What went wrong.

[Mantis]

Ok so I am a sadist and have just finished watching a replay of the game. It was about as much fun as going to the dentist and I actually have healthy teeth, but it still sucks.

Here are a few observations I made:

* When we ran out, through the warm-up and the national anthem we look scared. There was no confidence in our players appearance, we, as Eade mentioned looked over-awed.

* Our skill error's get to a point of almost being amusing. **** me, how many times did we hand the ball to the opposition on a platter. Gia, Eagleton (I'll get to him later), Ray, Cross, Murf, Higgins the list goes on. Not good enough boys, shit they only train every second day to play in games like these and when we get there we freeze.

* Too many of our player's go to ground in the contest, again not good enough.

* Our captain can't impose himself on the game when we are struggling. He started off very well on Guerra by leading into space, but then got involved in wrestling contests and was in-effective. His last qtr was typical, ran around in the back half picking up cheap kicks, but he was in good company with that one. Our leadership in general was and is poor when the chips are down.

* Higgins makes 3 mistakes in a row at the start of the 3rd qtr and then get's KO'ed, karma is a bitch.

* Now on to my mate Eagle. Good teams do there home work and Hawthorn gave him no room to move on his left and he was down right embarrassing.

* As we do when we are struggling we started bombing the ball into an out-numbered & out-sized forwardline, it's just plain silly. Hold onto the ball until a option present's and if one doesn't hug the boundary.

* Ryan Griffen is a bloody good kid, he busted his arse and he tried hard to break the game open. Hope he is confident amongst the group because he should be our next captain.

* Our tactics were bemusing, we picked an attacking team, but played defensively. Did he pick the right team to carry out his instrustions? I suppose do we have the right players to carry out these instructions?

* Hahn was terrible, just like the Geelong game where he was ineffective. Rumours that he wa sinjured, but he gave us nothing.

It was a similiar story to too many of our performances in finals over the years. The group showed some great resolve through the first half of the year and will need to draw back on those experiences to get us up for this week's game.

We simply have to show some fight this week because if we don't there are going to be some serious questions to the future of this playing group. We have some great talent coming through, but our senior core have to stand up and lead the way this week, they just have to.

[LostDoggy]

Ok so I am a sadist and have just finished watching a replay of the game. It was about as much fun as going to the dentist and I actually have healthy teeth, but it still sucks.

Here are a few observations I made:

* When we ran out, through the warm-up and the national anthem we look scared. There was no confidence in our players appearance, we, as Eade mentioned looked over-awed.


I noticed this. During the national anthem, we did look scared. Did you see how the Hawks stood? Like a team, and they were united.

I think the national anthem reflected the whole game. They stood and played like a team, we stood and played like individuals, not one individual achieving much (Griffen though, was alright).

[BulldogBelle]

Seemed as though most of Eade's tactics all went wrong.

He put Akermanis on Rioli, this was a waste of Akermanis. Soon as Akermanis went to the forward line we kicked goals.

Morris on Franklyn was a disaster. Lake was a far better opponent. Lake is taller, a better mark than Morris and also gets into Franklyn's face. Should have been Lake on Franklyn with maybe Shaggy filling in holes.

We tried to play on at all costs. Bob Murphy started doing this successfully at the start of the year but teams are wise to him now and all of his play-ones came unstuck. Bad move, should have spotted up a player instead of trying to bomb it in. Too slow to change.

We tried to play on through the midfield. Make it our own, but pressure led to poor hand-balls and poor decisions. Turn-over galore. The team should be taking the best option and not a programmed strategy. The best option is sometimes to kick wildly forward instead of a chancy handball when in trouble.

Higgins should not have played, he doesn't deserve a spot. has done nothing. Lot of talk of how good he could be but that's all. Better off with Skipper providing a permanent tall option up forward. can also change in the ruck with Minson.

Tacking was not good. When we were winning games at the start of the season we were tackling fiercely.

