Racism - Vilification Class Action Against AFL/ VFL

[jeemak]

I wonder how far this will spread:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-10/afl-greats-alleged-racism-class-action/103569932

Kevin Sheedy and Terry Daniher are among a number of AFL greats named in a landmark class action against the AFL for allegedly failing to protect players from racial abuse on the field.

The class action has been brought by North Melbourne great Phil Krakouer and six others who played football between 1975 and 2022, including his brother James Krakouer.

The statement lodged in the Supreme Court of Victoria alleged that from the time Krakouer signed with North Melbourne in the early 1980s, he was the victim of verbal and physical abuse in the majority of the 141 games he played, particularly away games.

[hujsh]

Link is sending me to an article about Mason Cox?

[jeemak]

Link is sending me to an article about Mason Cox?

Weird. Not sure what happened with the Fox link, have updated via another source.

[bornadog]

Could be a another massive payout coming up. Things were pretty bad in the 80s and prior. eased off a bit in the 90s.

[jeemak]

If society was a racist sewer and its sporting competitions reflected that in the 80s, how far can accountability be levelled at the competitions for the racist behaviours of participants?

We didn't have a racial discrimination act until 1975, for context.

[hujsh]

If society was a racist sewer and its sporting competitions reflected that in the 80s, how far can accountability be levelled at the competitions for the racist behaviours of participants?

I guess I'd just hope there's a consistent standard applied across the board. If the AFL can be sued then I'd want companies and other organisations from the same era to face the same consequences.

[SonofScray]

Glad to see that fraud Sheedy get called out.

[EasternWest]

Top bloke Kevin Sheedy would never.

[Happy Days]

Kevin Sheedy is actually the least racist. Can’t wait to see what marquee game he comes up with in response to this.

[mjp]

I only played at state level (and in the 90's not the 80's) but the level of racism was appalling.

I'm not sure where this goes but I am 100% sure the players have a case.

[angelopetraglia]

Where does it stop or start though? What about all the people racially abused just sitting in the stands in the 70s and 80s? Do they have a claim against the AFL too? Where does it stop?

It is a very slippery slope when you start judging history from todays moral standards.

[Mofra]

The Robbie Muir article from the last year or so would indicate it was very widespread. I'd be very surprised if just two teams were the subject to the final class action.

Tony Shaw at least had the balls to publicly admit to and apologize for his comments.

[bornadog]

Glad to see that fraud Sheedy get called out.

Apparently he admitted to one of the Krakauer brothers that as a tactic he got the players to racially vilify them in order to put them off their game. What a prick

[Bullies]

Where does it stop or start though? What about all the people racially abused just sitting in the stands in the 70s and 80s? Do they have a claim against the AFL too? Where does it stop?

It is a very slippery slope when you start judging history from todays moral standards. Agree. Depending on the outcome this could open the floodgates for other organisations to be sued and the impact could be huge with a lot of clubs/sporting organisations/businesses bankrupted.

[angelopetraglia]

In a recent Rest is History podcast, they talked about the punishment Carthage handed out to mercenaries who had mutinied to send an example to others (after showing leniency was not having the desired outcome, they changed tactics). They cut their hands off, castrated them, had their legs broken, threw them into a pit and buried them alive. There is sending messages and there is sending messages. From that point on, any prisoners taken by Carthage were trampled to death by elephants. I was wincing when hearing this and thinking that these people were crazy and barbaric. Crazy people. Crazy times.

However, throughout the series, the hosts Dominic and Tom do a good job in reminding us, that you can't judge figures from history using today's standards. You need to judge them using the standards of their time and what they believed at the time. Otherwise, no one from history will stand up to any scrutiny.

[Grantysghost]

In a recent Rest is History podcast, they talked about the punishment Carthage handed out to mercenaries who had mutinied to send an example to others (after showing leniency was not having the desired outcome, they changed tactics). They cut their hands off, castrated them, had their legs broken, threw them into a pit and buried them alive. There is sending messages and there is sending messages. From that point on, any prisoners taken by Carthage were trampled to death by elephants. I was wincing when hearing this and thinking that these people were crazy and barbaric. Crazy people. Crazy times.

However, throughout the series, the hosts Dominic and Tom do a good job in reminding us, that you can't judge figures from history using today's standards. You need to judge them using the standards of their time and what they believed at the time. Otherwise, no one from history will stand up to any scrutiny.
They sacrificed the children of nobles in fire pits as an offering to the gods.

[EasternWest]

Where does it stop or start though? What about all the people racially abused just sitting in the stands in the 70s and 80s? Do they have a claim against the AFL too? Where does it stop?

It is a very slippery slope when you start judging history from todays moral standards.


In a recent Rest is History podcast, they talked about the punishment Carthage handed out to mercenaries who had mutinied to send an example to others (after showing leniency was not having the desired outcome, they changed tactics). They cut their hands off, castrated them, had their legs broken, threw them into a pit and buried them alive. There is sending messages and there is sending messages. From that point on, any prisoners taken by Carthage were trampled to death by elephants. I was wincing when hearing this and thinking that these people were crazy and barbaric. Crazy people. Crazy times.

However, throughout the series, the hosts Dominic and Tom do a good job in reminding us, that you can't judge figures from history using today's standards. You need to judge them using the standards of their time and what they believed at the time. Otherwise, no one from history will stand up to any scrutiny.

I'm pretty ok with racists getting their comeuppance.

[chef]

I'm pretty ok with racists getting their comeuppance.

Feel the same, they are still racists at heart but they just need to hide it better nowadays.

[angelopetraglia]

I'm pretty ok with racists getting their comeuppance.

Basically, almost the entire population of Australia is in trouble then. The White Australia Policy only ended just after WWII.

People like my grandparents, who were Italian were not considered white. Anglo Saxon or no entry for you.

[EasternWest]

Basically, almost the entire population of Australia is in trouble then. The White Australia Policy only ended just after WWII.

People like my grandparents, who were Italian were not considered white. Anglo Saxon or no entry for you.

This is a weird hill to die on but I suppose at least up there you're an easy target.

[angelopetraglia]

This is a weird hill to die on but I suppose at least up there you're an easy target.


My point is, it was a different time. I?m not judging 1940s Australia through a moral lens of 2020. I don?t think anyone should.

That is my point. Everything will be basically canceled in our entire history if we start to do that.

Now. The 1980s may be too close to say it was too long ago. Who knows. But you have to draw a line somewhere.

[Happy Days]

Bruh

[Grantysghost]

My point is, it was a different time. I?m not judging 1940s Australia through a moral lens of 2020. I don?t think anyone should.

That is my point. Everything will be basically canceled in our entire history if we start to do that.

Now. The 1980s may be too close to say it was too long ago. Who knows. But you have to draw a line somewhere.
Both things can be true i think.

Wow your grandparents were pioneers AP. Imagine going through the European war and then making a new life in the hope it will be better for future generations 10,000 miles away.

