Why are we being killed in the middle?

[Dry Rot]

Warrnambulldog posted an excellent question in the Bombers game day thread


Do not know how we get killed out of the middle so often with the names we have in there.

This is now been happening for years.

Why?

[JanLorMill]

Started with our ruck was being as soft as butter.

[westdog54]

We're too reliant on two men. If neither get off the leash we're stuffed.

As simplistic as it sounds, we've got no plan b is the opposition can contain Bont and Libba.

After the effort that went into last week's match it was disheartening beyond belief to see our midfield get its colours lowered by this mob.

[jDogs]

Our mids are at an automatic disadvantage, having to mostly rely on what is going on with the opposition ruck. It feels like we rely so heavily on Libba and Bont because if they aren't in there, the odds are only greater that we get torched.
It really sucks hearing the likes of Chris Scott talk about the benefits of running way more guys through there compared to us, yet coming out on top or neutral. We are running our champs into the ground.

[FrediKanoute]

Begs the question why we have rotated Macrae out of the middle.

Bit like the last 4 years of JJ......yet when he gets back to his natural position we are a better side for it

[kruder]

I'm not sure we could say that Lade has fixed any of the issues from the 2021 GF since he come in, we continually let sides out the front of the stoppage.

[JanLorMill]

Begs the question why we have rotated Macrae out of the middle.

Bit like the last 4 years of JJ......yet when he gets back to his natural position we are a better side for it
We had the same issues with Macrae in the middle. We tried something different but it didn’t fix the problem.

[westdog54]

Begs the question why we have rotated Macrae out of the middle.

Bit like the last 4 years of JJ......yet when he gets back to his natural position we are a better side for it

As much as he's not particularly damaging, there's a level of composure in his kicking that so many others lack.

[angelopetraglia]

So the issue isn't Macrae. It was the same when we had Dunkley in there too. Who is another contested beast bull. It doesn't really appear to matter who is in the middle. We get beaten often too easy out of the midddle.

Maybe it is the Ruckman?

[Happy Days]

As much as he's not particularly damaging, there's a level of composure in his kicking that so many others lack.

He was one of few positives tonight. He actually reminds me a bit of Caleb when he doesn’t suck at the moment.

[angelopetraglia]

As much as he's not particularly damaging, there's a level of composure in his kicking that so many others lack.

The kick to the space in front of Naughton in the fist quarter was exquisite.

[EasternWest]

So the issue isn't Macrae. It was the same when we had Dunkley in there too. Who is another contested beast bull. It doesn't really appear to matter who is in the middle. We get beaten often too easy out of the midddle.

Maybe it is the Ruckman?

That's All Australian ruckman Tim English you're talking about. He's an All Australian don't you know.

[Grantysghost]

That's All Australian ruckman Tim English you're talking about. He's an All Australian don't you know.

I've turned on English. That was insipid.

Bradburied that AA.

By the way, what does All Australian even mean? Like literally.

[Happy Days]

If English was 192cm he might be the best player in the AFL. I’ve broken my brain over him too many times.

[MrMahatma]

If we want to dominate stoppages and centre clearance, we should play a ruckman.

Prior to doing that, we should (or more accurately would need to) recruit a ruckman

[Dry Rot]

If we want to dominate stoppages and centre clearance, we should play a ruckman.

Prior to doing that, we should (or more accurately would need to) recruit a ruckman

I think you are being harsh on English.

Tonight I saw him on occasion expertly tap the ball out of the middle to midfielders.

Unfortunately, they had black jumpers with a red slash.

[azabob]

That's All Australian ruckman Tim English you're talking about. He's an All Australian don't you know.

And champion of hits to advantage.

[ledge]

We get beaten in the middle because Bevo refuses to have any of our mids on the defensive side of the circle, if the ball goes that way the opposition are free to run straight through.

[AshMac]

There?s a couple of things here I think:

1. We are very weak in the ruck contest. Very weak - often the opposition ruck taps it to his teams advantage or it is neutral

2. We setup for an all in ball win - often don?t have players defensive side of the contest if the balls goes our way initially - means the other team streams out uncontested if they get hands on

3. Apart from Libba - our midfielders are totally incapable of dealing with any physical contact from their opponent

[Uninformed]

Could it be as simple as Joel Corey?

He gets huge praise from Bont. and the timing of our dominance to weakness seems to coincide with him leaving.

[chef]

We havent replaced Dunkley, our only true two way mid. No one else really wants to do the defensive stuff.

[Grantysghost]

We havent replaced Dunkley, our only true two way mid. No one else really wants to do the defensive stuff.
Fagan gave him immense praise recently.

Smith and Dunkley make things look a lot better in the guts.

[azabob]

Fagan gave him immense praise recently.

Smith and Dunkley make things look a lot better in the guts.

