How many Outside Mids do we Pick?

[mjp]

After watching what I could (first game) of the game vs Hawthorn, I'm becoming more (and more, and more) curious about how the MC are going to manage our outside mids. For the purposes of this, I'm going to assume the following:

Both Wingers are outside mids.
Bevo continues to play a high forward at the stop.
Off ball half forward is going to be more outside mid than pure-forward.

The question is though, does this mean:

Play 2x wingers (two out of Poulter, Williams and Baker)
2x high forwards (say, West and Daniel)
1x inside mid rolls through these spots at any given time to give them a blow (Treloar, Harmes, etc).

OR

Play 3x wingers (one starts on the bench and spends some time at half back to balance rotations).
2x high forwards
Inside mid goes forward as required but pretty much no need for wing time.

OR

Play 2x wingers
Play 3x high forwards
Inside mids stay out of this rotation but we do things like use Bont in the talls rotation up forward.

I'm not sure how everyone else is going but trying to select a balanced group of 22 + sub is not really easy right now...our inside/outside balance is still not right and our group of inside mids > half forwards...so do we select for talent or role here??

[Grantysghost]

I think we will go option 1 which we've always done.

I agree the balance will be interesting especially with someone like Macrae who I wonder does he have a seat left?

I would have something like :

Poulter xxxx Williams
Sanders xxxx West

Harmes rolling through makes sense.

Treloar, now I have nfi what we do with him compared to last season?


Sanders goes up doing the Baz +1 role.

[mjp]

I think we will go option 1 which we've always done.

I agree the balance will be interesting especially with someone like Macrae who I wonder does he have a seat left?

I would have something like :

Poulter xxxx Williams
Sanders xxxx West

Harmes rolling through makes sense.

Treloar, now I have nfi what we do with him compared to last season?


Sanders goes up doing the Baz +1 role.

So - where does Daniel play then?

I'm actually a bit lost right now. All the talk about McNeil after his 4-goals...like - I get what you are saying but how many seats are there at the table. As for the likes of Jones and Clarke...man. I don't see a spot for them AT ALL right now.

I guess it could all change if Weightman is the one who takes the Bazz role (which is where this seems to be heading right now) but if that happens, Sanders is in the VFL. I think that's OK as an aside - he's a kid in his first season - but I also think his performances will have him promoted within 4-6 weeks...

I mean, I guess it's a good problem but is it role > talent or talent > role or MC Trust factor > everything else??

[Go_Dogs]

In probably leaning towards 3 X wingers in the 23.

I think all of Williams, Poulter, Treloar, Harmes and Daniel can play half back though won’t start there.

I think all of Daniel, West, Harmes, Treloar, Sanders, McNeil, Weightman can play high half forward - in addition to Baker and Poulter.

If Macrae comes in I’m more worried about our balance. If he doesn’t start because of injury it improves. Having he and Libba is tricky as they lack the versatility. Libba is the preferred player.

[Mofra]

Well, TBH I have trouble even categorizing players before we consider which 'outside' roles they will fill.

Anthony Scott - he did everything bar take a ruck contest last year. Is he considered a winger?
I consider Truck as a lock on one wing but he rolled back (in JOD's absence) in game 1 - is he a utility again?

I guess Poulter & Baker are fighting for the other 'pure' wing spot so we're playing two wings (Williams and Poulter), Scott who is 'mostly' a wing and a bunch of mids who will rotate high-HF, Harmes first and Macrae second. Daniel rotates through as well, Sanders bench/ 2nd CBA rotation, and West and McNeill rotating deeper forward.

The other question mark is Weightman - is he now part of the CBA rotations? Will he play deep, high?

[Go_Dogs]

I keep forgetting Scott too!

The more I think about it, we’re much better balanced than we have been in prior years (theoretically).

[mjp]

I keep forgetting Scott too!

The more I think about it, we’re much better balanced than we have been in prior years (theoretically).

Only if we pick 'em mate.

[dog town]

No idea what we do but I love the thread. It’s our biggest issue going into round 1, we can’t just pick our best 22 players and wedge them into positions they can’t/don’t play.

[mjp]

No idea what we do but I love the thread. It’s our biggest issue going into round 1, we can’t just pick our best 22 players and wedge them into positions they can’t/don’t play.

Betcha we do.

[Mantis]

So - where does Daniel play then?

No idea... he doesn't have a clearly defined role which is a concern.


I'm actually a bit lost right now. All the talk about McNeil after his 4-goals...like - I get what you are saying but how many seats are there at the table. As for the likes of Jones and Clarke...man. I don't see a spot for them AT ALL right now.

I guess it could all change if Weightman is the one who takes the Bazz role (which is where this seems to be heading right now) but if that happens, Sanders is in the VFL. I think that's OK as an aside - he's a kid in his first season - but I also think his performances will have him promoted within 4-6 weeks...

I mean, I guess it's a good problem but is it role > talent or talent > role or MC Trust factor > everything else??

There's quite a few of us that are lost and as 'dog town' pointed out we are looking likely to once again just try and fit in our best 23 players, many of whom are double-ups for their most preferred roles.

We watch on with interest.

