Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

[westdog54]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/06/17/mike-sheahan-ready-to-put-bontempelli-on-e-js-level-at-the-western-bulldogs/

Veteran Australian football journalist Mike Sheahan is ready to put Marcus Bontempelli in the same category as E.J Whitten, ranking them as equals when discussing the greatest Bulldog of all-time.

Whitten played 321 games for the Dogs between 1951 and 1970, winning five best and fairests, leading the club?s goal kicking four times and captaining the club for over a decade.

Sheahan, who has followed the game since the 1950s, believes their resumes are becoming eerily similar.

?Is it heresy to say somebody has matched E.J for impact at the Whitten Oval?? Sheahan told SEN Breakfast.

?Are we at the point where we have to say Bontempelli now sits with E.J for having had the greatest impact at the Western Bulldogs.

?E.J is an exalted figure and rightly so, but sometimes the evidence is irrefutable and the symmetry between these two is remarkable.

?Five best and fairests each, best and fairests in premiership years and in Grand Final years.

?A family friend of mine played seven seasons with the Bulldogs and with E.J and I used to carry his bags to the footy. I was young, I was in my teens, and I think Bontempelli in the modern version, he has the same impact at the Western Bulldogs that Wayne Carey had at North Melbourne.

?They can?t win an important game of footy, the Doggies, unless Bontempelli has a big game.?

Bontempelli has served as Dogs skipper since 2020 and made the All-Australian side in 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2023.

He would be well on track to win his sixth blazer and his sixth Charles Sutton Medal in 2024.

[westdog54]

Friends who knows how much I love the doggies ask me this a fair bit. "Is Bont your greatest player of all time?"

My answer is always the same. "I never saw EJ play. I can't answer that. All I can tell you is he's easily the best I've ever seen.

Now someone who DID see EJ play, and is one of the most respected names on the football media, thinks Bont may have caught him.

I would love to get everyone's thoughts on this.

[jeemak]

Chris Grant had the yips but kicked 550 goals in half a career, coming second in the Brownlow as a CHB and polling the most votes as a CHF. Criminally underrated, unfortunately playing for a team that didn't get as much coverage as we might have liked.

Bont in his career to date is level with Grant as the best I've seen. He'll have him covered by the time it wraps up.

EJ was the defining player of his era, I struggle to wrap my head around how Bont can be considered better than him in lieu of him not being considered in the top five of his.

Does Bont have more competition than EJ did?

[Grantysghost]

I think Doug Hawkins pre knee in 86 was one of those once in a generation types. He gets missed in some of these conversations and I wonder if it is a bit about the court jester role he played on The Footy Show.

When he did his knee that day at the MCG everyone was traumatised. There was no guarantee of a return in those days and I think we all thought there goes our chance at a flag after 85.

Bont and Grant, I now have Bont on a par with Grant, with Hawk just behind. Bont will pass him barring something horrid.

I mean maybe we forget Chris could well be a 2 x brownlow medalist and premiership player, only cruelled by the barest of margins on all 3, and all respect to midfielders he was a CHF/CHB.

Bont - present
Grant - 90s
Hawk - 80s

As others have said I never saw EJ so can't comment.

[bulldogtragic]

Ditto. =Grant

[Hotdog60]

Is it a bit hard to judge because football has changed so much over the decades.
Could EJ play the this day and age? EJ was a little bit before my time so hard to say.
Could the Bont play back in the 50's no doubt if he was getting on top in a game I'm sure someone would have given him a belt to put him back in his place.
I think you can only judge players over their careers against their peers with may be a few years either side for a bit of over lap.
Were does Dougie sit as a footballer or Templeton. It would have been a lot harder back when EJ played purely on the physical side both aerobically and the roughness but on the other hand todays game is faster and you have to be fitter but cleaner in your less likely to get a belt behind the ear.
Bonts up there no doubt but only when he retires can you take full account of his career.

[bulldogtragic]

Is it a bit hard to judge because football has changed so much over the decades.
Could EJ play the this day and age? EJ was a little bit before my time so hard to say.
Could the Bont play back in the 50's no doubt if he was getting on top in a game I'm sure someone would have given him a belt to put him back in his place.
I think you can only judge players over their careers against their peers with may be a few years either side for a bit of over lap.
Were does Dougie sit as a footballer or Templeton. It would have been a lot harder back when EJ played purely on the physical side both aerobically and the roughness but on the other hand todays game is faster and you have to be fitter but cleaner in your less likely to get a belt behind the ear.
Bonts up there no doubt but only when he retires can you take full account of his career.

EJ also played 300+, captained 200+ and coached too. Plus his SOO career. I agree, it’s a discussion for the end of Bonts career. But if he could add in a premiership as captain, maybe a Brownlow, a few more AA and B&Fs, then his accolades will mount up. If he can keep the club growing and build his aura, then let’s see.

[hujsh]

Chris Grant had the yips but kicked 550 goals in half a career, coming second in the Brownlow as a CHB and polling the most votes as a CHF. Criminally underrated, unfortunately playing for a team that didn't get as much coverage as we might have liked.

Bont in his career to date is level with Grant as the best I've seen. He'll have him covered by the time it wraps up.

EJ was the defining player of his era, I struggle to wrap my head around how Bont can be considered better than him in lieu of him not being considered in the top five of his.

Does Bont have more competition than EJ did?

Bont isn't considered in the top 5 of his era? Who is ahead aside from, I assume, Dusty?

[jeemak]

Bont isn't considered in the top 5 of his era? Who is ahead aside from, I assume, Dusty?

How long is an Era?

I have GAJ, Dangerfield, Martin, Franklin and Pavlich as how other people would probably see it. You could argue for Fyfe to be in there as well. And Happy Days will die on a hill for Ollie Wines to be included.

But those same people will tell you Jonathan Brown is better than Chris Grant so what the **** would they know.

In Bont's direct timeline I guess I put Martin and Dangerfield ahead of him. But that's mainly because I'm told I have to by Ch7.

[jazzadogs]

Bont isn't considered in the top 5 of his era? Who is ahead aside from, I assume, Dusty?

I was surprised by that comment too...it probably depends a bit on the definition of 'his era'.

Buddy.
Dusty.
Dangerfield.
?Ablett (most of his career pre Bont)
?Fyfe (brownlows but no durability/longevity)

Even though they've won Brownlows I have Cripps, Neale a rung below.

By the end of his career I think Bont will be seen universally as a defining player of his generation.

[Happy Days]

For those of you that haven?t been lucky enough to see the clip, Sheahan says that he has an ongoing text chat with Kane Cornes. He said that they?re on opposite ends of the spectrum about the Dogs - that Kane is too harsh on Beveridge and, and that Sheahan thinks we?re a one man team.

You ever seen two guys take opposing arguments and both be wrong?

[jazzadogs]

How long is an Era?

I have GAJ, Dangerfield, Martin, Franklin and Pavlich as how other people would probably see it. You could argue for Fyfe to be in there as well. And Happy Days will die on a hill for Ollie Wines to be included.

But those same people will tell you Jonathan Brown is better than Chris Grant so what the **** would they know.

In Bont's direct timeline I guess I put Martin and Dangerfield ahead of him. But that's mainly because I'm told I have to by Ch7.

Pav was 2000-2016 so very little crossover with Bont's career.

[Happy Days]

How long is an Era?

I have GAJ, Dangerfield, Martin, Franklin and Pavlich as how other people would probably see it. You could argue for Fyfe to be in there as well. And Happy Days will die on a hill for Ollie Wines to be included.

But those same people will tell you Jonathan Brown is better than Chris Grant so what the **** would they know.

In Bont's direct timeline I guess I put Martin and Dangerfield ahead of him. But that's mainly because I'm told I have to by Ch7.

Two of those guys are better than Bont. Maybe three but at some point Martin being kinda pretty shit for half of his career and only turning up for all of one home and away season has to count against him.