Hold on GG. Now you are back on keep Smith?

[Jeanette54]

We get beaten in the middle because Bevo refuses to have any of our mids on the defensive side of the circle, if the ball goes that way the opposition are free to run straight through.

I have never understood the wisdom of this. If you set up on the defensive side you can run straight through and are in a much better set up to attack. So often we are stifled because we have to engineer an extra possession or turn in order to be heading in our direction. Coming from the defensive side your attacking options are always in vision and you are better balanced to deliver the ball. So often we begin with an almost blind kick across the body.

[Grantysghost]

Hold on GG. Now you are back on keep Smith?
Never wanted to get rid of Smith he's a star.

I think he will leave though.

[angelopetraglia]

Phil Davis on our midfield mix.

https://x.com/1116sen/status/1778977658334011783

[Mofra]

If English was 192cm he might be the best player in the AFL. I?ve broken my brain over him too many times.
If English was happy to play 20/80 forward/ruck he'd be the best at it in the AFL.
Heck, given how good he is at chopping out down back he might even be a gun CHB.

Right now he is just losing trust as that week-in, week-out competitor. You can have poor weeks, you can have effort that is conditional.

[EasternWest]

If English was happy to play 20/80 forward/ruck he'd be the best at it in the AFL.
Heck, given how good he is at chopping out down back he might even be a gun CHB.

Right now he is just losing trust as that week-in, week-out competitor. You can have poor weeks, you can have effort that is conditional.

I think he'd be an amazing CHB.

[Mofra]

Phil Davis on our midfield mix.

https://x.com/1116sen/status/1778977658334011783
He's right.

I do think we've tried to address this with getting speed out of the backline (JJ back there, picking up Bramble) and playing Naughton up the ground. We just haven't quite adjusted enough though.

[angelopetraglia]

He's right.

I do think we've tried to address this with getting speed out of the backline (JJ back there, picking up Bramble) and playing Naughton up the ground. We just haven't quite adjusted enough though.

Sanders is probably too similar to who we already have too when it comes to pace and explosiveness. The player we are missing is a fit and firing Bailey Smith. He compliments the others.

He has struggled to find that form again. But in those massive finals wins in 2021 against the Lions and Port. In those two games he kicked 7 goals and had 50 touches. Our midfield did not look pedestrian in those games.

[Hotdog60]

Dare I say it but would VDM be an asset as an outside mid to receive and run.
The only knock will be that next disposal.

[The Underdog]

Fagan gave him immense praise recently.

Smith and Dunkley make things look a lot better in the guts.

You?re not equating Smith with Dunkley as a 2 way mid though right? I mean Smith has pace and run but mostly going forward. I don?t want to lose him but he doesn?t help our midfield defensively.

[Critter]

Since the day he arrived, Tim has had a distaste for physical contact. Particularly the front-on type that happens at centre bounces. His second efforts after inconclusive ruck contests are underwhelming and too often he becomes an observer when the contest leads to a ground scrap. That is, unless he is hit somewhere, in case he is often self-absorbed in checking himself for wounds.

Goldstein took him apart because Goldy is more than happy to use his body to create space or lay tackles. Tim is not a ruckman, he is more of an old style follower. We should modify his role to suit this.

Match this issue with a midfield structure that refuses to contemplate the risk of leaving open the front of the defensive side of centre bounce contests and you have a recipe for disaster. But don't expect the coach to fix this. He knows it's a continual problem for the Bulldogs and said so last night in his press conference. What he didn't say was that he had any idea of how to fix the problem.

The emperor has no clothes.

[westdog54]

Dare I say it but would VDM be an asset as an outside mid to receive and run.
The only knock will be that next disposal.

Not so much his disposal in terms of executing a skill, moreso his composure and decision making. He'd have even less time to make a good decision in the midfield than he does in the forward line.

Could be pinch hit as a winger while Smith recovers? Does he have the tank? Looking at his sprint numbers from last night, both total sprints and repeat sprints, he's got no issues with work rate.

[Mofra]

Not so much his disposal in terms of executing a skill, moreso his composure and decision making. He'd have even less time to make a good decision in the midfield than he does in the forward line.

Could be pinch hit as a winger while Smith recovers? Does he have the tank? Looking at his sprint numbers from last night, both total sprints and repeat sprints, he's got no issues with work rate.
VDM is good at what he does but, not to pot the kid, I'm worried 'other' roles are beyond him. There's a certain level of innate football thinking required to be a good wing - especially positioning and not getting suckled into the contest.

We have ball hunters in the centre but when it goes wrong the next step seems to be 'hunt the ball harder' and not 'adjust to stop the opposition'.

[Danjul]

If English was happy to play 20/80 forward/ruck he'd be the best at it in the AFL.
Heck, given how good he is at chopping out down back he might even be a gun CHB.

