Western Bulldogs V Hawthorn - 2nd Elimination Final @ MCG Friday 6 Sep 2024 7:40PM AEST

[angelopetraglia]

The Hawks are doing some things other clubs don't. Smaller back line doesn't get exposed too often and they're addressing that.
Prepared to use players in negating/accountable roles where most clubs just back in their stars.

It will be fascinating to see how clubs handle them next year.

I really believe if we even broke even through the middle and had some fluid ball movement we could have hurt their backline. They just smashed us around the ball for two quarters.

[merantau]

The reality is that if they had kicked straight we would have been trounced by 10 goals. I don't place the blame anywhere else but ON THE PLAYERS. We entered the finals in good form. We had EVERYTHING to play for but we put in a putrid performance after quarter time! How do you do that? Where is the pride? The commitment? The desire?

Am I angry? You bet. I was very upbeat about this game and we were absolutely PUTRID.
Good players? Not many. Lobb, Daniel, Bramble, Richards in the first half, Dale, Williams , Darcy.
No accident that most of those I named were in the back half because that was where the game was played
English? Flat track bully. Treloar, Bont, Libba - what the hell happened? Newcomb? He must lick his lips every time he plays against us. Ditto Sicilly.
Very bad way to end the year - again

[angelopetraglia]

Half their score came from our defensive 50m chains. Sitting on the top deck tonight and we just could handle the pressure they brought.

They scored 7.5 from our defensive chains. We could not move the ball.

[angelopetraglia]

36 out of our 49 defensive chains were intercepted. Madness.

We simply could not move the ball. They could.

They used every inch of grass to spread our zone and if we didn?t commit wide they came through the middle. They play the MCG brilliantly.

[dog town]

36 out of our 49 defensive chains were intercepted. Madness.

We simply could not move the ball. They could.

They used every inch of grass to spread our zone and if we didn?t commit wide they came through the middle. They play the MCG brilliantly.
You’re right and we were a bit fumbly, safe and couldn’t chain out but from 10 minute mark of the second we got nailed at the contest. That allowed it to be on their terms. When we had territory they looked similar really but started winning it back in better positions.

[whythelongface]

36 out of our 49 defensive chains were intercepted. Madness.

We simply could not move the ball. They could.

They used every inch of grass to spread our zone and if we didn?t commit wide they came through the middle. They play the MCG brilliantly.

But why was the ball in our defensive half so often? Our mids were smashed. Hard to not negate this when you are constantly moving the ball out of your back half. Felt sorry for our defence tonight.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

But why was the ball in our defensive half so often? Our mids were smashed. Hard to not negate this when you are constantly moving the ball out of your back half. Felt sorry for our defence tonight.

Yeah as did I. The mids were absolutely pathetic. Disgraceful. Just like 2021 gf. Just like 2022 ef.

[JanLorMill]

But that is not your point. Your point is that Bevo is the new Hinkley. Spur of the moment stupid comment.
It?s a game thread but I maintain we ain?t winning another under bevo.

[angelopetraglia]

But why was the ball in our defensive half so often? Our mids were smashed. Hard to not negate this when you are constantly moving the ball out of your back half. Felt sorry for our defence tonight.

Agree. Mids also responsible for those defensive chains too. How many 50/50 moments did we have coming through the middle of the ground. They appeared to win every one that mattered.

The game was lost by our midfield. Agree 100%.

[JanLorMill]

As for English - we're not winning anything while he's first ruck we said that years ago

[merantau]

It's not the coach, ffs! It's the players! Name me a coach who's laid a tackle. Name me a coach who's missed a sitter from 25m out on a slight angle. Name me a coach who's fumbled all night. Give me a break!

[JanLorMill]

It's not the coach, ffs! It's the players! Name me a coach who's laid a tackle. Name me a coach who's missed a sitter from 25m out on a slight angle. Name me a coach who's fumbled all night. Give me a break!
Scott didn’t lay tackle last night either yet with a worse list in a preliminary

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's not the coach, ffs! It's the players! Name me a coach who's laid a tackle. Name me a coach who's missed a sitter from 25m out on a slight angle. Name me a coach who's fumbled all night. Give me a break!

Bevo was outcoached tonight pretty blatantly. The players were awful so it may not have mattered but our forward set-up was a shocker tonight. Their extra man killed us all night and our poor work rate/lack of speed hurt.

[whythelongface]

It?s a game thread but I maintain we ain?t winning another under bevo.

Again not what you said.

[1eyedog]

Absolute same midfield set up as the 21 Granny. Get smashed but left Libba in there and threw Richards forward. Was weird.

[dog town]

Scott didn’t lay tackle last night either yet with a worse list in a preliminary

Coaches have an enormous impact but you have a hand behind your back if the areas you rely on turn to dust. Some things went Mitchell’s way but we had major contributors down on effort and execution.

[JanLorMill]

Again not what you said.
So what? As if I was serious. Bevo got a lot brownie points for a premiership. Those points have disappeared.

[jeemak]

If you don't take the initiative that's fine, if you're prepared to put frontal pressure on instead of guarding space creating a stalemate between the arcs. But if you don't put that pressure on the opposition runs it deep and you're exposed to being smashed on the intercept game because you're starting from a long way back and you're not taking the initiative with ball movement.

Not sure if it was arrogance in planning, preparation and execution or all three, but before halfway through the second quarter it was clear where the game was headed.

