While others zig, should we zag?

[Go_Dogs]

So every year some clubs have success based on tweaks to game plan, how they transition the footy or the structures / types of players they put in key roles. Then clubs try to copy their blueprint and do it better the following year, sometimes with success and sometimes without.

Geelong seem to find a way to slightly reinvent themselves each year and remain competitive.

So?. While everyone is zigging this year, should we be zagging? What could our points of difference be with the cattle and coaching staff we have? How could we make that work and catch other teams sleeping or throw their list strategy and recruitment out?

[Bulldog Joe]

So every year some clubs have success based on tweaks to game plan, how they transition the footy or the structures / types of players they put in key roles. Then clubs try to copy their blueprint and do it better the following year, sometimes with success and sometimes without.

Geelong seem to find a way to slightly reinvent themselves each year and remain competitive.

So?. While everyone is zigging this year, should we be zagging? What could our points of difference be with the cattle and coaching staff we have? How could we make that work and catch other teams sleeping or throw their list strategy and recruitment out?

I have always felt that a team should develop a game plan that maximises the strengths that they have on their list.

It is futile to just copy someone else.

We need a game that suits our strength in contested marking and we need to demand our talls be active in creating options for ball carriers.

[comrade]

I think we did that to an extent this year.

We did that stripping thing at stoppage because English gets beaten every week, so oppo mids get first hands on it but we were able to dispossess and win the clearance more often than not. It fell apart in the EF because Tim was even worse than usual and our mids also had a horrible night.

I?m not sure what the game plan tweaks will be for next year but it 100% should revolve around Sam Darcy.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Find a cheap bash and crash ruck to challenge English.

Let it start from there.

[bornadog]

I think we did that to an extent this year.

We did that stripping thing at stoppage because English gets beaten every week, so oppo mids get first hands on it but we were able to dispossess and win the clearance more often than not. It fell apart in the EF because Tim was even worse than usual and our mids also had a horrible night.

I?m not sure what the game plan tweaks will be for next year but it 100% should revolve around Sam Darcy.

We lost the final because Hawks small forwards locked the ball in their half and we could only get the ball into our F50 39 times. Our average for the year was 57.

[westbulldog]

Find a cheap bash and crash ruck to challenge English.

Let it start from there.

We had one who just got some coaches votes in a high pressure final, but the naysayers and cynics on here continually derided him.

[bulldogtragic]

Find a cheap bash and crash ruck to challenge English.

Let it start from there.

We had one who just got some coaches votes in a high pressure final, but the naysayers and cynics on here continually derided him.

The Match Committee didn’t select him so he left. I think the MC/Coach had a bigger role than whoever the nay sayers were on here.

[Sedat]

We lost the final because Hawks small forwards locked the ball in their half and we could only get the ball into our F50 39 times. Our average for the year was 57.
How did it get into Hawthorn's forward line in the first place? I suspect Meek had absolutely nothing to do with this - I know he was given coaches votes against the Dogs but what would they know.

[bornadog]

How did it get into Hawthorn's forward line in the first place? I suspect Meek had absolutely nothing to do with this - I know he was given coaches votes against the Dogs but what would they know.

Meek played a great game around the ground with 23 disposals.

How did it get there: Hawks played a keepings off game that took the ball from the backline to the forward line. We should have reacted to this by going one on one.

[azabob]

Cool, another thread about ruckman.

[comrade]

Cool, another thread about ruckman.

It all comes back to Timmy.

[Sedat]

Cool, another thread about ruckman.
Guilty as charged. I started the first discussion on him back in 2019, under the premise of "shooting Bambi" for questioning the long-term viability of English as a no 1 ruckman despite being so young at the time - to me he just lacked that killer competitive instinct at the time (and obviously he still does). The fact that it is still a hot topic of discussion more than 5 years later doesn't please me at all - I would have loved to be completely wrong on him, because it would have likely meant we win a premiership in the last few years.

The James Harmes bandwagon fan club meetings are currently being held in a phone booth, and I'm not expecting any new recruits in the off-season either. I've gotten him wrong so far after year 1, and it would be foolish to double-down and not make that obvious concession. English as no 1 ruck has his fans here, and it is up to them whether or not they want to concede he has been failure to date in this role, or believe he is suddenly going to morph into the next incarnation of Simon Madden in his 9th years in the system.

