Have we thrown in the towel for 2024

[Jeanette54]

"First Crack" raised the theory that we have woken up to the fact that we do not have the quality of players to become a premiership contender, and that we have decided to get games into the kids at the expense of the older stalwarts like Macrae, Dale and Daniel.

They mentioned the dreaded "R" word, rebuild. It was mentioned that when St Kilda decided, after round 4, some years ago, the whole club fell flat for the season.

Do Woofers believe that is what is happening, it might certainly explain some of the selections, and last week's poor, lacklustre performance. Maybe it also helps explain the recent loss of form for a couple of AA players.

Maybe, "are we investing 2024 toward future success", might have been a kinder thread header.

[JanLorMill]

I find that hard to believe because it means it is curtains for Beveridge then. He can?t survive given his positivity for 2024 in his November media statements.

[JanLorMill]

Also a lot of those AA player are contracted long term so I doubt we are going to get great picks for them.

[jeemak]

I said a few weeks ago that our current situation reminds me of the 2018-2020 period where we did rebuild.

It was only retrospectively that I figured out what was going on, because Bevo was saying similar things to what he is today in that we're always searching to be as good as we can be as quickly as possible.

If Bevo had the political capital to run with another rebuild in contradiction to all of the messaging coming out of the club the past eighteen months I'd be very surprised.

[MrMahatma]

The team played like it on Friday.

[Grantysghost]

I don't know if it's a rebuild as much as it's disruption. Culture change maybe. It's a very hard thing to do and you need complete buy in.

Some of the selection decisons have probably fractured the group and got some noses out of joint and dependant on how influential those affected are it could take some time to settle.

If this is the case and we are driving change then im hopeful things will find a natural groove pretty soon.

If they don't and we've pulled the wrong lever then it might be a tough road back for Bevo.

Can't have too many more Friday nights.

[Hotdog60]

Can't have too many more Friday nights.

No because when you lose it makes for a shitty weekend.

[lemmon]

I think we've identified that the personnel are in decent shape but the game style didn't mesh with modern footy. We looked at Collingwood and GWS last year - speed on the ball, score from turnover, immense forward pressure, slingshot from half back - and we've attempted to modify our style to be more in line with how the game's played on 2024.

I think we've seen guys left out whose games don't suit that style (Macrae, Caleb) in favour of guys who bring leg speed and ability to get across the ground (Gallagher, Bramble).

The question for me is are we seeing teething problems or is our list incompatible with the new style? Can talented players like Caleb and Macrae be taught new tricks?

Bevo needs to figure it out pretty quickly.

[angelopetraglia]

I think the key question around this is confusion. Bevo poured fumes on it in his presser.

So we have had:

-Robbo touch on it in the tackle.
-Peter Ryan wrote a piece on it The Age
-The First Crack team have ran with it too.
-Kornes also ran with it on Sunday on the footy show and AFL media

So it is now the story of the week. It will be fascinating to see how Bevo handles the questions he is going to get at his next presser.

[Bullies]

Changes had to made after the way we finished off last year. To keep as it was makes no sense and if that means a new game plan and a few of the senior guys missing out then so be it. I don't mind the run and gun as we look good when we throw it around and take the game on.

My issue is the players we have brought in to execute this game plan are not up to AFL standard. Players like VDM, Bramble, Baker, Poulter, Harmes etc I can't see being long term nor making a difference. Our list is so out of whack to me.

[angelopetraglia]

Another two journos have now had a crack at the mystery that is the Bulldogs.

-Connolly on ESPN https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/39910800/afl-western-bulldogs-luke-beveridge-caught-present-future

-Jay Clark in the Herald Sun https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/recalibration-or-rebuild-time-for-western-bulldogs-to-tell-truth-on-belief-in-their-list/news-story/6590cd7190b22109b5d1cb6f30fe1f5f?amp

So that is six and coutning and we have not had the Monday night footy shows yet. Bevo's presser is a real head scratcher for the mixed messages and confusion it has created.

We need a massive effort Thursday night.

[azabob]

Another two journos have now had a crack at the mystery that is the Bulldogs.

-Connolly on ESPN https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/39910800/afl-western-bulldogs-luke-beveridge-caught-present-future

-Jay Clark in the Herald Sun https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/recalibration-or-rebuild-time-for-western-bulldogs-to-tell-truth-on-belief-in-their-list/news-story/6590cd7190b22109b5d1cb6f30fe1f5f?amp

I think Jay Clark was the jurno asking a lot of questions in Friday nights aftermatch press conference.

[MrMahatma]

I don't think selection is losing us matches. The one that is probably having biggest impact is Darcy v Lobb, due to Darcy being not as good in the ruck, and I don't know what his time on ground has been, but Lobb was more or less always out there I think. So I'd probably say the only "now vs later" trade off being made is that one - and it's not like Darcy isn't bringing a lot to the table. He is. I don't see how you could possibly leave him out.