[EasternWest]

My point is, it was a different time. I?m not judging 1940s Australia through a moral lens of 2020. I don?t think anyone should.

That is my point. Everything will be basically canceled in our entire history if we start to do that.

Now. The 1980s may be too close to say it was too long ago. Who knows. But you have to draw a line somewhere.

Cancelled. It was always coming.

[angelopetraglia]

Cancelled. It was always coming.

Well. I think that is unfair. I have a view on how far back you can go in history to take action or be liable.

My thoughts on any type of racism have been incredibly clear over a long period of time on this forum.

[angelopetraglia]

Both things can be true i think.

Wow your grandparents were pioneers AP. Imagine going through the European war and then making a new life in the hope it will be better for future generations 10,000 miles away.

It is something I contemplate often. But it is the story of many Australians. Today and going back many generations. Lots of sacrifices to create a better life for their families.

My Grandfather came to Australia in 1949. Four years before my mother, her sibilings and my grandmother came to Australia. My mother was born after he left. My Grandfather didn't see my Mum until she was four. He got on a boat, sailed to the other side of the world where he only knew a few people, had zero money, didn't speak the language and had almost no communication with his family back home. He went to work to save some money and see if it was possible to bring his family to Australia for a better life. I often think how bad things must have been in Italy post WWII for so many people to take this path. It wasn't an easy path.

My mum arrived when she was four. They did create a much better life for themeselves and the next generation and the one after. My Grandfather lived a full life and passed when he was 94. My Grandmother is still alive. She will turn 102 in a few months time. She has eight Grandchildren and thirteen Great Grandchildren.

It is amazing the opportunities this country created and has given to countless migrants going back hundreds of years.

[jeemak]

In a recent Rest is History podcast, they talked about the punishment Carthage handed out to mercenaries who had mutinied to send an example to others (after showing leniency was not having the desired outcome, they changed tactics). They cut their hands off, castrated them, had their legs broken, threw them into a pit and buried them alive. There is sending messages and there is sending messages. From that point on, any prisoners taken by Carthage were trampled to death by elephants. I was wincing when hearing this and thinking that these people were crazy and barbaric. Crazy people. Crazy times.

However, throughout the series, the hosts Dominic and Tom do a good job in reminding us, that you can't judge figures from history using today's standards. You need to judge them using the standards of their time and what they believed at the time. Otherwise, no one from history will stand up to any scrutiny.

Is this an erotic podcast?

[Grantysghost]

Is this an erotic podcast?
Depends on how much you love history.... Or herstory

[jeemak]

Going back to my earlier post, if the AFL/ VFL was just a reflection of society at the time, which was a reflection of the political will of the time, which was a reflection of the will of the people at the time, how much culpability exists?

Racists should get their comeuppance, sure, it's something I encourage, but the very racists in question won't be targeted - the league will financially and I don't know if that's the best place to start if the the league was just a standard representation of the bulk of society.

All of this would be a lot easier if we all just admitted we were racist, and still are in a lot of ways. It would definitely take the heat out of things......and maybe start the process of reconciliation.

I was a terrible racist (by what I view as a standard) until my early to mid-teens. In my mind it wasn't malicious, it was just how I fitted in until I matured and earned/ developed different perspectives. I carry some shame because of it, but more so I am proud to have matured and to have developed a different perspective and I feel good about that. Just be honest people. It'll help heal a lot of hurt.

[EasternWest]

Well. I think that is unfair. I have a view on how far back you can go in history to take action or be liable.

My thoughts on any type of racism have been incredibly clear over a long period of time on this forum.

I just can't take anyone seriously that uses the term "cancelled" unironically. It devalues anything said around it.

The war on "cancel culture" became the holy cause of the right, all the while the screamed like babies and are the most easily triggered snowflakes in the universe.

You wanna have a serious conversation I'm down for it. You wanna trot out Trumpist catch cries I'm out.

[hujsh]

I think in the same way we sometimes lionize figures of the past beyond their reality, we also sometimes ascribe worse beliefs or morals to the general public of the past and then use that fictitious morality to excuse condemnable behaviour.

Was everyone in the 70s actually super cool with racism? Or was it just somewhat common and people did on some level know better/had every opportunity to know better? It's not like it's amazingly complicated and if you're calling an Aboriginal footballer a slur (or maybe worse IDK the spcifics) because you think it'll help win a silly game, you understand it's something serious enough that it can upset them and distract them from the game.

I don't have any facts here but it smells of apologia similar to what people like Christopher Columbus get from certain types.

[angelopetraglia]

Carlton chief executive Brian Cook says the AFL needs to be concerned about the class action brought against the league by ex-North Melbourne player Phil Krakouer for its alleged failure to protect players from racial abuse on the field. https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-must-be-concerned-about-racism-class-action-says-cook-20240311-p5fbdt.html

[Grantysghost]

I think in the same way we sometimes lionize figures of the past beyond their reality, we also sometimes ascribe worse beliefs or morals to the general public of the past and then use that fictitious morality to excuse condemnable behaviour.

Was everyone in the 70s actually super cool with racism? Or was it just somewhat common and people did on some level know better/had every opportunity to know better? It's not like it's amazingly complicated and if you're calling an Aboriginal footballer a slur (or maybe worse IDK the spcifics) because you think it'll help win a silly game, you understand it's something serious enough that it can upset them and distract them from the game.

I don't have any facts here but it smells of apologia similar to what people like Christopher Columbus get from certain types.
Are there any figures from history you like or was everyone just bad until like 10 years ago?

[jeemak]

I just can't take anyone seriously that uses the term "cancelled" unironically. It devalues anything said around it.

The war on "cancel culture" became the holy cause of the right, all the while the screamed like babies and are the most easily triggered snowflakes in the universe.

You wanna have a serious conversation I'm down for it. You wanna trot out Trumpist catch cries I'm out.

Isn't snowflake another one of those words.......? :)

[Grantysghost]

Can we cancel EW and all the whinging lefties ;)

I hate all the left and right bs it just pigeon holes and stifles discussion with preconception.

You said cancel you love Trump!

You like history's great explorers you agree with the execution of natives and genocide!

You've named your children Adolf, have a Hitler mo and fly the swastika outside your house! Nazi!

[EasternWest]

Isn't snowflake another one of those words.......? :)

I never said anyone should ever take me seriously either.

[hujsh]

Are there any figures from history you like or was everyone just bad until like 10 years ago?

You like Columbus? :confused:

John Brown was cool

[hujsh]

Can we cancel EW and all the whinging lefties ;)

I hate all the left and right bs it just pigeon holes and stifles discussion with preconception.

You said cancel you love Trump!

You like history's great explorers you agree with the execution of natives and genocide!

You've named your children Adolf, have a Hitler mo and fly the swastika outside your house! Nazi!

I actually did type something about how everyone both cries about and engages in cancel cultures but didn't post it.

That said don't fool yourself into thinking being centrist is any better than being 'left or right'. It's still a position and an ideology.



You like history's great explorers you agree with the execution of natives and genocide!



