Fatigue

[Go_Dogs]

How big a part to you guys and gals feel that fatigue plays coming into the last 1/3 of the season?

The Crows I think have been an interesting case study under Neil Craig, particularly over the 2005 and 2006 seasons, where they practically sat top of the ladder all year in fairly dominating style, only to crumble come September.

During this period it was widely publicised that they under took a heavy training workload, having monster 2 plus hour sessions on Wednesdays at high intensity. A lot of the senior players couldn't cope and voiced their concerns to Craig.



IMO come this time of year we need to be very mindful of fatigue. I'm pretty comfortable for us to wrap a few guys in cotton wool over the coming weeks and make sure that they are at 100% for September. We've all but secured the top 4 spot now, and with a few players hopefully coming back from injury over the next few weeks we must do it.

I'm more than happy for junior players to continue working hard, as they need to continue to have an eye on the long term fitness of these players, and long term the club will benefit from working their bodies pretty hard at this stage.

Guys like Johnno though, should be given a rest. He's not getting near the output he should at the moment (and a few others are in the same boat, Hahn and Aker come to mind). We need him back at his best come September.

I really don't care if no other clubs are doing it, or we haven't done it before, but I feel we must this year.

[Mantis]

I think this can be managed quite well with the split round's now in fashion. These give club's and player's the opportunity to have a weekend off and 'freshen' up a little.

As a side issue Johnson must be rested this week. His output over the past 6 weeks has been well below his usual standards and now that he has another slight injury (ankle strain) we must ensure that he is as close to 100% in 4 weeks time as possible. Playing him this week will not help us achieve that result.

[Dry Rot]

Hahn in the same boat?

[Mantis]

^^^

Probably, but with him I'm not sure if it's form or injuries holding him back. Maybe one is influencing the other.

We need to stagger it as well, can't have them all resting the same week.

[ledge]

After last Saturday against the Cats i think half our side had another week off anyway.
Aker and Hahn and a few others cant possibly be fatigued after that showing.

[GVGjr]

Fatigue should not be an issue. We have just had a break plus we haven't a lot of injuries testing our depth.

Our younger blokes have been well managed with the likes of Ward, Hill, Tiller and Harbrow all getting sent back to Williamstown before getting run into the ground and we have had a full bench for most games meaning that we have been able to rotate and rest players as the game determines. We also haven't had a lot of close games that drain the players.

All in all I don't see why we should be feeling the strain of fatigue.

[BulldogBelle]

They need to find form, not a rest IMO.

[1eyedog]

Fatigue? What does that mean? They are professional footballers, if you can't play 22 games of football with 2 breaks in between you should seriously looking at your pre-season regime. Blokes like Hahn, Aker and Johnson with 100+ 250+ and 300+ games under their belts respectively should have a solid base fitness to enable them to get through the season. If you are meaning that because they are carrying niggles they thus need a week off then that is another story but they wont be fatigued.

[GVGjr]

Griff, you might have something here. Two games in a row where we faded from the 20 minute mark in the 3rd quarter.

[LostDoggy]

Yep, you may just be right Griff. Dont know how they fix it though.

[BulldogBelle]

Griff, you might have something here. Two games in a row where we faded from the 20 minute mark in the 3rd quarter.

Last qtr against Melbourne was not that flash either.

[GVGjr]

Last qtr against Melbourne was not that flash eigther.

Good point

[Go_Dogs]

It was interesting. I felt today it was more of a concentration thing perhaps. We looked $1,000,000 early in the 3rd when we raced away to a fairly solid lead given the context of the game, and after Fev kicked his little walk around snap everything went pear shaped.

Perhaps an interesting indicator is the fact that Hill came in, get the feeling perhaps the coaching staff feel we are a bit short of run, but I guess we'll have to find out over the next few weeks. Hopefully we might see a few guys given a bit of a rest too.

[1eyedog]

If you want to discuss fatigue as a possible condition for why we have not been performing why are other clubs not experiencing the same condition. We did not start pre-season that much earlier than the rest of the competition.

