last year with him being AA, so to inflate his price.

I reckon we should trade him now at his at apex of value.

2 first round picks( either both this year, or one this year or 1 next year) + future second round pick( swap third round pick)

I wonder why we don't have a first round pick this year ? I have a feeling Power was planning for this to unfold. Either Power does not rate this year's draft , or he somehow is planning to acquire a first round pick somehow.

I find it ridicolous I am even suggesting this, but my theory is we can get a bash and crash ruckman to win stoppage , and use the 2-3 high value picks to get gun midfielders. This will give us better clearance value and high statistical potential to win. Essendon beat us in the clearances on friday night which was really disappointing.

Macrae could be another player we could trade to West coast who need big bodied mids.

[JanLorMill]

Who is paying 2 first rounders for English? Best we will get is free agency compensation.

[GVGjr]

Who is paying 2 first rounders for English? Best we will get is free agency compensation.

I agree, even if West Coast split and early pick for two other first rounders they wouldn't part with both of them for Tim.
We might do better with FA compensation anyway.

[Grantysghost]

I agree, even if West Coast split and early pick for two other first rounders they wouldn't part with both of them for Tim.
We might do better with FA compensation anyway.
After our first pick? Is that how it works. Ergo if we don't have a pick until 20 is the best we can expect 21?

[JanLorMill]

After our first pick? Is that how it works. Ergo if we don't have a pick until 20 is the best we can expect 21?
It?s the natural pick prior pick trades so the current Gold Coast pick we gave them.

[angelopetraglia]

Lethal ?you can?t have soft big men?

https://x.com/footyonnine/status/1779457741008048275?s=46&t=oMlyiNHry1lhUs8p7uzZ_A

[bulldogtragic]

After our first pick? Is that how it works. Ergo if we don't have a pick until 20 is the best we can expect 21?

It’s currently pick 9.

[Scorlibo]

Lethal ?you can?t have soft big men?

https://x.com/footyonnine/status/1779457741008048275?s=46&t=oMlyiNHry1lhUs8p7uzZ_A

It's a fair call. I remember early last year Tim brought a huge amount of aggression to ruck contests. Almost over the top. He wound it back but I reckon it set him up for a big year. Might have been a direction from Lade.

[comrade]

Any chance we can pry Darcy away from Freo as part of an English trade?

[mighty_west]

Any chance we can pry Darcy away from Freo as part of an English trade?

Might actually be a win win for both clubs, English would be more of a natural forward than Sean Darcy and Luke Jackson, and perfect to give Jackson a chop out, as we have plenty of tall forwards (imagine thinking that 15 years ago) but need a Sean Darcy type in the ruck.

[JanLorMill]

Any chance we can pry Darcy away from Freo as part of an English trade?
Yes and I would even give they back Lobb for free.

[my plums]

On the Monday Means Test on SEN, Gerard said he would hold off on the contract offer for Big Chill for the next six weeks. The broader media are starting to take notice of his failings, and it will be very interesting to see his response on Thursday. Livid or Timid?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

On the Monday Means Test on SEN, Gerard said he would hold off on the contract offer for Big Chill for the next six weeks. The broader media are starting to take notice of his failings, and it will be very interesting to see his response on Thursday. Livid or Timid?

Yep. Most of us have known it for years. He's great around the ground but a mostly terrible and timid ruck.

[EasternWest]

Yes and I would even give they back Lobb for free.

I mean, I'd be on the phone offering them Lobb now without condition.

[jazzadogs]

Who is paying 2 first rounders for English? Best we will get is free agency compensation.

You may be right in the end... But this isn't a salary dump.

The only real comparative trades for AA level talent who were out of contract:
Tim Taranto (2022) - for picks 12 and 19
Luke Jackson (2022) - for picks 13, f1 , f2
Jeremy Cameron (2020) plus 2 2nd rounders - 13, 15, 20

I think we should be expecting a lot.

[azabob]

It doesn't get any easier this week for Tim.

Marshall is just as athletic but more aggressive than English.

Normally Mashall has his way with English.

[Sedat]

I mean, I'd be on the phone offering them Lobb now without condition.
Hand on heart, I'd rather Lobb as our no 1 ruckman on $500k in 2025 over English on $1m, with Marra and Smith locked away on new contracts.