That's... a bold extrapolation. I guess you can like Columbus if you want. Maybe you're a sailing buff. Worth knowing that even his contemporaries found him to be cruel and brutal if you want to profess your admiration though.

[Grantysghost]

You like Columbus? :confused:

John Brown was cool

I think im just interested in things from an academic point of view rather than trying to understand the justified emotion and inhumanity of the day... He actually thought he'd found a shortcut to India haha. Hence : Indians.

There's a part of me that admires the cahoney's on these guys to sail into the unknown and find their fortune for the pope, I don't even think he was a seafaring type.
Clearly though the affect on the natives was devastating including the old world diseases: horrid.

No one with any humanity thinks the treatment was anything but abhorrent, im just not sure if such a clash of cultures could have ever been peaceful.
I think it's ok to say Cook for eg was a pretty amazing explorer and enabler of important scientific expeditions (transit of venus) on one hand and be horrified with the outcomes for the native people and totally support and understand that pain.

Wow John Brown was cool, thanks for that.

[hujsh]

I think im just interested in things from an academic point of view rather than trying to understand the justified emotion and inhumanity of the day... He actually thought he'd found a shortcut to India haha. Hence : Indians.

There's a part of me that admires the cahoney's on these guys to sail into the unknown and find their fortune for the pope, I don't even think he was a seafaring type.
Clearly though the affect on the natives was devastating including the old world diseases: horrid.

No one with any humanity thinks the treatment was anything but abhorrent, im just not sure if such a clash of cultures could have ever been peaceful.
I think it's ok to say Cook for eg was a pretty amazing explorer and enabler of important scientific expeditions (transit of venus) on one hand and be horrified with the outcomes for the native people and totally support and understand that pain.

Wow John Brown was cool, thanks for that.

Oh he was sailing from a young age. Shipwrecked at 14. I might be mistaken but I believe he was a talented sailor (an intuitive understanding of certain things) but had a lot of other things he was decidedly poor at.

He was meant to be living peacefully and introducing Christianity to the native people but IIRC (again) went out of his way to not do that. I think he's a great example (along with Robert E. Lee) of someone that was not just a bad person by the modern view, but based on accounts of the time as well.

We tend to romanticize figures who were prominent in history, we want to believe the best of people but sometimes I think that leads to excusing the things they did wrong and diminishing our own view of human morality. I think we're capable of more than we give ourselves credit for, but the conditions we find ourselves in now leads us to false conclusions about the nature of people.

I think it's fine BTW to look back on people who were not 'good people' and still admire qualities or achievements of theirs. Hell Western morality was hugely influenced by people we'd consider pedophiles now. I can still enjoy the writings of Aristotle and reuse analogies like the shadows in the cave.

[angelopetraglia]

Columbus did things that the people of his time thought were abhorrent. The Spanish rulers of the time were shocked at some of his conduct. But even if he was saintly for his time, his role in colonisation will always mean that he will be judged harshly. However, someone was going to eventually discover the new world and regardless of who it was, it was most probably going to end in a smilar way. (The recent backlash against Columbus is also due to the attempt to eulogise him for the benefit of non Anglo Saxon Americans searching for their own founding father in the 20th century.)

Cook for all intennt and purposes was a man who had empathy and high morals for his time. He was a very different figure to Columbus. However, he is cast with a very similar brush. As we have seen in recent times with the well documented destuction of his statue.

History is complicated and nuanced. Revisionist history narratives have always been used and manipulated for poliitcal advantage. Just look at our most recent revisionist history example with Putin and his long dialogue going back to the 9th century why Ukraine is part of Russia.

[Grantysghost]

Oh he was sailing from a young age. Shipwrecked at 14. I might be mistaken but I believe he was a talented sailor (an intuitive understanding of certain things) but had a lot of other things he was decidedly poor at.

He was meant to be living peacefully and introducing Christianity to the native people but IIRC (again) went out of his way to not do that. I think he's a great example (along with Robert E. Lee) of someone that was not just a bad person by the modern view, but based on accounts of the time as well.

We tend to romanticize figures who were prominent in history, we want to believe the best of people but sometimes I think that leads to excusing the things they did wrong and diminishing our own view of human morality. I think we're capable of more than we give ourselves credit for, but the conditions we find ourselves in now leads us to false conclusions about the nature of people.

I think it's fine BTW to look back on people who were not 'good people' and still admire qualities or achievements of theirs. Hell Western morality was hugely influenced by people we'd consider pedophiles now. I can still enjoy the writings of Aristotle and reuse analogies like the shadows in the cave.
Spot on Hujsh.

Re Columbus i'd have to listen to the series again there was some reason i thought he was more an entrepreneur type than a classical seafarer.

[Rocket Science]

What would be really ace - among other forms of redress - is if the class action complainants leveraged their case to encourage the AFEL to take more fulsome ownership of the issue in the present day in more serious and sincere ways rather than the performative self service and evasion they're so very good at.

[EasternWest]

What would be really ace - among other forms of redress - is if the class action complainants leveraged their case to encourage the AFEL to take more fulsome ownership of the issue in the present day in more serious and sincere ways rather than the performative self service and evasion they're so very good at.

https://i.postimg.cc/FKsnn8Gk/ray-liotta-laughing.gif (https://postimages.org/)

[Grantysghost]

https://i.postimg.cc/FKsnn8Gk/ray-liotta-laughing.gif (https://postimages.org/)
Ray's legacy is that gif

[angelopetraglia]

Ray's legacy is that gif

What do you mean I?m funny?

[EasternWest]

Ray's legacy is that gif

https://i.postimg.cc/bJHRPMh2/images-16.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Am I a joke to you?

[Happy Days]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gtawiki/images/a/ae/TommyVercetti-GTAVC.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220618090315
Excuse you.

[Happy Days]

Omg how can I still not do this it’s been 16 years

[hujsh]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gtawiki/images/a/ae/TommyVercetti-GTAVC.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220618090315
Excuse you.

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1429&d=1710198016

[Sedat]

People like my grandparents, who were Italian were not considered white. Anglo Saxon or no entry for you.
Wogs (and Jews) don't count Angelo, you should know that. All that vile racism we copped growing up (and our parents/grandparents copped even worse before us) is not part of the discussion anymore because we never, ever accepted perennial victimhood. And wogs don't suffer fabricated guilt for our cultural heritage, of which we are fiercely proud. Same goes for the SE Asian migrants of the late 70's/80's, who were far too hard-working and high-achieving to now be part of the victimhood discussion circa 2024 - bit hard to be a victim when you are too busy being a successful heart surgeon.

Maybe I've been doing it all wrong for all these years - instead of dating Turkish, German and Italian women in my adult life, I should have demanded historical reparations from them all for their countrymen invading my family's birthplace in Greece. Then I could have gotten on the lucrative victimhood gravy train.

Applying the standards of previous generations to 2024 is not going to help anyone, least of all the aggrieved people who received the abuse in those previous generations - it most certainly is not going to help those communities in remote areas live a better life. This is all silly IMO - call me radical, but I would rather see violent criminals today being punished for what they do, rather than stupid people being punished for what they said 40+ years ago.