Right now he is just losing trust as that week-in, week-out competitor. You can have poor weeks, you can have effort that is conditional.
All this was argued years ago. Bizarre that it still an obvious problem.

The current disaster is due to the belief that the ruck is irrelevant. Never was the case and never will be. Because it?s the restart activity it is critical. And it has cost us, big time.

[Danjul]

I have never understood the wisdom of this. If you set up on the defensive side you can run straight through and are in a much better set up to attack. So often we are stifled because we have to engineer an extra possession or turn in order to be heading in our direction. Coming from the defensive side your attacking options are always in vision and you are better balanced to deliver the ball. So often we begin with an almost blind kick across the body.
saw this all over the ground last night.

Our method of moving the ball is get it to the boundary line, so you have no room to manoeuvre, handpass to someone worse off so they have one of these Bulldog specialties. The end result is a turnover and the opposition runs through the middle unopposed.

Saw it at least 20 times last night. Baker and Treloar were both doing the Blind? kicks when they should be running the ball into space.

[Grantysghost]

You?re not equating Smith with Dunkley as a 2 way mid though right? I mean Smith has pace and run but mostly going forward. I don?t want to lose him but he doesn?t help our midfield defensively.
No not doing that.

[westdog54]

VDM is good at what he does but, not to pot the kid, I'm worried 'other' roles are beyond him. There's a certain level of innate football thinking required to be a good wing - especially positioning and not getting suckled into the contest.

We have ball hunters in the centre but when it goes wrong the next step seems to be 'hunt the ball harder' and not 'adjust to stop the opposition'.

The wing position had had a real renaissance in the past five years or so.

The funny thing about Vandermeer is that he seems to get himself to the right spots well enough, it just falls apart once he's actually got the footy.

A different level of responsibility might be the making of him.

[jeemak]

Our see-ball-get-ball mentality hurts us, and the homogenisation of our centre bounce specialists under Lade means we don't have enough levers to pull when things aren't going our way.

We can all see the strengths our guys bring to the table, but their weaknesses are their weaknesses and Libba, Treloar and Bontempelli aren't going to change the way they play. We need to bring alternatives into the mix, and quickly.

A difference between a good game for Tim and an ordinary game for him is stark. He needs to close the gap and commit to being more physical more often. When he is playing well he is competent as a stoppage ruck (and outstanding at everything else), but even minor lapses in intensity and concentration against his counterparts leave him well exposed due to his physical characteristics. He's not a lump of a man and is easily moved unless he's fully committed to what he's doing.

I'm really concerned about our midfield coaching, and I'm not sure if it's a Bevo and Lade thing, or a Lade thing but on top of a change in personnel a change in coaching needs to take place.

[GVGjr]

I'm really concerned about our midfield coaching, and I'm not sure if it's a Bevo and Lade thing, or a Lade thing but on top of a change in personnel a change in coaching needs to take place.

Is there anything you can poinpoint Jee? What changes to out midfield philosophy do you think we need to consider?

[jeemak]

Is there anything you can poinpoint Jee? What changes to out midfield philosophy do you think we need to consider?

My main issues centre around that lack of diversity/ development of alternatives, and the continued doubling down of our win the ball at all costs mentality where there's no sensitivity to what's situationally taking place or a tempering of instinctive attributes in players who can't neutralise outcomes, only deliver polar win-lose extremes.

The two are linked and you can only do what you can with the personnel at your disposal, I guess.

The main change I'd make is bring someone who is quick into the mix and have them play a specific defensive first role, and break up the trio who are incapable of doing that so we're not as exposed as often. There's nothing wrong with asking Cody to be that player when he takes his turns in the middle, like MJP said in another thread, getting Ed involved and asking him to do that mightn't be the worst idea.

Both Treloar and Bont are capable of causing problems when playing forward, so I don't see them giving away minutes as a huge exposure. Libba is Libba and he's going to get a game, so his role is probably the only one that isn't modified to any great extent.

[angelopetraglia]

Lethal. Not mixing words.

You can?t have soft big men.

https://x.com/footyonnine/status/1779457741008048275?s=46&t=oMlyiNHry1lhUs8p7uzZ_A

[jeemak]

Lethal. Not mixing words.

You can?t have soft big men.

https://x.com/footyonnine/status/1779457741008048275?s=46&t=oMlyiNHry1lhUs8p7uzZ_A

How's the piece of shit Morris reacting to the valid comments from Matthews.

Just wanting the hot take or angle to come to light.

[Doc26]

Tim is a key forward akin to a Peter Wright. Regardless of his current All Australian status he’s not a ruckman in the mould of a Gawn, Darcy or Witts etc

[Hotdog60]

Tim is a key forward akin to a Peter Wright. Regardless of his current All Australian status he’s not a ruckman in the mould of a Gawn, Darcy or Witts etc

We've been saying for a few years now haven't we. If we can see it the coaches must.
A mobile ruckman is all well and good but a genuine ruckman will give you first use and with 6,6,6 lets your key forwards have a better chance one on one.