I know this particular bandwagon would have a lot of spare seats.

[G-Mo77]

Hand on heart, I'd rather Lobb as our no 1 ruckman on $500k in 2025 over English on $1m, with Marra and Smith locked away on new contracts.

I know this particular bandwagon would have a lot of spare seats.

I'm in the seat beside you mate.

[EasternWest]

Hand on heart, I'd rather Lobb as our no 1 ruckman on $500k in 2025 over English on $1m, with Marra and Smith locked away on new contracts.

I know this particular bandwagon would have a lot of spare seats.

No I can see why you would think that. I just disagree.

I'd rather Daniel and Garcia in the ruck if it guaranteed I wouldn't have to see English or Lobb again.

[Axe Man]

Hand on heart, I'd rather Lobb as our no 1 ruckman on $500k in 2025 over English on $1m, with Marra and Smith locked away on new contracts.

I know this particular bandwagon would have a lot of spare seats.


I'm in the seat beside you mate.

https://i.postimg.cc/sX9sQ2pr/thelma1.gif (https://postimages.org/)

[Sedat]

I'd rather Daniel and Garcia in the ruck if it guaranteed I wouldn't have to see English or Lobb again.
If there was a way to transport peak Ed Barlow back onto the list as 2nd ruck/follower, I'd be all over that bandwagon as well. Of course peak Ed Barlow was about a 3 week stretch in 2011 and was never seen or heard again.

[comrade]

Hand on heart, I'd rather Lobb as our no 1 ruckman on $500k in 2025 over English on $1m, with Marra and Smith locked away on new contracts.

I know this particular bandwagon would have a lot of spare seats.

Lobb as ruck, Sam Darcy as back up with Naughton playing in defence and we can start having some fun.

[Sedat]

Lobb as ruck, Sam Darcy as back up with Naughton playing in defence and we can start having some fun.
And maybe a serious crack at Nank in the next 18 months when Richmond really hit the wall and completely bottom out (as well as keeping on drafting at least one ruck prospect every year).

Lobb was excellent in R23 against Geelong at Pissant Park last year - one swallow doesn't make a summer but faced with football mortality, I reckon Lobb would step up big time. English at the start of a fat contract worth $1m plus per year for multiple years simply won't be as dog-hungry in 2025.

[Axe Man]

And maybe a serious crack at Nank in the next 18 months when Richmond really hit the wall and completely bottom out (as well as keeping on drafting at least one ruck prospect every year).

Has Nank got many seasons left in him? He will be 30 in August and I'm just not sure his crash and bash style will allow him to play into his mid 30s.

[josie]

I'm in the seat beside you mate.

Me too Sedat. Wed have some spare cash to buy an ice cream or two too.

[Sedat]

Has Nank got many seasons left in him? He will be 30 in August and I'm just not sure his crash and bash style will allow him to play into his mid 30s.
Goldy looked alright for an almost 36yo on the weekend. Rucks can go well into their mid 30's.

Probably all a moot point with English more than likely staying on very big money. I hope he can finally find that week to week consistent strength and willingness to body his opponent at 27yo. If Lethal's scathing commentary about him on the weekend doesn't sting him into action, I'm not sure anything will - not everyday that an AFEL legend openly questions your courage and competitive spirit.

[Grantysghost]

https://i.postimg.cc/sX9sQ2pr/thelma1.gif (https://postimages.org/)

I'm over defending English.
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNnlubmMzZ2RnYjB6NnVlc2Z3ZzEydzZsNmxscGs0N zR1cGptMzczciZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/gk3R16JhLP8RUka2nD/giphy.gif

[Grantysghost]

Goldy looked alright for an almost 36yo on the weekend. Rucks can go well into their mid 30's.

Probably all a moot point with English more than likely staying on very big money. I hope he can finally find that week to week consistent strength and willingness to body his opponent at 27yo. If Lethal's scathing commentary about him on the weekend doesn't sting him into action, I'm not sure anything will - not everyday that an AFEL legend openly questions your courage and competitive spirit.

Matt Rendell was talking about the Pies looking at Tim in his draft year a while back. His competitiveness was questioned at that age.