There are a few players who need a good kick up the bum. Eade - I don't think that he has the IQ for tactics.

Players have not been encouraged to use their best skill assets, with the exception perhaps of Griffen. He likes breaking tackles and running. Often he can gain 100 meters in one exchange with a run and kick. What of the running and dodging talents of Murphy, Ray, Gilbey and AKA. All seem to be stifled. The fantastic marking talents of Hill were not exploited.

There are other poor strategies and coaching decisions that I'm sure others have noticed.

[Mantis]

1.Seemed as though most of Eade's tactics all went wrong.

2.He put Akermanis on Rioli, this was a waste of Akermanis. Soon as Akermanis went to the forward line we kicked goals.

3.Morris on Franklyn was a disaster. Lake was a far better opponent. Lake is taller, a better mark than Morris and also gets into Franklyn's face. Should have been Lake on Franklyn with maybe Shaggy filling in holes.

4. We tried to play on at all costs. Bob Murphy started doing this successfully at the start of the year but teams are wise to him now and all of his play-ones came unstuck. Bad move, should have spotted up a player instead of trying to bomb it in. Too slow to change.

5.We tried to play on through the midfield. Make it our own, but pressure led to poor hand-balls and poor decisions. Turn-over galore. The team should be taking the best option and not a programmed strategy. The best option is sometimes to kick wildly forward instead of a chancy handball when in trouble.

6.Higgins should not have played, he doesn't deserve a spot. has done nothing. Lot of talk of how good he could be but that's all. Better off with Skipper providing a permanent tall option up forward. can also change in the ruck with Minson.



1. Yes they did. He had a poor night.

2. Certainly was. Callan should have played on him, perhaps even Harbrow who performed quite well at Willi during the year in defence. Perhaps we could have played more tahn 5 defenders so we had some flexibility.

3. Yes it was, as soon as the 50 was cleared out a move had to be made. It was like lamb's to the slaughter. Felt sorry for Morris as he should never had been in that situation.

4. Yeah he does it far to often and it's lost it's effect.

5. It's what happens when you have poorly skilled players in pressure situautions.

6. Agree, did nothing in his 2 games back. Big questions marks on his future, but I suppose he is learning his trade from a few like player's, whatever that means...

[1eyedog]

Ok so I am a sadist and have just finished watching a replay of the game. It was about as much fun as going to the dentist and I actually have healthy teeth, but it still sucks.

Here are a few observations I made:

* When we ran out, through the warm-up and the national anthem we look scared. There was no confidence in our players appearance, we, as Eade mentioned looked over-awed.

* Our skill error's get to a point of almost being amusing. **** me, how many times did we hand the ball to the opposition on a platter. Gia, Eagleton (I'll get to him later), Ray, Cross, Murf, Higgins the list goes on. Not good enough boys, shit they only train every second day to play in games like these and when we get there we freeze.

* Too many of our player's go to ground in the contest, again not good enough.

* Our captain can't impose himself on the game when we are struggling. He started off very well on Guerra by leading into space, but then got involved in wrestling contests and was in-effective. His last qtr was typical, ran around in the back half picking up cheap kicks, but he was in good company with that one. Our leadership in general was and is poor when the chips are down.

* Higgins makes 3 mistakes in a row at the start of the 3rd qtr and then get's KO'ed, karma is a bitch.

* Now on to my mate Eagle. Good teams do there home work and Hawthorn gave him no room to move on his left and he was down right embarrassing.

* As we do when we are struggling we started bombing the ball into an out-numbered & out-sized forwardline, it's just plain silly. Hold onto the ball until a option present's and if one doesn't hug the boundary.

* Ryan Griffen is a bloody good kid, he busted his arse and he tried hard to break the game open. Hope he is confident amongst the group because he should be our next captain.

* Our tactics were bemusing, we picked an attacking team, but played defensively. Did he pick the right team to carry out his instrustions? I suppose do we have the right players to carry out these instructions?

