Do we give 'RECYCLED PLAYERS' a fair go??

[mjp]

Just a question.

As supporters, do we give players we recruit from other clubs a fair go? Or do we jump on them WAY quicker than we would if they had been drafted by the club?

I guess I'm talking about the current crop - Lobb, Bramble, Harmes et al - but you could also include Treloar, Hannan, Lloyd etc.

I mean, was I surprised we signed Bramble? Somewhat...but I don't think it's fair to say every time he does something you don't like that he is hopeless, that being delisted by Hawthorn somehow PROVES he is hopeless and that he needs to be replaced...

Likewise the others.

I know Lobb is a touch point right now - and he wasn't great vs Freo - but I'm not sure he's much different to the player we recruited. Everyone points at the 2022 season when he kicked a few goals, but over the rest of his career he's pretty much performed the way he is for us. I mean, I'm not sure he gave us too many sleepless nights back when he was playing for the orange and we beat them in the 2016 finals. He was recruited for depth, he gives us depth...do I wish he was better? Of course, but it's not personal...

Even Treloar - who I openly admit I was against trading for and have taken a while to warm to...he's dead set one of us now and has been playing some unbelievable footy...but it just feels that we don't really embrace him as our own. As far as I can tell, he's a well-liked team-mate who does everything right and tries hard to connect with members etc....

Thoughts?

[Happy Days]

Once guys get the stink of not being wanted by another club on them, it’s really hard to shake.

[Mofra]

In the past few years I'm not sure we give many of our players a fair go, really. Even Dunkley got death threats in his second year with us. People not just forced Ryan Gardner off social media, they tracked down his family and abused them too. It can get pretty savage out there.

TBH if we get a handful of half-decent games from any PSD pick, that a win. Zero draft cost and (presumably) base salary for a guy who is contributing should be celebrated.

I'm still not sold on Harmes but I think that's in some respect a 'coaching' issue because the second half on Saturday night seems the perfect time to unleash him into the defensive mid role we know he can do.

Treloar was damn near our BOG in the Grand Final which, because we want to wash that game from memory, he never gets credit for. He has actually stood up when it mattered.

[mighty_west]

As far as i'm concerned once they pull on the tri-colours, they're one of us and whoever they played with is irrelevant, yeah even if we snagged Toby, geez we hate him and i can't stand him too but if he came to us and played the way he does now we'd love him in no time, well i know i would, for me it's all about how a player impacts our team and not just as an individual, i'll judge Macrae, VDM, Scott, McNeal as much as Treloar, Baker, Bramble or Keath for instance.

[GVGjr]

Across the competition there appears to be quite a few players that don't get the chances they probably deserve at some clubs and are desperate for opportunities at others.

Lobb hasn't quite worked out as well as we would have hoped for but he was absolutely the right decision to try and bring in.
A couple of things have worked against him:
He went from being the #1 key forward at Fremantle kicking 36 goals to the #3 key forward with us which has proven to be a difficult transition for him. He probably played injured a bit last year as well
The other challenge has been the earlier than anticipated arrival of Sam Darcy as a forward/ruckman.

I said it at the time we recruited him that we really needed him more in 2022 knowing that Bruce wasn't going to play.

Are we using him the right way? Probably not but he didn't really grasp his chances.

With Harmes we seem to have changed our mind about how we might best use him in between the preseason and the start of the H&A season. That's probably due to his fitness and very much to do with his form over summer.
I see him very much as a spare parts player and I think that is okay.

I like the Bramble inclusion as he has a bit of a point of difference with his running ability. Well worth adding him to the squad but there is still some work to do with him.

Baker and Poulter can go from good performances to poor ones so quickly so you can understand why their clubs let them go and probably why we think we can get some improvement from them.

Treloar was an interesting inclusion to our list when it happened because we already had an impressive midfield and his inclusion meant we had to spread out the workload perhaps a bit further than what is ideal but once Dunkley left Treloar was a more vital player for us. I think he has ended up being a great addition for the club.

I like the way we identified Ryan Gardner and even though he's not necessarily a first string player he's a solid option for us.

Overall I think we have plans for the players we target from other clubs but it's not always going to work.

[GVGjr]

In the past few years I'm not sure we give many of our players a fair go, really. Even Dunkley got death threats in his second year with us. People not just forced Ryan Gardner off social media, they tracked down his family and abused them too. It can get pretty savage out there.