[Pembleton]

Perhaps we have started a heavy training load in preparation for the finals? I think its pretty common practice amongst clubs that tie up a top 4 spot with time to spare, like we have this year.

[Pembleton]

Perhaps we have started a heavy training load in preparation for the finals? I think its pretty common practice amongst clubs that tie up a top 4 spot with time to spare, like we have this year.

I notice in an article quoting Eade that he has actually alluded to exactly that. ^^^

[1eyedog]

I notice in an article quoting Eade that he has actually alluded to exactly that. ^^^

He also said that he doubted that was the problem but he was going to look into it. Hawthorn have also struggled (against Nth Melbourne and against Geelong with half a side on Friday, a game Hawthorn should have won), maybe there is something in it but surely this type of training design has been formulated with success in other world sports where I think it was borrowed from, unsure where. I know the Australian cricket coaching staff copped some flak over what they called high energy training just before a major tournament a few years ago when there were some minor injuries and a few loses (may have been the lead up to the WC in England in 99). My point is surely the coaching staff know by now whether this type of training regime (if it is indeed the cause of our current on-field woes) is successful or not.

[whythelongface]

There is validity in the whole training argument so that a team actually peaks during the Finals series. However, I doubt that it states anywhere that you must surrender meekly to a team in 10th posi by being beaten 61 to 2 midway through the 3rd qtr. The whole fatigue thing doesn't gel with me. It is more to it than that.

[Go_Dogs]

My point is surely the coaching staff know by now whether this type of training regime (if it is indeed the cause of our current on-field woes) is successful or not.

How would they? The game is changing so quickly that I think this is the single hardest area to get right. Loading the players up with cyclical light, medium, hard, rest type programs definitely works in some elite sports, but football is so different to most elite sports due to the contact and collisions involved.

Neil Craig is the BEST imo as far as fitness goes, he knows everything about sports science and spent a large number of years working with Olympic cyclists, and has a pretty good grasp on how to get an athlete prepared. Football though, completely different. These days maintaining conditioning and making sure the players are properly rehabbed are super important.

Last year we also tried a very different pre-season program, more short distance running, and it was pretty widely accepted that this program hadn't worked last year when we ran out of legs. This year we went with something a bit different.


My point is that at this stage, the game at this speed and only continuing to change, there are not too many case studies and concrete answers for fitness and fatigue. Especially when your dealing with lists of players who cover such a large age range and have so many competing needs.

[SonofScray]

There is validity in the whole training argument so that a team actually peaks during the Finals series. However, I doubt that it states anywhere that you must surrender meekly to a team in 10th posi by being beaten 61 to 2 midway through the 3rd qtr. The whole fatigue thing doesn't gel with me. It is more to it than that.

I agree, even if that was the sole factor though, its very dangerous to mess around with form. A few demoralising losses, and we can fall into bad habits very quickly.

[Sedat]

It was interesting. I felt today it was more of a concentration thing perhaps. We looked $1,000,000 early in the 3rd when we raced away to a fairly solid lead given the context of the game, and after Fev kicked his little walk around snap everything went pear shaped.
I thought the momentum shift started with the appalling in the back decision against Addison on Wiggins - it was textbook use of the body. No matter, we had 40 minutes thereafter to steady and stem the flow as top quality sides would but were utterly powerless to do so.

[LostDoggy]

Fatigue is a poor excuse. If our blokes can't run out a game playing this style of footy then the coaches need to formulate a new game plan. There are too many times when our players try to handball too quickly without actually looking to see if their team mate is in a better position.

Lets just go back to basics. Man up and tackle hard when the opposition has the ball. When we take a mark don't play on automatically, take a few steps back from the mark and give the ball off to a) some one in the clear or b) a running player who is not under pressure.

Kick the ball to our leading forwards instead of bombing it into the goal square.

That's what Geelong do. Why do we have to try and implement some fanciful team plan just to be different?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Fatigue is a poor excuse. If our blokes can't run out a game playing this style of footy then the coaches need to formulate a new game plan. There are too many times when our players try to handball too quickly without actually looking to see if their team mate is in a better position.

