If there was relegation?

[bulldogtragic]

Let?s say 17th & 18th get relegated hypothetically.
The best two state league teams in the country get elevated into those spots.


What current club/s would be good enough to never hit say the bottom two spots to be relegated?
Which club/s would get relegated and yo-yo in and out?
Which club/s would drop out of the AFEL and never be seen again?
Which state league club/s could force their way into the AFEL and stay in the best 18 clubs in the country?
Would state leagues be prepared to accept strong teams going out, to get former AFEL teams coming in?

(By the by, I?d think tanking and completely bottoming out wouldn?t be an issue any more. List management would get a whole lot more serious too)

[mjp]

Let?s say 17th & 18th get relegated hypothetically.
The best two state league teams in the country get elevated into those spots.


What current club/s would be good enough to never hit say the bottom two spots to be relegated?
Which club/s would get relegated and yo-yo in and out?
Which club/s would drop out of the AFEL and never be seen again?
Which state league club/s could force their way into the AFEL and stay in the best 18 clubs in the country?
Would state leagues be prepared to accept strong teams going out, to get former AFEL teams coming in?

(By the by, I?d think tanking and completely bottoming out wouldn?t be an issue any more. List management would get a whole lot more serious too)

Ummm - speaking as someone with a 'high' level of involvement with a state league club currently in 1st place, we are in no position to participate in AFL footy.

The only similarity between a state league club and an AFL club is that both play games of footy every weekend...state league footy is not professional sport. It is SEMI-professional...with a big emphasis on the SEMI.

[mighty_west]

You could almost mount a case for this back in the 80's when it was the VFL and you would have a certain few SANFL and WAFL clubs come over and play in our Lightening Cup, Ansett Cup Night series etc, clubs like Norwood, Swan Districts, Sturt, Subiaco would do ok against some of the VFL sides, we could get to see the likes of Michael Aish, Gary MacIntosh etc etc.

[bulldogtragic]

Ummm - speaking as someone with a 'high' level of involvement with a state league club currently in 1st place, we are in no position to participate in AFL footy.

The only similarity between a state league club and an AFL club is that both play games of footy every weekend...state league footy is not professional sport. It is SEMI-professional...with a big emphasis on the SEMI.

So no one could make the jump if a couple of teams in each state got stronger?

Say, take Port Melbourne, if missed decent draft kids and ex-players wanting back in focussed into them and not spread across the VFL (same for say an aspiring senior coach), and then had some sort of transition assistance for free agents and took the top draft spots, they couldn’t make the jump?

Would they be worse than say North the last few years?

[mjp]

So no one could make the jump if a couple of teams in each state got stronger?

Say, take Port Melbourne, if missed decent draft kids and ex-players wanting back in focussed into them and not spread across the VFL (same for say an aspiring senior coach), and then had some sort of transition assistance for free agents and took the top draft spots, they couldn’t make the jump?

Would they be worse than say North the last few years?

Well, our best young players come out of a group that DID NOT GET DRAFTED.

So...

I mean, we would be 'competent' but North over the past couple of years would be the BEST case scenario...we do have a core group of experienced senior players many of who wouldn't look out of place on an AFL LIST. But being on a list and being a 30 possessions per game mid/rebounding half back who needs to be accounted for/goal kicking force up forward etc is a BIG jump.

Now, if the kids were kept at their clubs (as in the 'old VFL' vs 'old WAFL/SANFL' etc example above) well, now you're talking about something different. But given the AFL dismantled the club system in Victoria and put the talent league structure in place, you would have to UNDO all of that first and go back to club-based metro zones...or the rugby league system where every young player is a free agent.

[Hotdog60]

With the likelihood of Twenty teams would the AFL go down the path of a split comp of group 1 and group 2.
10 teams each that play each other twice then some sort of playoff between the two groups to see who makes finals.
I don't like the idea but would it be fairer and splitting the groups would be interesting in who plays who.

[bulldogtragic]

Well, our best young players come out of a group that DID NOT GET DRAFTED.

So...