* Hahn was terrible, just like the Geelong game where he was ineffective. Rumours that he wa sinjured, but he gave us nothing.

It was a similiar story to too many of our performances in finals over the years. The group showed some great resolve through the first half of the year and will need to draw back on those experiences to get us up for this week's game.

We simply have to show some fight this week because if we don't there are going to be some serious questions to the future of this playing group. We have some great talent coming through, but our senior core have to stand up and lead the way this week, they just have to.

This reeks of a real cop-out excuse to me from a coach who has no answer as to why the team performed the way they did. We smashed Collingwood in an Elimination final in 2006 in front of 10,000 more people at the same venue in a night game. We were even more outnumbered playing Collingwood than we were against Hawthorn. Doesn't make sense to me other than that the players were scared of quality opposition because of their recent poor form, however Eade has said time and again over the past 4 weeks that the players are confident in their ability.

[1eyedog]

1. Yes they did. He had a poor night.

2. Certainly was. Callan should have played on him, perhaps even Harbrow who performed quite well at Willi during the year in defence. Perhaps we could have played more tahn 5 defenders so we had some flexibility.

3. Yes it was, as soon as the 50 was cleared out a move had to be made. It was like lamb's to the slaughter. Felt sorry for Morris as he should never had been in that situation.

4. Yeah he does it far to often and it's lost it's effect.

5. It's what happens when you have poorly skilled players in pressure situautions.

6. Agree, did nothing in his 2 games back. Big questions marks on his future, but I suppose he is learning his trade from a few like player's, whatever that means...

That's just crazy. The kid has played what, 30 games, has suffered serious shoulder and ankle injuries over the past few years and has not had the opportunity to string 10-15 games together in that time. When he does so he will show his worth, but to suggest that his future is in question at this stage with the injuries he has had is naive and unfair.

[Mantis]

That's just crazy. The kid has played what, 30 games, has suffered serious shoulder and ankle injuries over the past few years and has not had the opportunity to string 10-15 games together in that time. When he does so he will show his worth, but to suggest that his future is in question at this stage with the injuries he has had is naive and unfair.

Maybe I am being harsh, but what type of player will he develop into?

He has showed the ability to finish in the past, but is a tad slow, doesn't look to have great endurance and is poor defensively. We need him to be a ball carrying midfielder and I'm not sure if he will or can fill that role.

And I am not just judging him on the past couple of weeks, that would be unfair, even for me.

[Bulldogs_6]

Everything went wrong pretty much.

[FrediKanoute]

That's just crazy. The kid has played what, 30 games, has suffered serious shoulder and ankle injuries over the past few years and has not had the opportunity to string 10-15 games together in that time. When he does so he will show his worth, but to suggest that his future is in question at this stage with the injuries he has had is naive and unfair.

I agree, Higgins just looks like a guy who has missed a heap of the season. He runs to rights spots and gets the ball, but his execution is missing b/c he is adjusting to the pace of the game. If West, Williams and Addison were available then I think Higgins wouldn't be playing, but there not and half a Higgo is better than some of the guys at Willi.

As for what type of player....if he turns into a Ben Cousins forward mid I'd be wrapped!

[LostDoggy]

Some good analysis here guys. Well done:)

One thing I will say is that if the team can't get themselves fired up this week after an embarassing performace in a final they simply never will. I'll reserve my judgment of this team until after Friday's game. Seems that the players know they can beat lesser teams but don't have the self belief against the top 2 teams.

[Mofra]

Maybe I am being harsh, but what type of player will he develop into?

He has showed the ability to finish in the past, but is a tad slow, doesn't look to have great endurance and is poor defensively. We need him to be a ball carrying midfielder and I'm not sure if he will or can fill that role.

