Balance of List

[Desipura]

Note: Inside player, player who can get his own ball in a contested situation, splits packs which provides first use to outside players.

Outside player: Runs out wide to receive possession from inside player or relies on his pace/reading of the play to take a mark on a lead.

Looking at last nights team, it was obvious that we have more then our fair share of outside players in the team. Cooney and Griffen can play both inside and outside although they still have a bit to learn.

When things are tough (like last night) I like to see these 2 focus on more becoming more inside type players, instead of the opposite. Griffen tried to provide the spark by trying to bust through packs and providing run, Cooney however plays more of an outside game when he is struggling, it should be the other way around.

Inside players: Cross, Hahn, Boyd, Callan, Morris, Lake, Hudson & Minson
Inside/outside players: Cooney, Griffen

Outside players:
F Ray
R Murphy
B Johnson
S Welsh
L Gilbee
N Eagleton
D Giansiracusa
J Harbrow
S Higgins
J Hill
J Akermanis
R Hargreave

It would be interesting to compare us to the Hawks who would not have as many outside types as us.
I am of the belief that we need to get the balance right, the last thing we need is more oustide type players unless they are blue chip.
Lack of kpp is another post for another time...............

[LostDoggy]

Not one of those inside players could hit a target over 40m. And you couldnt call them fast (besides Morris).
Compare that to Hawks, they have 5 or 6 inside players who are quick,skillful and penetrating.

[GVGjr]

Not one of those inside players could hit a target over 40m. And you couldnt call them fast (besides Morris).
Compare that to Hawks, they have 5 or 6 inside players who are quick,skillful and penetrating.

FWIW, Hargrave is very fast.

I think sometimes people confuse pace with ball winning abilities. I don't think the Hawks are quick but when they are out by themselves like last night they would look quick.

[LostDoggy]

FWIW, Hargrave is very fast.

I think sometimes people confuse pace with ball winning abilities. I don't think the Hawks are quick but when they are out by themselves like last night they would look quick.

Hargrave wasnt in the 'inside' list thought GVGjr.

[LostDoggy]

I remember reading something about Harry Taylor here. Last night I thought whilst its all good and well to have Jarrod Grant on the list how much more competitive we might have been through the season by having a more mature recruit like Taylor on at our club. He's not in the Cats best 22 yet but he is a mighty handy player to bring in when required.
Does anyone have a theory on why Clayton mainly goes for the physically immature recruits?

[Dancin' Douggy]

The list is definitely unbalanced.
We have an over abundance of mid fielders and a lack of key talls.
Answer. Trade midfielders for talls.
So, we can trade crap midfielders for crap talls. Which is what we would normally do.
Or we trade good midfielders for good talls.
But we simply must get the list back in balance.

I've had an absolute, ABSOLUTE, gutful of us trying to unearth bargain basement talls.
Pask, Baird, Davidson, McDougall,(need I go on......... because I can if you want me to). OK. Aaron James, James Cook, Kingsley Hunter, Trent Bartlett, Adam Morgan, Scott Bassett.....................

We have to be more aggressive with our trading and chase some big fish.
We can afford to peel off a couple of good mids because that's what we've got in our kitty.

Keep Griffen and Cooney and maybe Higgins (wouldn't get anything for him because of lack of game time and also has genuine potential) and the rest are on the table. YES. THE REST.
Either that or we just keep drifting along, patting all our boys on the back and just kidding ourselves that we'll ever be a chance to go all the way.
As I said, I've had a gutful.
Watching the ball sailing into the Hawthorn forward line last night and seeing a long pair of arms going up to hold the mark was something I've never seen as a bulldog supporter since Chris was at his peak. (Aside from maybe 2 or 3 games from Darcy). And Chris was drafted in 1988!!!!!!!!!! 20 years of drafts and trades and we haven't turned up 1 key forward. Not 1.
I've had a GUTFUL.
Scott Clayton???? Genius????????? Guru???????? I don't think so.

[bornadog]

DD, there is one flaw in your arguement, not one team in the AFL will trade a quality KPP. They would have to be mighty p*ssed off and want to leave their club.

The only way forward is to develop Boumann, Grant and Everitt as our Future KPP's. I had a look at Boumann at training last week, and I can tell you I am excited by his physcial presences. He has a great shape and is a very good size. He just turned 19, is 196cm, but shaped athletically. Needs to put on 15kg. Grant I believe is a better footballer and needs to put on 20kg as does Everitt who is also just 19. These three 19 year olds, all tall are our future KPP's and add Cordy to that list. But I believe they all need game time, not pissing around in the Willy reserves for four years then being delisted.

DD, any suggestions on who we can trade for?

[mjp]

All you can do is hope that when you finish down the bottom, there are stand-out tall players (forwards I guess you mean) to pick....and then you need to hope that they (like Gumbleton at Essendon) dont keep getting injured.

We used pick 5 last year on a key forward...not much else you can do than that really. The year we picked Cooney number one, he was an absolute stand-out. Melbourne might just get lucky with Watts this year....

[Topdog]

Yeah for all the hoopla about not being able to draft a key tall there really aren't that many good ones in the league that were available. Buddy aside I don't think we had a shot at any good tall player.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Yeah for all the hoopla about not being able to draft a key tall there really aren't that many good ones in the league that were available. Buddy aside I don't think we had a shot at any good tall player.

Are you talking about the last twenty years? Since 1988?

[mjp]

Well, last 20 years is a big call...but if you go through the list of the 'stars' around now, only Franklin and Fevola (who was not all that highly regarded) were 'bypassed' by us.

Pavlich
Riewoldt
Kossi
Brown
Hall might have been available I guess
Cloke
Roughead
Mooney might have been available.

If you look at the list, we are not alone in not having a strong key forward - it just so happens that Hawthorn and St Kilda have two each...most other clubs? None.

Who else even is there? You can start talking about guys like Petrie and Thompson, Hansen etc, but a few years ago a straw poll of supporters didn't want to trade Petrie for McMahon - it is not like there are too many sure things going around.

Grant and Boumann are our best shots right now. If they develop, well and good. If not, then we will still be in strife.

[hujsh]

Grant and Boumann are our best shots right now. If they develop, well and good. If not, then we will still be in strife.

Add Cordy to the list. Nice to have 3 young prospects though. We'd be either mighty unlucky or really crap if none of those 3 become an ok AFL player.

[DOG GOD]

Add Cordy to the list. Nice to have 3 young prospects though. We'd be either mighty unlucky or really crap if none of those 3 become an ok AFL player.

We need more than an "OK" player...we need one or 2 of those to be able to win a game off their own boot...just need the midfield to deliver it to them as well.

[hujsh]

We need more than an "OK" player...we need one or 2 of those to be able to win a game off their own boot...just need the midfield to deliver it to them as well.

We NEED that do we? Do you want Frankin, Brown win off boot or Mooney win off boot?

[Sockeye Salmon]

In the game I went to last night I saw us get absolutely smashed in the midfield. I'm not sure getting rid of midfielders is necessarily the right way to go.

[Mantis]

In the game I went to last night I saw us get absolutely smashed in the midfield. I'm not sure getting rid of midfielders is necessarily the right way to go.

The midfielder's who played last night didn't get the job done, why wouldn't we turn a few of these over and try and find one's whose disposal, ball handling and decison making stand up in big games?

[Topdog]

The midfielder's who played last night didn't get the job done, why wouldn't we turn a few of these over and try and find one's whose disposal, ball handling and decison making stand up in big games?