IMO, this all proves my point (that I have articulated previously) that racism in 2024 is on life-support in this country (and has been for well over 20 years), and is only being perpetuated by those who profit from dividing an otherwise peaceful and decidedly non-racist society in 2024 compared to previous generations - having to dredge some racist filth said in the 1980's into a class action in 2024 is all the proof you need.

Ultimately, this is what happens when you choose to judge people solely on their immutable birth characteristics and not on their individual actions and behaviours. It also perpetuates the bigotry of low expectations, which is a favourite of the white guilt crowd (hello Andy Maher, RoCo) who live in a deranged, narcissistic world of the saviour complex - for me personally, this attitude is one of the most gross aspects of the social media age in which we currently live, and I do everything possible to block this cancer out completely.

[hujsh]

Wogs (and Jews) don't count Angelo, you should know that. All that vile racism we copped growing up (and our parents/grandparents copped even worse before us) is not part of the discussion anymore because we never, ever accepted perennial victimhood. And wogs don't suffer fabricated guilt for our cultural heritage, of which we are fiercely proud. Same goes for the SE Asian migrants of the late 70's/80's, who were far too hard-working and high-achieving to now be part of the victimhood discussion circa 2024 - bit hard to be a victim when you are too busy being a successful heart surgeon.

Maybe I've been doing it all wrong for all these years - instead of dating Turkish, German and Italian women in my adult life, I should have demanded historical reparations from them all for their countrymen invading my family's birthplace in Greece. Then I could have gotten on the lucrative victimhood gravy train.

Applying the standards of previous generations to 2024 is not going to help anyone, least of all the aggrieved people who received the abuse in those previous generations - it most certainly is not going to help those communities in remote areas live a better life. This is all silly IMO - call be radical, but I would rather see violent criminals today being punished for what they do, rather than stupid people being punished for what they said 40+ years ago.

IMO, this all proves my point (that I have articulated previously) that racism in 2024 is on life-support in this country (and has been for well over 20 years), and is only being perpetuated by those who profit from dividing an otherwise peaceful and decidedly non-racist society in 2024 compared to previous generations - having to dredge some racist filth said in the 1980's into a class action in 2024 is all the proof you need.

Ultimately, this is what happens when you choose to judge people solely on their immutable birth characteristics and not on their individual actions and behaviours. It also perpetuates the bigotry of low expectations, which is a favourite of the white guilt crowd (hello Andy Maher, RoCo) who live in a deranged, narcissistic world of the saviour complex - for me personally, this attitude is one of the most gross aspects of the social media age in which we currently live, and I do everything possible to block this cancer out completely.

LOL

Sure man. Other groups just 'accept victimhood'. Pretty much the whole thing can be simplified to 'they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. If only it were that simple and easy.

[Grantysghost]

It also perpetuates the bigotry of low expectations, which is a favourite of the white guilt crowd (hello Andy Maher, RoCo) who live in a deranged, narcissistic world of the saviour complex - for me personally, this attitude is one of the most gross aspects of the social media age in which we currently live, and I do everything possible to block this cancer out completely.

Wait, Sedat; now bear with me here it's going to sound obtuse: Are you saying we dont have to feel bad if we obstain from vicariously gargling the rage elixir and by feeling confused by a Malcolm Gladwell podcast?! *insert shocked gif*

Funny, been reading about the Cuban Missile Crisis in a great book by Max Hastings.

Castro - the man of the workers was raised in a decidely bourgeoisie family, receiving lavish gifts (oh my god property!), going to good schools, travelling etc.
Humans are human, they gonna human in perpituity.

I find Roco as draining as Rita Panihi. Equally horrendous.

[Grantysghost]

LOL

Sure man. Other groups just 'accept victimhood'. Pretty much the whole thing can be simplified to 'they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. If only it were that simple and easy.
Yes not sure i agree with Sedat on that front. I get the sentiment, and growing up with a Maltese uncle I was witness to the accepted casual racism (little wog) that was part of his everyday life.
He did get on with it, and gave as good as he got, however i can't imagine it was something he wanted to happen if he had a choice. Not accepting it shows strength imo.

[hujsh]

Yes not sure i agree with Sedat on that front. I get the sentiment, and growing up with a Maltese uncle I was witness to the accepted casual racism (little wog) that was part of his everyday life.
He did get on with it, and gave as good as he got, however i can't imagine it was something he wanted to happen if he had a choice. Not accepting it shows strength imo.

Yeah I don't diminish that racism by any measure. The thing with whiteness though it's more about exclusion than skin colour. Over time more groups get brought under that umbrella to maintain a demographic majority (or close to it). It's why in the US Latios are now starting to consider themselves white as well, especially if they're white passing. Same as what happened with Irish, Italians, hell even Germans weren't considered 'white' by the likes of Benjamin Franklin (they were too 'swarthy').

[Sedat]

LOL

Sure man. Other groups just 'accept victimhood'. Pretty much the whole thing can be simplified to 'they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. If only it were that simple and easy.
Are you insinuating with the bolded comment that individuals in other groups are incapable of making a better life for themselves and their family through personal agency and accountability in this country - respectfully, I could not disagree more. I put no ceiling on the ability of any human being to achieve greatness, nor do I put a floor on any human being to perpetuate evil. IMO the only way a free society can function properly is when people are judged solely on their personal actions and behaviour, and that their personal birth characteristics are completely irrelevant in making said judgement.

Specific to this class action, what is the actual end game? It's not about education and learning - that battle was effectively won 30 years ago with the brave actions of Michael Long and Nicky Winmar, actions that did not require legal recourse to make meaningful and truly impactful positive societal change on racism. Has everybody since then come along for the ride? Of course not, you cannot legislate to 100% eliminate stupidity. But has the overwhelming percentage of the general population made the necessary changes in behaviour since then to combat racism? Undeniably yes, and I will gladly die on that hill. Ultimately the legal system will judge whether or not the players in this class action were denied their livelihood and are eligible to receive compensation. I wish those involved well and they deserve the right to pursue whatever actions they believe they should. Even if the end game is a thinly disguised cash grab, that's their right as well - inept politicians and big corporations conduct bastardry and thievery against all of us on a grand scale daily, which irks me far more than anything else.


Humans are human, they gonna human in perpituity.
Well, yes. Doesn't matter what colour they are, their religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc.. There are great humans, shit humans and everything else in between - it has always been thus, and it will always continue to be.