[Sedat]

Matt Rendell was talking about the Pies looking at Tim a while back. His competitiveness was questioned at that age.
This was obvious as far back as 2019, but at the time his youth (understandably) was seen as the key factor in his inability at the time to compete and body opposition ruckmen at stoppages. This willingness to body and relentlessly compete hasn't improved much if we are honest.

My personal opinion only, we backed the wrong horse 5 years ago to plough games into English as no.1 ruck, and not consistently support him with a big bodied ruckman so he could organically develop in his more natural position of no.2 ruck/forward. The one time we relented with Stef Martin in 2021, we started 6-0 (until Martin was injured) and then nearly pinched a flag when he returned for the PF/GF. In those first 2 finals in 2021, we even openly preferred Lewis Young to ruck, such was the lack of faith in English to get it done.

[josie]

Yep-on the money again Sedat. I said it elsewhere. It?s a sunk cost bias now, heads on chopping blocks - either we stuffed up or continue with ostrich approach. Really wish we bite the bullet and admit error. Even if it costs some senior folks their jobs.

[chef]

He's just too nice. He's who you want your daughter to bring home not ruck for your life.

[jeemak]

Goldy looked alright for an almost 36yo on the weekend. Rucks can go well into their mid 30's.

Probably all a moot point with English more than likely staying on very big money. I hope he can finally find that week to week consistent strength and willingness to body his opponent at 27yo. If Lethal's scathing commentary about him on the weekend doesn't sting him into action, I'm not sure anything will - not everyday that an AFEL legend openly questions your courage and competitive spirit.

I think it's cute that you believe Tim knows who Leigh Matthews is.

[jeemak]

He's just too nice. He's who you want your daughter to bring home not ruck for your life.

After his first on the ground post match interview I wanted to introduce him to my nanna.

[jeemak]

The whole Tim English concept falls down if he's not offering huge amounts outside of stoppages and inflicting maximum damage on opponents elsewhere.

I personally think too much is made of his shortfalls at the stoppages, and at the same time not enough is made of his good work at the stoppages (HO to advantage - dare I say it).

But with that in balance, he just can't have shit days outside of stoppage work because having good days outside of stoppage work is the key reason he exists.

[1eyedog]

The whole Tim English concept falls down if he's not offering huge amounts outside of stoppages and inflicting maximum damage on opponents elsewhere.

I personally think too much is made of his shortfalls at the stoppages, and at the same time not enough is made of his good work at the stoppages (HO to advantage - dare I say it).

But with that in balance, he just can't have shit days outside of stoppage work because having good days outside of stoppage work is the key reason he exists.

It's all about ceiling Jee everyone knows to add one year per inch for big men. Tim will ripen in 2027 when Bont is totally cooked and Libba is long gone.

[macca]

Goldy looked alright for an almost 36yo on the weekend. Rucks can go well into their mid 30's.

Probably all a moot point with English more than likely staying on very big money. I hope he can finally find that week to week consistent strength and willingness to body his opponent at 27yo. If Lethal's scathing commentary about him on the weekend doesn't sting him into action, I'm not sure anything will - not everyday that an AFEL legend openly questions your courage and competitive spirit.

Goldy is a atheltic freak, I reckon he will keep going until 40.

The legendary Great beard, went to 3 clubs, retired and then got rookied at Collingwood at age of 33! I can't recall if he retired twice at Collingwood.

You could say the same for Shane Mumford.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hudson

[ledge]

King gave English the 3 votes last night, then Bont then Steele . i couldnt possibly have heard that right could i ?

[jeemak]

King gave English the 3 votes last night, then Bont then Steele . i couldnt possibly have heard that right could i ?

I think the four presenters pick a player each and those players are then rated 3-0 best to worst on the ground, and they tally up their picks over the year. So English getting three votes only meant he was the best of the players picked by the production team.

3 - English
2 - Bont
1 - Steele
0 - Wanganeen-Milera

[jeemak]

I found some of the commentary around the rucks baffling last night. I viewed the actual ruck contest as relatively even, with Marshall being a bit more effective at times in terms of getting his hands to the hitout, but with English clearly being more effective around the ground and in secondary phases.

The commentary said English was more effective because our mids were more effective, which was a bit weird. Like, just because we won our ruck was good instead of us winning because our ruck was dominant.

Perhaps this is what vexes me about the position and how view its importance. A lot of qualitative reasoning instead of quantitative goes into judging how a ruck performed.