[hujsh]

I can see arguments for Franklin, Martin and GAj (though would probably have him in an era before Bont) but not Danger. No one else deserves a mention for me though I'm sure people are mounting a case for Daicos as we speak

[jeemak]

Pav was 2000-2016 so very little crossover with Bont's career.

That's why I asked how long an era is. But thanks for keeping me honest JD.

[jeemak]

I can see arguments for Franklin, Martin and GAj (though would probably have him in an era before Bont) but not Danger. No one else deserves a mention for me though I'm sure people are mounting a case for Daicos as we speak

It's a great comparison with Dangerfield:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=8&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=3921&pid2=2310&fid1=C&fid2=C

Eight AA gongs for Dangerfield. Only one AFLCA award versus Bont's two.

[Grantysghost]

He's better than Billings.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Defining eras is very difficult let alone comparisons of players across eras.

Franklin only overlapped with Bont whilst playing at Sydney.

Ablett was already at the suns when Bont got drafted.

I'd only consider Dusty part of the same era as Bont. Franklin and Ablett were before.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

He's better than Billings.

And Lewis. The dude who won the rising star.

Hell I can't even remember the guys name.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

He's better than Billings.

I could counter that by reminding you of the game in 2015 where Billings ripped the game apart to steer the saints to a mighty comeback. There were no other circumstances.

[Happy Days]

I could counter that by reminding you of the game in 2015 where Billings ripped the game apart to steer the saints to a mighty comeback. There were no other circumstances.

We’ve established that was actually mine and Jeemak’s fault.

[jeemak]

We’ve established that was actually mine and Jeemak’s fault.

Between that and Trade Dunkley's outcomes I've stopped predicting future outcomes.

[D Mitchell]

The ultimate Australian compliment, Australia Day and Queen's Birthday Honours notwithstanding, is to be identified by prefix of 'the' to your surname. The Don, the Bont.

[jeemak]

Unfortunately for EJ the worst thing you can have in front of your name post the 80s outbreak of pedo activity is "Mr".

[D Mitchell]

The Bont. He's earned the ultimate honorific. There's never been a better 'the' to have worn the jumper,

[hujsh]

It's a great comparison with Dangerfield:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=8&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=3921&pid2=2310&fid1=C&fid2=C

Eight AA gongs for Dangerfield. Only one AFLCA award versus Bont's two.

Similar average possessions but if you had to pick someone to kick you the ball on the lead there's no way you're choosing Danger. As far as impact goes I can't rely on the stats for Bont

[Uninformed]

I saw a lot of games with EJ at Western (Whitten) Oval.

I don't think that you can compare eras. But you can assess the impact of a player in his era.

In his era EJ was clearly, and by a large margin, the single best player in the competition bar none for a very long time.

The closest I have seen since then for a level of dominance is GAJ. He is the only one I have seen that is close, but still not at the level of EJ. His father falls somewhere behind him and other names do not rate.

I don't think our Bont has GAJ covered yet, but he could do so in time. Whether he gets to EJ remains to be seen.

As a spectator Bont is similar to watch as EJ. He does things nobody else can and can carry a team as EJ did. It is a joy to watch them.

Similarly Granty and Dougie were a joy to watch.

[Scorlibo]

EJ was the defining player of his era, I struggle to wrap my head around how Bont can be considered better than him in lieu of him not being considered in the top five of his.

THIS.

I'm increasingly irritated by the media circle jerk around Bont being the greatest Bulldog because it's a thinly veiled clip at our past greats - that or just plain ignorance.

My grandfather was adamant that Teddy was the best he'd seen, and he wasn't as one-eyed as I am. Said he could be best on ground no matter where he played, and he played everywhere. Mike Sheahan had him at number 3 in his top 50 of all time 20 or so years ago and there were complaints that he wasn't number 1. He's in the conversation as the greatest of all time.

So if Bont is better than EJ then the corollary is that Bont is in the conversation for the greatest of all time. Yet I'd bet that if you were to ask any of these seagulls to rank Bont in an all time list they'd probably put him down in the 40s or something. It's so disrespectful to EJ.

Kane Cornes made a list of the top players since 2010, and had Bont 4th behind Ablett, Franklin and Martin. I think most would also have Dangerfield ahead. Then if you walk it back by another decade most would have Riewoldt, Judd, Voss, Buckley and Pavlich ahead too.

Just shows how casually our players are discarded from history, and how irrelevant we still are in the eyes of most.

[Hotdog60]

I think we are getting of track a bit by comparing other players from other clubs as the article is referencing the greatest Bulldog player.

Not AFL player which opens up a whole other can of worms.

[Scorlibo]

I think we are getting of track a bit by comparing other players from other clubs as the article is referencing the greatest Bulldog player.

Not AFL player which opens up a whole other can of worms.

They're inseparable when our incumbent GOAT is also possibly the AFL/VFL's GOAT.

[bornadog]

I was a little Kid when EJ was playing and he was in his last years. Of the players I have seen play, I still rank Grant at the top, but Bont is closing in very fast and I would think he will surpass Chris.

I saw Grant in his first year as a 17 year old kicking 50 goals, and against some of the toughest fullbacks. But then again, it is hard to compare a KPP against a midfielder.

Different eras, different positions, how do you compare them

[jeemak]

Similar average possessions but if you had to pick someone to kick you the ball on the lead there's no way you're choosing Danger. As far as impact goes I can't rely on the stats for Bont

Dangerfield was an amazing inside to outside player. Absolute freak of nature on that front - he got it where it needed to be pretty much consistently quicker than anyone who's played the game. Bont is as well, there's not many things as amazing as him striding out of a contested ball scenario.

If Bont gets another flag then it's a no-contest scenario.

Someone who the media would put in the equation is Luke Hodge, even though he gets the Paul Roos half back free pass.

"Yeah, but Hodgey invented it, and I really want to have a beer with him".

[jeemak]

I think we are getting of track a bit by comparing other players from other clubs as the article is referencing the greatest Bulldog player.

Not AFL player which opens up a whole other can of worms.

Nets.*



*It's a short runway to the Nets these days.

[D Mitchell]

Dangerfield was an amazing inside to outside player. Absolute freak of nature on that front - he got it where it needed to be pretty much consistently quicker than anyone who's played the game. Bont is as well, there's not many things as amazing as him striding out of a contested ball scenario....

Objectively, no bias at all, Bont leaves Dangerfield, Hodge, Roos and anyone else who's played in the last 60 years in his wake. Bont does what blokes can't do. "It's him, of course it's him"

[jeemak]

I was a little Kid when EJ was playing and he was in his last years. Of the players I have seen play, I still rank Grant at the top, but Bont is closing in very fast and I would think he will surpass Chris.

I saw Grant in his first year as a 17 year old kicking 50 goals, and against some of the toughest fullbacks. But then again, it is hard to compare a KPP against a midfielder.

Different eras, different positions, how do you compare them

I used to remember looking up The Age stats on a Sunday and each week Grant's stats were ridiculous for about four years in a row. I lived in the east and didn't get to WO as much as I'd have liked so missed a lot of his football.

Living 750m from Waverley Park I should have gone to the 1992 elimination final against the Saints, but didn't because I had to go to a house in Ivanhoe to record my second choral singing album as a member of a choir. The album was never released.

I'd have gone to the other two finals that year but didn't for the same reason.........thanks angel voice.

[D Mitchell]

I used to remember looking up The Age stats on a Sunday and each week Grant's stats were ridiculous for about four years in a row. I lived in the east and didn't get to WO as much as I'd have liked so missed a lot of his football.

Living 750m from Waverley Park I should have gone to the 1992 elimination final against the Saints, but didn't because I had to go to a house in Ivanhoe to record my second choral singing album as a member of a choir. The album was never released.

I'd have gone to the other two finals that year but didn't for the same reason.........thanks angel voice.

