Changes for Round 6

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I only heard the game on the radio, haven't seen and don't plan on watching the TV replay, but it's interesting that Skipper,O'Keefe and Reid all featured in the bests for Willy today.

From the radio it sounded like there were several whose names I hardly heard called

Ins: Aker, O'keefe, Cooney.
Out: Ward, Grant, Hahn

[LostDoggy]

Picken would have to be an out. Williams is lucky he is 6ft 5', because he was very average (again). Minson will be gone as soon as Roughead shows some form.

[LostDoggy]

Why do you want to drop Ward if you haven't seen the game?
Grant yes
Hahn maybe
Eagleton should be dropped
Shaggy needs to pick up his intensity as does Gia both ran around in 2nd gear.

[azabob]

Why do you want to drop Ward if you haven't seen the game?
Grant yes
Hahn maybe
Eagleton should be dropped
Shaggy needs to pick up his intensity as does Gia both ran around in 2nd gear.

Why drop the "Skinny white hope"? He didnt do much but seriously the midfield was terrible today. Hahn needs to be dropped, I would keep both Grant & Ward in. Maybe drop Hudson or Minson.
Why start Gilbee forward, why play Griffen forward? Seriously Gilbee was shocking today if anyone ran around in second gear it was him.

[Scraggers]

I wouldn't drop Grant ... give him a couple of games to find his feet.

Minson had 9 contested posessions today the most of any player he deserves another week.

Eagleton was not our worst today by a long way ...

I think Mitch Hahn needs some confidence ... give him a run in the twos

Out :- Hahn, Ward (unlucky - but only If Cooney is fit)
In :- Akermanis, Cooney (If fit)

[Rance Fan]

What did Eagleton do?? he must go. Ward needs a run in the twos. Give Grant a few chances. @ weeks in a row Gia has done nothing id drop him also.
really most of the side was ordinary....no run no pressure...
Hill,Higgins,Williams,Morris,Picken, Johnno only players in my opinion that were good or tried hard....

Honestly to many bystanders, a week or two ago i thought we would beat Saints, but from what i saw today we will lose by over 50. Our game or skillful running tough smart football was no where to be seen today!

[doggystyle]

What did Eagleton do?? he must go. Ward needsa run in the twos. Give Grant a few chances. @ weeks in a row Gia has done nothing id drop him also.
really most of the side was ordinary....no run no pressure...
Hill,Higgins,Williams,Morris,Picken,Johnno only players in my opinion that were good or tried hard....

Honestly to many bystanders, a week or two ago i thought we would beat Saints, but from what i saw today we will lose by over 50. Our game or skillful running tough smart football was no where to be seen today!
Why so hard on Eagleton?

[Scraggers]

What did Eagleton do?? he must go. Ward needsa run in the twos. Give Grant a few chances. @ weeks in a row Gia has done nothing id drop him also.
really most of the side was ordinary....no run no pressure...
Hill,Higgins,Williams,Morris,Picken,Johnno only players in my opinion that were good or tried hard....

Honestly to many bystanders, a week or two ago i thought we would beat Saints, but from what i saw today we will lose by over 50. Our game or skillful running tough smart football was no where to be seen today!

He had 15 disposals today (7 of them contested) ... that's more than Addison(6), Gilbee(14), Grant(8), Hahn(11), Harbrow(12), Minson(12), Morris(6), Murphy(13), Ward(8), and Williams(10) ... plus importantly it's 3 more than Nick Stevens who he played on for most of the game

[LostDoggy]

Hahn's performance was down but we wont just drop him off the back of 1 game..

Maybe Harbrow out, didn't do a great job on Betts..

Looking forward to a Coon & Aker return

In: Coon,Aker
Out: Grant,Harbrow/Ward

[lemmon]

Why do you want to drop Ward if you haven't seen the game?
Grant yes
Hahn maybe
Eagleton should be dropped
Shaggy needs to pick up his intensity as does Gia both ran around in 2nd gear.

Ward has to be dropped, really dissapointed with his workrate. Needs to learn to gut run.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

I'd definatly drop Harbrow not sure who else.
Can anyone tell me where Tim Callan is at? Did he play from Willy? Need h9is hardness back. How did Everitt go? What about Stotty Welsh, did he play?

[lemmon]

I'd definatly drop Harbrow not sure who else.
Can anyone tell me where Tim Callan is at? Did he play from Willy? Need h9is hardness back. How did Everitt go? What about Stotty Welsh, did he play?