[ledge]

I think the four presenters pick a player each and those players are then rated 3-0 best to worst on the ground, and they tally up their picks over the year. So English getting three votes only meant he was the best of the players picked by the production team.

3 - English
2 - Bont
1 - Steele
0 - Wanganeen-Milera

Oh ok I just caught the end of it , thanks.

[azabob]

I wonder with West Coasts mini resurgence reignites their interest in English and vice versa?

[ledge]

I wonder with West Coasts mini resurgence reignites their interest in English and vice versa?

I have no problem English going to WC as long as we get Ginbey or Reid.

[bornadog]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/438255842_960587856070478_8993862956870543666_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=5AiP1OR8z2IQ7kNvgEv6XHj&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&cb_e2o_trans=t&oh=00_AfB0zxDucW578TjJoNHkxPc4wjHHAj62w9aHfsiQV_-gbw&oe=662EE753

[jeemak]

Yeah but that only shows that Tim is excellent in hit outs to advantage*. What it doesn't show is all the intangibles he isn't good at because they're not able to be defined.

Tim will only be one of the best rucks in the AFL when he can deliver the intangibles that can't be defined on a regular basis.



*I'm aware this stat is barely tangible.

[comrade]

Just as important to show the opposing ruck?s numbers against if you?re really trying to judge efficiency.

Ruck is probably the most nuanced position in terms of evaluating performance. Hitouts to advantage is meaningless in isolation.

[bulldogtragic]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/438255842_960587856070478_8993862956870543666_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=5AiP1OR8z2IQ7kNvgEv6XHj&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&cb_e2o_trans=t&oh=00_AfB0zxDucW578TjJoNHkxPc4wjHHAj62w9aHfsiQV_-gbw&oe=662EE753

So we can get two lesser type rucks for the price of English and nearly be effective as Tim? :)

Is that the stat?

[Dogs 24/7]

We've invested too much in English to not back him in now. He's got some faults but we have to work around that now and with Lobb signed for a couple of years and the development of Darcy and it sounds like Lachlan Smith is a long term project so we seem to have the right level of support around him. I'd vote to get a 5 year deal in front of English

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Yeah but that only shows that Tim is excellent in hit outs to advantage*. What it doesn't show is all the intangibles he isn't good at because they're not able to be defined.

Tim will only be one of the best rucks in the AFL when he can deliver the intangibles that can't be defined on a regular basis.



*I'm aware this stat is barely tangible.

Haha love it, intangibles and I agree.
So footy smarts, being aware of how you can impact in any given situation.

[ledge]

I am very happy with English, his actual ruck work might not be in the top 5-10 but his around the ground game is exceptional, not often you see a bloke his size run and bounce as often as he does , his tank is great , you will see him kick goals and drop back and take marks in defence.
I’m a fan of Lobb doing the centre bounce, he has more body work in him.
English is more a roaming ruck standing one kick away from play to intercept or kick a goal.

[bulldogtragic]

I want to keep him on a fair price. But $1M for set shot misses like tonight and getting out marked by Aish and man handled ain’t a $1M man.

[bulldogtragic]

We can’t tank the old fashioned way. The only way we get a top 10 pick this year is FA compo for Tim. Currently Pick 9.

I think it’s a genuine question now. Do we delay talks because another million dollar salary or a top 10 pick is worthy of debate.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Bank the cash and take the pick.

[Grantysghost]

We can’t tank the old fashioned way. The only way we get a top 10 pick this year is FA compo for Tim. Currently Pick 9.

I think it’s a genuine question now. Do we delay talks because another million dollar salary or a top 10 pick is worthy of debate.

Is it basically Croft costing us whatever this year's pick is?

So could be a top 10....

[bulldogtragic]

Is it basically Croft costing us whatever this year's pick is?

So could be a top 10....

More so the Pick 13 and currently Pick 8 for Sanders.

The pick 23 is effectively Croft, Freijah & 50 this year.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

If he wants 1m let him go.

My order of signings was always JUH, English then Smith.

I think Smith is more important now.

Ive honestly had enough of Enlgish. He only wants to do so much. He's a great talent but he's holding himself back for some reason. We need to get rid of all these types so we can become a competitive machine again ala 2016

[bornadog]

What rubbish. Not sure a player who had 23 disposals, 7 marks, 6 tackles is a problem? Yes he should have nailed two more goals, but so should others like Bont 5 metres out.

