Using our resources.

[mjp]

Just a couple from me from the Freo game.

I sort of get the pile on - lot's of negativity on here - but Freo are pretty good and were always going to be a hard out. Some straight kicking in q3 when we were dominating could have made the difference, but whatchagonnado??

Just in terms of using our resources to their best advantage:

1/. Jones MUST be the deepest defender. When Buku and JOD were taken deep, bad stuff happened. It wasn't just Buku and it wasn't just JOD - it was both of them...Jones takes the deepest at ALL TIMES. He makes great mark vs spoil decisions and knows when to leave his man and when to stay and fight...it might be experience (I think it is a bit more than that) but in any case, he stays deep.

2/. Richards as a mid is a great CHANGE-UP. But we shouldn't be losing him from the defensive group completely. I don't get how we've gone from one extreme to the other with Ed...to me it is 7-mins back to 4-mins inside to 3 mins off rinse and repeat...we still need him behind the ball.

** Yes, I accept Liber's absence impacted here.

3/. Naughton. Can we please not be half-pregnant with him? He is either UP the ground or the deepest but we can't (surely) be asking him to do both. His running efforts were outrageous last night but if he is the D50 outlet then he can't ALSO be the primary inside 50m target. That said, making Darcy the prime i50 target is not a great plan right now....

** Yes, I accept Jamarra's absence impacted here.

4/. Bont. In close games, I think we have to match-up hunt with Bont. Flip him between roles - back, mid and forward - based on the matchup and do it QUICKLY. We have a weapon here but can't let it get stuck 'out of range' for so long.

5/. Garcia, West and and whoever else is playing forward. Get them up and around the ball...the mid mix still needs to be expanded...PLUS this will mean continually changing the look of the forward group re- size/shape. I think West is going ordinary right now but a couple of stints inside will not hurt. Garcia simply has to go in more or he may as well play VFL.

Overall, I thought we tried our butts off and "coulda" won it...life doesn't always fall the way you want it too though.

I have lots of thoughts about last night...overall, I thought we showed a LOT...

[Go_Dogs]

When Naughton marks on the wing and looks up and can’t kick it to himself he slows down and so does our team. We need Marra back as notwithstanding Darcy and Lobb can mark, they just don’t command the ball leading up like Marra and Naughton can (and even English can).

Agree on more midfield looks and Ed spending core time in the defensive group. We kinda need that group more settled. Imagine it changes a bit when Libba is back. Ed as a freshen up for 5 minutes in the mids here and there is great but not our mainstay.

Re Bont - also being on the bench for so long was a massive fail. Maybe he had an illness too? He wasn’t able to impact as much as normal.

[mjp]

Re Bont - also being on the bench for so long was a massive fail. Maybe he had an illness too? He wasn’t able to impact as much as normal.
Funny you mention this...when Liber went over I figured more would follow.

[mjp]

When Naughton marks on the wing and looks up and can’t kick it to himself he slows down and so does our team.

That's OK though. 'Cos we've exited the ball...job done. Naughton just needs to find a mark and we reset in whatever our slow ball movement play is called...

We have the firepower inside 50m to bring it to deck in a slow play situation...so if Naughton takes the mark at half back, that should be the cue for slow play.

[Go_Dogs]

That's OK though. 'Cos we've exited the ball...job done. Naughton just needs to find a mark and we reset in whatever our slow ball movement play is called...

We have the firepower inside 50m to bring it to deck in a slow play situation...so if Naughton takes the mark at half back, that should be the cue for slow play.

Good insight - don’t mind it, would be good to see us execute it!

[josie]

Thanks mjp-makes me feel a bit better. I also felt there was no want of effort and inacccuracy cost us.

Where was the piercing kicks, zig zagging across ground like last week? Was it we were low on confidence and/or Freo set up better?

[mjp]

Thanks mjp-makes me feel a bit better. I also felt there was no want of effort and inacccuracy cost us.

Where was the piercing kicks, zig zagging across ground like last week? Was it we were low on confidence and/or Freo set up better?

Watching, Freo got back in massive numbers...the Saints were a bit off last week (they're way better than they showed).

It's easy to say 'just kick through the zone' but they were really teasing the kicker on any attempt to change the lane and it would not have been easy...to be fair, we did the same and they also had trouble scoring.

Again - to me if we just have Jones deep at all times and kick straight in q3, we win. Even that mark Buku 'nearly' took in q4...that just 'felt' like a 'KILL' moment (as in, kill this, get it out of there). And I get that taking the mark is the 'ultimate' kill (and he 'nearly' took it) but as soon as it hit the deck it was a goal and that was a BIG MOMENT.

