So - If everyone is on the same page, Maybe it's in the wrong book?

[mjp]

Just watched the presser where Bevo spoke about everyone being on the same page.

I guess I don't really disagree - our ball movement seemed to fall down in the same part of the ground yesterday (full disclosure - missed the first 2 1/2 quarters 'cos at the state league stuff) no matter who had the ball in hand...

So it is as simple as 'the plan is just never gonna work'?

The players seem to be putting in a great deal of effort and whilst I would have loved to see a bit more intent post contest yesterday it's hard to be critical of effort...but man we can turn it over by foot.

Maybe - MAYBE - if everyone is united (and it looked like they were) - it's as simple as a couple of game-style changes???

Trying to be optimistic here...last q was certainly a rough watch.

[EasternWest]

The issue for me is that we almost never get an easy lead up hit up to a forward yet it constantly seems to happen to us. And is been that way for years. I'd be doing something to address that.

[SonofScray]

It's not just the wrong page. It's the wrong book. Probably the wrong prescription glasses. Might even be the wrong medium.



It's a sad final few weeks (hopefully days) for him at the club. Wish he was just honest with himself and walked away. Not up to it.

[angelopetraglia]

The issue for me is that we almost never get an easy lead up hit up to a forward yet it constantly seems to happen to us. And is been that way for years. I'd be doing something to address that.

That is mainly due to our inability to move the ball our of our D50 with any poise. We never get over the back and into space like teams seem to do against us. I think that is the big difference. Teams can transition against, we don't appear to be able to transition against them. Those fast transitions not always, but many times end up with an easy forward entry hit up.

[The bulldog tragician]

What do we mean by effort? Genuine question. Somewhere else it’s mentioned the Hawks ran 11 km more than us. At the ground I did question the effort especially in qtr 2. I saw players unwilling to run to make position, lack of options in the kick out, a lot of pointing to others to mind a man which was usually a very loose interpretation of “mind”. Are tackles easily shrugged off another metric for effort?
Our defensive fwd VDM went through a half with one possession!

In reality Hawthorn should have won by 5 goals. If our effort was ok then we are in big big trouble.

[Grantysghost]

I don't know what is in the book these days.

2015 / 16 it was clear.

Revolutionary handball game with the +1 overlap out of the stoppage, manic pressure (men of mayhem) at the contest, rebound 50 drive via JJ / Biggsy etc, third man up etc there was a brand, something you could say is Bulldogs/Bevo footy.

Yesterday I sat there after having been at the Freo game (who have a clear identity) and thought : what's the plan here?

Get it in the forward 50 and pray?? We still use the +1 but the pressure just isn't there to stifle the opposition entries or create an overlap. Maybe sometimes the message just becomes boring and it's time for a new voice.

Bevo is our greatest ever coach, but all good things come to an end and I think the relationship has run it's course.

I mean I was standing there in the last quarter watching the game next to a fit Caleb Daniel. On what planet isn't he out there when you've got bloody Harmes and Gallagher in the side ??!

[Sedat]

Trying to be optimistic here...last q was certainly a rough watch.
I don't recommend you watch the 2nd qtr or the last 20 minutes of the 1st qtr

[Sedat]

I mean I was standing there in the last quarter watching the game next to a fit Caleb Daniel. On what planet isn't he out there when you've got bloody Harmes and Gallagher in the side ??!
Harmes was very good yesterday. Easily in the best 4-5 for us IMO.

Gags needs a break and to find some footy in the 2nds. He has struggled to impact for a number of weeks now.

Daniel circa 2024 is not fixing anything - harsh but true.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What do we mean by effort? Genuine question. Somewhere else it?s mentioned the Hawks ran 11 km more than us. At the ground I did question the effort especially in qtr 2. I saw players unwilling to run to make position, lack of options in the kick out, a lot of pointing to others to mind a man which was usually a very loose interpretation of ?mind?. Are tackles easily shrugged off another metric for effort?
Our defensive fwd VDM went through a half with one possession!

In reality Hawthorn should have won by 5 goals. If our effort was ok then we are in big big trouble.

Yeah the effort is there when a loose ball is within the vicinity. But anything requiring running without the ball to either man up or chase, it's severely lacking.

I dunno what it is. Are they all tired from having to constantly man space and chase players all day? We seriously look like we're playing a different game out there sometimes. The gameplan is well and truly outdated or our players only know how to play state league footy.

[mjp]

I don't recommend you watch the 2nd qtr or the last 20 minutes of the 1st qtr

LOLS. I don't hate myself quite that much (today).

