After 5 rounds undefeated, where are we at ?

[LostDoggy]

I don't think to many would have honestly thought that after 5 rounds of football we would still be undefeated but even though the win loss column looks great I still think there is a tonne of questions if we are the genuine article or not.

Whilst the Cats and Hawks have been setting the world on fire with their brand of football and talented line ups, the Dogs have been quite effective without setting the world on fire.

When we played the Crows I think most would agree that we snatched a win without actually really earning it and even yesterday we got 2 points more than we probably should have. The Saints stopped after thrashing us in the first term and we ran over the top of the injury depleted Bombers but genuinely gave the Demons a thumping.

I don't know if luck has to much to do with things but if the bounce of the ball didn't go our way in a couple of these encounters we could have so easily been 2 wins and 3 losses or even 1 win and four losses.

So where are we at ?
Have we been a touch fortunate to have been 5 games into the season without a loss ?
What has worked well for us ?
What areas do we need to improve on ?

The one thing that stands out to me is our ability to run out the 4 quarters.


The real downside with yesterdays draw is that there is every chance now that our solid precentage won't come into play later in the season.

[G-Mo77]

If you had told me at the end of last season that we would be 4 - 0 - 1 I would have laughed in your face. The team has improved out of sight compared to the tripe they served up towards the end of 2007. There is still a lot of work to do, with West going down and the team colapsing in the centre is very worrying for me because Westy just can't go on forever. I still think we need that tall target up forward, yesterday showed that. But as I said, undefeated in 2008 I'm very happy with that!


In regards to be lucky. It's hard to say if "Luck" comes into it good sides tend to have it go there way a lot and when your bad you always seem unlucky if that makes any sense at all. :confused: As I have said a lot in the last few weeks in the circumstances we have been in, in the last 3 games and in round 1 the team would have collapsed and dropped the game. This season we have not and have played it out until the last seconds which we have been rewarded for.

[westdog54]

If you had told me at the end of last season that we would be 4 - 0 - 1 I would have laughed in your face. The team has improved out of sight compared to the tripe they served up towards the end of 2007. There is still a lot of work to do, with West going down and the team colapsing in the centre is very worrying for me because Westy just can't go on forever. I still think we need that tall target up forward, yesterday showed that. But as I said, undefeated in 2008 I'm very happy with that!


In regards to be lucky. It's hard to say if "Luck" comes into it good sides tend to have it go there way a lot and when your bad you always seem unlucky if that makes any sense at all. :confused: As I have said a lot in the last few weeks in the circumstances we have been in, in the last 3 games and in round 1 the team would have collapsed and dropped the game. This season we have not and have played it out until the last seconds which we have been rewarded for.

It almost seems like a contradiction in terms doesn't it?

We seem to be not playing all that well in reality, yet we're undefeated and third. There's definitely been a luck factor to it, plus the fact that we're pushing games out to the siren now, which in itself is an improvement.

As for the question I'll answer in terms of questions that were being asked pre-round 1.

How have the recruits been?

*Disclaimer* Have not seen yesterday's game and am going from the postings of others. Having said that: It seems that Hudson was well beaten yesterday, but has been very good otherwise. Ruckwork has been good, and provides a second effort on the ground to get the ball out. Bit like Street, only a lot faster and less unco-like. Will be a good short-term ruckman for 3-4 years barring injury.

Welsh. Hmmm... if he was playing against us yesterday he'd have kicked all 5 goals and probably found 1 or two more. But again, yesterday was a blip on the radar, has been solid since. Even against StKilda when he only kicked the 1 goal, his willingness to work up the ground, chase, tackle, basically do all the little things that Adelaide supporters said he wouldn't do, which probably had more to do with the fact that they were trying to talk him down after he walked out on the Camry's, has impressed me no end. Fair to say that so far we've done the best out of the pre-season draft.

Is the Minson experiment working?

Last year if he'd had 8 disposals and 10 hit outs for the game we'd all have been up in arms. Fortunately, this year that is only half of his game. This year, he does all that, kicks 3 goals, and earns two free kicks, rather than give them away. Great to see him getting Marmo votes also, though from what I gather, its more to do with others being rubbish than Will being excellent.

He's certainly no over the mountain yet but he's well and truly on his way. He's taking contested marks, he's kicking goals, difficult goals and easy ones, he's crashing the pack and playing havoc with the opposition defence on the ground, and he's going into the centre and being at least servicable in the ruck. A big tick for Will so far this year.

