If we lose next week, is Eade in trouble?

[Dry Rot]

I ask that question from the POV of the Board, not whether we think it is fair or justified.

At the end of last season we had that review and there were all sorts of rumours about Eade and the club's management.

Fast forward to now and the club is desperately seeking a new major sponsor at what is the worst time for the last twenty years. Pretty embarassing that our President has to make a halftime appeal on TV and IIRC Eddie McGuire got us LeasePlan last time around.

If we lose next week and complete a second shocking late season fadeout, will the Board continue to think Eade is an asset for the club? Or will he become an impediment to selling the club to sponsors in their eyes?

[Dogs 24/7]

No, he is fine. He has plenty of work to do but its not his fault.
We completed the review last season and changed plenty of things around with the football department and it will take time to bare fruit. Im as frustrated as I have been in ages but the Cats of a couple of seasons back are a great example of keeping the faith in a coach when the win loss column suggested that he was in trouble.
I would keep the Rocket Man.

[Dry Rot]

Do you think Smorgon and the Board would view it like that?

[LostDoggy]

Look at the players currently available and give me a structure that can win finals? Rocket does a great job with a completely unbalanced list to work with. You just can't get into players heads and re-program their brains, they are who they are. When we have confidence it translates into good skills but when our confidence is shot the mental state affects physical attributes. We haven't forgotten how to kick a footy or give a handball.

Rocket is no hack and simply moving him on will do nothing to improve this teams fortunes. It's a pity that we as members and supporters wouldn't be able to deal with the Club bottoming out and truly rebuilding the list.

[Mantis]

No, he is fine. He has plenty of work to do but its not his fault.
We completed the review last season and changed plenty of things around with the football department and it will take time to bare fruit. Im as frustrated as I have been in ages but the Cats of a couple of seasons back are a great example of keeping the faith in a coach when the win loss column suggested that he was in trouble.
I would keep the Rocket Man.

So what changes then?

Last night was un-acceptable and not through the fault of the 'younger' players. Our experienced players didn't perform under 'finals' pressure and have to wear much of the blame. Now I no many of these players haven't played alot of finals, but they have played enough footy to be able to step their games up when required, they didn't do this last night.

[Dogs 24/7]

Do you think Smorgon and the Board would view it like that?
Yes I do. They will be disappointed no doubt but pragmatic enough with their assessment of the season. Not many teams go from where we landed last year to a flag the following one. The board needs to have a grasp on if we are contending or in a rebuilding phase. Now if it is a contending one then Eade is the right man. If its a rebuilding one then you can count out experienced coaches like Matthews that might be available and you have to go into uncharted waters and take a punt on an inexperienced coach.
We are still looking for a major sponsor so stability within the club is vital in attracting the right partner.

[Dogs 24/7]

So what changes then?

Last night was un-acceptable and not through the fault of the 'younger' players. Our experienced players didn't perform under 'finals' pressure and have to wear much of the blame. Now I no many of these players haven't played alot of finals, but they have played enough footy to be able to step their games up when required, they didn't do this last night.

We start with the trade and draft periods and make some hard calls on players. We up the ante with the player development and education and we look at finding the right sort of support coaches to address the flaws in our game plan.
Thats where I would start. Don't get me wrong I was far from content with last night but I dont think its easily fixed by just moving the coach on.

[GetDimmaBack]

We start with the trade and draft periods and make some hard calls on players. We up the ante with the player development and education and we look at finding the right sort of support coaches to address the flaws in our game plan.
Thats where I would start. Don't get me wrong I was far from content with last night but I dont think its easily fixed by just moving the coach on.

Well said.

We've probably overrated the list a bit, largely because of the great start to the year.
Some big bodies would be handy...

[Mantis]

We start with the trade and draft periods and make some hard calls on players. We up the ante with the player development and education and we look at finding the right sort of support coaches to address the flaws in our game plan.
Thats where I would start. Don't get me wrong I was far from content with last night but I dont think its easily fixed by just moving the coach on.

Totally agree with that, but as you have stated the coach will have to re-shape the list if we are to take the next step.

[DOG GOD]

A start would be to draft footballers, and not athletes. Guys who can KICK the ball BOTH FEET!! and one's with good body size that will only get stronger.

That would be a start.

[LostDoggy]

A start would be to draft footballers, and not athletes. Guys who can KICK the ball BOTH FEET!! and one's with good body size that will only get stronger.

That would be a start.
:rolleyes:
You mean an athlete like Buddy Franklin who has only got a left foot? Make up your mind-you want good size or a 5ft footballer?

Anyway whats that got to do with whether Eade should be under pressure?

[GVGjr]

A start would be to draft footballers, and not athletes. Guys who can KICK the ball BOTH FEET!! and one's with good body size that will only get stronger.

That would be a start.

Have you just described Cooney and Griffen?

I agree that you can strike a balance between footy smarts and athletic types rather than just focus on the latter. Guy O'Keefe is a good example. He isn't overly quick but has a fair bit of footy nous and hopefully that will serve him well in the next few seasons.
Ward strikes me as being more of a footballer who is athletically gifted rather than the other way around. Decision making is an underrated skill in my opinion.

Easton Wood is very much the athlete who will be shaped into a footballer but I have been very pleased with his progress this season.

[Desipura]

A start would be to draft footballers, and not athletes. Guys who can KICK the ball BOTH FEET!! and one's with good body size that will only get stronger.

That would be a start.
I think he means Ray who played soccer as a junior. He does not have size and his left foot kick 20 metres out from goal that fell well short in the 1st qtr. The loopy handballs that put his teammates under pressure was proof of a footballer who does not read the play as well as a natural footballer.
Minson on the other hand is a big bodied player who lacks agility for mine along with footy smarts.
Getting the balance right is the challenging part

[LostDoggy]

-Eagleton and West must retire
-Ray to be traded
-No Lovett style recruits. We need big strong hard running midfielders (in the draft).
-Ward,OKeefe etc etc have to be fast tracked next year. Even if it means Boyd plays back pocket and takes Tim Callans place.
-Grant,Everitt,Boumann and Williams need massive pre-seasons. We will make up the numbers until we get size in the forward line.
-Next year has to be Aker's,Welshs and maybe Johnson's last yr.
-Eade- i have been calling for him to be replaced for 3 yrs. I dont rate his unaccountable, basketball , run up and down the ground style. I think we need a fresh start.
-If we dont be careful and fast track more kids, we will be sitting here in 3yrs thinking Hargraves,Gilbee,Murphy,Lake,Gia,Morris,Hahn etc are past it.

[The Pie Man]

Probably not, as in four years he's taken a bottom 4 side to top 4, though Eade may start to question what else he can get out of the group. On the past two months evidence, we're not a top 4 side yet, and while I hope we make this years prelim, it would be a stretch to suggest we'd match that in 09

[bornadog]

With the players available, Eade has done a great job and should not be under pressure, in trouble as the thread asks. We have had a top four postion and playing at least two finals.

The structure of the team is completely wrong and I believe the club has been trying to address this with the drafting of Everitt, Grant, Boumann, Mulligan and at minimum next year Cordy and have been unlucky with Williams. It takes time to devlop these big guys.

Once again the trade and drafting will be vital for the success in the next few years.

[Dry Rot]

With the players available, Eade has done a great job and should not be under pressure, in trouble as the thread asks. We have had a top four postion and playing at least two finals.



I suppose I'm asking not whether Eade should be under pressure but rather whether he will be. Dunno that the club's management was real happy with him at the end of last season NB Smorgon.

I suppose I'm also wondering if this comes down to politics and personalities, not reason and facts.

[LostDoggy]

Leigh Matthews anyone? Teach the kids about hard tough footy

[GVGjr]

I suppose I'm asking not whether Eade should be under pressure but rather whether he will be. Dunno that the club's management was real happy with him at the end of last season NB Smorgon.
I suppose I'm also wondering if this comes down to politics and personalities, not reason and facts.

Almost impossible for us to speculate on though. What the likes of Smorgon, Rose and Eade say in front of the media and what is happening behind the scenes could be two very different things but we aren't privy to it.
The Smorgon, Rose and Eade differences of opinions last year have all been sorted out so they shouldn't come into play.

My guess is that he has hit most if not all of the KPI's that the club would have put in place.

