Carlton game - character defining?

[Mofra]

This is it.

We have had two trips to Perth, our best midfielder (Cooney) uncertain to play, and certainly not at 100% if he does. Our best lead up forward (Bob Quigley) is just getting back into the swing of things. Lake has a virus. Carton will be at full strength.

These are the games we must take if we are to move from "possible" to "probable" challenger. Carlton have a formidable midfield on paper, a 99 goal a year forward in Brendan Dickhead, will be on the rebound after two stinging losses and they have their former ASIC-charged cartel boss on his deathbed, so will be fired up.

I expect this week more than any other thus far this season will efine the character of the team. This really should have been drummed home as a must win game to the guys who run out on Sunday. Johnno must lift, lead from the front. Boyd needs to get back to his best, Hill needs to chase both ways and the rucks must be switched onto second efforts if we are to win the clearances.

This is it.

[LostDoggy]

If the dogs can't beat Carlton, then they are not Premiership contenders.

[Mantis]

If the dogs can't beat Carlton, then they are not Premiership contenders.

I thought premierships were handed out in September and not April... How silly of me.:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Yes you are silly

[The Coon Dog]

If the dogs can't beat Carlton, then they are not Premiership contenders.

Nonsense & the sort of post school kids think of. Last season Richmond who were terrible, defeated Hawthorn who went on to become premiers & I'm sure there have been other such scenarios over the years. did anyone at that time say 'Hawthorn can't even beat Richmond therefore they can't be premiership contenders?'

[bornadog]

If the dogs can't beat Carlton, then they are not Premiership contenders.

Definitely the sort of game we must win to finish in the top four.

[LostDoggy]

I want to win this gave very badly the team has not beaten Carlton in 2 years. We need to make this a must win game and give the Blues a touch up !

[LostDoggy]

Nonsense & the sort of post school kids think of. Last season Richmond who were terrible, defeated Hawthorn who went on to become premiers & I'm sure there have been other such scenarios over the years. did anyone at that time say 'Hawthorn can't even beat Richmond therefore they can't be premiership contenders?'


Well in my oh so humble opinion, if the dogs can't beat Carlton, (a team they should beat), then I have not much faith of them winning a Premiership this year. It's just not good enough if they lose to teams like the Blues.

But hey if you're willing to accept losing to Carlton as okay, then you go right ahead.

[The Coon Dog]

But hey if you're willing to accept losing to Carlton as okay, then you go right ahead.

Don't put words in my mouth Dexter! I didn't say that, so stop trying to be malicious, please.

[LostDoggy]

Yes Mr. Coon Dog.

[Ozza]

I'm a bit torn on this one. I don't think if we lose then we aren't premiership contenders - but having said that - it is a must win game. Particularly for the confidence of the midfield. The mids were smashed last week - and are up against a handy midfield this week.

Going 4-1 will be a huge bonus also - it will set us apart from quite a few teams - whereas 3-2 and we're very much in the pack. I think its a huge game.

[LostDoggy]

I'm a bit torn on this one. I don't think if we lose then we aren't premiership contenders - but having said that - it is a must win game. Particularly for the confidence of the midfield. The mids were smashed last week - and are up against a handy midfield this week.

Going 4-1 will be a huge bonus also - it will set us apart from quite a few teams - whereas 3-2 and we're very much in the pack. I think its a huge game.

I'm with you Ozza. I won't think it's the end of our premiership hopes if we lose on Sunday, but I certainly wouldn't be happy with a loss. Though it usually depends on what type of loss. Sometimes you just come up against a superior skilled side - which is not what I think happened last weekend. If the effort and endeavour is there, I believe our team is more skilled and experienced than Carlton and we should win (but I thought the same thing against the Weagles and our team just couldn't do it).

[bornadog]

Take it this way, I will be more upset at losing this one compared to last week. I hate Carlton and their arrogant supporters, so would love a win.

[aker39]

Take it this way, I will be more upset at losing this one compared to last week. I hate Carlton and their arrogant supporters, so would love a win.

Exactly.

I have remained silent in relation to Dick Pratt this week out of respect to him & his family, but he really is just another cheating Carlton president.

C'mon dogs, lets beat those cheating bastards.

Chris Judd - Visy ambassador - pfffft

[Happy Days]

Nonsense & the sort of post school kids think of. Last season Richmond who were terrible, defeated Hawthorn who went on to become premiers & I'm sure there have been other such scenarios over the years. did anyone at that time say 'Hawthorn can't even beat Richmond therefore they can't be premiership contenders?'