Lets just go back to basics. Man up and tackle hard when the opposition has the ball. When we take a mark don't play on automatically, take a few steps back from the mark and give the ball off to a) some one in the clear or b) a running player who is not under pressure.

Kick the ball to our leading forwards instead of bombing it into the goal square.

That's what Geelong do. Why do we have to try and implement some fanciful team plan just to be different?

That's just wrong.

What Geelong do is handball in the first instance without caring if the other bloke is in a better spot. Just move it as quickly as you can. Eventually someone will be clear.

[1eyedog]

How would they? The game is changing so quickly that I think this is the single hardest area to get right. Loading the players up with cyclical light, medium, hard, rest type programs definitely works in some elite sports, but football is so different to most elite sports due to the contact and collisions involved.

Neil Craig is the BEST imo as far as fitness goes, he knows everything about sports science and spent a large number of years working with Olympic cyclists, and has a pretty good grasp on how to get an athlete prepared. Football though, completely different. These days maintaining conditioning and making sure the players are properly rehabbed are super important.

Last year we also tried a very different pre-season program, more short distance running, and it was pretty widely accepted that this program hadn't worked last year when we ran out of legs. This year we went with something a bit different.


My point is that at this stage, the game at this speed and only continuing to change, there are not too many case studies and concrete answers for fitness and fatigue. Especially when your dealing with lists of players who cover such a large age range and have so many competing needs.

Why would we even try something different then when we have thus far been on a successful training formula. If the coaches don't know if it ain't gonna work bloody leave it alone. The game does not change that much in one season. In the old days you did all your skills and base fitness in the pre-season and rested up a bit a few weeks out from the finals. I think all these different methodologies for training regimes are a tad overdone and I don't see the point of training them hard now, it's not providing any on field results.

[Mofra]

That's just wrong.

What Geelong do is handball in the first instance without caring if the other bloke is in a better spot. Just move it as quickly as you can. Eventually someone will be clear.
Very pertinent observation, considering at 3/4 time Carlton had over 50 more handballs than us. The constant fast movement of ball by Geelong cut us to pieces, and Carlton ovbiously saw what happened and did the same thing.

Question is - how do we stop it? Every team will do it to us from now on unless we combat it.

[1eyedog]

Very pertinent observation, considering at 3/4 time Carlton had over 50 more handballs than us. The constant fast movement of ball by Geelong cut us to pieces, and Carlton ovbiously saw what happened and did the same thing.

Question is - how do we stop it? Every team will do it to us from now on unless we combat it.

What we didn't do yesterday. Apply greater tackling pressure which will also create perceived pressure which creates clangers and critical errors and thus turnovers, especially by hand (which as you state is where we have been smashed). I have not seen us do this since the Hawthorn game.

[Pembleton]

There is validity in the whole training argument so that a team actually peaks during the Finals series. However, I doubt that it states anywhere that you must surrender meekly to a team in 10th posi by being beaten 61 to 2 midway through the 3rd qtr. The whole fatigue thing doesn't gel with me. It is more to it than that.

You are right, although physical fatigue will obviously impact on your mental attitude as well. I think the hard training cycle, coupled with knowledge that the result doesn't actually make any difference to who and where we will play in the finals, is why we put up no resistance. It's bloody hard to push your body through really serious fatigue, when you know the reward is next to nothing.

I'm not saying it is acceptable by the way, they should have done a lot better than they did in the last quarter and a half.

The important question to me is, does anything i saw in that game hurt our premiership chances? Well, practically speaking it makes no difference. Did Carlton expose some new defeciency in us? No, any team that fails to work hard for the whole game is left open to getting run over. The only thing that really worried me is that Dylan Addison got hurt and looks like he won't be back this year.

We are going to be playing Hawthorn at the MCG in a qualifying final in the first week of the finals. The winner gets to host a prelim final. Everything before then is a practice match.

[whythelongface]

You are right, although physical fatigue will obviously impact on your mental attitude as well. I think the hard training cycle, coupled with knowledge that the result doesn't actually make any difference to who and where we will play in the finals, is why we put up no resistance. It's bloody hard to push your body through really serious fatigue, when you know the reward is next to nothing.