Everitt, Callan and Welsh all played at Willi.
Welsh looked a class above in tough conditions, didnt see much of the game and from what I saw he didnt get a lot but what he did was very good.
Callan is ready to play as is Everitt and they were both good for Willi. Cant really judge there games, the conditions were terrible but they were both fairly good.
All three are ready for selection.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Why do you want to drop Ward if you haven't seen the game?
Grant yes
Hahn maybe
Eagleton should be dropped
Shaggy needs to pick up his intensity as does Gia both ran around in 2nd gear.

I listened to it on radio, he did not feature prominently, made a couple of errors and he has only just been going the last couple of games. O'Keefe has been performing very well for Willy.

Eagleton did OK from the sound of it, and did a job on Stevens who only had 12 touches.
Gia was named in our best, and at least seemed to A) take his shots on goal, & B) hit targets.

Shaggy has been one of our best performers for the season. Not his fault our pressure further up the ground saw him and our other defenders on the receiving end of Carlton ball wtih regularity.

[bulldogtragic]

In: Cooney, Aker and Welsh

Out: Ward, Harbrow/Picken and Grant

[Bomberdog]

Picken would have to be an out. Williams is lucky he is 6ft 5', because he was very average (again). Minson will be gone as soon as Roughead shows some form.

Are you joking about Picken?? I hope that you are.

[Bomberdog]

I'd definatly drop Harbrow not sure who else.
Can anyone tell me where Tim Callan is at? Did he play from Willy? Need h9is hardness back. How did Everitt go? What about Stotty Welsh, did he play?

Did you go to the game? Harbrow did a pretty good job. Mitch Hahn is the one to go. He had a woeful month of footy.

[soupman]

Maybe Harbrow out, didn't do a great job on Betts..


Why would you think this? With the delivery and way the footy was always down there, I would expect Betts to get a bit of it. Harbrow did some very good spoils, gave some run and only made one error in that he didn't anticipate Betts coming back in board from the boundary and completely missed the tackle.

For me, Ward is the only definite out. He frustrates the hell out of me. How often does he get caught trying to break tackles. He tries to do it every time and he isn't big enough yet. But my biggest gripe with him is that he never, ever accelerates. When he gets the footy he maintains his pace, which means he is always caught. When he gets it, what he needs to do is go full pace for 5 steps, then steady, much like what Harbrow does. He has the pace to do this, and I believe it would make a major difference to his performance.

For example, currently when he gets the footy he takes it at good speed, and tries to run in between two players, only to be tackled and called holding the ball. He makes this easy because his pace sees him caught as he reaches them, if he ccelerates he gets through there, and they are forced to tackle him as he is passing them, which believe me is a lot harder and gives him a greater chance of getting the hands out.

This weeks changes should be based on fitness, becuase the thing that was lacking today wasn't ability, but effort. I'm not sure if fatigue came into play, but we certainly didn't work nearly as hard as Carlton did. Carlton ran in numbers, they provided options upfield, running past and backwards. They dominated through the middle, always getting players loose. And they always managed to get back in time to cover their opponents. We did none of these.

We played through the wings, we continually lacked targets to kick to up forward, we had no run from behind, we didn't man up or run back as hard as we needed to, and our defensive pressure was shithouse. The amount of times in the first half that guys like Johnno didn't bother chasing or just manning up in the centre corridor was ridiculous. We need to be, and are, better than that. But we've got to work hard to do so.

The only other candidate I can find to be dropped though would be Grant, and I wouldn't want to anyway. I want to see him given a couple of games first.

All the following were very poor, but won't be dropped due to their standing in the side: Hahn (though he showed some signs of form in the first half), Gilbee, Shaggy and Lake.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Callan has to come in.

If he's under done - so be it.

Harbrow got killed today and is no defensive player.

If we drop Grant I'll be livid.

IN: Aker, Cooney, Callan
OUT: Hahn, Ward, Harbrow

[bulldogtragic]

Interestingly, after the match Johno was asked about young talls and out future as we need them. Johno said we had them and expected things of Grant and that Roughead could hold down CHF for us.

Found that an interesting response.

[LostDoggy]

Why would you think this? With the delivery and way the footy was always down there, I would expect Betts to get a bit of it. .


Morris kept Fev to one goal. When your direct opponent kicks 3 goals - you are a beaten man.