I don't get the hatred for this player and the angst about what the club will pay him.

[EasternWest]

What rubbish. Not sure a player who had 23 disposals, 7 marks, 6 tackles is a problem? Yes he should have nailed two more goals, but so should others like Bont 5 metres out.

I don't get the hatred for this player and the angst about what the club will pay him.

What's not to get? He's not worth what he reportedly wants.

I'm with you I thought he was pretty good tonight, but for a million dollars ruckman I want all of what Tim does well plus a really really good ruckman too.

[G-Mo77]

What rubbish. Not sure a player who had 23 disposals, 7 marks, 6 tackles is a problem? Yes he should have nailed two more goals, but so should others like Bont 5 metres out.

I don't get the hatred for this player and the angst about what the club will pay him.

I don't think anyone hates him. People hate, including me, the price we're going to pay to keep him. Moneyball the ruck, let him walk and take the compensation/trade.

[bornadog]

What's not to get? He's not worth what he reportedly wants.

I'm with you I thought he was pretty good tonight, but for a million dollars ruckman I want all of what Tim does well plus a really really good ruckman too.


I don't think anyone hates him. People hate, including me, the price we're going to pay to keep him. Moneyball the ruck, let him walk and take the compensation/trade.

I actually don't get why people worry about a players salary, I certainly don't care. What I care about is whether he is good enough to play the role.

English is worth what the market wants to pay him. The market dictates a players worth.

[Grantysghost]

If he wants 1m let him go.

My order of signings was always JUH, English then Smith.

I think Smith is more important now.

Ive honestly had enough of Enlgish. He only wants to do so much. He's a great talent but he's holding himself back for some reason. We need to get rid of all these types so we can become a competitive machine again ala 2016
I thought he was ok tonight. That Aish mark though...cant unsee that.

[bulldogtragic]

I actually don't get why people worry about a players salary, I certainly don't care. What I care about is whether he is good enough to play the role.

English is worth what the market wants to pay him. The market dictates a players worth.

If there was no salary cap, sure. Lose Marra or Darcy down the track to a monster offer and that extra million bucks to Tim looks a little different than just another salary.

[bornadog]

If there was no salary cap, sure. Lose Marra or Darcy down the track to a monster offer and that extra million bucks to Tim looks a little different than just another salary.

that's where a smart List manager comes in :D

[MrMahatma]

He’s not having a great season.

[bulldogtragic]

that's where a smart List manager comes in :D

A smart list manager might put a million into a couple of $500,000 good players to grow our depth and take a top 10 pick to the draft.

It’s not personal (at least for me). It’s about the best bang for buck for the list going ahead.

[Grantysghost]

We made our bed with Tim when we decided not to play / develop him in the role he is made for.

Forward / second ruck.

If that happens no Lobb and we might just have a decent stoppage ruck on the list.

[EasternWest]

I actually don't get why people worry about a players salary, I certainly don't care. What I care about is whether he is good enough to play the role.

English is worth what the market wants to pay him. The market dictates a players worth.

Because there's a limit on what we can spend? That's playing dumb and you know it.

I agree the market dictates what a player is worth. Me personally I'd rather put 500 into a competitive physical ruckman and the rest into offering some gun players whatever the western suburbs equivalent of a coa$tal life$tyle is.

[bornadog]

Because there's a limit on what we can spend? That's playing dumb and you know it.

I agree the market dictates what a player is worth. Me personally I'd rather put 500 into a competitive physical ruckman and the rest into offering some gun players whatever the western suburbs equivalent of a coa$tal life$tyle is.

Oh please.

Salary cap is increasing - up to list management to balance it out

[EasternWest]

Oh please.

Salary cap is increasing - up to list management to balance it out

Oh please what? You know there's a salary cap, saying you don't care how much someone gets paid is disingenuous.

If we over invest in anyone that's a failure to manage our list properly. The market dictates what a player is worth, English isnt worth to us what the market is dictating.

[bulldogtragic]

Oh please what? You know there's a salary cap, saying you don't care how much someone gets paid is disingenuous.

If we over invest in anyone that's a failure to manage our list properly. The market dictates what a player is worth, English isnt worth to us what the market is dictating.