Sitting on L1 in the forward pocket in line with the centre square wing line it was so bloody obvious which team was prepared to run and spread the field to give team mates diversity in options. We were lazy and pathetic in response to it, and just let them run it deep.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

After such a loss philosophy is a refuge.
As much as we are are passionate about our club and cannot be unfaithful and our feelings are tied to it, it is not us ultimately.
We must be our own champs...

[merantau]

It comes back to pride in performance. You know when you've played poorly and when you come up against that same opponent again if you don't steel yourself, and will yourself to do better, then where is your pride? Do you just throw up your arms and bend over?

[JanLorMill]

Coaches have an enormous impact but you have a hand behind your back if the areas you rely on turn to dust. Some things went Mitchell way but we had major contributors down on effort and execution.
Like relying on English to have an influence. 3 tall forwards. Players like Gallagher VDM McNeil to play well.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Library should consider retirement given his concussions and our need to replace him. Sadly.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Libba.

[whythelongface]

So what? As if I was serious. Bevo got a lot brownie points for a premiership. Those points have disappeared.

So why say it. A throw away line that is unnecessary

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think we were out coached, but it's not their fault Richards choked his second final, that our best player played the worst game of his career, or that our star young forward was lazy.

I'm not sure what you do with this group. Personnel's changed a bit but we're getting similar untrustworthy results in big finals.

[dog town]

Like relying on English is have an influence. 3 tall forwards. Players like Gallagher VDM McNeil to play well.

I wouldn’t have played Gallagher but if you think that cost us the game you’re in denial. The other two have done their job consistently when we have supply, we had 23 entires early in the last.

[angelopetraglia]

Turnovers were 77-59 and we had 84 less touches.

We were beaten the same way they beat us earlier in the year. Score from turnover.

Our game just broke down with the culmination of pressure they brought and the flood gates opened up half way through the second quarter.

[dog town]

I think we were out coached, but it's not their fault Richards choked his second final, that our best player played the worst game of his career, or that our star young forward was lazy.

I'm not sure what you do with this group. Personnel's changed a bit but we're getting similar untrustworthy results in big finals.
You can name lots of teams that have had bad finals performances to then respond well or poorly. We need to keep a level head.

[angelopetraglia]

You can name lots of teams that have had bad finals performances to then respond well or poorly. We need to keep a level head.

The Geelong football club for one. Had many shocking final exits over the years, but just keep showing up. Year after year.

[bornadog]

We urgently need a revamp of the midfield. Libba is cooked for starters and we rely on Bont too much. When he has a bad game, no one steps up.

[GVGjr]

I think we were out coached, but it's not their fault Richards choked his second final, that our best player played the worst game of his career, or that our star young forward was lazy.

I'm not sure what you do with this group. Personnel's changed a bit but we're getting similar untrustworthy results in big finals.

Just on Marra, and I don't know why, but I suspect his two worst performances of the season were against the Hawks.
For such a talented youngster there is a massive gap between his best and worst football.

[bornadog]

Just on Marra, and I don't know why, but I suspect his two worst performances of the season were against the Hawks.
For such a talented youngster there is a massive gap between his best and worst football.

Also didn't help that the delivery of the ball to him was not very good.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Geelong make the top 4 and routinely make PFs. There's gonna be some results against them on volume alone.

Premiership in 22. Martin the only reason they didn't take 2020.

We can't be compared to them whatsoever. Never finished top 4, flag in 16, humiliation in 21, poor in virtually every other final.

[GVGjr]

Also didn't help that the delivery of the ball to him was not very good.

Agreed, I guess given his body language looked poor it just made it worse.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Also didn't help that the delivery of the ball to him was not very good.

He was wanting the ball out the back a lot. He was lazy. There were a few bad kicks to him too but he needs to demand the ball a lot more often.

[jeemak]

How stone cold holding the ball was Breust in the first quarter, early on? For that not to be paid told me pretty early it might not be our night.

Not sure the two grabber was definitely outside the line, but it looked close. When that one sailed through for goals I knew it was really bad.

Note - umpires didn't cost us the game, that's not what I'm saying.

[jeemak]

He was wanting the ball out the back a lot. He was lazy. There were a few bad kicks to him too but he needs to demand the ball a lot more often.

It's his team mates fault they can't kick it 95 metres on a flat trajectory. He let them know about it too.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

How stone cold holding the ball was Breust in the first quarter, early on? For that not to be paid told me pretty early it might not be our night.

Not sure the two grabber was definitely outside the line, but it looked close. When that one sailed through for goals I knew it was really bad.

Note - umpires didn't cost us the game, that's not what I'm saying.

Breust was the sub.

I said to my mate after that mark that he'd kick the goal. It was in the script.

[angelopetraglia]

How stone cold holding the ball was Breust in the first quarter, early on? For that not to be paid told me pretty early it might not be our night.

Not sure the two grabber was definitely outside the line, but it looked close. When that one sailed through for goals I knew it was really bad.

Note - umpires didn't cost us the game, that's not what I'm saying.

It felt like every big call went against us. It did not help that they outnumbered us and made so much more noise. Umpires are easily influenced.

[bornadog]

The only explanation I have about tonight is we lost momentum after round 24 and then having a bye. We were similar in the mid season bye when we only beat North by 17 points and looked lack lustre.

The Bye must go.

[Mantis]

Just on Marra, and I don't know why, but I suspect his two worst performances of the season were against the Hawks.
For such a talented youngster there is a massive gap between his best and worst football.