Aren't we better off making sure that Ward, Higgins and other younger players develop into those players.

[Mantis]

Aren't we better off making sure that Ward, Higgins and other younger players develop into those players.

Yeah we are, but we have to make room in our team so that they get enough game time to develop the way we want them to.

[Mofra]

I wouldn't be putting Cordy under the heading of savior anytime soon. He's probably going to take a few years of development just to debut. The last super skinny amazing 200cm runner we drafted was Cam Wight, and whilst I admire his attack on the football he isn't a matchwinner (he hasn't even found a position to settle into yet).

Grant wont be ready next year to be our main KPP, Boumann is 19 years old & playing Willy seconds. Skipper battles injury & the fact he appears to be a ruckman in a KPP body - not that he's spent too many games as a KPP forward anyway, having to plug holes as normally the only other tall in the side not required in the ruck is Lake.

[Scorlibo]

Grant wont be ready next year to be our main KPP

No, he won't, but, Buddy Franklin didn't step straight up into the Hawks' FF or CHF spot, from memory he played more of a small forward role crumbing around the packs and just getting use to the pace of AFL. For him to play that role was good for his development as well, as could be seen last night he does just as much damage when the ball hits the ground as in the air.
I'm not comparing Jarrad to Buddy but he does have the talent and athleticism to play a different role to what he may eventually become. Lets give him a few more games next year.

[The Coon Dog]

Yeah we are, but we have to make room in our team so that they get enough game time to develop the way we want them to.

Any thoughts on who should make way, or is that a bit obvious? ;)

[hujsh]

No, he won't, but, Buddy Franklin didn't step straight up into the Hawks' FF or CHF spot, from memory he played more of a small forward role crumbing around the packs and just getting use to the pace of AFL. For him to play that role was good for his development as well, as could be seen last night he does just as much damage when the ball hits the ground as in the air.
I'm not comparing Jarrad to Buddy but he does have the talent and athleticism to play a different role to what he may eventually become. Lets give him a few more games next year.

I like this as we can see how he does at AFL instead of playing 1 game like Walsh

[Stefcep]

Well, last 20 years is a big call...but if you go through the list of the 'stars' around now, only Franklin and Fevola (who was not all that highly regarded) were 'bypassed' by us.

Pavlich
Riewoldt
Kossi
Brown
Hall might have been available I guess
Cloke
Roughead
Mooney might have been available.

If you look at the list, we are not alone in not having a strong key forward - it just so happens that Hawthorn and St Kilda have two each...most other clubs? None.

Who else even is there? You can start talking about guys like Petrie and Thompson, Hansen etc, but a few years ago a straw poll of supporters didn't want to trade Petrie for McMahon - it is not like there are too many sure things going around.

Grant and Boumann are our best shots right now. If they develop, well and good. If not, then we will still be in strife.
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but virtually all other clubs have or have had a tall forward or two in the past 10 years.
Adelaide: Goodwyn, Burton
Brisbane: Brown, Bradshaw, lynch
Collingwood: Rocca, S and A, Cloke
Melbourne: Neitz, Schwartz, Robertson
Port Adelaide: treadrea
St Kilda: reiwoldt, kossie, Gehrig
Carlton: fev
Dons: Lloyd, Lucas
WCE: Lynch
freo: Pavlich
North: Carey, Petrie
Swans: Locket, Hall, O'laughlin
Geelong; Mooney ( but I don't rate him just an ordinary forward in a great team)
Richmond: Richo
Hawks: Buddy Roughhead

Sure we had Grant, but he really wasn't a leading forward target for much of his career, goal scoring 4+ per game over his 5-8 years of his career like a Lloyd, Locket, Neitz, Fev, Tredrea, Pavlich . Yes the recruiters need to be looked at. other clubs can get these players we can't. why?

[hujsh]

Maybe I've misunderstood you, but virtually all other clubs have or have had a tall forward or two in the past 10 years.
Adelaide: Goodwyn, Burton
Brisbane: Brown, Bradshaw, lynch
Collingwood: Rocca, S and A, Cloke
Melbourne: Neitz, Schwartz, Robertson
Port Adelaide: treadrea
St Kilda: reiwoldt, kossie, Gehrig
Carlton: fev
Dons: Lloyd, Lucas
WCE: Lynch
freo: Pavlich
North: Carey, Petrie
Swans: Locket, Hall, O'laughlin
Geelong; Mooney ( but I don't rate him just an ordinary forward in a great team)
Richmond: Richo
Hawks: Buddy Roughhead

Sure we had Grant, but he really wasn't a leading forward target for much of his career, goal scoring 4+ per game over his 5-8 years of his career like a Lloyd, Locket, Neitz, Fev, Tredrea, Pavlich . Yes the recruiters need to be looked at. other clubs can get these players we can't. why?

They aren't tall. In fact one nearly won a brownlow as a mid.

[Topdog]

Maybe I've misunderstood you, but virtually all other clubs have or have had a tall forward or two in the past 10 years.
Adelaide: Goodwyn, Burton
Brisbane: Brown, Bradshaw, lynch
Collingwood: Rocca, S and A, Cloke
Melbourne: Neitz, Schwartz, Robertson
Port Adelaide: treadrea
St Kilda: reiwoldt, kossie, Gehrig
Carlton: fev
Dons: Lloyd, Lucas
WCE: Lynch
freo: Pavlich
North: Carey, Petrie
Swans: Locket, Hall, O'laughlin
Geelong; Mooney ( but I don't rate him just an ordinary forward in a great team)
Richmond: Richo
Hawks: Buddy Roughhead

Sure we had Grant, but he really wasn't a leading forward target for much of his career, goal scoring 4+ per game over his 5-8 years of his career like a Lloyd, Locket, Neitz, Fev, Tredrea, Pavlich . Yes the recruiters need to be looked at. other clubs can get these players we can't. why?

I'm ignoring half of your players considering we are talking about players drafted in the past decade.

Adelaide: if Goodwyn and Burton are tall forwards than so is Brad Johnson
Brisbane: Did we have a chance at Brown? Bradshaw possibly but was drafted 13 years ago.
Collingwood: Didnt draft A Rocca, Cloke = F/S
Melbourne: See Adelaide
Port Adelaide: Tredrea was already on Port's list. So in essense they have never drafted a key forward in their entire history.
St. Kilda: Yep they have 2 as mjp said.
Carlton: This is 1 of 2-3 players we actually missed out on.
Essendon: Both > 10 years and now really really struggling to replace either of them.
WCE: Possibly an option we should have looked at, the mature player outside the AFL.
Freo: No chance at him.
North: Petrie has had 1 good season and it really is debatable if he is a forward.
Swans: Never drafted a tall forward.
Geelong: Mooney wasn't drafted by them and as you said he really isn't that great.
Richmond: No one.
Hawks: Had a chance with Buddy.

Not so many clubs are actually getting these players. There simply isn't that many around. Even Buddy was passed up on by the Hawks, of course in hindsight Richmond would have taken him first, Delidio 2nd and Roughead would have been ours.

[MrMahatma]

Looking at what I think we need in terms of 'balance' of the list, and what we have, we aren't MILES off being a premiership threat... just 3 or 4 years... that's all.

There's a massive upside in all of:

Grant
Williams
Everitt
Boumann
Higgins
Ward
Hill

Through Ayce in as well.

And they're just the guys we've already got, and the ones that could be out and out jets.

