Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

[Sedat]

After watching the first 7 rounds of season 2008, it appears as though the role of the key forward has changed, with pace and mobility now equally as important as strength and contested marking ability. Seeing as we don't have a Jonathon Brown style gorilla on our list, I think we have developed a CHF that is at least the equal of the best players in this position in recent season...the only difference is that we have two players combining the role. The Hahn/Murphy tag team duo do everything that the very best key forwards in the competition do: they split packs open, apply enormous pressure to keep the ball in the forward zone, they take contested marks (Hahn), and they also run their direct opponents ragged, taking numerous uncontested marks through speed off the mark and agility (Murphy). They are also applying scoreboard pressure on the opposition, and are not being sucked away to the wings or even half back to chase a kick (both). The reigning pemier doesn't have a superstar key forward, but they similarly possess numerous attacking weapons to be able to cove off all bases up forward.

With the warp speed of the game today, and the supreme fitness of the players making it difficult to find space up forward, is it now too difficult for one player to be able to perform all roles now required in the key forward posts?

EDIT - can the mods change the thread title to 2008 :o

[Dry Rot]

EDIT - can the mods change the thread title to 2008 :o

Done.

[LostDoggy]

After watching the first 7 rounds of season 2008, it appears as though the role of the key forward has changed, with pace and mobility now equally as important as strength and contested marking ability. Seeing as we don't have a Jonathon Brown style gorilla on our list, I think we have developed a CHF that is at least the equal of the best players in this position in recent season...the only difference is that we have two players combining the role. The Hahn/Murphy tag team duo do everything that the very best key forwards in the competition do: they split packs open, apply enormous pressure to keep the ball in the forward zone, they take contested marks (Hahn), and they also run their direct opponents ragged, taking numerous uncontested marks through speed off the mark and agility (Murphy). They are also applying scoreboard pressure on the opposition, and are not being sucked away to the wings or even half back to chase a kick (both). The reigning pemier doesn't have a superstar key forward, but they similarly possess numerous attacking weapons to be able to cove off all bases up forward.

With the warp speed of the game today, and the supreme fitness of the players making it difficult to find space up forward, is it now too difficult for one player to be able to perform all roles now required in the key forward posts?

EDIT - can the mods change the thread title to 2008 :o

Pace and mobility is overated, Stewart Lowie, TOny Lockett etc would still be gun forwards in todays competition. Big bodies and strong pack marks are worth gold.

And Cam Mooney might not be a star, but he is a good ChF. Ottens is a dominant tall forward. Even Nathan Ablett could take a good grab. SO..u are right in saying they dont have superstar key forwards, but they do have quality KEY forwards.

And the Murphy/Hahn short roaming CHF will come under pressure when we play sides like Hawthorn/Geelong and our midfielders are under more pressure delivering the ball in to the forward line. Hard to pin point passes in those circumstances

[Go_Dogs]

Yup, both have been incredibly important and our forward line is continually underrated for lack of a gun power forward.

I think you'll like the quote in my sig Sedat. :)

[Scorlibo]

I think the best four KPF would be Pavlich, Brown, Riewoldt and Franklin. Pavlich and Riewoldt have bugger all backing them up at the moment (Koschitzke and Gehrig can be damaging but not at all this year so far) but Brown and Franklin have Bradshaw and Roughead respectively, Brisbane and Hawks combo would have to be the best in the AFL imo.

Behind them though you would have to think that Bobby and Mitch are the most dangerous combination. They are so hard to match up on because of their unusual (for KPP) physical attributes and they will bring others into the game aswell as themselves. When you throw an australian captain and a brownlow medallist into the forward mix, who are also below 190cm, the tall opposition key backs become overwhelmed, out of position and exposed.

Lucas and Lloyd would be up there if they could both stay on the park for more than 3 seconds and same goes for Hall and O'Loughlin.

[GVGjr]

The player that looks like he could become a terrific CHF somewhere down the track is Travis Cloke. He has a poor season in 2008 but 2007 was full of promise. Good size, long kick, runs hard on a lead and he can hold a mark so in a couple of years it will be interesting to see how he develops.

I do believe that the role is changing but there will always be a role for a true sized CHF as long he has mobility and a solid skill base.

[Mantis]

The player that looks like he could become a terrific CHF somewhere down the track is Travis Cloke. He has a poor season in 2008 but 2007 was full of promise. Good size, long kick, runs hard on a lead and he can hold a mark so in a couple of years it will be interesting to see how he develops.


Josh Kennedy has impressed me in his couple of games with West Coast and I think he will become a pretty good CHF over the next couple of seasons.

[GVGjr]

Josh Kennedy has impressed me in his couple of games with West Coast and I think he will become a pretty good CHF over the next couple of seasons.

His agility is my question mark on him as a CHF. He might need to play in a pocket or as a FF.
He has a good size about him but good CHF's need to be able to lead laterally not just straight up the ground. Early days from Kennedy at the moment and he is one to watch.

[Sedat]

I think the best four KPF would be Pavlich, Brown, Riewoldt and Franklin. Pavlich and Riewoldt have bugger all backing them up at the moment (Koschitzke and Gehrig can be damaging but not at all this year so far) but Brown and Franklin have Bradshaw and Roughead respectively, Brisbane and Hawks combo would have to be the best in the AFL imo.

Lucas and Lloyd would be up there if they could both stay on the park for more than 3 seconds and same goes for Hall and O'Loughlin.
Most of the combinations you mentioned are more the CHF/FF combos rather than two players roaming the 50m arc. Don't get me wrong, they are all quality players, but only Hahn/Murphy play the role of quasi CHF's - we have the likes of Minson, Welsh and Johnno rotating through the FF post.

The other teams have traditional crumbers and resting midfielders alongside their CHF, but I think only we have the two-pronged CHF set-up - this is obviously out of necessity, but it is working very well and flying under the radar in AFL circles a little bit.

[Sedat]

Pace and mobility is overated, Stewart Lowie, TOny Lockett etc would still be gun forwards in todays competition. Big bodies and strong pack marks are worth gold.
They would not survive in today's game. Opposition defenders would work them over the other way until they blow up. And what does Hahn have exactly if it's not a big body and can't take a strong pack mark? He would be no more than 2-3 cms shorter than both Lockett and Loewe.

Jono Brown is an exceptional footballer, not just because he can take a contested grab but because he has such a big motor that he can work his direct opponent into the ground and also take uncontested marks on the lead. Barry Hall isn't in the same class but does the same thing. Ditto Mooney. While we are at it, substitute Ottens for Minson and you can see exactly who we are trying to emulate with our forward structure. Rocca is an exceptional pack mark but he is getting worked over the other way and blows up after 30 mins as a result.

We don't have Jon Brown, so what we are doing is the next best thing by playing two players with different skill sets on the arc. The results this season bear that out - funny that both Hahn and Murphy were rcovering from a knee and suffered soft tissue/shoulder injuries respectively in 2007 and the arse fell out of our season as a result. Even in 2006, we were flying early and then started losing regularly once Murph and Hahn went down a couple of weeks apart.