Why the actual **** did we start him on the bench tonight? Has he started on the bench at all this year?

Our big advantage tonight was our 3 tall forwards and we never had them down there together until the game was dusted.

We ****ed up with team selection and tactics tonight.

[GVGjr]

I heard something on the raid saying that the Hawks only had a handful of first round draft picks in the side tonight whereas we had 7 and then it mentioned the Hawks success at later selection, trades and development.
We are probably not going to make a lot of changes this trader period and draft but we need to make whatever picks we have count.

[Sedat]

The midfield stunk tonight.

Treloar was lame, Libba looked really old, Bont was poor and English his typical self against a strong opponent.

Combative rucks and quick midfields are our kryptonite.
That was the ball game. Meek completely monstered English and their mids smashed ours head to head, which resulted in huge territory and possession dominance.

Speek kills and we don't have enough of it. Also we need more than Bailey Dale to be an elite ball user - Hawthorn have a dozen elite kicks.

[JanLorMill]

So why say it. A throw away line that is unnecessary
I replied to another throw away line but my was closer to the truth so it hurt you more.

[jeemak]

Breust was the sub.

I said to my mate after that mark that he'd kick the goal. It was in the script.

Thanks. Not sure who it was, but it was on the Shane Warne flank their end in the first five or ten minutes and it was unbelievable.

[JanLorMill]

I wouldn?t have played Gallagher but if you think that cost us the game you?re in denial. The other two have done their job consistently when we have supply, we had 23 entires early in the last.
I didn?t blame Gallagher individually, one of many. I listed a few already. Plenty a coach has a say in.

[Eastdog]

Back home now.

It just was not our night and the Hawks wanted it more.

I thought we did alright in the first quarter but after that not good. The 2nd quarter was one of our bad ones we have had this year and the 3rd quarter as well.

We just could not move the ball at all with any potency and their intercept game was superior as AP said and from the AFL app we had 36 of 49 defensive 50 chains being intercepted by them for a return of 7.5.47. Just a crazy stat!

Annoyed we did not do anything to negate Sicily influence on the game.

Our mids had a poor night by their standards Bont in particular was off tonight.

Lobb and McNeil were good. Naughton and Darcy battled hard. Freijah will be better for the experience. Fantastic first season.

All in all dissapointing.

[Bullies]

Also didn't help that the delivery of the ball to him was not very good.He still doesn't work hard enough when things don't go his way. He appears disinterested.

[JanLorMill]

The Geelong football club for one. Had many shocking final exits over the years, but just keep showing up. Year after year.
I can?t remember many they were well beaten in an elimination.

[angelopetraglia]

13-22 free kicks. Another stat we were smashed in.

[angelopetraglia]

I can?t remember many they were well beaten in an elimination.

Not the elimination, but they have been badly beaten in final exits.

Smashed in the first quarter against Sydney in 2016. Destroyed by Melbourne in 2021. Annihilated by the Pies in 2010. Smashed by 10 goals by the Crows in 2017. They have had some really poor finals exits.

What I'm saying is that they had some bad losses in finals, but have come back the next season. It has not defined them.

We need to reload and keep showing up.

[Eastdog]

13-22 free kicks. Another stat we were smashed in.

Yep it felt liked they wanted them win.

[Grantysghost]

I feel like we have a bunch of old guys and a bunch of young guys and no middle agers.

Not getting too upset about that. Hawks are hot, playing as a team and with real smarts. They certainly use the width of the G to perfection with their foot skills.

I'm not sold they're going to be amazing just yet, but they certainly are all in at the moment.
Newcombe was a mid season draft pick wasn't he? He's a gun.

Fair play to them, exciting to watch and theyll probably knock off port.

If they make it they'll win it.

[Bullies]

It looked so much worse being at the ground when you could see the space the Hawks had and their movement on our turnovers. We just had no answers. How well do they play the ground and their kicking skills are elite.

We need speed on the ball and through the middle. We just can't persist with what we have in the middle and on the wings. How good would a small crumbing forward be who knows how to kick a goal.

Need to do a bit of tweaking with the list and a few trades to get players we need.

[kruder]

We were bloody poor tonight, the body language going into half time and into the third quarter was that of a defeated side it was bizarre. We had that dreaded game where our mids didn't turn up and we got stuck off half back again, just didn't have any composure at all to swing the momentum.

I sat in the forward pocket of the ponsford stand level one and clearly our hardest working player was Lachie McNeil. His work rate was phenomenal he busted his gut to keep that ball in the front half he just didn't have many mates while Lobby again showed he is a natural in defence.

I was really confident going in, I thought we were past this kind of performance but yeah there is a lot of food for thought after a performance like this on the big stage.

Thanks for the year woofers really appreciate all the contributions it has been an enjoyable ride.

[Grantysghost]

They lost some finals badly when they went in favourites.

Smashed in the first quarter against Sydney in 2016. Destroyed by Melbourne in 2021. Annihilated by the Pies in 2010. Smashed by 10 goals by the Crows in 2017. They have had some really poor finals exits.

What I?m saying is that they had some bad losses in finals, but have come back the next season. It has not defined them.

We need to reload and keep showing up.
That's how it should be.

We look at this as a stepping stone for the next gen.
You have to keep fronting up and giving yourself a shot.
Dissapointing night however there was a lot to like this season.

Pressing needs are a revamp of the mids with an injection of pace.

Small forward is a must.