[strebla]

I thought Grant did some really good things his chasing early was exeptional gee the are a few here marking Harbrow hard thought he did as well as anyone could.
In : Aker, Cooney and O'Keefe
out: Ward,Hahn and Ego (even though I thought he was better today )

[soupman]

Morris kept Fev to one goal. When your direct opponent kicks 3 goals - you are a beaten man.

Fevola kicked 3. Is Morris a beaten man?

Considering Fevola and Betts are their go to forwards, and Betts got one goal from the boundary that Harbrow should have stopped, one on the lead that was a perfect pass, and one from the goalsquare that was a turnover from him putting pressure on Gilbee who stuffed it, I think Habrrow can be forgiven.

[LostDoggy]

Nope, he shouldn't be forgiven it's just not good enough.

[G-Mo77]

Morris kept Fev to one goal. When your direct opponent kicks 3 goals - you are a beaten man.

Morris got beaten then, Fev got 3.

[soupman]

Nope, he shouldn't be forgiven it's just not good enough.

So Harbrow was directly responsible for 1 goal, despite playing defence on one of the oppositions most dangerous forwards all match, with the ball frequently being put into space down there, with little support, and whilst finding the footy just as much himself, and you want to drop him.

He was fine compared to most of the team.

[boydogs]

A lot of calls on this forum that were not heeded at the selection table last week were proven correct today. I include Hahn, Minson, Ward and bringing in Callan for Betts. Two bad losses in a row, time for some major changes

Welsh for Hahn (hope he is just injured, and its not a case of we have seen his best footy)
Skipper for Minson (doesn't do enough)
Cooney for Ward (not ready)
Callan for Addison (poor disposal)
Akermanis for Grant (not ready)
O'Keefe for Harbrow (unlucky, played out of position today - O'Keefe has earnt a spot)

These changes alone will not do the trick, we were very poor today running defensively to cover opponents when going back the other way after a turnover, hoping this was just the Perth trip

[bulldogtragic]

I think we need to drop a 'name' player whi isn't up to it at the moment, ala Nicky Del Santo 2008.

[LostDoggy]

Eagleton!! :D

[always right]

Morris kept Fev to one goal. When your direct opponent kicks 3 goals - you are a beaten man.

If that's your criteria, then we will be playing most of the Willi side next week. Harbrow made some errors but was pretty solid and at least chased and tried to create.

He might be dropped but there are many more who should go before him....but probably won't.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think we need to drop a 'name' player whi isn't up to it at the moment, ala Nicky Del Santo 2008.

Gia is your man then.

[always right]

Morris got beaten then, Fev got 3.

OUCH!

[LostDoggy]

If that's your criteria, then we will be playing most of the Willi side next week. Harbrow made some errors but was pretty solid and at least chased and tried to create.

He might be dropped but there are many more who should go before him....but probably won't.


That's a bit of a problem then isn't it?

[G-Mo77]

OUCH!

Apparently that is how you gauge on how well a backman played. :rolleyes:

I thought Morris did a great job on Fev today I also thought Harbrow did a fair job on Betts. TO's killed us and any backman is in strife when the ball comes in easily. To say they didn't do a good job because their direct opponent got 3 is a joke!

[always right]

That's a bit of a problem then isn't it?

Ummm...yes

[always right]

Apparently that is how you gauge on how well a backman played. :rolleyes:

I thought Morris did a great job on Fev today I also thought Harbrow did a fair job on Betts. TO's killed us and any backman is in strife when the ball comes in easily. To say they didn't do a good job because their direct opponent got 3 is a joke!

Suggest you re-read all posts. You might find I'm agreeing with you.

[G-Mo77]

Suggest you re-read all posts. You might find I'm agreeing with you.

Yeah I am aware, the rolling of the eyes wasn't a shot at you. ;)

[LostDoggy]

I think we need to drop a 'name' player whi isn't up to it at the moment, ala Nicky Del Santo 2008.

LOL, our club won't do that.

As i said in the 'Bald Eagle thread' our club isn't one which drops a top line player, it will be the same names up again this week. Tiller will probably come back in, and then get dropped the following.

They might as well send Grant back to Willy, even though i think they shouldn't. He wasn't used properly today, by both coach & teammates.

[G-Mo77]

Just wondering for the people dropping Eagleton's name to be dropped are you guys aware of his role today?

