Our recent draftees, have they been given the best chance of making it?

[westdog54]

The thread title might seem oddly worded, so please bear with me as I don't want to confuse people as to what I am trying to get at here.

I was inspired by Dry Rot's thread on draft success rates and a line about facilities and infrastructure and the difference they make. This lead me to ask myself this question:

In the past few years we've gone from a coach who, well, you know, a tiny football department and facilities held together by gaffa tape to having a Football Manager, a great coach who is able to concentrate on coaching, a mini-army of assistants, training facilities that are the envy of many in the competition, but most importantly I feel, two (yes, count them, two) development coaches looking after our kids.

Given this new, improved structure, do the likes of Hill, Stack, Everitt, Grant, Boumann, Reid, O'Keefe etc stand a much better chance of developing into quality AFL standard footballers than guys like Walsh, Power, Faulkner and Skipper, and to a lesser extent Cooney, Griffen and Higgins (who had enough talent to make it no matter what happened)?

I know that with development there is a bit of a time lag of a couple of years and this will be hard to assess here and now, but is the future even a tiny bit brighter given what Cam Rose and David Smorgon have put in place in the football department?

[Desipura]

I look at it this way.........what would motivate you more?
Going to training in an old tin shed surrounded by 4 walls and old gym equipment with rats running around the place
or going to training in a new gym with the latest equipment that can monitor how hard you are working with city views running tracks etc etc etc

[bornadog]

Personally I feel we haven't given as many guys a go at the seniors. Hill had one game last year and Harbrow a handful and have been given plenty of game time. Ward and Reid debut but we haven't, as in previous years, given any talls a go at senior level. I know the Willy watchers will say, well they don't deserve a call up as they haven't played well. Why is that other teams seem to give their young talls a go, early in their career.

I feel that sometimes playing at a Willy level, compared to seniors, brings out more in a player, ie, playing at an elite level, it sort of rubs off on you and you lift your own standard. I just think we need to debut more of these draftees earlier and see what they are made of.

[westdog54]

Personally I feel we haven't given as many guys a go at the seniors. Hill had one game last year and Harbrow a handful and have been given plenty of game time. Ward and Reid debut but we haven't, as in previous years, given any talls a go at senior level. I know the Willy watchers will say, well they don't deserve a call up as they haven't played well. Why is that other teams seem to give their young talls a go, early in their career.

I feel that sometimes playing at a Willy level, compared to seniors, brings out more in a player, ie, playing at an elite level, it sort of rubs off on you and you lift your own standard. I just think we need to debut more of these draftees earlier and see what they are made of.

I think its fair to say that Grant would have likely played this year had he not been injured, don't be surprised to see him get a go early in the year if he's fit.

O'keefe by all accounts was very unlucky to miss out towards the end, I think we can be happy with his progress.

If Boumann is close by the end of next year I'll take that.

Re Everitt, Stake and O'Shea, can anyone else see the improved development structure bearing fruit in 12 months time? I know O'Shea is one some are looking at as being close to losing his spot but its food for thought.

[bornadog]

I think its fair to say that Grant would have likely played this year had he not been injured, don't be surprised to see him get a go early in the year if he's fit.

O'keefe by all accounts was very unlucky to miss out towards the end, I think we can be happy with his progress.

If Boumann is close by the end of next year I'll take that.

Re Everitt, Stake and O'Shea, can anyone else see the improved development structure bearing fruit in 12 months time? I know O'Shea is one some are looking at as being close to losing his spot but its food for thought.

OShea is still learning the game, he is from Queensland and hasn't played the game much, only 19 years old. I would stick him on the rookie list at this stage.

Everitt, with a decent preseason and some muscle will be very good, and Stack had a purple patch during the year and could have played, then he did his ankle and hasn't played as well since. Stack is about the same size as Hill and has a better leap.

I think Boumann is some one we really need to work on, he is 196cm and built like an athlete, needs to put on 15kg. can mark a ball, although his disposal needs working on.

Grant is not as tall as I thought at 192cm, needs to grow a few centmetres and put on some weight, but our no.1 draft pick, so hopefully can play early next year.