Pace on the wings.

[angelopetraglia]

It looked so much worse being at the ground when you could see the space the Hawks had and their movement on our turnovers. We just had no answers. How well do they play the ground and their kicking skills are elite.

We need speed on the ball and through the middle. We just can't persist with what we have in the middle and on the wings. How good would a small crumbing forward be who knows how to kick a goal.

Need to do a bit of tweaking with the list and a few trades to get players we need.

They used the width of the MCG to perfection. They keep a few players really wide, if you don't respect them, they use them. If you man them up, they then look to go through the middle. They open the ground up by how they set up offensively.

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo

We have been a good contested team all year, but we were beaten at the coalface. I'm not sure if we were bad or they were good. Maybe a little of both.

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo saying that they spead so wide when they had the ball, they were stretching us, that we had to take a number away from stoppage. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[SonofScray]

Saw the signs of an off night about 20 minutes into the first quarter. Knew we were done about 10 into the 2nd.

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo

With 7-8 minutes to go in the last quarter we only had 35 forward entries. We picked a night against a really good side to not be able to see it through after quarter time.

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo

We could not get any consistent territory. We could not get any forward half stoppages. We could not get any front half turnovers. All things that we have been good at over the year.

[Sedat]

They used the width of the MCG to perfection. They keep a few players really wide, if you don't respect them, they use them. If you man them up, they then look to go through the middle. They open the ground up by how they set up offensively.
They have elite ball users on every line, speed on every line, and they apply fierce pressure all over the ground. If you don't match their pressure, you will get eaten up, as we unfortunately found out in Q2 and especially Q3 tonight.

A very sobering evening. We've for some work to do in the off-season.

[JanLorMill]

Not the elimination, but they have been badly beaten in final exits.

Smashed in the first quarter against Sydney in 2016. Destroyed by Melbourne in 2021. Annihilated by the Pies in 2010. Smashed by 10 goals by the Crows in 2017. They have had some really poor finals exits.

What I'm saying is that they had some bad losses in finals, but have come back the next season. It has not defined them.

We need to reload and keep showing up.
Not great examples. Many of the opposition were premiers or grand finalists. They even won the next premiership in 2 of those years. We back it up with 9th spot or another elimination loss.

[Grantysghost]

What was the plan for Sicily tonight? He was a huge reason they won.

He pretty much did what he wanted.

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo

A finals loss. It is our fifth elimination loss in our 10 years. It is a lot of hard work to get there. We knew how hard finals games are to win and some boys had not played a final, but they know how hard they are now.

[JanLorMill]

Hawks will be beaten next week

[angelopetraglia]

Bevo

No one thought going into this game that we would be strong armed, but Hawthorn strong armed us.

[Grantysghost]

73 points off turnover according to afl.com for the Hawks.

Thats insane.

[SonofScray]

73 points off turnover according to afl.com for the Hawks.

Thats insane.

Sounds like last time they beat us.

[Scorlibo]

So hard to watch that tonight. Shades of the 2021 GF in the sense that once the opposition started to roll, the outcome felt inevitable, such was the ease with which they found space, hit targets and moved the ball. Hawthorn kept the ball in constant motion, and always seemed to know which option to take next. Well drilled, working for each other. Our only chance was to dominate contested ball, and we got pantsed in that area.

The elephant in the room? Our much loved skipper. Have we seen a worse game from Marcus? On such a big occasion, we needed him badly and he was MIA.

[SonofScray]

So hard to watch that tonight. Shades of the 2021 GF in the sense that once the opposition started to roll, the outcome felt inevitable, such was the ease with which they found space, hit targets and moved the ball. Hawthorn kept the ball in constant motion, and always seemed to know which option to take next. Well drilled, working for each other. Our only chance was to dominate contested ball, and we got pantsed in that area.

The elephant in the room? Our much loved skipper. Have we seen a worse game from Marcus? On such a big occasion, we needed him badly and he was MIA.

Stuck on the bench for a stretch in the second when things got dicey.
Half forward for a fair chunk of the 3rd.

Had a few moments, and almost lifted us off the canvas with what could have been two goals in quick succession.

Poor game though.

[Eastdog]

Contested Possessions +25 in their favour
Uncontested Possessions +60 in their favour
Turnovers +18 in our favour
Intercepts +18 in their favour

Clearances +7 in our favour
Centre Clearances +3 in our favour
Stoppage clearances +4 in our favour
Hitouts +16 in their favour

Inside 50 +20 in their favour

[angelopetraglia]

73 points off turnover according to afl.com for the Hawks.

Thats insane.

Rinse and repeat from the game we played them earlier this year. The difference was in that game we scored a heap from stoppages. Tonight we didn't dominate stoppages.

[Mantis]

Stuck on the bench for a stretch in the second when things got dicey.
Half forward for a fair chunk of the 3rd.

Had a few moments, and almost lifted us off the canvas with what could have been two goals in quick succession.

Poor game though.

Yep, he had a couple of excuses. The period he got stuck on the bench in the 2nd was excessive and pivotal. The player to rotate saw the call, but chose to follow the play to the other side of the ground than come off.

As I?ve seen in so many of our games the defensive running was so poor, and I?m lumping a lot of the blame on Treloar and Libba. Outstanding ball winners generally, but when it was time to defend and help win back the ball they don?t work hard enough.

It was painful to watch last night, and we simply aren?t going to improve against the teams that cause us issues if these 2 play important roles.