Like all of us on here I just want us to get better, and we finished 7th in 2024 so we need to - some of that will be incremental improvement from within and some will be external from trading/drafting. What I don't want to see is us continue to repeat the same errors that consistently make us fall short in the big games, and the no 1 ruck situation is one obvious area that needs to improve substantially in order to compete with the big boys.

Back on topic - the coaching and fitness/conditioning changes we made 12 months ago clearly improved our game style for longer. Bevo adapted and adjusted his methods as he absolutely needed to. We have defensive stability and aren't anywhere as assertive so aren't getting torched out the back anywhere near as much in 2022/23 (until the EF of course). We started to get higher scores from turnover and didn't solely rely on stoppage/territory dominance. Just maybe, we were collectively crap in the EF (especially our top 6 or so) and had an absolute mare, but as Rocco mentioned we are still prone to having too many of these really poor games in season. I'm not sure what tactics/personnel we need to refine to get better for longer, but the no 1 ruck situation is one and we clearly need to get leg speed across all areas so we have a better ability to cover the ground. VDM and McNeill aren't being gifted games - they are covering ridiculous amounts of territory and helping defend the ground significantly when we don't have the ball, an area that was horrendous for us in 2022/23.

[ReLoad]

How can a forward line of Jamara, Naughton and Darcy not completely dominate?

It all comes down to the middle of the ground, of which Tim is a part of that, but not all of it.

Our wheel of re-invention should be to continue to develop the path we are on, it started this year and still needs work, lets not throw it out because we lost a final against a side that seriously took some beating.

[hujsh]

Cool, another thread about ruckman.

That was the intention right? They zig with ruckmen like Meek and Sweet while we zag by finding a ruckman like Sweet or Meek to beat English into being the same as them.

[Mantis]

How can a forward line of Jamara, Naughton and Darcy not completely dominate?

Because as a group they're inconsistent (experience has a fair bit of a role here), don't convert their chances and get in each other's way.

We are going to have to go all-in on these 3 being our POD... other teams are going to be running with small/mobile forward lines like Coll & Haw go with, but we are going to have to rely on our talls being our match-winners.


It all comes down to the middle of the ground, of which Tim is a part of that, but not all of it.

Timid is a big part of our failures in the middle, but the rest of our midfield group play on their terms too. It all looks amazing when our mids dominate, but we look pedestrian when challenged. The midfield group is being refreshed, but potentially not with the right types or quick enough.


Our wheel of re-invention should be to continue to develop the path we are on, it started this year and still needs work, lets not throw it out because we lost a final against a side that seriously took some beating.

We made some good strides in the back half of the year, but if you look forensically was our form actually that good? We beat the top 3 teams at the time in consecutive weeks, but we got them all at good times, and when we came up against other decent/ good teams we were found wanting.

[westbulldog]

The Match Committee didn’t select him so he left. I think the MC/Coach had a bigger role than whoever the nay sayers were on here

Agreed the selection committee made him the all time emergency for what, 2 years. No wonder he was disillusioned and left. My other point however is the comments of absolute derision made on here which have, to a degree, proven unjustified and devoid of any admission of even slight error.

[bornadog]

I have always felt that a team should develop a game plan that maximises the strengths that they have on their list.

It is futile to just copy someone else.

We need a game that suits our strength in contested marking and we need to demand our talls be active in creating options for ball carriers.


Totally agree BJ. When Rocket came to the club he noted we didn't have the big FF, but we had alot of pacey players so he changed the game plan to move the ball quickly and get the ball to the small forwards. Results were pretty good, and I recal the Brisbane match in 2005 when we suddenly clicked and we were running in waves.

Our three prong attack kicked 116 goals this year - JUH 43, Darcy 38 and Naughton 35, so I feel tweaking needs to be more up the ground with wingers and half back flanks and the mix of the mids where we need another Richards ie pace..

[Uninformed]

Totally agree BJ. When Rocket came to the club he noted we didn't have the big FF, but we had alot of pacey players so he changed the game plan to move the ball quickly and get the ball to the small forwards. Results were pretty good, and I recal the Brisbane match in 2005 when we suddenly clicked and we were running in waves.

Our three prong attack kicked 116 goals this year - JUH 43, Darcy 38 and Naughton 35, so I feel tweaking needs to be more up the ground with wingers and half back flanks and the mix of the mids where we need another Richards ie pace..

Yep. We gotta get it into them.

Our good games we had 60 to 40 inside 50s our way. Against Port and Hawthorn it was that the other way.