I'm not saying it is acceptable by the way, they should have done a lot better than they did in the last quarter and a half.

The important question to me is, does anything i saw in that game hurt our premiership chances? Well, practically speaking it makes no difference. Did Carlton expose some new defeciency in us? No, any team that fails to work hard for the whole game is left open to getting run over. The only thing that really worried me is that Dylan Addison got hurt and looks like he won't be back this year.

We are going to be playing Hawthorn at the MCG in a qualifying final in the first week of the finals. The winner gets to host a prelim final. Everything before then is a practice match.

Good post Pembleton. As with everyone on this board we hope that these are mere glitches in an otherwise impressive season. I have been harping on about the mental aspect, however your first paragraph is succinct and makes alot of sense. Although I still probably think the mental aspect plays a bigger part. It just scares me that we surrender so meekly to what is considered to be an average team with a lot of potential.

The good thing is there is hope. IMO we need to beat the Swans and go into the last 4 weeks of the season with some momentum. That is critical. We cannot afford to limp into the finals series. Whether the last few lacklustre performances are an aberration is hard to tell. Let's hope that the coaching and performance staff sit down with the group and work out what needs to be done to ensure that we don't have a repeat of last year.

[Pembleton]

The good thing is there is hope. IMO we need to beat the Swans and go into the last 4 weeks of the season with some momentum. That is critical. We cannot afford to limp into the finals series. Whether the last few lacklustre performances are an aberration is hard to tell. Let's hope that the coaching and performance staff sit down with the group and work out what needs to be done to ensure that we don't have a repeat of last year.

It's an interesting issue, form leading into the finals. I don't think it is such a big deal.

I think the Pies lost four in a row (including to us in round 22) to end the season in 2002, having locked up a top 4 spot already. Then they went on to miss out on the flag by 9 points.

Adelaide also didn't go into the 97 and 98 finals series flying.

2000 Essendon had their only blip for the year only 2 weeks out form the finals.

2001 Hawthorn limped into the finals after a great start to the season (including getting belted by us at the MCG, in a year when we missed the 8), then went within a couple of goals of making the grand final.

The cats also dropped one of only their 2 games in the last 600 or whatever it is, very close to the finals starting in '07.

NOTE: I know with Essendon and Geelong my examples are of single losses, but compared to how they were performing for the rest of the season, and more importantly, how the performaed in the finals, a single loss is pretty meaningful.

These are all teams that got enough wins on the board early to be secure in their position in the finals, and then probably turned their atention in that direction, and their immediate performaces suffered. The important thing to note though, is that they all got back to playing their best stuff when it mattered. So, i think the idea that you have to go into the finals series playing great footy is a bit of a myth. Form in the late rounds of the season isn't all that indicative to finals form, not when you're talking about teams that know their place in september is safe.

Rather than 'form' as such, i think what we will need to see in the last couple of weeks or so of the season, is that the energy levels of the group are back to where they should be. If that goes along with some crushing victories, well and good. If it doesn't, there is no need to be too downcast.

I'm not saying we have no problems. We are light on for depth, and with Williams Addision West Higgins all either out or doubtful to be 'up and running' for the finals, we have some big concerns. I also think the forward line has started to look dysfunctional. Actually, its starting to look like it is reliant on older middle sized guys that no longer have enough spring in their step to be very effective. Although, that could also be partly attributable to training loads.

FWIW, i was spruiking this same message BEFORE the game against Carlton, so its not a reaction of desperation to explain our poor performance, whilct holding on to hope for the finals. I actually thought that loading up on training and having a down spell for about a month was/is inevitable at around this stage of the season.

Obviously, i could be reading it all wrong, and we have actually hit the wall a bit like last season. Time will tell i guess, but i'm still confident that we'll be there in the last fortnight of september. :)

[whythelongface]

It's all well and good stating all the above in regards to momentum being a bit of a myth, however in our case momentum leads to confidence. This is critical to our finals aspirations. We need to be on a bit of a roll where we play well for at least a couple of games heading into the Finals. Preferably the final two games of the home and away season.

If we end up losing like we have over the last two weeks for the remainder of the season then we can kiss any chance we had goodbye.