I would have had no problem dropping after the WC game but he had a job to do today and did it.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I must say that we had an absolute shocker today and the problem looked like it came off 1/2 forward for us.
The forward pressure was nil and the back line did a fair job but the turn overs killed us (2 weeks now)

For me Welsh for Hahn, Skipper for Minson (2 years now and 22 goals), Callan for Ward & Aker for Murphy.

We just cant afford to play unfit players they need to get match fitness down at willy (Cooney & Murphy)

I thought that Grant lead all day but they wouldn't kick it to him.

For me we need to put the head over the ball and the body on the line, to many times today the didn't put on a shepherd but peeled off for an easy ball get.

Sorry guys thought we lacked a lot of heart today and it was a bitter loss that the membership will not recover from.

[LostDoggy]

Bumper_Bulldogs i agree with your view on Minson.

If he isn't the number one ruck men, then what is he??

He can't mark, can't really kick to save his life & doesn't like giving the ball off by hand. Plus he isn't as mobile as most talls these days, so gets caught out way to much.

What was he doing having a set shot from 50?? and why did his teammates allow him to do it.

[Rance Fan]

We are relying on Hahn as our key forward/CHF.!! Hes not tall enough nor athletic enough. He may outmark opponents on the odd occasion, using his body strength, but really he is just a 2nd or 3rd option forward, nothing more. Even Murphy is no CHF.!! I think we expect to much, and i dont think he had the ball passed to him lace out all that often today. If he can kick a goal or two, present and takle and push the ball forward im happy with that.

As for Morris and Harbrow they did ok considering the circumstances.

In the end Carlton were harder at it and wanted it more. They continued to run for each other.

They did it for Dick!!

[Dazza]

I can't remember Grant being kicked to tonight. Other than when he marked and got the 50m penalty. Our forward setup is very strange. Played with 4 wings for most of the match.

[bulldogtragic]

We are relying on Hahn as our key forward/CHF.!! Hes not tall enough nor athletic enough. He may outmark opponents on the odd occasion, using his body strength, but really he is just a 2nd or 3rd option forward, nothing more. Even Murphy is no CHF.!! I think we expect to much, and i dont think he had the ball passed to him lace out all that often today. If he can kick a goal or two, present and takle and push the ball forward im happy with that.

As for Morris and Harbrow they did ok considering the circumstances.

In the end Carlton were harder at it and wanted it more. They continued to run for each other.

They did it for Dick!!
And your relevance to this post is what?

You wanted to use the word dick as a double-entoundra.

Very clever... WOOF is about making contributions, expressing different opinions in mature ways and using respect and ettiquette for those that make this place happen in all the different forms. Perhaps performing any of the above functions might be a good start in lieu of pointless and immature posts/threads.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Bumper_Bulldogs i agree with your view on Minson.

If he isn't the number one ruck men, then what is he??

He can't mark, can't really kick to save his life & doesn't like giving the ball off by hand. Plus he isn't as mobile as most talls these days, so gets caught out way to much.

What was he doing having a set shot from 50?? and why did his teammates allow him to do it.

I must say i think he was a real worth while trial to fill in a gap, but how long do we stick to it. Should we accept it or try something new?

I'm feeling that rocket is running out of answers and just wont give skip a go.

I thought that 2 years ago that Minson played his best footy as a ruck-man rotating with Street. my thoughts are it's not going to work in bug games so lets go to plan "B"

If that is no better revert back to plan "A" but at least we did something and the list is still good so we will play finals we just need to keep the faith.

[The Underdog]

Picken would have to be an out. Williams is lucky he is 6ft 5', because he was very average (again). Minson will be gone as soon as Roughead shows some form.

Picken actually did a reasonable job today and I thought Minson was actually one of our better players if only for his effort. He wasn't our worst ruckman today. It'll be interesting when there is a third option though because I can't see Will getting much better.
Agree on Williams, he was terrible and looked out of his depth.

Callan has to come in.

If he's under done - so be it.

Harbrow got killed today and is no defensive player.

If we drop Grant I'll be livid.

IN: Aker, Cooney, Callan
OUT: Hahn, Ward, Harbrow

Not sure why you'd be livid if we dropped Grant. He looked lost in the forward line. I'll admit he probably needs time to work things out but he's not in our best 22 on today's effort.