Yeah I don't diminish that racism by any measure. The thing with whiteness though it's more about exclusion than skin colour. Over time more groups get brought under that umbrella to maintain a demographic majority (or close to it). It's why in the US Latios are now starting to consider themselves white as well, especially if they're white passing. Same as what happened with Irish, Italians, hell even Germans weren't considered 'white' by the likes of Benjamin Franklin (they were too 'swarthy').
Sorry hujsh, but I disagree completely with this assertion as well. What is 'whiteness' anyway? Is it a state of mind, or are we actually supposed to be judging everyone/everything based on colour only? If you have a predilection for yacht rock and popped Polo Ralph Lauren collars, does that make you 'white' regardless of your skin colour? What hue is considered acceptable whiteness/privilege, and what shade automatically puts you in the victim basket? I find the whole revisionist approach to redefining racism very distasteful and disingenuous. The reality is that in human history, all races and religions have been both victims and perpetrators at some point in time. Applying previous historical standards to today completely misses the point of evolution, learning and understanding. To me personally, it is utterly pointless to do so.

[mjp]

IMO, this all proves my point (that I have articulated previously) that racism in 2024 is on life-support in this country (and has been for well over 20 years), and is only being perpetuated by those who profit from dividing an otherwise peaceful and decidedly non-racist society in 2024 compared to previous generations - having to dredge some racist filth said in the 1980's into a class action in 2024 is all the proof you need.


Come to WA some time!

[hujsh]

Are you insinuating with the bolded comment that individuals in other groups are incapable of making a better life for themselves and their family through personal agency and accountability in this country - respectfully, I could not disagree more. I put no ceiling on the ability of any human being to achieve greatness, nor do I put a floor on any human being to perpetuate evil. IMO the only way a free society can function properly is when people are judged solely on their personal actions and behaviour, and that their personal birth characteristics are completely irrelevant in making said judgement.


Personal accountability can only work on a personal level. You can't just expect 'accountability' to overcome systemic racism. Anyone that actually cares about improving outcomes for people experiencing generational, systemic disadvantages such as poverty, alcoholism, incarceration needs to look at that. Dismissing it all as 'accepting victimhood' because 'I put no ceiling on the ability of any human being to achieve greatness' is just dismissing the issue from your mind. It's the easy way out because all the responsibility is on 'those groups' and none is on 'our society'. It's the old 'I don't see race bit Colbert used to do on the Colbert Report.



Sorry hujsh, but I disagree completely with this assertion as well. What is 'whiteness' anyway? Is it a state of mind, or are we actually supposed to be judging everyone/everything based on colour only? If you have a predilection for yacht rock and popped Polo Ralph Lauren collars, does that make you 'white' regardless of your skin colour? What hue is considered acceptable whiteness/privilege, and what shade automatically puts you in the victim basket? I find the whole revisionist approach to redefining racism very distasteful and disingenuous. The reality is that in human history, all races and religions have been both victims and perpetrators at some point in time. Applying previous historical standards to today completely misses the point of evolution, learning and understanding. To me personally, it is utterly pointless to do so.

Whiteness is a construct initially meant to justify slavery and colonisation. Now it's just about defining 'in-groups' and 'out-groups'. It's flexible, hence why I mentioned German, Italian and Irish integration into whiteness. I even literally said
The thing with whiteness though it's more about exclusion than skin colour.
so it kind of feels like I've already addressed your talking points. One thing I'll add though is usually becoming 'white' in places like the US and Aus means abandoning your actual culture. Like Germans leaving behind their heritage to become generic 'Americans' around the time of WW1 (and at other points in time for other reasons)



Is it a state of mind, or are we actually supposed to be judging everyone/everything based on colour only?
In actual life just be normal. On a systemic level try to address inequality. Maybe even hold racists accountable occasionally. Crazy lefty stuff right?

[josie]

Come to WA some time!

Agree. Racism is unfortunately alive & well including in Melbourne & Vic. It?s not as overt as it used to be but it?s there alright.

[Grantysghost]

Come to WA some time!

Well, it is still 1973 there though right? :cool:

[Sedat]

Agree. Racism is unfortunately alive & well including in Melbourne & Vic. It?s not as overt as it used to be but it?s there alright.
It's certainly alive and well in the media/political class, which is their modus operandi to amplify the dying embers of it to create as much artificial combustion in order for society to consume more of their shit content. You cannot hate the media/political class enough - there is no bigger enemy of the people in modern society IMO.

In everyday work/life, I haven't personally encountered it or seen it in well over 30 years, whereas in my first 20 years racism was a regular occurrence (both receiving it and observing it happening). I'm more than happy to be an island on this thread if most others believe that Australia is as bad a racist backwater as it was 40+ years ago. Sure seems to be a lot of widely disparate cultures and ethnicities who are continuing to strive to make Australia home today - quite the contrast to many non-western countries who have absolutely zero tolerance to immigration of any kind that is not "their own kind".

[Grantysghost]

It's certainly alive and well in the media/political class, which is their modus operandi to amplify the dying embers of it to create as much artificial combustion in order for society to consume more of their shit content. You cannot hate the media/political class enough - there is no bigger enemy of the people in modern society IMO.

In everyday work/life, I haven't personally encountered it or seen it in well over 30 years, whereas in my first 20 years racism was a near daily occurrence (both receiving it and observing it happening). I'm more than happy to be an island on this thread if most others believe that Australia is as bad a racist backwater as it was 40+ years ago. Sure seems to be a lot of widely disparate cultures and ethnicities who are continuing to strive to make Australia home today - quite the contrast to many non-western countries who have absolutely zero tolerance to immigration of any kind that is not "their own kind".

You make some very interesting points.

I only question whether it's been forced underground rather than massively reduced? Usually if that's the case you will see extreme fringe groups bubbling up and there haven't been too many (a few crazy Nazis).

I too haven't seen or heard anything for many years personally and I live in a very multicultural suburb. It's just the norm for me to see and engage with all of the wonderful cultures we have here in Melbourne daily (especially in the westside the bestside).

[bornadog]

It's certainly alive and well in the media/political class, which is their modus operandi to amplify the dying embers of it to create as much artificial combustion in order for society to consume more of their shit content. You cannot hate the media/political class enough - there is no bigger enemy of the people in modern society IMO.

In everyday work/life, I haven't personally encountered it or seen it in well over 30 years, whereas in my first 20 years racism was a regular occurrence (both receiving it and observing it happening). I'm more than happy to be an island on this thread if most others believe that Australia is as bad a racist backwater as it was 40+ years ago. Sure seems to be a lot of widely disparate cultures and ethnicities who are continuing to strive to make Australia home today - quite the contrast to many non-western countries who have absolutely zero tolerance to immigration of any kind that is not "their own kind".


You make some very interesting points.

I only question whether it's been forced underground rather than massively reduced? Usually if that's the case you will see extreme fringe groups bubbling up and there haven't been too many (a few crazy Nazis).

I too haven't seen or heard anything for many years personally and I live in a very multicultural suburb. It's just the norm for me to see and engage with all of the wonderful cultures we have here in Melbourne daily (especially in the westside the bestside).

I agree with all the points made by Sedat and yourself GG, but I fear the groups copping it at the moment are people of African Decent, but fear Indigenous people still cop it a bit as well. I think it is a bit underground, but it does exist.

