Sad, But True

[bulldogtragic]

Schache was on circa $330,000 with us - traded for a F4 - playing VFL at Casey
Hunter was on circa $700,000 with us - traded for a F3 - playing VFL at Casey

That?s over a million dollars in cap savings by moving them on. You can say it?s nice to have depth with Josh, or Hunter is a premiership player. Both true, and it?s perhaps sad to see a premiership hero out the door, but we?ve saved a bomb.

Or take Marcus Adams. Wanted out and with his injury history was a risk his body would not be in it for the long term. Bitterly sad for him concussion ended his career early. That trade netted two good picks.

Now,

We have guys on huge mo why playing a fair bit of VFL this year in CD & Macrae. My heart was in my mouth when English was sling tackled head first into the ground Friday night.

All three guys have been AA. But in the modern footy industry which is sad for loyalty (looking at you Baz) both ways, sometimes it?s better to move blokes on. Some kick on to refresh their career which is great for them. But like Hunter & Schache, they can unfortunately clog up someone else?s list and open up our salary cap such that we can re-sign everyone we want and still have $5M to throw at Barrass.

So what do you want see us do with:

CD - keep as $700,000 depth? Or say keep Garcia as depth for half that?
Macrae - keep as $800,000 depth as another HHF? Or go shopping with cash for something more addressing needs?
Tim - give him the extra years despite his concussion history? Stick firm?

I get it?s sad, not pleasant and that down side of falling in love with players over time. Guys that might bleed RW&B and be great club men. But it?s also true that player movements can be good for the club and gives players a new opportunity too.

So make the call - what should we do? Let these guys flirt with other clubs and have their managers look elsewhere, or shut it down?

[Grantysghost]

Josh Bruce retired too. Not sure what he was on.

[bulldogtragic]

Josh Bruce retired too. Not sure what he was on.

Wasn’t a hard decision for him to retire. This involves actively making decision to keep or move on. Decisions which some fans might not like, but may or may not be best for the club.

[azabob]

Great thread BT.

I am definitely sticking firm with our offer to Tim English.
My biggest concern now is not his concussion but if he chooses to leave, I seriously hope the club already knows this and is sounding out his replacement. History suggests if a player has not signed by now, they are on the way out the door.

You cannot compare Hunter, Macrae and Daniel. Hunter was pure evil for the culture, whereas by all reports Daniel and Macrae are brilliant club men and have been great this year despite not being first choice in their preferred position.

Having said that it is something we should be considering. IMO we should only entertain a trade for Macrae or Daneil if it is player driven.

I would be very hesitant to let both players go at seasons end especially with Smith all but out the door.

[Hotdog60]

I like both CD and Macrae but I learnt a long time ago (yes it was KT to Melbourne) that you don't get too attached to players and it becomes more about the club.
I wouldn't have both these players sitting in the VFL as depth when you can try a young kid instead so I would have a word to them at the end of the season that they may not figure in future plans and would they be happy if we could find another home for them.
If push come to shove we may have to pay some of their salary to help them. On Tim I would take the risk as I feel he is finally working out his ruck craft although he may never be dominate he can square the ledger and how many rucks can sprint away from a mid or HBF.

[comrade]

If they want to leave, do what?s best and work out a deal. If they want to stay and fight for their spot, I would keep them. Pretty bloody good 23rd/24th players.

[Happy Days]

Is there any impetus to tip them out? We’re apparently waving a million bucks in front of Tom Barrass and will probably have at least that much going out between Smith, Keath and maybe English.

They aren’t as good as they were but they also aren’t completely spent forces.

[ledge]

I like both CD and Macrae but I learnt a long time ago (yes it was KT to Melbourne) that you don't get too attached to players and it becomes more about the club.
I wouldn't have both these players sitting in the VFL as depth when you can try a young kid instead so I would have a word to them at the end of the season that they may not figure in future plans and would they be happy if we could find another home for them.
If push come to shove we may have to pay some of their salary to help them. On Tim I would take the risk as I feel he is finally working out his ruck craft although he may never be dominate he can square the ledger and how many rucks can sprint away from a mid or HBF.