[LostDoggy]

-Eagleton and West must retire
-Ray to be traded
-No Lovett style recruits. We need big strong hard running midfielders (in the draft).
-Ward,OKeefe etc etc have to be fast tracked next year. Even if it means Boyd plays back pocket and takes Tim Callans place.
-Grant,Everitt,Boumann and Williams need massive pre-seasons. We will make up the numbers until we get size in the forward line.
-Next year has to be Aker's,Welshs and maybe Johnson's last yr.
-Eade- i have been calling for him to be replaced for 3 yrs. I dont rate his unaccountable, basketball , run up and down the ground style. I think we need a fresh start.
-If we dont be careful and fast track more kids, we will be sitting here in 3yrs thinking Hargraves,Gilbee,Murphy,Lake,Gia,Morris,Hahn etc are past it.

Spot on Jerry
But I think you are being a little kind

After watching the crap that was served up last night I go on record and state the following

Rodney Eade - terminate his contact after the B&F
Scott West - retire with dignity.
Nahtan Eagleton - retire
Tim Callan - delist ( not up to afl level)
Scott Welsh - trade
Farren Ray - trade
Tom Williams - trade (15 games in four years)

The following players to be traded to secure a CHF and CHB
Adam Cooney
Mathew Boyd
Daniel Giansiracusa

and as Jerry stated fast track the kids instead of playing the old stagers
because we pay good money to watch them and should not settle for MEDIOCRITY

[bornadog]

Leigh Matthews anyone? Teach the kids about hard tough footy

No Thanks, bad communicator. The man to teach a young team is Mark Williams.

[The Pie Man]

-Eagleton and West must retire
-Ray to be traded
-No Lovett style recruits. We need big strong hard running midfielders (in the draft).
-Ward,OKeefe etc etc have to be fast tracked next year. Even if it means Boyd plays back pocket and takes Tim Callans place.
-Grant,Everitt,Boumann and Williams need massive pre-seasons. We will make up the numbers until we get size in the forward line.
-Next year has to be Aker's,Welshs and maybe Johnson's last yr.
-Eade- i have been calling for him to be replaced for 3 yrs. I dont rate his unaccountable, basketball , run up and down the ground style. I think we need a fresh start.
-If we dont be careful and fast track more kids, we will be sitting here in 3yrs thinking Hargraves,Gilbee,Murphy,Lake,Gia,Morris,Hahn etc are past it.

I agree with most of the below, especially the pre-season's for those 4 kids.

Eade on the other hand has to be given more time, I'd rather be where we are now than 2004. Our contested footy was terrific early in the year, it's gone missing now sure, but is that Eade's fault?

I think Lovett could add value.

[hujsh]

-Eagleton and West must retire
-Ray to be traded
-No Lovett style recruits. We need big strong hard running midfielders (in the draft).
-Ward,OKeefe etc etc have to be fast tracked next year. Even if it means Boyd plays back pocket and takes Tim Callans place.
-Grant,Everitt,Boumann and Williams need massive pre-seasons. We will make up the numbers until we get size in the forward line.
-Next year has to be Aker's,Welshs and maybe Johnson's last yr.
-Eade- i have been calling for him to be replaced for 3 yrs. I dont rate his unaccountable, basketball , run up and down the ground style. I think we need a fresh start.
-If we dont be careful and fast track more kids, we will be sitting here in 3yrs thinking Hargraves,Gilbee,Murphy,Lake,Gia,Morris,Hahn etc are past it.

Plan sounds similar to what Hawthorn did. You would trade those 7 above players to the GC for their picks?

[LostDoggy]

because we pay good money to watch them and should not settle for MEDIOCRITY

Should have had a bet on this old pearler to come out. What a stupid saying.

[The Underdog]

Spot on Jerry
But I think you are being a little kind

After watching the crap that was served up last night I go on record and state the following

Rodney Eade - terminate his contact after the B&F
Scott West - retire with dignity.
Nahtan Eagleton - retire
Tim Callan - delist ( not up to afl level)
Scott Welsh - trade
Farren Ray - trade
Tom Williams - trade (15 games in four years)

The following players to be traded to secure a CHF and CHB
Adam Cooney
Mathew Boyd
Daniel Giansiracusa

and as Jerry stated fast track the kids instead of playing the old stagers
because we pay good money to watch them and should not settle for MEDIOCRITY

Is this where metaphorical streamers and balloons drop from the ceiling and we all blow party whistles and pop party poppers to celebrate the use of the term mediocrity finally popping up in an unironic context.

A couple of points.
You want to trade for a CHB but trade Tom Williams to achieve that aim. I understand he is injured constantly but I think we're likely to get under the odds for him at this point and I think he's worth perservering with for another year. He has too much potential to throw away now. At least wait for GC to come knocking
You want to trade Cooney and get a CHF. Great thought but who's available and who the hell gets the ball to him when he shows up to save the day. Sure Cooney was rubbish last night but he's been clearly our no 1 midfielder all year, he is an elite talent who is just starting to flourish and we have nobody who can take his place and give us what he can. You'd be getting ripped off by Peter to pay Paul the interest on a loan then have him kick the crap out of you.
I agree we have to make some hard calls on guys like Eagleton and Ray and possibly try and trade Boydy while he has currency. Welsh would be a delist as noone would trade for him, but I think he'll get another year to be honest (He's contracted for it).

Eade has led us to finals 2 out of 4 years and we are in a much better position than we were 5 years ago despite the chicken littleness abounding. We aren't quite talented enough to win a premiership but why you would sack a coach who got you to 3rd on the ladder in the season is beyond me, especially with what he had available on the park last night.

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe some of the stuff I am reading here:eek:

Eade has done an amazing job with a team that has no ff and only one kpp. The players are all introverts who withdraw when under pressure.

I rememer he said a couple of years ago, that the teams that win the Flag have been around the mark for a few years. Think Sydney, West Coast and Geelong (aside from 2006). We have made progress this year, we made the finals in 2006 won one and lost one, made top four this year, lost the first one - hopefully will win next week and play off again in a preliminary final. Next year I hope we will make further progressw.

Footscray has a history of sacking coaches - it has to stop and allow us some stability - I'm for Rocket!!!!

[Go_Dogs]

-Eagleton and West must retire
-Ray to be traded
-No Lovett style recruits. We need big strong hard running midfielders (in the draft).
-Ward,OKeefe etc etc have to be fast tracked next year. Even if it means Boyd plays back pocket and takes Tim Callans place.
-Grant,Everitt,Boumann and Williams need massive pre-seasons. We will make up the numbers until we get size in the forward line.
-Next year has to be Aker's,Welshs and maybe Johnson's last yr.
-Eade- i have been calling for him to be replaced for 3 yrs. I dont rate his unaccountable, basketball , run up and down the ground style. I think we need a fresh start.
-If we dont be careful and fast track more kids, we will be sitting here in 3yrs thinking Hargraves,Gilbee,Murphy,Lake,Gia,Morris,Hahn etc are past it.

I tend to agree with everything you have said, except for moving on Eade. I still feel he in the best man for the job at this stage, and no one else who is available really gets me excited.

Everything else you have said is spot on.

I'd love a Shannon Hurn type this year in the draft.

[hujsh]

Spot on Jerry
But I think you are being a little kind

After watching the crap that was served up last night I go on record and state the following

Rodney Eade - terminate his contact after the B&F
Scott West - retire with dignity.
Nahtan Eagleton - retire
Tim Callan - delist ( not up to afl level)
Scott Welsh - trade
Farren Ray - trade
Tom Williams - trade (15 games in four years)

The following players to be traded to secure a CHF and CHB
Adam Cooney
Mathew Boyd
Daniel Giansiracusa

and as Jerry stated fast track the kids instead of playing the old stagers
because we pay good money to watch them and should not settle for MEDIOCRITY

And we come dead last lose many members and pick 4 for our efforts

[gohardorgohome]

Can those who have made the "Sack Eade" comments after last nights performance please state exactly what he did incorrect tactically last night.

I personally felt that Harbrow should have tagged Rioli, Aker is a forward an part time midfielder at stoppages once the game as been going for a while. Other than that I felt our players let themselves down rather than the coach.

The Hawks won the contested ball in the midfield and also in our forward line. This caused our guys to poorly execute skills with percieved pressure. Hodge and some of the Hawthorn tall defenders took marks when we played to long kicks to the hot spot. We have no top class key forward, so this mean our only option was to do the old chip kicks tactic.

[Mantis]

Can those who have made the "Sack Eade" comments after last nights performance please state exactly what he did incorrect tactically last night.