[The Underdog]

Betcha we do.

History would suggest this is the case.

The lack of defined positions for guys like Macrae and Daniel, who on talent are easily best 22, seems a huge problem.

[mjp]

History would suggest this is the case.

The lack of defined positions for guys like Macrae and Daniel, who on talent are easily best 22, seems a huge problem.

I just think we will take a 'Talent > Role' approach and try to figure it out. I'm not against this approach but it's why all the talk about a balanced list is a bit of a fallacy...our best players ALL play the same roles. We have 4x key forwards we are happy to play...and 1x key back. We have probs 6x inside mids...and maybe 2 outside...

It's still a bit of a mess.

[Grantysghost]

So - where does Daniel play then?

I'm actually a bit lost right now. All the talk about McNeil after his 4-goals...like - I get what you are saying but how many seats are there at the table. As for the likes of Jones and Clarke...man. I don't see a spot for them AT ALL right now.

I guess it could all change if Weightman is the one who takes the Bazz role (which is where this seems to be heading right now) but if that happens, Sanders is in the VFL. I think that's OK as an aside - he's a kid in his first season - but I also think his performances will have him promoted within 4-6 weeks...

I mean, I guess it's a good problem but is it role > talent or talent > role or MC Trust factor > everything else??

Caleb is an AA back - I don't know why we moved him ? We tried a few things last season that I don't think benefited the side overall. I'd have him in the back 6, not Vandermeer or Duryea whom we had in there late last year. I get teams try to exploit his height however I don't think it negates his attacking ability. I believe our rebound 50 stuff was terrible last season.

To me I just don't have Williams in the side. I get it, he looks nice, does some flashy things however I just feel he almost epitomises the Dogs conditional effort I find really frustrating. I get I'm a little against the tide with this opinion.

I'd start with Poulter and Baker on the wings, back 7 (including rotation) of

Daniel, JOD, Richards, Dale, Jones, Coffield, JJ.

The OP is very good, when you start looking at positions it feels like we are way out of balance and shoe horning people into roles just to get them on the park. I need to sit down and do my best 23.

[ledge]

Well all the players we are talking about on a wing none have actual speed, maybe Baker .
If we want speed wouldn’t JJ and VDM move into a wing ?
According to the media it’s all about speed this year.

[bornadog]

I just think we will take a 'Talent > Role' approach and try to figure it out. I'm not against this approach but it's why all the talk about a balanced list is a bit of a fallacy...our best players ALL play the same roles. We have 4x key forwards we are happy to play...and 1x key back. We have probs 6x inside mids...and maybe 2 outside...

It's still a bit of a mess.

Does Talent rule over role players? If you are talented, shouldn't you be able to play other roles?

I think we haven't had the depth of players we need, so mids become half forward flankers. What do other teams do?

[mjp]

Does Talent rule over role players? If you are talented, shouldn't you be able to play other roles?


Are you talented because you can play any role or are you a player who is ELITE at playing a particular role?

There's nothing wrong with being an excellent player in one position but merely 'average' at others. I think you would agree that Liber is at his best in the mids, and whilst he 'CAN' play as a half-forward, he isn't the same calibre hf as he is inside mid?

[Mantis]

There's nothing wrong with being an excellent player in one position but merely 'average' at others. I think you would agree that Liber is at his best in the mids, and whilst he 'CAN' play as a half-forward, he isn't the same calibre hf as he is inside mid?

Given Libba is seen as 1st choice midfielder a better or real example might be Macrae who dropped out of the midfield rotation last year and his skill-set doesn't really transfer across as a HF.

[mjp]

Given Libba is seen as 1st choice midfielder a better or real example might be Macrae who dropped out of the midfield rotation last year and his skill-set doesn't really transfer across as a HF.

I guess ultimately it doesn't matter...my point was that it is a pretty rare player who is elite in multiple roles. I know we expect them to be, but it simply doesn't work that way...

[whythelongface]

Ultimately it comes down to the question if a player who plays multiple roles whether their impact is better than player x, y or z in that specific role? It all depends on the quality available. For example last year the match committee may have thought Macrae was better suited to play HF with stints in the midfield than West purely as a HF.

I would rather have players play specialist roles. We would better off with 2 to 3 specialist small forwards than having a mid rest there who doesn?t play the position well. Macrae was a case in point last year - for whatever reason he continued to play there. This year we could have West, McNeil, Clarke and Cody as our small forwards with Harmes and maybe Treloar (along with Bont) spending time in the forward line. If this means a very good mid misses out on selection then so be it. Whether it happens this way we shall see.

[MrMahatma]

I'd prefer we play guys in their preferred position... which means some VERY good players at other positions are in the VFL... and I don't even have the courage to list them, let alone being on the MC and having to actually DO that.

[Mantis]

I'd prefer we play guys in their preferred position... which means some VERY good players at other positions are in the VFL... and I don't even have the courage to list them, let alone being on the MC and having to actually DO that.

It's a tough one for sure... but coming off 2 very mediocre seasons whereby we've tried to fill our team with a thousand mids you would think we would change our strategy now? Surely the credits are out and we've acknowledged that our tactics haven't worked?