It was the Semi, comfortable win over the Saints, brought back to earth in the Prelim by G'long with another 10 goal loss on top of the same margin in the Qualifying. Your mum and your choral ambitions did you a big favour, JM. If it makes you feel better, I share your pain, growing up in West Footscray when Footscray was really Footscray, playing footy with your mates on the vacant block next door and your mother (I had one just the same), coming out and calling over the fence "come inside D...ent, it's time for your piano practice", scarred for life

[jeemak]

It was the Semi, comfortable win over the Saints, brought back to earth in the Prelim by G'long with another 10 goal loss on top of the same margin in the Qualifying. Your mum and your choral ambitions did you a big favour, JM.

In those days a semi but technically an elimination final.

I'll tell my mum you said that.

[D Mitchell]

In those days a semi but technically an elimination final.

I'll tell my mum you said that.
OK but don't tell her about the following sentence and the scarring for life, mums mean well.

[D Mitchell]

I was a little Kid when EJ was playing and he was in his last years. Of the players I have seen play, I still rank Grant at the top, but Bont is closing in very fast and I would think he will surpass Chris.

I saw Grant in his first year as a 17 year old kicking 50 goals, and against some of the toughest fullbacks. But then again, it is hard to compare a KPP against a midfielder.

Different eras, different positions, how do you compare them

Ron McKeon gave young Chris a real welcome to VFL at Victoria Park, probably young Chris' 4th or 5th game.

[Hotdog60]

Nets.*



*It's a short runway to the Nets these days.

Well after nearly 5 and a half thousand posts getting to the nets sorta makes me feel I've finally made it. :)

[azabob]

I used to remember looking up The Age stats on a Sunday and each week Grant's stats were ridiculous for about four years in a row. I lived in the east and didn't get to WO as much as I'd have liked so missed a lot of his football.

Living 750m from Waverley Park I should have gone to the 1992 elimination final against the Saints, but didn't because I had to go to a house in Ivanhoe to record my second choral singing album as a member of a choir. The album was never released.

I'd have gone to the other two finals that year but didn't for the same reason.........thanks angel voice.

There are some things you just don’t put on the record.

[azabob]

THIS.

I'm increasingly irritated by the media circle jerk around Bont being the greatest Bulldog because it's a thinly veiled clip at our past greats - that or just plain ignorance.

My grandfather was adamant that Teddy was the best he'd seen, and he wasn't as one-eyed as I am. Said he could be best on ground no matter where he played, and he played everywhere. Mike Sheahan had him at number 3 in his top 50 of all time 20 or so years ago and there were complaints that he wasn't number 1. He's in the conversation as the greatest of all time.

So if Bont is better than EJ then the corollary is that Bont is in the conversation for the greatest of all time. Yet I'd bet that if you were to ask any of these seagulls to rank Bont in an all time list they'd probably put him down in the 40s or something. It's so disrespectful to EJ.

Kane Cornes made a list of the top players since 2010, and had Bont 4th behind Ablett, Franklin and Martin. I think most would also have Dangerfield ahead. Then if you walk it back by another decade most would have Riewoldt, Judd, Voss, Buckley and Pavlich ahead too.

Just shows how casually our players are discarded from history, and how irrelevant we still are in the eyes of most.

I guess the discussion on woof of where Bontempelli sits as an all time bulldog great is also a circle jerk?

Hard disagree by having the discussion is disrespectful to Whitten and our other past legends.

We as supporters should be proud that honoured that people outside of our four walls are acknowledging the greatness before our eyes. IMO by you shutting it down so mater of factly is disrespectful to Bontempelli.

All I know is other than Whitten no other player in our history has been consistently acknowledged as the games best or second best player for the past four odd years and long may it continue.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We?ve established that was actually mine and Jeemak?s fault.

I should have known.

[EasternWest]

For those of you that haven?t been lucky enough to see the clip, Sheahan says that he has an ongoing text chat with Kane Cornes. He said that they?re on opposite ends of the spectrum about the Dogs - that Kane is too harsh on Beveridge and, and that Sheahan thinks we?re a one man team.

You ever seen two guys take opposing arguments and both be wrong?

https://i.postimg.cc/0N5Dj1V6/images-27.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Scorlibo]

I guess the discussion on woof of where Bontempelli sits as an all time bulldog great is also a circle jerk

Absolutely not. My point wasn't to denigrate Bont, I think he's absolutely worthy of the discussion. My point is that the discussion is not just who is the best Bulldog ever, but who is the best player full stop, because that is where Ted Whitten sits. We're all aware of that, but the media personalities driving this narrative are not, because I haven't heard Bont mentioned as the GOAT even once.

[Grantysghost]

And Lewis. The dude who won the rising star.

Hell I can't even remember the guys name.

Lewis Taylor. Yeah what a terrible decision that was in hindsight.

[EasternWest]

Lewis Taylor. Yeah what a terrible decision that was in hindsight.

In hindsight?

[Happy Days]

https://i.postimg.cc/0N5Dj1V6/images-27.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I said opposing arguments

[Happy Days]

If there was any way to post pictures on this site I would have some really online stuff to show you

[Scraggers]

I was born when EJ played, but I don't ever remember him playing so its hard to compare apples and apples. When you talk best Bulldog ever, the first names mentioned are always going to be EJ, Dougie, Chris Grant and now Bont. Bont doing Bont things is a pleasure to watch, but there always seems to be a bit of unco-ness about him (he looks clumsy, even though he is very clean with his hands and by foot).

I have and will always be a Dougie fan ... he was the reason I became a Bulldogs supporter. But the Bont is best Bulldog I have seen play.

As a side note, do you think we can make the round-a-bout out the front of Bontempelli Oval (formally known as Whitten Oval) a little bigger for our homage to The Bont??

[EasternWest]

I said opposing arguments

https://i.postimg.cc/CxNK6BSt/images-28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[bornadog]

https://i.postimg.cc/CxNK6BSt/images-28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Gvgjr enters the room

[EasternWest]

Gvgjr enters the room

He can shut this one down but two more will rise in its place. I'm not stopping until the world is Setka'd

[Mofra]

Chris Grant had the yips but kicked 550 goals in half a career, coming second in the Brownlow as a CHB and polling the most votes as a CHF. Criminally underrated, unfortunately playing for a team that didn't get as much coverage as we might have liked.

Bont in his career to date is level with Grant as the best I've seen. He'll have him covered by the time it wraps up.

EJ was the defining player of his era, I struggle to wrap my head around how Bont can be considered better than him in lieu of him not being considered in the top five of his.

Does Bont have more competition than EJ did?
Less?

Jack Collins was a superstar. Charlie Sutton is a bullgod and Merv Hobbs was a Morris/Wood hybrid according to the old heads over heard talk about them.

[Countrydog5]

I always read this debate in a different way. When you compare EJ with Bont, I consider it as though we are comparing them player vs player and not in their own respective eras.

Yes EJ was dominant in his own era, and you could argue Bont may not even be in the conversation of best player for the last 20 years, but if you were to pit them one against each other in any era, Bont would be the superior player without question.

I know it's not that cut and dry, and EJ played in the era where football was not a professional sport by any means, but as far as football ability goes, I can't see how Bont will not end up as the best bulldog player to ever pull on the jumper. Could you imagine if we transported Bont back to the 50s to play footy? He'd be seen as an alien. 194cms tall, quick, strong, skilled and smart, running 14kms a game.

That's the fun of the discussion I suppose, you can't actually compare them, so we may as well just enjoy we're watching one of the all time greats in person and in high definition every weekend.

[Grantysghost]

He can shut this one down but two more will rise in its place. I'm not stopping until the world is Setka'd

Are unions a cult? I've got no idea legit question for EW.

[EasternWest]

Are unions a cult? I've got no idea legit question for EW.

Without question.

The fanatical cries and refrains of "union!!!" "POWER!!!" at union meetings are a frightening sight to behold.

I'm more scared there than anywhere else.

Zealots of any creed terrify me.

[Grantysghost]

Without question.

The fanatical cries and refrains of "union!!!" "POWER!!!" at union meetings are a frightening sight to behold.

I'm more scared there than anywhere else.

Zealots of any creed terrify me.

Haaa. Classic.

I think that's the best thing about dogs fans..... Zero ego.

[D Mitchell]

Less?