[vho]

I've had enough of this pitiful, unaccountable performance. I lost count the number of times a carlton player just waltzed through the middle and handballing or kicking to a free man. I thought we got rid of this unaccountable play near the end of last year, WHERE IS OUR DEFENSIVE SIDE?!. As per usual, our senior players refuse to step up when they needed to (Gia, Gilbee, Eagleton.. and plenty of others). Hahn is definately skating on thin ice and Gia and Gilbee need a rocket stuck up their ass. How about the time when Cross had a chance to kick a goal from inside 50 but decided to pass it off only to result in a throw in? i can understand his kicking isn't his forte but when you are in the 50 and have a chance to kick the goal then kick it!

Out: Ward(rested), Hahn/Eagleton
IN: Welsh(if fit), O'keefe/Cooney(if fit), Aker

[The Pie Man]

Apart from one instance where Eagleton wouldn't bend over to contest the foot (he tried to soccer it out of a pack - it was weeeeeeak) he did a job today and wasn't bad. He shouldn't be dropped on the strength of that, and has had 4 out of 5 decent games for the year now.

I stood there wondering where Eade was going with player placement today - Harbrow tried hard today on Betts but it felt like an experiment gone wrong all day to me. I kept thinking 'gee I hope Tim Callan plays ok for Willi today' watching Harbrow...if he's not played up the ground, then why's he there? If it's a football education he needs, get it at Williamstown - this is a comment on the coaching staff, not the player, he kept trying today which is pleasing to a point.

I know people will think Lake shouldn't play forward again, but if you can put aside the brain explosion, he looked good there. He could be a gun forward IMO.

Ward looks slow at times, a bit robotic like Morris as well - works for Morris as his job isn't to create. He hasn't convinced me yet.

Wil still doesn't take grabs around the ground, in real trouble. Mitch Hahn did one nice thing in the 2nd quarter, but not much else. Needs confidence

My brother got on my nerves today banging on about how Jarrad Grant isn't 'up to it, he can't kick, he doesn't look a footballer' but I'd give him more time. He's quick - why not start him deep and he can burn defenders on the lead within the 50? Needs to find a kicking technique fast, maybe even look at the robotic Stewart Loewe style if his natural style isn't working.

Rob Murphy also horribly out of touch - glad to see him get through a game, hopefully better for the run.

My dad rang me after the game with opinions on Williamstown, reckons Reid & Welsh have to play - you could almost make 5-6 changes this week as Tiller would also be considered given St Kilda's forward line.

I read earlier someone suggest that we may need to make a big name ommision to kick us up the arse in the Dal Santo vein - if we were to go down that path, I'd pick Daniel Cross. His disposal still stinks, cost us a certain goal in the 2nd quarter and enedeavour (which can't be questioned) aside he's a liability at times. Seriously - this probably won't be a popular comment, but I'm very firm on that. I get more annoyed at Cross than anyone else these days.

Should be an interesting week with the Saints ahead. Were they that good or were Port that bad? Nonetheless, they're in ripping form. We can expect a better performance, and we're still 4th believe it or not.

[bulldogtragic]

Apart from one instance where Eagleton wouldn't bend over to contest the foot (he tried to soccer it out of a pack - it was weeeeeeak) he did a job today and wasn't bad. He shouldn't be dropped on the strength of that, and has had 4 out of 5 decent games for the year now.

I stood there wondering where Eade was going with player placement today - Harbrow tried hard today on Betts but it felt like an experiment gone wrong all day to me. I kept thinking 'gee I hope Tim Callan plays ok for Willi today' watching Harbrow...if he's not played up the ground, then why's he there? If it's a football education he needs, get it at Williamstown - this is a comment on the coaching staff, not the player, he kept trying today which is pleasing to a point.

I know people will think Lake shouldn't play forward again, but if you can put aside the brain explosion, he looked good there. He could be a gun forward IMO.

Ward looks slow at times, a bit robotic like Morris as well - works for Morris as his job isn't to create. He hasn't convinced me yet.

Wil still doesn't take grabs around the ground, in real trouble. Mitch Hahn did one nice thing in the 2nd quarter, but not much else. Needs confidence

My brother got on my nerves today banging on about how Jarrad Grant isn't 'up to it, he can't kick, he doesn't look a footballer' but I'd give him more time. He's quick - why not start him deep and he can burn defenders on the lead within the 50? Needs to find a kicking technique fast, maybe even look at the robotic Stewart Loewe style if his natural style isn't working.

Rob Murphy also horribly out of touch - glad to see him get through a game, hopefully better for the run.