[Mantis]

Grant is not as tall as I thought at 192cm, needs to grow a few centmetres and put on some weight, but our no.1 draft pick, so hopefully can play early next year.

Do we have a stretching machine down at the club? Might be why he got OP, spent to much time being stretched.

FWIW Fev is 191cm, Pavlich is 192cm and Lloyd is 192cm.

[westdog54]

Do we have a stretching machine down at the club? Might be why he got OP, spent to much time being stretched.

FWIW Fev is 191cm, Pavlich is 192cm and Lloyd is 192cm.

192cm is by no means a bad size for a Key Forward. I think too many get sucked into the Franklin prototype for a key forward when in reality Franklin is a once in a lifetime freak of nature.

If his kicking was as consistent and accurate as he somehow pulled off on Friday night I would already consider him one of the greatest of all time, and chances are he'll get there anyway.

With Grant, when your hands are good overhead you don't rely as much on brute strength. He does need to put some muscle on but his hands will be his greatest asset.

[bornadog]

Do we have a stretching machine down at the club? Might be why he got OP, spent to much time being stretched.

FWIW Fev is 191cm, Pavlich is 192cm and Lloyd is 192cm.

Tiller is 191cm:D

I know 192cm is ok, I am sure he will grow a little more. Definately needs to put on 20kg.

[Mantis]

Tiller is 191cm:D

I know 192cm is ok, I am sure he will grow a little more. Definately needs to put on 20kg.

And I still think he will be ok as a forward option in a few years time. I think he has shown enough to suggest he might be able to fill the "Welsh" role.

[bornadog]

And I still think he will be ok as a forward option in a few years time. I think he has shown enough to suggest he might be able to fill the "Welsh" role.

agreed, again needs some muscle, and has shown a bit in the past.

[1eyedog]

OShea is still learning the game, he is from Queensland and hasn't played the game much, only 19 years old. I would stick him on the rookie list at this stage.

Everitt, with a decent preseason and some muscle will be very good, and Stack had a purple patch during the year and could have played, then he did his ankle and hasn't played as well since. Stack is about the same size as Hill and has a better leap.

I think Boumann is some one we really need to work on, he is 196cm and built like an athlete, needs to put on 15kg. can mark a ball, although his disposal needs working on.

Grant is not as tall as I thought at 192cm, needs to grow a few centmetres and put on some weight, but our no.1 draft pick, so hopefully can play early next year.

Big enough. I thought his name sake, the great man is 192cm? Am I wrong? I'll check TCD's spreadsheet......

[bornadog]

Big enough. I thought his name sake, the great man is 192cm? Am I wrong? I'll check TCD's spreadsheet......

193cm

[Mofra]

And I still think he will be ok as a forward option in a few years time. I think he has shown enough to suggest he might be able to fill the "Welsh" role.
Grant looks quicker on the lead than Welsh and his contested grabs (from the videos & Willy televised games) were far more likely to be jumping with/higher than an opponent (Welsh's seem to be either on the lead or through clever body positioning).

To be honest, Grant looks like the classic prototype of a player who has never had to work too hard to be better than anyone else on the paddock, and now finds himself needing to work hard just to make the grade (natural talent isn't enough at the highest level). He really looks to be a "boom or bust" type which I'm glad we took a chance on, rather than a late round "maybe he'll be ok" type.

[Mantis]

Grant looks quicker on the lead than Welsh and his contested grabs (from the videos & Willy televised games) were far more likely to be jumping with/higher than an opponent (Welsh's seem to be either on the lead or through clever body positioning).

To be honest, Grant looks like the classic prototype of a player who has never had to work too hard to be better than anyone else on the paddock, and now finds himself needing to work hard just to make the grade (natural talent isn't enough at the highest level). He really looks to be a "boom or bust" type which I'm glad we took a chance on, rather than a late round "maybe he'll be ok" type.

My comments were referring to Tiller whose named I had bolded.

[LostDoggy]

Personally I feel we haven't given as many guys a go at the seniors. Hill had one game last year and Harbrow a handful and have been given plenty of game time. Ward and Reid debut but we haven't, as in previous years, given any talls a go at senior level. I know the Willy watchers will say, well they don't deserve a call up as they haven't played well. Why is that other teams seem to give their young talls a go, early in their career.