TBH if we get a handful of half-decent games from any PSD pick, that a win. Zero draft cost and (presumably) base salary for a guy who is contributing should be celebrated.

I'm still not sold on Harmes but I think that's in some respect a 'coaching' issue because the second half on Saturday night seems the perfect time to unleash him into the defensive mid role we know he can do.

Treloar was damn near our BOG in the Grand Final which, because we want to wash that game from memory, he never gets credit for. He has actually stood up when it mattered.

Thanks for sharing. I hate reading about things like what you described with Gardner. I've talked to him a little bit at VFL games and at training and he's a nice bloke. No one should be subjected to that rubbish.

[Grantysghost]

Billy Gowers has entered the chat.

[Mofra]

Thanks for sharing. I hate reading about things like what you described with Gardner. I've talked to him a little bit at VFL games and at training and he's a nice bloke. No one should be subjected to that rubbish.
100%. Especially a bloke who had a shot, got delisted, and worked his arse off for a second chance.
Once upon a time we would have celebrated a guy who worked that hard.

[hujsh]

I think the club gives recycled players a very fair go. I feel like we as fans, if they don't prove to be more than fringe players, are more harsh towards them because there's a perception their ceiling is limited. A 'list clogger' if you will. It's probably not fair. There's less talent to go around with the extra clubs so you probably do need the odd Ryan Gardner or similar fringe players on the list to fill gaps while the younger guys develop.

[GVGjr]

100%. Especially a bloke who had a shot, got delisted, and worked his arse off for a second chance.
Once upon a time we would have celebrated a guy who worked that hard.

Our supporters used to rally around the battlers, the guys that worked a bit harder to be a part of our club. Not sure what motivates some people to believe it's their job to target our players.

[ReLoad]

There is quite a few Bullgods that were recycles.

They will most certainly never be spoken of in anything other than the highest of high praises.

[angelopetraglia]

I thought we fully supported Jade Rawlings. Fully behind him when he kicked seven goals on debut with us. But the support fell away as he missed a shot from 30m out directly in front in the last quarter that cost us the game. Damn you Ashley Sampi!

[josie]

Unfortunately there are a few keyboard bullies out there.

I think Treloar has been great for us. Plus he has really embraced the club.

Lobb I?ve not given up on yet. Same for Harmes although early signs are not great.

Baker and Bramble I?m on the fence with but their speed/dash is a point of difference and we can?t rely solely on the lotto that late draft picks offer.

Poulter I?m still hopeful for. He has a beautiful long kick and kinda glides a bit like Bailey Dale.

Gardner is ok as depth.

Keath was great in his first few years so was worth it.

Wish we could pick gems after early draft picks as well as say Geelong seems to do well.

I do question why we offer more than 2 years for some of the recycled players but maybe we have to offer that to attract them.

I said elsewhere I think we tend to hold onto fringe types too long (and I?d add to that we also do not give some fringe players the multiple opportunities others are given). I?m sure there?s valid reasons but I think it?s generally not worked in our favour.

There?s a lot been said about our bottom 6 being below par and I don?t disagree with that. I?d also say our top/mid tier players outside Bont, Libba, Treloar, Jones and maybe Richards, don?t consistently perform eg English, Naughts against really top teams - possibly due to our poor delivery inside F50, Williams, Dale, etc. (again I use Geelong as an example).

[jeemak]

In the past few years I'm not sure we give many of our players a fair go, really. Even Dunkley got death threats in his second year with us. People not just forced Ryan Gardner off social media, they tracked down his family and abused them too. It can get pretty savage out there.


It's horrible, though this did make me laugh when I read it.

The lengths people will go to in order to let off steam amazes me.

[soupman]

I think it's less a recycled player thing specifically and more we seem very harsh on players that have limitations.

Maybe we are spoiled having some pretty amazing top end players, but we have been so harsh on fringe guys of late regardless of origin. Couple this with the fact the only clubs good "recycled" players go to aren't us, means that everyone we recruit through that avenue falls straight in the "yeah but we need to upgrade him if we want to be serious", despite Biggs, Hamling, Roberts, Roughead, Cordy, hell even Tom Boyd all being direct proof that they don't actually need to be that good.

[Scorlibo]

Personally I'll support every player that steps out in the R, W & B no matter where they've come from. At the end of the day every player arrives from another club, even the draftees. I will say though that there is a certain almost paternal instinct that comes with players who join us through the draft. You've seen a big part of their journey, their growth, and when they begin to succeed it vindicates the Club's development program, which is great to see.