Jack Collins was a superstar. Charlie Sutton is a bullgod and Merv Hobbs was a Morris/Wood hybrid according to the old heads over heard talk about them.

Merv Hobbs was a 5ft 8in rover/forward pocket.

[Uninformed]

Merv Hobbs was a 5ft 8in rover/forward pocket.

Hobbs roving to John Schultz was one of the greatest combinations ever. Right their with Farmer/Goggin at Geelong and Nichols/Gallagher at Carlton. What Hobbs could do that they couldn't, though, was elevate for an absolute speckie.

[jeemak]

There are some things you just don?t put on the record.

Why not?

[jeemak]

Less?

Jack Collins was a superstar. Charlie Sutton is a bullgod and Merv Hobbs was a Morris/Wood hybrid according to the old heads over heard talk about them.

I meant more broadly across the competition, in his era.

[Bulldog Joe]

I always read this debate in a different way. When you compare EJ with Bont, I consider it as though we are comparing them player vs player and not in their own respective eras.

Yes EJ was dominant in his own era, and you could argue Bont may not even be in the conversation of best player for the last 20 years, but if you were to pit them one against each other in any era, Bont would be the superior player without question.

I know it's not that cut and dry, and EJ played in the era where football was not a professional sport by any means, but as far as football ability goes, I can't see how Bont will not end up as the best bulldog player to ever pull on the jumper. Could you imagine if we transported Bont back to the 50s to play footy? He'd be seen as an alien. 194cms tall, quick, strong, skilled and smart, running 14kms a game.

That's the fun of the discussion I suppose, you can't actually compare them, so we may as well just enjoy we're watching one of the all time greats in person and in high definition every weekend.

The counter to this would be the actual improvement EJ would have achieved with the professional era and improved training and sport science.

EJ was universally considered the BEST of his era.
Bont is superb but the modern professional era has elevated the game, so the stars just need to be better.

Comparing EJ and Bont is a little like comparing Herb Elliott with the next Olympic 1500 winner.

Elliot was dominant above all his peers to an unrivalled extent.
Even though the current runners all record better times they don't match the dominance.

[D Mitchell]

Hobbs roving to John Schultz was one of the greatest combinations ever. Right their with Farmer/Goggin at Geelong and Nichols/Gallagher at Carlton. What Hobbs could do that they couldn't, though, was elevate for an absolute speckie.

Interesting perspective. 1961, Hobbs' first year, aside, the Club was awful in the early to mid '60s so that aspect didn't get much airing. Smart bloke, Hobbs, he'd grown up in Spotswood or one of those suburbs between Footscray and Willi. He worked out that the Club looked first at Country leagues before local leagues in recruiting so went bush hence recruited from Daylesford. He coached in the western suburbs and ended up as a president of Williamstown FC. He set up a printing business and called it "Hi Mark Press", promoted by the famous mark over Trevor Johnson.

[Axe Man]

Interesting perspective. 1961, Hobbs' first year, aside, the Club was awful in the early to mid '60s so that aspect didn't get much airing. Smart bloke, Hobbs, he'd grown up in Spotswood or one of those suburbs between Footscray and Willi. He worked out that the Club looked first at Country leagues before local leagues in recruiting so went bush hence recruited from Daylesford. He coached in the western suburbs and ended up as a president of Williamstown FC. He set up a printing business and called it "Hi Mark Press", promoted by the famous mark over Trevor Johnson.

Do you know why he retired from VFL at just 23?

Edit: Just read it was a serious knee injury. What a shame.

[D Mitchell]

Do you know why he retired from VFL at just 23?

Edit: Just read it was a serious knee injury. What a shame.
...and at pre season training, hello Bailey Smith, the dreaded knee. It's fair to say that but for the knee, he couldabeen. A prequel to Cooney.

[bornadog]

...and at pre season training,

It was in a preseason game (Ansett cup or whatever they called it) with a minute left on the clock

[D Mitchell]

...

Elliot was dominant above all his peers to an unrivalled extent.....

According to Harry Gordon (Journalist, author of the Elliott Bio) Never beaten over a mile or 1,500 metres. That's Don Bradman territory.

[D Mitchell]

It was in a preseason game (Ansett cup or whatever they called it) with a minute left on the clock

The VFL/AFL pre season Cups started in 1988, Hobbs' knee was in 1966. I concede that I didn't attend any of the preseason training sessions in 1966 so rely on the unreliability of memory of what was in the Footscray Advertiser or Footscray Mail (ah, memories). What's the source ?

[Axe Man]

Sorry for getting off topic but this is a great article published just prior to the 2016 prelim v GWS:

AFL finals: New Dogs pulling off old tricks at Footscray (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-finals-new-dogs-pulling-off-old-tricks-at-footscray-20160921-grl8yc.html)

The Bulldogs were young, fast, full of momentum and excited about it. They won two finals in a row and put a summary end to the season of maybe the greatest team of all. As in 2016, so in 1961.

The Bulldogs, nee Footscray, have only won one preliminary final, that one. To reach their only other grand final, in 1954, they proceeded directly from the second semi-final. In the big one, they beat Melbourne. The Demons played in the next six grand finals, and won five premierships, until stopped again by the Dogs in the '61 preliminary. Footy is full of poetical parentheses.

In 1961, gentleman ruckman John Schultz was best-on-ground and diminutive rover Merv Hobbs just about vaulted Melbourne's Tassie Johnson, his legs bending up behind him as he flew, to take a mark for the ages. Hobbs says he has met 200,000 people who were there to see it. Hobbs would like it known that he did other things in footy. But he would also like it to be remembered that he went back and kicked the goal that finished off Melbourne.

Long before interchange, rover Hobbs was "resting" in the forward pocket and ruckman Johnson "resting" in the back pocket. Some rest! Schultz remembers that Hobbs did not ride Johnson in the usual way. "I didn't touch him," Hobbs said. "I had a bit of a natural spring. I used to practise on my brother in the back bedroom for years." He says he took many similar marks in juniors and at Daylesford, but a sharp photographer froze and immortalised this one.

Hobbs, remember, stood 172 centimetres. "The only bloke shorter than me is probably the little fellow who's playing for Footscray at the moment," he said.

Years later, journalist Scott Palmer took Hobbs and the late, legendary Ted Whitten to the MCG to re-enact the mark for a Channel 7 special. Hobbs remembers that Palmer caught and tore his pants to the backside on the picket fence as they tried to climb it, and had to be rescued by Whitten and himself. Camera rolling, Palmer asked Whitten about the mark. "It was f--- beautiful," he exclaimed. Flustered, Palmer stopped the shoot and asked for a more presentable take. "It was like a rocket taking off from Cape Canaveral," said Whitten.

Hobbs was Bulldog through and through. He grew up in West Footscray, with a Footscray player boarding in the next bedroom. At two, he was a mascot. At nine was "signed" by the Dogs, and soon playing in their junior team. But because of an imminent change of zones that would have put him in South Melbourne's clutches, Footscray packed him off to Daylesford at 16. He has fond memories still.

After three games of the 1961 season, still just 18, he was leading the competition goalkicking and the Courier Medal voting and the Dogs decided to bring him back. But a clearance wrangle developed, keeping him out for a month, and was resolved only when Hobbs paid ?20 out of his own pocket. In round eight, he played his first Footscray game.

Schultz had come from the other direction, from Caulfield Grammar, where he was high jump champion, via Boort. Hobbs remembers a man so humble that one day he asked his father, also Merv, how he might stop dropping marks. This was after he had won the 1960 Brownlow Medal. Hobbs, senior, suggested that he was closing his eyes at impact.

The 1961 season developed to a point where Footscray and Geelong effectively played off in the last round for a place in the finals. More than 42,000, easily the biggest crowd of the round, crammed the Western Oval, undeterred by the elements. "Cripes, it pissed down rain," said Hobbs. "There was mud and shit everywhere."