[chef]

Rinse and repeat from the game we played them earlier this year. The difference was in that game we scored a heap from stoppages. Tonight we didn't dominate stoppages.

It's like they learned something from that game and we didn't. Mitchell did a number on Bevo big time.

[Grantysghost]

To be fair he didn't have Josh Schache to play on Sicily.

How did we not have a proper plan for him. He's a 6ft 1 intercept defender I don't get why we let him Tom Stewart us.
Ripper player, good Melton boy.

[DOG GOD]

Well that certainly was not a surprising result. Hawks pretty much did as they pleased.

Watson 4 goals. No one to play on him.

Sicily, scrimshaw and D?ambrosio doing as they wish.

Meek killing English

Newcombe 30+ possessions AGAIN

Our 3 key fwds pretty much ineffective.

I pretty much predicted this. And a 33 point win to go with it (they won by 37). I guess I can hold my head high when I have to face my hawks supporting manager come Monday morning as I told him all this would be the difference in why I thought hawks would win.

[DOG GOD]

Their pace on the G was my biggest concern and boy did that show up last night. Hawks are good to watch but man they have got some players who are fast tracking into my top 10 most hated due to their arrogance.

[anfo27]

Didn't expect that last night. We just weren't up for it. That second quarter was hard to watch, the 3rd unwatchable & last didn't bother watching. We just weren't sharp at all. Its like the occasion got to us & we played like we were afraid to make a mistake. Such a big game & to deliver that was embarrassing.

Should we be that surprised though? We did the same against Port & then again against the crows. I just can't trust this group. The 15-16 team never quit & was never out of it. Not this group. Some days its just too hard for them. Not enough tough hombres in this team. You need tough hombres come September, they rise to the occasion.

[1eyedog]

Can't pressure a team if you can't catch them and when we did they just had a fast out by hand option all night. Man their hands are quick and they are excellent by foot as well. Highly skilled team.

Toyed with us. Exciting times for them.

[Scorlibo]

111-79 in contested possessions away from the stoppage.

-60 in uncontested possessions. We got cooked on the spread.

[macca]

111-79 in contested possessions away from the stoppage.

-60 in uncontested possessions. We got cooked on the spread.

Yep, that is a good indication of speed.
I was so frustrated by missed tackles last night, but they are just a quicker team. Hard to tackle someone when they run past you.

[Rocket Science]

Got sliced up so routinely they'll need a clean up crew to go through and retrieve what's left of us that's still strewn across the ground before the next final's played there.

[angelopetraglia]

Why is there a narrative that we were beaten by a bunch of kids?

Average age.

Dogs 26yr 8mth V Hawks 25yr 6mth

Games

Dogs 131 Hawks 108

So we are bascially one season more experienced than them. They are being referred to as kids. How does the media get such simple thing so wrong?

[jeemak]

111-79 in contested possessions away from the stoppage.

-60 in uncontested possessions. We got cooked on the spread.

The lack of intent to spread early/ proactively was evident looking down the wing line all game.

[kruder]

The lack of intent to spread early/ proactively was evident looking down the wing line all game.

Amazing how we couldn't control the ball at all, chain some possession, provide run from behind. It reminded me off the loss to Brisbane started fairly well early then just looked flat as a pancake, its really hard to understand from the outside.

[Happy Days]

They just knew exactly how to beat us. They knew that we didn’t have the speed to go with them once the ball left the contest area and were willing to put it into that 10m space on the outside because they’d get there first. It’s our fatal flaw and we aren’t winning shit until we address it.

[Mantis]

They just knew exactly how to beat us. They knew that we didn’t have the speed to go with them once the ball left the contest area and were willing to put it into that 10m space on the outside because they’d get there first. It’s our fatal flaw and we aren’t winning shit until we address it.

Yep, against quick midfielders like last night and Port we can?t go with them when they spread, especially when they are being spoon fed by their ruckman.

I?m all in on thanking Libba, Jack and Caleb for their amazing service and getting some fresh bodies in to the midfield mix.

[Bigdog]

Not all doom and gloom for me. Think there is a lot to work with next year and nothing went right.

My major take away is how important top 4 is. You can afford a bad night in finals if you get a second chance. We got team selection wrong and that could have been reworked for a semi.

A couple of other things:

- I hope Jamarra rewatches this game. I hope this burns inside him over a preseason. His efforts were non existent last night. His not the only one, but this needs to be the catalyst of a massive preseason.

- Probably goodbye to one of Daniel or Macrae. Neither were bad, but the game has become faster. Can?t afford to play both of them. I?d be more inclined to keep Macrae because he could help out if libba slows down.

- I agreed with the Harmes call at the time to play him. However it was wrong, he didn?t have the touch for afl level. Missed to many weeks and obviously isn?t a Bont level talent.

- We need some line breaking speed across the ground. Half back, outside mids, wings and half forward. A line breaking half back is crucial. At the moment it?s Bailey Dale or bust. Maybe a play for Houston was appropriate.

- Jones had a shocker. We probably need to look for some defensive coverage as he might be pretty limited next year at 34. I wouldn?t be breaking the bank on coverage though. Speed is a bigger priority.

- I?d like our tall forwards to be more versatile. I want one of Jamarra or Naughton to do spurts in the centre if the game isn?t going there way forward.

- My gut feel based on vfl is that Busslinger (I have been very happy with Bus? development this year) will play round 1 next year as a third tall and JOD will be transitioned to a wing. Bus was very unlucky not debut this year. The only reason he didn?t debut was our poor early season form so every game was must win.