I'm not sure he will be a ball-winning midfielder anytime soon, if he can;t string games together how will he develop the cardiovascular required to play midfielde rin more than bursts? He probably doesn't have the explosive pace of a Griffen to play in bursts.
His finishing seems to be his best asset and he's decent overhead for his size. Probably more a Shannon Grant type.

[1eyedog]

Maybe I am being harsh, but what type of player will he develop into?

He has showed the ability to finish in the past, but is a tad slow, doesn't look to have great endurance and is poor defensively. We need him to be a ball carrying midfielder and I'm not sure if he will or can fill that role.

And I am not just judging him on the past couple of weeks, that would be unfair, even for me.

I would like to be optimistic about him and see him filling the void up forward left by the retirements of Johnson and Akermanis in the next 2 years. He certainly doesn't have the pace Johnson or Akermanis had in their youth as you stated, however he is a good lead up, has good hands, is creative and knows where the goals are. I think he will be sorely needed here until he develops enough to be thrown into the midfield rotations. Once again he won't be a quick midfielder but I can honestly see him being a Cousins type player. I'm not saying he will necessarily be as good as Cousins but he will do a similar job for us. He appears to have time when he gets the ball, has poise and as you stated finishes well, his deficiencies in the middle will be offset by his ability to kick goals, something Cousins did well. I see him playing an integral part in midfield rotations with Ward, Griffen and Cooney for the next 5-8 years.

[1eyedog]

I agree, Higgins just looks like a guy who has missed a heap of the season. He runs to rights spots and gets the ball, but his execution is missing b/c he is adjusting to the pace of the game. If West, Williams and Addison were available then I think Higgins wouldn't be playing, but there not and half a Higgo is better than some of the guys at Willi.

As for what type of player....if he turns into a Ben Cousins forward mid I'd be wrapped!

Sorry Fredi didn't read your post, I agree with the analogy here, but maybe I'm being a little too over optimistic.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm not sure he will be a ball-winning midfielder anytime soon, if he can;t string games together how will he develop the cardiovascular required to play midfielde rin more than bursts? He probably doesn't have the explosive pace of a Griffen to play in bursts.
His finishing seems to be his best asset and he's decent overhead for his size. Probably more a Shannon Grant type.

He'd be no slower than a Bartel, or Jordan Lewis I wouldn't have thought. Not super quick, but quick enough.

I think he will play his best football as a midfielder, and I would be making sure he is fit enough (and hopefully he has a big of luck on the injury front) to play midfield next year. Yes, he has a little bit of work to do on certain aspects of his game, but if he can develop an elite fitness base, I think his work rate will look much better.

If we can have a midfield with Cooney, Griffen and Higgins next year, to compliment Cross and Boyd, we'll be looking pretty good.

Cal Ward will be another, but it is probably unfair to expect him to play the bulk of next season in the midfield.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I think the Shannon Grant comparison is the most accurate for Higgins.

The only resemblence to Cousins is that he looks vaguely like him. As midfielders they're as different as you would get.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I watched it again on saturday night when everyone had gone to bed.


1. Leadership-for me this was the thing that screamed out more than anything else and the one thing that could have affected everything that went wrong. I'm not saying that by itself it would have fixed any of our shortcomings but it's where you start and, simply and tragically, we have none. It pains me to say it but if any of our guys played or led like Hodge, Mitchell or Bateman we wouldnt have copped the anal probing that we did.

2. Eagleton. Simply should never play for us again-the guys lost a yard of pace and the tools he has left leave him significantly short of what is required. The coach has tried to find him a new trick all year but it just aint working.

3. I cant figure out how we settled so well and then lost it halfway through the first quarter.


4. I love Daniel Cross but he should never find himself more than an arms length away from the footy for the remainder of his career. friday night was a debacle for him and the coaching staff. Hell of a time for a bloke to find out he's way out of his depth in a certain position but it's done with now. On friday night I expect to see him line up in the guts and only leave the on ball possie to rotate on and off.