The Dogs won, and the next week beat St Kilda in the first semi. They were brimming with youthful verve. Their average age was barely 22, with only two players older than 24. Compare that with the "young" Bulldogs now, average age 24?. Schultz and Hobbs both see shades of their Bulldog team in today's. "We were very young," said Schultz. "We were all of the same era. We were quick and keen and eager." Or as Hobbs put it: "We ran like buggery."

The flick pass, a half-throw, was in vogue, perfected by Whitten, and his Dogs used it to set a blistering pace. Formidable Melbourne, with Ron Barassi at his peak, did not scare them. "Our attitude was, we're on a roll, let's go as far as we can," said Schultz. Schultz also distinctly remembers a televised interview Melbourne's John Lord gave after the Demons had lost the second semi-final to Hawthorn. "We'll beat them next time," Lord had said. But what about Footscray, he was asked? "Oh, we'll beat them." "I was irritated by that," said Schultz.

The Bulldogs jumped Melbourne and won easing down by 27 points. But Hawthorn in the grand final was another matter. The Hawks were in the charge of John Kennedy, and this team was his incipient Kennedy's Commandos. Centreman Brendan Edwards, a fitness fanatic way ahead of his time, worked with Kennedy to drill the Hawks as no team before them. "They were super fit," said Schultz. "You'd hear rumours." When it comes to an edge in fitness, you still do!

"They'd have wheat bags on their backs," said Schultz, "and they'd run up mountains just to get themselves fit. We were pretty fast, but we weren't physically built up like Hawthorn."

The day was hot, and although the Dogs led by eight points at half-time, they knew they were in trouble. "There were eight of us in the first-aid room," said Hobbs. Remembered Schultz: "The selectors looked around and could see we were in a bad way. In those days, strange to realise, we didn't hydrate. We were told not to drink too much in case we got cramps. We just ran out of legs. And Hawthorn were brutal. They made every contest a physical clash. They wore us down." In the second half, the Hawks scooted away to win their first premiership.

In footy, there is no time like now. The youthful Dogs might have imagined a gathering era, but they did not play finals again for 13 years, and had not won two finals in a row from that September to this. Schultz went on to win five best-and-fairests and a place in the AFL Hall of Fame. But in the pre-season of 1966, Hobbs' knee sprang apart. "These days, I'd be off for 12 months, then play for another 10 years," he said. He remembers the doctor saying to club secretary Ted Collins: "The kid won't play sport again." "It was a nice kick up the bum," he said.

He started his own printing business, but did play on, spasmodically, in the VFA and elsewhere, also coached Footscray's under 19s and served as Williamstown's president. He played his last game at 52, for the Hervey Bay reserves in Queensland. "I couldn't help myself," he said. "I finished up with a black eye. They had to push me out of bed for three weeks."

Now 74, he lives in Ararat, playing golf and this week tipping 125 millimetres of water out of his rain gauge. He loves what he sees of the 2016 Bulldogs, but is worried about Greater Western Sydney. "They're a bloody good side," he said. "If the Bulldogs can beat them, they'll go premiers. I've got no fears about the other two sides." Hobbs will have his fingers crossed especially on behalf of three old Western Oval mates who are, shall we say, struggling for match fitness.

Schultz, 77, served the club in sundry roles, and also on the league tribunal, and is still involved with the Dogs as a mentor. He lives at Shoreham, with a sweeping view of Phillip Island, and plays golf and tennis. His wife, Elaine, died three years ago. "Tell you what, she was keener on the Bulldogs than me," he said. "She'll be looking down from up there."

Schultz cherishes this Bulldogs team for their resilience and their poise, but especially the hope they have inspired. "You've only got to look at the expressions on the faces at training last week," he said. "It was only training, but some of them had tears in their eyes."

Some things have their day: amateurs (Schultz was one), Mervs, resting ruckmen and rovers, Cape Canaveral in everyday conversation. And some never will, like the frisson in Melbourne when the Bulldogs get up a head of September steam.

[EasternWest]

Sorry for getting off topic but this is a great article published just prior to the 2016 prelim v GWS:

AFL finals: New Dogs pulling off old tricks at Footscray (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-finals-new-dogs-pulling-off-old-tricks-at-footscray-20160921-grl8yc.html)

The Bulldogs were young, fast, full of momentum and excited about it. They won two finals in a row and put a summary end to the season of maybe the greatest team of all. As in 2016, so in 1961.

The Bulldogs, nee Footscray, have only won one preliminary final, that one. To reach their only other grand final, in 1954, they proceeded directly from the second semi-final. In the big one, they beat Melbourne. The Demons played in the next six grand finals, and won five premierships, until stopped again by the Dogs in the '61 preliminary. Footy is full of poetical parentheses.

In 1961, gentleman ruckman John Schultz was best-on-ground and diminutive rover Merv Hobbs just about vaulted Melbourne's Tassie Johnson, his legs bending up behind him as he flew, to take a mark for the ages. Hobbs says he has met 200,000 people who were there to see it. Hobbs would like it known that he did other things in footy. But he would also like it to be remembered that he went back and kicked the goal that finished off Melbourne.

Long before interchange, rover Hobbs was "resting" in the forward pocket and ruckman Johnson "resting" in the back pocket. Some rest! Schultz remembers that Hobbs did not ride Johnson in the usual way. "I didn't touch him," Hobbs said. "I had a bit of a natural spring. I used to practise on my brother in the back bedroom for years." He says he took many similar marks in juniors and at Daylesford, but a sharp photographer froze and immortalised this one.

Hobbs, remember, stood 172 centimetres. "The only bloke shorter than me is probably the little fellow who's playing for Footscray at the moment," he said.

Years later, journalist Scott Palmer took Hobbs and the late, legendary Ted Whitten to the MCG to re-enact the mark for a Channel 7 special. Hobbs remembers that Palmer caught and tore his pants to the backside on the picket fence as they tried to climb it, and had to be rescued by Whitten and himself. Camera rolling, Palmer asked Whitten about the mark. "It was f--- beautiful," he exclaimed. Flustered, Palmer stopped the shoot and asked for a more presentable take. "It was like a rocket taking off from Cape Canaveral," said Whitten.

Hobbs was Bulldog through and through. He grew up in West Footscray, with a Footscray player boarding in the next bedroom. At two, he was a mascot. At nine was "signed" by the Dogs, and soon playing in their junior team. But because of an imminent change of zones that would have put him in South Melbourne's clutches, Footscray packed him off to Daylesford at 16. He has fond memories still.

After three games of the 1961 season, still just 18, he was leading the competition goalkicking and the Courier Medal voting and the Dogs decided to bring him back. But a clearance wrangle developed, keeping him out for a month, and was resolved only when Hobbs paid ?20 out of his own pocket. In round eight, he played his first Footscray game.

Schultz had come from the other direction, from Caulfield Grammar, where he was high jump champion, via Boort. Hobbs remembers a man so humble that one day he asked his father, also Merv, how he might stop dropping marks. This was after he had won the 1960 Brownlow Medal. Hobbs, senior, suggested that he was closing his eyes at impact.

The 1961 season developed to a point where Footscray and Geelong effectively played off in the last round for a place in the finals. More than 42,000, easily the biggest crowd of the round, crammed the Western Oval, undeterred by the elements. "Cripes, it pissed down rain," said Hobbs. "There was mud and shit everywhere."

The Dogs won, and the next week beat St Kilda in the first semi. They were brimming with youthful verve. Their average age was barely 22, with only two players older than 24. Compare that with the "young" Bulldogs now, average age 24?. Schultz and Hobbs both see shades of their Bulldog team in today's. "We were very young," said Schultz. "We were all of the same era. We were quick and keen and eager." Or as Hobbs put it: "We ran like buggery."

The flick pass, a half-throw, was in vogue, perfected by Whitten, and his Dogs used it to set a blistering pace. Formidable Melbourne, with Ron Barassi at his peak, did not scare them. "Our attitude was, we're on a roll, let's go as far as we can," said Schultz. Schultz also distinctly remembers a televised interview Melbourne's John Lord gave after the Demons had lost the second semi-final to Hawthorn. "We'll beat them next time," Lord had said. But what about Footscray, he was asked? "Oh, we'll beat them." "I was irritated by that," said Schultz.