My dad rang me after the game with opinions on Williamstown, reckons Reid & Welsh have to play - you could almost make 5-6 changes this week as Tiller would also be considered given St Kilda's forward line.

I read earlier someone suggest that we may need to make a big name ommision to kick us up the arse in the Dal Santo vein - if we were to go down that path, I'd pick Daniel Cross. His disposal still stinks, cost us a certain goal in the 2nd quarter and enedeavour (which can't be questioned) aside he's a liability at times. Seriously - this probably won't be a popular comment, but I'm very firm on that. I get more annoyed at Cross than anyone else these days.

Should be an interesting week with the Saints ahead. Were they that good or were Port that bad? Nonetheless, they're in ripping form. We can expect a better performance, and we're still 4th believe it or not.
Crossy. Bug call, but WOOF welcomes reasoned posts which this is. Reid is in hit form and gets the hard ball too. I too think a big name should fall and send a message. Perhaps Crossy is the man. A few times today his decision making could only be decribed as a brain explosion.

I wouldn't have thought of Cross for omission, but i think there is some merit to what you say. The ensuing mature discussion will be worth the time spent on WOOF i'm sure.

[The Pie Man]

Crossy. Bug call, but WOOF welcomes reasoned posts which this is. Reid is in hit form and gets the hard ball too. I too think a big name should fall and send a message. Perhaps Crossy is the man. A few times today his decision making could only be decribed as a brain explosion.

I wouldn't have thought of Cross for omission, but i think there is some merit to what you say. The ensuing mature discussion will be worth the time spent on WOOF i'm sure.

I apreciate the reasonable response....I was a bit nervous typing it to be honest! I'll re-iterate my love for Daniel Cross' endeavour, he should be loooked up to in that regard. Just wish he could use the pill better, and it's not getting any better. Sadly, I don't think it will.

[Before I Die]

.

For me, Ward is the only definite out. .

I have to agree with this. I think Ward will be a 200 gamer, but he has done nothing other than gain important experience so far this year. He is getting low stats, not doing any specific job and has a season average disposal efficiency rate only marginally over 50%. Time for a run in the twos.

Harbrow did a good job today. His position will depend on match-ups, as did Tiller's last week, and Callan's match fitness.

If Williams doesn't improve his awareness it won't be long before he is back on the injured list again

In: Cooney, Aker, Welsh,
Outs: Ward, Hahn, Grant


Don't want to drop Grant, but I think Welsh is needed. Cooney and Aker are automatic ins. Also, one of Callan, Tiller or Everitt may come in at Harbrow's expense depending on match-ups.

[doggystyle]

And your relevance to this post is what?

You wanted to use the word dick as a double-entoundra.

Very clever... WOOF is about making contributions, expressing different opinions in mature ways and using respect and ettiquette for those that make this place happen in all the different forms. Perhaps performing any of the above functions might be a good start in lieu of pointless and immature posts/threads.
you need to lighten up buddy...who died and made you the forum boss? a forum is where people can speak their mind...just because we all don't bow to eagleton like you do doesn't mean our opinions are any less valid

[doggystyle]

oh and in reference to brain explosion...cross wasn't the only one. when god was handing out IQs he surely forgot about Lake, Hargraves and Gilbee...all outstanding players when they are switched on and not overanalysing...as soon as they need to think they cause turnover after turnover...let's hope each of them get back to their usual brilliant form ASAP

[Mantis]

If that's your criteria, then we will be playing most of the Willi side next week. Harbrow made some errors but was pretty solid and at least chased and tried to create.

He might be dropped but there are many more who should go before him....but probably won't.

Like who?

[Before I Die]

I apreciate the reasonable response....I was a bit nervous typing it to be honest! I'll re-iterate my love for Daniel Cross' endeavour, he should be loooked up to in that regard. Just wish he could use the pill better, and it's not getting any better. Sadly, I don't think it will.

The changes in the game now highlight this deficiency. Opposition sides have stopped tackling players like Cross and Watson (Essendon), they let them run free because they want these players to have the ball. Instead they play zones and sweat on the receivers. We won the contested ball today and got slaughtered on the scoreboard. While all our midfielders ran up and down the wings, Bryce Gibbs just sat in the middle of the ground and waited for the turnovers. None of our players worried about him and he just cut us to shreds, 25 disposals, 75% efficiency, 1 goal, 2 goal assists.