[1eyedog]

I'm not sure he will be a ball-winning midfielder anytime soon, if he can;t string games together how will he develop the cardiovascular required to play midfielde rin more than bursts? He probably doesn't have the explosive pace of a Griffen to play in bursts.
His finishing seems to be his best asset and he's decent overhead for his size. Probably more a Shannon Grant type.

Maybe, but I think you're selling him a bit short. Don't get me wrong Shag was a great player, you have to be to play 300 but IMO he got the best out of himself and maintained that level pretty much throughout his career. Grant never excelled in the midfield IMO. Higgins will be a Shannon Grant type player for the next 2 years but once he finds confidence in his abilities he COULD be an exceptional midfielder. So called footy experts have already earmarked him as a possible leader of the club and are already talking up his ability. It's pretty much up to him what he wants to be.

[bornadog]

I think Higgins has shown enough in the past to perserver with, however, I tend to agree with Mantis and JC that he should not have been considered for Friday night and should be dropped this week. He just is not ready to be playing finals football and seems lost out there.

Looking at the game, Eade tried to use the wings to get around the Cluster, which resulted in over use of the ball as Hawthorn seem to have us covered and when we switched to the corridor, we were surrounded and ended up handballing to players under pressure. We ended up with nearly 80 more disposals than Hawthorn (same against Adelaide), but we just didn't seem to get our run going and wasted our opportunities.

Hawthorn cleared out their forward 50 at each bounce with the entire backline up near the centre square and with just two players in the goal square, ie Franklin and either Morris or Lake. If we wanted to go a bit defensive, maybe we should have had a loose player in front of Franklin?

Lets hope we have learnt alot from this final and play a different brand of football this week.

[Mantis]

I think Higgins has shown enough in the past to perserver with, however, I tend to agree with Mantis and JC that he should not have been considered for Friday night and should be dropped this week. He just is not ready to be playing finals football and seems lost out there.

Looking at the game, Eade tried to use the wings to get around the Cluster, which resulted in over use of the ball as Hawthorn seem to have us covered and when we switched to the corridor, we were surrounded and ended up handballing to players under pressure. We ended up with nearly 80 more disposals than Hawthorn (same against Adelaide), but we just didn't seem to get our run going and wasted our opportunities.

Hawthorn cleared out their forward 50 at each bounce with the entire backline up near the centre square and with just two players in the goal square, ie Franklin and either Morris or Lake. If we wanted to go a bit defensive, maybe we should have had a loose player in front of Franklin?

Lets hope we have learnt alot from this final and play a different brand of football this week.

We did because Cross dropped back into this hole. It didn't work because Cross didn't use the ball well enough when he got it and Cross's opponent (Lewis) was allowed to run free through the middle of the ground.

[bornadog]

We did because Cross dropped back into this hole. It didn't work because Cross didn't use the ball well enough when he got it and Cross's opponent (Lewis) was allowed to run free through the middle of the ground.

Wrong player in the hole.

[The Underdog]

We did because Cross dropped back into this hole. It didn't work because Cross didn't use the ball well enough when he got it and Cross's opponent (Lewis) was allowed to run free through the middle of the ground.

He also didn't position himself anywhere near well enough to be consistently effective. He got caught out in the wrong spot too often.

[bornadog]

He also didn't position himself anywhere near well enough to be consistently effective. He got caught out in the wrong spot too often.

because he doesn't norma;lly play that role. Maybe Rob Murphy should have gone there.

[Mantis]

because he doesn't norma;lly play that role. Maybe Rob Murphy should have gone there.

The same Rob Murphy who will push very close to being an AA HF this year?

[dog town]

Easy thing to say after it has happened but Eade didn't have a great night. He will probably be aware of that but it doesn't really matter when your team is completely out worked for much of the night.