Again - on feel - he and JOD just aren't up to the moments we are trying to get them to play YET. Draper (Freo) is also not up to those moments...he was subbed out with a hamstring. I know this meant Luke Ryan had to fight out of his weight division but I would have actually preferred to see Richards trying to fight out of his weight class vs - say - Treacy - and Garcia in the mids than Buku and JOD in the last line. BUT - how are they going to learn if they never do it?

On the other hand, if Liber plays do Fyfe and Serong kill us at the stop like that??

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Let's face it, if we kicked accurately we'd still have lost as we'd have allowed a fairly quick reply. It's just what we do when we have nights like last night.

[mjp]

Let's face it, if we kicked accurately we'd still have lost as we'd have allowed a fairly quick reply. It's just what we do when we have nights like last night.

Please.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Please.

Please. There's always an out with this group isnt there?

They just aren't up to it. Why do we always look for excuses? I think the fans are fairly sick of it.

[Bullies]

Freo played through whoever was on Buku. We wasted a year on Buku playing him forward in the VFL when we should have left him down back for the year in the VFL learning how to defend. Watch Buku of the ball he has no touch on his opponents and when the opposition run and gun quickly he can't read the play and gets out of position. Just not sure playing in the 1's is the best way to learn this.

We also let Freo dictate how we moved the ball out of defence. It was not quick and allowed them time to zone. Not one person at times demanded the ball leaving the person kicking out second guessing and often resulting in a turnover. We needed to move the ball quicker from kick outs.

I think Freo are very average but it also says about where we are at. There doesn't appear to be a great deal of unity in the team.

[josie]

Thanks mjp.

[comrade]

It?s clear I know nothing about footy as last night wasn?t a night where I thought we showed much at all to be excited by, let alone showing LOTS.

[lemmon]

It?s clear I know nothing about footy as last night wasn?t a night where I thought we showed much at all to be excited by, let alone showing LOTS.

I thought last night was a decent indicator of where we're at as a side.

We stayed in the contest for most of the game despite getting belted 47-30 clearances, and 34-21 at stoppage clearances. Under Bevo at our best, we've been a side that relied on getting it done at the coal-face, with a slew of inside mids that'd dominate contested footy and rack up the disposals. I think we'd probably have been belted if we put up those numbers back in 2022.

I thought the effort was good - we laid 16 forward 50 tackles (+3 on our 2024 average) and had 45 one-percenters to Freo's 39 - but there was a real lack of connection between our mids and forwards. Some of that was Freo's team defence, but concerningly, some of that seems to be game style.

We clearly want to 'wheel and go', get it into our key forwards to contest and create repeat forward 50 stoppages. We did that pretty well, but we don't have the small forwards that get dangerous and actually put score on the board. It felt like we were bashing away with a mallet all night when something a bit more subtle was needed. Laith bombing to a contest in the last and burning Garcia in the pocket summed it all up.

I think this is a side that tries hard (most of the time) but the game style is in flux and there are obvious question marks on a bunch of players. Reckon we'll finish somewhere between 7-10.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It?s clear I know nothing about footy as last night wasn?t a night where I thought we showed much at all to be excited by, let alone showing LOTS.

We're very much mid. We're not AWFUL. Just mid.

The issue is we're making moves and making decisions like we're top 4. That's where the frustration lies.

[kruder]

I reckon Bont has been a bit off all year, his season is more 2022 than 21/23 he just hasn't had that sheen to his game as Bevo would call it.

Where do you think we are at MJP? I think the whole industry has no idea where we are at I just wonder whether or not the club does?Did you notice improved running power? I must say there was multiple reports of increased running preseason it just hasn't shone out in games just yet.

It feels like a refresh it just a question if the club and Bevo are on the same page.

[westbulldog]

It?s clear I know nothing about footy as last night wasn?t a night where I thought we showed much at all to be excited by, let alone showing LOTS.

31 clearances by Serong (17) Fyfe (7) Brayshaw (7) and just what were our tactics to stop this ?

[bornadog]

MJP do you think Buku and JOD were deliberately dragged back deep by their opponents and this effected how they played

[mjp]

MJP do you think Buku and JOD were deliberately dragged back deep by their opponents and this effected how they played

Yes - Of course they were...and 100%.

[bornadog]

Yes - Of course they were...and 100%.
What can you do to counter a move like that? I presume as a defender not much unless you are good enough to still defend

[Uninformed]

Do you think we would have done better playing Keath instead of JOD. Less dash, but maybe more reliable deep defence?

