Forward Structures

[Go_Dogs]

Ok, so our backline looks the goods, the midfield is coming along nicely - but our forward line has crumbled badly the past few weeks.

The tell tale signs were there against Richmond - in that first 1/4, we could not get the ball into our forward line. There were no targets, seemingly no plan in effect as we moved the ball forward. No one staying at home, even though there was a whole heap of space to work into.

I only caught the first half of the game on the weekend, suffice to say that it wasn't looking much better.


What is our plan moving the ball foward? We want quick ball movement, but when we move it quickly we seem to have guys holding on to the ball forward of the centre because there are no options presenting up - meanwhile there are 3 defenders zoning off, dropping back and clogging the holes for our 'bomb out' option.

Yes, we needs forwards who work hard defensively up the ground - but we badly need some sort of defined structure, so when the turnovers occur, or when we can move the ball quickly, we have players who can move into the space and create options in the forward line.

Am I right? Am I missing something? :confused:

[azabob]

Ok, so our backline looks the goods, the midfield is coming along nicely - but our forward line has crumbled badly the past few weeks.

The tell tale signs were there against Richmond - in that first 1/4, we could not get the ball into our forward line. There were no targets, seemingly no plan in effect as we moved the ball forward. No one staying at home, even though there was a whole heap of space to work into.

I only caught the first half of the game on the weekend, suffice to say that it wasn't looking much better.


What is our plan moving the ball foward? We want quick ball movement, but when we move it quickly we seem to have guys holding on to the ball forward of the centre because there are no options presenting up - meanwhile there are 3 defenders zoning off, dropping back and clogging the holes for our 'bomb out' option.

Yes, we needs forwards who work hard defensively up the ground - but we badly need some sort of defined structure, so when the turnovers occur, or when we can move the ball quickly, we have players who can move into the space and create options in the forward line.

Am I right? Am I missing something? :confused:

Im no expert by any means or have a tatical footy brain like some on here but I think we are really really missing Rob Murphy. He leads up hard and presents really really well and is a good mark and just as good kick.
So basically IMO they guys who are playing forward are not leading or running hard enough into space like Murphy does. Once he comes back I think the other pieces you are talking about will fall into place.

[Before I Die]

We have a new forward coach who is recently retired from Sydney. I am not being critical of Paul Williams, but could we be going through a transition/learning curve phase regarding new forward setups.

[Mantis]

It doesn't help that our 'best 22' starting forwards are either out of touch or out of the team.

Johnson, Hahn & Minson and probably even Giansiracusa aren't exactly setting the world on fire and with Welsh & Murf out of the team our forwardline is struggling.

The disposal going forward hasn't been that great either which we know doesn't help our mid sized forwardline.

[wimberga]

Must say i agree with Bob Murphy. After watching the Weagles game, i felt like we missed Murphy most out of everyone. Yes we were getting beaten out of the middle, but Murphy, and more importantly his role that he doesbetter than any other, is the real link up between the midfield and attack. It just wasnt there on sunday!

[BulldogBelle]

When we go forward with long bombs, undersized guys like Johnson, Hahn (against a 6'4 defender) and Hill are always going to struggle

I think Rocket should consider Lake at CHF

With Lake standing next to Murphy, Johnson, Hahn and Welsh I think we would have a very formidable forward line

Tom Williams, Tiller, Shaggy and Dale Morris should be able to handle the opposition backs, with Tommy getting the oppositions forward line that Brian would usually take

We need to take a similar approach that we played with C.Grant in 97/98 with Lake and put him at CHF rather than CHB, sure Lake is no C.Grant, but we should choose to attack rather than defend

If he can get several contested marks and two goals a game out of Lake then i'll be happy

[hujsh]

When we go forward with long bombs, undersized guys like Johnson, Hahn (against a 6'4 defender) and Hill are always going to struggle

I think Rocket should consider Lake at CHF

With Lake standing next to Murphy, Johnson, Hahn and Welsh I think we would have a very formidable forward line

Tom Williams, Tiller, Shaggy and Dale Morris should be able to handle the opposition backs, with Tommy getting the oppositions forward line that Brian would usually take

We need to take a similar approach that we played with C.Grant in 97/98 with Lake and put him at CHF rather than CHB, sure Lake is no C.Grant, but we should choose to attack rather than defend

If he can get several contested marks and two goals a game out of Lake then i'll be happy

But the point of Tommy and Brian together is that we have a proper structure and some balance for the opposition tall forwards. Brian up forward will be far less effective, giving only a minor boost to the forwards for a huge loss up back.

IMO there's a reason he's often considered our most important player and it's not because of any potential he might have up forward.

[Rocket Science]

Agreed...we're only just entering the realm of having a stable, settled and most importantly balanced (height-wise) backline, a luxury we haven't been able to sit back and admire for more years than I'd care to reflect upon, and which'll hopefully be worth ten times it's weight in premiership silver come September.

I'd rather not see that fecked with.