[LostDoggy]

. They would not survive in today's game. Opposition defenders would work them over the other way until they blow up. And what does Hahn have exactly if it's not a big body and can't take a strong pack mark? He would be no more than 2-3 cms shorter than both Lockett and Loewe.

Jono Brown is an exceptional footballer, not just because he can take a contested grab but because he has such a big motor that he can work his direct opponent into the ground and also take uncontested marks on the lead. Barry Hall isn't in the same class but does the same thing. Ditto Mooney. While we are at it, substitute Ottens for Minson and you can see exactly who we are trying to emulate with our forward structure. Rocca is an exceptional pack mark but he is getting worked over the other way and blows up after 30 mins as a result.

We don't have Jon Brown, so what we are doing is the next best thing by playing two players with different skill sets on the arc. The results this season bear that out - funny that both Hahn and Murphy were rcovering from a knee and suffered soft tissue/shoulder injuries respectively in 2007 and the arse fell out of our season as a result. Even in 2006, we were flying early and then started losing regularly once Murph and Hahn went down a couple of weeks apart.

Tony Lockett/stewie lowe wouldnt survive in todays game. I have heard it all now!!!!

Mitch Hahn isnt a pack marking player. Not clean enough to be a 'go to' CHF, he is good hard working flanker.

Dont compare Minson to Ottens. Ottens is twice the player,with a great set of hands and a deadly kick for goal. Minson is an honest battler/ second string ruck.

Rocca is a very good player, and doesnt blow up after 30mins.

I say it again, wait to we get pressure from better sides, watch the small half forward line struggle.

[Sedat]

Tony Lockett/stewie lowe wouldnt survive in todays game. I have heard it all now!!!!
They would get double and triple teamed, have little or no room to move, be unable to assert their influence on the game and would get punished the other way by attacking defenders like Scarlett. It's not Lockett v the full back any more, it's Lockett v 3 defenders at every contest.


Mitch Hahn isnt a pack marking player. Not clean enough to be a 'go to' CHF, he is good hard working flanker.
Hahn has great hands and can take a contested grab. At worst, he creates a spillage - he's very rarely out-marked.


Dont compare Minson to Ottens. Ottens is twice the player,with a great set of hands and a deadly kick for goal. Minson is an honest battler/ second string ruck.
The comparison was structural and therefore relevant - nobody was suggesting that Minson is a better player than Ottens.


Rocca is a very good player, and doesnt blow up after 30mins.
Sorry you're right, it's 15 minutes. Go watch the 2006 Elimination Final again - all it took to render Rocca useless for the entire game was one chase on McMahon from the back pocket to the wing in the 1st quarter. The game has changed - contested marking targets who can't break free of their defensive opponents like Rocca, Gehrig and Whitnall are the past.


I say it again, wait to we get pressure from better sides, watch the small half forward line struggle.
Adelaide and Sydney are two of the best practitioners of defensive football going around. St Kilda is also very defensively oriented in their game plan - 3 out of 3 so far.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Rocca is a very good player, and doesnt blow up after 30mins.



I've thought for a while that you had never seen a game of footy in your life.

Now I am absolutely convinced you've certainly never seen a Collingwood game anyway.

Rocca is second only to Mal Michael for hopeless endurance. Rocca lasts 10 minutes, Michael only lasts 5.

[BulldogBelle]

Rocca is second only to Mal Michael for hopeless endurance. Rocca lasts 10 minutes, Michael only lasts 5.

Rocca everytime I see him play I count the minutes to when I see him doubled over gasping for breath and hands on hips. Yes he is a long kick and can kick the goals but gotta agree SS at endurance he really sucks.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Tony Lockett/stewie lowe wouldnt survive in todays game. I have heard it all now!!!!

Mitch Hahn isnt a pack marking player. Not clean enough to be a 'go to' CHF, he is good hard working flanker.

Dont compare Minson to Ottens. Ottens is twice the player,with a great set of hands and a deadly kick for goal. Minson is an honest battler/ second string ruck.

Rocca is a very good player, and doesnt blow up after 30mins.

I say it again, wait to we get pressure from better sides, watch the small half forward line struggle.

1) Are you ever happy with the football club?
2) Do you actually support this football club?
3) Ever posted anything positive?

Nobody can do anything right going by your accord. We're 6-0-1, what more do you want?

[Dancin' Douggy]

They would not survive in today's game. Opposition defenders would work them over the other way until they blow up. And what does Hahn have exactly if it's not a big body and can't take a strong pack mark? He would be no more than 2-3 cms shorter than both Lockett and Loewe.

Jono Brown is an exceptional footballer, not just because he can take a contested grab but because he has such a big motor that he can work his direct opponent into the ground and also take uncontested marks on the lead. Barry Hall isn't in the same class but does the same thing. Ditto Mooney. While we are at it, substitute Ottens for Minson and you can see exactly who we are trying to emulate with our forward structure. Rocca is an exceptional pack mark but he is getting worked over the other way and blows up after 30 mins as a result.

We don't have Jon Brown, so what we are doing is the next best thing by playing two players with different skill sets on the arc. The results this season bear that out - funny that both Hahn and Murphy were rcovering from a knee and suffered soft tissue/shoulder injuries respectively in 2007 and the arse fell out of our season as a result. Even in 2006, we were flying early and then started losing regularly once Murph and Hahn went down a couple of weeks apart.

Tony Lockett would tear shreds off any team any time anywhere. Never underestimate Plugger. Look at his highlight reel. He was incredibly fast for his size, was impossible to tackle and kicked a lot of goals from 'play', breaking tackles and snapping over his shoulder on either foot.
Sorry Sedat but I can't let that one go......

[LostDoggy]

They would get double and triple teamed, have little or no room to move, be unable to assert their influence on the game and would get punished the other way by attacking defenders like Scarlett. It's not Lockett v the full back any more, it's Lockett v 3 defenders at every contest.

Rubbish! The game hasnt changed that much. Long kicking and contested footy still wins games. Key big forwards win games. Lockett would still kick 8 goals against most back lines. And if he is tripl teamed you use the other options.

Hahn has great hands and can take a contested grab. At worst, he creates a spillage - he's very rarely out-marked.

His hands are ok, far from great. Johnno has great hands, Hill has nice hands, Mitchs are ok. Granted he creates spillage.

The comparison was structural and therefore relevant - nobody was suggesting that Minson is a better player than Ottens.

Geelong players have faith in Ottens,they can kick it long to him under pressure. Minson couldnt catch a bus most weeks.

Sorry you're right, it's 15 minutes. Go watch the 2006 Elimination Final again - all it took to render Rocca useless for the entire game was one chase on McMahon from the back pocket to the wing in the 1st quarter. The game has changed - contested marking targets who can't break free of their defensive opponents like Rocca, Gehrig and Whitnall are the past.

Rocca would be very handy in our team. And Fraser gehrig is 32, what else would u expect. 2yrs ago he was very good. Once again, the game hasnt changed BIG players win games.

Adelaide and Sydney are two of the best practitioners of defensive football going around. St Kilda is also very defensively oriented in their game plan - 3 out of 3 so far.