- Not overly concerned about the ruck. Darcy just needs to spend more time in the ruck if English is getting out muscled. Darcy will be better with another preseason.

- McNeil gets a lot of heat from the fans. He had a deplorable game against Melbourne (I had his as a certainty to be delisted after round 1). Outside of that game he has been a really solid contributor. If he can fix his goal kicking he can have a successful career.

[kickit2Koly]

How stone cold holding the ball was Breust in the first quarter, early on? For that not to be paid told me pretty early it might not be our night.

Not sure the two grabber was definitely outside the line, but it looked close. When that one sailed through for goals I knew it was really bad.

Note - umpires didn't cost us the game, that's not what I'm saying.

Agree, umps didn?t cost us the game but they certainly killed our momentum early in the game. The 2 blocking free kicks to Impey and Sicily stood out to me as 2 of the worst decision of the night.

We simply got out worked for 2 and half qtrs. We also seemed to struggle with defending the wider MCG. Thanks AFL for making us play our home final on a ground we play on twice a year if we?re lucky.

[SonofScray]

They were so much harder and tougher at the contest than we were.

That really hurts. They’ve built a game on running hard, offensive, deft footy and they also were more workmanlike, and robust physically.

Sam Darcy the only one that seems to have a little bit of stuff in the basement.

[Bullies]

What was the plan for Sicily tonight? He was a huge reason they won.

He pretty much did what he wanted. Weightman was being well held so why didn't they get him to go to Sicily. At least he would have taken his opponent with him. It was dumb coaching last night.

[JanLorMill]

Yep, against quick midfielders like last night and Port we can?t go with them when they spread, especially when they are being spoon fed by their ruckman.

I?m all in on thanking Libba, Jack and Caleb for their amazing service and getting some fresh bodies in to the midfield mix.
I think oppositions can spread all they want if we win the ball. We banked on that, it was our suppose to be our strength. We never look slow when we have the ball.

[The bulldog tragician]

Questions I would love to get views on from more strategically tuned-in observers:

What was the actual plan for Sicily and why did it fail so badly?
Why did Naughton ruck at times - as early as q2?
is Gallagher playing a specific role because with possessions under double figures most weeks, it’s not really clear why he is so preferred?

[D Mitchell]

I think oppositions can spread all they want if we win the ball. We banked on that, it was our suppose to be our strength. We never look slow when we have the ball.

The trouble was that we didn't win the ball. Ah, the good old days to the McCartney mantra that players had to be able to win their own ball, the hallmark of the 2016 team. The late season practice of guarding the corridor and not getting dragged outside worked against us last night, Hawthorn worked so much harder.

[Danjul]

Yep, against quick midfielders like last night and Port we can?t go with them when they spread, especially when they are being spoon fed by their ruckman.

I?m all in on thanking Libba, Jack and Caleb for their amazing service and getting some fresh bodies in to the midfield mix.

I am missing something here. So please help me out.

Last night Daniel was equal sixth for disposals in the whole game, both teams. Libba and Treloar slightly better. He didn?t waste many.

Should we replace him with another speedster like Richards? He wasn?t as useful. Or Gallagher?

Or should we go for another McNeil? Love watching him miss goals from 30 metres dead in front. Totally lets the team and supporters down. Admittedly he had 4 tackles but so did Macrae when he came on for a quarter. And Macrae also had as many possessions as Weightman and Harmes who played the whole game.

A big part of the reason we defeated GWS was because of the contributions from Daniel and Macrae. I was there, they understand football and can get the ball to teammates in a way that most others can?t.

Last night We got destroyed in the midfield because of the ?E? factor, as expected. Happened when the teams met earlier in the season. That was compounded by the terribly inaccurate foot and hand disposals that spoon fed Hawthorn players instead of our forwards. That was why the ball didn?t get from one arc to the other. Macrae should have played the whole game in that linkup role.

On Thursday Port?s quick midfielders Proved that although speed is relevant it does not make up for an inferior game plan which is what we used. I want to see a tactician brought into the mix. That?s my number one priority.

[ledge]

I have a question about the crowd . We got 97k it was our home final so how does the remuneration work ?

[bornadog]

Yep, against quick midfielders like last night and Port we can?t go with them when they spread, especially when they are being spoon fed by their ruckman.

I?m all in on thanking Libba, Jack and Caleb for their amazing service and getting some fresh bodies in to the midfield mix.

HTA - Hawks 10, Dogs 8

[Boots]

You know, having slept on it, for all the “why did we lose” my biggest gripe is that I was’t ready for our season to be over. I liked how we were plying in that run of form against Sydney, Geelong and Carlton. I just wanted more of that. That’s overwhelmingly the source of my keen disappointment. It’s that a good game was so tantalisingly close and we blew it, again. We just don’t seem to be able to maintain form. I hate it. So dispiriting.

[Prince Imperial]

I have a question about the crowd . We got 97k it was our home final so how does the remuneration work ?

We don't get a zac.

[bornadog]

You know, having slept on it, for all the “why did we lose” my biggest gripe is that I was’t ready for our season to be over. I liked how we were plying in that run of form against Sydney, Geelong and Carlton. I just wanted more of that. That’s overwhelmingly the source of my keen disappointment. It’s that a good game was so tantalisingly close and we blew it, again. We just don’t seem to be able to maintain form. I hate it. So dispiriting.