The Bulldogs jumped Melbourne and won easing down by 27 points. But Hawthorn in the grand final was another matter. The Hawks were in the charge of John Kennedy, and this team was his incipient Kennedy's Commandos. Centreman Brendan Edwards, a fitness fanatic way ahead of his time, worked with Kennedy to drill the Hawks as no team before them. "They were super fit," said Schultz. "You'd hear rumours." When it comes to an edge in fitness, you still do!

"They'd have wheat bags on their backs," said Schultz, "and they'd run up mountains just to get themselves fit. We were pretty fast, but we weren't physically built up like Hawthorn."

The day was hot, and although the Dogs led by eight points at half-time, they knew they were in trouble. "There were eight of us in the first-aid room," said Hobbs. Remembered Schultz: "The selectors looked around and could see we were in a bad way. In those days, strange to realise, we didn't hydrate. We were told not to drink too much in case we got cramps. We just ran out of legs. And Hawthorn were brutal. They made every contest a physical clash. They wore us down." In the second half, the Hawks scooted away to win their first premiership.

In footy, there is no time like now. The youthful Dogs might have imagined a gathering era, but they did not play finals again for 13 years, and had not won two finals in a row from that September to this. Schultz went on to win five best-and-fairests and a place in the AFL Hall of Fame. But in the pre-season of 1966, Hobbs' knee sprang apart. "These days, I'd be off for 12 months, then play for another 10 years," he said. He remembers the doctor saying to club secretary Ted Collins: "The kid won't play sport again." "It was a nice kick up the bum," he said.

He started his own printing business, but did play on, spasmodically, in the VFA and elsewhere, also coached Footscray's under 19s and served as Williamstown's president. He played his last game at 52, for the Hervey Bay reserves in Queensland. "I couldn't help myself," he said. "I finished up with a black eye. They had to push me out of bed for three weeks."

Now 74, he lives in Ararat, playing golf and this week tipping 125 millimetres of water out of his rain gauge. He loves what he sees of the 2016 Bulldogs, but is worried about Greater Western Sydney. "They're a bloody good side," he said. "If the Bulldogs can beat them, they'll go premiers. I've got no fears about the other two sides." Hobbs will have his fingers crossed especially on behalf of three old Western Oval mates who are, shall we say, struggling for match fitness.

Schultz, 77, served the club in sundry roles, and also on the league tribunal, and is still involved with the Dogs as a mentor. He lives at Shoreham, with a sweeping view of Phillip Island, and plays golf and tennis. His wife, Elaine, died three years ago. "Tell you what, she was keener on the Bulldogs than me," he said. "She'll be looking down from up there."

Schultz cherishes this Bulldogs team for their resilience and their poise, but especially the hope they have inspired. "You've only got to look at the expressions on the faces at training last week," he said. "It was only training, but some of them had tears in their eyes."

Some things have their day: amateurs (Schultz was one), Mervs, resting ruckmen and rovers, Cape Canaveral in everyday conversation. And some never will, like the frisson in Melbourne when the Bulldogs get up a head of September steam.

Off topic you say? Can I Setka this thread?

[D Mitchell]

Sorry for getting off topic but this is a great article published just prior to the 2016 prelim v GWS:

AFL finals: New Dogs pulling off old tricks at Footscray (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-finals-new-dogs-pulling-off-old-tricks-at-footscray-20160921-grl8yc.html)

The Bulldogs were young, fast, full of momentum and excited about it. They won two finals in a row and put a summary end to the season of maybe the greatest team of all. As in 2016, so in 1961.

The Bulldogs, nee Footscray, have only won one preliminary final, that one. To reach their only other grand final, in 1954, they proceeded directly from the second semi-final. In the big one, they beat Melbourne. The Demons played in the next six grand finals, and won five premierships, until stopped again by the Dogs in the '61 preliminary. Footy is full of poetical parentheses.

In 1961, gentleman ruckman John Schultz was best-on-ground and diminutive rover Merv Hobbs just about vaulted Melbourne's Tassie Johnson, his legs bending up behind him as he flew, to take a mark for the ages. Hobbs says he has met 200,000 people who were there to see it. Hobbs would like it known that he did other things in footy. But he would also like it to be remembered that he went back and kicked the goal that finished off Melbourne.

Long before interchange, rover Hobbs was "resting" in the forward pocket and ruckman Johnson "resting" in the back pocket. Some rest! Schultz remembers that Hobbs did not ride Johnson in the usual way. "I didn't touch him," Hobbs said. "I had a bit of a natural spring. I used to practise on my brother in the back bedroom for years." He says he took many similar marks in juniors and at Daylesford, but a sharp photographer froze and immortalised this one.

Hobbs, remember, stood 172 centimetres. "The only bloke shorter than me is probably the little fellow who's playing for Footscray at the moment," he said.

Years later, journalist Scott Palmer took Hobbs and the late, legendary Ted Whitten to the MCG to re-enact the mark for a Channel 7 special. Hobbs remembers that Palmer caught and tore his pants to the backside on the picket fence as they tried to climb it, and had to be rescued by Whitten and himself. Camera rolling, Palmer asked Whitten about the mark. "It was f--- beautiful," he exclaimed. Flustered, Palmer stopped the shoot and asked for a more presentable take. "It was like a rocket taking off from Cape Canaveral," said Whitten.

Hobbs was Bulldog through and through. He grew up in West Footscray, with a Footscray player boarding in the next bedroom. At two, he was a mascot. At nine was "signed" by the Dogs, and soon playing in their junior team. But because of an imminent change of zones that would have put him in South Melbourne's clutches, Footscray packed him off to Daylesford at 16. He has fond memories still.

After three games of the 1961 season, still just 18, he was leading the competition goalkicking and the Courier Medal voting and the Dogs decided to bring him back. But a clearance wrangle developed, keeping him out for a month, and was resolved only when Hobbs paid ?20 out of his own pocket. In round eight, he played his first Footscray game.

Schultz had come from the other direction, from Caulfield Grammar, where he was high jump champion, via Boort. Hobbs remembers a man so humble that one day he asked his father, also Merv, how he might stop dropping marks. This was after he had won the 1960 Brownlow Medal. Hobbs, senior, suggested that he was closing his eyes at impact.

The 1961 season developed to a point where Footscray and Geelong effectively played off in the last round for a place in the finals. More than 42,000, easily the biggest crowd of the round, crammed the Western Oval, undeterred by the elements. "Cripes, it pissed down rain," said Hobbs. "There was mud and shit everywhere."

The Dogs won, and the next week beat St Kilda in the first semi. They were brimming with youthful verve. Their average age was barely 22, with only two players older than 24. Compare that with the "young" Bulldogs now, average age 24?. Schultz and Hobbs both see shades of their Bulldog team in today's. "We were very young," said Schultz. "We were all of the same era. We were quick and keen and eager." Or as Hobbs put it: "We ran like buggery."

The flick pass, a half-throw, was in vogue, perfected by Whitten, and his Dogs used it to set a blistering pace. Formidable Melbourne, with Ron Barassi at his peak, did not scare them. "Our attitude was, we're on a roll, let's go as far as we can," said Schultz. Schultz also distinctly remembers a televised interview Melbourne's John Lord gave after the Demons had lost the second semi-final to Hawthorn. "We'll beat them next time," Lord had said. But what about Footscray, he was asked? "Oh, we'll beat them." "I was irritated by that," said Schultz.

The Bulldogs jumped Melbourne and won easing down by 27 points. But Hawthorn in the grand final was another matter. The Hawks were in the charge of John Kennedy, and this team was his incipient Kennedy's Commandos. Centreman Brendan Edwards, a fitness fanatic way ahead of his time, worked with Kennedy to drill the Hawks as no team before them. "They were super fit," said Schultz. "You'd hear rumours." When it comes to an edge in fitness, you still do!