[Mofra]

It wasn't even the missed targets, it was the type of movement we were trying to pull off in the first half.
It seemed we were deliberately going slow which was ridiculous as it gave time for the Hawks defenders to set up.
They don't have monster talls but they do have a heap of mid-sizers who are good at peeling off and helping each other.

It's like we abandoned what we were trying to do up to this point to play the exact way the Hawks would have wanted us too. Lunacy

[G-Mo77]

The issue for me is that we almost never get an easy lead up hit up to a forward yet it constantly seems to happen to us. And is been that way for years. I'd be doing something to address that.

They didn't move yesterday. For most of the time they stood in zones and waited for the player to kick to an area. No one would lead to that area, they'd stand still and point to it. That's not just the forwards it's across the whole ground. More often than not we'll kick sideways or hold it up.

If Naughton or JUH don't take a hanger over one or the either it's pretty rare to get a good forward leading pattern and get an easy mark inside 50. It's ugly on TV but even uglier at the ground seeing it.

[bornadog]

What do we mean by effort? Genuine question. Somewhere else it’s mentioned the Hawks ran 11 km more than us. At the ground I did question the effort especially in qtr 2. I saw players unwilling to run to make position, lack of options in the kick out, a lot of pointing to others to mind a man which was usually a very loose interpretation of “mind”. Are tackles easily shrugged off another metric for effort?
Our defensive fwd VDM went through a half with one possession!

In reality Hawthorn should have won by 5 goals. If our effort was ok then we are in big big trouble.

I thought the effort and intensity was shown in the last quarter only. For the other three quarters, we looked like we thought we were playing a bottom team and we will win. But, we forgot the hard work.

[Grantysghost]

Harmes was very good yesterday. Easily in the best 4-5 for us IMO.

Gags needs a break and to find some footy in the 2nds. He has struggled to impact for a number of weeks now.

Daniel circa 2024 is not fixing anything - harsh but true.
Daniel circa 24 played in his best role maybe does.

Harmes is useless i really dont rate. Bit of an indictment on the rest if hes in our best.

[EasternWest]

That is mainly due to our inability to move the ball our of our D50 with any poise. We never get over the back and into space like teams seem to do against us. I think that is the big difference. Teams can transition against, we don't appear to be able to transition against them. Those fast transitions not always, but many times end up with an easy forward entry hit up.

I guess that's my point. Why is it like that? Why can't we do it?

[Grantysghost]

I guess that's my point. Why is it like that? Why can't we do it?

Turnovers. Too many from us, not causing enough from them.

You only get clean footy like that from centre stoppage or opposition turnovers.

We simply don't put enough pressure on/cause the oppo to fek it up enough either, and clean centre breaks ...well it's a rarity.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Turnovers. Too many from us, not causing enough from them.

You only get clean footy like that from centre stoppage or opposition turnovers.

We simply don't put enough pressure on/cause the oppo to fek it up enough either, and clean centre breaks ...well it's a rarity.

The "unforced" turnovers yesterday were horrendous but we struggle to hit up any leads even when not turning it over like that.

To me it feels like a combination of no real gameplan and lack of movement from players up the ground.

Teams drop numbers back against us and as soon as we're at our defensive 50 we're pretty much always kicking to a contest where we're often outnumbered. We either get out marked or thr ball hits the deck and the oppo cleans it up and bangs it back inside 50 where we're all out of position.

Our forwards don't press hard enough and work together to isolate themselves. Then our mids and wings just seem to be missing. I don't really know why.

I also noticed yesterday how many hack kicks from hawthorn defenders out of our 50 landed right in their laps to start a movement forward. I don't think it's a coincidence. We just never have players in the right part of the ground. Even defending without the ball. The oppo loop it over our heads and we're just running around trying to keep up with an in-flight ball. No wonder we get tired.

[lemmon]

The "unforced" turnovers yesterday were horrendous but we struggle to hit up any leads even when not turning it over like that.

To me it feels like a combination of no real gameplan and lack of movement from players up the ground.

Teams drop numbers back against us and as soon as we're at our defensive 50 we're pretty much always kicking to a contest where we're often outnumbered. We either get out marked or thr ball hits the deck and the oppo cleans it up and bangs it back inside 50 where we're all out of position.

Our forwards don't press hard enough and work together to isolate themselves. Then our mids and wings just seem to be missing. I don't really know why.