Like you, I thought there were lots of positives. I particularly like the evidence of Garcia's speed and evasive ability and clean ground ball gets.

(I think Bont. is, at a minimum, carrying an ankle problem and probably more.) Would like to see Garcia spend some time in the middle.

[Uninformed]

Do you think we would have done better playing Keath instead of JOD. Less dash, but maybe more reliable deep defence?

Like you, I thought there were lots of positives. I particularly like the evidence of Garcia's speed and evasive ability and clean ground ball gets.

(I think Bont. is, at a minimum, carrying an ankle problem and probably more.) Would like to see Garcia spend some time in the middle.

Freo are a decent side with Fyfe firing for the first time in a long time and the Darcy/Jackson combo. Serong is a gun.

[jeemak]

I'd be giving Keath a burst of six games with JOD and Jones next to him, and encouraging him to peel off and play the intercept game.

We brought him across after a year in the role at Adelaide and I think he could still offer us something. What I've seen of Khamis is fine, and there's something to work with but I fear his confidence is going to be cooked after that and a month or so at the lower level will do him good.

[macca]

We need to invesr games into Garcia
There qas one passage od play at halfback in the last quarter where he received a terruble handleball amomgst 3 Freo players. Somehow evade them , turned around , kept poessession and kick in onto the wing.

I am a bit perplexed with what to do wirh Khamis ??? Do we develop him in vfl to be better 1:1 as the 2nd best defender? His lack of footy IQ showed on sat night. His still RAW.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What can you do to counter a move like that? I presume as a defender not much unless you are good enough to still defend

Drop an extra back

[josie]

Try and attract Dale Morris back to club or another top ex back man to coach Buku and JOD. Maybe Jones is imparting some of his knowledge but we need to fast track Buku and JOD (& Buss if he is staying with us).

[1eyedog]

Watching, Freo got back in massive numbers...the Saints were a bit off last week (they're way better than they showed).

It's easy to say 'just kick through the zone' but they were really teasing the kicker on any attempt to change the lane and it would not have been easy...to be fair, we did the same and they also had trouble scoring.

Again - to me if we just have Jones deep at all times and kick straight in q3, we win. Even that mark Buku 'nearly' took in q4...that just 'felt' like a 'KILL' moment (as in, kill this, get it out of there). And I get that taking the mark is the 'ultimate' kill (and he 'nearly' took it) but as soon as it hit the deck it was a goal and that was a BIG MOMENT.

Again - on feel - he and JOD just aren't up to the moments we are trying to get them to play YET. Draper (Freo) is also not up to those moments...he was subbed out with a hamstring. I know this meant Luke Ryan had to fight out of his weight division but I would have actually preferred to see Richards trying to fight out of his weight class vs - say - Treacy - and Garcia in the mids than Buku and JOD in the last line. BUT - how are they going to learn if they never do it?

On the other hand, if Liber plays do Fyfe and Serong kill us at the stop like that??

We're full of almost opportunities they've been happening for 6 years. We never execute in clutch moments, we never seem to come from behind and take the game and we never seem ro win the close ones or 'hang tough'.

It's the sum of our parts and an accumulative affect over years.

I'd be fine if it was just one game, or 6 games or one season but it's not.

[Grantysghost]

Try and attract Dale Morris back to club or another top ex back man to coach Buku and JOD. Maybe Jones is imparting some of his knowledge but we need to fast track Buku and JOD (& Buss if he is staying with us).
I think he moved up north for family reasons Josie so the Lions job was a bonus.

[Grantysghost]

I'd be giving Keath a burst of six games with JOD and Jones next to him, and encouraging him to peel off and play the intercept game.

We brought him across after a year in the role at Adelaide and I think he could still offer us something. What I've seen of Khamis is fine, and there's something to work with but I fear his confidence is going to be cooked after that and a month or so at the lower level will do him good.
He looked good in the VFL game i saw live (willy). I wanted him in after that.
Buku - he's improving no doubt, but might be time for a spell.

[Mantis]

I'd be giving Keath a burst of six games with JOD and Jones next to him, and encouraging him to peel off and play the intercept game.

We brought him across after a year in the role at Adelaide and I think he could still offer us something. What I've seen of Khamis is fine, and there's something to work with but I fear his confidence is going to be cooked after that and a month or so at the lower level will do him good.

I'd rather we go with Buss... Keath is 32, Buss is 20.

We need to look forward, not back.. if Jones gets injured then we play Keath but otherwise we need to fast-track the new breed as quickly as we can.