I personally felt that Harbrow should have tagged Rioli, Aker is a forward an part time midfielder at stoppages once the game as been going for a while. Other than that I felt our players let themselves down rather than the coach.

Harbrow is a forward, not a defender. We did not pick a team that contained enough defender's. Our game plan was to play offensive football, we couldn't get our hands on the ball and therefore we didn't have the cattle down back to compete.

[gohardorgohome]

Harbrow is a forward, not a defender. We did not pick a team that contained enough defender's. Our game plan was to play offensive football, we couldn't get our hands on the ball and therefore we didn't have the cattle down back to compete.

Harbrow is a forward that does not kick a lot of goals but gives great defensive pressure. I would prefer him on a quick young player like Rioli. Akers is a forward that does give a certain level of defensive pressure and does kick goals.

[LostDoggy]

The question that should be asked is are we in a better position now compared to when he took over. Answer Yes. IIRC when he came in we were 15th. The proceeding years after he took over if I am right are 9th, 6th, 13th and no lower than 5th this year.

Did last night hurt with out doubt. Should we have a knee jerk reaction to it hell no. You don't hire a bloke on one result but we shouldn't fire a guy for the same reason. The season is not over so lets not get ahead of ourselves. We still have next week thanks to a great effort by the team and couching staff. If we win next week we are 2 wins off a premiership. Te glass is half full people Brisbane won their 2nd flag after losing to Collingwood at the MCG so its not impossible.

[Mantis]

Harbrow is a forward that does not kick a lot of goals but gives great defensive pressure. I would prefer him on a quick young player like Rioli. Akers is a forward that does give a certain level of defensive pressure and does kick goals.

Aker playing on Rioli was a terrible move, agree on that, when Aker went forward he gave us a spark which wasn't there previously. Personally I thought Callan should have played on Rioli and Everitt or Tiller (one had to play) should have played on Williams.

[gohardorgohome]

Aker playing on Rioli was a terrible move, agree on that, when Aker went forward he gave us a spark which wasn't there previously. Personally I thought Callan should have played on Rioli and Everitt or Tiller (one had to play) should have played on Williams.

Who would you not play if one of Tiller or Everitt were to play. I have little confidence in Tilller's disposal. Everitt has not played well all year. I dont really think the defenders that were out there went too bad in the circumstances.

[Mantis]

Who would you not play if one of Tiller or Everitt were to play. I have little confidence in Tilller's disposal. Everitt has not played well all year. I dont really think the defenders that were out there went too bad in the circumstances.

I wouldn't have played Higgins.

[LostDoggy]

The things Eade did wrong tactically he has been doing for the last 8 weeks. He started playing Minson out of the goal square. He had us trying to play through the centre corridor when it was our run and carry down the wings AND DELIVERY TO LEADING FORWARDS that was winning games, not bombing it into the goal square.
Starting Aka on Rioli on a half back flank was ridiculous. Keeping him there for half a game was utter stupidity.
Not once did he change the way we were playing and made them perservere with the centre corridor. How many time did we ignore loose players on the wing for a player under pressure in the centre?
He also never once tried to combat Hawthorns tactic at centre bounces when they dragged all our backs bar one onto the edge of the square leaving a forward one out in the 50. Why not try and use that to our advantage? Have all those blokes sprint into the middle at the bounce and lock the ball in. With the extra numbers we then have you can apply more pressure on their midfield who continually kicked it straight over the heads of these players to the one on one contest. Very clever by Clarkson as it effectively cut 5 or 6 players out of our side. It might have been ugly but you are there to win a game of football.

Eade, master tactician, give me a break.

[craigsahibee]

:rolleyes:
You mean an athlete like Buddy Franklin who has only got a left foot? Make up your mind-you want good size or a 5ft footballer?

Anyway whats that got to do with whether Eade should be under pressure?

We need guys who can play on instinct and not be weighed down with instructions. Apart from Griff, no one else was prepared to take them on. Footballers win football games not 10,000m runners.

[Stefcep]

Eade's job is safe for one more season. Beyond that it depends on where we end up in 2009. But I have never liked Eade's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan. How many times do you see this and the player with the ball has no-one to give it to, so he gets tackled or goes backwards to get out of trouble. When Griffen goes for his runs, it looks great, but how many times has he been caught holding the ball or the final kick went to no-one in particular because his run put all the forwards out of position.

Eagleton will play one more season. There is no other player on the list that can nail a goal on the run from 50+ out. Sure, he doesn't win the hard balls gets like Cross but he doesn't do the 25 metre cream puff kicks that Cross does, on the two times a game that he actually kicks the ball. Cross really needs to work on his kicking because atm he's only 50% the damaging player that he could be.

Johnson should relinquish his captaincy and play his last season next year without that responsibility.

Ray should be traded, his kicking is not penetrating enough, and he too often loses in 50-50 balls.

Tim Callan I agree is not upto afl standard.

West won't get another season.

Murphy's build is a problem, he is injury prone. One more season then lets see.

Cooney is probably the only "superstar" we have. Must be kept, but he needs to now take on the responsiblity of being in the leadership group.

Gia and Boyd should be kept for two more season.

The "spine" is the problem. Lake at FB is ok but does too many really dumb things when he has possession of the ball. There is no real CHB CHF or FF. It amazes me that in 2 decades we have not been able to recruit a gun CHF or FF when EVERY other club has had at least one gun forward. Minno is playing from the goal square because Eade is trying to make him the strong tall forward target we lack. Problem is he's a great athlete just not a skilled footballer to play that role. But what's the alternative? Johnson's strength was his abilty to win and hold contested marks, which he hasn't done this year. Questions need to be asked of the recruting department.

i think last night was a reality check. We were never the third best side in the comp. I can recall 5- 6 games in the first 15 wins that could have easily gone either way but the other side kicked themselves out of it, or that we won by playing only 2 or 3 quarters well. Thats not what the third best team in the comp does. Thats what the 6-7 best team does.

Against Sydney: well, we beat em twice. BUT first win was by playing 2 and half good quarters in the middle of the team-destabilising Hall controversy, second win when Goodes didn't play (he kicked 8 the next week). We'll win by 5 points.

[craigsahibee]

Eade's job is safe for one more season. Beyond that it depends on where we end up in 2009. But I have never liked Eade's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan. How many times do you see this and the player with the ball has no-one to give it to, so he gets tackled or goes backwards to get out of trouble. When Griffen goes for his runs, it looks great, but how many times has he been caught holding the ball or the final kick went to no-one in particular because his run put all the forwards out of position.

Eagleton will play one more season. There is no other player on the list that can nail a goal on the run from 50+ out. Sure, he doesn't win the hard balls gets like Cross but he doesn't do the 25 metre cream puff kicks that Cross does, on the two times a game that he actually kicks the ball. Cross really needs to work on his kicking because atm he's only 50% the damaging player that he could be.

Johnson should relinquish his captaincy and play his last season next year without that responsibility.

Ray should be traded, his kicking is not penetrating enough, and he too often loses in 50-50 balls.

Tim Callan I agree is not upto afl standard.

West won't get another season.

Murphy's build is a problem, he is injury prone. One more season then lets see.

Cooney is probably the only "superstar" we have. Must be kept, but he needs to now take on the responsiblity of being in the leadership group.

Gia and Boyd should be kept for two more season.

The "spine" is the problem. Lake at FB is ok but does too many really dumb things when he has possession of the ball. There is no real CHB CHF or FF. It amazes me that in 2 decades we have not been able to recruit a gun CHF or FF when EVERY other club has had at least one gun forward. Questions need to be asked of the recruting department.

i think last night was a reality check. We were never the third best side in the comp. I can recall 5- 6 games in the first 15 wins that could have easily gone either way but the other side kicked themselves out of it, or that we won by playing only 2 or 3 quarters well. Thats not what the third best team in the comp does. Thats what the 6-7 best team does.

Against Sydney: well, we beat em twice. BUT first win was by playing 2 and half good quarters in the middle of the team-destabilising Hall controversy, second win when Goodes didn't play (he kicked 8 the next week). We'll win by 5 points.

Does the name Chris Grant ring a bell?

[Dry Rot]

The things Eade did wrong tactically he has been doing for the last 8 weeks. He started playing Minson out of the goal square. He had us trying to play through the centre corridor when it was our run and carry down the wings AND DELIVERY TO LEADING FORWARDS that was winning games, not bombing it into the goal square.