I feel that sometimes playing at a Willy level, compared to seniors, brings out more in a player, ie, playing at an elite level, it sort of rubs off on you and you lift your own standard. I just think we need to debut more of these draftees earlier and see what they are made of.


I agree bornadog- the old cliche "never change a winning formula" (at least until midway of season for us this year) is misleading. With a team of 22 players in AFL, unlike the 11 of soccer etc. there is always going to be an opportunity to tinker at the fringes of team- thereby giving younger players a chance to unexpectedly shine- (not to mention sample a largely winning culture).
When games start to be lost late in the season selecting debutants can sometimes resemble acts of desperation. I think selectors have painted us into a corner in a sense....

[The Pie Man]

Grant looks quicker on the lead than Welsh and his contested grabs (from the videos & Willy televised games) were far more likely to be jumping with/higher than an opponent (Welsh's seem to be either on the lead or through clever body positioning).

To be honest, Grant looks like the classic prototype of a player who has never had to work too hard to be better than anyone else on the paddock, and now finds himself needing to work hard just to make the grade (natural talent isn't enough at the highest level). He really looks to be a "boom or bust" type which I'm glad we took a chance on, rather than a late round "maybe he'll be ok" type.

Are there concerns surrounding his attitude?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Are there concerns surrounding his attitude?

No.

Two years ago someone at Dandenong told us Everitt had an attitude porblem. We drafted him anyway and found his attitute to be first rate.

Then we were told Grant had an attitude problem but after a few good words from Everitt went ahead and drafted him anyway and his attitude has also been good with one small glitch (out after curfew, no alcohol involved).

Ironically, the Stingrays told us Boumann had the best attitude of the lot but he's the one who has had a few issues.

[SonofScray]

I always liked the idea that young, big forwards tend to play better at higher levels because the service is better. Some times if you leave them at the lower levels they just don't get that opportunity to acknowledge the speed of the game at AFL level and just how hard they have to work, if they learn that intensity early on and get good service and a bit of responsibility who knows what can happen?

I don't think I've ever really seen this theory tested a the Doggies so its useless, but it surely is better to have a go than spend 10+ years with nothing.

[bornadog]

I always liked the idea that young, big forwards tend to play better at higher levels because the service is better. Some times if you leave them at the lower levels they just don't get that opportunity to acknowledge the speed of the game at AFL level and just how hard they have to work, if they learn that intensity early on and get good service and a bit of responsibility who knows what can happen?

I don't think I've ever really seen this theory tested a the Doggies so its useless, but it surely is better to have a go than spend 10+ years with nothing.

Under Eade, ie from 2005 to now, how many talls have debut for the dogs?

I can only think of Wight, Tiller, Everitt. Thats not much in four years.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Under Eade, ie from 2005 to now, how many talls have debut for the dogs?

I can only think of Wight, Tiller, Everitt. Thats not much in four years.

Between them Skip Wight and Tiller have taken up 18 years of 'list space' for a combined total of 95 games. A hopeless misuse of resources.

[westdog54]

Between them Skip Wight and Tiller have taken up 18 years of 'list space' for a combined total of 95 games. A hopeless misuse of resources.

In fairness, Tiller was bottom-aged when drafted and is still developing. I'll pay Skipper and Wight but you're a bit rough on Tiller IMO.

[LostDoggy]

I look at it this way.........what would motivate you more?
Going to training in an old tin shed surrounded by 4 walls and old gym equipment with rats running around the place
or going to training in a new gym with the latest equipment that can monitor how hard you are working with city views running tracks etc etc etc


Don't get me wrong the new facilities will be great but does anyone remember North Melbourne in the nineties, just shows you don't need the latest and greatest, just a lot of hard work.

[mjp]

Forgetting facilities (particularly weights etc as they dont really matter), the biggest issue we have had - and are trying to address by getting Gotch and Dalrymple full-time - is around development coaches. That is where we have been left behind, and that is why I would agree - until now, our players haven't been given the best chance to succeed.