I would say that chat to them was at the start of the year.
Bevo has turned to speed, neither have that physically although they do have it mentally.
I would say Liberatore is the only one who also doesn’t have it but his position means he doesn’t need leg speed.
Can they both play AFL still? Of course they can and very well but the club has decided they lack the skill we are using to go forward.
They are a very good back up.
I will trust the club, all players come to an end and I think Collingwoods problem result is in keeping Sidebottom and Pendlebury. No one would ever question they are great players but neither of them can put pressure on their opponent when they get the ball as they can’t run with speed and chase.
A clear path and game plan was decided over summer and it was what we are seeing now . I tend to believe it was Bevos idea as he was backed to deliver it.
Assistant coaches changed and I think it’s a plan that’s been established through the women’s as well looking at the VFLW results this year to the last few years.
That saying of doing the same thing and expecting a different result runs true.
Luckily it wasn’t a major change as we have a good list in the path we have decided to go.
A couple of players won’t fit that plan and it’s Macrae and Daniel.
Luckily they are still extremely good and we can actually get something of value if we trade them out at the end of the year.
Watch this space because I will back 100% who we get in will be fast in the legs.

[bornadog]

We can't afford to lose experienced players. If we can keep them and they are prepared to fight for their position then it is a win.

[Jeanette54]

I hate this time of year, in particular any trade discussion involving long serving great clubmen such as Caleb and Jack. They have become part of the fabric of this club, and can truly contribute to the development of young players in the twos, on the rare occasions they are not in the AFL side. Macrae, in particular, will be valuable when the intensity steps up in September.

And FWIW, IMHO ditch Baz (who seems much more interested in his social media presence than the club and appears to have already checked out) and do what you can to keep Tim. His mobility is so in keeping with the pace that is the key to the club's recent resurgence.

[Bulldog Joe]

I get that both Macrae and Daniel are overpaid for VFL and both would likely prefer to be best 22 somewhere.

If they were keen to stay would they consider renegotiating a contract to become more a mentor type role and assist with development.

Could be moved to rookie list to lessen impact on salary cap and transition towards coaching perhaps.

[EasternWest]

would they consider renegotiating a contract

No and nor should they

[Bulldog Joe]

No and nor should they

I realise it is very unlikely but not impossible, if they feel really connected

[mighty_west]

I'm all for keeping for experience and leadership, and can still play a role when needed and as comrade said great 23rd and 24th players, to have depth with players with that experience can only be a positive, a few injuries here and there and you know they are going to play a role and what you're going to get, expect massive pre seasons from both of them.

As far as contracts go, if they're happy enough to stay for less $$ then even better.

[mighty_west]

I realise it is very unlikely but not impossible, if they feel really connected

See their contracts out and then take a big pay cut if they're both happy to stay, i think that would be a win/win.

[Sedat]

No guarantees obviously, but all 3 of Daniel, Macrae and English have a live chance for a premiership in 2024 (a first one in English's case). I'm sure they are all singularly focused on that and that alone for the next few weeks, while their managers take care of all the off-field stuff on the quiet and without distraction.

What happens for the rest of 2024 will have a huge bearing on list management decisions at the end of the season. If the best case scenario eventuates for the club/them, I can see all 3 taking the opportunity for a lucrative payday/potential contract extension/guaranteed future senior minutes, and I suspect they would go with all our blessing. Conversely, I can see Smith having a rethink and potentially re-committing to the Bulldogs until free agency.

So much to play out at the end of the season, and I think all potential scenarios for all 4 players should be on the table. But first there's a 2024 premiership to focus solely on and strive for.

[Axe Man]

See their contracts out and then take a big pay cut if they're both happy to stay, i think that would be a win/win.