We need to finish top 4 so we get the double chance. It is the only way.

[Sedat]

I have a question about the crowd . We got 97k it was our home final so how does the remuneration work ?
A few extra sheets in the bonuses for Dills and Kane-o

[jeemak]

You know, having slept on it, for all the “why did we lose” my biggest gripe is that I was’t ready for our season to be over. I liked how we were plying in that run of form against Sydney, Geelong and Carlton. I just wanted more of that. That’s overwhelmingly the source of my keen disappointment. It’s that a good game was so tantalisingly close and we blew it, again. We just don’t seem to be able to maintain form. I hate it. So dispiriting.

I was confident that if we showed up we'd beat them. We showed up early and got ahead, and then went dead. Stone, cold, dead.

While the season taught me there'd be lapses even when we were going well, I wasn't prepared for starting well and then going dead......until I remembered the last time we played them once it was happening again.

[Danjul]

We need to finish top 4 so we get the double chance. It is the only way.
That is unlikely if we have to play Hawthorn twice and travel to Adelaide a few times.

[Bullies]

I have a question about the crowd . We got 97k it was our home final so how does the remuneration work ? Also the other question I want to know is how did so many of our memebers miss out on tickets yet Hawthorn members out numbered us. Should we have not got more tickets being our home game or at least equal? I am not including AFL and MCG members.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Also the other question I want to know is how did so many of our memebers miss out on tickets yet Hawthorn members out numbered us. Should we have not got more tickets being our home game or at least equal? I am not including AFL and MCG members.

The barcode issue a lot of our members had did not affect Hawthorn members. It would seem it was our club who made the error but I'm not sure on this.

[mighty_west]

Just totally outclassed and outplayed by a team who has owned us the past few games, and it was as though we did nothing to change things, was there a hard tag on Newcomb when he has a history of cutting us up? Did we play our tall forwards to try and stretch their defence and make Sicilly play accountable? Why did Bont only play 70 odd% in the 2nd and 3rd, and play a lot of that up forward? Why didn't Weightman play more mid time when he wasn't getting a kick? Did Naughton play time in the ruck to gain an advantage where's our AA ruckman couldn't against a journeyman?

Would have liked to see Darcy play more ruck time and English deep forward, try and get an advantage when things weren't working out, still have no idea why West didn't play, again dangerous small forward but can also pitch hit in the centre, yeah love the preasure VDM and McNeil provide but the skills just let them down, let's the team down, Jamarra was barely sighted but he could still work hard and play team footy, it wasn't his night so he has to work harder to help his team mates out, Duryea, love ya Doc but geez, shithouse night for an experienced player, some of those kicks were dreadful, absolute coach killers.

Going to be an interesting trade period for us, over the past few months we have played extremely well, we have to hang our hat on that but also tinker with the list and see what was missing on Friday night, speed and skills, but also mentally tough players who will dig in, there have to be a few stage leagers like a Newcomb who are hard and tough and would want to break through walls, because unfortunately we don't have enough of those types

[bulldogtragic]

We need to finish top 4 so we get the double chance. It is the only way.

Never happened under Bevo… hard to think it’s going to start happening.

[mighty_west]

HTA - Hawks 10, Dogs 8

It should be reading the other way in fact, English should be dominating a journeyman ruckman, i understand Meek has been in good form but a 27 year old ruckman should be in his prime right now, his experience especially with the midfield group, his large 5 year contract, he has to do better especially in the big games and doing it consistently, i understand what he does around the ground is good but we have Naughton, Lobb, Darcy who could run around and do the same job.

[Sedat]

Did Naughton play time in the ruck to gain an advantage where's our AA ruckman couldn't against a journeyman?
Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

[DOG GOD]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.
And that 5 year investment will probably cost us finals.

[mighty_west]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

100% He's actually 1 year younger than Timmy and also should be in his prime, couldn't get a game at Freo hence the move to the Hawks, he's actually had an outstanding season and a big reason like you said on the Hawks rapid rise, that said Tim still should dominate him, especially if you only compare contract sizes and the fact he's been working closely with our mids for years, Meek hasn't, and pound for pound it you stood both next to each other right now, reckon most people pick Meek, he just has that ruck craft for finals footy which is what you want, Timmy on the other hand........

[Grantysghost]

It should be reading the other way in fact, English should be dominating a journeyman ruckman, i understand Meek has been in good form but a 27 year old ruckman should be in his prime right now, his experience especially with the midfield group, his large 5 year contract, he has to do better especially in the big games and doing it consistently, i understand what he does around the ground is good but we have Naughton, Lobb, Darcy who could run around and do the same job.

Darcy will be #1 ruck soon and Tim will be forward/ruck. Darcy has that fire and competitiveness that can't be taught.

[merantau]

We simply cannot progress if we rely on Tim to spend 70% of his game time as our No.1 ruck. Time to flip the switch. Darcy No. 1. Tim plays forward, or back as needed. He is mostly good when he plays back and has shown that he can kick a goal. Why persist using him in a role that he has failed to live up to for a large part of his career?

[bulldogtragic]

We’ve got a 210cm elite KPF that the rules favour (arm chopping) and we want to not play him as a KPF because our ruck has no presence?