The problem is, we recruited in the wrong order. We got our 'gun' mids - Cooney, Griff, Higgins etc before we got the talls... and talls take that much longer to develop, that we don't get the full value of the mids in their prime... perhaps...

At any rate, I think drafting over the last couple of years (heck, the last 2 years we've taken talls as our first round pick) has looked to rectify the issue for height, we just have to be patient.

In terms of throwing the young talls into Dogs jumpers early to learn the game, just like the Hawks did with Buddy, the difference is that the hawks had other talls like Barker, Dixon, Holland around for a year or two to take the big defenders so that the younger boys didn't get smashed. We put a young 6' 6" kid up forward and they'll get the biggest, meanest defender the other team has, just for balance. So it may not work.

[Mantis]

Any thoughts on who should make way, or is that a bit obvious? ;)

Besides the obvious one I think there are another couple playing for there future's at the Bulldogs this week ( and hopefully the week after).

Our effort's Friday were appalling, but I am willing to give a few another chance to prove they have what it takes to play well under pressure.

[Go_Dogs]

No, he won't, but, Buddy Franklin didn't step straight up into the Hawks' FF or CHF spot, from memory he played more of a small forward role crumbing around the packs and just getting use to the pace of AFL. For him to play that role was good for his development as well, as could be seen last night he does just as much damage when the ball hits the ground as in the air.
I'm not comparing Jarrad to Buddy but he does have the talent and athleticism to play a different role to what he may eventually become. Lets give him a few more games next year.

I tend to agree. If he can show a bit during the pre-season and do what is required I'd be pretty happy to rotate him off a forward pocket, or half forward flank and start pumping some serious match time into him.

[macca]

I noticed teams grooming their young players, especially defenders. There seems to be a lack of it at the doggies at the moment.

Harry Taylor for example. Today against St Kilda he was put on Riewoldt. He has been slaughtered in a few games i.e against Hall and Petrie in the previous weeks but he has been the better for it. Zac Dawson, and Thomas Murphy. Nathan Brown for Collingwood.

Can someone tell me why we are not going down this path with Wight, O'Shea, Boumann and Everitt ? Blood the young Kids, give them opportunity, and persist with them, or simple fact that they have not shown enough ?

Why are we not trying Wayde Skipper as a centre half forward? He has shown he can take a grab.

[Dogs 24/7]

I remember reading something about Harry Taylor here. Last night I thought whilst its all good and well to have Jarrod Grant on the list how much more competitive we might have been through the season by having a more mature recruit like Taylor on at our club. He's not in the Cats best 22 yet but he is a mighty handy player to bring in when required.
Does anyone have a theory on why Clayton mainly goes for the physically immature recruits?

Geelong lost Egan which should have tested their depth much like us not having Williams much however Taylor came in and more than did the job required. In hindsight he would have been tailor made for us (no pun intended well just a bit).

Clayton has a theory that you need to recruit potential 200 game players so isn't concerned by the fact that it might take 3 years for them to fill out. Draft enough of them and you build a team capable of winning the flag. I look at it a bit differently and definitely see that guys like Taylor or Palmer as players that would have made us better this year and next which might override the long term potential of a Jarrod Grant.

[Mantis]

I noticed teams grooming their young players, especially defenders. There seems to be a lack of it at the doggies at the moment.

Harry Taylor for example. Today against St Kilda he was put on Riewoldt. He has been slaughtered in a few games i.e against Hall and Petrie in the previous weeks but he has been the better for it. Zac Dawson, and Thomas Murphy. Nathan Brown for Collingwood.

Can someone tell me why we are not going down this path with Wight, O'Shea, Boumann and Everitt ? Blood the young Kids, give them opportunity, and persist with them, or simple fact that they have not shown enough ?

Why are we not trying Wayde Skipper as a centre half forward? He has shown he can take a grab.

1. Harry Taylor is hardly a kid and is sacrificed by Geelong every week on the best forward (does a good job on occassion) such that Harley and Scarlett are 'freed' up and can be used in offensive roles.

2. Zac Dawson's career is really going places.

3. Nathan Brown is built like a man, our young talls are built like 15 yo's.

[Mofra]

Bit unfair on Geelong's history with forwards. Kingsley was still a 40-50 goal per year forward target, better than most of our "tall" forwards.
Lonergan looks good - underrated footballer, runs top the right spots & can take a contested grab. Ablett fell in their lap, they tried everything with Charlie Gardiner as well.

Port have the Westhoffs, give them time.

Adelaide have Tippett & Sellar on the list - Tippett could develop into a target.

[dog town]

In the game I went to last night I saw us get absolutely smashed in the midfield. I'm not sure getting rid of midfielders is necessarily the right way to go.
Have to agree. Cannot afford to lose any of our quality midfielders. We are already critically short in that area.

We dont really have an area to hang our hat on these days. We are critically short of runners and we lack star quality talls. In reality our biggest strength for much of the season was our blue collar work ethic and hard approach around the footy. The media likes to paint us as dashing and full of skills but its simply not the case. As soon as our stoppage work and contested ball fell away we have looked like the middle of the road club our list probably indicates us to be. If we can get back our ferocious attack on the footy and big work rate then we are probably a top 4 side but without it we are just ok.

[Mantis]

Have to agree. Cannot afford to lose any of our quality midfielders. We are already critically short in that area.

We dont really have an area to hang our hat on these days. We are critically short of runners and we lack star quality talls. In reality our biggest strength for much of the season was our blue collar work ethic and hard approach around the footy. The media likes to paint us as dashing and full of skills but its simply not the case. As soon as our stoppage work and contested ball fell away we have looked like the middle of the road club our list probably indicates us to be. If we can get back our ferocious attack on the footy and big work rate then we are probably a top 4 side but without it we are just ok.

And who are these?

[LostDoggy]

Have to mention the dreaded "Malthouse" name here. Of course hate him etc,etc....but one aspect of his coaching that seems to allow Collingwood to continually renew itself over past few years is insistence on throwing young players into the cauldron so to speak. Repeatedly. They do seem to come out of that cauldron highly "tempered".
And no I am not a closet magpie- I was born at 124 Cowper St Footscray- Its on my birth certificate.....

[Scorlibo]

The media likes to paint us as dashing and full of skills but its simply not the case. As soon as our stoppage work and contested ball fell away we have looked like the middle of the road club our list probably indicates us to be. If we can get back our ferocious attack on the footy and big work rate then we are probably a top 4 side but without it we are just ok.

I agree that our attack on the footy and ferociousnous was what got us so far early but our list is NOT middle of the road. If anything the hard edge we showed early in the season brought out what a strong list we have. Honestly, we have so many of those 25 yr 26yr 27yr players who should be peaking now/next year that where the team got themselves to was only right. Gilbee, Murphy, Hahn, Hargrave, Lake, Morris, Cross, Boyd, Giansiracusa and Callan form that core group of players who should be at their best. To compliment them there are a whole new batch of young and talented players coming through - Addison, Everitt, Grant, Griffen, Harbrow, Higgins, Hill, O'Keefe, Reid, Ward, Williams and Cooney.

This list is strong and we should be up the top of the ladder with the current mix.

[Scorlibo]

Have to mention the dreaded "Malthouse" name here. Of course hate him etc,etc....but one aspect of his coaching that seems to allow Collingwood to continually renew itself over past few years is insistence on throwing young players into the cauldron so to speak. Repeatedly. They do seem to come out of that cauldron highly "tempered".
And no I am not a closet magpie- I was born at 124 Cowper St Footscray- Its on my birth certificate.....