The circumstances of the player leaving do probably play a part in how they're viewed subconsciously. We praise our senior team players when they show loyalty and play their careers through with us, and on the flip side guys that have abandoned a senior spot in their old team probably have to do a bit more to earn that respect. Every Lobb or Bruce for us is a Dunkley or Griffen to another team. Whereas someone like Treloar who's been sold like an animal in a stockyard is easier to embrace straight away.

From a club and match committee perspective, perhaps some frustration has crept in as a result of the inordinate amount of opportunity that has been given to players from other clubs, sometimes at the expense of incumbent players. Bevo was a journeyman as a player and that's maybe informed his outlook on the value that recycled players can provide. He always seems to give the new guys a heap of opportunity.

[ledge]

Just because clubs delist players it doesn’t mean they aren’t any good, other reasons are they don’t fit the game plan or they have too many the same type.
I’m a supporter of Lobb I think he is a decoy that has to be watched and can ruck better than English.
Bramble we got for run and he does , he just isn’t getting his delivery right.
Baker I think was the first player we got in looking at the pace side of the game, I think he is treated harshly he is great as an outside wing with pace and can kick goals.
Poulter is a strange one I haven’t made up my mind on him , he seems very laid back but always puts in a reasonable game.
Treloar from the start was a huge get to me and I have always been an admirer.
Gardner is our honest fill in player .
Keath I would have in before Khamis atm.
Jones was a huge get.

[bornadog]

To answer the OP, I think many supporters don't give recycled players a fair go. I think we are more critical of them compared to players that have come through the draft.

Treloar for me has been one of the best gets for a very long time. Initially, I thought the Lobb move was good, because we needed a second ruck. We had to stop using the likes of Dunkley, Hannan, etc in that role, however, no one knew Sam Darcy was going to come on so well.

So in essence, the recycled players are there to fill holes in gaps around the ground, but supporters can also be harsher on them - I know I am sometimes.

[Danjul]

Just because clubs delist players it doesn?t mean they aren?t any good, other reasons are they don?t fit the game plan or they have too many the same type.
I?m a supporter of Lobb I think he is a decoy that has to be watched and can ruck better than English.
Bramble we got for run and he does , he just isn?t getting his delivery right.
Baker I think was the first player we got in looking at the pace side of the game, I think he is treated harshly he is great as an outside wing with pace and can kick goals.
Poulter is a strange one I haven?t made up my mind on him , he seems very laid back but always puts in a reasonable game.
Treloar from the start was a huge get to me and I have always been an admirer.
Gardner is our honest fill in player .
Keath I would have in before Khamis atm.
Jones was a huge get.
I agree with you about Baker. He has had some great moments but they don?t put credit in his account. We seem to be looking for reasons to drop him. I don?t think he is suited to our game plan though. He has obviously been trained in a faster ball movement environment. He frequently makes position for the line breaking run but is ignored. I have seen this on numerous occasions.

Also, our slow boundary hugging transitions out of defence allow opponents to corral our runners. Williams spends too much of his time trying to salvage control of the footy between the boundary line and two opponents instead of generating real momentum. Baker has found himself in the same position and struggled to play his natural game there too.

[Jeanette54]

Speaking of "recycled players", our current best defender had to go to another club in order to be played in his best position. Where do we regard Liam Jones in the pantheon of your question.

[hujsh]

Speaking of "recycled players", our current best defender had to go to another club in order to be played in his best position. Where do we regard Liam Jones in the pantheon of your question.

You know what I found funny? In the Liam Jones thread in one of the Williamstown reserve game write ups BT mentioned he played both ends of the ground.

That said it's worth remember the proper order of events here. Yes Jones has become a better defender than forward but when he was with us he still seemed to have a bright future at a pack marking forward (ala Naughton funny enough). It all fell apart at Carlton after he asked to leave and good on him for transforming into a good defender when it did.

[macca]

One of the challenges I see is with players we recruit is playing in their natural positions.

McComb is an example comes to mind. We bring him as a midfield, but he ends up playing on the wing and at half forward.

I get a sense same is happening with Harmes. Khamis was playing fwd last year. Gardner is now ruck/utility in VFL.

They play in one position in VFL, but when it comes to AFL, they are played in different position.

Our forward line plan is predictable. Long bomb and 2-3 dogs forwards collide into a pack. We don't have any crumber around in the right places.


The lack of rookies coming through and cementing best 22 is hurting us. This is where we could unearth mids. Geelong had 4 rookies play in their team on the weekend. We have Brambles and Buku who are still finding their feet at this level.