Still not sure why that happened. Any ideas?

[bornadog]

Yep. We gotta get it into them.

Our good games we had 60 to 40 inside 50s our way. Against Port and Hawthorn it was that the other way.

Still not sure why that happened. Any ideas?

Didn't you know it is all Tim's fault:rolleyes:

[Go_Dogs]

How can a forward line of Jamara, Naughton and Darcy not completely dominate?

It all comes down to the middle of the ground, of which Tim is a part of that, but not all of it.

Our wheel of re-invention should be to continue to develop the path we are on, it started this year and still needs work, lets not throw it out because we lost a final against a side that seriously took some beating.

Yep? this is where my thinking was heading. In theory, we have a forward line that not many teams can go with ? taller players don?t get smaller and all of that.

I also think we?ve got some serious intercept capability in the back half, I get a lot of teams do this well, but with Lobb and Buku, we have some options.

Our wings is also an area we could see some improvement. JOD on paper is quite different to a lot of wing players in the AFL with his height and ability in the air potentially at both ends.

Maybe our fitness is another one? We showed improvement here in 2024.

Is there a game plan or ball movement thing we can do? With our forward line height it gives us an advantage in 6:6:6 maybe? Can we exploit that?

I?ve got no answers but I think we?ve got some stuff we could do that?s a bit different to what others are or will seek to do. I?d love to see us embrace it.

[DOG GOD]

How can a forward line of Jamara, Naughton and Darcy not completely dominate?

It all comes down to the middle of the ground, of which Tim is a part of that, but not all of it.

Our wheel of re-invention should be to continue to develop the path we are on, it started this year and still needs work, lets not throw it out because we lost a final against a side that seriously took some beating.

It is also the case that those 3 together in the fwd line have no nous or leading patterns when it comes to each other. Look at McKay/curnow?.hawkins/cameron?.VERY RARELY are they both flying for the same ball. They know how to lead, and where to lead, to create space, and these leading patterns not only help each other, but also brings players like Owies etc into the frame.

Our amount of inside 50?s compared to the % of score we actually get from them, show how dysfunctional our fwd line can be. What also annoys me (and hinders shots on goal) is when I see Jamarra or Naughton leading to the wrong sided pocket, pretty much dropping their goal chances below 30%.

Also, for those 3 fwds in the 50, we don?t take anywhere near the amount of contested marks we should. I tear my hair out when I see Stewart, Sicily, Lever, Aalir etc take contested defensive marks against these guys, with sometimes two of our key fwds in the marking pack.

This needs to massively improve.

[macca]

Totally agree BJ. When Rocket came to the club he noted we didn't have the big FF, but we had alot of pacey players so he changed the game plan to move the ball quickly and get the ball to the small forwards. Results were pretty good, and I recal the Brisbane match in 2005 when we suddenly clicked and we were running in waves.

Our three prong attack kicked 116 goals this year - JUH 43, Darcy 38 and Naughton 35, so I feel tweaking needs to be more up the ground with wingers and half back flanks and the mix of the mids where we need another Richards ie pace..

When the fast accurate kicking into the forward worked it was a awesome to watch.

Coupled with great goals from the backmen and wing in Gilbee, Rohan smith and Eagleton, really enjoyed the fast goal kicking games.

[bornadog]

It is also the case that those 3 together in the fwd line have no nous or leading patterns when it comes to each other. Look at McKay/curnow?.hawkins/cameron?.VERY RARELY are they both flying for the same ball. They know how to lead, and where to lead, to create space, and these leading patterns not only help each other, but also brings players like Owies etc into the frame.

Our amount of inside 50?s compared to the % of score we actually get from them, show how dysfunctional our fwd line can be. What also annoys me (and hinders shots on goal) is when I see Jamarra or Naughton leading to the wrong sided pocket, pretty much dropping their goal chances below 30%.

Also, for those 3 fwds in the 50, we don?t take anywhere near the amount of contested marks we should. I tear my hair out when I see Stewart, Sicily, Lever, Aalir etc take contested defensive marks against these guys, with sometimes two of our key fwds in the marking pack.

This needs to massively improve.

I don't agree at all. We were the second highest scoring team for the H&A rounds. Our three forwards kicked 116 goals, Weightman and West 50.

Our game plan is to lock the ball inside 50 and it gets crowded and hard to score even more than we have.

Our issue is when we play some good teams like the Brisbane, Port games (and Hawks final) where we couldn't get the ball inside 50. We need a solution to counter this, especially from the backline going forward, when teams stop our movement forward.