I take a bit of offence with that TCD :p

[LostDoggy]

I hate Carlton, they are so cocky and full of themselves, they don't even see what their club had done in the past as wrong. A culture of do anything to win - please dogs knock them off.:mad:

[LostDoggy]

I would be moderately distressed if we could not beat the CFC (Corporate F****** Criminals) on Sunday!

[The Coon Dog]

I take a bit of offence with that TCD :p

Why, do you resemble that remark? ;)

[AndrewP6]

I'm worried about this game...agree with the sentiment that it is an important game (even if it's only April) and that terrible letdown vs Carlton last year lingers in my memory. Won't necessarily define the season, but will be important to win it. Which makes me wonder again why there's been so many calls to just throw in players untried in the big league...

Did I mention I can't stand Judd, Fev and the Blues overall???

[The Pie Man]

With Pratt's illness and our returning from Perth, it doesn't bode well. We SHOULD still win, but it's not beyond comprehension that this might be a bad patch for us.

What's the saying in tennis grand slams....you can't win the tournament in the first week, but you can certainly lose it. Would much prefer being 4-1 when meeting St Kilda.

After we beat Hawthorn in Launceston last year, I was convinced we had them covered, and was really comfortable meeting them and not the perceived 'Federer' of the draw in the finals. How wrong was I? They turned out to be Nadal (I've really got to lay off the tennis metaphors...)

[Happy Days]

Why, do you resemble that remark? ;)

At least one half of it ;)

[MrMahatma]

This is an 8 point game. We need to be winning these to make the top 4.

[alwaysadog]

Of course it would be nice to win but how insecure are we getting? Talk about nervous Nellies; this week's game is not a premiership defining moment.. in fact it is far too premature to be thinking premiership.

I was the person who didn't think our form was crash hot against Freo and I don't think it has been since because I suspect we have learnt from the last two seasons and we are not planning to peak early this year.

We were short two of our very best players in Coons and Bob Quigley last week and while one might return this week I doubt he will be ready to make much of an impact.

A good team with a chance improves throughout the year. I'll be watching for signs that past lessons have not just been learned but that we have overcome some of the deficiencies.

IMHO we should be enjoying going to every game thinking we have a chance to win, that hasn't happened too often in the past and looking for improvements in team structure and personnel.

If Grant plays it will be a chance to measure how close he is to being able to make an impact and if our perennial lack of height up forward is getting any closer to being resolved.

Much to look forward to.

[The Underdog]

I actually don't think we particularly deserve to be favourites in this game. Carlton have a full strength midfield while we're missing our most dynamic midfielder and while Cross and Boyd can be relied upon each week and Higgins has had a very good start to the year, Griffen is still somewhat inconsistent and our next tier probably isn't as deep as Carlton's rotation at the moment. I feel fairly confident our backs can match their forwards pound for pound and while their backline isn't anything to write home about our forward line hasn't seemed to have any real structure or consistency to it apart from a piling on in the last quarter against Freo and some patches against Richmond. We also can't realistically expect a lot out of Murphy and Grant. They'd also be fairly confident about their chances after beating us twice in a row.
Carlton aren't a Geelong or Hawthorn yet but they are dangerous and we'll need to be on our game and beating them in the midfield to have a chance.
As to character defining, i'd argue that it does go a long way to saying that we're a serious threat and would be a confidence builder.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I think our last 2 games against the Blues we went in 'lazy'.

I think the supporters and the players expected to win right up to the final siren when we suddenly realised we had, in fact, lost.

[Mofra]

I actually don't think we particularly deserve to be favourites in this game.
I don't think we are in the betting as of this morning.

This is exactly the sort of game we used to try and make excuses for losing for, before the game had even started. We need to show the club culture of "near enough is good enough" is gone. I still think this is a very important game.

[The Underdog]

I don't think we are in the betting as of this morning.

This is exactly the sort of game we used to try and make excuses for losing for, before the game had even started. We need to show the club culture of "near enough is good enough" is gone. I still think this is a very important game.

I agree that if we lose the outside perception will drop from most considering us to be a serious contender to "same old Bulldogs, no key forward, no premiership" type headlines. I don't know whether this necessarily has an effect within the ranks but definitely we'll be seen as less threatening if we blow it.