[hujsh]

I agree with all the points made by Sedat and yourself GG, but I fear the groups copping it at the moment are people of African Decent, but fear Indigenous people still cop it a bit as well. I think it is a bit underground, but it does exist.

I don't think it's underground, look at the youth incarceration rates for Indigenous kids. I always remember my cousin, could have gone to jail for arson or robbery, got off with community service (didn't even do it) but now has a decent job and family. Doubt he'd have got off (twice) if he didn't come from the background he did, with all that entails. Didn't end up doing any harm afterwards either. Not sure those Indigenous kids are getting the same chances he did.

[jeemak]

Sorry hujsh, but I disagree completely with this assertion as well. What is 'whiteness' anyway? Is it a state of mind, or are we actually supposed to be judging everyone/everything based on colour only? If you have a predilection for yacht rock and popped Polo Ralph Lauren collars, does that make you 'white' regardless of your skin colour? What hue is considered acceptable whiteness/privilege, and what shade automatically puts you in the victim basket? I find the whole revisionist approach to redefining racism very distasteful and disingenuous. The reality is that in human history, all races and religions have been both victims and perpetrators at some point in time. Applying previous historical standards to today completely misses the point of evolution, learning and understanding. To me personally, it is utterly pointless to do so.

How dare you put these two things together and imply an association, you animal.*

*Try and guess if it's yacht rock or polos I like....

[jeemak]

It's certainly alive and well in the media/political class, which is their modus operandi to amplify the dying embers of it to create as much artificial combustion in order for society to consume more of their shit content. You cannot hate the media/political class enough - there is no bigger enemy of the people in modern society IMO.

In everyday work/life, I haven't personally encountered it or seen it in well over 30 years, whereas in my first 20 years racism was a regular occurrence (both receiving it and observing it happening). I'm more than happy to be an island on this thread if most others believe that Australia is as bad a racist backwater as it was 40+ years ago. Sure seems to be a lot of widely disparate cultures and ethnicities who are continuing to strive to make Australia home today - quite the contrast to many non-western countries who have absolutely zero tolerance to immigration of any kind that is not "their own kind".

I don't know where you've been looking mate but I can assure you in the factories and despatch areas of manufacturing/ supply chain Australia it is very much alive and well.

It's just that whoever it was on the end of it previously are now joining in with the traditional racists and piling onto the newcomers.

[Sedat]

*Try and guess if it's yacht rock or polos I like....
Like me, I suspect you have Robbie Dupree and Player in your Spotify playlist ;)

[Sedat]

I don't know where you've been looking mate but I can assure you in the factories and despatch areas of manufacturing/ supply chain Australia it is very much alive and well.
I can only go by my lived experience in my industry of work and in my daily community interactions the last 25 odd years - there has been virtually no racism (or homophobia or sexism either) in that time. It just isn't a thing and hasn't been for a generation, which is in stark contrast to my primary and high school years as the child of European migrants in an Anglo Saxon dominated country town. Funnily enough, I still love my childhood and have nothing but fond memories - my perspective only, but focusing on negative events that took place so long ago is a waste of energy and doesn't actually achieve anything. As I said previously, I wish these players luck in their class action - if they feel this course of action is necessary to make their lives better, go for it.


It's just that whoever it was on the end of it previously are now joining in with the traditional racists and piling onto the newcomers.
Hmm, not sure about this Jee. Perhaps those European/Middle Eastern communities that fled violent and unsafe environments post WW2, and SE Asian communities that fled the violence and chaos in Vietnam/Cambodia in the 1970's, have a deep sense of gratitude and respect for their adopted homeland that brought them in and gave them the opportunity for a better life for their families, despite the racism they were subjected to when they arrived. A safe, prosperous and peaceful country to raise a family is something that should never be taken for granted, which is all anybody really wants in the end.

Stupid/corrupt politicians (aided by their media mouthpieces) that endeavour to make this country less safe, less prosperous, less peaceful and more divided (for the citizens they are duty-bound to represent the best interests of) with their idiotic decisions and taxpayer largesse are the real enemy.

[hujsh]

I can only go by my lived experience in my industry of work and in my daily community interactions the last 25 odd years - there has been virtually no racism (or homophobia or sexism either) in that time. It just isn't a thing and hasn't been for a generation, which is in stark contrast to my primary and high school years as the child of European migrants in an Anglo Saxon dominated country town. Funnily enough, I still love my childhood and have nothing but fond memories - my perspective only, but focusing on negative events that took place so long ago is a waste of energy and doesn't actually achieve anything. As I said previously, I wish these players luck in their class action - if they feel this course of action is necessary to make their lives better, go for it.


Hmm, not sure about this Jee. Perhaps those European/Middle Eastern communities that fled violent and unsafe environments post WW2, and SE Asian communities that fled the violence and chaos in Vietnam/Cambodia in the 1970's, have a deep sense of gratitude and respect for their adopted homeland that brought them in and gave them the opportunity for a better life for their families, despite the racism they were subjected to when they arrived. A safe, prosperous and peaceful country to raise a family is something that should never be taken for granted, which is all anybody really wants in the end.

Stupid/corrupt politicians (aided by their media mouthpieces) that endeavour to make this country less safe, less prosperous, less peaceful and more divided (for the citizens they are duty-bound to represent the best interests of) with their idiotic decisions and taxpayer largesse are the real enemy.

You can see how that might be a blind spot right?

[Sedat]

You can see how that might be a blind spot right?
Work environments obviously differ, but daily community interactions a blind spot? Racism was everywhere and unchecked in common daily life in the 70/80's and it has been virtually eliminated the last 25 odd years - it is so jarring to hear it now that it is immediately called out. Going to the footy this century is a completely different experience to past eras. I can tell you the crowd environment was vastly different 30-40 years ago. The indigenous racism at the footy and in the crowds virtually stopped after Long and Winmar made their stands - of course there are examples that have occurred since then (eg: Goodes, Betts, JUH) but this crap was everywhere, every week and at every ground 40 years ago.

When you consider the massive increase in amplification of everything since the advent of social media, even with this amplification racism is nowhere near the level of 40+ years ago IMO. It has reduced to the extent that the definitions have been changed to suit a preconceived narrative (with the thinly disguised intention of continuing to divide us all into tribes), hence the political/media class create terms like casual racism and other monikers to redefine a problem that was largely under control.

You are free to hold your belief that Australia is still as racist as it was 40 years ago. I respectfully disagree and I suspect I'm in the minority on here. That's cool.

[hujsh]

Work environments obviously differ, but daily community interactions a blind spot? Racism was everywhere and unchecked in common daily life in the 70/80's and it has been virtually eliminated the last 25 odd years - it is so jarring to hear it now that it is immediately called out. Going to the footy this century is a completely different experience to past eras. I can tell you the crowd environment was vastly different 30-40 years ago. The indigenous racism at the footy and in the crowds virtually stopped after Long and Winmar made their stands - of course there are examples that have occurred since then (eg: Goodes, Betts, JUH) but this crap was everywhere, every week and at every ground 40 years ago.