[GVGjr]

I'd be giving Keath a burst of six games with JOD and Jones next to him, and encouraging him to peel off and play the intercept game.

We brought him across after a year in the role at Adelaide and I think he could still offer us something. What I've seen of Khamis is fine, and there's something to work with but I fear his confidence is going to be cooked after that and a month or so at the lower level will do him good.

My only concern with Keath is his mobility and if it's going to be exposed more at the senior level but he is a good option to have.
I'd also consider Gardner who's now fit enough to play and of course we could take a chance and debut Busslinger although I don't think he's done quite enough just yet.

It's going to be a very interesting week with our selections.

[Mofra]

My only concern with Keath is his mobility and if it's going to be exposed more at the senior level but he is a good option to have.
I'd also consider Gardner who's now fit enough to play and of course we could take a chance and debut Busslinger although I don't think he's done quite enough just yet.

It's going to be a very interesting week with our selections.
Keath still looks pretty mobile from the VFL footage I've seen.
I'm not sure Buks gets dropped off one bad game.

[Countrydog5]

Watching, Freo got back in massive numbers...the Saints were a bit off last week (they're way better than they showed).

It's easy to say 'just kick through the zone' but they were really teasing the kicker on any attempt to change the lane and it would not have been easy...to be fair, we did the same and they also had trouble scoring.

Again - to me if we just have Jones deep at all times and kick straight in q3, we win. Even that mark Buku 'nearly' took in q4...that just 'felt' like a 'KILL' moment (as in, kill this, get it out of there). And I get that taking the mark is the 'ultimate' kill (and he 'nearly' took it) but as soon as it hit the deck it was a goal and that was a BIG MOMENT.

Again - on feel - he and JOD just aren't up to the moments we are trying to get them to play YET. Draper (Freo) is also not up to those moments...he was subbed out with a hamstring. I know this meant Luke Ryan had to fight out of his weight division but I would have actually preferred to see Richards trying to fight out of his weight class vs - say - Treacy - and Garcia in the mids than Buku and JOD in the last line. BUT - how are they going to learn if they never do it?

On the other hand, if Liber plays do Fyfe and Serong kill us at the stop like that??

I found myself shouting KILL at the TV at least once, but I can't recall if that was the moment or not. There was also an instance where I think JJ? was pressured inside the 9 and instead of rushing it for a behind he attempted to clear on his opposite foot and kicked it out on the full, leading to a shot on goal. It's moments like those where I can see we're not smart enough in a number of areas with just common sense footy stuff that relieves pressure and allows us to set up across the ground. Unfortunately that can only really be a coaching issue, as players need to have that stuff drilled into them repeatedly so we know what to do in those situations that help relieve pressure, set up defensively, hold it in our half of the ground etc. Frustrating to watch as a lover of the fundamentals.

[Bullies]

Keath still looks pretty mobile from the VFL footage I've seen.
I'm not sure Buks gets dropped off one bad game. I agree on Keath. I'm just not sure we can afford to play Buku when we come up against the top teams when they have more than one good forward. He just gets turned inside out by opponents. No perception or touch as to where they are. When he had a few minutes against Jeremy Cameron the other week he had no idea and although he is not the only that has happened to on Jeremy I am just not sure we can persist until he learns the art of defending.

[Ozza]

We're full of almost opportunities they've been happening for 6 years. We never execute in clutch moments, we never seem to come from behind and take the game and we never seem ro win the close ones or 'hang tough'.

It's the sum of our parts and an accumulative affect over years.

I'd be fine if it was just one game, or 6 games or one season but it's not.

You're right. Late in the game on Saturday night, EVERY bulldog supporter knew we were going to continue to bang the ball in to an overcrowded forward line repeatedly until such time as a turnover led to an end to end goal where the opposition get us out the back.

We've been watching this garbage happen forever.

In terms of the positional discussion - regardless of whether Naughton is suited deep forward, high forward - whatever - we currently have a huge issue in defence.

Currently we are absolutely no chance in the air in D50 unless our 33 year old fullback gets there to spoil. No chance. So if Jones gets injured, and when he retires - answer me this - what is our plan then? Because the ball is not going to stop coming in there. It generally comes in pretty easily after our 3-4 tall forwards all contest for the same ball and then its run out.