Have Cooney and Griffen stood up?

Have they ever!! Again, ignoring yesterday, between them they've been excellent. Cooney is working his backside off in the centre, and Griffen's polish and out and out skill in the midfield has been wonderful to watch.

The fact that we have so much room for improvement and yet are finishing 3rd is extremely good news. While we've had our fair share of luck, we're sitting on 18 points when in reality it could've (perhaps should've) been as low as 4. Those extra 14 points may be the difference between a home final/double chance and no finals at all come year's end.

[Topdog]

I don't know if luck has to much to do with things but if the bounce of the ball didn't go our way in a couple of these encounters we could have so easily been 2 wins and 3 losses or even 1 win and four losses.

So where are we at ?
Have we been a touch fortunate to have been 5 games into the season without a loss ?
What has worked well for us ?
What areas do we need to improve on ?

The one thing that stands out to me is our ability to run out the 4 quarters.


I would actually say that the bounce of tha ball has gone against us in a few games.

I don't think we snatched victory from Adelaide and felt rather confident in most of the last quarter. We were up by enough near the end and let them kick a few in a row via poor clearance work.

St. Kilda didn't just stop, they were stopped.

Essendon were dead at 3/4 time.

Richmond we should have lost because we kicked poorly. Bad kicking is bad football.

What has worked well is our never give in attitude. Came from behind to win in 3/4 matches and also came from behind for the draw.

Our attack at the football is much better and our entry into the forward 50 seems to be quite good this year.

The main things we need to work on for me

* Keeping concentration for 4 quarters! Seem to have a shocker of a quarter every game where we miss every easy target and drop tonnes of marks.

* Need a sprinter available to us. We have been killed by King and Davey / Lovett in the past few games because no one could catch them.

* Our tackling. Seem to miss quite a few tackles still, although in general our tackling has improved a lot.

[Go_Dogs]

Interesting thread. As another who didn't see yesterday it is hard to actually grasp what happened - from what I can gather we reverted back to the team from 07, where others waited around for Willing Somebody to do the work for them. This is simply not good enough, and if we can, we should drop those who were passangers yesterday.

We seem to have a few good players who are ready for a taste, and in decent VFL form - in Skipper, Ward, Stack - with hopefully West, Ray, Williams and Everitt to come back into the side over the coming weeks. If someone isn't doing their job, or putting in 100% effort, drop them for a few weeks. We're going to be a successful side this year, and if you want to be a part of it, we expect 100% commitment at every training session, every match, every rehab session, everything. If you can't meet the expectation, tough cookies.

As most have noted, our pressure when we don't have the ball is the key to our success. Whenever we are chasing hard and working for each other on the defensive aspects of the game we look sooo much better. When we don't, we can't create space, miss targets and look ordinary.

I agree with WD that we have a lot of improvement left, if we can extract it, and keep the players fit and working hard, we should continue to improve as the year continues on. Hopefully the squad can have an honest apprasial of itself after the weekend and look to rectify these issues.

[lowedog]

I'm not sure about the point of this post. We are undefeated after 5 rounds for the first time in club history(I think), yet we are still questioning whether we deserve it? As someone pointed out, good teams win when they are playing poorly. Against the bombers, I honestly thought that essedon(no typo)where done at 3/4 time, injuries or not. Adelaide will be a top 4 contender this season, we flogged the whipping boys, and beat a team that everyone is tipping as the team to push geelong for the premiership. Sure yesterday we got a get out of jail free card, but once again, 4 kicks done with less than 3 and half minutes to go, is a fanastic effort, that proves where we are at. I think we should be positive about out season so far, and with WCE this week, a 5-0-1 start is beyond expectations. maybe we all need to raise those expectations, and put ourselves up there with the best in the comp. I say this because no one else is going to do it!

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure about the point of this post.

I suppose the threads about if we are playing top 4 type football and I tend to think it's a reasonable question. Normally you would know after the start that we have had but right at this moment I'm still not convinced that we are that good or not.

[lowedog]

Fair enough, but my point is that we are winning, and i'm not sure what more we can do.

[lowedog]

I tell you what. Without getting ahead of ourselves here, lets say on form, we should get over WCE on the weekend. Then we travel to sydney, which obviuosly will be a real test of where we will be. Maybe we should be asking these questions after the next 2 weeks?