Daniel has 2 more years after this season and Macrae 3. They aren't likely to be hanging around if they are mostly playing VFL for all that time. Jack will be 33 at the end of this contract and a strong chance to retire if he sees it out. Tough decisions to be made by both the players and the club.

[Glove38]

I'm happy to back the club in but I wouldn't be actively pushing them out.

As long as we are honest with with them as to where they are at and treat them with the respect they deserve I'm OK. They want to stay and fight for their roles and understand that may mean they spend time at the VFL I'm happy to keep them, If they want to go for opportunity then they've earned the right as immortals of the club to pursue their career elsewhere.

For Timmy, happy for him to stay at the right price and length. We don't sell the farm for him.

[EasternWest]

I realise it is very unlikely but not impossible, if they feel really connected

I actually completely understand where you're coming from, but there's no reason they wouldn't feel really connected and see out their contracts.

Especially if the club makes it clear to them "we're just keeping you around because you're BullGods and great clubmen". It's pretty clear there's no bigger contract coming up next, so lockdown that second house while they can.

On another point, I'd actually be pretty annoyed if the club tried to do this anyway what message does I send?

[Bulldog Joe]

I actually completely understand where you're coming from, but there's no reason they wouldn't feel really connected and see out their contracts.

Especially if the club makes it clear to them "we're just keeping you around because you're BullGods and great clubmen". It's pretty clear there's no bigger contract coming up next, so lockdown that second house while they can.

On another point, I'd actually be pretty annoyed if the club tried to do this anyway what message does I send?

I am looking at the potential to move to the rookie list as (I believe) only 50% counts to salary cap.

Even an extra year on minimum payment to reduce the overall per year would be ok.

[bulldogtragic]

I am looking at the potential to move to the rookie list as (I believe) only 50% counts to salary cap.

Even an extra year on minimum payment to reduce the overall per year would be ok.

The rookie list change is different. Only the base wage of about $70,000 is excluded in the cap. So basically the two would still take up well over 10% if the salary cap even on the rookie list is my understanding. So I’m not sure that changes too much.

[Axe Man]

I am looking at the potential to move to the rookie list as (I believe) only 50% counts to salary cap.

Even an extra year on minimum payment to reduce the overall per year would be ok.

I'm fairly sure that is not correct as we could just put Bont on the rookie list and not count half his $1 million or whatever he earns a season. I believe it is a set amount per rookie that is excluded from the salary cap (it was $80,000, not sure if it's increased). So it doesn't really matter which players are on the rookie list from a salary cap point of view. The only advantage to be gained is having 6 rookies rather than 4 will give you a small extra amount outside the cap.

[Mofra]

I don't think we can count on another year of Bont/Libba/Treloar being so durable. We need depth in the mids and Macrae (and Sanders) are or next two in.

English? There's no replacement available that wouldn't send us backwards to a significant degree. I think we should sign him.

Baz nets us a first rounder. I love CD as a player and I still think he's an incredible kick under pressure but he's the one who is most likely to be shaken loose. He nets us cap, if he wants to go. Respectful discussion and give him what he wants - he can stay but if he wants to walk he gets to wherever he wants to go

[jeemak]

I think the contract dollars of all players mentioned in this thread would be overstated, with tenure being the major drivers.

A bit like Duryea and Crozier of years passed, form and fitness are fleeting and players can find themselves back in senior calculations pretty quickly. I'd give these guys the opportunity to flight for their lives providing their attitudes hit the mark.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

English is a no brainer. Get a deal I front of him. If he goes we can get a recycled ruck for A couple years.

Daniel - I would trade get whatever value you can as Saunders, Gags, Poulter, Garcia have all moved past him. What?s to say we don?t draft another young gun and be in better shape in 2 years

MaCrae. I see him a little different, I would be talking to him an and maybe move him into a coaching role in 12 months. Give him a year at Footscray and as played/development coach and a full time gig the year after. He just looks the type that would make that work