If we do that against the swans, Barry, Bolton and friends will eat us alive.

[LostDoggy]

... There is no other player on the list that can nail a goal on the run from 50+ out. ...

Gilbee seems like a good kick.

[Stefcep]

I think Grant was a fantastic player particularly in 96-97, but I am thinking more of a Locket, LLoyd, to a lesser extent Carey out an out goal-kickers that did that could kick 60+ goals a season consistently for 5-8 seasons. Grant played so many different roles in his career and looking back the guy had to shoulder so much key-position responsiblity. One key forward in 20 years is poor. It highlights that there was no key forward support alongside him

[hujsh]

Eade's job is safe for one more season. Beyond that it depends on where we end up in 2009. But I have never liked Eade's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan. How many times do you see this and the player with the ball has no-one to give it to, so he gets tackled or goes backwards to get out of trouble. When Griffen goes for his runs, it looks great, but how many times has he been caught holding the ball or the final kick went to no-one in particular because his run put all the forwards out of position.

Eagleton will play one more season. There is no other player on the list that can nail a goal on the run from 50+ out. Sure, he doesn't win the hard balls gets like Cross but he doesn't do the 25 metre cream puff kicks that Cross does, on the two times a game that he actually kicks the ball. Cross really needs to work on his kicking because atm he's only 50% the damaging player that he could be.

Johnson should relinquish his captaincy and play his last season next year without that responsibility.

Ray should be traded, his kicking is not penetrating enough, and he too often loses in 50-50 balls.

Tim Callan I agree is not upto afl standard.

West won't get another season.

Murphy's build is a problem, he is injury prone. One more season then lets see.

Cooney is probably the only "superstar" we have. Must be kept, but he needs to now take on the responsiblity of being in the leadership group.

Gia and Boyd should be kept for two more season.

The "spine" is the problem. Lake at FB is ok but does too many really dumb things when he has possession of the ball. There is no real CHB CHF or FF. It amazes me that in 2 decades we have not been able to recruit a gun CHF or FF when EVERY other club has had at least one gun forward. Minno is playing from the goal square because Eade is trying to make him the strong tall forward target we lack. Problem is he's a great athlete just not a skilled footballer to play that role. But what's the alternative? Johnson's strength was his abilty to win and hold contested marks, which he hasn't done this year. Questions need to be asked of the recruting department.

i think last night was a reality check. We were never the third best side in the comp. I can recall 5- 6 games in the first 15 wins that could have easily gone either way but the other side kicked themselves out of it, or that we won by playing only 2 or 3 quarters well. Thats not what the third best team in the comp does. Thats what the 6-7 best team does.

Against Sydney: well, we beat em twice. BUT first win was by playing 2 and half good quarters in the middle of the team-destabilising Hall controversy, second win when Goodes didn't play (he kicked 8 the next week). We'll win by 5 points.

He's not an athlete, He's a monster. As ruckmen often are

[Stefcep]

Gilbee seems like a good kick.


Gilbee is the straightest kick in the AFL and has football smarts. But he's needed to start up the move from the back. Most of the time. A bit like Guy Mckenna used to do at WCE. Lake frankly is just too dumb to do it. I still think we need Eagleton hovering outside the 50 meter arc beacsue there is no other forward that can score from 50+ in general play as well as he does.

[western cookie]

Eades safe, simple as that, unless hes as fed up of performances like that that he resigns.
Ray, Callan and Eagleton have to go if only for my sanity.
I would agree with Johnno relenquishing the captaincy to concentrate on playing if we had someone capable to take over.(please no-one bring up Gia as our next skipper!)
I am probably Williams biggest fan, possibly deluded, but if he cant stand up we have to look elsewhere.
Play Ward, Reid, Grant? for extended periods, cant possibly go any worse.
08 hasnt been a total waste, we will win next week, but i did want more.

[Stefcep]

Eades safe, simple as that, unless hes as fed up of performances like that that he resigns.
Ray, Callan and Eagleton have to go if only for my sanity.
I would agree with Johnno relenquishing the captaincy to concentrate on playing if we had someone capable to take over.(please no-one bring up Gia as our next skipper!)
I am probably Williams biggest fan, possibly deluded, but if he cant stand up we have to look elsewhere.
Play Ward, Reid, Grant? for extended periods, cant possibly go any worse.
08 hasnt been a total waste, we will win next week, but i did want more.

Agree that the coach is not the problem Its the lack of key position personnel, particularly up forward.

i think the time is right for Cooney to take on more leadership responsiblity, and one way to do this is to give him the captaincy next season.

Why exactly do you think eagleton should go and who would replace him in his role?

08 has not been a waste for me, I've enjoyed the ride, the team exceeded my expectations given the playing list. Its no coincidence that so many interstate sides have won premierships in the past 10 years: you need money, 40,000 plus members, high draft picks, the option to get preference picks for the best players in the state like PA, WCE, BL, Sydeny, we did well with what we had.

[FrediKanoute]

In the cold light of day, after I've sobered up and calmed down, the game last night was really about a team who has contested the last 3 finals series against a team who has made the finals for the first time. We had so many first time finals players, some of whom are key players for us....Murphy, Hahn, Harbrow, Higgins, Hill, (lots of H's). They will be better for the experience.

We were always going to struggle in that game, because of our lack of experience. What we really needed was for guys like Gia and Johnno to put away those early goals, because that is what you need your experienced guys doing. We also should have started Aka in the forward line. The minute he went forward he made things happen so as far as final's f*ckups go it right up there with Smith on Robram and Libba on McLeod!

Finals are all about which team settles best and we simply took half a game to settle. The second half was actually not a bad performance, we kept pace with the Hawks and weren't blown away. We also need to get back to doing the team things whcih we were doing in the early part of the year. The tackling, the shepherding, the attack on the footy and supporting each other all need to come back fast.

Playing the Swans is a good thing for us. They are experts at winning ugly, but we have beaten them twice this season away from Victoria. We match up pretty well against them and for mine they are beatable, but we have to play good hard contested footy!

[hujsh]

The man takes us to 3rd and people are talking of sacking him. At the start of the year everyone would have said 6th would be excellent but instead we get our first top 4 placing since 1998. Is that not enough? Or do you 'not accept mediocrity:rolleyes:'

[Happy Days]

Murphy's build is a problem, he is injury prone. One more season then lets see.


Hmmmm...or not.

The man is pushing for AA selection after coming off a phenominal season. Just because he has one bad game doesn't mean we throw him overboard.

[The Underdog]

Hmmmm...or not.

The man is pushing for AA selection after coming off a phenominal season. Just because he has one bad game doesn't mean we throw him overboard.

Agree 100%. The guy has great skills is strong overhead and loves the club. He shouldn't even be considered as a player who is dispensable. If we find a dangerous tall forward imagine how much more dangerous Murph would be alongside him. And the knee aside, his injury history isn' that bad. Sure he carries a few but he doesn't miss a lot of games.

[Stefcep]

Hmmmm...or not.

The man is pushing for AA selection after coming off a phenominal season. Just because he has one bad game doesn't mean we throw him overboard.

He's a suberb talent, when he's fully fit and has space. For me, everytime he goes up for a mark and lands I have my heart in my mouth beacsue he just looks physically fragile. I have doubts baout his longevity to play at full fitness. In this way he reminds me of James Hird

[GVGjr]

The man takes us to 3rd and people are talking of sacking him. At the start of the year everyone would have said 6th would be excellent but instead we get our first top 4 placing since 1998. Is that not enough? Or do you 'not accept mediocrity:rolleyes:'

But really how many from the forum have actually called for his head? Your not in the minority of people supporting him.
Nobody was happy with last nights result but I think Eade is getting more than a fair go.
Eade flagged 6 weeks ago that he was planning to tackle the Hawks and yet for a variety of reason it unraveled in a big way. That has obviously ticked off a few people but all-in-all I think he has the vast majority of people still supporting him.

[Stefcep]

In the cold light of day, after I've sobered up and calmed down, the game last night was really about a team who has contested the last 3 finals series against a team who has made the finals for the first time. We had so many first time finals players, some of whom are key players for us....Murphy, Hahn, Harbrow, Higgins, Hill, (lots of H's). They will be better for the experience.