I mean, we would be 'competent' but North over the past couple of years would be the BEST case scenario...we do have a core group of experienced senior players many of who wouldn't look out of place on an AFL LIST. But being on a list and being a 30 possessions per game mid/rebounding half back who needs to be accounted for/goal kicking force up forward etc is a BIG jump.

Now, if the kids were kept at their clubs (as in the 'old VFL' vs 'old WAFL/SANFL' etc example above) well, now you're talking about something different. But given the AFL dismantled the club system in Victoria and put the talent league structure in place, you would have to UNDO all of that first and go back to club-based metro zones...or the rugby league system where every young player is a free agent.

What is say, North and another team, say WCE from last year. Their players become free agents (say contracts allow for moving to AFEL clubs if their club is relegated). If you could raid a handful or two AFEL listed players to top up your list (AFEL cash handout for it). Would that make your club or a Port Melbourne a chance to succeed?

Or is it just a recipe to yo-yo from competition to competition?

On the flip side, I wouldn’t see North with lost players dominating the VFL as I don’t see Arden St as a massive home ground advantage. I wonder if a club was given an opportunity (as a metaphorical skinny kid) could blossom into a real AFEL club. With an actual history, local players and an actual supporter base could work beyond the GCS/GWS model of following tv money. Even if it was the 20th licence.

I don’t know much about the EPL relegation model, but it seems hard to get promotion and turn into a genuine contender. But if the threat existed, I wonder if North would’ve done things differently the passed few years.

[Flamethrower]

I doubt relegation and promotion would work these days as the gap between the worst AFL team and the best WAFL, SANFL and VFL is huge.

The time for this was when the VFL was formed in 1897.

If we had a soccer like set up from the early days, teams like St Kilda, North Melbourne and Hawthorn would have been most at risk of relegation to the VFA, while powerhouse VFA clubs like Williamstown and Port Melbourne would have been mostly likely promoted to the VFL. Other VFA clubs like Coburg, Preston, Prahran, Dandenong, Box Hill and Sandringham could have merged with VFL teams, or had short stints in the VFL.

Port Adelaide from the SANFL and East Fremantle from the WAFL would have been most likely to have established themselves as VFL / AFL teams. That means that the Adelaide Crows, Port Adelaide Power, West Coast Eagles and Fremantle Dockers would never have existed. Clubs like Norwood, Glenelg and Sturt from the SANFL, and Claremont and Subiaco from the WAFL would have yoyo'd between competitions.

[soupman]

To do relegation you'd have to fundamentally tear down the way the entire structure is set up.

I'd be interested in what it does for player development, I'd suspect it would not be good.

Instead of clubs 10-18 pumping games into kids to accelerate their next phase, they would be extra cautious of not losing and this would incentivise them to keep and play more limited guys like Rhys Mathieson or Liam Shiels as they can rely on them to be role players instead of getting gametime into the next gen.

As a result it would be harder than ever for young guys to get those crucial first 40 games and the second tier is such a substantial drop off that their development would almost definitely be stunted.

[Mofra]

The amount of resources at a VFL vs AFL club is not even worth comparing.

There are divvie 1 suburban teams that aren't too far off what the standalone VFL clubs have. I've had a couple of ad hoc gigs at VFL clubs over the years, and I highly doubt AFL teams are having beer & pizza nights the night of a gameday either.

[mjp]

...I highly doubt AFL teams are having beer & pizza nights the night of a gameday either.

Beer and Pizza AFTER a game?

Well, if you're gonna have it, probs the best time.

Bit of high fat food post activity is good for recovery...the beer is never good but they are 100% having a beer after the game.

[EasternWest]

beer is never good

You shut your whore mouth.

[mighty_west]

The logistics would be a nightmare, i get the idea but where do you start?

Let's say as of right now, Glenelg, East Perth and Footscray top the State league ladders, can't have Footscray being promoted as there is already a club rep in the AFL so for a start it would have to be a stand alone State League side highest ranked which would be Werribee right now in the VFL, so, 2 spots 3 sides, do they play a round robin and the two highest ranked with wins and % get promoted? that would actually be an awesome watch however........