[angelopetraglia]

We've been saying for a few years now haven't we. If we can see it the coaches must.
A mobile ruckman is all well and good but a genuine ruckman will give you first use and with 6,6,6 lets your key forwards have a better chance one on one.

Bevo has known it for a long time. Was it a coincidence that we played our best footy when in the first half of 2021 when Stef Martin was in a partnership with Tim? With Tim playing the forward/ruck role? With Sweet playing when Martin wasn?t until we got smashed by Melbourne.

Tim basically gave the club an ultimatum that he wanted to play ruck and obviously got his way.

They must have thought he could potentially change as he got older, but he hasn?t. He ain?t physical enough at the contest or man, he never has been and he never will be.

Has some other amazing qualities that very few ruckman posses that allows him to star quite often, but in big games, against tough physical ruckman, he goes missing.

[macca]

Bevo has known it for a long time. Was it a coincidence that we played our best footy when in the first half of 2021 when Stef Martin was in a partnership with Tim? With Tim playing the forward/ruck role? With Sweet playing when Martin wasn?t until we got smashed by Melbourne.

Tim basically gave the club an ultimatum that he wanted to play ruck and obviously got his way.

They must have thought he could potentially change as he got older, but he hasn?t. He ain?t physical enough at the contest or man, he never has been and he never will be.

Has some other amazing qualities that very few ruckman posses that allows him to star quite often, but in big games, against tough physical ruckman, he goes missing.

Tim is not the piece of the puzzle that will get us to a premiership. Leight Matthews has come out and called him soft. Now, clubs know how to rough him up. There goes our stoppage planning... Just give English a bump.

He is not a physical and stoppage ruckman. Stefan Martin provided that. The Great beard was a champion at it. This is the missing piece. It bewilders me that we did not go hard to get Goldestein last year, as he would be the perfect foil for Tim. Goldstein has good endurance (83 % TOG) , is a decent mark and knows where to be at the goal front. Not only can Goldy provide on field balance, but he would be a good ruck coach as well to our younger players.

We also need to address our goal kicking ( raised again and again, its like a recursive afterthought....)
VDM, West, Juh and Naughton all missing gettable shots. Whilst at the other end, Bombers putting them through the middle sticks.

[josie]

Tim is not the piece of the puzzle that will get us to a premiership. Leight Matthews has come out and called him soft. Now, clubs know how to rough him up. There goes our stoppage planning... Just give English a bump.

He is not a physical and stoppage ruckman. Stefan Martin provided that. The Great beard was a champion at it. This is the missing piece. It bewilders me that we did not go hard to get Goldestein last year, as he would be the perfect foil for Tim. Goldstein has good endurance (83 % TOG) , is a decent mark and knows where to be at the goal front. Not only can Goldy provide on field balance, but he would be a good ruck coach as well to our younger players.

We also need to address our goal kicking ( raised again and again, its like a recursive afterthought....)
VDM, West, Juh and Naughton all missing gettable shots. Whilst at the other end, Bombers putting them through the middle sticks.

Agree with this post. Goldy for a year or two would have been smart.

[angelopetraglia]

Leigh Matthews. One of the most respected people in the game. Just gave Tim quite possibly the biggest spay I have heard in my time following the game. Calling an AFL footballer soft and saying he is not playing with enough vigour. Can it get worse than that?

"Tim Engilsh is a big man playing like a little man at the moment he is not playing with enough agression"

"At the moment he is not playing with enough vigour and agression, your big men have to play big, you can't have soft big men"

Are you calling him soft? "He is playing soft".

Whack.

Whack.

Whack.

[GVGjr]

Agree with this post. Goldy for a year or two would have been smart.

But we wouldn't play 2 genuine ruck man in the same game. Goldy would have been okay for Footscray but less so for the seniors.
Tim hasn't quite adapted to the new ruck rules, hopefully he will soon.

[D Mitchell]

But we wouldn't play 2 genuine ruck man in the same game. Goldy would have been okay for Footscray but less so for the seniors.
Tim hasn't quite adapted to the new ruck rules, hopefully he will soon.

Josie's right, English isn't a Goldstein-Gawn. When Goldstein was available, we should have mortgaged the Town Hall to get him.

[Grantysghost]

Josie's right, English isn't a Goldstein-Gawn. When Goldstein was available, we should have mortgaged the Town Hall to get him.
G is right, how do you fit Goldstein in with Lobb and Darcy?
He mightve been a good break glass however i dont think he'd leave Norf for that. His old coach promised him time and that's what he's getting.