"They'd have wheat bags on their backs," said Schultz, "and they'd run up mountains just to get themselves fit. We were pretty fast, but we weren't physically built up like Hawthorn."

The day was hot, and although the Dogs led by eight points at half-time, they knew they were in trouble. "There were eight of us in the first-aid room," said Hobbs. Remembered Schultz: "The selectors looked around and could see we were in a bad way. In those days, strange to realise, we didn't hydrate. We were told not to drink too much in case we got cramps. We just ran out of legs. And Hawthorn were brutal. They made every contest a physical clash. They wore us down." In the second half, the Hawks scooted away to win their first premiership.

In footy, there is no time like now. The youthful Dogs might have imagined a gathering era, but they did not play finals again for 13 years, and had not won two finals in a row from that September to this. Schultz went on to win five best-and-fairests and a place in the AFL Hall of Fame. But in the pre-season of 1966, Hobbs' knee sprang apart. "These days, I'd be off for 12 months, then play for another 10 years," he said. He remembers the doctor saying to club secretary Ted Collins: "The kid won't play sport again." "It was a nice kick up the bum," he said.

He started his own printing business, but did play on, spasmodically, in the VFA and elsewhere, also coached Footscray's under 19s and served as Williamstown's president. He played his last game at 52, for the Hervey Bay reserves in Queensland. "I couldn't help myself," he said. "I finished up with a black eye. They had to push me out of bed for three weeks."

Now 74, he lives in Ararat, playing golf and this week tipping 125 millimetres of water out of his rain gauge. He loves what he sees of the 2016 Bulldogs, but is worried about Greater Western Sydney. "They're a bloody good side," he said. "If the Bulldogs can beat them, they'll go premiers. I've got no fears about the other two sides." Hobbs will have his fingers crossed especially on behalf of three old Western Oval mates who are, shall we say, struggling for match fitness.

Schultz, 77, served the club in sundry roles, and also on the league tribunal, and is still involved with the Dogs as a mentor. He lives at Shoreham, with a sweeping view of Phillip Island, and plays golf and tennis. His wife, Elaine, died three years ago. "Tell you what, she was keener on the Bulldogs than me," he said. "She'll be looking down from up there."

Schultz cherishes this Bulldogs team for their resilience and their poise, but especially the hope they have inspired. "You've only got to look at the expressions on the faces at training last week," he said. "It was only training, but some of them had tears in their eyes."

Some things have their day: amateurs (Schultz was one), Mervs, resting ruckmen and rovers, Cape Canaveral in everyday conversation. And some never will, like the frisson in Melbourne when the Bulldogs get up a head of September steam.

Since you've now completely wrecked this thread and stand to be banned, Axeman, I'm happy to pick over the bones. But because of an imminent change of zones that would have put him in South Melbourne's clutches, Footscray packed him off to Daylesford at 16. He has fond memories still That's different from what I'd heard/read. The older brother of a mate of mine played for the 2s in that era but when not selected and queried it, was told by a member of the selection committee that country boys were given preference which accommodated what I understood happened in Hobbs' case. Great article. Thanks.

[Grantysghost]

Off topic you say? Can I Setka this thread?

https://i.postimg.cc/3xzwWhCz/setka.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Shit yeah.

[D Mitchell]

It's about time footy kept out of politics.

[Bulldog Joe]

According to Harry Gordon (Journalist, author of the Elliott Bio) Never beaten over a mile or 1,500 metres. That's Don Bradman territory.

Interesting fact is that the last defeat ever suffered by Herb Elliott was over 1000 yards with a loss to Tasmanian Greg Blake.

Greg was personally known to me and unfortunately passed away with MND about 25 years ago.

[bornadog]

The VFL/AFL pre season Cups started in 1988, Hobbs' knee was in 1966. I concede that I didn't attend any of the preseason training sessions in 1966 so rely on the unreliability of memory of what was in the Footscray Advertiser or Footscray Mail (ah, memories). What's the source ?

source here (https://www.afl.com.au/news/1150397/i-had-wondered-hall-of-fame-honour-a-long-time-coming-for-bulldogs-great-kelvin-templeton)



He hurt his knee in the final minute of the last practice game the following year and came back for six matches at the end of the year.

My memory it was a cup game, but looks like it was a practice match, not a training mishap

[D Mitchell]

Interesting fact is that the last defeat ever suffered by Herb Elliott was over 1000 yards with a loss to Tasmanian Greg Blake.

Greg was personally known to me and unfortunately passed away with MND about 25 years ago.

According to Gordon, lesser athletes training under Percy Cerruty at Portsea would routinely defeat Elliott in training. There's a claim by Eastern Tasmania Athletics Club that its Greg Blake defeated Elliott over 880 yards "in the 1950s". I can't locate a reference to a 1,000 yards race. Bradman and Elliott, in that order alphabetically, are the nation's 2 best. Herb and the Don leave Ted and the Bont in their wake.

[D Mitchell]

source here (https://www.afl.com.au/news/1150397/i-had-wondered-hall-of-fame-honour-a-long-time-coming-for-bulldogs-great-kelvin-templeton)




My memory it was a cup game, but looks like it was a practice match, not a training mishap

The quote refers to 6 matches later in the season, AFL stats record no games in 1966, don't look at me, I was too busy enhancing my own stellar sports career to go to VFL games. Aren't threads more interesting when some clown (pointing at you, Axeman) derail them ?

[Bulldog Joe]

According to Gordon, lesser athletes training under Percy Cerruty at Portsea would routinely defeat Elliott in training. There's a claim by Eastern Tasmania Athletics Club that its Greg Blake defeated Elliott over 880 yards "in the 1950s". I can't locate a reference to a 1,000 yards race. Bradman and Elliott, in that order alphabetically, are the nation's 2 best. Herb and the Don leave Ted and the Bont in their wake.
I found the following quote relating to a Tasmanian Family History Publication.

"Meanwhile, on 9 January 1960, at. Sorrento, Victoria, Greg Blake became one of the few people to defeat Herb. Elliot, when he won a 1000 metre race in. 2.26.06 ..."

So that may have been at Sorrento while the 880 yd race was at North Hobart.

Pretty sure that 1000yd loss was the last time Elliott was defeated in his career.

[Axe Man]

The quote refers to 6 matches later in the season, AFL stats record no games in 1966, don't look at me, I was too busy enhancing my own stellar sports career to go to VFL games. Aren't threads more interesting when some clown (pointing at you, Axeman) derail them ?

I think you and BAD have your wires crossed here. We were talking about Merv Hobb's knee injury and BAD is talking about Templeton for some reason.

[jeemak]

This is Twodogs levels of thread hijacking! The two subjects confused aren't even in line with the thread topic.

[D Mitchell]

I think you and BAD have your wires crossed here. We were talking about Merv Hobb's knee injury and BAD is talking about Templeton for some reason.

Thankyou Axe Man, you are the cause of all this trouble.;)

[D Mitchell]

This is Twodogs levels of thread hijacking! The two subjects confused aren't even in line with the thread topic.

How to derail a thread. Axe Man is the expert.

[EasternWest]

This is Twodogs levels of thread hijacking! The two subjects confused aren't even in line with the thread topic.

https://i.postimg.cc/FzMFWQ7J/images-31.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[hujsh]

https://i.postimg.cc/FzMFWQ7J/images-31.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://winstonchurchill.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Churchill_in_tears-scaled-1-1024x818.jpg

[1eyedog]

Friends who knows how much I love the doggies ask me this a fair bit. "Is Bont your greatest player of all time?"

My answer is always the same. "I never saw EJ play. I can't answer that. All I can tell you is he's easily the best I've ever seen.

Now someone who DID see EJ play, and is one of the most respected names on the football media, thinks Bont may have caught him.

I would love to get everyone's thoughts on this.

I'm good with this.

[mjp]

Herb and the Don leave Ted and the Bont in their wake.

Well...

I don't want to throw shade on the greats of our nation - and those two athletes are 100% in that category - but Elliot raced against 7 other caucasians in his most famous win (world record, Olympic final in Rome) and no athletes from Africa...things are quite different in modern times.