Hawthorn probably doubled our work rate. People say they were harder and they were but it was only marginal. The reason they won alot of clear ball from contested situations all over the ground is because they had more numbers and support around the ball. They always had a sweeper out the back and 3 or 4 guys offering support. When they broke from a contest they did t cleanly. When we somehow managed to get our hands on the ball from a 50/50 we were out numbered and forced to kick blindly.

In finals little thing turn into big things and it showed which side was better drilled at the little things. This might sound basic but I have always been taught that you recieve a handpass from behind the ball carrier. This means you can see all the play ahead, eliminates risk and also allows the handballer to follow you round and protect you from any opponents. The amount of times we handpassed to a guy that was already past the guy he was recieving it from was ridiculous. It resulted in probably dozens of turnovers. Just a very high risk and pointless way of doing it.

Lake probably should have played on Franklin but I wont criticise Eade for it because Morris was my first option as well.

Aker playing down back was a howler of a decision. We looked mildly capable of beating them when Aker was up forward.

Hill showed a bit I thought. He will be a pretty valuable asset in years to come with his overhead marking becoming a real handfull. I will also say that he failed to bodyline the ball a couple of times and took a sideways step which is something he needs to stamp out.

Ray was pretty ordinary. Not sure why people were expecting him to suddenly become the saviour simply because he has played one good finals game in the past. Cost us any early momentum by butchering some easy chnaces early then turned the ball over all night.

Cross, Lake and Guido all had a dip. So did Hargrave.

Minson tried all night but didn't have much luck. Got raped by Croad early and the umpire swallowed his whistle. I really think he gets a harsh run with the umpires at times.

Hahn was clearly struggling with his ribs.

[bornadog]

The same Rob Murphy who will push very close to being an AA HF this year?

Yep, the same Rob Murphy who has barely had a kick for 6 weeks and kicked zero goals.

[Happy Days]

Yep, the same Rob Murphy who has barely had a kick for 6 weeks and kicked zero goals.

His role isn't to kick goals, it's to lead up and take grabs so the players who do "kick goals" (Welsh, Minson) can have space to lead into, then to play on quickly so the aforementioned "goal kickers" can have first use of the ball.

And his past 6 weeks weren't that bad...he certainly hasn't been our worst.

[GetDimmaBack]

Originally Posted by mantis
Here are a few observations I made:

* When we ran out, through the warm-up and the national anthem we look scared. There was no confidence in our players appearance, we, as Eade mentioned looked over-awed.

* Our skill errors get to a point of almost being amusing. **** me, how many times did we hand the ball to the opposition on a platter. Gia, Eagleton (I'll get to him later), Ray, Cross, Murf, Higgins the list goes on. Not good enough boys, shit they only train every second day to play in games like these and when we get there we freeze.

* Too many of our player's go to ground in the contest, again not good enough.


* As we do when we are struggling we started bombing the ball into an out-numbered & out-sized forwardline, it's just plain silly. Hold onto the ball until a option present's and if one doesn't hug the boundary.


* Our tactics were bemusing, we picked an attacking team, but played defensively. Did he pick the right team to carry out his instrustions? I suppose do we have the right players to carry out these instructions?



Have also just had another look at the tape, and I must agree with what you've said Mantis.

IMO, all of the factors above are an indication of a lack of belief, in both themselves and each other. The Hawks had that belief and played accordingly. I'm not sure where - or why - that belief has disappeared, but it is a clear indication of the current mindset of the team. Earlier in the season, I just assumed we would win, because I knew the players believed they would. By the time the national anthem was finished on Friday night, it was obvious that the Hawks had already intimidated us and we were in trouble.

In light of that, I was even more impressed with Ryan Griffen. He took the Hawks on, used his body well and didn't look uncomfortable out there at any stage. Yes, we are looking for leaders, and I think he put up his hand for the captaincy when Johnno gives it away.

[BulldogBelle]

On another tangent, do we think Johnno will retain the captainship next season? Pushing 32, would it be in his interest and the clubs interest that he focused on getting his body 100% right, and concentrated on his own personal game, rather than bearing the captain/leaders role?