Agreed Timbo, the Pies are the best at developing talent and playing the younger players is something we may need to do more of. Certainly O'Keefe and Grant I would like to see a few more games from in 09.

[Happy Days]

Why are we not trying Wayde Skipper as a centre half forward? He has shown he can take a grab.

I think we've tried this already. And aside from what can now be deemed as a fluke game against Geelong, and one solitary pack mark against the Saints, that experiment was deemed a solid failure.

[hujsh]

I think we've tried this already. And aside from what can now be deemed as a fluke game against Geelong, and one solitary pack mark against the Saints, that experiment was deemed a solid failure.

I remember reading he did well vs Glass when we won at Subi in 06.

Maybe what we should try is instead of giving a guy a go at FF for 1-2 games and saying no it won't work get Johnson, we should give someone time to play the position. Quentin Lynch didn't always look great but did well in the Eagles side of 06-07

[LostDoggy]

Agreed Timbo, the Pies are the best at developing talent and playing the younger players is something we may need to do more of. Certainly O'Keefe and Grant I would like to see a few more games from in 09.

Don't believe the hype. What has Collingwood achieved in the Malthouse era?
Close in a wet GF and pumped in the next.
If they were the best at developing talent they would have won one.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I remember reading he did well vs Glass when we won at Subi in 06.

Maybe what we should try is instead of giving a guy a go at FF for 1-2 games and saying no it won't work get Johnson, we should give someone time to play the position. Quentin Lynch didn't always look great but did well in the Eagles side of 06-07

7 kicks, 4 marks, 5 handballs, 1 goal.

I don't think he got any Brownlow votes.


For the record, Glass had
6 kicks, 2 marks, 10 handballs and a goal.

[Scorlibo]

Don't believe the hype. What has Collingwood achieved in the Malthouse era?
Close in a wet GF and pumped in the next.
If they were the best at developing talent they would have won one.

ES, I don't read the hype, let'lone believe it. I have seen for myself that the Pies continue to play the kids, kids who aren't high draft picks and who you wouldn't pick to make the grade. These kids benefit from playing at the highest level and it gives the club another layer of depth.

[LostDoggy]

ES, I don't read the hype, let'lone believe it. I have seen for myself that the Pies continue to play the kids, kids who aren't high draft picks and who you wouldn't pick to make the grade. These kids benefit from playing at the highest level and it gives the club another layer of depth.


Exactly. This seems to create a real confidence that they can knock off other teams after a bad week previously right down the list. It integrates all the players on the list and encourages genuine teamwork and camraderie, where at the dogs when this goes missing we're done. And yet Collingwood on paper are a pretty average side IMO.

[dog town]

I agree that our attack on the footy and ferociousnous was what got us so far early but our list is NOT middle of the road. . Well what are our strengths that hold us above the other teams at this point in time? We have some real quality but so do most sides. We are average or maybe even slightly below average for pace and we dont have a wide spread of quality big men. What we do have is a number of guys with pretty good foot skills and a good bunch of ball winning midfielders. Unfortunately our strengths can be influenced more by desire and intensity more than some of the strengths the other sides have.

You can really throw a blanket over many of the lists. Not for a minute saying it is a bad list just that it is not elite.

[hujsh]

7 kicks, 4 marks, 5 handballs, 1 goal.

I don't think he got any Brownlow votes.


For the record, Glass had
6 kicks, 2 marks, 10 handballs and a goal.

Not saying he tore the game up just that he beat Glass for at least one quarter. Something about teaching him a lesson or schooling him or something like that IIRC

[Scorlibo]

You can really throw a blanket over many of the lists. Not for a minute saying it is a bad list just that it is not elite.

If its not elite now/next year it never will be (or at least not any time soon) IMO - the "premiership clock" as they call it would indicate that our time to challenge is now. Positionally speaking, we do lack quality talls, but our midfield group is as good as anyone's bar Geelong.

[Go_Dogs]

If its not elite now/next year it never will be (or at least not any time soon) IMO - the "premiership clock" as they call it would indicate that our time to challenge is now. Positionally speaking, we do lack quality talls, but our midfield group is as good as anyone's bar Geelong.


I guess it depends on which way you look at it. Over the next 5 years, Murph etc are going to become the older statesmen, Cooney etc the middle tier, and the next generation, I guess including Cal Ward and some of this years group plus guys we haven't drafted yet, will be the young guns.

IMO, the list is finally starting to balance out a little bit better...and our clock will be ticking for a while yet. Problem being, so will Geelongs and Hawthorns.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm not convinced about our midfield. What makes it one of the best in the league? Below is something I've put together, and whilst our first couple are very good and have huge upside, we're not near the likes of Geelong and arguably Hawthorn.

Adam Cooney: Very good player, though he's still unable to play a full season. The second half of the year he's chased cheap kicks in the back half, doing pointless 1-2 handballs and not running with the ball/taking them on. Capabilities are endless; strong bodied, capable of winning the hard ball, good tackler, explosive pace, good skills, solid leap/mark. He's a genuine match winner but I've been disappointed with his second half of the year. He's not nearly as influential when it matters and in the stoppages/clearances. The talent is there, but he needs to work much harder. Nevertheless, he's likely to become an elite player.
Should be: A+. Now: A -

Ryan Griffen: Injuries have set him back a little bit, and perhaps his dads illness too, but obviously he's a quality player and that should be looking at 'elite status' within the next year or two. Still building his fitness base & learning the midfield caper, but he's proven he can be very, very damaging in this role. It's a matter of building up the endurance to go harder longer. His run & carry is arguably the best in the league - very, very strong midfielder and almost impossible to tackle. He changes direction quickly, has explosive pace, great skills and reads the play. His efforts v Hawthorn last week were very impressive, the only player prepared to take them on, run/bounce and give it all he's got. Future leader too. Next year is a big one for Griff.
Should be: A+. Now: B+

Daniel Cross: No fear at all and very consistent in his efforts. Unfortunately his disposal by foot is horrible, but his willingness to win the football and put himself in positions to receive it is fantastic. He's a strong overhead mark and whilst his hands aren't comparable to Westys, they're still pretty good. Not a lot more to comment on Crossy, he's at his peak now and most already know his strengths and weaknesses. He's the perfect foil to Cooney/Griffen, but I would like to see him not hesitate as much at times when he does receive the ball. It's imperative Crossy feeds the ball to the runners as he struggles to hit targets.
Now: A

Matthew Boyd: His continual improvement has been impressive but he's had a very disappointing second half of the year - it's somewhat of a blemish on his career as he's found ways to improve his game up until then. He was leading the clearances at one stage for us, averaging around 26 disposals per game and was delivering the ball into our F50 quite frequently. He's dropped off significantly, so much so he probably had his worst game against Hawthorn (2 disposals in Q1?). Boyd is a tough inside midfielder, but his role needs to change for the side - he needs to become a tagger, or we need to see what we can get for him. He's one paced like Crossy and his foot skills aren't great, so he really needs to be doing the hard things ALL the time otherwise his impact is very minimal. I'd say whilst he's a good player, he's expendable for the right price.
Now: B+