I think we can blood the young guys and still contend. I just don't think the team is executing what's required very well, or they're not having a red hot crack... which could be cause Bevo has lost them.

[angelopetraglia]

I think Jay Clark was the jurno asking a lot of questions in Friday nights aftermatch press conference.

100%. It was him.

[azabob]

100%. It was him.

Was his article reasonable? His questioning on Friday night was pretty good compared to the normal after match questions.

[angelopetraglia]

Recalibration or rebuild? Time for Western Bulldogs to tell truth on belief in their list

What is behind the Dogs’ downward spiral? And is it a terminal spiral which will become a full-on rebuild, or is Luke Beveridge just recalibrating his star-studded list? JAY CLARK investigates.

The recalibration is on at the kennel.

Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge almost said it on Friday night, but held his tongue because he has never been one to throw his players under a public bus in press conferences.

And at Round 6 there is still plenty of life in the season if they can find the spark.

But the reality is the same club which only nine months ago said it has a top-four list has probably worked out that is no longer the case.

And, as much as Beveridge will be hoping for a turnaround over the next few weeks, now is the time to tell the fans more of the brutal truth.

Two-and-a-bit years ago they led Melbourne by eight points at half-time of the 2021 Grand Final, but three years on and losses to the Saints and Fremantle away over the next fortnight would present an enormous crossroad for the red, white and blue ahead of a tough mid-year fixture.

Ask any Dogs’ fan where they are at and they’ll scratch their heads.

Perhaps the Dogs have been a bit unsure of themselves, too.

While the club has probably the best and most consistent player in the competition in Marcus Bontempelli, and Tom Liberatore gives his heart every week, it is clear that as talented as some of their teammates are, the Bulldogs’ biggest names include some of the most up-and-down performers in the competition.

And the reason why the coach keeps dropping and subbing some of his biggest names is not to do with their weekly possession totals which is what we often gravitate too.

It is their lack of speed which is crucial in the modern game and the missing defensive efforts without the ball that Beveridge has been tough on.

Jack Macrae is a ball magnet, but the midfield lacks pace.

Caleb Daniel is exquisite with the Sherrin, but the club wants more run off half back.

And Bailey Dale is an elite kick, too, but where is his man?

Ryley Sanders is also still learning the two-way game.

Rory Lobb was a yo-yo, Tim English might want the big money but got destroyed on Friday night and it will be a miracle if Bailey Smith isn’t elsewhere next year.

Jamarra Ugle-Hagan could be anything and on Friday night showed superstar qualities, but the combination with Aaron Naughton and Cody Weightman has delivered rollercoaster results.

So Beveridge may not be rebuilding, but recalibrating on the run in the belief the team needs more youth and more leg speed and more consistency.

And the man who has held the back line together in recent times, Liam Jones, is 33, Liberatore is 31, and Sam Darcy should never play VFL again.

West Coast and Hawthorn may have fallen off a list cliff after their flags and ended up in deep holes, and Beveridge will be wary not to go down the same path.

But if they go down to the Saints on Thursday night they are 2-4 and it will be time to call a spade a spade after chief executive Ameet Bains said mid-last year “yeah we do (have a top-four list)”.

“They haven’t played consistently at that level and the analysis will show that,” Bains said.

“But if you look at the nucleus of the team … they’re going as well as anyone in the competition and you build a side around that.”

But then why the slump, after last year after suffering an inexplicable loss to wooden-spooner West Coast and missing finals?

Former Collingwood and Carlton superstar Dale Thomas said on Triple M on Sunday “They are so hard to rank, their list is stacked”.

Beveridge is clearly up for the fight, and will say he has a lot of coaching in the tank.

That is what it looks like.

He would be an attractive option for another club.

The joint was humming when he took them to a flag in 2016 after a magic carpet ride through September.

Their connection was off the charts and their handball skills out of congestion were just about the best in it.

The Dogs ate out of Bevo’s hands back then, and the club has backed him in until the end of next year.

So there is time from that perspective, we think.

But is the locker room affected by the selection ring-a-rosy?

Certainly, the club cannot pretend it is a top-four contender and then behind the scenes plot a different course.

Perhaps it is time to tell us what that course is, because if it is a recalibration or rebuild then the results won’t seem as puzzling or indeed as disappointing if there is more than one eye to the future?

But would that sort of admission turn the players off and ignite an even worse downward spiral? Would rivals make a play for ‘Bonti?’

The coach is trying to keep everyone engaged. It certainly feels on edge.

This fortnight is massive for the Dogs because the Saints have not nearly as much talent, but loads more running power and intent at the moment.