I also noticed yesterday how many hack kicks from hawthorn defenders out of our 50 landed right in their laps to start a movement forward. I don't think it's a coincidence. We just never have players in the right part of the ground. Even defending without the ball. The oppo loop it over our heads and we're just running around trying to keep up with an in-flight ball. No wonder we get tired.

It's really hard to tell not being at the ground, but I'd love to know how much of the finger should be pointed at the running defenders who are making decisions and disposing of the footy, versus the half forwards who should be the ones showing for the ball. Jamarra was invisible yesterday - was he not working up to the wings and presenting as an option, or contesting for the dump kick? I know Naughton is playing the traditional centre half forward role this year, but if Marra is ice cold he needs to get on his bike and get the ball in hand.

The same can be said for S Darcy - he's either playing deep or chopping out in the ruck - he should be a guy we're looking to for those dump kicks on a slow play out of our defensive 50.

Hard to tell not being at the ground, it feels like with those two camped forward, we can't spread the small defence and actually take advantage of it. If you're playing undersized key back, congestion is your friend.

I think it's easy to look at the turnover and blame the player who's kicked the footy, but I'd love to know what Bramble and JJ were looking at ahead of them yesterday.

[Grantysghost]

We push an extra up so if the other team plays 6 defenders then we are outnumbered.
Is why the hack kicks are so frustrating. We should be able to work it out of the stoppage with an extra and spread to create the overlap.

It doesnt work any more though.

I noticed we were well beaten in ground ball gets, Hawks were much cleaner below their feet when it mattered.

[bornadog]

I think it's easy to look at the turnover and blame the player who's kicked the footy, but I'd love to know what Bramble and JJ were looking at ahead of them yesterday.

JJ's kicks direct to a Hawks player standing 20 metres away were unforgivable as was his attempted pass to English that hit the ground and Hawks goaled. Jones although played well, also did some stupid things with the ball in hand. These were turnovers no where the HF or wing lines. these were within 50 to 60 metres of goal.

[Sedat]

It's really hard to tell not being at the ground, but I'd love to know how much of the finger should be pointed at the running defenders who are making decisions and disposing of the footy, versus the half forwards who should be the ones showing for the ball.
There was a bit of both. Some of our D50 turnovers were utterly horrendous (would have comfortably fit into Dimma's "shit goal" stat from last week) and others were the end result of a lack of workrate further up the ground to provide an outlet for the D50 rebounders.

[Mofra]

Daniel circa 24 played in his best role maybe does.
What is his best role? If it's in defence a la his AA year - he was about our 5th best defender at VFL level.
Freijah is knocking the door down though.

[bornadog]

What is his best role? If it's in defence a la his AA year - he was about our 5th best defender at VFL level.
Freijah is knocking the door down though.

When does he debut and who does he knock out?

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

We look exhausted and it's only round 8

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's really hard to tell not being at the ground, but I'd love to know how much of the finger should be pointed at the running defenders who are making decisions and disposing of the footy, versus the half forwards who should be the ones showing for the ball. Jamarra was invisible yesterday - was he not working up to the wings and presenting as an option, or contesting for the dump kick? I know Naughton is playing the traditional centre half forward role this year, but if Marra is ice cold he needs to get on his bike and get the ball in hand.

The same can be said for S Darcy - he's either playing deep or chopping out in the ruck - he should be a guy we're looking to for those dump kicks on a slow play out of our defensive 50.

Hard to tell not being at the ground, it feels like with those two camped forward, we can't spread the small defence and actually take advantage of it. If you're playing undersized key back, congestion is your friend.

I think it's easy to look at the turnover and blame the player who's kicked the footy, but I'd love to know what Bramble and JJ were looking at ahead of them yesterday.

I think yesterday it was a bit of both as there were some shocking turnovers. But I don't think that's the real issue. I think the real issue is further up the ground. Although I must concede that our defenders are both horrible kicks and horrible decision makers so it doesn't help. But maybe it does have to do with what's ahead of them.

Our forwards and mids aren't working hard enough to present themselves to the ball carrier. Maybe it's because we have a tall forward line that we think we'll just win the marking contests? But Marra/Naughton/English always are going for the same marking contest on the wing. Ball hits the deck and the oppo cleans it up with the extra numbers. I must admit I don't know what our mids/wings/small forwards are doing but they're often not in the vicinity. It looks to me that a lot of the smalls are closer to defence looking for the short option but they're really not in an advantageous position. Even when we go the short option, the next kick is always to a pack. We never methodically work the ball up the ground without having a hack kick to a contest.

Whether all this is workrate or gameplan is hard to tell. I'd be curious to hear from Harmes who has come from an excellent system.