Both Adelaide and Sydney are not 'Top cLass' football sides. They might be ok definsivly, but they dont hurt you offensively. Scoreboard pressure is a killer.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Lockett would kick 100 goals a year just from free kicks today. He would also spend 8 weeks a year out suspended and have 4 opponents every week.

[LostDoggy]

I've thought for a while that you had never seen a game of footy in your life.
Now I am absolutely convinced you've certainly never seen a Collingwood game anyway.

Rocca is second only to Mal Michael for hopeless endurance. Rocca lasts 10 minutes, Michael only lasts 5.

Bit rich, coming from someone who tipped the Dockers to finish top 4 preseason.

[Twodogs]

Bit rich, coming from someone who tipped the Dockers to finish top 4 preseason.



Dont change the subject when you've been called on something.



Rocca, does he run games out or not?



How would Tony Lockett prevent Brian Lake from spending pretty much the whole game in our forward 50 kicking just as many goals as Plugger would while he stood in the goal square at the other end waiting for the ball to be kicked to him? It's a different game now, players are more mobile and move around the ground more to expose the defincies in their opponents.



Dont compare Minson to Ottens. Ottens is twice the player,with a great set of hands and a deadly kick for goal. Minson is an honest battler/ second string ruck.


Whilst you're obviously just being disingenious to undermine a debate you arent winning you left out a few things like Ottens constant battle with soft tissue injuries, his brittle mindset and the kicking yips that affect him twice a season. Minson has many quailities that Ottens just will never have-I dont think an opponent ever wondered where Ottens was when he was about to pick up the ball-I bet thats the first thing they think in our forward line. Ottens has played a season and a half of good footy over two clubs. You might want to wait for him to play consistant footy over an acceptable time period before you start using him as a debating point.




I say it again, wait to we get pressure from better sides, watch the small half forward line struggle.


Which sides? Name one. Just one side that we should be quaking in our boots about destroying our small forward line.

[LostDoggy]

Dont change the subject when you've been called on something.



Rocca, does he run games out or not?



How would Tony Lockett prevent Brian Lake from spending pretty much the whole game in our forward 50 kicking just as many goals as Plugger would while he stood in the goal square at the other end waiting for the ball to be kicked to him? It's a different game now, players are more mobile and move around the ground more to expose the defincies in their opponents.




Whilst you're obviously just being disingenious to undermine a debate you arent winning you left out a few things like Ottens constant battle with soft tissue injuries, his brittle mindset and the kicking yips that affect him twice a season. Minson has many quailities that Ottens just will never have-I dont think an opponent ever wondered where Ottens was when he was about to pick up the ball-I bet thats the first thing they think in our forward line. Ottens has played a season and a half of good footy over two clubs. You might want to wait for him to play consistant footy over an acceptable time period before you start using him as a debating point.




Which sides? Name one. Just one side that we should be quaking in our boots about destroying our small forward line.

Funniest thing i have read in years. Brian Lake isnt good enough to clean Pluggers boots, let alone play on him (and 'destroy' him).

[Twodogs]

Funniest thing i have read in years. Brian Lake isnt good enough to clean Pluggers boots, let alone play on him (and 'destroy' him).



Answer the question properly. Exactly how would Plugger stop Lake running off him? He wouldnt be able to run with him and simply kinghitting him is no longer an option.



There are also three other queations you have conveneintly ignored. Think very hard Jerry. The very small amount of credibility you have left is on the line here. Personally I dont think you have the footy smarts to understand what you're talking about.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Answer the question properly. Exactly how would Plugger stop Lake running off him? He wouldnt be able to run with him and simply kinghitting him is no longer an option.



There are also three other queations you have conveneintly ignored. Think very hard Jerry. The very small amount of credibility you have left is on the line here. Personally I dont think you have the footy smarts to understand what you're talking about.
I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

[bornadog]

I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

I agree, great post DD, plugger is the greatest FF of all time.

It is very difficult to compare players of the past with present as today they are full time ATHLETES with the benefits of sports science, diateticians, medicos on the spot, training that is second to none, GPS, heart rate monitoring etc etc.

On the other hand, its unfair to talk about Lake in the manner our friend Jerry does as that is not a proper debate but rather gutter talk.

[Topdog]

Plugger would be a very different player today. He would be quicker but at the same time probably wouldn't be as strong physically.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

Lake would run off him just the same as all defenders run forward of their opponents as they do now and if the ball rebounded Lockett would kick a goal, just like happens now.

Lake is taller than Lockett and very strong. He would matchup as well as anyone. Lockett was good but like anyone else was beatable. I remember Tony Campbell holding Lockett goalless at the Whitten Oval and Lake is a far, far better matchup (and player) than Campbell was.

[ledge]

Plugger the greatest full forward of all time?
Always debatable, rather say he was the greatest of his time , but then again Dunstall was pretty good and didnt Beasley kick the most goals in AFL over a ten year period? not that he compares just thought i would note it.
Hudson? Mc Kenna?Coventry? Pratt? Coleman? Ablett?
Better to say best of his era.

[Sedat]

Tony Lockett would tear shreds off any team any time anywhere. Never underestimate Plugger. Look at his highlight reel. He was incredibly fast for his size, was impossible to tackle and kicked a lot of goals from 'play', breaking tackles and snapping over his shoulder on either foot.
Sorry Sedat but I can't let that one go......
Lockett was a mighty player in his era, one of the best I've seen. But his career was played in a vastly different era with completely different tactial dynamics. Sheeds rendered Lockett virtually useless one afternoon at Moorabbin by the revolutionary tactic of playing Dean Wallis in the hole. Factor in today's game the zone defensive structures, loose players in defence, opposition midfielders swarming back to assist the defence, and even a guy as naturally talented as Plugger would struggle in today's game. He was pretty sharp off the mark but then his oppenents today would be much quicker than full backs from his era. He never possessed a big engine (didn't need to), and as a result he would not be capable of running with his direct opponent when that player would invariably gallop up field to provide an attacking option. As Sockeye also rightly pointed out, he would invariably lose his rag and find himself suspended more often than not. To survive and thrive today, he would need to be 100% fitter, defensively oriented (blocking and sheparding for his team-mates), far less inclined to be the only goal scoring option (a bit like Brown does for Bradshaw at Brisbane, and franlkin for Roughy at the Hawks), and lighter (therefore losing some core strength). Let's not forget he was only 191cms, which is a tall midfielder these days, so he would need to possess many attributes to his game that he would never have thought to consider during his playing days.

Your Jon Brown's, Nick Reiwoldt's, Cam Mooney's and Barry Hall's all have big engines, and they have quick pace off the mark. They are able to contribute defensively to the team cause. Their ability to take a contested grab is a bonus to the team, but if that was all they could do, they too would struggle in today's game. These guys are all multi-skilled, unlike previous 70+ goals a season players like Whitnall, Gehrig and Rocca who can all tak a strong pack mark but can't do much else. Even Lloyd, who is a champion in the top 10 all-time goalkickers list, is struggling to cope with the lack of space afforded to him in today's game.

[Dancin' Douggy]

IMO he's the best. And the stats pretty much back that up.