[FrediKanoute]

I tell you what. Without getting ahead of ourselves here, lets say on form, we should get over WCE on the weekend. Then we travel to sydney, which obviuosly will be a real test of where we will be. Maybe we should be asking these questions after the next 2 weeks?

I think so. yesterday we had no run, no system. We didn't chase hard enough and gave them too much space. Maybe we didn't respect them well enough and maybe after kicking 4:10 in the first we figured that it was going to be a cakewalk.

I think WCE will be tougher than their ladder position suggests. I also think that the SYdney game wont be easy. We should definitely have a better view of where we are at when we play the likes of Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn.

[westdog54]

I tell you what. Without getting ahead of ourselves here, lets say on form, we should get over WCE on the weekend. Then we travel to sydney, which obviuosly will be a real test of where we will be. Maybe we should be asking these questions after the next 2 weeks?

I think its quite right we ask these questions now. Yesterday we escaped with a draw against a team that we should've beaten and beaten easily. Against Adelaide we got out of jail when our captain came to the rescue and one of their blokes missed a shot on goal at the death.

Against StKilda we went to sleep in the first quarter before kicking into gear after that.

We simply cannot afford to be complacent like this and expect to keep winning. To say you're not sure what else we can do, how's this for a start? We can string together 4 quarters of good solid football of the type Geelong produced consistently last year. We've shown that we have the talent to do it but at the moment it isn't happening.

[lowedog]

I think I'm being misunderstood. There is always room for improvement, especially from where we were coming from, last year. But we are 3rd on the ladder, a game and a half clear of the next team. We've scored more than anyone else in the league, and the improvement of the next teir of players at the club is obvious. I think we should be more concerned about these things than constanly looking at the negatives. Thats what the media is for. Leave it up to the 'experts"!

[Topdog]

I think my prediction from pre-season of 6th with a decent run of injuries is probably where we are at.

Can't see us missing the finals anymore even with a lot of injuries but we are not the finished article and IF we don't improve we are not a top 4 side.

However I think the things we need to improve on, esp. consistency are not too difficult to improve on. Our game plan seems pretty solid and we have a good mix of hardness which we have lacked for 58,000 years (slight exaggeration). We also have a fantastic fitness base that has allowed us to run over teams in the last quarter.

Quick question, have we won every last quarter this year?

[The Coon Dog]

Quick question, have we won every last quarter this year?

Yes.

R1. WB 6.3.39 v Adel 6.2.38
R2. WB 6.4.40 v Melb 2.3.15
R3. WB 8.2.50 v StK 3.1.19
R4. WB 6.8.44 v Ess 0.2.2
R5. WB 7.2.44 v Rich 5.2.32

Total. WB 33.19.217 v Opp 16.10.106

[Sockeye Salmon]

Yes.

R1. WB 6.3.39 v Adel 6.2.38
R2. WB 6.4.40 v Melb 2.3.15
R3. WB 8.2.50 v StK 3.1.19
R4. WB 6.8.44 v Ess 0.2.2
R5. WB 7.2.44 v Rich 5.2.32

Total. WB 33.19.217 v Opp 16.10.106

At an average of nearly 7 goals!

[LostDoggy]

The real downside with yesterdays draw is that there is every chance now that our solid precentage won't come into play later in the season.

Huh??!

Are you serious? We were going to LOSE the game yesterday and was down by 25 points with 4:30 to play. We snatched a draw from nowhere, and the two points that we stole are worth all the "solid percentage" in the world!

The draw, considering that we were going to lose, is an upside, not a downside.. just assume that percentage doesn't come into it anymore as we have essentially booked ourselves infinity percentage with our return from the dead.

[GVGjr]

Huh??!

Are you serious? We were going to LOSE the game yesterday and was down by 25 points with 4:30 to play. We snatched a draw from nowhere, and the two points that we stole are worth all the "solid percentage" in the world!

The draw, considering that we were going to lose, is an upside, not a downside.. just assume that percentage doesn't come into it anymore as we have essentially booked ourselves infinity percentage with our return from the dead.

While 2 points is always better than none how many teams get a draw for the season? When you have a lousy percentage a draw can work for you, when you have a good percentage like we do the draw can work against you.

[The Dogfather]

The positive I see from these "come from behind wins/draws" is that the team always seem to have the belief they can win a match no matter how unrealistic the scoreboard looks when in the past they would've hung their heads.