[1eyedog]

On another tangent, do we think Johnno will retain the captainship next season? Pushing 32, would it be in his interest and the clubs interest that he focused on getting his body 100% right, and concentrated on his own personal game, rather than bearing the captain/leaders role?

Mate, after watching Johnno's last eight weeks I am undecided whether he should even go on. He is giving us nothing and shirking contests. Very unusual.

[1eyedog]

I'm not sure he will be a ball-winning midfielder anytime soon, if he can;t string games together how will he develop the cardiovascular required to play midfielde rin more than bursts? He probably doesn't have the explosive pace of a Griffen to play in bursts.
His finishing seems to be his best asset and he's decent overhead for his size. Probably more a Shannon Grant type.

After stewing on this for a while I have concluded that if Higgins lays 300 games and kicks as many goals for us as Grant has done at Sydney and North I would be very happy.

[Mantis]

After stewing on this for a while I have concluded that if Higgins plays 300 games and kicks as many goals for us as Grant has done at Sydney and North I would be very happy.

What if Higgins kicks more goals than lays tackles, still happy?

[FrediKanoute]

This reeks of a real cop-out excuse to me from a coach who has no answer as to why the team performed the way they did. We smashed Collingwood in an Elimination final in 2006 in front of 10,000 more people at the same venue in a night game. We were even more outnumbered playing Collingwood than we were against Hawthorn. Doesn't make sense to me other than that the players were scared of quality opposition because of their recent poor form, however Eade has said time and again over the past 4 weeks that the players are confident in their ability.

Different team/different night.

Remember that team had Smith, West, Grant, Monty, Robbo.

Collingwood 2006 were nothing like Hawks 2008. Besides we have the wood on Collingwood!!!

[1eyedog]

What if Higgins kicks more goals than lays tackles, still happy?

Ultimately I would prefer Higgins as an attacking forward who kicks goals but also works hard on the defensive side of his game. I get your point, at present he doesn't. To answer your question, no, I would only be really happy with him if he understood the importance of defensive pressure. We have enough so-called attacking players who don't work hard enough going the other way. Hopefully down the track Higgins is more disciplined.

[bornadog]

His role isn't to kick goals, it's to lead up and take grabs so the players who do "kick goals" (Welsh, Minson) can have space to lead into, then to play on quickly so the aforementioned "goal kickers" can have first use of the ball.

And his past 6 weeks weren't that bad...he certainly hasn't been our worst.

Murphy in the last 6 weeks has been nowhere in the form he was in the first half of the year. Have alook at his stats, he has averaged 16 disposals a week in the past 6 weeks.

[Mantis]

Cross, Lake and Guido all had a dip. So did Hargrave.

Minson tried all night but didn't have much luck. Got raped by Croad early and the umpire swallowed his whistle. I really think he gets a harsh run with the umpires at times.

Hahn was clearly struggling with his ribs.

At the start of the 3rd qtr after we had kicked the first 2 goals and were gaining some momentum Hargrave did the following within about 5 min's:

1. Gave away a silly free kick 30m straight in front at a ruck contest - Goal to Osborne (his opponent)

2. 90 sec's later, allowed his opponent (Osborne) to get goal side of him deep in the pocket. His opponent ran into goal for easy goal, missed tackle by Callan on the way, but Callan had to leave his man to give Hargrave a chop out.

3. A couple of min's later Hargrave got involved in a wrestling match in the centre with Osborne and gave away another free kick.

Osborne also gave a couple of lace out passes to Buddy during this time, but one he dropped and the other resulted in a point.

[hujsh]

Collingwood 2006 were nothing like Hawks 2008. Besides we have the wood on Collingwood!!!

We do now but we'd been smashed the last time we played them.

[bornadog]

Clangers, Errors too many by a few players made a difference:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/stats-1.jpg

[Mantis]

^^^

2 error's for Cross. I must have watched a different game.