The lack of burst speed in our midfield list has really exposed our list.

[Mofra]

I thought we fully supported Jade Rawlings. Fully behind him when he kicked seven goals on debut with us. But the support fell away as he missed a shot from 30m out directly in front in the last quarter that cost us the game. Damn you Ashley Sampi!
That game that handed us the no 1 pick, one Adam Cooney in what was a truly awful draft?
I've forgiven Sampi a thousand times over

[Happy Days]

That game that handed us the no 1 pick, one Adam Cooney in what was a truly awful draft?
I've forgiven Sampi a thousand times over

Sampi was the year before. Nafe kicked 7, it was absolutely awesome right up until it wasn’t.

The Rawlings game was actually Cooney’s first game too. I remember thinking 18 was as old as someone could possibly be and being mystified that he wasn’t better.

[mjp]

One of the challenges I see is with players we recruit is playing in their natural positions.

McComb is an example comes to mind. We bring him as a midfield, but he ends up playing on the wing and at half forward.


Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...

[The bulldog tragician]

Maybe it’s just me …. but I never even warmed to Jason Akermanis!

Rory Lobb and James Harmes aren’t delisted battlers we’re giving a second chance to. I don’t feel an emotional attachment to either of them, in fact I struggle to overcome my previous dislike of them and this hasn’t been helped by the way they’ve played AND the confusion in how they’ve been used.

Treloar’s story is quite different and he gives his all. I don’t actually feel he is more harshly judged than others in our midfield for his poorer games. Bramble though is the kind of guy I’d HOPE will do well though I have my doubts.

Footy has a fair bit of emotion and irrationality and some guys seem more likeable or “fit” our image of the club more than others. I mourned the delisting of Daniel Cross for a long long time….

[Go_Dogs]

Recycled players get a hard time. Usually they’re going to be in the 20-30 best players on the list and have inconsistent performances and weaknesses which they probably won’t overcome and a homegrown draft pick who we perceive to have a higher ceiling is much more appealing.

Is it fair on the players? No.

Are we slightly better on WOOF in this regard? Hopefully.

[Danjul]

Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...

I quite like Bramble. His problem is our game plan does not suit him. He gets the ball, uses speed to move up the ground and then finds there is no one in position to kick to. We need to adjust the plan to accommodate the skills of players we select.

[josie]

Agree with BTrag about irrationality.

There is a bit of confirmation bias; knowing player weakness - why he was delisted, then unconsciously seeking evidence to support it when they make mistakes, whilst not balancing that with the good passages of play they are part of. Even the fair minded can fall into this.

I think we are pretty fair on woof though. Bevo is very loyal (perhaps stubborn) in persisting with some lesser light players and I think that infuriates some of us, incl. me.

I loved Aker - his smooth play, his beautiful kicks for goal, his dyed hair, his handstands, even his outspoken style (except towards end and after he left when I think he became bitter etc). Enjoyed his book too (obviously only one side of story). Understand he didn?t fit in well with playing group though and can see why he wasn?t popular amongst a fair few supporters. I recall him being overlooked by some of our players when I thought he was in a good position to receive the ball. However that could have been my confirmation bias.

[AshMac]

Good question - not sure we?re harder or easier on players traded in than other supporters, there is an expectation that the club is filling a gap and that each trade makes us better as a team though.

For me, I don?t really understand our trades - it almost feels like we set our sights so low that a player will agree to play for us because we aren?t a destination club - and I think that sets supporters up for failed expectation.

I can?t name a trade in the last 3 years that has been a genuine need for us or has then been played in the role I thought we got them for. So either disappointing or inappropriately used.

As a couple of examples -

Baker - I don?t think he is AFL standard
Harmes - why bring him in if not to tag. He is the epitome of workhorse, basic meat and potatoes.
Lobb - we had a kid we wanted to sign for another 8 years, 2 tall top 2 forwards and another tall forward FS in the following 3 years - plus freo absolutely bent us over in the trade
Bramble - I?ve been pretty happy with. The thing I don?t understand is do we need another mid tier small defender? I don?t think we do.

On the flip side you look at the players that leave - Dunkley and Higgins the two I think of first - and the scales are just so lopsided.