[ledge]

Draw was as good as a win , as teams below us still have to win 2 games more to catch us

[Sockeye Salmon]

Draw was as good as a win , as teams below us still have to win 2 games more to catch us

Seeing our % was so good they still would have needed 2 wins to get ahead of us anyway.


Good % = draw is worthless
Bad % = draw is as good as a win.

It's a bit early in the season to start considering those kinds of things, after all, not everyone has played Melbourne yet.

[LostDoggy]

While 2 points is always better than none how many teams get a draw for the season? When you have a lousy percentage a draw can work for you, when you have a good percentage like we do the draw can work against you.

I acknowledge your points, G, but follow me rationally here:

We were going to LOSE the game, with five minutes left, no question. Thus, zero points, and the (minimal) loss of some percentage.

Instead, we draw the game. Two points. So we get a boost from essentially getting nothing out of the game, to getting what essentially amounts to infinite percentage.

How can the draw yesterday work against us? We would have to win 12 games (or so) to get into the finals anyway, even if we had lost yesterday. Now we have exactly the same equation in front of us, but with an unbeatable percentage. And if anyone else close to us draws as well then our good percentage comes into play.

---

ps. I don't think our 'good' percentage is going to count for much anyway as it was won mostly on the back of trashing Melbourne. I don't think we will be the only team around the mark that trashes Melbourne this year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The difference between us 'contending' might well be due to having a host of players who wouldn't be able to get a game in the top two or three sides.

Eg. Wight, Callan, Addison & Harbrow would be playing in the reserves, yet for us, they play important roles to which we're often let down (mainly due to disposal/decision making for the first three).

The last two weeks we've carried Hill & Johnson too, so that's where the downfall is. Geelong/Hawthorn & perhaps one or two other sides could afford to carry Hill/Johnson, but we can't when we already have those other players. They aren't total rubbish, but they're certainly a cut or two below what we realistically need to challenge.

Obviously a fit & firing Ray & Higgins helps a lot, and ditto Everitt/Williams, but we're hardly ever injury free.

As others have said, our next batch of players are only 18-20 years old, so it's too hard to expect them to fill important voids.

Our first 18 players are probably as good as any other side going around minus a few holes, but as soon as injuries hit like they have - even if they aren't major - it makes a big difference.

Really need Harbrow/Stack/Lynch to come on this season.

[westdog54]

I think I'm being misunderstood. There is always room for improvement, especially from where we were coming from, last year. But we are 3rd on the ladder, a game and a half clear of the next team. We've scored more than anyone else in the league, and the improvement of the next teir of players at the club is obvious. I think we should be more concerned about these things than constanly looking at the negatives. Thats what the media is for. Leave it up to the 'experts"!

We are 3rd on the ladder and a game and a half clear, and yes, its certainly something to be celebrated.

But the way I see it, we're considerably more than half a game behind Geelong and Hawthorn, who are quickly emerging as the yardstick for the season. Both teams would have beaten us soundly in the last two weeks. This is where my concern lies.

We have the talent on our list to mount a serious challenge for the premiership in the next couple of years but we can't keep relying on our ability to 'get out of jail'.

[alwaysadog]

IF we don't improve we are not a top 4 side.

This to me is the crucial issue. Call it luck, call it never give in spirit, call it what one wants ... but the fact is we are off to an unexpected flyer. That's worth celebrating as 13 other clubs would like to be where we are.

Have we improved on last year? Well we have shown signs of much greater physical and mental toughness, two key parts of our game that have been problems in the recent past?

Are we playing well? In patches yes, but not consistently, and we are either giving the opposition too much lattitude at times or they are able to pick holes in our game for extended periods, and we become the hunted not the hunters. And I expect more of the same as opposition players and coaches will be lining up to give us the treatment.

Good sides improve as the season progresses, will we? I don't have a crystal ball, but our bigger bodies and better team balance mean we have a chance. The hunger is there, so we'll have to wait and see if we have the skill and capacity to manage to play consistently well through four quarters, or will the self doubt start to set in again.

I don't think we are a top 4 side as I said early last year when the hype was reaching astronomical proportions that I didn't expect us to be a serious threat till 2009 and I still don't. We are certainly showing that we are on an up path but key positions in the spine remain to be properly filled before we can really challenge Geelong etc.