[LostDoggy]

Very pertinent observation, considering at 3/4 time Carlton had over 50 more handballs than us. The constant fast movement of ball by Geelong cut us to pieces, and Carlton ovbiously saw what happened and did the same thing.

Question is - how do we stop it? Every team will do it to us from now on unless we combat it.


Manning up would be a start.

[Sockeye Salmon]

It's an interesting issue, form leading into the finals. I don't think it is such a big deal.

I think the Pies lost four in a row (including to us in round 22) to end the season in 2002, having locked up a top 4 spot already. Then they went on to miss out on the flag by 9 points.

Adelaide also didn't go into the 97 and 98 finals series flying.

2000 Essendon had their only blip for the year only 2 weeks out form the finals.

2001 Hawthorn limped into the finals after a great start to the season (including getting belted by us at the MCG, in a year when we missed the 8), then went within a couple of goals of making the grand final.

The cats also dropped one of only their 2 games in the last 600 or whatever it is, very close to the finals starting in '07.


Couple of inches.

Trent Croad hit the post from about 55m out in the last minute.

[BulldogBelle]

Have inserted a couple of paragraphs below from Rohan Connolly's article in The Age from yesterday

Think the team has increased its traning load in recent weeks, and its on field performance has suffered...the club may experience a slump over a month, but you wouldnt expect it to last longer than that...and our performance into the finals, and in the finals should benefit

The other thing to keep in mind is that with the increased physical traning, the players mindset/confidence will also have changed being mindful that they have increased their traning load, hence our performances against the Dee's, Cats + Blues...

Wonder when the Cats are going to increase their traing load!

Better to peak in September rather than in July :rolleyes:



Bring it on....

Sleeping Dogs promise to recapture their hard edge
The Age
Rohan Connolly | July 29, 2008

The Bulldogs are also paying a temporary price for a heavier training load since the mid-season break, an attempt to replenish the fitness that diminishes gradually during the season.

While the club is reluctant to comment publicly, sources say the senior list had been "flogged" since its week off, the aim being to have the team at a physical peak for the finals.

[LostDoggy]

I remember back to the essendon game where we were absolutely run off our feet by the bombers in the 3rd quarter and probably would of lost that game had it not been for the injuries sustained to essendon players.

Point is we seem to struggle with fast sides who move the ball at all costs by hands. We play more of a zone defence than a man on man defence so if the zone is broken with a chain of quick fire handballs or short pin point kicks into the corridor, we are left flat fotted and looking slow. We have seen in the last two weeks and against Essendon, I don't think we can blame fatigue for that game, can we?

[Sockeye Salmon]

I remember back to the essendon game where we were absolutely run off our feet by the bombers in the 3rd quarter and probably would of lost that game had it not been for the injuries sustained to essendon players.

Point is we seem to struggle with fast sides who move the ball at all costs by hands. We play more of a zone defence than a man on man defence so if the zone is broken with a chain of quick fire handballs or short pin point kicks into the corridor, we are left flat fotted and looking slow. We have seen in the last two weeks and against Essendon, I don't think we can blame fatigue for that game, can we?

I don't agree that Essendon only lost that game because of injuries.

[Raw Toast]

thought it might be worth bringing this up - I'm just about out the door on the way to the game, but am hoping that our mid-season fitness work might pay off tonight.

The way I see it, we took a calculated risk with it - basically I think we thought we needed something extra to give us the best chance this year, and so we did some pretty heavy loading. We paid for it a bit, but it might have helped our confidence in the second half last week, and hopefully will be of use tonight. Might be extra useful if the conditions are heavy.

[aker39]

. We paid for it a bit, but it might have helped our confidence in the second half last week, and hopefully will be of use tonight. Might be extra useful if the conditions are heavy.


Good point Raw Toast, I have no doubt that it helped us last week. We ran them off their legs in the 2nd half.

[hujsh]

Good point Raw Toast, I have no doubt that it helped us last week. We ran them off their legs in the 2nd half.

I think it was close to happening again. They looked somewhat tired and under pressure as we continually attacked and pressured in the last quarter.