Nathan Eagleton: His form this year has been poor. He's managed to keep himself in the team by playing a decent game here and there, and that's the disappointing thing. At times he's very dangerous, running to space and then using his long precise foot skills to advantage. For the most part though, he's been lazy - he won't run with the ball, he'll only run to space every now and again, he'll lack intensity at times and he won't apply defensive pressure. Eagleton's best is devastating but we've rarely seen it. His worst is really bad, and we've become more accustomed to these type of performances this year. We could afford to carry him through the earlier parts of the year, but as the sides form declined, it hurt us a lot more. My guess is he has one year left, but with limited opportunities.
Now: C

Farren Ray: He's had another disappointing season and I suspect he won't be at the club in 2009. His best is actually quite good, he finds plenty of space, runs all day, can take a good grab and carries the football through the lines. He really needed to build upon his game though but instead he's gone backwards this year. He refuses to carry the ball, he elects to either handpass to a stationary target or kick backwards. The few times he does carry the ball, he either makes poor decisions, executes badly or gets run down. Against Hawthorn he butchered the ball almost every time and was clearly stage fright. His best ('06 EF) is fantastic, but he simply hasn't reached the level again. I would be reluctant to let him go, as he has an upside, and we'd get bugger all for him. Nevertheless, he's had more then enough opportunities to get it right.
Should be: B+. Now: C

Part-time midfielders:

Jason Akermanis: He's a big key to the side and it really baffles me why he's been wasted in the back half, particularly last week - that has got to be the worst coaching move in Eade's tenure at the club. Aker along with Cooney was one of the main reasons we were so deadly in the first half of the year. He was brilliant up forward and very good when running through the midfield. He dropped off for a month or so, but since regathered his form, and it's unfortunate he's been used wrong the last couple of weeks.
Now: A -

Daniel Giansiracusa: I find it difficult to assess Gia, and perhaps after this weekend it'll be clearer, because I fear Gia struggles to stand up in big games. He's a quality player who is very intelligent and uses the ball well, but I'm not sure he's capable of standing up on the big stage. At times, he's a hardened player. Others, he's bordering on soft. His fitness is really lacking and perhaps that's his biggest issue. I rate Gia as a quality player but I can't quite establish how good. He's a smooth mover who knows when/where to lead. He's a creative half forward and a good kick for goal, I suspect he'd play better with a focal point up forward though.
Now: B

I could include a few more, ala Johnson, but the point is we rely so heavily on Cooney, Griffen & Cross. Outside of those three, I don't think our players are as good as what we may have thought. They're all quality players in their own right, but Cross/Boyd/Ray are all once paced and poor disposers of the ball. Our 'ball carriers' don't carry it either - Ray and Eagleton the biggest culprits.

Our midfield is good, but I don't think it rates up there with the best. Perhaps if Higgins, Ward & Hill develop into the quality players we think they will, we'll be up there, but at the moment there's not a lot of depth when one or two of them are down on form. Look at Geelong - for a while they were without Ablett, Ling, Chapman & Wojcinski yet still beat us/Hawthorn. For mine, Cooney/Griff need more support in the running department because Ray/Eagleton refuse to and the rest are average ball users/slow.

[Mantis]

^^^^

Your being bloody generous.

Cooney: A
Griffen: B- (will hopefully be A next year, A+ the year after)
Cross: B-
Boyd: C+

Eagleton: D
Ray: D
Gia: D (Would be higher if he had some pace)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

^^^^

Your being bloody generous.

Cooney: A
Griffen: B- (will hopefully be A next year, A+ the year after)
Cross: B-
Boyd: C+

Eagleton: D
Ray: D
Gia: D (Would be higher if he had some pace)

I probably was thinking too much about the first half of the year but I think Boyd (before last weekend) was probably at least a B, ditto Gia. Although both seem to go missing when it counts, so perhaps you are closer to the mark.

The overall point is that our three best midfielders are fine with the potential of getting a lot better, but the rest are miles off.

[dog town]

Good write up TBB.

Both extremely harsh on Guido. Been one of his biggest critics in the past but he is one of the few guys who HAS stood up and if anything been better in the big games than he has in the lesser games.

Guido's best games this season have been against North, Hawthorn, Adelaide and Stkilda. The North and Adelaide games were both losses. If you look through his stats game to game its quite conclusive that he does lift for the better teams. I will just run through disposals and goals for a brief snap shot. I have highlighted the top 8 sides.
Most of his high counts for tackles and those sort of things were against top 8 sides as well.

r1 vs Adel- 27 disp and 3 goals
r2 vs Melb- 20 disp and 1 goal
r3 vs Stk- 25 and 0 goals
r4 vs Ess- 13 and 2
r5 vs Rich 20 and 1
r6 vs WC- 21 and 2
r7 vs Syd- 24 and 0
r8 vs Freo- 21 and 2
r9 vs North- 22 and 0
r10 vs Haw- 25 and 1
r11 vs Stk- 24 and 4
r12 vs Bris- 14 and 0
r13 vs Coll- 23 and 0
r14 vs Port- 21 and 1
r15 vs Melb- 22 and 2
r16 vs Geel- 15 and 3
r17 vs Carl- 18 and 1
r18 vs Syd 11 and 1
r19 vs North- 23 and 3
r20 vs Bris- 16 and 3
r21 vs Ess- 26 and 0
r22 vs Adel- 33 and 1
Final vs Haw- 26 and 2

I think Guido has taken enormous strides as a leader this season. Thought he was easily one of our best performers the other night. Ran Crawford ragged at one stage.

[dog town]

I probably was thinking too much about the first half of the year but I think Boyd (before last weekend) was probably at least a B, ditto Gia. Although both seem to go missing when it counts, so perhaps you are closer to the mark.

It is definetly hard to assess the years of guys like Cooney and Griffen. Cooney has kept his numbers reasonably high in the second half of the year but I dont think anyone can argue with the fact that he has dropped away significantly.

[Mantis]

Good write up TBB.

Both extremely harsh on Guido. Been one of his biggest critics in the past but he is one of the few guys who HAS stood up and if anything been better in the big games than he has in the lesser games.



I understood that TBB had rated Gia as a midfielder NOT as a player. I rated him solely on his efforts when he has gone into the midfield, not when he has played up forward. I suppose the two inter-twine, the role of HFF & midfielder, but I rate midfield work on the ability to win clearances and break lines, not the ability to pick up easy kicks.

If I had rated Gia on his work in the forwardline he would probably rate a B, yeah he has a had a good year up there, but I don't think his work up the field has been as telling.

[dog town]

I understood that TBB had rated Gia as a midfielder NOT as a player. I rated him solely on his efforts when he has gone into the midfield, not when he has play up forward. I suppose the two inter-twine, the role of HFF & midfielder, but I rate midfield work on the ability to win clearances and break lines, not the ability to pick up easy kicks.

If I had rated Gia on his work in the forwardline he would probably rate a B, yeah he has a had a good year up there, but I don't think his work up the field has been as telling.
Its too easy to just write them off as easy kicks. He has played mainly as a running player which is basically a midfielder in todays game. His overall game has clearly had a harder and more consistent edge to it. You can trust him week in and week out.

[Mantis]

Its too easy to just write them off as easy kicks. He has played mainly as a running player which is basically a midfielder in todays game. His overall game has clearly had a harder and more consistent edge to it. You can trust him week in and week out.

I agree with much of that, but he is of far more use to us across HF than on the ball. His creativity is an asset up forward as to his good finishing (abit he let the side down at an important time on Friday). He is a very good leading up to the ball, but his lack of pace is a concern when he is in the midfield.