[mjp]

It's a tough one for sure... but coming off 2 very mediocre seasons whereby we've tried to fill our team with a thousand mids you would think we would change our strategy now? Surely the credits are out and we've acknowledged that our tactics haven't worked?

It's not just the fact that they are mids though. We are talking about a group of AA quality players who have a lot of pride in their performances and - I have no doubt - see themselves through the lens of "I am a good player" (of course) but also have a clear vision of what they are doing when playing well...and it involves winning clearances, winning the footy etc.

For players to be successful in 'other' roles - and I don't just mean for a week or two, but longer term - they first have to adjust how they perceive what 'good footy' looks like and that's very hard.

[Go_Dogs]

No idea what we do but I love the thread. It?s our biggest issue going into round 1, we can?t just pick our best 22 players and wedge them into positions they can?t/don?t play.

It FEELS like we?re trying to get better at this - we?ll know for sure in a few weeks. If we go this way, we?ll pay the price fairly quickly as other sides will be more agile, faster and better able to execute their game plans. Hopefully the coaching group see this and while some unpopular calls may be made with some more established players not being named from time to time, them keeping those selected in the preferred positions honest and us having selection integrity based on ability to execute the plan (whatever it is) must be the approach.

If not a coaching change could come quickly.

[Grantysghost]

Well all the players we are talking about on a wing none have actual speed, maybe Baker .
If we want speed wouldn?t JJ and VDM move into a wing ?
According to the media it?s all about speed this year.

JJ on a wing is an interesting one.

I'd say it's that moment in the 2016 PF that answers that question.

He breaks lines with his speed and that is more useful as a HB as he has more space to accelerate into.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOgZX-BEUE

[bornadog]

JJ on a wing is an interesting one.

I'd say it's that moment in the 2016 PF that answers that question.

He breaks lines with his speed and that is more useful as a HB as he has more space to accelerate into.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOgZX-BEUE

The roar at the ground when Bont kicked the goal - it sounded like 50000 there

[Grantysghost]

The roar at the ground when Bont kicked the goal - it sounded like 50000 there
Was insane

[mjp]

The roar at the ground when Bont kicked the goal - it sounded like 50000 there

I went to the final in Perth (obviously) and the two in Melbourne...but didn't go to Sydney.

Why do I continuously feel like I somehow missed the main event? The problem was, I had to choose between going to the Giants game and probably having to miss the GF or risk us losing the PF in order to secure GF flights etc...I mean, I know it's the Dogs but I do have a budget of some sort...

[chef]

Was insane

Still get tingles watching that.

[ledge]

JJ on a wing is an interesting one.

I'd say it's that moment in the 2016 PF that answers that question.

He breaks lines with his speed and that is more useful as a HB as he has more space to accelerate into.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOgZX-BEUE

But in that video look where the ball went, about 60 metres from goal put him on a wing and he puts it ten metres out .

[kruder]

FWIW Kingggy was sitting near me the other day and one of his concerns are our group of small forwards/ high half forwards and the fact outside of Cody(flys for marks too often) none of them are basically specialists at the role.

Nothing we haven't discussed but I thought it was worth mentioning it in this thread.

[FrediKanoute]

We play the best players in the positions which suit them best (JJ at HB, Bont in the middle, LIbba in the middle etc) and then look at the gaps and consider whether having West play as a forward pocket is better than Charlie Clarke as a forward pocket or Gardner as a full back is better than Khamis as full back.

Hoping that best players in best positions doesn't leave too many gaps.

[whythelongface]

FWIW Kingggy was sitting near me the other day and one of his concerns are our group of small forwards/ high half forwards and the fact outside of Cody(flys for marks too often) none of them are basically specialists at the role.

Nothing we haven't discussed but I thought it was worth mentioning it in this thread.

Probably our biggest issue. We seem to get the ball in our fwd 50 enough but our conversion of inside 50?s to goals is poor. Delivery is one issue but not having quality crumbers is another. We need Clarke to come on in leaps and bounds. Hopefully others can fill the void.

[Grantysghost]

I went to the final in Perth (obviously) and the two in Melbourne...but didn't go to Sydney.

Why do I continuously feel like I somehow missed the main event? The problem was, I had to choose between going to the Giants game and probably having to miss the GF or risk us losing the PF in order to secure GF flights etc...I mean, I know it's the Dogs but I do have a budget of some sort...

It's very strange. That game was so unique, therr was a feeling you never get for dogs games and it was "we are the big dogs in town". We took over West Sydney.
There was certainly an air of destiny about those weeks after the Hawks game.
It was probably the best game I've ever been to. The GF was like another world I can barely remember it.

That game however, I nearly recall every moment. Getting over the prelim hoodoo was so huge especially for gen x peeps like me.

[Sedat]

Getting over the prelim hoodoo was so huge especially for gen x peeps like me.
From 1985 to 2010 we lost 7 consecutive PF's - we were hammered in some and lost by a kick in others, and they were all shit. It was massive to get over this hoodoo in 2016, and was pivotal in our premiership triumph a week later when the flag was very much on the line in the last 10 minutes.

[Dazza]

Not too sure. Wingmen are one of our biggest weaknesses