[macca]

Goldsteins last year at North , Xerri was being played ahead if him for a few games. That would have been signal enough for Power to pursue. Who knows what negotiations took place but it was a missed opportunity. I would have put Goldsteim ahead of Lobb as a recruit.

[lemmon]

Tim basically gave the club an ultimatum that he wanted to play ruck and obviously got his way.


Have seen this floating around a bit - what's it based on? Outside of team selection, it's not something I've seen hinted at anywhere in the media or what Tim's said.

[azabob]

Have seen this floating around a bit - what's it based on? Outside of team selection, it's not something I've seen hinted at anywhere in the media or what Tim's said.

It was a while ago but fairly certain cool hand Luke B pretty much said so.

[JanLorMill]

Agree with this post. Goldy for a year or two would have been smart.
No we missed that boat when we went for Lobb. Instead of addressing the problem of a ruck that?s not combative enough, we traded for a player that took a position that English might able to play.
Grundy was available and cheap.

We have trouble fitting in Darcy English and Lobb into the 22. Goldstein as well?

[JanLorMill]

Have seen this floating around a bit - what's it based on? Outside of team selection, it's not something I've seen hinted at anywhere in the media or what Tim's said.
Hinted by Bevo but I’m finding him hard to believe more and more.

[josie]

No we missed that boat when we went for Lobb. Instead of addressing the problem of a ruck that?s not combative enough, we traded for a player that took a position that English might able to play.
Grundy was available and cheap.

We have trouble fitting in Darcy English and Lobb into the 22. Goldstein as well?

After last match English would be dropped or play swingman, Goldstein (or Gawn) would play, as would Darcy. Lobb is I believe injured. Darcy is still fragile as he strengthens his frame.

[Dazza]

Why do we let our players dictate where we play them? I've heard English, Dunkley, Smith and Naughton all crack the shits when asked to play different roles. Just suck it up and do what's best for the team.

[comrade]

Why do we let our players dictate where we play them? I've heard English, Dunkley, Smith and Naughton all crack the shits when asked to play different roles. Just suck it up and do what's best for the team.

Yeah, I dunno if it?s because I barely follow the AFL at the moment so have no idea what?s going on with other clubs but it seems our group more than anyone is so conditional with their buy in & commitment. It?s infuriating. Do they think the club ceases to exist without them?

[CarnTheScray]

Still think we should've sent English off and had a crack at bringing in Goldstein or even better Grundy. I've been saying since 2019 that he will never be up to it despite his other attributes, surprised its taken this long for the media to give him a spray.

[CarnTheScray]

G is right, how do you fit Goldstein in with Lobb and Darcy?
He mightve been a good break glass however i dont think he'd leave Norf for that. His old coach promised him time and that's what he's getting.
The solution would've been to make Naughton CHB (which for some reason is universally impossible and defies all laws of the world) and have one of Darcy and Lobb play forward and the other play forward ruck.

[CarnTheScray]

Our see-ball-get-ball mentality hurts us, and the homogenisation of our centre bounce specialists under Lade means we don't have enough levers to pull when things aren't going our way.

We can all see the strengths our guys bring to the table, but their weaknesses are their weaknesses and Libba, Treloar and Bontempelli aren't going to change the way they play. We need to bring alternatives into the mix, and quickly.

A difference between a good game for Tim and an ordinary game for him is stark. He needs to close the gap and commit to being more physical more often. When he is playing well he is competent as a stoppage ruck (and outstanding at everything else), but even minor lapses in intensity and concentration against his counterparts leave him well exposed due to his physical characteristics. He's not a lump of a man and is easily moved unless he's fully committed to what he's doing.

I'm really concerned about our midfield coaching, and I'm not sure if it's a Bevo and Lade thing, or a Lade thing but on top of a change in personnel a change in coaching needs to take place.
Tim is 27. He won't be changing the way he plays in the ruck.

[Critter]

My main issues centre around that lack of diversity/ development of alternatives, and the continued doubling down of our win the ball at all costs mentality where there's no sensitivity to what's situationally taking place or a tempering of instinctive attributes in players who can't neutralise outcomes, only deliver polar win-lose extremes.

The two are linked and you can only do what you can with the personnel at your disposal, I guess.

The main change I'd make is bring someone who is quick into the mix and have them play a specific defensive first role, and break up the trio who are incapable of doing that so we're not as exposed as often. There's nothing wrong with asking Cody to be that player when he takes his turns in the middle, like MJP said in another thread, getting Ed involved and asking him to do that mightn't be the worst idea.

Both Treloar and Bont are capable of causing problems when playing forward, so I don't see them giving away minutes as a huge exposure. Libba is Libba and he's going to get a game, so his role is probably the only one that isn't modified to any great extent.

The bolded section above is is a seriously good thought.