We were always going to struggle in that game, because of our lack of experience. What we really needed was for guys like Gia and Johnno to put away those early goals, because that is what you need your experienced guys doing. We also should have started Aka in the forward line. The minute he went forward he made things happen so as far as final's f*ckups go it right up there with Smith on Robram and Libba on McLeod!

Finals are all about which team settles best and we simply took half a game to settle. The second half was actually not a bad performance, we kept pace with the Hawks and weren't blown away. We also need to get back to doing the team things whcih we were doing in the early part of the year. The tackling, the shepherding, the attack on the footy and supporting each other all need to come back fast.

Playing the Swans is a good thing for us. They are experts at winning ugly, but we have beaten them twice this season away from Victoria. We match up pretty well against them and for mine they are beatable, but we have to play good hard contested footy!

Its amazing the number of times that the trend for a game is set in the first 10 minutes of play. Johno and Gia's early misses were absolutely vital in the context of giving the younger players confidence and dampening that of the Hawkes. Secondly the early 50-50 balls-if you win them and get a clean possession means so much to what eventuates later

[hujsh]

Agree that the coach is not the problem Its the lack of key position personnel, particularly up forward.

i think the time is right for Cooney to take on more leadership responsiblity, and one way to do this is to give him the captaincy next season.

Why exactly do you think eagleton should go and who would replace him in his role?

08 has not been a waste for me, I've enjoyed the ride, the team exceeded my expectations given the playing list. Its no coincidence that so many interstate sides have won premierships in the past 10 years: you need money, 40,000 plus members, high draft picks, the option to get preference picks for the best players in the state like PA, WCE, BL, Sydeny, we did well with what we had.

Hill for sure

[The Underdog]

Gilbee is the straightest kick in the AFL and has football smarts. But he's needed to start up the move from the back. Most of the time. A bit like Guy Mckenna used to do at WCE. Lake frankly is just too dumb to do it. I still think we need Eagleton hovering outside the 50 meter arc beacsue there is no other forward that can score from 50+ in general play as well as he does.

To be honest if you want another guy who can kick a goal from 50 on the run try Cooney, Griffen, or Akermanis, aside from Gilbee. Eagle hasn't kicked one for a good long while now and he isn't doing a lot on the positive side of the ledger either apart from hovering around the 50.

[hujsh]

But really how many from the forum have actually called for his head? Your not in the minority of people supporting him.
Nobody was happy with last nights result but I think Eade is getting more than a fair go.
Eade flagged 6 weeks ago that he was planning to tackle the Hawks and yet for a variety of reason it unraveled in a big way. That has obviously ticked off a few people but all-in-all I think he has the vast majority of people still supporting him.

People may not have said it yet but slowly the jungle drums seem to be beating. You are right though.

[Stefcep]

But really how many from the forum have actually called for his head? Your not in the minority of people supporting him.
Nobody was happy with last nights result but I think Eade is getting more than a fair go.
Eade flagged 6 weeks ago that he was planning to tackle the Hawks and yet for a variety of reason it unraveled in a big way. That has obviously ticked off a few people but all-in-all I think he has the vast majority of people still supporting him.

Eade's game plan was fine and could not be anything else other than to cut the supply to Buddy and Roughhead, Rioli, etc. The execution from the midfield players was bad, not enough contested`ball wins, not enough clean takes under pressure, the Hawks midfiled and half back line did the damage.

[Stefcep]

To be honest if you want another guy who can kick a goal from 50 on the run try Cooney, Griffen, or Akermanis, aside from Gilbee. Eagle hasn't kicked one for a good long while now and he isn't doing a lot on the positive side of the ledger either apart from hovering around the 50.

Maybe. Akers goals are more likely to come from inside 50these days, i don't remember the least time i saw Cooney kick a goal on the run from 50 out, not even sure he can make the distance often enough, and Grif isn't really an opportunist goal kicker, more of a play maker.

Just my opinion, I still thing Eagle has one more season.

having said that i think Cross needs to work on his kicking over the pre-season.

[Sedat]

In the cold light of day, after I've sobered up and calmed down, the game last night was really about a team who has contested the last 3 finals series against a team who has made the finals for the first time.
It was only Hawthorn's 2nd finals series in a row. We've played in as many finals since 2006 as they have so most of our players have at least as much finals experience as their Hawthorn counterparts. And Hawthorn didn't ewactly cover themselves in glory last September - one very lucky Buddy inspired win against Adelaide followed by a woeful performance against North. No we were just insipid, plain and simple.

[LostDoggy]

We need guys who can play on instinct and not be weighed down with instructions. Apart from Griff, no one else was prepared to take them on. Footballers win football games not 10,000m runners.
When have we picked up a 10000m runner?
You want a pure footballer in the Mark McGough mould?

[Mantis]

having said that i think Cross needs to work on his kicking over the pre-season.

He work's on it every pre-season. He is a maniac on the track and would spend more time than anyone working on his kicking, it just hasn't got any better.

[Stefcep]

He work's on it every pre-season. He is a maniac on the track and would spend more time than anyone working on his kicking, it just hasn't got any better.
Then he's gotta try something different, get the advice of a kicking coach. He could be one of the most damaging players in the AFL if he reduced his handballs by 50% and increased the number if kicks over 40 metres by 50 %

[LostDoggy]

Maybe. Akers goals are more likely to come from inside 50these days, i don't remember the least time i saw Cooney kick a goal on the run from 50 out, not even sure he can make the distance often enough, and Grif isn't really an opportunist goal kicker, more of a play maker.

Just my opinion, I still thing Eagle has one more season.

having said that i think Cross needs to work on his kicking over the pre-season.

I'm sure it was only a couple of weeks ago that Cooney kicked one from about 55 whilst running full tilt.

[Go_Dogs]

Then he's gotta try something different, get the advice of a kicking coach. He could be one of the most damaging players in the AFL if he reduced his handballs by 50% and increased the number if kicks over 40 metres by 50 %

What I would do with Cross is have him spend a couple of hours every day just doing goal kicking. He needs to add another string to his bow, and he has shown himself to be an excellent contested mark, and someone who will attack every contest hard. I think we could get some good use out of him rotating through the forward line more often - just needs to get some confidence in his ability to kick a goal.

FWIW, Cross is usually fairly good at putting a well weighted ball into space for a forward. The last few weeks he has done this on a couple of occasions and made it look good.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I've got a bit of catching up to go but there is a bit in this thread that is total bollocks, so I'll respond to them one at a time (by no means am I saying that only the posts I'm responding to are bollocks because there are too many to reply to them all).



A start would be to draft footballers, and not athletes.

Lance Franklin and Cameron Wight are athletes.
Greg Williams and Damian Peverill are footballers.

I suggest we're better off with good players rather than only considering them because of their type.

[LostDoggy]

I'm sure it was only a couple of weeks ago that Cooney kicked one from about 55 whilst running full tilt.

Griffen anyone?

[Sockeye Salmon]

After watching the crap that was served up last night I go on record and state the following

Rodney Eade - terminate his contact after the B&F
Scott West - retire with dignity.
Nahtan Eagleton - retire
Tim Callan - delist ( not up to afl level)
Scott Welsh - trade
Farren Ray - trade
Tom Williams - trade (15 games in four years)

The following players to be traded to secure a CHF and CHB
Adam Cooney
Mathew Boyd
Daniel Giansiracusa

and as Jerry stated fast track the kids instead of playing the old stagers
because we pay good money to watch them and should not settle for MEDIOCRITY

Eade - sack the coach who has led us to within half a game of our winningest season ever? If we win this week Eade will have our 2nd highest winning ratio as a coach in our history (except for those who only coached a few games that only TCD remembers).

West - in his last game, on one leg, he had 18 touches in 60% game time. If his knee is OK, he goes around again, if it's not, he doesn't.

Eagleton - I'm no Eagle fan but what would be gained by forcing him to retire? Pick up a kid with pick 78 and delist him after 2 years? He lives or dies next year on merit - if he deserves a game he plays, if he doesn't he plays VFL. Next year would probably see him out you would think.

Callan - perhaps. Worth another year and would be contracted anyway.

Welsh - you can't trade a 29 yo at his 3rd club. Besides, he's contracted and is a forward who can mark - we're not exactly snowed under by them.

Ray - maybe. Might not have a choice if he walks (he put off contract talks, not us).

Williams - has played more senior games at his age than Lake had. I'm sure he's just as frustrated as the rest of us but we're desperate for tall defenders and we finally get a good one and you want to piss him off because he got hurt?