In short - frustrated the club is shit at trading and that probably flows onto the expectation on players

[Stevo]

As supporters we more or less view players based on how successful the team they arrived from was but some go hard at certain players. As a premiership player Duryea was given a fair shake by most of our supporters but Bramble coming from a less successful side is right up against it. Bringing in players from other sides is difficult task and especially when your not a high profile side.
In the main our supporters are skeptical when players arrive from other clubs and some of this is because of past mistakes rather than judging players on what they actually offer.

[comrade]

Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...

The difference between a Bramble & a Bont (or Richards, Caleb) is they can have terrible moments that are made up by the sublime brilliance they?re capable of. If Bramble fluffs his lines, there isn?t much coming back the other way. Not his fault, but you can understand the lenience. Fringe players has less margin for error as the good generally doesn?t outweigh the bad.

You are spot on with the MC being responsible for continuing to pick players who let us down. That?s been happening for years.

[lemmon]

I think we're harsh on role players rather than recycled players.

Laith and McNeil cop it as much as anyone and are ostensibly 'ours'. They try hard, they're good trainers, they're no-fuss - but they also fumble, miss opportunities, don't get a stack of the ball and don't make 'moments' in the same way more talented players do. I don't think supporters have more affection for them because we drafted or recruited them, we see the flaws and that's what we focus on.

I think it's much the same as the criticism that Harmes, Bramble and Baker get - we hone in on the flaws and that's where we end up spending most of our focus.

I disagree that 'effort' should be enough to expect from a player. Effort doesn't make finals and effort doesn't win flags. I don't think footy fans have ever been drawn to effort or doggedness unless it was combined with an ability to play the game or be bloody good at a role within it. I'm thinking of Tony Liberatore, Liam Picken and Dale Morris - we love them because they 'tried', but minimising them as 'good, honest triers' is an unfair summation of their talents.

I do agree that some of the way supporters talk about players is ridiculous and that's where the change should be. I agree that it's not their 'fault', and the discourse needs to be far less emotional than it is. It's not right to jump online and ostensibly abuse a Vandermeer or a Bramble because they 'can't kick', but supporters do have a right to voice that they think those guys shouldn't be in the side, or on the list (ala McComb).

I think that can be extended to the media too, where the way players are spoken about can be incredibly unprofessional.

Adam Treloar is an interesting example to pull out. I think he isn't universally lauded because he's a 'run forward' midfielder in a midfield that has a 'run forward' problem. We hone in and focus on that flaw and it clouds a lot of the conversation in terms of what he does right. Matthew Boyd was a similar stature player and absolutely one of our own, but I don't think supporters ever fully embraced him because he didn't kick it well and was slow - again, we focus on those flaws rather than three BnFs and three All Australians.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's horrible, though this did make me laugh when I read it.

The lengths people will go to in order to let off steam amazes me.

Yeah, its reflection from stories like that that really changed my whole outlook on my relationship with football. There is no way I'm giving it that amount of agency. Its like betting your mood on the outcome of a bingo draw....you would'nt do it. You get one life, and to superglue your behaviour/emotions and justifications on something as capricious as a football match just doesn't seem a good investment from my perspective.

To think you'd go to the lengths' to find where a player's parents live and hurl abuse at them over a football game.. Wow..
Has anyone seen Buffalo 66. Please do. What an amazing movie that was. Vincent Gallo, Christina Ricci.... at a shallow level about a dude who decides that his life turned out so bad because of a Buffalo Bills kicker missing a field goal in a Super Bowl...
So when he happens to come across this now retired kicker, many years later when he grows up, he starts thinking about how unfair it is....
I'll leave it there.
It's actually underneath a charming, quirky movie and speaks to the issue we're covering here. Fantastic acting by both of the leads too.

[mjp]

I disagree that 'effort' should be enough to expect from a player. Effort doesn't make finals and effort doesn't win flags. I don't think footy fans have ever been drawn to effort or doggedness unless it was combined with an ability to play the game or be bloody good at a role within it.

I disagree on this but fair enough.

I would though encourage you to think back of role players of the past and the way they are thought of...

If you take the 97-side as an example, we had a few superstars playing (Grant, West, Johnno, Smith etc) but if you think of the group:

Mark West is remembered as an injury prone hard hitter.
Simon Cox was a great left foot kick.
Craig Ellis a versatile CHB.
Matthew Dent a HARD half back.
Todd Curley a 'neat' running defender who was harshly done by at the tribunal.
James Cook as an amazing talent who 'could' have been anything.
etc.