[bornadog]

Currently we are absolutely no chance in the air in D50 unless our 33 year old fullback gets there to spoil. No chance. So if Jones gets injured, and when he retires - answer me this - what is our plan then? Because the ball is not going to stop coming in there. It generally comes in pretty easily after our 3-4 tall forwards all contest for the same ball and then it’s run out.
Don’t agree. Jones is 2nd for intercept marks and Buku 10th in AFL. Buku a shocker on Saturday but he has been pretty good to date

[Ozza]

Don’t agree. Jones is 2nd for intercept marks and Buku 10th in AFL. Buku a shocker on Saturday but he has been pretty good to date

So my post is pretty clear that Jones is outstanding. The question was also clear that it was a matter of who can help Jones and who can replace him given he is 33 years old.

In relation to Buku, he can intercept - but can't defend - and he shouldn't have to be 'Jones like' - he should be able to play 'Easton Wood-like' and not play on a big.

O'Donnell doesn't have the experience or strength to be on a quality big right now.

[bornadog]

So my post is pretty clear that Jones is outstanding. The question was also clear that it was a matter of who can help Jones and who can replace him given he is 33 years old.

In relation to Buku, he can intercept - but can't defend - and he shouldn't have to be 'Jones like' - he should be able to play 'Easton Wood-like' and not play on a big.

O'Donnell doesn't have the experience or strength to be on a quality big right now.

Well looks like we need to have Gardner back in, because the cupboard is bare. Keath was cooked two years ago

[comrade]

You're right. Late in the game on Saturday night, EVERY bulldog supporter knew we were going to continue to bang the ball in to an overcrowded forward line repeatedly until such time as a turnover led to an end to end goal where the opposition get us out the back.

We've been watching this garbage happen forever.

In terms of the positional discussion - regardless of whether Naughton is suited deep forward, high forward - whatever - we currently have a huge issue in defence.

Currently we are absolutely no chance in the air in D50 unless our 33 year old fullback gets there to spoil. No chance. So if Jones gets injured, and when he retires - answer me this - what is our plan then? Because the ball is not going to stop coming in there. It generally comes in pretty easily after our 3-4 tall forwards all contest for the same ball and then its run out.

It?s ridiculous we are so overloaded with talls forward of centre, yet devoid of height in defence. Play Naughton back ffs, it solves multiple problems and should have been done years ago.

[lemmon]

So my post is pretty clear that Jones is outstanding. The question was also clear that it was a matter of who can help Jones and who can replace him given he is 33 years old.

In relation to Buku, he can intercept - but can't defend - and he shouldn't have to be 'Jones like' - he should be able to play 'Easton Wood-like' and not play on a big.

O'Donnell doesn't have the experience or strength to be on a quality big right now.

I think you're right and Freo really exposed that.

I love what O'Donnell could be in that he kicks the ball beautifully (despite a few errors on Saturday) and is a great combination of size and mobility, but he looked all at sea when Jackson had him isolated deep.

In some ways I'd be more inclined to persist with JOD over Buku because I think he has the higher ceiling, but Buku has been pretty good before Saturday and deserves another crack with some more mature support around him.

[Ozza]

Well looks like we need to have Gardner back in, because the cupboard is bare. Keath was cooked two years ago

Thats a solution for a week. Fills a gap. But its not what is putting us on a path to a premiership.

The misuse of resources is atrocious.

To go and recruit Lobb, knowing Darcy and Jamarra are there - and not address the defensive end of the ground is staggering.

Meanwhile, Buku should be 12-18 months advanced in his development as an intercept defender - but despite the above, we inexplicably played him as a fwd/ruck in the VFL for a year and a half.

[Sedat]

We're full of almost opportunities they've been happening for 6 years. We never execute in clutch moments, we never seem to come from behind and take the game and we never seem ro win the close ones or 'hang tough'.

It's the sum of our parts and an accumulative affect over years.

I'd be fine if it was just one game, or 6 games or one season but it's not.
Yep. Despite all the head-scratching week-to-week selections and funky player development we have undertaken since the start of 2022 (which Bevo deserves to be strongly critiqued for), we have been deep in as many games as Collingwood in that time. Not being able to close the deal has been an endemic issue for us, one that we are still grappling with finding a solution to.

It's not about losing to Freo in isolation this weekend - they are a good team, especially at home - it is about reinforcing the obvious trend of a team who cannot cash in fully when we have momentum in game, and at the same time being unable to curb opposition momentum when it is their turn. It's so far beyond the frustrating phase that it has now moved to acceptance.

Is changing the senior coach going to automatically change this? It might, it might not. The time to do this was 12 months ago IMO. To his credit this year, Bevo is searching for a better way and not reverting to the status quo, be it player personnel or tactical alterations. It's probably going to hurt him but it's the right thing to do - yes I know he still could do more and doesn't always pull the right reins in game. Ultimately the buck stops with the senor coach, there's no debate about that.