Get another ruck and let Tim fight for first ruck and let Darcy terrorise opposition defences. The kid can kick huge bags and we want hit outs and presence. Nah. Not for me. Leave him forward and recruit another first ruck with the best one in form to be selected. I think Tim knows only too well he’s playing g each week no matter how out of form he is. Time to make him fight for it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

Some have mentioned Darcy will overtake him soon, but Darcy could be the best forward in the game who can pinch hit (as he is now). Why would we change that!?

I'd rather Sweet and his contract than English...

Anyway, we're stuck with him now.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We’ve got a 210cm elite KPF that the rules favour (arm chopping) and we want to not play him as a KPF because our ruck has no presence?

Get another ruck and let Tim fight for first ruck and let Darcy terrorise opposition defences. The kid can kick huge bags and we want hit outs and presence. Nah. Not for me. Leave him forward and recruit another first ruck with the best one in form to be selected. I think Tim knows only too well he’s playing g each week no matter how out of form he is. Time to make him fight for it.

This. Madness to move Darcy.

[Grantysghost]

We will not recruit another ruck so we have to think how we utilise what we've got I think.

I would rather Darcy forward however I don't think we lose that much with English there.

I think it's his best spot (English).

[bornadog]

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

Some have mentioned Darcy will overtake him soon, but Darcy could be the best forward in the game who can pinch hit (as he is now). Why would we change that!?

I'd rather Sweet and his contract than English...

Anyway, we're stuck with him now.
Grundy is on $1 million

[Sedat]

Grundy is on $1 million
Sydney is not paying him anywhere near the full amount. It's like saying Treloar is on a million a year when we are only paying him 600k

At what point will you become concerned that English is consistently dominated in big games, especially finals. His direct opponent has had a massive impact on the end result in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF, 2022 EF and now the 2024 EF. He was so poor as no 1 ruck in late 2021 that we preferred Lewis Young in the role for the first 2 finals. I can't recall any final out of the 7 we've played since 2019 that he has contributed positively in, except maybe the 2021 PF where Stef Martin was no 1 ruck.

Tim is not capable of being 'the man' for us. He hasn't thus far and he most likely won't in the future - he is to date a proven finals flop. We've invested so heavily into English as no 1 ruck since 2019 and the sunk cost is only getting bigger with absolutely zero finals/big game return on this massive investment.

It is maddening to think we've given him 5 more years based on the above repeated failure to perform in big games as no 1 ruck. It would be even more maddening if we back him in as our no 1 ruck without any competitive tension.

After Friday night, I'm completely done with the flawed concept of English the no 1 ruckman. Hopefully so is Bevo as well - it looked like he was fed up, to the extent of giving Naughton the keys in the 3rd qtr.

[JanLorMill]

Darcy will be #1 ruck soon and Tim will be forward/ruck. Darcy has that fire and competitiveness that can't be taught.
No proof Tim as forward will work and no proof 3 tall forwards works in high pressure finals.

[JanLorMill]

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

When I said as much a few months ago I was blasted.

[Sedat]

No proof Tim as forward will work and no proof 3 tall forwards works in high pressure finals.
First 6 weeks of 2021 English forward/2nd ruck was effective with Stef Martin as our no 1 ruck. We haven't really seen it since.

[JanLorMill]

First 6 weeks of 2021 English forward/2nd ruck was effective with Stef Martin as our no 1 ruck. We haven't really seen it since.
I don’t see it. His set shots are very hit or miss too. JUH like.

[Grantysghost]

I don’t see it. His set shots are very hit or miss too. JUH like.
Hard disagree, he's a very reliable set shot.

[Mofra]

First 6 weeks of 2021 English forward/2nd ruck was effective with Stef Martin as our no 1 ruck. We haven't really seen it since.
Yep - English is far better as the no 2 ruck.
As a no 1 ruck he's great for a few weeks then has a poor week that costs us the game. That was the case against the hawks - Meek killed him.

[macca]

Yep - English is far better as the no 2 ruck.
As a no 1 ruck he's great for a few weeks then has a poor week that costs us the game. That was the case against the hawks - Meek killed him.

I would be interested to know the level competition at Hawks with Meeks Vs Reeves and the internal KPIs . I don't know much about their strengths or weakness, but Meek overpowered English on Friday. What annoyed me most was the 2nd quarter, where Meek took a grab in their forward line. English was nowhere in the frame.

Their coach must rate Rucks differently to Bevo.

I still reckon there is a place for bash and crash ruckman with Good hands to mark,

[Grantysghost]

Coaches Votes

Western Bulldogs v Hawthorn10 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
6 James Sicily (HAW)
4 Karl Amon (HAW)
4 Lloyd Meek (HAW)
3 Calsher Dear (HAW)
2 Massimo D'Ambrosio (HAW)
1 Connor MacDonald (HAW)

[Grantysghost]

Mid, Intercept defender, half back, ruck, tall forward, winger, mid forward.

[Stevo]

Just listening to Kane who gave Marra a fair whack for his lack of effort and focus.
I know he's young but it's a frustrating thing watching him missing marks and then later hugging players.

[josie]

Coaches Votes

Western Bulldogs v Hawthorn10 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
6 James Sicily (HAW)
4 Karl Amon (HAW)
4 Lloyd Meek (HAW)
3 Calsher Dear (HAW)
2 Massimo D'Ambrosio (HAW)
1 Connor MacDonald (HAW)

I agree none of our players deserved votes. That’s a real indictment- not 1 vote to us.

[Grantysghost]

I agree none of our players deserved votes. That’s a real indictment- not 1 vote to us.
And they had players on every line getting in the best.