For my liking he tends to go to ground to much in the contest, loves to slide onto the ball, but when your down there you ain't got much room for a mistake. I think he does this to try and hide his lack of pace because I think if he feels if tries to burst through a tackle he won't as he doesn't have the power or the acceleration. If he goes to ground and is clean with his handling he might be able to release one of our running player's, but it doesn't always work out that way and he often finds himself out of the contest.

Anyway enough of that, Gia has improved this consistency this year and I hope he performs well this week.

[LostDoggy]

i think everyone is far too harsh on Gia, we need some perspective people!! for what Gia is and what he brings to the group he is in our top ten. He is not now and never will be an in an under type!! he does get himself into the right spot outside often enough for my liking!! Give me Gia everyday of the week in front of the eagle......

[The Coon Dog]

Give me Gia everyday of the week in front of the eagle......

I don't think you'll get too many arguments there..

[LostDoggy]

Well, last 20 years is a big call...but if you go through the list of the 'stars' around now, only Franklin and Fevola (who was not all that highly regarded) were 'bypassed' by us.

Pavlich
Riewoldt
Kossi
Brown
Hall might have been available I guess
Cloke
Roughead
Mooney might have been available.

If you look at the list, we are not alone in not having a strong key forward - it just so happens that Hawthorn and St Kilda have two each...most other clubs? None.

Who else even is there? You can start talking about guys like Petrie and Thompson, Hansen etc, but a few years ago a straw poll of supporters didn't want to trade Petrie for McMahon - it is not like there are too many sure things going around.

Grant and Boumann are our best shots right now. If they develop, well and good. If not, then we will still be in strife.

I would add Shaw, Wood and White too as these guys are the types we need to develop for our future.

[Scorlibo]

Nice write up TBB. Agree with most of your descriptions, here is how I would rate them (out of ten so I can avg them:

Cooney: 9.5
Cross: 9
West: 8.5
Boyd: 8.5
Griffen: 7.5
Average: 8.6


Geelong's:

Ablett: 10
Bartel: 9.5
Corey: 9.5
Selwood: 8.5
Ling: 8.5
Average: 9.2

Hawthorn's:

Hodge: 9.5
Mitchell: 9.5
Sewell: 9
Lewis: 8
Bateman: 8
Average: 8.8

[Mantis]

Nice write up TBB. Agree with most of your descriptions, here is how I would rate them (out of ten so I can avg them:

Cooney: 9.5
Cross: 9
West: 8.5
Boyd: 8.5
Griffen: 7.5
Average: 8.6


Geelong's:

Ablett: 10
Bartel: 9.5
Corey: 9.5
Selwood: 8.5
Ling: 8.5
Average: 9.2

Hawthorn's:

Hodge: 9.5
Mitchell: 9.5
Sewell: 9
Lewis: 8
Bateman: 8
Average: 8.8

Can you drop off some of the drug's you've been taking to me. They must be good one's.:rolleyes:

[Scorlibo]

Can you drop off some of the drug's you've been taking to me. They must be good one's.:rolleyes:

Care to explain? :rolleyes:

[Mantis]

Care to explain? :rolleyes:

Your ratings seem all out of whack.

I can't see how you could rate Boyd on par with Selwood and ahead of Bateman.

Even on our list to give Cross a 9 is baffling, sure he tries hard, but 9, jesus.

Are your rating's based on possession averages or something??

[Scorlibo]

Where would you rate Selwood in comparison to Boyd Mantis?

I don't rate Bateman as high as many do.

Cross tries hard? His efforts aren't wasted, he is one of the best midfielders in the competition, the All Australian selectors think so as well.

[Mantis]

Where would you rate Selwood in comparison to Boyd Mantis?

I don't rate Bateman as high as many do.

Cross tries hard? His efforts aren't wasted, he is one of the best midfielders in the competition, the All Australian selectors think so as well.

Using your rating scale as a guide I would be giving Boyd a 7, maybe a 7.5, but that's pushing it. Until he performs well in 'big' games I can't rate him any higher.

Cross had 39 possessions last week, yet had no influence on the match. He was probably used in an un-suitable role, but he finds himself out of the 'engine room' far too much for my liking. This is probably not his fault, but it does impact his influence on matches which hasn't been as high this year as it has been in years past.

[bornadog]

Using your rating scale as a guide I would be giving Boyd a 7, maybe a 7.5, but that's pushing it. Until he performs well in 'big' games I can't rate him any higher.

Cross had 39 possessions last week, yet had no influence on the match. He was probably used in an un-suitable role, but he finds himself out of the 'engine room' far too much for my liking. This is probably not his fault, but it does impact his influence on matches which hasn't been as high this year as it has been in years past.

I think we tend to underplay the efforts of players like Cross, West etc because they aren't flashy, they are always at the bottom of a pack feeding out the ball. Spectators tend to have their eye on the flashy, quick sprint players and forget the player that fed the ball out to them. It took Scotty West a long time to be recognized for his efforts by the football public. Cross is in the same mould, and I would rate him very highly and almost elite and would be considered elite if his kicking was better.

[The Underdog]

I think we tend to underplay the efforts of players like Cross, West etc because they aren't flashy, they are always at the bottom of a pack feeding out the ball. Spectators tend to have their eye on the flashy, quick sprint players and forget the player that fed the ball out to them. It took Scotty West a long time to be recognized for his efforts by the football public. Cross is in the same mould, and I would rate him very highly and almost elite and would be considered elite if his kicking was better.

Without sounding like a smartarse all I can say is, but it's not and it hasn't shown any great improvement over the last few years. He seems to lose confidence in his kicking incredibly quickly and some of my greatest frustrations this year have been him hesitating and refusing to have a shot at goal or pass by foot when he easily could have. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, he's very good overhead, by hand and his work ethic is elite, however I think his standing in the game is about right. I don't think he's reached the level of a Scott West. A very good player but not top shelf.

[Scorlibo]

Using your rating scale as a guide I would be giving Boyd a 7, maybe a 7.5, but that's pushing it. Until he performs well in 'big' games I can't rate him any higher.

How does that performance alter your rankings?

[LostDoggy]

Boyds test will come this week against a quality midfield.

[Mantis]

How does that performance alter your rankings?

He was good.

Disposal wasn't super, I think his efficiency was 67% which isn't great.

Defensive pressure was better which was important.

I will be looking for a repeat performance this week before I alter my rankings though.

[MrMahatma]

Without sounding like a smartarse all I can say is, but it's not and it hasn't shown any great improvement over the last few years. He seems to lose confidence in his kicking incredibly quickly and some of my greatest frustrations this year have been him hesitating and refusing to have a shot at goal or pass by foot when he easily could have. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, he's very good overhead, by hand and his work ethic is elite, however I think his standing in the game is about right. I don't think he's reached the level of a Scott West. A very good player but not top shelf.
Cross also goes to ground too much. His first choice is to dive on the ball, even if he could ran through and pick it up while keeping his feet.

He's a good player, but not a superstar. I'd give him a 7 at best.

[hujsh]

Cross also goes to ground too much. His first choice is to dive on the ball, even if he could ran through and pick it up while keeping his feet.

He's a good player, but not a superstar. I'd give him a 7 at best.

Didn't Cross make the AA top 40 and the DT squad? And you give him 7

[Scorlibo]

Didn't Cross make the AA top 40 and the DT squad? And you give him 7

If you divided all team's best 22s up into rankings of 1-10, there would be roughly 35 players under each ranking. Cross being named in the best 40 squad means he ranks as a 9 or 10 out of ten.