[Topdog]

Best for his time. Wouldn't be that brilliant in today's game.

[Twodogs]

I'm weighing in here. If I may.


Feel free. The more the merrier, and who doesnt love arguing footy?



For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.


Dont agree. It might happen once or twice a game but Lake being an extra option in the middle or up front would more than compensate for them IMO.


I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.



I'm pretty sure I saw his debut for St Kilda. If it wasnt his first game it was one of his earliest. From memory it was round 19 or 20 1983 at Moorabbin-we came back from 39 points down at 3/4 time to win it on the siren, Plugger wore #37 I think.



To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous


No-one, and I mean no-one, could spit the dummy like Plugger. He rarely applied any defensive pressure, didnt chase opponents (He always expected others do the hard work and running for him). I've got no problems thinking he would stand there watching his opponent knock up getting touches and not doing a thing about it.



BTW I personally dont think that Plugger was as good a player as Dunstall. Dunstall did the lot. Kicked goals, helped keep the ball in the forward 50, tackled and harrassed defenders, helped bring teammates into the game and was always prepared to lay the ball off to others in better position. The team success that Dunstall enjoyed over Lockett was no coincidence-Dunstall contributed to the team ethos far more than Plugger.

[bornadog]

You can post what you want, but you can't change facts that Plugger kicked more goals than any one in AFL history and I doubt the record will be broken as football is played differently today.

[Twodogs]

You can post what you want, but you can't change facts that Plugger kicked more goals than any one in AFL history and I doubt the record will be broken as football is played differently today.


Granted, but these days the full forward possie emcompasses much more than just kicking goals. Plugger over a 15 year career showed little desire to do any of those things.

[Sockeye Salmon]

You can post what you want, but you can't change facts that Plugger kicked more goals than any one in AFL history and I doubt the record will be broken as football is played differently today.

Football is played differently today.

[Mantis]

BTW I personally dont think that Plugger was as good a player as Dunstall. Dunstall did the lot. Kicked goals, helped keep the ball in the forward 50, tackled and harrassed defenders, helped bring teammates into the game and was always prepared to lay the ball off to others in better position. The team success that Dunstall enjoyed over Lockett was no coincidence-Dunstall contributed to the team ethos far more than Plugger.

How wrong can one little red haired (Well that's what colour it used to be) man be??

Dunstall played in an extremely successful for the bulk of his career whereas Lockett played in some extremely poor teams.

Dunstall had players like Pritchard, Platten, Jarman, Allan, the list goes on... feeding the ball to him lace out. Lockett had Jayson Daniels and Frankie Coughlan kicking the ball to him....He did have Winmar, Harvey and Kelly, but hopefully you get the picture.

I can't fathom how you could rate Dunstall ahead of Lockett, yeah he chased and all that rubbish, but Lockett almost single handlely carried the Saints and the Swans to more success than there teams deserved.

If Dunstall didn't play for Hawthorn through there successful periods they still would have been great team's, St.Kilda and Sydney would have been a rabble without Lockett.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'm with Mantis on this one.

Dustall was better at beating up crap backmen. Ithink he kicked 17 v Richmond one day and 16 v us (ironically on Tony Campbell, mostly, the man who kept Plugger goalless, work out my logic there!)

[LostDoggy]

Both were great players, and still would be in todays game.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm with Mantis. Dunstall was the best of 'the mortals', but Plugger was off the richter scale when he was on. His game per goal average is better than Dunstall's, he played more games and he was not part of a champion dynasty like Dunstall.

In 1991 Plugger was averaging 7.49 goals per game before doing his knee.
That was over 17 rounds, (127 goals) not just a handful of games.
He was on line for a home and away tally of 164 goals.

Add 3 finals and you're looking at 187 goals.

No one has come close to that level of sustained scoring power.
It's Bradmanesque.
( Except Trevor Barker at the swans disco)

Pluggers next best average was 7.09 over 11 games in '89.

Dunstall's best average was 6.3 in '92

I'm tearing my hair out that we're even having this conversation.
Plugger was incredible and he would thrive in any era.
A true natural football talent.
Footy might have changed but it's still footy.

There are only 2 players with a higher goal kicking average and they both played no where near as long as Plugger.

Peter Hudson 129 games 5.64 goals per game.
John Coleman 98 games 5.48 goals per game.

Plugger played 281 games for 4.83 goals per game

I think Plugger wins.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Yes I know, SAINTS DISCO!

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'm with Mantis. Dunstall was the best of 'the mortals', but Plugger was off the richter scale when he was on. His game per goal average is better than Dunstall's, he played more games and he was not part of a champion dynasty like Dunstall.

In 1991 Plugger was averaging 7.49 goals per game before doing his knee.
That was over 17 rounds, (127 goals) not just a handful of games.
He was on line for a home and away tally of 164 goals.

Add 3 finals and you're looking at 187 goals.

No one has come close to that level of sustained scoring power.
It's Bradmanesque.
( Except Trevor Barker at the swans disco)

Pluggers next best average was 7.09 over 11 games in '89.

Dunstall's best average was 6.3 in '92

I'm tearing my hair out that we're even having this conversation.
Plugger was incredible and he would thrive in any era.
A true natural football talent.
Footy might have changed but it's still footy.

There are only 2 players with a higher goal kicking average and they both played no where near as long as Plugger.

Peter Hudson 129 games 5.64 goals per game.
John Coleman 98 games 5.48 goals per game.

Plugger played 281 games for 4.83 goals per game

I think Plugger wins.
Bob Pratt kicked 150 goals in 18 matches and 2 finals in 1934 @ 7.50 per game.

I would have thought Pratt had a better goals per game average than Lockett.

[Twodogs]

I'm with Mantis. Dunstall was the best of 'the mortals', but Plugger was off the richter scale when he was on. His game per goal average is better than Dunstall's, he played more games and he was not part of a champion dynasty like Dunstall.

In 1991 Plugger was averaging 7.49 goals per game before doing his knee.
That was over 17 rounds, (127 goals) not just a handful of games.
He was on line for a home and away tally of 164 goals.

Add 3 finals and you're looking at 187 goals.

No one has come close to that level of sustained scoring power.
It's Bradmanesque.
( Except Trevor Barker at the swans disco)

Pluggers next best average was 7.09 over 11 games in '89.

Dunstall's best average was 6.3 in '92

I'm tearing my hair out that we're even having this conversation.
Plugger was incredible and he would thrive in any era.
A true natural football talent.
Footy might have changed but it's still footy.

There are only 2 players with a higher goal kicking average and they both played no where near as long as Plugger.

Peter Hudson 129 games 5.64 goals per game.
John Coleman 98 games 5.48 goals per game.

Plugger played 281 games for 4.83 goals per game

I think Plugger wins.


I make it 4.80 goals a game and Dunstall played 261 games for 4.66 goals per game.


Your argument is based on a difference of 0.14 of a percentage point?


That's all fine and good but playing full forward is so much more than kicking goals and a teamsport is not simply about personal achievments. If Dunstall hadnt been so team orientated and passed of to other players in better position then he would have kicked many, many more goals. I wouldnt mind betting that of all the players to kick 750 goals plus that he would have almost twice as many goal asists as the nest guy on the list.