Anyone can be traded if the deals good enough, of course, but realistically you don't trade very good players, it's just dumb.

[hujsh]

Williams - has played more senior games at his age than Lake had. I'm sure he's just as frustrated as the rest of us but we're desperate for tall defenders and we finally get a good one and you want to piss him off because he got hurt?



Really? That's surprising

[Mantis]

Eagleton - I'm no Eagle fan but what would be gained by forcing him to retire? Pick up a kid with pick 78 and delist him after 2 years? He lives or dies next year on merit - if he deserves a game he plays, if he doesn't he plays VFL. Next year would probably see him out you would think.



I would sleep easier at night, the bloke gives me nightmares...

Seriously he ain't going to get any better and his best is only on display once or twice every 6 games (and I might be being nice). Play Hill, O'Keefe, Ward, Stack, Wood, anyone in his role, because hopefully they may turn out to be more accomplished player's.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The things Eade did wrong tactically he has been doing for the last 8 weeks. He started playing Minson out of the goal square. He had us trying to play through the centre corridor when it was our run and carry down the wings AND DELIVERY TO LEADING FORWARDS that was winning games, not bombing it into the goal square.
Starting Aka on Rioli on a half back flank was ridiculous. Keeping him there for half a game was utter stupidity.
Not once did he change the way we were playing and made them perservere with the centre corridor. How many time did we ignore loose players on the wing for a player under pressure in the centre?


I'm trying to get my head around this post.


You're saying we were too direct Friday night? Too many times we attacked through the corridor? It certainly looked to me like we were rooting around with the thing going backwards and sideways all night. I would have loved to have seen us use the centre of the ground.

Perhaps you mean we tried to use the centre of the ground. Well, we did, that's how we beat their cluster in Tassie. You can't handball though it, you can't kick over it, so you handball into it and then kick over it. We just didn't do it very well.


He also never once tried to combat Hawthorns tactic at centre bounces when they dragged all our backs bar one onto the edge of the square leaving a forward one out in the 50. Why not try and use that to our advantage? Have all those blokes sprint into the middle at the bounce and lock the ball in. With the extra numbers we then have you can apply more pressure on their midfield who continually kicked it straight over the heads of these players to the one on one contest. Very clever by Clarkson as it effectively cut 5 or 6 players out of our side. It might have been ugly but you are there to win a game of football.


So you want our defenders, in a contested situation, to leave their opponents alone in their half of the ground?

You don't think Clarkson would have had one or two drop off the back inside 50 on his own?

You'd want to make sure your blokes got in bloody quick and got their hands on it first. And didn't turn it over. And didn't fumble.

Of course we could have just told our defenders to stick to their opponents and then not turn the ball over. Or fumble.


Eade got outcoached but wasn't helped by his players execution of the basics.




Eade, master tactician, give me a break.


Namdarb, if Wallace pulls the pin, could you apply for his job, please.

[Sedat]

Eagleton - I'm no Eagle fan but what would be gained by forcing him to retire? Pick up a kid with pick 78 and delist him after 2 years? He lives or dies next year on merit - if he deserves a game he plays, if he doesn't he plays VFL. Next year would probably see him out you would think.
Sockeye, if he isn't there already, Eagle is getting perilously close to list clogger territory. Think Tivendale in his last year or two at Richmond. Nobody is doubting they can play, but their best football is just a pass mark and they display this far too infrequently, not to mention they are rising 30. With two uncompromised drafts coming up, list cloggers are going to be sacrificed more so than ever. I reckon Eagle is one sub-standard game away from football oblivion.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Eade's job is safe for one more season. Beyond that it depends on where we end up in 2009. But I have never liked Eade's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan. How many times do you see this and the player with the ball has no-one to give it to, so he gets tackled or goes backwards to get out of trouble. When Griffen goes for his runs, it looks great, but how many times has he been caught holding the ball or the final kick went to no-one in particular because his run put all the forwards out of position.


You mean Bomber Thompson's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan? Geelong take off at every opportunity, regardless of where their teammates are. Then they give it off anyway and if the bloke recieving it is in trouble, he gives it off too. They work so hard for each other there's always someone there to help. Eventually get free, if they don't they wear it and do it again next time they get the ball.

The only sure way to fail is to not take risks.

[Mantis]

Sockeye, if he isn't there already, Eagle is getting perilously close to list clogger territory. Think Tivendale in his last year or two at Richmond. Nobody is doubting they can play, but their best football is just a pass mark and they display this far too infrequently, not to mention they are rising 30. With two uncompromised drafts coming up, list cloggers are going to be sacrificed more so than ever. I reckon Eagle is one sub-standard game away from football oblivion.

Please be this week, Please be this week..... If not definitely the week after.;)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Really? That's surprising

I'm cheating a little bit because Lake was passed over in his first two eligible drafts because he had that sleep problem and no-one thought he could play. He was 20 by round 1, 2002.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Sockeye, if he isn't there already, Eagle is getting perilously close to list clogger territory. Think Tivendale in his last year or two at Richmond. Nobody is doubting they can play, but their best football is just a pass mark and they display this far too infrequently, not to mention they are rising 30. With two uncompromised drafts coming up, list cloggers are going to be sacrificed more so than ever. I reckon Eagle is one sub-standard game away from football oblivion.

For sure.

I'd get rid of MacDougall, Lynch, Street, Wight and O'Shea (perhaps rookie if his attitudes right). Ray too if he wants to go.

That's 6. Our 7th round pick will be in the 70's, there's no point.

[LostDoggy]

For sure.

I'd get rid of MacDougall, Lynch, Street, Wight and O'Shea (perhaps rookie if his attitudes right). Ray too if he wants to go.

That's 6. Our 7th round pick will be in the 70's, there's no point.

You keeping Skipper?

[Sockeye Salmon]

You keeping Skipper?

I don't want to, but he's a better option than Street.

[Mantis]

For sure.

I'd get rid of MacDougall, Lynch, Street, Wight and O'Shea (perhaps rookie if his attitudes right). Ray too if he wants to go.

That's 6. Our 7th round pick will be in the 70's, there's no point.

And your fixing the problem that occured on Friday how??

[Sedat]

That's 6. Our 7th round pick will be in the 70's, there's no point.
The likes of Johncock, Lake, Malceski, Hill and a few others besides were all 60+ draft picks that have had solid careers to date or are emerging as fine players - occasionally some gold can be mined from a long way back in the draft. Failing that, we could always see what is transpiring in the PSD. Irrespective, the 7th round pick will only materialise on the assumption that Ray goes and O'Shea is rookied. Eagle is not going to get any better so the opportunity cost is low but the potential yield is also low. So do you persist with a player that only performs once every 5 weeks to the necessary standard (and never in a game of major significance) or give valuable game time to the Ward's, Stack's, Reid's, etc.. to fast-track their development, whilst at the same time opening up a spot at Willy for the 7th rounder?

[Sockeye Salmon]

And your fixing the problem that occured on Friday how??

The first thing that I'm not going to do is jump up and down based on that performance.

At this stage we aren't as good as Hawthorn or Geelong, we can carry on about not accepting mediocrity if we want but it won't help.

We get rid of deadwood (Eagleton may be included in this, but there's worse than him on the list) and we draft more kids.

We can't trade for a KPP because they so rarely get traded, and when they do they cost plenty, especially when everyone knows you're desperate for one. We also don't have so many players with high trade value that we can afford to lose.

We talk about trading a midfielder for a KPP but I'd argue we're light on for quality midfielders as well. It sure looked like it Friday night.

We might not win the premiership next year either, but we'll put our best team on the park and see how we go. No-one picked us for top 4 this year, if we keep improving we might surprise a few next year as well.

[Stefcep]

You mean Bomber Thompson's "back yourself, run and carry" game plan? Geelong take off at every opportunity, regardless of where their teammates are. Then they give it off anyway and if the bloke recieving it is in trouble, he gives it off too. They work so hard for each other there's always someone there to help. Eventually get free, if they don't they wear it and do it again next time they get the ball.

The only sure way to fail is to not take risks.

I agree totally with your analysis of how Geelong do it. The difference with how we do it is :

1. Geelong 80% of the time don't get caught, and we get caught at least 50% of the time eg Griffen, Cooney, Lake yes Lake

2. Geelong players stand up better in the tackles

3. when they get caught Geelong players have one or two and sometimes three team mates as options to dish off to

4. Geelong has clear targets up forward that lead and mark overhead cleanly so the guy doing the run and carry has a clear purpose. how many times do you see or run and carr guy with nowhere to go, or no-one to kick to?