At some stage though, the spotlight will have to fall onto the senior core of players, who Bevo has shown incredible faith and trust in. Bevo will get sacked if we miss finals this year and the players who have continued to let us down in big moments will have nowhere to hide. My suspicion is that they have been permanently psychologically damaged from the 16.4.100 to 1.1.7 disintegration in the last 40 mins of the 2021 GF - quite possibly the senior coach (and maybe even the club as a whole) has been damaged by that as well.

[Mofra]

I think you're right and Freo really exposed that.

I love what O'Donnell could be in that he kicks the ball beautifully (despite a few errors on Saturday) and is a great combination of size and mobility, but he looked all at sea when Jackson had him isolated deep.

In some ways I'd be more inclined to persist with JOD over Buku because I think he has the higher ceiling, but Buku has been pretty good before Saturday and deserves another crack with some more mature support around him.
JOD has played 15 games in his career and he plays like a promising kid who has played 15 games in his career.
The question is do we keep him in or go to Keath? Right now I think most of us are happy to wear the positioning/holding errors now because the reward down the track will be worth it, so JOD gets the nod.
Keath isn't as bad as he seems to be portrayed on here and he's first in if Jones misses.

Buks is what he is - an intercepting defender who isn't going to win one on ones against genuine KPFs who are substantially bigger and stronger than him. If he gets to play to 'what he is', he's top 10 in the AFL for intercept marks. If teams isolate him and play through him with a CHF, he's going to get beaten. To me that's a system issue and not a player issue.

[mighty_west]

Well looks like we need to have Gardner back in, because the cupboard is bare. Keath was cooked two years ago

I'm more than happy to get Gardner back in being our poor mans Dale Morris to simply lock down and spoil, always works his butt off, really like what Buku has shown so far but we need a key defensive tagger in which Gardy brings, problem with Keath is that he's just too slow and too indecisive with ball in hand, get's himself in a pickle most times, think he's also a decent option as that spoiler too but just use his first option with ball at all costs, i see him as break glass option but if the younger blokes aren't working out yet then why not.

[JanLorMill]

We want a 3rd tall defender to replace a young developing Khamis then why we looking at Gardner or Keath?
Busslinger or Cleary are like for like replacements.

[bornadog]

Thats a solution for a week. Fills a gap. But its not what is putting us on a path to a premiership.

The misuse of resources is atrocious.

To go and recruit Lobb, knowing Darcy and Jamarra are there - and not address the defensive end of the ground is staggering.

Meanwhile, Buku should be 12-18 months advanced in his development as an intercept defender - but despite the above, we inexplicably played him as a fwd/ruck in the VFL for a year and a half.

Buss, JOD, Croft all recruited for that backline role.

[Happy Days]

I'd rather we go with Buss... Keath is 32, Buss is 20.

We need to look forward, not back.. if Jones gets injured then we play Keath but otherwise we need to fast-track the new breed as quickly as we can.

From what I?ve seen Buss is going better than Keath anyway.

[mjp]

From what I?ve seen Buss is going better than Keath anyway.

He very well might be, but I still think we need an experienced defender right now.

[Grantysghost]

Buss, JOD, Croft all recruited for that backline role.
Not sure re Croft he was a forward/ruck

[bornadog]

Not sure re Croft he was a forward/ruck

How many can we have

[Grantysghost]

How many can we have
Now you're feeling it

[azabob]

How many can we have


Now you're feeling it

Isn’t Croft also playing as a defender?

[bornadog]

Isn’t Croft also playing as a defender?
That's what I said but GG doesn't agree

[Grantysghost]

That's what I said but GG doesn't agree

I think i meant (i dont know what i mean most of thw time) he was playing as a forward / ruck when we recruited him.

He played forward v Willy although I think weve mainly played him back.

He's got amazing athelticism for a big man, runs like a gazelle! Not sure he's a natural defender but probably more so than Darcy.

[kruder]

Isn’t Croft also playing as a defender?

Played 50/50 so far, needs to remain in defence.

[azabob]

I think i meant (i dont know what i mean most of thw time) he was playing as a forward / ruck when we recruited him.

He played forward v Willy although I think weve mainly played him back.

He's got amazing athelticism for a big man, runs like a gazelle! Not sure he's a natural defender but probably more so than Darcy.

If he is not being developed as a defender why on earth did we recruit him?

[GVGjr]

Isn’t Croft also playing as a defender?