Dont ever think I dont think that Lockett wasnt a great player. But Dunstall did more than just kick goals although he still kicked 1200+. He also did all the things that players are expected to do in successful sides and reaped the team and individual honours. Plugger played more as a one man band who did what he liked, choose when to try and when to sulk, disadvanted his team many, many times with suspensions for stupid, ill thought acts and contributed majorly to St Kilda's lack of team success. He was a far better player at the Swans though. In fact in the time he was at the Swans he probably was a better player than Dunstall was in the latter years of their career-that's still only 4 years though.



In 1991 Plugger was averaging 7.49 goals per game before doing his knee.
That was over 17 rounds, (127 goals) not just a handful of games.
He was on line for a home and away tally of 164 goals.Add 3 finals and you're looking at 187 goals.

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda. Anyway that was 1990 and St Kilda hadnt made the finals in 18 years at that stage and werent going to make them that year either so the 3 finals are irrelevent..
When I'd complain about stupid racehorses costing me money at the TAB my father would say "Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the horse hadnt stopped for a shit it would have won the race, right?"
The bottom line is didnt come close to 187. He did his knee and didnt finish the season out. Whose to say he would of continued his average? When Goergiades kicked 8 in the first round of '89 we werent all thinking "Great! Mark him down for a 200 goals plus season" Paul Salmon had kicked an enormous amount of goals in 9 games of the '84(?) season-60 or 70 and then did his knee, ditto Richard Osborne at Fitzroy in the late '80s but I dont remember anyone saying the 150 mark was under threat before they got hurt.

Anyway if you want to hold the individual goal kicking record up as proof of greatness, Pratt and Hudson share it with 150. Who's next on the list? Yep, it's my man Jason with 145! Lockett's best was 134 from memory.

[Twodogs]

Bob Pratt kicked 150 goals in 18 matches and 2 finals in 1934 @ 7.50 per game.

I would have thought Pratt had a better goals per game average than Lockett.


Pratt took a couple of years to find his place at full forward. South had him playing all over the field in the early part of his career and he lost form dramtically for a couple of years in the latter part of his VFL career. He kicked 681 in 158 for a 4.31 average which is still exeptional.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Bit rich, coming from someone who tipped the Dockers to finish top 4 preseason.

Hey Gerry I go to the footy with you when we play the Hawks or the Cats.

Do you remember that we beat the Hawks early last year and we knocked of the Cats two years ago when Griff cleaned up Ablett. We cant take much out of the last time we played these teams as they where at Full strength and we had no Midfield.

Let me know if you want to go?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

flip the coin boys on who's the best but I would take ether one in our side, Although Locket could become a liability in today game (With all the Camera's and Media) however Big Bad Barry changed for a little while.
I think that Dunstall had more team mates to compete with than Locket.

P.S I remember the thug locket sitting on top of Rick Kennedy in the Goal square one home game (at the Barkly street end) giving him as many cut lunches as possible. Couldn't warm to him after that!!!!

[LostDoggy]

All this talk of big bruising forwards has me thinking that one-route teams have rarely prospered, and this is still true today. None of Fev, Pavlich, Richo, Lockett, Rocca et al have played in a premiership -- in fact, their teams have struggled for most of their time there. Coincidence? The last five premiership teams had multi-pronged attacks built on mobile marking targets and many, many avenues to goal. There is nearly no way for a team to avoid becoming 'full-forward conscious', so to speak, if he is the one big presence in the forwardline. Mooney, Lloyd, Lucas etc are the prototype modern forwards in that they are strong marks but also great movers with plenty of other teammates to take the heat when they make long leads out of their forward 50.

Also, when their teams were successful they played with goalscoring midfielders...

The only common denominator of every premiership team of the past ten years: Essendon, Brisbane, Port, Adelaide, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast.. is not a dominant full-forward or half-forward, but a goal-scoring midfield. Goal-scoring midfielders are like gold in the modern game. (Not saying full-forwards aren't important, of course there are structural issues etc that we've seen without a good long target...)

That's why I think the current Hawthorn and St.Kilda teams will NOT win a premiership in the modern era. When their forwardline is shut down they lose ALL their goal-scoring prowess.

[1eyedog]

The only common denominator of every premiership team of the past ten years: Essendon, Brisbane, Port, Adelaide, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast.. is not a dominant full-forward or half-forward, but a goal-scoring midfield. Goal-scoring midfielders are like gold in the modern game. (Not saying full-forwards aren't important, of course there are structural issues etc that we've seen without a good long target...)

That's why I think the current Hawthorn and St.Kilda teams will NOT win a premiership in the modern era. When their forwardline is shut down they lose ALL their goal-scoring prowess.

I always thought big key forwards were a prerequisite for flags. That was the call when Geelong lost all their Grand Finals from 89 to 93.

Essendon-Lloyd
Brisbane-Brown
Tredrea-Port
Sydney-Hall
West Coast- The Big Q (all forwards/key position forwards in teams who have won flags over last eight years).

[LostDoggy]

Lloyd kicked 5 and Lucas kicked 4 when the Bombers played Brisbane in 2001, a good day by any forward's reckoning, yet they lost comprehensively. Only three other players kicked a goal for Essendon.

Only Luke Power, a midfielder/small forward that day, kicked 3 goals for the Lions, while four other players kicked in with 2 each; the Lions had 9 different goalkickers.

When Essendon won in 2000, Lloydy kicked three goals in junk time. Barnard, hardly a power forward, was the Bombers top scorer with 4. They had 10 different goalkickers, seven of them midfielders.

---

When West Coast won in 2006, Lynch kicked three goals, but five of their seven goalkickers on the day were midfielders. Barry Hall was held goalless.

In 2005, Hall only kicked 2 goals, and Lynch didn't even play. Midfielders kicked 90% of the goals for either team.

---

Alistair Lynch was the only forward who's had a significant impact in a recent Grand Final, in 2003, when he kicked four goals in a winning side. Even on that day, however Brisbane's midfielders kicked 14 of their 20 goals, with Aker kicking 5.

---

It cannot be denied that the some of the best 'power forwards' of our time: Fev, Richo, Neitz, Pavlich, Rocca etc. have mostly been unsuccessful from a team standpoint while having stellar personal careers. Every single one of their teams have been accused at one time or another of being too 'insert full-forward's name here' centric or conscious. Even Hawthorn now are trying not to be too 'Buddy conscious'. Too much is left to too few. (Notable exceptions are Wayne Carey, but even he had a great team around him).

Michael Jordan didn't win anything for seven years until the Bulls realised they needed a team and a coach around a star scorer.

Lloyd, Brown, Tredrea, Lynch and Hall are fantastic forwards, but the reason West Coast was great was Cox, Judd, Kerr and Cousins, Brisbane with Keating, Aker, Voss and Lappin, Port with Brogan/Lade, Burgoyne, Cornes and Stevens, and Geelong with Ottens, Ablett, Bartel and Corey.