It was a miracle the Saints got within one point of GWS Giants on Saturday considering the difference in draft riches between the two sides.

And this week the Saints will try and burn the Dogs on the outside.

Then it is Fremantle away, followed by a tough mid-year fixture.

The pain may be coming for the Dogs, as they prepare to weed out the inconsistent ones on the list.

Beveridge even sort of said it, in a yes but no sort of a way.

“The players themselves have created an internal pressure for spots and that is all OK if you end up being a formidable team,” Beveridge said.

“Right now, we are not.

“Whether or not there is any pain as we evolve and move into the future because it is all about the now and what is up next and what is up next year.

“I understand if people are unsure about where we sit in the scheme of things.”

If the Dogs do know where are at, it is time to tell us. And if it is not a rebuild of sorts, what is it?

St Kilda great Leigh Montagna said the list on its own didn’t tell the full story at the kennel, and that Beveridge was right to make a selection stand.

“There is a lot more to a successful footy team; there is the coaching, the system that you play, the culture. There’s all these other factors that come into being a good team, not just names on paper,” Montagna said on Triple M.

“Over a couple of years now they have shown they are consistently inconsistent.

“They conceded run-ons as much as any team in the competition.

“We don’t see the work behind the ball and that is what Luke Beveridge might have had enough of and said ‘I don’t care if you get the ball 30 times’.

“’If you aren’t helping us win games and consistently win games, we will move past you.

[angelopetraglia]

Was his article reasonable? His questioning on Friday night was pretty good compared to the normal after match questions.

It was reasonable. I have posted the article so you can make your own mind up.

[Grantysghost]

It was reasonable. I have posted the article so you can make your own mind up.

This rebuild / rehash talk seems to be a convenient deflection to sub standard performances. I don't care whats happening with list management that doesn't affect a players effort.

Bevo is on the nose at the Dogs. We've basically re-jigged the entire operation to break his power hold over the joint and now we are seeing the ripples because it was such a huge culture change that should have been happening iteratively over the past few years.

[GVGjr]

Every now and then the club needs to make a stand so this week I want Bevo, Grant, Bains and KWW to get on the front foot and push back on the perception the media is portraying for us.

[angelopetraglia]

Every now and then the club needs to make a stand so this week I want Bevo, Grant, Bains and KWW to get on the front foot and push back on the perception the media is portraying for us.

They absolutely need to show a united front and a consistent message from President to Coach.

[MrMahatma]

This rebuild / rehash talk seems to be a convenient deflection to sub standard performances. I don't care whats happening with list management that doesn't affect a players effort.



It could also be that the players being questioned aren't doing what's required of them, and to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs. So the "refresh" is really a bit more organic and purely based on form - which is what Bevo has said in his pressers.

I do feel pretty worried about Thursday night. We're gonna get flogged.

[Grantysghost]

They absolutely need to show a united front and a consistent message from President to Coach.

If this is all part of a grand rebuild plan then why do we have to answer to something they've supposedly known about for months.

Any club statements to me other than we are all united and sticking to our strategy would be quite frankly embarrassing.

We expected this, so all good.

[Grantysghost]

It could also be that the players being questioned aren't doing what's required of them, and to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs. So the "refresh" is really a bit more organic and purely based on form - which is what Bevo has said in his pressers.

I do feel pretty worried about Thursday night. We're gonna get flogged.

That's a reasonable position. Macrae and Daniel have been on the nose for a while so they're not a surprise with their lack of selection.

Dale, he's purely out of form.

I don't see any of this as some master plan it's just a natural progression of recent rule changes.

The point im trying to make is, this isn't some grand strategy it's just a few players the game has passed by and some out of form.
Raising this was completely unnecessary and I probably expect it wasn't vetoed as a club strategic message.
If this destabilises the team enough that we have to make up some rebuild story after the fact then as Obi Wan says to Anakin "then you (we) are truly lost!" :cool:

[SquirrelGrip]

Clubs should always be building. This is nonsense to suggest we have to plead "mea culpa" we are rebuilding.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Finally we have accepted that change has needed to be made. We recruited new assistants, restructured our football department and conducted a review. Bevo appears fully behind this.

But of course with all of this, we are now doing things differently. Our requirements of players has changed, our game plan is tweaking.

It clearly hasn't all come together and we remain inconsistent, but I for one like the approach we are taking. There is a clear strategy in place and we seem tougher at executing it. I expect our new assistants and Matt Egan are all behind it, giving an uncensored view of how the Bulldogs are perceived. It's the entire footy department behind this, not just Bevo.

Some of our experienced players haven't adapted to the new approach, and may not ever fit in it, but I'd much prefer we try something new and fail than just continue to do the same thing over and over again.