He's been doing a mixture of both roles.

[kruder]

If he is not being developed as a defender why on earth did we recruit him?

I raised this in the VFL thread on Saturday, the reason he has been forward is for team balance. Buss, Gardy and Keath have been deep so there isn't room for him. He was having a tough time of it so we swapped him with Gardy and it worked well, he took a few nice intercepting marks while Gardy actually hit the scoreboard.

He must be deveopled in defence at all costs hence if we need to find another role for Keath/Gardy then so be it. While we are on the topic Keath has been moving well the last few weeks he looks fitter then Gardy but you still have to hold your breath while he has ball in hand.

Buss looks great with ball in hand and has improved the last fortnight but he isn't dominating in the air, I still think he is well of the pace.

[Grantysghost]

If he is not being developed as a defender why on earth did we recruit him?
I think we are

[jeemak]

My only concern with Keath is his mobility and if it's going to be exposed more at the senior level but he is a good option to have.
I'd also consider Gardner who's now fit enough to play and of course we could take a chance and debut Busslinger although I don't think he's done quite enough just yet.

It's going to be a very interesting week with our selections.

Keath isn't the most mobile, though he can play 95% plus game time and can actually defend.

[D Mitchell]

When Keath joined us, I liked it that he had performed well as an intercept defender with the Crows and, having been a cricketer, didn't have the wear and tear at 27 years that others that age have. Ironic that he's now injury plagued. I hope that doesn't happen to O'Donnell.

[muzzyahoy]

I'm loving everyone's opinions on the defense and defensive structure, but I feel like we are over-looking our most major issues here.
The way our stoppage, clearance and and centre bounce groups lose structure without the ball is so glaring as our most major issue, it doesn't even seem to matter what our off/def do in regard to that. Our inability to maintain width and balance when we lose the battle for the loose ball is painful to watch, as I'm sure it is for all supporters when it happens to their teams. The way we get so one track minded for the ball as a collective, and then if we lose the contest lack the ability to switch gears and become defensive is by far the most frustrating element of this Team, and it has been so since 2017, IMO.

How you combat this has got me beat, but I think, defensively, we have too many offensively-minded defensemen. For every Bailey Dale, Jason Johannisen and Ed Richards, you need their defensive counterparts. That can be the same player, who is equally as committed to working as hard back on defense as he is trying to get forward for cheap snags. We lack that in our defensive group, but we more so lack that in our midfielders. Until we have a list that is willing to have the maturity to do this, we aren't going anywhere.

Thoughts?

[mjp]

...We lack that in our defensive group, but we more so lack that in our midfielders. Until we have a list that is willing to have the maturity to do this, we aren't going anywhere.

Thoughts?

But it's the same for every side...

Which group of mids is defensively minded? I know we are all highly critical of our group in this area but tell me which teams play with a defensively minded group of mids?

[muzzyahoy]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

Great conversation and great post muzzyahoy... Gotta post more mate, some really interesting views here!

[mjp]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

I guess I get what you're saying. But I still want to challenge you to tell me what team - realistically - does what you're asking for. For example, we played Freo on the weekend...who out of Fyfe, Serong and Brayshaw is doing what you ask? None of them. Fyfe is legendary for winning brownlows and never defending. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player.

No team in the AFL does what you are looking for...they just don't.

You mention the Giants? Please. Green, Coniglio, Kelly etc - they haven't run defensively since Auskick...they are the ones with the ball. You mention Geelong? Are you trying to tell me Dangerfield runs defensively? Please.

Geelong and the Giants have a better structure/players (take your choice - Stewart and Taylor cover up for a LOT of mistakes) behind the ball which gives the mids more time...

If you want to criticise our guys for getting killed at the stop on the weekend - have at it. But they 100% push back to defend...could we do with some more legspeed in there to assist with the defensive running? Of course - and we've all been saying that. Liber, Macrae and Bont are mid-paced (generous) and getting in and out of the stop and into the next phase is not simple.

[Mofra]

But it's the same for every side...

Which group of mids is defensively minded? I know we are all highly critical of our group in this area but tell me which teams play with a defensively minded group of mids?
Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.

[Mofra]

When Keath joined us, I liked it that he had performed well as an intercept defender with the Crows and, having been a cricketer, didn't have the wear and tear at 27 years that others that age have. Ironic that he's now injury plagued. I hope that doesn't happen to O'Donnell.
Keath gave up football after barely being able to walk for two years as a Suns listed player. It's a miracle he got back to any high level sport, let alone AFL level.