[FrediKanoute]

Totally agree BJ. When Rocket came to the club he noted we didn't have the big FF, but we had alot of pacey players so he changed the game plan to move the ball quickly and get the ball to the small forwards. Results were pretty good, and I recal the Brisbane match in 2005 when we suddenly clicked and we were running in waves.


I was at that game. Oh what a delight! We cleared out a whole bay of Brisbane Supporters by the end!

[bornadog]

I was at that game. Oh what a delight! We cleared out a whole bay of Brisbane Supporters by the end!

Was a great game. Suddenly it all clicked and supporters couldn't believe what they were seeing.

[DOG GOD]

I don't agree at all. We were the second highest scoring team for the H&A rounds. Our three forwards kicked 116 goals, Weightman and West 50.

Our game plan is to lock the ball inside 50 and it gets crowded and hard to score even more than we have.

Our issue is when we play some good teams like the Brisbane, Port games (and Hawks final) where we couldn't get the ball inside 50. We need a solution to counter this, especially from the backline going forward, when teams stop our movement forward.

And that’s cool….if our fwd line was better, we would be the best scoring team in the AFL

And how often do we lock it in and generate scores from that.
Doesn’t it frustrate you to see our left footers leading to the wrong pocket ? It happens more than not…or when our 2-3 KPF are all flying for the mark, with on occasion, Weightman as well. We need a Fwd coach is knows how to lead, where to lead. Our fwds May lack space but they certainly don’t work together to generate space…just my opinion ofcourse.

[Uninformed]

I don't agree at all. We were the second highest scoring team for the H&A rounds. Our three forwards kicked 116 goals, Weightman and West 50.

Our game plan is to lock the ball inside 50 and it gets crowded and hard to score even more than we have.

Our issue is when we play some good teams like the Brisbane, Port games (and Hawks final) where we couldn't get the ball inside 50. We need a solution to counter this, especially from the backline going forward, when teams stop our movement forward.

And the point you made earlier about the Hawthorn smalls stopping us get it out of their forward line and then chipping it around to keep possession.

But what is the solution to us not getting it in there against some teams when we dominate that stat. against other teams with good midfields. Are the midfields of Port, Crows, Lions and Hawks just better than ours? (I assume you were joking when you said it was Tim's fault.)

[The Underdog]

The Match Committee didn’t select him so he left. I think the MC/Coach had a bigger role than whoever the nay sayers were on here

Agreed the selection committee made him the all time emergency for what, 2 years. No wonder he was disillusioned and left. My other point however is the comments of absolute derision made on here which have, to a degree, proven unjustified and devoid of any admission of even slight error.

Jordon (yes Jordon) Sweet has one good game in a final and we’re all ****s. Good times.

[bornadog]

And the point you made earlier about the Hawthorn smalls stopping us get it out of their forward line and then chipping it around to keep possession.

But what is the solution to us not getting it in there against some teams when we dominate that stat. against other teams with good midfields. Are the midfields of Port, Crows, Lions and Hawks just better than ours? (I assume you were joking when you said it was Tim's fault.)

I wish I could answer you on why against those teams we didn't play well. Crows game was different, we had the ball in the forward line 59 times to Crows 43 but we just couldn't finish off and kick goals.

[Uninformed]

I wish I could answer you on why against those teams we didn't play well. Crows game was different, we had the ball in the forward line 59 times to Crows 43 but we just couldn't finish off and kick goals.

Sorry. I read it as the other way around. Didn't seem right with the Crows.

The only thing I can think of is some sort of system issue. We looked so good against the midfields of Swans, Geelong and Carlton. But then Port and Hawthorn hammer us and the Lions had us covered.

Taking Port. I don't see Rozee, Butters, JHF, and Wines as 60 to 40 better than Bont. Libba, Adz. and Ed. So it must be system?

[Mofra]

Sorry. I read it as the other way around. Didn't seem right with the Crows.

The only thing I can think of is some sort of system issue. We looked so good against the midfields of Swans, Geelong and Carlton. But then Port and Hawthorn hammer us and the Lions had us covered.

Taking Port. I don't see Rozee, Butters, JHF, and Wines as 60 to 40 better than Bont. Libba, Adz. and Ed. So it must be system?
Aren't Adelaide Oval and MCG similar dimensions?
I do wonder if we got a little "lost in the wings" as opposed to the narrower Marvel.