When you consider the massive increase in amplification of everything since the advent of social media, even with this amplification racism is nowhere near the level of 40+ years ago IMO. It has reduced to the extent that the definitions have been changed to suit a preconceived narrative (with the thinly disguised intention of continuing to divide us all into tribes), hence the political/media class create terms like casual racism and other monikers to redefine a problem that was largely under control.

You are free to hold your belief that Australia is still as racist as it was 40 years ago. I respectfully disagree and I suspect I'm in the minority on here. That's cool.

That's always been your strawman Sedat. Most others are just saying it's not a non-issue merely because it's less visible or less prevalent now.

And yes, you in your daily community interactions as a white passing straight guy are far less likely to both encounter and notice racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. Relying only on your personal experience doesn't really cut it as disproving something like this. You can believe it, but it's not super convincing as evidence.

[bornadog]

You are free to hold your belief that Australia is still as racist as it was 40 years ago. I respectfully disagree and I suspect I'm in the minority on here. That's cool.

definitely people are more tolerant than they were 40 years ago - Australia has matured. Racism now is less prevalent than it was and those exhibiting racism tend to be the uneducated bogans.

My father who came to Australia in 1950, said he and his friends copped it a bit. He recalls going to matches in the 60s and Georgie Bissett being called a wog and all sorts of names. It was also rife in the 70s, 80s.

Happy that eventually AFL came down on this sort of behaviour, in fact read an article yesterday that 16 people received a life ban from AFL for being racists in 2023.

NRL player got 8 weeks only this week.

What sort of penalty should AFL players receive, given supporters can get a life ban?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Racism definitely still exists in Australia. It's just not as obvious as its no longer socially acceptable as it must have been previously. I wasn't around in the 70s or 80s to know what it was like but I've heard and read enough to get an idea.
I dealt with some as a kid growing up in the 90s and I would say a lot of it these days is more the "ignorant" kind rather than flat out abusive racism. A lot of the more "quiet" racism is from the older generations. I certainly haven't seen as much from the younger ones.

I know for sure that homophobia today is nowhere near the levels it was when I was in high school even in the 00s. Certain terms were used to insult anyone that are no longer acceptable/common. Just listen to some Eminem lyrics from songs that were hits. He'd be outcast today for such words.

Things have definitely changed for the better but 100% racism still exists. It's just expressed differently.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

That's always been your strawman Sedat. Most others are just saying it's not a non-issue merely because it's less visible or less prevalent now.

And yes, you in your daily community interactions as a white passing straight guy are far less likely to both encounter and notice racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. Relying only on your personal experience doesn't really cut it as disproving something like this. You can believe it, but it's not super convincing as evidence.

Oh yeah. If you're white you won't run into nearly as many racist encounters in the wild as you would if you were dark skinned, chinese or an Indian wearing a Sari or a Muslim wearing a hijab for example.

[Sedat]

And yes, you in your daily community interactions as a white passing straight guy are far less likely to both encounter and notice racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. Relying only on your personal experience doesn't really cut it as disproving something like this. You can believe it, but it's not super convincing as evidence.
I'm not quite as colour-obsessed as you appear to be. If I was, I would smile wryly to myself at the fact that I am a few shades darker than some high-profile govt-funded inner-city indigenous-identifying activists/politicians/celebrities, who somehow cannot seem to make $34 billion in annual taxpayer funding have any material impact whatsoever on bridging the gap for those remote indigenous communities that desperately need it, and yet these same activists/politicians/celebrities all seem to have incredibly lucrative personal property and investment portfolios and all live in exclusive communities and neighbourhoods that are decidedly lacking in multi-culturalism.

Not to mention there have been more than 1 million new arrivals into Australia in the last 18 months alone, from all manner of different religious backgrounds and ethnicities. Amazing that they would knowingly choose to come to such a hostile and racist country (although its not so amazing when the immigration intake of other countries is zero).

I wish everybody involved in this class action well and that they get what they need to put these historical grievances to bed. I'd much rather they get some cash/closure than the afore-mentioned activist grifters and charlatans.

[hujsh]

I'm not quite as colour-obsessed as you appear to be. If I was, I would smile wryly to myself at the fact that I am a few shades darker than most high-profile govt-funded inner-city indigenous-identifying activists/politicians/celebrities, who somehow cannot seem to make $34 billion in annual taxpayer funding have any material impact whatsoever on bridging the gap for those remote indigenous communities that desperately need it, and yet these same activists/politicians/celebrities all seem to have incredibly lucrative personal property and investment portfolios and all live in exclusive communities and neighbourhoods that are decidedly lacking in multi-culturalism.

Not to mention there have been more than 1 million new arrivals into Australia in the last 18 months alone, from all manner of different religious backgrounds and ethnicities. Amazing that they would knowingly choose to come to such a hostile and racist country.

I wish everybody involved in this class action well and that they get what they need to put these historical grievances to bed. I'd much rather they get some cash/closure than the afore-mentioned activist grifters and charlatans.

I'm glad to see you retained my earlier points so well

[Sedat]

I'm glad to see you retained my earlier points so well
When you call someone "white passing" (whatever that means) you are making an evaluation of an individual through nothing but a lens of colour. That is not how I live, and I personally think a person's immutable birth characteristics are some of the least interesting things about any individual.

It's getting a bit circular on this thread. I'm happy to hold the belief Australia is far less racist now than it was 40 years ago and others are more than welcome to disagree.

[angelopetraglia]

Australian population born overseas = 29.5%.
Australian population with at least one parent born overseas = 51.5%


Population born overseas

France = 12.8%
USA = 13.6%
Italy 10.4%
Germany = 16.1%
Poland = 2.0%
China = 0.7%
Russia = 8.1%
UK = 13.1%
Canada = 21.8%
Japan 1.6%
India = 0.4%
NZ = 22.9%
Indonesia = 0.1%
South Korea = 2.6%
Netherlands = 11.7%


We are not perfect. We have our issues. But we have come a long, long way. We are one of the most tolerant and multicultral countries on this planet. We should recongise and celebrate that.

[Grantysghost]

Australian population born overseas = 29.5%.
Australian population with at least one parent born overseas = 51.5%


Population born overseas

France = 12.8%
USA = 13.6%
Italy 10.4%
Germany = 16.1%
Poland = 2.0%
China = 0.7%
Russia = 8.1%
UK = 13.1%
Canada = 21.8%
Japan 1.6%
India = 0.4%
NZ = 22.9%
Indonesia = 0.1%
South Korea = 2.6%
Netherlands = 11.7%


We are not perfect. We have our issues. But we have come a long, long way. We are one of the most tolerant and multicultral countries on this planet. We should recongise and celebrate that.

Wow- that stat at least one parent born overseas is amazing. Puts me in the minority. My ancestors were on the first fleet (not willingly).

[angelopetraglia]

Just anecdotally. I was in a executive leadership meeting this morning. Eight people. Six were either born in another country or both of their parents were both born in another country. The other two had one parent who was born overseas. Not a single person in the room had two parents who were born in Australia.