In one of the more interesting match sims earlier in the year, players were swung around into new roles. Both Ed and Cody played midfield for the entire match sim and both were very good. Particularly Ed. Time after time, he drove the ball out of centre bounces. He was outstanding.

These are the guys we want in the mix in the middle. They are fast, tough and, best of all, can lay a tackle or close down a contest. Further, they can kick the ball properly - low, long and hard.

Put both of them into the rotation let's get back to winning the ball at source. Cody rotating with Treloar/Bont is a continuation of what is and if Collingwood were able to switch Nick Daicos between midfield and half-back last year, surely we can do the same with Ed.

Tim English is what he is. He plays well around the ground but his distaste for the physical aspects of a contest means, generally, he will be beaten at centre bounces. So, let's build a midfield that doesn't depend upon an armchair ride from a ruckman for us to win centre clearances.

[Topdog]

We havent replaced Dunkley, our only true two way mid. No one else really wants to do the defensive stuff.

Libba does the defensive stuff too but its too much left to too few

[Grantysghost]

The solution would've been to make Naughton CHB (which for some reason is universally impossible and defies all laws of the world) and have one of Darcy and Lobb play forward and the other play forward ruck.
You know better (that's how bevo answers that).

[Topdog]

Phil Davis on our midfield mix.

https://x.com/1116sen/status/1778977658334011783

That is an excellent walkthrough by Phil. 1st time I've really listened to him, very impressive.

[ledge]

I have a thought on Garcia as a replacement for Libba, he seems as hard and in and under as Libba but quicker, also a better kick, this is the perfect time to insert him into Libbas role .
It has to be done for two reasons.
1 Is he up to AFL and 2 Libba hasn’t got long with his knees.
If the game is all about speed we need Garcia in.

[Critter]

The solution would've been to make Naughton CHB (which for some reason is universally impossible and defies all laws of the world) and have one of Darcy and Lobb play forward and the other play forward ruck.

You will find this solution suggested frequently in past posts on WOOF. Many now complain they are tired of hearing it, thinking it's a broken record. Thing is though, it is by far still the best and most logical solution available to us. It addresses so many issues - back-up in the ruck (Lobb) should English get into difficulty; a place (full forward) and time for Darcy to develop while his body matures; a more effective backline through having a quality tall (Naughton) at CHB.

And if the spirit of adventure becomes infectious, you might even consider moving some stronger, faster bodies (Richards and Weightman) into the midfield rotation to improve our contest at centre bounces.

What we're doing, and how our team lines up isn't working. Let's fix it properly, not tinker at the edges. As Beveridge (and Einstein) said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". In the words of John Kennedy snr, "DO SOMETHING"!

[CarnTheScray]

You will find this solution suggested frequently in past posts on WOOF. Many now complain they are tired of hearing it, thinking it's a broken record. Thing is though, it is by far still the best and most logical solution available to us. It addresses so many issues - back-up in the ruck (Lobb) should English get into difficulty; a place (full forward) and time for Darcy to develop while his body matures; a more effective backline through having a quality tall (Naughton) at CHB.

And if the spirit of adventure becomes infectious, you might even consider moving some stronger, faster bodies (Richards and Weightman) into the midfield rotation to improve our contest at centre bounces.

What we're doing, and how our team lines up isn't working. Let's fix it properly, not tinker at the edges. As Beveridge (and Einstein) said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". In the words of John Kennedy snr, "DO SOMETHING"!
My solution also includes moving English on and recruiting a new ruck. I just don?t think he is up to it. Think he has escaped scrutiny for far too long.

[GVGjr]

Why do we let our players dictate where we play them? I've heard English, Dunkley, Smith and Naughton all crack the shits when asked to play different roles. Just suck it up and do what's best for the team.

I don't think they do but there is a bit of a perception out there that says otherwise. Players would have a preference but who knows for sure if that is much of a talking point in contract negotiations.

[GVGjr]

I have a thought on Garcia as a replacement for Libba, he seems as hard and in and under as Libba but quicker, also a better kick, this is the perfect time to insert him into Libbas role .
It has to be done for two reasons.
1 Is he up to AFL and 2 Libba hasn’t got long with his knees.
If the game is all about speed we need Garcia in.

Back when Weightman and Garcia arrived at the club I had a zoom call with both of them. It was mentioned that the club had recruited Garcia with an eye on him being an understudy to Liberatore. Thursday night would be a good opportunity to see if he has what it takes.

[Critter]

My solution also includes moving English on and recruiting a new ruck. I just don?t think he is up to it. Think he has escaped scrutiny for far too long.

Fair call.

[azabob]

That is an excellent walkthrough by Phil. 1st time I've really listened to him, very impressive.

He is impressive and considered.

He was on my wish list when we were restructuring our coaching panel last season.