The Bradman arguments are a similar.

No doubt in their time they were peerless athletes. But at least some of that could be attributed to their time.

[1eyedog]

Chris Grant had the yips but kicked 550 goals in half a career, coming second in the Brownlow as a CHB and polling the most votes as a CHF. Criminally underrated, unfortunately playing for a team that didn't get as much coverage as we might have liked.

Bont in his career to date is level with Grant as the best I've seen. He'll have him covered by the time it wraps up.

EJ was the defining player of his era, I struggle to wrap my head around how Bont can be considered better than him in lieu of him not being considered in the top five of his.

Does Bont have more competition than EJ did?

We're quarter of the way through this century. Do we think Bont will be named captain of the All Australian Team of the Century in 2100? Hard to know. E.J was.

[Axe Man]

https://i.postimg.cc/MG5hrL57/onion.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[bornadog]

How to derail a thread. Axe Man is the expert.

sorry I thought we were talking Kelvin? my fault

[D Mitchell]

Well...

I don't want to throw shade on the greats of our nation - and those two athletes are 100% in that category - but Elliot raced against 7 other caucasians in his most famous win (world record, Olympic final in Rome) and no athletes from Africa...things are quite different in modern times.

The Bradman arguments are a similar.

No doubt in their time they were peerless athletes. But at least some of that could be attributed to their time.

Ditto Ted and the Bont. They only competed against those within Australia, Ted within the southern states. African athletes competed in Rome, indeed, a Tunisian was in the 1500 metres. An Ethiopian won the Marathon, South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, competed although Tanzania didn't, the African distance running nations. 1960 was pre globalisation, that, American University Athletics Scholarships, fast tracked citizenships in Europe, the universal rise in living standards, are all factors that have broadened the range of finalists. In 1960, only Europeans, a couple of North Americans, an African and an Australian reached the final of the 1500 metres. Elliott was the best miler/1500 metre runner in the world.

[EasternWest]

sorry I thought we were talking Kelvin? my fault

I'm framing this.

[bornadog]

I'm framing this.
I better delete quickly :D

[mjp]

Ditto Ted and the Bont. They only competed against those within Australia, Ted within the southern states. African athletes competed in Rome, indeed, a Tunisian was in the 1500 metres. An Ethiopian won the Marathon, South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, competed although Tanzania didn't, the African distance running nations. 1960 was pre globalisation, that, American University Athletics Scholarships, fast tracked citizenships in Europe, the universal rise in living standards, are all factors that have broadened the range of finalists. In 1960, only Europeans, a couple of North Americans, an African and an Australian reached the final of the 1500 metres. Elliott was the best miler/1500 metre runner in the world.

I'm not arguing the bolded bit (or any of it to be fair). Though I did use my post as an excuse to rewatch the Elliot race in Rome (and Snell in the same event in Tokyo whilst I was there!) and certainly didn't pick out an athlete from Tunisia in the Rome race.

What I am saying is that comparing athletes based on achievements 60-years ago (Elliot) and 80-years ago (Bradman) with those today is simply not apples with apples as the environment has changed so much. In another 60-years we might be assessing the impact of Bont based on the socio-economic conditions of 2080 and the argument will again be flawed...

All we can do is appreciate the efforts of the greats in their time...trying to compare across eras - and in this case, across sports - is complete folly.

[azabob]

Back in the 1950's, 1960's was there a stark difference between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS that we saw in the late 70's and 80's?

Or was everything pretty much on equal footing.

[Bulldog Joe]

Back in the 1950's, 1960's was there a stark difference between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS that we saw in the late 70's and 80's?

Or was everything pretty much on equal footing.

I don't really know, but it would be pretty safe to assume that not everyone had an equal opportunity.

Results indicate a big advantage for Melbourne, but I would find it hard to believe that the cultural high ground at clubs like Carlton and Essendon wouldn't have had them at least trying their best to use any opportunity to cheat the system.

[D Mitchell]

I found the following quote relating to a Tasmanian Family History Publication.

"Meanwhile, on 9 January 1960, at Sorrento, Victoria, Greg Blake became one of the few people to defeat Herb. Elliot, when he won a 1000 metre race in. 2.26.06 ..."

So that may have been at Sorrento while the 880 yd race was at North Hobart.

Pretty sure that 1000yd loss was the last time Elliott was defeated in his career.

The 1,000 metre would have been a training race. Elliott trained at Percy Cerruty's camp at Portsea, among sand dunes. Sorrento would have been at the Sorrento Oval, where every man and his dog trained over summer when on holidays, including AFL footballers, the Power boys (Luke and Sam) regulars in their day, holiday house 'round the corner. Decades ago, I did laps with an Olympic fencer.

[Ozza]

Just going back to the Chris Grant and others comparisons...

Chris Grant was my absolute hero. I saw his entire career. I saw Johnson and West's entire careers also. Love all of them.

Bont is above all of these guys. Bont has been considered the best player in the league by most people for years now. I love Grant, but he was never considered the best player in the league for non-bulldogs supporters for any seasons really. Whereas pretty much everybody concedes Bont is the best, that he should win a brownlow etc.

The other thing is that Bont is an out an out match winner. He seizes the moment more than anybody else in our history.

I obviously didn't see EJ. So it is hard to compare. It would seem that EJ was considered the best in the league for a while too.
I'm not sure if EJ had the same quality around him or not - but of 20 seasons, EJ had 8 'winning' seasons, and played finals in 8 years.
Bont has had 8 'winning' seasons out of 11 and has already played more finals from 100 fewer games.
So I think Bont is stacking the record up in his favour.

I think if he adds another flag, it is irrefutable. If he wins a brownlow and/or multiple more AFL AA spots, an AFL MVP again and B&F;s...then it is headed that way too.

[bornadog]

Just going back to the Chris Grant and others comparisons...

Chris Grant was my absolute hero. I saw his entire career. I saw Johnson and West's entire careers also. Love all of them.

Bont is above all of these guys. Bont has been considered the best player in the league by most people for years now. I love Grant, but he was never considered the best player in the league for non-bulldogs supporters for any seasons really. Whereas pretty much everybody concedes Bont is the best, that he should win a brownlow etc.

The other thing is that Bont is an out an out match winner. He seizes the moment more than anybody else in our history.

I obviously didn't see EJ. So it is hard to compare. It would seem that EJ was considered the best in the league for a while too.
I'm not sure if EJ had the same quality around him or not - but of 20 seasons, EJ had 8 'winning' seasons, and played finals in 8 years.
Bont has had 8 'winning' seasons out of 11 and has already played more finals from 100 fewer games.
So I think Bont is stacking the record up in his favour.

I think if he adds another flag, it is irrefutable. If he wins a brownlow and/or multiple more AFL AA spots, an AFL MVP again and B&F;s...then it is headed that way too.

Great highlights here on clutch moments


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_VmHaYZ7Mw&ab_channel=BULLDOGSFOOTYHIGHLIGHTS

[Ozza]

To what degree does team performance come into the equation?
Ted and Doug only won 43% and 42% of the matches they played in (Bont 54%).

[bornadog]

To what degree does team performance come into the equation?
Ted and Doug only won 43% and 42% of the matches they played in (Bont 54%).

I don't think it should come into it as we are talking individual performance, but the media always bring up stuff like - he played in X amount of Premierships (when talking about the best).

I didn't really see Ted, but Doug was brilliant, especially in 1985. After his ACL, he slowed up a bit but was still an outstanding Champion.

For me, Bont has taken over Chris as my all time favourite and best player.

[Ozza]

I don't think it should come into it as we are talking individual performance, but the media always bring up stuff like - he played in X amount of Premierships (when talking about the best).

I didn't really see Ted, but Doug was brilliant, especially in 1985. After his ACL, he slowed up a bit but was still an outstanding Champion.

For me, Bont has taken over Chris as my all time favourite and best player.

I think it has to come into it at least to a small degree - as an influential player can be the difference towards a winning culture, and even in the ability to get over the line in a close game.