[Mantis]

The first thing that I'm not going to do is jump up and down based on that performance.

At this stage we aren't as good as Hawthorn or Geelong, we can carry on about not accepting mediocrity if we want but it won't help.

We get rid of deadwood (Eagleton may be included in this, but there's worse than him on the list) and we draft more kids.

We can't trade for a KPP because they so rarely get traded, and when they do they cost plenty, especially when everyone knows you're desperate for one. We also don't have so many players with high trade value that we can afford to lose.

We talk about trading a midfielder for a KPP but I'd argue we're light on for quality midfielders as well. It sure looked like it Friday night.

We might not win the premiership next year either, but we'll put our best team on the park and see how we go. No-one picked us for top 4 this year, if we keep improving we might surprise a few next year as well.

I agree with much of this.

I am realistic to know where we are at, hey I wasn't expecting to win on Friday, I even predicted it, but I didn't expect that. We had been focusing on that game for the best part of 6 weeks and that was the best we could come up with both tactically and performance wise?

To many of our experienced player's don't perform when it counts, it's as simple as that. Our leadership group don't lead. My best 5 player's on Friday night contained just one of this 'special' group, and that just isn't good enough.

[Stefcep]

I've got a bit of catching up to go but there is a bit in this thread that is total bollocks, so I'll respond to them one at a time (by no means am I saying that only the posts I'm responding to are bollocks because there are too many to reply to them all).




Lance Franklin and Cameron Wight are athletes.
Greg Williams and Damian Peverill are footballers.

I suggest we're better off with good players rather than only considering them because of their type.


Athletes versus footballers is a hot topic in other codes: the Olyroos mens under 23 team was widely criticised for having players that were athletes first and soccer players second, with limited skills and knowledge but great aerobic, speed and strength attributes. maybe we can learn from this because the Olyroos were the crappiest team at the Olympics.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I agree totally with your analysis of how Geelong do it. The difference with how we do it is :

1. Geelong 80% of the time don't get caught, and we get caught at least 50% of the time eg Griffen, Cooney, Lake yes Lake

2. Geelong players stand up better in the tackles

3. when they get caught Geelong players have one or two and sometimes three team mates as options to dish off to

4. Geelong has clear targets up forward that lead and mark overhead cleanly so the guy doing the run and carry has a clear purpose. how many times do you see or run and carr guy with nowhere to go, or no-one to kick to?

So there's nothing wrong with the gameplan, Geelong just do it better than everyone else.

[The Underdog]

I agree totally with your analysis of how Geelong do it. The difference with how we do it is :

1. Geelong 80% of the time don't get caught, and we get caught at least 50% of the time eg Griffen, Cooney, Lake yes Lake

2. Geelong players stand up better in the tackles

Geelong's midfielders are also much stronger in the body than our midfielders.
They win the ball in close and break tackles because they are stronger than their opponents.


3. when they get caught Geelong players have one or two and sometimes three team mates as options to dish off to

4. Geelong has clear targets up forward that lead and mark overhead cleanly so the guy doing the run and carry has a clear purpose. how many times do you see or run and carr guy with nowhere to go, or no-one to kick to?

Geelong always have guys lateral to and forward of the contest so that guys know where to go to under pressure. I agree we didn't provide anywhere near the support we needed to but our guys didn't cope with pressure anywhere near as well as Geelong do. They panicked pure and simple.
I actually thought too often we ignored an early lead and after that there was nothing left to go to. Our indecision from guys running with the ball was an endemic problem and has been for about 8 weeks. Only Griffen was decisive and clean with the ball on the run on Friday night and was our best player by a mile.

[Mantis]

Geelong's midfielders are also much stronger in the body than our midfielders.
They win the ball in close and break tackles because they are stronger than their opponents.


How are you judging this?

On height and weight here is a bit of a comparison of what I think are the 5 main midfielder's of the Bulldogs and Geelong.

Us:

Boyd - 184cm - 88kg
Cooney - 186cm - 90kg
Cross - 187cm - 86kg
Griffen - 188cm - 86kg
Giansiracusa - 182cm - 83kg

Them:

Jnr - 182cm - 88kg
Bartel - 187cm (surprised me) - 88kg
Corey - 191cm - 88kg
Ling - 189cm - 94kg
Selwood - 182cm - 83kg

Really not a massive difference when you look at it that way. The main thing I feel is that all of these player's are confident that they will break the tackle, if they don't they will have a player to give the ball off to anyway.

[Stefcep]

Eagleton - I'm no Eagle fan but what would be gained by forcing him to retire? Pick up a kid with pick 78 and delist him after 2 years? He lives or dies next year on merit - if he deserves a game he plays, if he doesn't he plays VFL. Next year would probably see him out you would think.

Callan - perhaps. Worth another year and would be contracted anyway.

Welsh - you can't trade a 29 yo at his 3rd club. Besides, he's contracted and is a forward who can mark - we're not exactly snowed under by them.

.

Some people here see Hill as a replacement for Eagle. Well on Friday, Hill concocted a moment of brilliance to get possession, and from 25 out dead in front missed a sitter. Thats not the first time he's done it this year either. Eagle would have buried it, no worries. Eagle gets criticised for not getting the hard balls, and when did Hill last win a 50-50 ball? what's with him going up one handed to mark?

Also griff's ok but eagles not? well lets see: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs

have a look at his stats for 08': 21 games 420 possessions 20 per game, 31 goals + goal assists 80 inside 50's, 48 tackles versus griffen 22 games 440 possessions 20 per game, 31 goals+assists, 114 inside 50, 54 tackles. what's the diff? he's done enough to go another year

welsh was a good forward target other than johno so he's worth another year.

have a look at the team stats here http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs

we are as bad as anyone when it comes to tackles and hit-outs despite the so-called improvement in this area compared to last year. its why geelong hammered us and its why we lost 6 out of the last 8. its a team hardness issue

[Stefcep]

I would sleep easier at night, the bloke gives me nightmares...

Seriously he ain't going to get any better and his best is only on display once or twice every 6 games (and I might be being nice). Play Hill, O'Keefe, Ward, Stack, Wood, anyone in his role, because hopefully they may turn out to be more accomplished player's.

have a look at eagles stats for 08 specially his season highlights. they're on par with griffen

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--nathan-eagleton

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--ryan-griffen

[Stefcep]

How are you judging this?

On height and weight here is a bit of a comparison of what I think are the 5 main midfielder's of the Bulldogs and Geelong.

Us:

Boyd - 184cm - 88kg
Cooney - 186cm - 90kg
Cross - 187cm - 86kg
Griffen - 188cm - 86kg
Giansiracusa - 182cm - 83kg

Them:

Jnr - 182cm - 88kg
Bartel - 187cm (surprised me) - 88kg
Corey - 191cm - 88kg
Ling - 189cm - 94kg
Selwood - 182cm - 83kg

Really not a massive difference when you look at it that way. The main thing I feel is that all of these player's are confident that they will break the tackle, if they don't they will have a player to give the ball off to anyway.

i judge it on the observation that geelong players do-not just beleive they will-break more tackles, stand up better in the tackle and therefore seem to have more time to lay off a pass to a team mate which is nearly always an option.

[Stefcep]

So there's nothing wrong with the gameplan, Geelong just do it better than everyone else.

Well if you can't execute it well, than THAT game plan is not RIGHT for your team

[The Underdog]

How are you judging this?

On height and weight here is a bit of a comparison of what I think are the 5 main midfielder's of the Bulldogs and Geelong.

Us:

Boyd - 184cm - 88kg
Cooney - 186cm - 90kg
Cross - 187cm - 86kg
Griffen - 188cm - 86kg
Giansiracusa - 182cm - 83kg

Them:

Jnr - 182cm - 88kg
Bartel - 187cm (surprised me) - 88kg
Corey - 191cm - 88kg
Ling - 189cm - 94kg
Selwood - 182cm - 83kg

Really not a massive difference when you look at it that way. The main thing I feel is that all of these player's are confident that they will break the tackle, if they don't they will have a player to give the ball off to anyway.


I'm judging it off watching them play and the work they do. The weight's might be similiar but Selwood aside, the other 4 are much harder bodies. I can't back it up with stats, but you only really need to look at them to see the difference. Agree also that it is in the way that they use it and in the confidence they have built up but I think there is a definite difference in muscle, just check Ablett and Bartel compared to Boyd and Cross.