[Happy Days]

Agree with this post. Goldy for a year or two would have been smart.

Some of us advocated for offering massive overs for him before the 2021 season. Not sure if Goldy would?ve helped any issues we faced that year though.

[JanLorMill]

Some of us advocated for offering massive overs for him before the 2021 season. Not sure if Goldy would?ve helped any issues we faced that year though.
Highly likely he would have helped given that we rucked Young in finals and were smashed by Jackson in the GF

[JanLorMill]

After last match English would be dropped or play swingman, Goldstein (or Gawn) would play, as would Darcy. Lobb is I believe injured. Darcy is still fragile as he strengthens his frame.
We top heavy already.

[Happy Days]

Highly likely he would have helped given that we rucked Young in finals and were smashed by Jackson in the GF

Ya don’t say

[JanLorMill]

Ya don’t say
sorry I missed the sarcasm.

[Critter]

He is impressive and considered.

He was on my wish list when we were restructuring our coaching panel last season.
Given his views on our team selection, it would have been fun to be a fly on the wall during meetings between him and Beveridge.

[Grantysghost]

Some of us advocated for offering massive overs for him before the 2021 season. Not sure if Goldy would?ve helped any issues we faced that year though.

Some woofer even had it in their signature - remember that?!

[jeemak]

sorry I missed the sarcasm.

It's hard to pick up because he's usually such a straight shooter.

[angelopetraglia]

It happens quickly doesn't it?

In 2021 we could not fit all our mids in. At different times Libba, Treloar and Dunkley were playing non preffered flank roles.

We had:

Bont
Libba
Macrae
Baz
Dunkley
Treloar
Hunter
Daniel

It is scary just thinking about that above group all in form and in their prime.

Four years later.

Bont - still flying
Libba - possibly retired
Macrae - miles off his best footy, turns 30 in August
Baz - ACL and question mark on future
Dunkley - gone
Treloar - has cemented a starting midfield position, but is now 31
Hunter - gone
Daniel - played everywhere, but had 37 touches in the GF

Since 2021. It has now been four years. Who have we developed or tried as a midfielder?

What does 2025 look like?

Bont
Treloar
Sanders - hopefully cements a spot
Garcia???
Richards???
West???
Harmes???

Who else? All of sudden we have gone from choclates to boiled lollies. The cupboard looks bare.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I have a thought on Garcia as a replacement for Libba, he seems as hard and in and under as Libba but quicker, also a better kick, this is the perfect time to insert him into Libbas role .
It has to be done for two reasons.
1 Is he up to AFL and 2 Libba hasn’t got long with his knees.
If the game is all about speed we need Garcia in.

I like Garcia and think he?s been a solid addition since he?s come back into the team but to suggest he?s a better kick seems crazy to me - that seriously underestimates how good a kick Libba is

[Grantysghost]

I like Garcia and think he?s been a solid addition since he?s come back into the team but to suggest he?s a better kick seems crazy to me - that seriously underestimates how good a kick Libba is
No way on earth! Libba is one of the best kicks in the side. Garcia is a little dubious on that front.

[kruder]

Garcia deserves a spot at inside mid this week he is ahead of Sanders at this stage. Lets see what he can do.

[GVGjr]

Garcia deserves a spot at inside mid this week he is ahead of Sanders at this stage. Lets see what he can do.

He was recruited as an understudy to Libba so lets see if he's ready to answer the challenge.

[jDogs]

I think it's much more likely that Richards plays full time mid. I don't like it, but I can see it happening.

[Hotdog60]

Should we using Joel Freijah as a winger that was he's junior position?
He has been looking impressive coming off the half back line but a bit of speed and agility around the middle might be better.
If Baz deserts the ship Joel could be the replacement and he looks a much better kick of the footy.

[Grantysghost]

Should we using Joel Freijah as a winger that was he's junior position?
He has been looking impressive coming off the half back line but a bit of speed and agility around the middle might be better.
If Baz deserts the ship Joel could be the replacement and he looks a much better kick of the footy.
Yes, it's what the evolution demands.

[GVGjr]

Should we using Joel Freijah as a winger that was he's junior position?
He has been looking impressive coming off the half back line but a bit of speed and agility around the middle might be better.
If Baz deserts the ship Joel could be the replacement and he looks a much better kick of the footy.

Some players are better suited to different positions than what they played in at the junior level.
Griffen spent a year or so at half back. Darcy never rucked at the junior level but is a back-up now at the senior.
Even Lukas Webb was a forward and a midfielder at the junior level and on his draft night Dalrymple announced he was going to be a defender.

We have Williams just about locked into a wingers spot, Gallagher spent some time there on Sunday plus we have Poulter, Baker and Bedendo as back-ups. It might be better for Freijah to spend a large chunk of this year as a defender but he could still end up being a winger for us..