[Mantis]

I actually don't think we particularly deserve to be favourites in this game. Carlton have a full strength midfield while we're missing our most dynamic midfielder and while Cross and Boyd can be relied upon each week and Higgins has had a very good start to the year, Griffen is still somewhat inconsistent and our next tier probably isn't as deep as Carlton's rotation at the moment. I feel fairly confident our backs can match their forwards pound for pound and while their backline isn't anything to write home about our forward line hasn't seemed to have any real structure or consistency to it apart from a piling on in the last quarter against Freo and some patches against Richmond. We also can't realistically expect a lot out of Murphy and Grant. They'd also be fairly confident about their chances after beating us twice in a row.
Carlton aren't a Geelong or Hawthorn yet but they are dangerous and we'll need to be on our game and beating them in the midfield to have a chance.
As to character defining, i'd argue that it does go a long way to saying that we're a serious threat and would be a confidence builder.

To do what??

Pick up up 25+ touches (questions marks on if they actually hurt the opposition with half of these) and play wide of your opponent. I think they have a pretty cushy position within the side and need to do more.

And yes they are both averaging 'X' amount of possessions per game and Boydy has picked up 'Y' amount of votes in the Marmo, but I think they can do more.

[bornadog]

To do what??

Pick up up 25+ touches (questions marks on if they actually hurt the opposition with half of these) and play wide of your opponent. I think they have a pretty cushy position within the side and need to do more.

And yes they are both averaging 'X' amount of possessions per game and Boydy has picked up 'Y' amount of votes in the Marmo, but I think they can do more.

Cross's kicking really dissapoints me, he never really hurts the opposition.

[Mantis]

This is exactly the sort of game we used to try and make excuses for losing for, before the game had even started. We need to show the club culture of "near enough is good enough" is gone. I still think this is a very important game.

Let me get this straight.

On one hand you want us to change the culture by not putting up with close enough is good enough.... Which is fair enough.

But on the other hand you take a swipe at those who have had enough of one particular player who consistently let's us down under pressure.

Do you want your cake or would you prefer to eat it?

[The Underdog]

To do what??

Pick up up 25+ touches (questions marks on if they actually hurt the opposition with half of these) and play wide of your opponent. I think they have a pretty cushy position within the side and need to do more.

And yes they are both averaging 'X' amount of possessions per game and Boydy has picked up 'Y' amount of votes in the Marmo, but I think they can do more.

I think of our mids, Cross and Boyd give a more consistently reliable effort than most. Neither are particularly quick or skillful and I take on board your criticism that they play wide of their opponents (if AFL midfielders know who their opponents are these days), but they also win the majority of our in and under ball at stoppages, which I'd argue is one of their primary jobs in our midfield structure. Where we struggle is losing an explosive guy like Cooney which we don't have depth of on our list.
Admittedly I'd like to see Cross turn his kicking around but that's unlikely to happen at this stage and is partially offset by the number of marks he takes dropping back in the hole in the backline.
I'd argue that their position isn't cushy, more that they've attained it through working harder than others and until someone comes along with better skills and a better work ethic then they'll keep those spots. Can they do some things better? Sure, but they also do most things well above the level of at least half the side.

[Mofra]

On one hand you want us to change the culture by not putting up with close enough is good enough.... Which is fair enough.

But on the other hand you take a swipe at those who have had enough of one particular player who consistently let's us down under pressure.

Do you want your cake or would you prefer to eat it?
Chalk & cheese.

There is a difference between not accepting a loss and outright vilification (not merely criticism) of a player who has been marked much harder than almost any other over the course of his career.

Surely that's not that difficult a concept to understand?

[LostDoggy]

We played Carlton after we lost to Geelong last year, and it was the start of our slump.

We don't appear to have played Carlton early when we are playing sensational football, and now we are playing them again with our best player out, and arguable one of our best three players just coming back in not expected to be at his best.

[LostDoggy]

Of course it would be nice to win but how insecure are we getting? Talk about nervous Nellies; this week's game is not a premiership defining moment.. in fact it is far too premature to be thinking premiership.

I was the person who didn't think our form was crash hot against Freo and I don't think it has been since because I suspect we have learnt from the last two seasons and we are not planning to peak early this year.

We were short two of our very best players in Coons and Bob Quigley last week and while one might return this week I doubt he will be ready to make much of an impact.