Therein lies the dilemma. Is a top 10 pick, market price of him going, better value for the list where it is?

[G-Mo77]

Oh please.

Salary cap is increasing - up to list management to balance it out

It's increasing yes but it is not unlimited. Throwing a huge portion of the TPP over a long period of time on a player like English is poor list management. I think I've said this before in this thread. If they announce English resigned at 1m over 7 I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

[Go_Dogs]

It?s becoming a more interesting discussion by the week.

On current form he?s not in the best 3 rucks in the game, although he?s probably in the top 5 and inconsistently in the best couple.

We?re flush for tall forwards so there?s less reliance on him spending time there, albeit if he could consistently finish in front he?d be a difference maker for us.

His running power in the midfield is important as is his marking ability when it?s turned on.

Is he worth 8% of our (increasing) TPP? Probably not. But he?s worth a bit and someone will be prepared to pay him in that range. We?re probably not too far off doing so ourselves.

[bornadog]

It?s becoming a more interesting discussion by the week.

On current form he?s not in the best 3 rucks in the game, although he?s probably in the top 5 and inconsistently in the best couple.

We?re flush for tall forwards so there?s less reliance on him spending time there, albeit if he could consistently finish in front he?d be a difference maker for us.

His running power in the midfield is important as is his marking ability when it?s turned on.

Is he worth 8% of our (increasing) TPP? Probably not. But he?s worth a bit and someone will be prepared to pay him in that range. We?re probably not too far off doing so ourselves.

Your posts are always rational and a pleasure to read

[bulldogtragic]

It?s becoming a more interesting discussion by the week.

On current form he?s not in the best 3 rucks in the game, although he?s probably in the top 5 and inconsistently in the best couple.

We?re flush for tall forwards so there?s less reliance on him spending time there, albeit if he could consistently finish in front he?d be a difference maker for us.

His running power in the midfield is important as is his marking ability when it?s turned on.

Is he worth 8% of our (increasing) TPP? Probably not. But he?s worth a bit and someone will be prepared to pay him in that range. We?re probably not too far off doing so ourselves.

Bont, Naughts & Tim would be about 25% of our cap. Then Marra, Lobb, Macrae & Treloar could push that into 40-45%. Money for Richards, Cody, soon Darcy and other top kids is probably well over 2/3 the cap. Macrae is almost lost. Treloar is hit and miss. Marra is struggling with goal kicking. Naughton doesn’t drag us over the line in close games. We are expecting too much from too few and we will entrench this issue like Collingwood did. It’s not a lot better than the Rhode days of guns in Grant, West, Smith, Johno and a few good kids, and relying on effectively state leaguers to fill in the roles around them. We need a more even spread and pumping cap into the few seems short sighted.

[Mofra]

I agree the market dictates what a player is worth. Me personally I'd rather put 500 into a competitive physical ruckman and the rest into offering some gun players whatever the western suburbs equivalent of a coa$tal life$tyle is.
Given the cap goes from 12.4m to 17.5m from 2022 to 2025, you're not getting much of a ruck for $500k anymore. That's close to average salary from next year and competent rucks for higher than that.

[EasternWest]

It?s becoming a more interesting discussion by the week.

On current form he?s not in the best 3 rucks in the game, although he?s probably in the top 5 and inconsistently in the best couple.

We?re flush for tall forwards so there?s less reliance on him spending time there, albeit if he could consistently finish in front he?d be a difference maker for us.

His running power in the midfield is important as is his marking ability when it?s turned on.

Is he worth 8% of our (increasing) TPP? Probably not. But he?s worth a bit and someone will be prepared to pay him in that range. We?re probably not too far off doing so ourselves.

Someone mentioned playing him at CHB and chopping out in the ruck and I'm actually in love with that idea. It won't happen, but I think it's a great idea.

[Sedat]

English represents significant draft capital and also salary cap relief. It is officially a no-brainer to allow him to explore his FA options.

He's a really nice player, sometimes he is even excellent. But not once in his career has he been "the man" and gotten his team over the line. Again last night he did some really good things (fantasy points are very kind to him), but again when we needed him to show physicality against a much smaller opponent at a critical moment in the game he failed the test. Footy is all about moments (especially in close games), and he never commands the moments when they really matter - there is nothing intangible about that.