In how many countries are you going to find that? We are an incredibly diverse and tolerant country.

[josie]

Racism definitely still exists in Australia. It's just not as obvious as its no longer socially acceptable as it must have been previously. I wasn't around in the 70s or 80s to know what it was like but I've heard and read enough to get an idea.
I dealt with some as a kid growing up in the 90s and I would say a lot of it these days is more the "ignorant" kind rather than flat out abusive racism. A lot of the more "quiet" racism is from the older generations. I certainly haven't seen as much from the younger ones.

I know for sure that homophobia today is nowhere near the levels it was when I was in high school even in the 00s. Certain terms were used to insult anyone that are no longer acceptable/common. Just listen to some Eminem lyrics from songs that were hits. He'd be outcast today for such words.

Things have definitely changed for the better but 100% racism still exists. It's just expressed differently.

Well said. Encapsulates my opinion far more eloquently than I could have.

I volunteered a fair bit for voice yes campaign and was surprised with the level of open vitriol towards indigenous people from some folks, albeit a minority.

Other chats or views expressed about indigenous people (and also about non indigenous people with dark complexions) that I?ve had with some people I know in last few years (who are white, middle aged & middle class) have almost floored me. What shocked me is that these are people who are reasonably well educated and otherwise seemingly fair people. I?m guessing most of their prejudiced views are from lack of introspection, ignorance and watching sensationalist media.

The term ?quiet? racism captures this really well.

These articles share some of the obvious & less obvious forms of racism that prevail:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-31/australia-talks-racism-discrimination-society/100172652

https://www.amnesty.org.au/does-australia-have-a-racism-problem-in-2021/

[jeemak]

Here's a perspective from Matthew Stokes.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/accusing-people-of-racism-in-a-class-action-doesn-t-seem-fair-20240313-p5fbzw.html

Seems to mirror some sentiments expressed here.

[Grantysghost]

Point is - it's not possible to get to net zero racism. Humans gonna human, there's just nuffies out there. We probably do it as good as anywhere. Whether that is enough I don't know. We'd all love eradication of these twits. If we want to start to share some of our middle-class wealth down below the poverty line and give up our Iphone n+1 then that maybe a good start.

[Happy Days]

I wasn’t gonna say anything but if you think a country that just overwhelmingly voted against an indigenous voice to parliament and is run by a government that refuses to condemn an ethnic cleansing doesn’t have a serious systemic racism problem then I don’t really know what to tell ya.

I guess it’s cool that (most) people aren’t openly using slurs anymore.

[Grantysghost]

I wasn’t gonna say anything but if you think a country that just overwhelmingly voted against an indigenous voice to parliament and is run by a government that refuses to condemn an ethnic cleansing doesn’t have a serious systemic racism problem then I don’t really know what to tell ya.

I guess it’s cool that (most) people aren’t openly using slurs anymore.

That vote was an embarrassment. Not sure it failed for the reasons you're insinuating; life isnt that reductive, but fmd beats me why folks voted no.

[hujsh]

When you call someone "white passing" (whatever that means) you are making an evaluation of an individual through nothing but a lens of colour. That is not how I live, and I personally think a person's immutable birth characteristics are some of the least interesting things about any individual.

It's getting a bit circular on this thread. I'm happy to hold the belief Australia is far less racist now than it was 40 years ago and others are more than welcome to disagree.

When you kinda ignore the previous points someone has made that tends to happen.

You enjoy your belief, which no one has really argued against, but you seem to really enjoy repeating.

[hujsh]

That vote was an embarrassment. Not sure it failed for the reasons you're insinuating; life isnt that reductive, but fmd beats me why folks voted no.

I'm sure they all just really love the constitution, because that's something we've always done in this country.

[Grantysghost]

I'm sure they all just really love the constitution, because that's something we've always done in this country.

Haha I lolzed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Well said. Encapsulates my opinion far more eloquently than I could have.

I volunteered a fair bit for voice yes campaign and was surprised with the level of open vitriol towards indigenous people from some folks, albeit a minority.

Other chats or views expressed about indigenous people (and also about non indigenous people with dark complexions) that I?ve had with some people I know in last few years (who are white, middle aged & middle class) have almost floored me. What shocked me is that these are people who are reasonably well educated and otherwise seemingly fair people. I?m guessing most of their prejudiced views are from lack of introspection, ignorance and watching sensationalist media.

The term ?quiet? racism captures this really well.

These articles share some of the obvious & less obvious forms of racism that prevail:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-31/australia-talks-racism-discrimination-society/100172652

https://www.amnesty.org.au/does-australia-have-a-racism-problem-in-2021/

100% agree here. The voice campaign really brought a lot of the quiet racist crowd to the forefront. People who I previously may have suspected of being a little racist (due to the odd comment here or there that wasn't exactly racist but I found a bit odd to say) really stamped their stance when the voice came up. Like they couldn't help themselves to express how outrageous they thought it was to give indigenous people "more rights" than others. It was very similar to black lives matter. They were so concerned about how it would impact them and not give a second of thought to how our indigenous communities are suffering in the western life imposed on them.

Then there were others who completely surprised me with their "no" stance. It wasn't the no. It was the reason why.....I was shocked.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Point is - it's not possible to get to net zero racism. Humans gonna human, there's just nuffies out there. We probably do it as good as anywhere. Whether that is enough I don't know. We'd all love eradication of these twits. If we want to start to share some of our middle-class wealth down below the poverty line and give up our Iphone n+1 then that maybe a good start.

Totally. It's not like Australia is unique here. In fact all races are racist in some sense. I've heard plenty of racist remarks from Chinese, Indians etc.

Also agree re the materialism and greed of society. I hate it. Humans are gonna human and always do what's best for the self. Like how we're somehow driving bigger and bigger cars at a time where emissions need to be reduced because we're killing the planet.

[jeemak]

When you call someone "white passing" (whatever that means) you are making an evaluation of an individual through nothing but a lens of colour. That is not how I live, and I personally think a person's immutable birth characteristics are some of the least interesting things about any individual.

It's getting a bit circular on this thread. I'm happy to hold the belief Australia is far less racist now than it was 40 years ago and others are more than welcome to disagree.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this statement. Well, I've not interpreted posts to suggest so.

A bit like when people say society is out of control, it's all relative to what we deem is acceptable or a level we aspire to for our society to be like. Society is well and truly/ overwhelmingly in control, even when it seems like it isn't, because the out of control stuff seems so visible.

That's how I see racism in Australia under normal conditions. But tweak a few things like cost of living or unemployment, and the pressure those things create in society make people more susceptible to backsliding towards the bad old days. Let's see how racist we aren't if a recession hits and the next federal election is heavily campaigned on stopping brown people coming to Australia by boat and African youth crime gangs in Melbourne and Sydney.

[GVGjr]

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to the discussions but we have clearly moved away from the original point of the thread so it's time to wrap it up. Please feel free to send me a message if there are some good reasons to keep it open as I'm happy to review.