[Bulldog Joe]

Keath gave up football after barely being able to walk for two years as a Suns listed player. It's a miracle he got back to any high level sport, let alone AFL level.

Didn't Keath reject the Suns for cricket?

I don't believe he ever went there for football.

[Sedat]

Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.
Yep, that's why Carlton got a Hewett type to better balance out their mids. And presumably why we got Harmes - if only we used him in the role he is actually competent at.

[mjp]

Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.

Having Stewart sweeping up everything behind the ball papers over a lot of cracks.

Adelaide pumped it inside 50m 60 times against the Cats...which backline in the comp can stand up to that...

[lemmon]

Yep, that's why Carlton got a Hewett type to better balance out their mids. And presumably why we got Harmes - if only we used him in the role he is actually competent at.

Isn't Hewett just Carlton's Tom Liberatore?

The bloke is a bloody good midfielder in his own right - he's averaging 24 touches and six clearances per game this year. Agree that he tackles and does the defensive stuff, but he's a lot more than just that and wins a lot of his own ball at the coal face.

I can't really think of a purely defensive midfielder - I'm thinking a Ryan Crowley type - getting a consistent game in the AFL anymore.

[Grantysghost]

Having Stewart sweeping up everything behind the ball papers over a lot of cracks.

Adelaide pumped it inside 50m 60 times against the Cats...which backline in the comp can stand up to that...

Demons?

I think the best teams don't purely rely on stoppage score. Sometimes I wonder if Melbourne even care half as much as other teams when they can trust what's behind so readily.

It's what makes their system the best in the competition I think.

If only they had a forward line. Van Rooyen is super important to them.

[mjp]

Isn't Hewett just Carlton's Tom Liberatore?

The bloke is a bloody good midfielder in his own right - he's averaging 24 touches and six clearances per game this year. Agree that he tackles and does the defensive stuff, but he's a lot more than just that and wins a lot of his own ball at the coal face.

I can't really think of a purely defensive midfielder - I'm thinking a Ryan Crowley type - getting a consistent game in the AFL anymore.

I guess Geelong use Atkins but he is more defensive cover/blood and guts than a Crowley type player...He does give balance though and is often the mid a surge kick behind the contest offering support to the backs...the Cats as a rule find a way to get a plus 1 defensively (and THEN they make sure Stewart is the plus).

Carlton don't use Hewett as a defender at all...I don't get that narrative. They are as 'run forward' as any team going around and hence are apt to leak goals on t/o for 10-minute blocks of games...

[mjp]

Demons?



Yeah. May and Lever are bloody good.

No doubt Geelong and the Dees are hard to score against.

[SquirrelGrip]

So back to the OP. Who are our resources and how are we best to use them this week?

I'd still use Ed half on midfield rotations (and half defensive rotations), the first time with Libba back, so it would be interesting how it might work.
With Jamarra back, in the main I'd keep him and Darce deep with Naughton roaming high.
Garcia and Harmes should come into the midfield rotations too.

The wings have worried me all year. Gags and Williams have been our main too, but I think Gags needs a rest and it wouldn't surprise me to see Poulter in the starting 22 tonight ahead of Baker. I can't figure out why Macrae couldn't turn himself into a winger in a Steele Sidebottom or Angus Brayshaw sort of way.

Caleb of course is jack of all trades but master of none at the moment. He was allegedly on Serong for parts of the second half last week. A dedicated role on Newcombe wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but just stop moving him around!!



Western Bulldogs V Hawthorn
FB
[20] Ed Richards, [19] Liam Jones, [31] Bailey Dale
HB
[15] Taylor Duryea, [24] Buku Khamis, [39] Jason Johannisen
C
[34] Bailey Williams, [1] Adam Treloar, [22] James Harmes
HF
[23] Laitham Vandermeer, [33] Aaron Naughton, [38] Riley Garcia
FF
[10] Sam Darcy, [2] Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, [8] Charlie Clarke
FOL
[44] Tim English, [4] Marcus Bontempelli, [21] Tom Liberatore
INT
[18] James O'Donnell, [29] Lachlan Bramble, [35] Caleb Daniel, [25] Caleb Poulter, [11] Jack Macrae,
[7] Rory Lobb, [12] Harvey Gallagher, [13] Oskar Baker

[Mofra]

Having Stewart sweeping up everything behind the ball papers over a lot of cracks.

Adelaide pumped it inside 50m 60 times against the Cats...which backline in the comp can stand up to that...
Not too facetious, but clean or dirty entries?

If I'm being honest I'm more jealous of their forwardline than anything else.