[Mantis]

have a look at eagles stats for 08 specially his season highlights. they're on par with griffen

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--nathan-eagleton

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--ryan-griffen

I judge Eagleton on how he performs in big games not on possessions which can be the most over-rated tool to use. Seriously who gives a stuff about how many cheap stats one can pick up. He was embarrassing against Hawthorn on Friday night as he was in our last final against West Coast 2 years back.

He is an experienced player who doesn't perform on the big stage. On top of that I couldn't give a stuff how he goes this week, knowing Eagleton he will come out and play a blinder, but it's probably too late knowing that Geelong lie waiting. Last Friday night's game was the most important for our club in a long time and we blew it and Eagleton's performance was one of the reasons why we did, but I admit he certainly wasn't alone.

[LostDoggy]

Athletes versus footballers is a hot topic in other codes: the Olyroos mens under 23 team was widely criticised for having players that were athletes first and soccer players second, with limited skills and knowledge but great aerobic, speed and strength attributes. maybe we can learn from this because the Olyroos were the crappiest team at the Olympics.

The Olyroos were criticised not because they picked atheletes instead of soccer players because they bloke that picked them is an idiot and should not be near a repsresentitive side.
I've never heard the atheletes vs footballers argument in soccer.

[LostDoggy]

Should have had a bet on this old pearler to come out. What a stupid saying.

nearly as good as some of your "Lame Brain" posts!
I was looking for comment on the preceding

[Sedat]

have a look at eagles stats for 08 specially his season highlights. they're on par with griffen
A 20 possession Griffen game is better than a 30 possession game from most other midfielders in the competition. Just wondering if you were impressed by Hodge's measly 16 possession effort on Friday night?

[Twodogs]

Eagleton - I'm no Eagle fan but what would be gained by forcing him to retire? Pick up a kid with pick 78 and delist him after 2 years? He lives or dies next year on merit - if he deserves a game he plays, if he doesn't he plays VFL. Next year would probably see him out you would think.





Eagleton has to go from my POV. It's not just a list blance thing it's an example thing.


The coach can honestly say "I've done everything this year to find this bloke a new role and he's had chance after chance to prove himself. He offers nothing that a kid cant provide and the kid would bring other things to to the table."

The only valuable role that Eagle could provide is for us from here on is to cut his head off, stick it to a spike outside the dressing room door and put a sign saying 'SHAPE UP OR ELSE...'

[Mantis]

Eagleton has to go from my POV. It's not just a list blance thing it's an example thing.

The coach can honestly say "I've done everything this year to find this bloke a new role and he's had chance after chance to prove himself. He offers nothing that a kid cant provide and the kid would bring other things to to the table."

The only valuable role that Eagle could provide is for us from here on is to cut his head off, stick it to a spike outside the dressing room door and put a sign saying 'SHAPE UP OR ELSE...'

You've cheered me up with those comments, thanks.

[Twodogs]

You've cheered me up with those comments, thanks.



It's a visual image that is becoming more and more appealing to me.



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/files/05-28/142098408-head_on_spike.jpg

[LostDoggy]

nearly as good as some of your "Lame Brain" posts!
I was looking for comment on the preceding

Do use a favour, please highlight my lame brain posts.
I don't want to accept my own medocrity. Accepting yours already enough.

[Stefcep]

I judge Eagleton on how he performs in big games not on possessions which can be the most over-rated tool to use. Seriously who gives a stuff about how many cheap stats one can pick up. He was embarrassing against Hawthorn on Friday night as he was in our last final against West Coast 2 years back.

He is an experienced player who doesn't perform on the big stage. On top of that I couldn't give a stuff how he goes this week, knowing Eagleton he will come out and play a blinder, but it's probably too late knowing that Geelong lie waiting. Last Friday night's game was the most important for our club in a long time and we blew it and Eagleton's performance was one of the reasons why we did, but I admit he certainly wasn't alone.

as you said you can put hahn, johnson, murphy, aker in that category this season.

OK ignore possessions which equal griffins.

Lets get to basics: football is ultimately about creating and talking goal-scoring opportunities. eagleton has created (and taken) as many as griffen that have directly led to a goal, but griffen has had 34 more inside 50's.

griffen is a fantastic talent and his runs are great to watch, but how many times does the final pass actually lead to a goal, versus a turnover? in fact only on 31 out of 114 times that he is inside 50 does that result in a goal.

its about perception to a degree.

[bornadog]

i judge it on the observation that geelong players do-not just beleive they will-break more tackles, stand up better in the tackle and therefore seem to have more time to lay off a pass to a team mate which is nearly always an option.

Us:

Boyd - 184cm - 88kg 26yrs, 113 games
Cooney - 186cm - 90kg 22yrs, 110
Cross - 187cm - 86kg 25, 108
Griffen - 188cm - 86kg 22, 73
Giansiracusa - 182cm - 83kg 26, 148
Average 24.2, 110.2

Them:

Jnr - 182cm - 88kg 24yrs, 144 games
Bartel - 187cm (surprised me) - 88kg 25, 131
Corey - 191cm - 88kg 26, 174
Ling - 189cm - 94kg 27, 180
Selwood - 182cm - 83kg 20, 43
Average 24.4, 134.4
Without Sellwood the average is: 25.5, 157.3

You ahve to look at the average age and games experience as well. We are a couple of years behind Geelong in this aspect and if you look at Geelong two years ago they looked promising biut were not delivering.

If you take Sellwood out, the average games in Geelongs midfield is 157 compared to our 110. This valuable experience also helps in learning to break tackles, and general play.

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe some of the stuff I am reading here:eek:

Eade has done an amazing job with a team that has no ff and only one kpp. The players are all introverts who withdraw when under pressure.

I rememer he said a couple of years ago, that the teams that win the Flag have been around the mark for a few years. Think Sydney, West Coast and Geelong (aside from 2006). We have made progress this year, we made the finals in 2006 won one and lost one, made top four this year, lost the first one - hopefully will win next week and play off again in a preliminary final. Next year I hope we will make further progressw.

Footscray has a history of sacking coaches - it has to stop and allow us some stability - I'm for Rocket!!!!

Excellent (and sensible) post DRB.

Rocket has done a great job with a very unbalanced team.

[Stefcep]

The Olyroos were criticised not because they picked atheletes instead of soccer players because they bloke that picked them is an idiot and should not be near a repsresentitive side.
I've never heard the atheletes vs footballers argument in soccer.

True Arnold should be sacked.

On the SBS soccer site The World Game Forum it was a heated topic: the olyroos had a few too many tall strong athletic but skilless players selected at the expense of some very talented, skillfull but not as well built players. One POV was that Messi wouldn't get selected in the Aus team based on these criteria.

[Mantis]

True Arnold should be sacked.

On the SBS soccer site The World Game Forum it was a heated topic: the olyroos had a few too many tall strong athletic but skilless players selected at the expense of some very talented, skillfull but not as well built players. One POV was that Messi wouldn't get selected in the Aus team based on these criteria.

There is a World game board for this type of discussion.

[LostDoggy]

True Arnold should be sacked.

On the SBS soccer site The World Game Forum it was a heated topic: the olyroos had a few too many tall strong athletic but skilless players selected at the expense of some very talented, skillfull but not as well built players. One POV was that Messi wouldn't get selected in the Aus team based on these criteria.

Who knows whats in Arnold's head? He still hasn't fronted the media after the Olympics.
If the mad man had a theory its was sure to be wrong.
Thats the first I've heard of athlete vs footballer theory in soccer.
They left out Djite who is tall and athletic and Burns who is a very quick.
I suppose they replacement were less skilled cos they were duds.

Sorry should be on the other board

[westdog54]

as you said you can put hahn, johnson, murphy, aker in that category this season.

OK ignore possessions which equal griffins.

Lets get to basics: football is ultimately about creating and talking goal-scoring opportunities. eagleton has created (and taken) as many as griffen that have directly led to a goal, but griffen has had 34 more inside 50's.

griffen is a fantastic talent and his runs are great to watch, but how many times does the final pass actually lead to a goal, versus a turnover? in fact only on 31 out of 114 times that he is inside 50 does that result in a goal.

its about perception to a degree.

You're right, to a degree, but football is about both attacking and defending. Griffen does both, Eagle does one.