A forward, no matter how great, can always be shut down on some days. A top-line, matchwinning/goal-scoring midfield is nearly impossible to shut down.

[LostDoggy]

ps. we're talking about differences in degrees now, please realise. I'm not saying a team should only have a midfield and no power forwards. They both have different roles and are crucial to a team's overall structure (thus I am very happy with a Will Minson type in our forwardline for balance and structure). But in the debate of which I think is more important, a quality forward may be important, but plenty of teams have great forwards without ever going anywhere, but no team will ever win a flag without a great midfield. No team with a great midfield is down near the bottom of the ladder, but plenty of the best key forwards in our game have won wooden spoons regularly and recently.

[1eyedog]

You've made some interesting points, but it takes a good 22 games to get to a Grand Final. You've got to get there to win it. Just because KP forwards may not have dominated a Grand Final for a few years doesn't mean they haven't had a huge influence in getting their teams there. Hall and Lynch for instance had huge years when their teams won their flags. I think you are looking into this midfield thing to deeply, Grand Finals are also won from defence, not from the midfield exclusively, but I'm sure you are not suggesting this. If it wasn't for G. Ablett in the 89 Granny Geelong would have lost it by 10 goals, rather than nearly winning it. I'm not trying to contest what you are saying, far from it and I agree with the point you made about Richo being a champion player but never really having any team success. This highlights your point of the value of mids but not in a goal kicking sense, more in a feed sense where the mid feeds the champion forward. Richo and Fev have never had a decent midfield kicking the ball to them! No wonder they have never had any success. I played at FF from under 8s through to 183 senior games with Geelong West and Newtown in the GFL, maybe I'm bias. Actually, I probably am.

[LostDoggy]

You've made some interesting points, but it takes a good 22 games to get to a Grand Final. You've got to get there to win it. Just because KP forwards may not have dominated a Grand Final for a few years doesn't mean they haven't had a huge influence in getting their teams there. Hall and Lynch for instance had huge years when their teams won their flags. I think you are looking into this midfield thing to deeply, Grand Finals are also won from defence, not from the midfield exclusively, but I'm sure you are not suggesting this. If it wasn't for G. Ablett in the 89 Granny Geelong would have lost it by 10 goals, rather than nearly winning it. I'm not trying to contest what you are saying, far from it and I agree with the point you made about Richo being a champion player but never really having any team success. This highlights your point of the value of mids but not in a goal kicking sense, more in a feed sense where the mid feeds the champion forward. Richo and Fev have never had a decent midfield kicking the ball to them! No wonder they have never had any success. I played at FF from under 8s through to 183 senior games with Geelong West and Newtown in the GFL, maybe I'm bias. Actually, I probably am.

Haha.. good place to have a bias from, though! I respectfully bow out of the argument -- I'm only an avid observer and thinker of the game -- coached plenty of other sports but not footy (although I've "fly-on-the-wall"ed quite a bit..), and I really respect and value the insight of someone who's actually played extensively. (I was going off-thread anyway, so here's as good a place as any to slip away quietly into the night...)

[1eyedog]

Haha.. good place to have a bias from, though! I respectfully bow out of the argument -- I'm only an avid observer and thinker of the game -- coached plenty of other sports but not footy (although I've "fly-on-the-wall"ed quite a bit..), and I really respect and value the insight of someone who's actually played extensively. (I was going off-thread anyway, so here's as good a place as any to slip away quietly into the night...)

On the contrary being a forward can bias you to their actual importance. I always thought I was one with most of the responsibility as the coach always used to say, look for Johnny long, look for Johnny long, so I built up an ideal of what my role was, and that role was to kick as many goals as possible. Of course as I became more team orientated I saw otherwise and started to recognize all the effort our backs and mids put in. My point was that I see forwards as very important in the modern game due to my role in my football past. Forwards often cut lonely figures in a football team. I know I did when I felt I was just reaping the rewards from the effort of our mids. Another view, such as yours I found interesting and I was not trying to say either was right one way or the other. Often it's the theorists who have the best insights rather than the practitioners.

[LostDoggy]

Footy hasnt changed in 150 yrs, key forwards win flags!

[LostDoggy]

Footy hasnt changed in 150 yrs, key forwards win flags!

That's why Tony Lockett -- best key forward statistically in history -- is weighed down with premiership medallions right? ;)

[LostDoggy]

That's why Tony Lockett -- best key forward statistically in history -- is weighed down with premiership medallions right? ;)

Locketts medal is weighing wayne CAREY down.

[LostDoggy]

Haha. Good reply. :)

[1eyedog]

Locketts medal is weighing wayne CAREY down.

Carey played in much better teams than Lockett ever did IMO

[1eyedog]

Locketts medal is weighing wayne CAREY down.

Carey played in much better teams that Lockett ever did IMO, this thread appears to be becoming cyclical, kinda like a fish in a bowl who stumbles upon the sunken castle every 15 seconds

[The Underdog]

Carey played in much better teams that Lockett ever did IMO, this thread appears to be becoming cyclical, kinda like a fish in a bowl who stumbles upon the sunken castle every 15 seconds

Funny part is the thread title is Best CHF in the AFL in 2008.
Most of it has been devoted to any year but 2008.

[hujsh]

So who was the best again:rolleyes:

[Sedat]

So who was the best again:rolleyes:
I reckon it's Murphahn ;)

[Twodogs]

So who was the best again:rolleyes:



That's an easy question to answer. Kelvin Lindsay Templeton.

[ledge]

That's an easy question to answer. Kelvin Lindsay Templeton.

By an absolute mile!
Dont forget a bloke called Quinlan either.

[ledge]

2008 has to be Buddy Franklin doesnt it? Or is he playing more at full forward? 9 shots at goal per game either way is very scary stuff.
Murph has never been a big goal kicker but sometimes it depends on the game plan.
Buddy is a kick it to me focal point as is Johnny Brown and now Bradshaw has popped up.
Murph isnt one of those huge marking pack players so is not looked at the same way.

[1eyedog]

By an absolute mile!
Dont forget a bloke called Quinlan either.


Seconded again

[1eyedog]

2008 has to be Buddy Franklin doesnt it? Or is he playing more at full forward? 9 shots at goal per game either way is very scary stuff.
Murph has never been a big goal kicker but sometimes it depends on the game plan.
Buddy is a kick it to me focal point as is Johnny Brown and now Bradshaw has popped up.
Murph isnt one of those huge marking pack players so is not looked at the same way.

Franklin is the best CHF atm imo (Geez am I writing English here? An Englishman would not even understand this forum speak:)) Murph is going to be a real champ, his fitness is back and he is moving beautifully. I think he is going to be better than we thought he would be. He may well revolutionalise the CHF position I reckon, the quick leading, smart, creative type.

[hujsh]

Franklin is the best CHF atm imo (Geez am I writing English here? An Englishman would not even understand this forum speak:)) Murph is going to be a real champ, his fitness is back and he is moving beautifully. I think he is going to be better than we thought he would be. He may well revolutionalise the CHF position I reckon, the quick leading, smart, creative type.

Would you say Frankin is CHF?