Mind you, they also need tools - particularly vision - to help teach and I guess that has been lacking as well, but coaches were the main short-coming...

[hujsh]

Under Eade, ie from 2005 to now, how many talls have debut for the dogs?

I can only think of Wight, Tiller, Everitt. Thats not much in four years.

And the champion Walsh.

How could you forget him:p

[bornadog]

And the champion Walsh.

How could you forget him:p

Was his debut under Eade?

[hujsh]

Was his debut under Eade?

I believe he played only one game and that was 05 vs the Roos

[Mofra]

I believe he played only one game and that was 05 vs the Roos
Yes, an output better than M.West & Wells, marginally behind Morgan and McDougall.

[LostDoggy]

With Grant next year would you throw him in the deep end for say 2 - 4 games in a row see how he goes from there. I mean you would need to play him as a lead up guy obviously as he still going to be undersized compared to the full bodied back man is there anything really to loose?

[Ozza]

I don't quite agree with the sentiments of having to 'blood' 18y/o's all the time. Sydney have had a great deal of success by playing their experienced players and very rarely debuting anyone under 20/21. Now that they are seemingly and gradually working their way away from an era of Grand finals and a premiership they are starting to look to the future - but I think when you're a top 4 team as we were this year - and would hope to be next year - you have to capitalise on the moment - and put the future on the backburner a little bit by playing only those that are ready and up to it.

[bornadog]

I don't quite agree with the sentiments of having to 'blood' 18y/o's all the time. Sydney have had a great deal of success by playing their experienced players and very rarely debuting anyone under 20/21. Now that they are seemingly and gradually working their way away from an era of Grand finals and a premiership they are starting to look to the future - but I think when you're a top 4 team as we were this year - and would hope to be next year - you have to capitalise on the moment - and put the future on the backburner a little bit by playing only those that are ready and up to it.

Except when you have injures, you need back up players.

[Cyberdoggie]

Under Eade, ie from 2005 to now, how many talls have debut for the dogs?

I can only think of Wight, Tiller, Everitt. Thats not much in four years.

This speaks more about Clayton than Eade.


Also regards to young forwards getting better more chances in high levels.
Williamstown seniors and reserves have been top of the tables all year. Reserves in particular handing out some large victories. I would of thought if you can't feature in those games than how would you achieve anything at the dogs?

Williamstown have been different to Werribee and have given the dogs players the priority in selections but the simple fact is our talls aren't good enough yet. O'shea is the leading goal scorer in the reserves and has played half in defence, but most people here would admit he's a total gumby at times. Bouman is 20cm taller than anyone at reserves level and should be dominating. He has started to show a bit towards the end of the season with 7 goals last week but isn't quite up to williamstown seniors level yet. Mulligan apparently can't take a mark over head, Shaw and Grant have been injured all year and the others are the same olds.

With Clayton leaving after this draft perhaps we will get a tall in 4 years time when they are big enough

[Cyberdoggie]

Forgetting facilities (particularly weights etc as they dont really matter), the biggest issue we have had - and are trying to address by getting Gotch and Dalrymple full-time - is around development coaches. That is where we have been left behind, and that is why I would agree - until now, our players haven't been given the best chance to succeed.

Mind you, they also need tools - particularly vision - to help teach and I guess that has been lacking as well, but coaches were the main short-coming...

There certainly is a much better focus on this area nowadays at the dogs.

All the players are monitored closely and are given good frank assessments of their performances.

I like Gotch's write up on the Willy boys in the last bugle. Seemed fairly honest to me, no cover up's or sugar coatings.

[Sockeye Salmon]

We have blooded 8 players* in the last two years, that would compare pretty favourably with most sides I would have thought.

*Harbrow, Williams, Hill, Everitt, Tiller, Lynch, Ward, Reid.

Williams and Everitt are genuine talls (when Everitt eventually puts some weight on), Tiller is a sort-of-tall-kinda.

[Ozza]

Except when you have injures, you need back up players.

Of course when you have injuries - thats a given really.
But this year, whilst I'm not sure how we finished up with the stat - I know that after round 15 - we'd used the least amount of players in the league. A sign of staying relatively injure free and running with a stable line up.