[Sedat]

The better teams walk and chew gum at the same time (Geelong, Sydney, GWS, Collingwood). You can compete for the now in 2024 and also have an eye on the future (both in terms of refreshing the list through young talent, and also game trends/game plan adjustments). We should be no different - in fact we were too slow to adjust and adapt but at least the penny appears to have dropped.

It's a very long season and GWS/Carlton proved that last year. Losing so poorly to a previously notoriously flakey team in Essendon was an awakening, but let's see a more sustained sample size before going the nuclear option. I'm not 100% sold on Bevo as the long-term solution but I am just a mug in the outer - much smarter minds than mine have backed him in with the necessary changes in support/conditioning/assistants to support the recommendations from our off-season review.

[Grantysghost]

The better teams walk and chew gum at the same time (Geelong, Sydney, GWS, Collingwood). You can compete for the now in 2024 and also have an eye on the future (both in terms of refreshing the list through young talent, and also game trends/game plan adjustments). We should be no different - in fact we were too slow to adjust and adapt but at least the penny appears to have dropped.

It's a very long season and GWS/Carlton proved that last year. Losing so poorly to a previously notoriously flakey team in Essendon was an awakening, but let's see a more sustained sample size before going the nuclear option. I'm not 100% sold on Bevo as the long-term solution but I am just a mug in the outer - much smarter minds than mine have backed him in with the necessary changes in support/conditioning/assistants to support the recommendations from our off-season review.
This is how you sell a down period.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8315211/cats-dont-need-to-rebuild-coach-scott-says/

[Boots]

That Jay Clark article is a good read. Instead of painting the same old “Bevo has a stranglehold” picture, he’s pointing out something new - Beveridge has actually embraced the new challenges of a game that’s moved past him. His focus on defence and pace is him recognising that the best teams have that. These are positive signs.

I read something somewhere - I think it was a big footy post - about iow our defence is noticeably different to last year, and that we’re getting more intercepts and better speed of ball movement. Sure our are mids are still struggling to defend and the connection with the forward line is pretty poor, but hey defence has been a weakness since we lost moz.

The biggest worry, I think, is now that our midfield has a big Dunkley and smith sized gap between the old guard and sanders. How weird to think our once-unbeatable midfield might be the problem in a year or two.

[Hotdog60]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VZ3OA_akcc

[FrediKanoute]

The better teams walk and chew gum at the same time (Geelong, Sydney, GWS, Collingwood). You can compete for the now in 2024 and also have an eye on the future (both in terms of refreshing the list through young talent, and also game trends/game plan adjustments). We should be no different - in fact we were too slow to adjust and adapt but at least the penny appears to have dropped.

It's a very long season and GWS/Carlton proved that last year. Losing so poorly to a previously notoriously flakey team in Essendon was an awakening, but let's see a more sustained sample size before going the nuclear option. I'm not 100% sold on Bevo as the long-term solution but I am just a mug in the outer - much smarter minds than mine have backed him in with the necessary changes in support/conditioning/assistants to support the recommendations from our off-season review.

We have beaten WCE and the Suns. Both teams not expected to play finals this year. We have lost to Melbourne, the Cats and Bombers. 1 team will be top 4 and the other 2 challenging for the bottom half of the 8. Based on that sample size we underperform against teams that are competitive and beat up on weaker teams.

[JanLorMill]

We have beaten WCE and the Suns. Both teams not expected to play finals this year. We have lost to Melbourne, the Cats and Bombers. 1 team will be top 4 and the other 2 challenging for the bottom half of the 8. Based on that sample size we underperform against teams that are competitive and beat up on weaker teams.
A lot of people expect gcs to make the finals given their draw

[kruder]

I wonder how much influence Egan is having in the background he was really the major change in the off season bar the new head of fitness.

[jeemak]

A lot of people expect gcs to make the finals given their draw

If Friday night taught us nothing at least we should acknowledge that it doesn't matter who you're up against, if you're 5-10% down you're pretty much cooked in this competition (and that's without last year's lessons).

The win against GCS was a very good win. West Coast was as it should be, but likewise. Melbourne and Essendon were horrible, Geelong was just OK to almost on par.

Noise versus reality is pretty full on at the moment. I can't remember a coach being so hammered by the media after a GF, two positive seasons in terms of win loss, and a bad start to a year at round five where we're a game behind the ledger.

Carlton were premiership favourites and holders of the magic close game win tonic until Saturday evening, when they had three kicked against them within ten to go after fluffing their lines. Next up are they beating GWS at home or Geelong at the MCG? They could be back to the pack any time now.

I just can't engage in this tiresome exposure of the game. Aside from it being not that important, it just doesn't release the endorphins like it should - win, lose or draw. Surely more exposure should have an almost direct correlation with the release of dopamine. Is anyone getting any dopamine?

[Grantysghost]

Dopeyamine if i listen to the afl media :cool:

(I'm here all week)