A good team with a chance improves throughout the year. I'll be watching for signs that past lessons have not just been learned but that we have overcome some of the deficiencies.
IMHO we should be enjoying going to every game thinking we have a chance to win, that hasn't happened too often in the past and looking for improvements in team structure and personnel.
If Grant plays it will be a chance to measure how close he is to being able to make an impact and if our perennial lack of height up forward is getting any closer to being resolved.

Much to look forward to.

Totally agree, it's great to now go to a game knowing we have as much of a chance of winning as the other side - as a side we have improved out of sight and there is still much room for more - what a fantastic thought :) Let's try and stay positive people!

[Remi Moses]

The biggest load of tripe Iv'e heard is carlton doing it for the colluding cheat. The guy robbed us blind 700 million and should be sitting in a cell in Barwon.You and I rip off the country and do time yet he gets a fine.What's next week doing it for the misstress or wife .
Fire up fellas pleeeeeeeeeeeease!

[Dogs 24/7]

Chalk & cheese.

There is a difference between not accepting a loss and outright vilification (not merely criticism) of a player who has been marked much harder than almost any other over the course of his career.

Surely that's not that difficult a concept to understand?

Mofra I agree with everything you have said. Eagleton is marked harder than he should be.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Most of the side hasn't been performing well enough. That includes the likes of Cross, Gia, Johnson, Hahn and Griffen.

The back half has been pretty solid but we certainly need a lift from the midfield and of course the forward line.

I'm losing patience with Hahn and Johnno at the moment - both are passive, whilst Cross' disposal really has been dreadful so far this season. The guy works hard - no doubting that, but too often he misses a target and too often he's the player delivering the football.

Hopefully we can begin to improve starting Sunday.

We're desperate for some strength, structure and leadership in the forward half though.

[Scorlibo]

To do what??

Pick up up 25+ touches (questions marks on if they actually hurt the opposition with half of these) and play wide of your opponent. I think they have a pretty cushy position within the side and need to do more.

And yes they are both averaging 'X' amount of possessions per game and Boydy has picked up 'Y' amount of votes in the Marmo, but I think they can do more.

I do not object to your criticism of Cross' influence with the ball, too often in general play does he take the easy option and kick backwards or sideways, but his role in and around the stoppages is so critical, and when playing that role, many actions he takes go unnoticed and are mostly handballs. Boyd is however largely creative with the ball these days, for this he cannot be criticised.

As for "play wide of your opponent", you and I both know that that is crap Mantis, Boyd and Cross are two of the greatest defensive presences in our side.

[LostDoggy]

I do not object to your criticism of Cross' influence with the ball, too often in general play does he take the easy option and kick backwards or sideways, but his role in and around the stoppages is so critical, and when playing that role, many actions he takes go unnoticed and are mostly handballs. Boyd is however largely creative with the ball these days, for this he cannot be criticised.

As for "play wide of your opponent", you and I both know that that is crap Mantis, Boyd and Cross are two of the greatest defensive presences in our side.

Lets also acknowledge his marking which has been very good over the last couple of years.

[Mantis]

I do not object to your criticism of Cross' influence with the ball, too often in general play does he take the easy option and kick backwards or sideways, but his role in and around the stoppages is so critical, and when playing that role, many actions he takes go unnoticed and are mostly handballs. Boyd is however largely creative with the ball these days, for this he cannot be criticised.

As for "play wide of your opponent", you and I both know that that is crap Mantis, Boyd and Cross are two of the greatest defensive presences in our side.

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair.

My concern with Cross's disposal has more to do in open play. Too many times he stops and props and then delivers backwards by hand. He is the biggest killer of forward momentum in our team. Through his hard running he is able to get himself in some great positions to receive the ball, but rather than taking the game on he, as you say he takes the 'safe' or 'easy' option. Boyd's use of the handball has become more creative which has been beneficial to our performance.

The accountability of both is a concern for me. I never really know who they are matched up on, but I guess that maybe just modern footy.

Both have in the past played 'lock down' roles, personally I don't think they sacrifice their own games enough nowadays. Perhaps they aren't asked too anymore, but I would have thought that Boyd would have tried to play a little closer to Kerr last week seeing as though Kerr is the Eagles best player, but maybe he was asked to play him in a head to head role rather than a close tag, anyway it didn't work.

[strebla]

I think along the lines of quite a few here premierships are not won or lost in March or April but in August and September. Get games into the kids early have a look at them allow Ego a chance to prove a lot of us wrong and try and have your best 28 up and running when it counts. It is good to win now against everyone but is not the be all and end all