Glenelg and East Perth congrats on entering the AFL and tough luck to Richmond and North but you're being dropped to the VFL, so Larkey, Bolton, Rioli, Sheezel etc etc etc are not going to want to play VFL when there are no guarantees that Richmond or North climb their way back for years, they'll have to work as hard as Port Melbourne or Frankston, Southport or Sandy to get a gig, do they simply lose their rights to the AFL drafts and trade periods and the two new clubs lick their lips?

What happens if the Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn or Melbourne drop out, do they simply become Footscray, Box Hill and Casey?

[Happy Days]

Beer after a footy game is maybe the best feeling thing in the entire world, if not slightly behind beer after knocking off a 10+ hour hospo shift or beer after moving house. I would want mid 7 figures a year to play footy if I was giving that up.

[bulldogtragic]

The logistics would be a nightmare, i get the idea but where do you start?

Let's say as of right now, Glenelg, East Perth and Footscray top the State league ladders, can't have Footscray being promoted as there is already a club rep in the AFL so for a start it would have to be a stand alone State League side highest ranked which would be Werribee right now in the VFL, so, 2 spots 3 sides, do they play a round robin and the two highest ranked with wins and % get promoted? that would actually be an awesome watch however........

Glenelg and East Perth congrats on entering the AFL and tough luck to Richmond and North but you're being dropped to the VFL, so Larkey, Bolton, Rioli, Sheezel etc etc etc are not going to want to play VFL when there are no guarantees that Richmond or North climb their way back for years, they'll have to work as hard as Port Melbourne or Frankston, Southport or Sandy to get a gig, do they simply lose their rights to the AFL drafts and trade periods and the two new clubs lick their lips?

What happens if the Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn or Melbourne drop out, do they simply become Footscray, Box Hill and Casey?

Everything would need to be restructured. The OP was more a hypothetical about clubs if relegation existed. But to one of your points, watching the two strongest stand alone state teams fighting for promotion should be one hell of a game. Until the umpires make a shit call and cost a club a multimillion dollar pay day by costing them promotion.

[mjp]

Everything would need to be restructured. The OP was more a hypothetical about clubs if relegation existed. But to one of your points, watching the two strongest stand alone state teams fighting for promotion should be one hell of a game. Until the umpires make a shit call and cost a club a multimillion dollar pay day by costing them promotion.

Well, I know we'd be up for the game...not sure anyone would care to watch which is really why (together with the advent of Thursday night footy) why the Foxtel Cup died...

[mighty_west]

Everything would need to be restructured. The OP was more a hypothetical about clubs if relegation existed. But to one of your points, watching the two strongest stand alone state teams fighting for promotion should be one hell of a game. Until the umpires make a shit call and cost a club a multimillion dollar pay day by costing them promotion.

Imagine if Collingwood finished bottom 2 and their 100K members had to go watch the VFL :D

But as a thing on it's own, i think that would be a great idea for a "State League Championship Of Australia" type of award/trophy type of set up for the 3 main State league sides to play out for, whether it being the 3 Premiership sides or the three that topped the ladder at the end of the home and away, but the 3 games would be as of right now....Footscray v East Perth game 1, Glenelg v Footscray game 2 and East Perth v Glenelg game 3, bring that on!

[mjp]

Imagine if Collingwood finished bottom 2 and their 100K members had to go watch the VFL :D

But as a thing on it's own, i think that would be a great idea for a "State League Championship Of Australia" type of award/trophy type of set up for the 3 main State league sides to play out for, whether it being the 3 Premiership sides or the three that topped the ladder at the end of the home and away, but the 3 games would be as of right now....Footscray v East Perth game 1, Glenelg v Footscray game 2 and East Perth v Glenelg game 3, bring that on!

With no disrespect to Footscray, given they have access to full-time AFL players they should be excluded from this...