We've become pretty adept at making unorthodox forward set-ups work for us over recent seasons and frustrating as it can be on occasion I suspect we can persist with that for a short while longer until the cavalry arrives in the form of Grant and Cordy.

[LostDoggy]

I would have to agree with Rocket Science, Lake needs to stay in the back six for defensive balance. Also did you see him play forward last year...(the horror!!) He is probably the best contested mark in the team but just not a goal kicker.

I think that Murphy will make a huge difference if he is fit when he comes back. With his ability to read the play and lead onto the ball and his pace he is just too quick for most defenders. Because of his balance he has the ability to take the mark, play on, and then with his skills he can deliver to Johnno, Hahn, Welsh, Gia, Acker, Higgins on the lead. We really miss that at the moment.

Simply put we are not a top four threat without him IMO.

I guess we are hoping the Grant can grow into that role, but the question may be on his disposal, the hands and pace are certainly there.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would not move Lake forward.

That's like the old bulldog way of plugging holes by playing players out of position.

Lock down the back 6. Or at least 5.
Lake, Morris, Hargreave, Williams and Gilbee lock in week in week out.
6th spot is flexible. Callan, Tiller, Everitt, Addison etc.

And build from there.

We've had no trouble building scores, we just aren't a team that can prosper with long inaccurate bombs into the forward line. Hill can take a great contested mark if he can get a run up. but he can't out muscle a key defender. He needs to keep moving, not prop in the square.
Grant will be a similar player for a while 'til he bulks up. ( Looks like he's starting to too).

If our mid field is smart and skilled and our forwards keep moving we're ok. I wouldn't be against playing Grant regularly either. He strikes me as the type to rise to the level of the competition if he's there.

[Go_Dogs]

It doesn't help that our 'best 22' starting forwards are either out of touch or out of the team.

Johnson, Hahn & Minson and probably even Giansiracusa aren't exactly setting the world on fire and with Welsh & Murf out of the team our forwardline is struggling.

The disposal going forward hasn't been that great either which we know doesn't help our mid sized forwardline.

I'm more suggesting it's a structural issue perhaps, rather than a personnel one.

This can also help explain the poor disposal into the forward line - if you running forward at a million miles an hour, have a lot of pressure around you, and not a single target up field, it doesn't leave players with many options.

[Mantis]

I'm more suggesting it's a structural issue perhaps, rather than a personnel one.

This can also help explain the poor disposal into the forward line - if you running forward at a million miles an hour, have a lot of pressure around you, and not a single target up field, it doesn't leave players with many options.

The structure isn't really go to improve until we add a couple of talls to the mix.

[Go_Dogs]

The structure isn't really go to improve until we add a couple of talls to the mix.

I understand the point, but what about instructing a few guys stay put in the forward line and not flood so far up the field. Just allow someone, anyone, to be there to lead up/contest etc.

Perhaps I'm making mountains out of molehills...

[Mantis]

I understand the point, but what about instructing a few guys stay put in the forward line and not flood so far up the field. Just allow someone, anyone, to be there to lead up/contest etc.

Perhaps I'm making mountains out of molehills...

I think it just comes down to the way modern footy is being played .ie. zoning/ flooding.

However many forwards we play inside our forward 50 we will find that most teams will have a couple more players compared to us. If we use the ball well and hit our leading targets we will work our way through it, however if we kick long to our out-numbered forwards we are going to struggle.

[bornadog]

I would not move Lake forward.

That's like the old bulldog way of plugging holes by playing players out of position.

Lock down the back 6. Or at least 5.
Lake, Morris, Hargreave, Williams and Gilbee lock in week in week out.
6th spot is flexible. Callan, Tiller, Everitt, Addison etc.

And build from there. .

I agree, Lake has been moved forward a couple of times, (refer last Sunday for example) and he looks completely lost.

[LostDoggy]

I am surprised Jarrad Grant's name hasn't appeared in this thread.
Everyone seems to be regarding him as a skinny project player who could only hover around the flanks, pockets and get a few touches until he turns into son of godzilla after 6 months weight training on herbal steroids.
Give the guy a go I say. Remember Chris Grant aged 18!
Need to get some forward marking power/prowess ASAP.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Play him I reckon.

[Cyberdoggie]

I am surprised Jarrad Grant's name hasn't appeared in this thread.
Everyone seems to be regarding him as a skinny project player who could only hover around the flanks, pockets and get a few touches until he turns into son of godzilla after 6 months weight training on herbal steroids.
Give the guy a go I say. Remember Chris Grant aged 18!
Need to get some forward marking power/prowess ASAP.

There are many pro's and con's with playing him at the moment,

I'm guessing the main reason, as per Mantis's post is that with modern footy a tall forward is often outnumbered at contests, and Grant with his fragile and tiny frame won't have much success against it.

If we can get Murphy, Welsh, Hahn, Johnno all in the team together, then Grant might prove more effective an option to work with them. However if he is basically by himself then perhaps it might slow his progress.

At the moment he still has plenty to work on at Williamstown. Most of all his fitness, strength and consistency.