He is what he is. Let's cash our sunk cost when the demand is at its highest, and work towards retaining the players who are genuinely going to help us properly contend/win another flag - English is not going to be that player for us. We have a ready-made on the list who can do his ruck and around the ground stuff at 80-90% effectiveness who is on $500k. Cash out now while we still can.

[EasternWest]

English represents significant draft capital and also salary cap relief. It is officially a no-brainer to allow him to explore his FA options.

He's a really nice player, sometimes he is even excellent. But not once in his career has he been "the man" and gotten his team over the line. Again last night he did some really good things (fantasy points are very kind to him), but again when we needed him to show physicality against a much smaller opponent at a critical moment in the game he failed the test. Footy is all about moments (especially in close games), and he never commands the moments when they really matter - there is nothing intangible about that.

He is what he is. Let's cash our sunk cost when the demand is at its highest, and work towards retaining the players who are genuinely going to help us properly contend/win another flag - English is not going to be that player for us. We have a ready-made on the list who can do his ruck and around the ground stuff at 80-90% effectiveness who is on $500k. Cash out now while we still can.

Agreed and while I think Lobb to this point is a bust if we played him 80 per cent ruck I think he'd give us plenty.

[bulldogtragic]

Agreed and while I think Lobb to this point is a bust if we played him 80 per cent ruck I think he'd give us plenty.

Lobb is the $500,000 a season ruck - already on the list. I think that’s better for us than the nothing pick we’d get offered for him.

[Sedat]

Agreed and while I think Lobb to this point is a bust if we played him 80 per cent ruck I think he'd give us plenty.
Yep, Lobb is worth virtually nothing for a trade and he is contracted for another 2 years beyond this year. It is no-brainer stuff to let English walk, work to retain Marra, Smith and Bont on longer term deals and also get better draft capital with the value that English possesses. Marra has been the man twice already in his career (against Melbourne in late 2022 and Brisbane last year). So has Smith (finals series of 2021). We are threadbare for running power in the midfield as it is so Smith is a must-keep (if at all possible). Thank Macrae and Daniel for their services and package them up to a North, who desperately need senior bodies - take whatever chips they are worth (it won't be a lot) and fix up the list management headaches that those longer-term contracts are giving us. And play Harmes as a defensive mid/high half forward - we have him for 2 more years so let's use him and play to his strengths, which will better balance our playing profile.

[GVGjr]

The salary cap is a vital part of managing a playing list so I'm not as ute we hy any one would not take it into consideration when evaluating a high paid players position within the list. Getting the right valuation on the top end talent opens up opportunities to bring in other players.

[bornadog]

The salary cap is a vital part of managing a playing list so I'm not as ute we hy any one would not take it into consideration when evaluating a high paid players position within the list.
Exactly and that job is with Sam. If he can make it work then it would be great to keep all three players. As Mofra said, the cap is going up to 17 million from 12

[EasternWest]

Lobb is the $500,000 a season ruck - already on the list. I think that?s better for us than the nothing pick we?d get offered for him.

Oh yeah that's exactly what I was saying. I mean Lobb should play the bulk of the time where he's best suited which is ruck. And English could play the bulk at CHB. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

[JanLorMill]

Oh yeah that's exactly what I was saying. I mean Lobb should play the bulk of the time where he's best suited which is ruck. And English could play the bulk at CHB. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
0 proof English would work as a CHB. More likely another backman that’s easily pushed off the ball.

[EasternWest]

0 proof English would work as a CHB. More likely another backman that’s easily pushed off the ball.

Of course, but he's not the ruckman we need. Are you averse to trying new things, Bevo?

[Mofra]

Agreed and while I think Lobb to this point is a bust if we played him 80 per cent ruck I think he'd give us plenty.
Lobb isn't a bust for mine, forward/ruck is just about the hardest role to fill.
He can't help Darcy being an absolute freak of nature who is well ahead in development.

[EasternWest]

Lobb isn't a bust for mine, forward/ruck is just about the hardest role to fill.
He can't help Darcy being an absolute freak of nature who is well ahead in development.

I think he's a bust to this point because he just hasn't found a consistent home. I have no doubts on his ability, but if we continue to get nothing from him then it's a bust.

Give him a home and let him stay there. That's the only real way we'll know.