[bulldogtragic]

Imagine if Collingwood finished bottom 2 and their 100K members had to go watch the VFL :D

But as a thing on it's own, i think that would be a great idea for a "State League Championship Of Australia" type of award/trophy type of set up for the 3 main State league sides to play out for, whether it being the 3 Premiership sides or the three that topped the ladder at the end of the home and away, but the 3 games would be as of right now....Footscray v East Perth game 1, Glenelg v Footscray game 2 and East Perth v Glenelg game 3, bring that on!

That was the Foxtel Cup wasn’t it?

[mighty_west]

With no disrespect to Footscray, given they have access to full-time AFL players they should be excluded from this...

Well i suggested the highest ranked stand alone club (as of right now Werribee) being promoted as you can't have two Bulldogs or Hawks, Demons etc in the AFL, so you're probably right there, might be a slight advantage.

But when we became the AFL, everything changed for the good and not so good, can't really have a true state of origin anymore, it's just "too hard" and it's a shame the old night series kind of dwindled away as once upon a time it was an exciting pre-season comp, i mean heck, even Weg drew us up a poster for '63!

1450

[mighty_west]

That was the Foxtel Cup wasn’t it?

Yeah i kind of only vaguely remember it, not sure why it only ran for a few seasons? Although it did include quite a few teams rather than just the three highest ranked sides from Vic, WA and SA.

[SquirrelGrip]

Imagine if Collingwood finished bottom 2 and their 100K members had to go watch the VFL :D

But as a thing on it's own, i think that would be a great idea for a "State League Championship Of Australia" type of award/trophy type of set up for the 3 main State league sides to play out for, whether it being the 3 Premiership sides or the three that topped the ladder at the end of the home and away, but the 3 games would be as of right now....Footscray v East Perth game 1, Glenelg v Footscray game 2 and East Perth v Glenelg game 3, bring that on!

Yes, the idea of an FA Cup Style knockout comp open to every senior footy club in Australia (except the AFL-aligned clubs) would be a winner. Top of each state then play off against the other states. A bit like March Madness College basketball.

That'd be better than promotion and relegation.

[mjp]

Yeah i kind of only vaguely remember it, not sure why it only ran for a few seasons? Although it did include quite a few teams rather than just the three highest ranked sides from Vic, WA and SA.

Only top 3 or 4 from WA were in, I remember that much.

[westdog54]

The only way to make promotion/relegation work is with a fully professional two tier competition.

Try working a draft and trading into a two tiered competition, to can it difficult either be an understatement.

[Happy Days]

Kinda feel like this was bait for us to say Coach Bad

[ledge]

I believe there is a push to bring back the reserves comp which is how the way the vfl has gone anyway.
I think it should go fully back to clubs having its own under 19s but under 19s is only for players in your metro area and is state based.

[mjp]

I believe there is a push to bring back the reserves comp which is how the way the vfl has gone anyway.
I think it should go fully back to clubs having its own under 19s but under 19s is only for players in your metro area and is state based.

And those players in your u19's are zoned to you or able to be drafted by anyone??

Seems weird.

[ledge]

And those players in your u19's are zoned to you or able to be drafted by anyone??

Seems weird.

Draft by anyone , the reason I say state based and only in the metro areas you live in is because they are still young and going to school, also not paid to play under 19s its not fully professional so they need to still live with family.
If you are drafted well a decent wage and proffesional assistants covers the rest.
If you live in the country you play local, unless you move to metro . Recruiters are out there you get seen.
Old school I know but it’s now turned into a private school sport.
You still have under 19s state carnival where the best compete against each other.

[bulldogtragic]

Draft by anyone , the reason I say state based and only in the metro areas you live in is because they are still young and going to school, also not paid to play under 19s its not fully professional so they need to still live with family.
If you are drafted well a decent wage and proffesional assistants covers the rest.
If you live in the country you play local, unless you move to metro . Recruiters are out there you get seen.
Old school I know but it’s now turned into a private school sport.
You still have under 19s state carnival where the best compete against each other.

So, we would fund, staff and run/direct resources into a football team/squad and derive no actual benefit?

[mjp]

So, we would fund, staff and run/direct resources into a football team/squad and derive no actual benefit?

...that's kind of my take as well...sounds like the academies argument on speed...