Is there any true CHF's left who play there more than half the match at CHF?

[ledge]

Im english thank you very much!

[Twodogs]

Im english thank you very much!


We know that but we dont mind! You cant help where you were born.:D

[1eyedog]

Im english thank you very much!

I apologize and also feel terribly sorry for you:D, still, we need all the members we can get:p

[1eyedog]

Would you say Frankin is CHF?

Is there any true CHF's left who play there more than half the match at CHF?

Interesting question. He seems to play around 45m a fair bit. Hard to say where Buddy plays really isn't it, although I think he plays wherever he wants to, but he's definately not your traditional type full forward either. Roving forward?

A 6'7 Bartlett?

[ledge]

I apologize and also feel terribly sorry for you:D, still, we need all the members we can get:p

My i remind you that we are red,white and blue,have the Bulldog as our mascot and were once called the imperials, if ever there was a club that could pick up english supporters its this one!
You might have just upset half our supporters!

[1eyedog]

My i remind you that we are red,white and blue,have the Bulldog as our mascot and were once called the imperials, if ever there was a club that could pick up english supporters its this one!
You might have just upset half our supporters!

Sorry Ledge (and fellow supporters) I'm a staunch republican.

[Desipura]

Would you say Frankin is CHF?

Is there any true CHF's left who play there more than half the match at CHF?
Slightly off topic, it will be interesting whether the tight confines of Aurora will reduce his effectiveness against us.
No doubt we will try and restrict Buddy when he lining up for goal to ensure he does not get the left footers hook happening. As has been reported Buddy needs alot of space to his left when lining up otherwise he will kick you 1 goal 6 points like he did a few weeks back.

[LostDoggy]

Pavlich is a true half-forward. As is Browny, surely, unless he's not getting the ball, in which case he goes into the centre chasing kicks, but that's hardly revolutionary, is it.

[hujsh]

I like Riewoldt as a true CHF. Can get his 2-3 goals but is the gateway to their forwardline

[Twodogs]

My i remind you that we are red,white and blue,have the Bulldog as our mascot and were once called the imperials, if ever there was a club that could pick up english supporters its this one!
You might have just upset half our supporters!


We were called The Prince Imperials. Named after the second-in-line to the French throne.


venez sur les bouledogues!

[Sockeye Salmon]

We were called The Prince Imperials. Named after the second-in-line to the French throne.


venez sur les bouledogues!

Who died fighting the Boers with the English!

Sacre bleu!

[ledge]

Sockeye i have been warned to stay on topic, cos it looks like i was wrong and i not fond of frogs, so I still say Buddy Franklin, also heres one out of the blue as far as being a centre half forward and kicking goals from that range, Rocca would prob win that part of it.

[1eyedog]

Sockeye i have been warned to stay on topic, cos it looks like i was wrong and i not fond of frogs, so I still say Buddy Franklin, also heres one out of the blue as far as being a centre half forward and kicking goals from that range, Rocca would prob win that part of it.

I hate Rocca, he's so over-rated IMO, he's useless, when was the last time he did anything useful? English, French, Germans, they're all from the same Celtic/Anglo Saxon/Norman stock. Oops now I put my foot in it:o

[GVGjr]

I think the three standouts are Riewoldt, Pavlich and Franklin but Brown on his day covers them all as a true CHF.

If I had to pick one it would be Riewoldt.

[1eyedog]

I think the three standouts are Riewoldt, Pavlich and Franklin but Brown on his day covers them all as a true CHF.

If I had to pick one it would be Riewoldt.

I also think Travis Cloke will be very, very good there.

[GVGjr]

I also think Travis Cloke will be very, very good there.

I mentioned him earlier in the thread but for 2008, they are the three standouts.

Sometime in the future Cloke will be hard to stop.

[bornadog]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYtemplestowe_gallery__287.jpg

One of the best ever

[bornadog]

Not Far behind
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYgrant_gallery__470x311.jpg


http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYgrantmk_gallery__289x400.jpg

[1eyedog]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYtemplestowe_gallery__287.jpg

One of the best ever

The best CHF I ever saw.

[hujsh]

The best CHF I ever saw.

Who is he (sorry for not knowing)

[Twodogs]

I also think Travis Cloke will be very, very good there.



If I could have my pick of any player in the AFL right now, he'd be the one. He works hard, covers the whole ground and will only imporove.0


Will be the best player in the league in the not to distant future.

[Twodogs]

Who is he (sorry for not knowing)



Kelvin Templeton. Coleman medalist, century goal kicker and brownlow medalist all before the age of 22. Did his knee in the preseason after he won the brownlow and basically never played again. If he hadnt there would be no dispute as to who the greatest player of all time was.


The single biggest footballing tragedy in my lifetime-genius wasnt enough to describe how good he was. In one game against St Kilda in 1978 he kicked 15.9 and a couple of out of bounds. They say Franklyn is a freak(and he is) for having 8 or 9 shots at goal most games. KT had 26 shots at goal that day and would have comfortably averaged the same as Buddy over a five year period.


He was just the best player I ever saw, no question.

[Twodogs]

Who died fighting the Boers with the English!

Sacre bleu!




Zulus, I think.

[LostDoggy]

Zulus, I think.

No they won

[ledge]

Rocca is a great long kick and good mark, like the CHFs from years ago, whther you hate him or not is irrelevant. im just pointing out as much as great mark and long goals is what he is good at , but all the other stuff he is terrible at.

[1eyedog]

Rocca is a great long kick and good mark, like the CHFs from years ago, whther you hate him or not is irrelevant. im just pointing out as much as great mark and long goals is what he is good at , but all the other stuff he is terrible at.

Thanks for mentioning that irrelevant fact.

[1eyedog]

Who is he (sorry for not knowing)

Two Dogs summed it up aptly enough

[ledge]

Thanks for mentioning that irrelevant fact.

Is it irrelevant to the original post?
I have put up a name of a CHF that is very good at a certain facet that true CHFs posses,
All depends what part of a CHFs game strengths you want to look at.
All CHFs have strengths and weaknesses, Buddys at the moment his weakness is his accuracy.
Brown, well he doesnt have too many weaknesses but hasnt been in the greatest form,and we are only looking at 2008.
Game plan also comes into it, Murphy is not the type of player i would call a CHF of the previous 2 i mentioned.
Pavlich is a great CHF but his side is so bad he is like Richo and is forced to play everywhere.
Tredrea has a lot of talent but is so far up himself half the time he is looking at his biceps to worry about the ball.
So for mine at the moment its Buddy, 9 shots at goal every game is massive, when the accuracy comes good i hope we arent playing them.

[1eyedog]

Is it irrelevant to the original post?
I have put up a name of a CHF that is very good at a certain facet that true CHFs posses,
All depends what part of a CHFs game strengths you want to look at.
All CHFs have strengths and weaknesses, Buddys at the moment his weakness is his accuracy.
Brown, well he doesnt have too many weaknesses but hasnt been in the greatest form,and we are only looking at 2008.
Game plan also comes into it, Murphy is not the type of player i would call a CHF of the previous 2 i mentioned.
Pavlich is a great CHF but his side is so bad he is like Richo and is forced to play everywhere.
Tredrea has a lot of talent but is so far up himself half the time he is looking at his biceps to worry about the ball.
So for mine at the moment its Buddy, 9 shots at goal every game is massive, when the accuracy comes good i hope we arent playing them.