[Hotdog60]

What about outside mid Treloar's role when he pulls the pin or no longer up for it.

[Rocket Science]

What about outside mid Treloar's role when he pulls the pin or no longer up for it.

It's fine, Bailey Smith should be rounding into his prime by then ... oh.

[mjp]

What about outside mid Treloar's role when he pulls the pin or no longer up for it.

Treloar has been playing inside though??

He hasn't played outside all year?

[Hotdog60]

Treloar has been playing inside though??

He hasn't played outside all year?

How much inside I see a lot of outside. :)

[mjp]

So the issue isn't Macrae. It was the same when we had Dunkley in there too. Who is another contested beast bull. It doesn't really appear to matter who is in the middle. We get beaten often too easy out of the midddle.

Maybe it is the Ruckman?

I've sorta stayed away from this thread (on purpose) 'cos it kind of crosses over from footy 'fan' stuff to footy 'work' stuff but here we go. If this sounds like I'm over explaining something simple, apologies...just ignore me.

The first thing you need to decide is if we actually ARE being beaten. Freo obviously torched us at the stop all over the ground - but outside of that our general clearance numbers have been OK. The challenge in those numbers of course is we often send an extra to the stop conceding a plus behind the footy (either in receive or intercept position depending on what the oppo do) so we should not only be winning the ball but shaping it out (vs surging) so there's always a bigger story to be unpicked.

If you wanted to isolate on the Freo game you need to really set personnel aside. Sure, there are going to be some players - I'm talking Fyfe in 2015, Dusty in 2017 type level - that are so dominant around the contest that they 'override' structure and setup - but there aren't many like that rn. I guess Cripps on his day, Serong on his day, Neale...maybe Oliver...that's about it.

Anyway, there's kind of two ways you can get beat:

#1 - You can beaten inside-out: The oppo dominates the INSIDE of the contest and uses clean first hands to get the ball to the outside layer/second bubble call it whatever you like.
#2 - You get beaten outside-in: The oppo controls the OUTSIDE of the stop, forces you IN but compresses the space...then when the ball comes out they own the space (and therefore the footy).

Now - pretty much every team in the comp players a relatively straight forward triangle structure and try to minimise the space where the oppo can move into. On top of that each team tries to separate the oppo mids so two aren't standing in adjacent positions which allows them to proactively block for one another etc - in other words if red is playing blue there will be three pairs of players in a triangle shape around the stop - red then blue then red then blue etc.

Are there alternative structures you can use to defend 'more' - well, you can play with a fixed sweeper, you can play a defensive triangle (two on goal side) etc but in those configs the main game isnt winning the ball but rather forcing the oppo to exit wide and under pressure.

Anyway - back to the original question - are we getting beaten outside-in or inside-out??

My simplified view is we tend to play with an inside-out style - relying on the likes of Liber and Dunks to get their hands on the footy INSIDE then release to the first receivers (Bont, Treloar, Daniel) on the OUTSIDE. But the oppo have been kind of compressing the room around our first hands players and forcing them to release to a contest...

Is there a solution? Well - convert to being an outside-in team. Compress the stop by starting back shoulder vs all oppo mids and forcing them IN. Our ruckman then becomes CRUCIAL because we need to expand the hit zone and get the ball to the outside (second layer/outside bubble) where our mids are now operating...inside-out teams are generally happy to halve the contest because the ball "flopping" inside suits that style.

Does the ruckman have a REAL part to play? Well...he doesn't need to work miracles - he just needs to create a 'democratic' situation where our mids can have a say in the outcome rather than caravanning after an oppo player who is on the outside running onto a pre-set H2A. Do true H2A's still exist? Maybe 1-2 per game with the games better rucks - and of course, goals can result. Ultimately though, being able to consistently get the ball to the inside or outside on the "right" side of the stop? That is where the real gold is with this position and why the Carlton mids are so in love with Pittonet.

[mjp]

How much inside I see a lot of outside. :)

Outside mid = WING, HHF.
Inside mid = Starts in at CBD.

[lemmon]

I've sorta stayed away from this thread (on purpose) 'cos it kind of crosses over from footy 'fan' stuff to footy 'work' stuff but here we go. If this sounds like I'm over explaining something simple, apologies...just ignore me...


The 'Thanks' button isn't enough - that taught me more about stoppage structure than I've ever learnt watching footy/listening to footy media.

[bornadog]

The 'Thanks' button isn't enough - that taught me more about stoppage structure than I've ever learnt watching footy/listening to footy media.

Yes me too. Way over my head

[kruder]

He was recruited as an understudy to Libba so lets see if he's ready to answer the challenge.

His confidence is growing at the level, he had some nice moments last week. I've always liked him G he just has a bit of be more bulldog in him which we are crying out for.