[azabob]

If you believe the media reports (vomit) we are 65/35 in keeping English.

If we miss finals, does it swing towards English wanting out?

[bulldogtragic]

If you believe the media reports (vomit) we are 65/35 in keeping English.

If we miss finals, does it swing towards English wanting out?

I think the list management committee know they have few options if we miss finals and several older players are shot. How do they intend to bring in top talent to replace Macrae, Daniel, Smith, maybe English &/or Lobb without the first round compo from letting Tim go?

They’ve been operating on this list being top 4, but at some point when reality kicks in, and they accept it. Tim is the obvious way to get back into the draft.

So yep, if this season doesn’t turn around fast, assuming we sign Marra, then Tim has to be a rolling discussion.

[bulldogtragic]

1. Pay his huge ask

2. Take Pick 9 (currently), spend $1M+ on getting other players and get some value out of Lobb for two seasons as Darcy comes on



Not close is it?

[Mofra]

I don't think he's getting close to a million next year. With us or anyone else.

[Testekill]

At this point I'd happily offload him for what we can and replace him with Downie from Williamstown.

[Mofra]

At this point I'd happily offload him for what we can and replace him with Downie from Williamstown.
It was only mental health that forced him out of the system. He still has the talent.
A Lobb/Darcy pairing for 2025 looks decent to me as long as we get a mature back-up option.

[Happy Days]

I got sucked in by him. He’s bad.

[JanLorMill]

Need to start praying someone wants him?

[Sedat]

He was fantasy points best on ground tonight.

[angelopetraglia]

He was fantasy points best on ground tonight.

Engish was good offensively. He kicked two goals. He had 8 score involvements.

He just didn't impose himself on the game when it really mattered. The first half was a train wreck. How can he lose contested possesions to his direct opponent 10-0.

[bulldogtragic]

Engish was good offensively. He kicked two goals. He had 8 score involvements.

He just didn't impose himself on the game when it really mattered. The first half was a train wreck. How can he lose contested possesions to his direct opponent 10-0.

By being soft.

[angelopetraglia]

By being soft.

Yes. Also in pivotal moments in the last quarter too.

MASSIVE differential from what he adds offensively around the ground and the libality that he is in tough moments when it matters is huge.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes. Also in pivotal moments in the last quarter too.

MASSIVE differential from what he adds offensively around the ground and the libality that he is in tough moments when it matters is huge.

That’s what the fantasy points don’t show up.

[Sedat]

Engish was good offensively. He kicked two goals. He had 8 score involvements.

He just didn't impose himself on the game when it really mattered. The first half was a train wreck. How can he lose contested possesions to his direct opponent 10-0.
Tim is extremely damaging when he's on his own and in space, and he is a complete liability in contested situations (usually in moments when we can least afford it).

It has always been thus.

[angelopetraglia]

Tim is extremely damaging when he's on his own and in space, and he is a complete liability in contested situations (usually in moments when we can least afford it).

It has always been thus.

Massive dilema.

I think when we are winning the toughness around the ball is probably overlooked. Also, many more opportunites to get on the end of it when you are winning the ball constantly at the source.

I watched Tim cloesly today and one his absolute assets is the way he can cover the ground for a big man. He runs forward of the ball when we have possession and also gets back. If we are dominating games he can rack up midfielder type numbers.

Inversely when we are under pressure and losing, his weaknesses are exposed.

[Sedat]

Massive dilema.
Only when your nominated role in the team requires strength and resilience against your direct opponent.

He is a terrific link man and always has been. What he isn't is a reliable contested ruckman, and it's long odds he ever will be.

[jeemak]

He's not consistently a good contested ruck but he is capable with the right level of in quarter application, and that's what is so frustrating about him.

However, I get just as frustrated with how he's not consistently able to apply himself in defensive support and stretching opposition defences. He drops away in these areas just as often as he drops away in his contested work, and this is what makes me cagey about his value.

Max Gawn may look like a dill sometimes with the odd blunder, but he consistently stands where he needs to when the opposition has the ball, he takes the marks he needs to so his team can be under less down the line pressure, and the gap between his highest contested application versus his worst is minor.

It's upstairs for Tim if he wants to be a consistent player and he probably isn't ever going to nail it. If he goes I just don't want to replace him with somebody worse than he is today.