We don't look back at those blokes and say:
Mark West was a peanut who needed to keep his eyes on the footy.
Simon Cox was allergic to contact and couldn't be counted on to keep his feet.
Craig Ellis was easily pushed around.
Matthew Dent sprayed the footy by foot at the WORST possible times.
Todd Curley was...well....he was there I guess.
James Cook was lazy and out of shape.

We just didn't used to think in the terms we do now...they were OUR players.

My thoughts on the Gardner and McComb stuff are well known...it was disgusting.

[angelopetraglia]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

Yeah, JC's number 1 adversary might've been a better option for that job on that day...

[mighty_west]

Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...


That goes with everything, drafting, the pressures of the number 1 pick vs pick 38, the first rounders etc, it's not the players fault they're picked so early if they haven't performed to everyone's expectations, sure they may have looked like superstars in the under 18's but not all good juniors make it for various reasons.

Then we have the pressures on Tom Boyd, not his fault he went pick 1, sure cop some flack for wanting to go home but again, not his fault he's on such a massive contract, where was the heat on Pickering (his manager)? or Gordon? they made the deal, they're the ones doing all the wheelin' and dealin' etc not Tom himself, yet it was Tom copping it so much i no doubt it was part of the reason he lost the love of the game.

[GVGjr]

Fans can be irrational and the players especially from other sides often wear the brunt of any frustration after a loss.
Look at Treloar, despite being a hard worker and quality player he's often in the firing line with our supporters.
His crimes are that he's well paid and slow good mates with a Premiership player and club best and fairest winner who happened to leave us.

[bornadog]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

the emotional immaturity that is displayed when we lose is hard to bare, so I don’t log on as much

[jeemak]

Yeah, its reflection from stories like that that really changed my whole outlook on my relationship with football. There is no way I'm giving it that amount of agency. Its like betting your mood on the outcome of a bingo draw....you would'nt do it. You get one life, and to superglue your behaviour/emotions and justifications on something as capricious as a football match just doesn't seem a good investment from my perspective.

To think you'd go to the lengths' to find where a player's parents live and hurl abuse at them over a football game.. Wow..
Has anyone seen Buffalo 66. Please do. What an amazing movie that was. Vincent Gallo, Christina Ricci.... at a shallow level about a dude who decides that his life turned out so bad because of a Buffalo Bills kicker missing a field goal in a Super Bowl...
So when he happens to come across this now retired kicker, many years later when he grows up, he starts thinking about how unfair it is....
I'll leave it there.
It's actually underneath a charming, quirky movie and speaks to the issue we're covering here. Fantastic acting by both of the leads too.

I am on the same bus as you. It's just football, and the controllable parts of your life are difficult enough to manage as it is without worrying about how a team winning or losing will impact you.

At a societal level I think we've all forgotten how hard stuff is to do, and that experts and professionals work ridiculously hard to be those things in highly competitive environments. And it turns us into pricks when assessing the lesser talented of those experts and professionals, or those who for whatever reason aren't getting the desired results.

[Sedat]

I am on the same bus as you. It's just football, and the controllable parts of your life are difficult enough to manage as it is without worrying about how a team winning or losing will impact you.
100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.

[Grantysghost]

100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.
The only flag of merit during Covid would've been the Dogs one.

My dog gets to go outside.

[Sedat]

The only flag of merit during Covid would've been the Dogs one.

My dog gets to go outside.
Not going to lie, in 2020 when Dusty made Dangerfield clutch thin air and then face plant the ground on the way to another Norm Smith, it was about as enjoyable as non-Bulldogs footy gets. That is enough to stamp 2020 as authentic for mine.

[EasternWest]

100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.

Point of order: how can a stray dog be locked in its home?

[jeemak]

Point of order: how can a stray dog be locked in its home?

I let it go, but now it's out in the open I would also like your question answered.

[EasternWest]

I let it go, but now it's out in the open I would also like your question answered.

It's the key point of the conversation. Sedat can't get away with this.

[Happy Days]

Trick question because stray dogs feel at home everywhere.

[EasternWest]

Trick question because stray dogs feel at home everywhere.

I guess that's why Dosh Junkley is happy at his second cousin's chiropractor's friend's house.

[Grantysghost]

Well stray means go it alone, not be part of the pack, so i cant see why they cant be locked inside.

Unless Sedat mistyped Straya in an effort to emphasise his oz governmental affection?

[jeemak]

I guess that's why Dosh Junkley is happy at his second cousin's chiropractor's friend's house.

But not quite as happy as when he's at his second cousin's chiropractor's friend's family's house.