[Axe Man]

Aren't Adelaide Oval and MCG similar dimensions?
I do wonder if we got a little "lost in the wings" as opposed to the narrower Marvel.

No, Adelaide Oval is long and narrow. Closer to Marvel than the MCG.

[jeemak]

Our best football this year was pretty similar to our best football in 2021. Solid team defence, quick decisions and run to take it forward, lots of opportunities to score if we locked it in, all on the back of huge efforts from the midfield. The template doesn't need to change too much, we just need to again tighten up the lapses like we did with quelling run-ons against us this year. Training and discipline should help us do that.

We need to shore up our small to medium personnel in defence, I feel taking Richards out of there robbed Peter to pay Paul a little. Perhaps JF can run at the opposition a little more after another preseason. Too much was left to Dale in that area, Bramble had a great start in our colours and hopefully can take another step.

I really don't know what improvement we can get out of our wings and high forwards outside of coaching development. Getting fit enough to stay relevant in games would be a start, but not sure the polish is there which is what makes or breaks the effectiveness of the forward half.

Naughton needs to play high, JUH and Darcy who are both still well and truly in the development phase (providing we don't compare them to the likes of Buddy Franklin etc.) need big preseasons so they can take another step towards reliability. Weightman needs to find a way to be more involved more often. Continuity across the board in this area will be huge for us, I feel with Naughton and Weightman having stints out we missed that a bit and can improve.

While the likely midfield losses won't impact our performance in lieu of personnel being absent or fading, our midfield is still a bit of a mess. Sanders really needs to step up and I'm confident he can after an up and down year where he was asked to play tough roles for us.

Our draft hand will probably be just OK for the future, but it won't help us now and we won't have much happening in the trade space. This preseason has to be all about reinforcing the good things we saw this year and coaching the shit out of everyone we have at our disposal, we can't afford to zig or zag is what I'm saying I guess.

[hujsh]

Our best football this year was pretty similar to our best football in 2021. Solid team defence, quick decisions and run to take it forward, lots of opportunities to score if we locked it in, all on the back of huge efforts from the midfield. The template doesn't need to change too much, we just need to again tighten up the lapses like we did with quelling run-ons against us this year. Training and discipline should help us do that.

We need to shore up our small to medium personnel in defence, I feel taking Richards out of there robbed Peter to pay Paul a little. Perhaps JF can run at the opposition a little more after another preseason. Too much was left to Dale in that area, Bramble had a great start in our colours and hopefully can take another step.

I really don't know what improvement we can get out of our wings and high forwards outside of coaching development. Getting fit enough to stay relevant in games would be a start, but not sure the polish is there which is what makes or breaks the effectiveness of the forward half.

Naughton needs to play high, JUH and Darcy who are both still well and truly in the development phase (providing we don't compare them to the likes of Buddy Franklin etc.) need big preseasons so they can take another step towards reliability. Weightman needs to find a way to be more involved more often. Continuity across the board in this area will be huge for us, I feel with Naughton and Weightman having stints out we missed that a bit and can improve.

While the likely midfield losses won't impact our performance in lieu of personnel being absent or fading, our midfield is still a bit of a mess. Sanders really needs to step up and I'm confident he can after an up and down year where he was asked to play tough roles for us.

Our draft hand will probably be just OK for the future, but it won't help us now and we won't have much happening in the trade space. This preseason has to be all about reinforcing the good things we saw this year and coaching the shit out of everyone we have at our disposal, we can't afford to zig or zag is what I'm saying I guess.
TLDR is 'run it straight bro?'

[Go_Dogs]

Disappointing Jee. Running it back with the same plan and hoping for personnel growth seems like the same thing Ive watched the last 8 years and I’m not that excited about it.

[bornadog]

Disappointing Jee. Running it back with the same plan and hoping for personnel growth seems like the same thing Ive watched the last 8 years and I’m not that excited about it.

I think this year we were a little different than previous years, especially since we had some new assistant coaches. We were the second highest scoring team and had the best defence. I still think we need some pace around the midfield including the wings.

I would expect getting players in for these roles is going to take time. Assuming we get a decent first rounder for Smith, we should aim to draft in a speedy mid.

[jeemak]

Disappointing Jee. Running it back with the same plan and hoping for personnel growth seems like the same thing Ive watched the last 8 years and I’m not that excited about it.

Sorry man. Wish I could offer up something more titillating.