Problem is under the same reasoning, Bartel, Ablett, Corey and Selwood are all 10s and Ling is a 9.

Still, Crossy is way better than a 7.

[LostDoggy]

Aren't we better off making sure that Ward, Higgins and other younger players develop into those players.

Watched Callan play for Willi against Frankston on Saturday and although he didn't set the world on fire, what he did was Pure Class and i can see him developing into a KPP

[Desipura]

He would want to grow a fair bit.......

[bornadog]

He would want to grow a fair bit.......

185cm, and 18 years old, he might put on 10cm over summer:D

[MrMahatma]

If you divided all team's best 22s up into rankings of 1-10, there would be roughly 35 players under each ranking. Cross being named in the best 40 squad means he ranks as a 9 or 10 out of ten.

Problem is under the same reasoning, Bartel, Ablett, Corey and Selwood are all 10s and Ling is a 9.

Still, Crossy is way better than a 7.
I think you could assume there would be very few, if any, players getting a game in an AFL team with a rating or 1, or 2, or 3 even. Maybe some 4s. Even if there were an even spread of players from 4-10, which I'd also doubt (would say the majority of players fall into 5-7.5 mark) you'd have 50 players on each. I'd say it'd be more likely to have 10-15 rated 10s, 15-20 rated 9, 20-30 rated 8, 50 rated 7...

So I think to get a rating higher than 7 you have to be well close to one of the best 50 players in the league, which I'd say Cross falls just short of (couldn't give you a list though). I think he is elite in some areas of his game - courage, endurance, handpassing. Good at others: Overhead, decision making. Poor at others: Keeping his feet, kicking, speed.

I just don't think you can be rated higher than a 7 if you're such a bad kick.

Just my opinion. He's a good player and one of our most important. I just don't classify him as a gun due to his deficiencies.

I'm also surprised his kicking hasn't improved at all - given he trains so hard I would've thought he'd focus on this and improve it.

[bulldogtragic]

I think you could assume there would be very few, if any, players getting a game in an AFL team with a rating or 1, or 2, or 3 even. Maybe some 4s. Even if there were an even spread of players from 4-10, which I'd also doubt (would say the majority of players fall into 5-7.5 mark) you'd have 50 players on each. I'd say it'd be more likely to have 10-15 rated 10s, 15-20 rated 9, 20-30 rated 8, 50 rated 7...

So I think to get a rating higher than 7 you have to be well close to one of the best 50 players in the league, which I'd say Cross falls just short of (couldn't give you a list though). I think he is elite in some areas of his game - courage, endurance, handpassing. Good at others: Overhead, decision making. Poor at others: Keeping his feet, kicking, speed.

I just don't think you can be rated higher than a 7 if you're such a bad kick.

Just my opinion. He's a good player and one of our most important. I just don't classify him as a gun due to his deficiencies.

I'm also surprised his kicking hasn't improved at all - given he trains so hard I would've thought he'd focus on this and improve it.
Assuming the 40 player AA squad was the best 40 players in the comp...

Cross is in the best 40 players in the AFL in 2008...

[Dancin' Douggy]

Assuming the 40 player AA squad was the best 40 players in the comp...

Cross is in the best 40 players in the AFL in 2008...

And Ling and Mitchell aren't

[bulldogtragic]

And Ling and Mitchell aren't
According to Walls, Healey, Bickley, Bartlett and Co.

Yes.

[Scorlibo]

I think you could assume there would be very few, if any, players getting a game in an AFL team with a rating or 1, or 2, or 3 even. Maybe some 4s. Even if there were an even spread of players from 4-10, which I'd also doubt (would say the majority of players fall into 5-7.5 mark) you'd have 50 players on each. I'd say it'd be more likely to have 10-15 rated 10s, 15-20 rated 9, 20-30 rated 8, 50 rated 7...

So I think to get a rating higher than 7 you have to be well close to one of the best 50 players in the league, which I'd say Cross falls just short of (couldn't give you a list though). I think he is elite in some areas of his game - courage, endurance, handpassing. Good at others: Overhead, decision making. Poor at others: Keeping his feet, kicking, speed.

I just don't think you can be rated higher than a 7 if you're such a bad kick.

Just my opinion. He's a good player and one of our most important. I just don't classify him as a gun due to his deficiencies.

I'm also surprised his kicking hasn't improved at all - given he trains so hard I would've thought he'd focus on this and improve it.

OK, Some valid points. I have dug out some stats though:

Cooney: Disposal Efficiency 74.12%, 2.79 Clangers per game.
Cross: Disposal Efficiency 78.99%, 2.58 Clangers per game.

admittedly that is disposal efficiency not kicking efficiency but I think Cross' kicking is fine personally, I would argue that the issue is with the confidence he has with his kicking.

[Dancin' Douggy]

According to Walls, Healey, Bickley, Bartlett and Co.

Yes.

exactly

[strebla]

OK, Some valid points. I have dug out some stats though:

Cooney: Disposal Efficiency 74.12%, 2.79 Clangers per game.
Cross: Disposal Efficiency 78.99%, 2.58 Clangers per game.

admittedly that is disposal efficiency not kicking efficiency but I think Cross' kicking is fine personally, I would argue that the issue is with the confidence he has with his kicking.

I think you have to back all of your skills to be an elite midfielder I love Crossy but he needs to BELIEVE he is elite.

[LostDoggy]

the important thing about clangers is When and where......everybody makes mistakes!!

[macca]

Crossy needs to learn to kick with power and conviction. Too many times last friday, I could see his kicks just slowing, and floating to the man. This often left him waiting, and suspect of a clanger. He needs to seriously put some punch into the kick or develop some power in them at least.

[Scorlibo]

Can you drop off some of the drug's you've been taking to me. They must be good one's.:rolleyes:

Geelong, Hawthorn + Dogs midfields on brownlow votes:

Geelong:

Ablett - 22
Selwood - 19
Corey - 15
Bartel - 10
Ling - 9
Total - 75
Average - 15

Hawthorn:

Sewell - 16
Mitchell - 15
Lewis - 9
Bateman - 9
Hodge - 2
Total - 51
Average - 10.2

Bulldogs:

Cooney - 24
Boyd - 12
Cross - 12
Griffen - 10
Giansiracusa/West - 3
Total - 61
Average - 12.2

[Mantis]

Geelong, Hawthorn + Dogs midfields on brownlow votes:

Geelong:

Ablett - 22
Selwood - 19
Corey - 15
Bartel - 10
Ling - 9
Total - 75
Average - 15

Hawthorn:

Sewell - 16
Mitchell - 15
Lewis - 9
Bateman - 9
Hodge - 2
Total - 51
Average - 10.2

Bulldogs:

Cooney - 24
Boyd - 12
Cross - 12
Griffen - 10
Giansiracusa/West - 3
Total - 61
Average - 12.2

Using the umpires to justify your reasoning..... Hahaha.

[Scorlibo]

Cmon Mantis, not having a go, just saying that the stats, AA selectors, finals campaign and now brownlow medal are all indicating that the likes of Cross and Boyd are high class midfielders and are being underrated by a lot of people, including some dogs supporters.

[Mantis]

Cmon Mantis, not having a go, just saying that the stats, AA selectors, finals campaign and now brownlow medal are all indicating that the likes of Cross and Boyd are high class midfielders and are being underrated by a lot of people, including some dogs supporters.

Stats - Cross had 39 against the Hawks in the final and we got beat by 9 goals, what influence did these possessions have on the match?