[bornadog]

^^^

2 error's for Cross. I must have watched a different game.

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/game_stats?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?

[mjp]

I don't disagree that Cross made some errors, but he was far from the problem...

[mjp]

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/game_stats?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?

Yes....but that is not a great stat. We won the ball - they put us under pressure - we kicked it to their lose man - they ran, carried and hit targets inside 50. The stoppage stat is a poor one as it is based on the possession that 'clears' the congestion, not the first effective possession that clears the pack.

Hawthorn - like Geelong - are only an average stoppage team...but both rate very highly in scores from stoppages....they understand what is important.

[Mantis]

I don't disagree that Cross made some errors, but he was far from the problem...

He was a big part of the problem. His performance reminded me of a few of the Port player's output in last years GF, except he showed a lot more ticker. Having watched the game a few times now it's probably the highest possession/ least influence on a match I've seen for a while.

[Sedat]

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/game_stats?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?
Not when it counted in the first half. I was sitting right in front of a TV monitor, saw the qtr time and half time stats come up, and they were dog ugly. Hawthorn had almost double the inside 50's, clearances and hard ball gets up to half time. We actually dominated general play for the majority of the 2nd half but by then, a) we were a mile behind and it was glorified junk time, and b) Hawthorn were nursing 3-4 injured players on the bench and had no rotations they could bring through.

[Go_Dogs]

Yes....but that is not a great stat. We won the ball - they put us under pressure - we kicked it to their lose man - they ran, carried and hit targets inside 50. The stoppage stat is a poor one as it is based on the possession that 'clears' the congestion, not the first effective possession that clears the pack.

Hawthorn - like Geelong - are only an average stoppage team...but both rate very highly in scores from stoppages....they understand what is important.

Yep, too true.

The Hawks 'balls to advantage' stats (ok there is no such thing, I made it up, but geez, handy stat :) ...) would look much better than ours. Stuff the errors and efficiency ratings, the majority of time they got the ball, they put it to a team mates advantage, or the teams advantage...we didn't.

As soon as we got caught out on a turnover all of our numbers were out of place, and no one was positioned to pressure going backwards.

In your expert opinion mjp, is this a structural problem, a work ethic problem or a more baffling combination effect?

[bornadog]

Not when it counted in the first half. I was sitting right in front of a TV monitor, saw the qtr time and half time stats come up, and they were dog ugly. Hawthorn had almost double the inside 50's, clearances and hard ball gets up to half time. We actually dominated general play for the majority of the 2nd half but by then, a) we were a mile behind and it was glorified junk time, and b) Hawthorn were nursing 3-4 injured players on the bench and had no rotations they could bring through.

and we still couldn't make any inroads.

[LostDoggy]

The crux of it all was a poor performance from the Coach, Friday night will tell us where we really sit

[bornadog]

Yes....but that is not a great stat. We won the ball - they put us under pressure - we kicked it to their lose man - they ran, carried and hit targets inside 50. The stoppage stat is a poor one as it is based on the possession that 'clears' the congestion, not the first effective possession that clears the pack.

Hawthorn - like Geelong - are only an average stoppage team...but both rate very highly in scores from stoppages....they understand what is important.

Exactly, what I was surprised about was winning the clearances then wasting it. We were the number one in goals from stoppages at one stage and we have to get back to doing that, this week orv we are gawn.

[bornadog]

The crux of it all was a poor performance from the Coach, Friday night will tell us where we really sit

Coaches can only do so much. If the team doesn't carry out the plan, not much you can do on the night.

[Mantis]

Coaches can only do so much. If the team doesn't carry out the plan, not much you can do on the night.

Further to that the coach can't do much when senior player's make simple skill error's time and time again by hand and foot. It also doesn't help when players who usually are clean with their hands fumble over and over again.

Personally I thought our set-up's weren't all that great the other night, but we could have gotten away with it if the player's had performed to level's he would have expected.