Generally agree with the above, Rocca, however, kicks the ball long. That's pretty much it IMO. He's not a hopeless mark but he just doesn't give himself the opportunities to take the ball on the lead because 1) he really has no idea about space (and we ain't talking about the singularity or the big bang here) and he runs out of petrol 10 mins into every quarter which affects his ability to lead constantly (like Richo, Pav and Buddy). His lack of constitution also affects his ability (or lack thereof) of being a defensive forward when the ball is on the ground in his attacking 50. So (IMO) Rocca has one strength, he kicks the ball a long way. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath of Brown, Richo and Pav, he's half the player and really should have made more of himself through his career (which is nearly over IMO). His brother gave so much more to the two clubs he represented. Just my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree, but that's what makes everyone interesting.

[ledge]

Rocca is a great long kick and good mark, like the CHFs from years ago, whther you hate him or not is irrelevant. im just pointing out as much as great mark and long goals is what he is good at , but all the other stuff he is terrible at.

And this was my original post, exactly what you just said.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Kelvin Templeton. Coleman medalist, century goal kicker and brownlow medalist all before the age of 22. Did his knee in the preseason after he won the brownlow and basically never played again. If he hadnt there would be no dispute as to who the greatest player of all time was.


The single biggest footballing tragedy in my lifetime-genius wasnt enough to describe how good he was. In one game against St Kilda in 1978 he kicked 15.9 and a couple of out of bounds. They say Franklyn is a freak(and he is) for having 8 or 9 shots at goal most games. KT had 26 shots at goal that day and would have comfortably averaged the same as Buddy over a five year period.


He was just the best player I ever saw, no question.

Templeton did the sort of things that Carey did but kicked a lot more goals.

Templeton kicked 90 in a season playing CHF.

[1eyedog]

And this was my original post, exactly what you just said.

I reckon he's not as good a mark and as you suggest and shouldn't be mentioned with the aforementioned CHFs.

[ledge]

Templeton did the sort of things that Carey did but kicked a lot more goals.

Templeton kicked 90 in a season playing CHF.

Amazing footballer, lucky looks dont come into it, not that i can talk!

[1eyedog]

Not Far behind
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYgrant_gallery__470x311.jpg


http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/wbFOOTSCRAYgrantmk_gallery__289x400.jpg

Also won a Brownlow from CHF. Now that his career is over and he doesn't have to think of the team first (which of course he always did), I wonder whether that incident during his Brownlow year doesn't haunt him?

[ledge]

I did hear somewhere he admitted it haunted him , but he isnt alone i think it haunts all bulldog supporters and that Collins dude i hope he never forgets it!

[LostDoggy]

I think a few regulars should read some of the early posts on this thread.
Key CHF are over rated...what a joke.

[LostDoggy]

Which sides? Name one. Just one side that we should be quaking in our boots about destroying our small forward line.

Geelong Twodogs?

[The Coon Dog]

I think a few regulars should read some of the early posts on this thread.
Key CHF are over rated...what a joke.

jerry, there are over 100 posts in this thread, rather than being cryptic, can you please be more specific?

[craigsahibee]

As the title says, and after todays game it has to be the Moondog.

He along with Stevie J were pretty good today.

Mooney may not be a superstar, but I would have him in my side before the hookfooted freak anyday.

And by the way, Plugger was better than Dunstall for what it's worth. Dunstall is an ar$ehole and a blight on humanity.

[hujsh]

I think a few regulars should read some of the early posts on this thread.
Key CHF are over rated...what a joke.

You've been waiting for this match haven't you;)

[Scorlibo]

Mooney may not be a superstar, but I would have him in my side before the hookfooted freak anyday.

I'd take Riewoldt before both of them.

[hujsh]

I'd take Riewoldt before both of them.

Well now that he can kick straight he can rival Buddy

[Sedat]

I think a few regulars should read some of the early posts on this thread.
Key CHF are over rated...what a joke.
Read post #28 again. If you're too lazy, below is an extract from it:

Your Jon Brown's, Nick Reiwoldt's, Cam Mooney's and Barry Hall's all have big engines, and they have quick pace off the mark. They are able to contribute defensively to the team cause. Their ability to take a contested grab is a bonus to the team, but if that was all they could do, they too would struggle in today's game. These guys are all multi-skilled, unlike previous 70+ goals a season players like Whitnall, Gehrig and Rocca who can all tak a strong pack mark but can't do much else.

How many contested marks did Cam Mooney take today, and conversely how many uncontested marks did he take on the lead?

Don't bump a thread and then mis-represent the people who posted on it.

[LostDoggy]

Read post #28 again. If you're too lazy, below is an extract from it:

Your Jon Brown's, Nick Reiwoldt's, Cam Mooney's and Barry Hall's all have big engines, and they have quick pace off the mark. They are able to contribute defensively to the team cause. Their ability to take a contested grab is a bonus to the team, but if that was all they could do, they too would struggle in today's game. These guys are all multi-skilled, unlike previous 70+ goals a season players like Whitnall, Gehrig and Rocca who can all tak a strong pack mark but can't do much else.

How many contested marks did Cam Mooney take today, and conversely how many uncontested marks did he take on the lead?

Don't bump a thread and then mis-represent the people who posted on it.

I didnt mis-represent anyone Sedat.
Why did you quote post #28, what was wrong with post #1?? ? Who is mis-representing...

[Topdog]

I didnt mis-represent anyone Sedat.
Why did you quote post #28, what was wrong with post #1?? ? Who is mis-representing...

How about you actually say what was wrong with post #1?

[Sedat]

I didnt mis-represent anyone Sedat.
Why did you quote post #28, what was wrong with post #1?? ? Who is mis-representing...
You misquoted by suggesting that posters previously stated that key CHF's are over-rated. Nobody mentioned that at all, just that the role of the key forward has changed. If you are a 198cm man mountain but can't run from contest to contest you are going to be nigh on useless in today's game. Mooney did not take one contested mark on Saturday from memory, but he was able to run from contest to contest and repeatedly present an option to his temates further upfield (which was the point of my post #28). Geelong players were able hit Mooney lace out on the lead time and again. Why? One, Geelong's midfielders are incredibly skilled, and two, their midfield/running defenders were given too much latitide to hit the targets up forward.

Good forward structure is all cause and effect - if clean delivery is afforded further up the field any forward line can look effective. By contrast, our forward delivery (especially after half time) was haphazard and lacked penetration (due to Geelong's midfield defensive pressure on our ball carriers), hence we looked impotent up forward. Even Geelong's much vaunted forward line looked just as impotent again Collingwood earlier this year, despite it boasting the likes of Mooney and Johnson - it was made to look second-rate by Collingwood's midfield pressure on the ball carrier that night. If Rob Murphy wore Mooney's jumper on Saturday, he would arguably have been just as effective.