Finals camaign - Boyd was terrible against Hawthorn, Farren Ray terrible. He was much better against Sydney, but was just ok against Geelong. If these performances makes him a high class midfielder I must be watching a different game.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Stats - Cross had 39 against the Hawks in the final and we got beat by 9 goals, what influence did these possessions have on the match?

Finals camaign - Boyd was terrible against Hawthorn, Farren Ray terrible. He was much better against Sydney, but was just ok against Geelong. If these performances makes him a high class midfielder I must be watching a different game.

That it takes more than 1 or 2 good performers to win a final?

[Scorlibo]

Stats - Cross had 39 against the Hawks in the final and we got beat by 9 goals, what influence did these possessions have on the match?

Finals camaign - Boyd was terrible against Hawthorn, Farren Ray terrible. He was much better against Sydney, but was just ok against Geelong. If these performances makes him a high class midfielder I must be watching a different game.

Cross' 39 touches had a very positive influence on the match, its just a pity that 15 of the other blokes didn't turn up to play. Do you think that teams always win because one player has 39 touches? If there isn't support not even someone like Ablett can turn the game with their influence - that was proven when the Cats got done by the Pies.

Admittedly, Boyd was bad against the Hawks but he wasn't alone and boy did he bounce back in the next two finals. BOG against Sydney and I saw him get quite a few votes in the WOOF Player of the Finals Series vs Geelong which would indicate that he was more than "just ok"

[Mantis]

Cross' 39 touches had a very positive influence on the match, its just a pity that 15 of the other blokes didn't turn up to play. Do you think that teams always win because one player has 39 touches? If there isn't support not even someone like Ablett can turn the game with their influence - that was proven when the Cats got done by the Pies.

Watch the game again like I have and see how good Cross was. He was downright horrible in a totally unsuitable role so perhaps it wasn't his fault.


Admittedly, Boyd was bad against the Hawks but he wasn't alone and boy did he bounce back in the next two finals. BOG against Sydney and I saw him get quite a few votes in the WOOF Player of the Finals Series vs Geelong which would indicate that he was more than "just ok"

I didn't think he was BOG against Sydney, he had 11 ineffective disposals which in my mind is far too many. I thought he was in our best 10 against Geelong, but his disposal let him down again.

In my mind we saw which player's can and can't stand up to finals pressure this year. I would say that Boyd more so than Cross would still be in the unsure category. He isn't the only mature player in the can't or unsure group.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Cross' 39 touches had a very positive influence on the match, its just a pity that 15 of the other blokes didn't turn up to play. Do you think that teams always win because one player has 39 touches? If there isn't support not even someone like Ablett can turn the game with their influence - that was proven when the Cats got done by the Pies.

Admittedly, Boyd was bad against the Hawks but he wasn't alone and boy did he bounce back in the next two finals. BOG against Sydney and I saw him get quite a few votes in the WOOF Player of the Finals Series vs Geelong which would indicate that he was more than "just ok"

Ablett and Johnson had 34 each yesterday and they still got done - duds, the pair of them.

If only they played like Stokes, Lonergan and Kelly.

[Scorlibo]

Watch the game again like I have and see how good Cross was. He was downright horrible in a totally unsuitable role so perhaps it wasn't his fault.



I didn't think he was BOG against Sydney, he had 11 ineffective disposals which in my mind is far too many. I thought he was in our best 10 against Geelong, but his disposal let him down again.

In my mind we saw which player's can and can't stand up to finals pressure this year. I would say that Boyd more so than Cross would still be in the unsure category. He isn't the only mature player in the can't or unsure group.

Downright horrible? I don't need to watch the game again to know that he wasn't downright horrible.

IMO, Cross was one of our best performers in the finals series, he led the way not only getting that ball heading our way after a stoppage, but ensuring that it didn't head the opposition's way without a lot of hastle. Averaged 30 disposals and 5 tackles in the finals.

Boyd may be in the unsure group as far as finals go but his performance against Sydney and throughout the year should have him held in higher regard.

[Mantis]

Ablett and Johnson had 34 each yesterday and they still got done - duds, the pair of them.

If only they played like Stokes, Lonergan and Kelly.

Yeah whatever.

Ablett was by far Geelong's best player.

Johnson was just fair.

[Scorlibo]

Ablett and Johnson had 34 each yesterday and they still got done - duds, the pair of them.

If only they played like Stokes, Lonergan and Kelly.

:p What spuds

[Mantis]

Downright horrible? I don't need to watch the game again to know that he wasn't downright horrible.

Effort's were great, his execution was terrible.



Boyd may be in the unsure group as far as finals go but his performance against Sydney and throughout the year should have him held in higher regard.

We need players in our best 22 who will perform well in finals not just in the regular season.

[Scorlibo]

We need players in our best 22 who will perform well in finals not just in the regular season.

I agree, we do, but Boyd performed well in 2/3 finals and the one he didn't perform well in was one in which half our team didn't show up for. Would you rather bring in Sam Reid after that Hawthorn game and have him rack up 45 touches compared to Boyd's pathetic 32?

Even if you do still think that he performed poorly this finals series, don't you think he deserves to have judgment passed on more than just 3 games?

[Scorlibo]

Effort's were great, his execution was terrible.

92.31% Disposal Efficiency, 0 clangers

[Sockeye Salmon]

92.31% Disposal Efficiency, 0 clangers

Mantis doesn't worry about facts, he's too busy with his illusions.

[Mantis]

Mantis doesn't worry about facts, he's too busy with his illusions.

I thought I was to worried being bitter or was that last week?

[Mantis]

I agree, we do, but Boyd performed well in 2/3 finals and the one he didn't perform well in was one in which half our team didn't show up for. Would you rather bring in Sam Reid after that Hawthorn game and have him rack up 45 touches compared to Boyd's pathetic 32?

Even if you do still think that he performed poorly this finals series, don't you think he deserves to have judgment passed on more than just 3 games?

Now your just making thing's up.

Where did I say Boyd's 32 possessions were pathetic? Boyd had an efficiency rating of 67% that night meaning 11 of his disposals were in-effective. Personally I don't think that's good enough.

On your second point performances in most of the regular season games count for little. I couldn't give a stuff how our players perform against the lower ranked teams. I do care how they perform in games against teams we need to beat to win a flag (top 4 teams). Boyd wasn't alone in performing below par against these teams (he did play well in Tassie), but as a 'senior' player I think we could expect a little more.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I thought I was to worried being bitter or was that last week?

If I think you're talking crap I'll say so.

You were talking crap.

[Scorlibo]

Now your just making thing's up.

Where did I say Boyd's 32 possessions were pathetic? Boyd had an efficiency rating of 67% that night meaning 11 of his disposals were in-effective. Personally I don't think that's good enough.

On your second point performances in most of the regular season games count for little. I couldn't give a stuff how our players perform against the lower ranked teams. I do care how they perform in games against teams we need to beat to win a flag (top 4 teams). Boyd wasn't alone in performing below par against these teams (he did play well in Tassie), but as a 'senior' player I think we could expect a little more.

Boyd versus bottom 8 sides:

25.9 disposals, 0.2 goals, 4.3 tackles, 97.4 ranking points.

Boyd versus top 8 sides:

24.4 disposals, 0.1 goals, 3.2 tackles, 92 ranking points.

He does perform worse against top 8 sides, but this kind of performance dip is only natural when you play higher quality opposition.