With Cooney missing, Griffen down, Eagleton and Johhno aging, we have a serious lack of pace and finishing skills in the middle. The WC and Caaaaarlton zones killed us and St Kilda are the 2009 Zone Kings. I wouldn't drop Cross yet, but I would give him a Ling type shutdown, runoff role. Crossy running free and playing a link up role is hurting us more than it is helping.

[alwaysadog]

I think Mitch Hahn needs some confidence ... give him a run in the twos

I'm not sure that he lacks confidence, I think he's carrying an injury. Did anyone see how long it took him to get up after he was flattened in the third quarter? It looked to me like he has a back problem.

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

Crossy. Bug call, but WOOF welcomes reasoned posts which this is. Reid is in hit form and gets the hard ball too. I too think a big name should fall and send a message. Perhaps Crossy is the man. A few times today his decision making could only be decribed as a brain explosion.

I wouldn't have thought of Cross for omission, but i think there is some merit to what you say. The ensuing mature discussion will be worth the time spent on WOOF i'm sure.


Most games this year there has been a moments with Crossy where I've had to put my head in my hands with a critical handball missed or a poor disposal that has cost us a goal and mutter "oh Daniel...why brother". Anyone anyone, thanks for coming, I'm here all week, make sure you try the fish.

If you drop him who is going to come in and pick up 25 disposals, lay a few crunching tackles, a backing into a pack or two and win the contested ball in the middle. A couple of bad mistakes here and there don't cancel these stats out.
It would hurt the side too much that is already struggling to match it in the guts. If you want to make a statement which I don't think is needed ( the players know 13 goals from turnovers isn't good enough) drop someone like Gia who is massively respected around the club and is going to be our next captain. This would show the others that no one is untouchable and send a message. He probably wouldn't be as costly to lose for a week.

Don't you think that against the Saints we are going to need someone who is going to get down and dirty when the presssure goes up 30% next week.

[LostDoggy]

Ins - Akermanis, Cooney, Reid and Callan
Outs - Harbrow, Ward, Grant and Picken

Now for the reasons - Akermanis and Cooney are automatic inclusions to replace Grant and Picken. Callan is a far better defensive player than Harbrow and will be needed to combat Milne and Ward is down on form and Reid just wants and gets the ball more at the moment.

Grant just wasn't ready for senior football today.

[LostDoggy]

I'd definatly drop Harbrow not sure who else.

Harbrow was far from our worst today. He was playing on a form player and was very stiff tio cop goals against him today
Beside we lack pace so drop a guy that has some? Move him to midfield/half forward line.

[The Pie Man]

Most games this year there has been a moments with Crossy where I've had to put my head in my hands with a critical handball missed or a poor disposal that has cost us a goal and mutter "oh Daniel...why brother". Anyone anyone, thanks for coming, I'm here all week, make sure you try the fish.

If you drop him who is going to come in and pick up 25 disposals, lay a few crunching tackles, a backing into a pack or two and win the contested ball in the middle. A couple of bad mistakes here and there don't cancel these stats out.
It would hurt the side too much that is already struggling to match it in the guts. If you want to make a statement which I don't think is needed ( the players know 13 goals from turnovers isn't good enough) drop someone like Gia who is massively respected around the club and is going to be our next captain. This would show the others that no one is untouchable and send a message. He probably wouldn't be as costly to lose for a week.

Don't you think that against the Saints we are going to need someone who is going to get down and dirty when the presssure goes up 30% next week.

Fair points - I think someone like Reid would be useful winning the hard ball if Cross was absent.

They won't drop Cross, and the next time he backs into a pack and takes a good overhead grab I'll clap and think I'm an idiot for ever suggesting he play at Williamstown.

Gia's an interesting call - the horendous one-two with Ward in the middle that ended with Gia kicking under pressure on his left straight to a Carlton defender tested my patience. Also spent half the game on the pine last week

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

You're not an idiot at all for thinking it. There are instances where he lacks a lot in certain situations and it can be bloody frustrating and costly but his good is far above his bad. I get frustrated with him a lot but I always weigh that up against others in the team who have much better skils but don't have a crack or put in as much....... Anyway make sure you try the fish.

[Happy Days]

Gia is your man then.

Haaaaarsh.

Gia was one of the few moderate to decent players today.

[Mofra]

Crossy. Bug call, but WOOF welcomes reasoned posts which this is. Reid is in hit form and gets the hard ball too. I too think a big name should fall and send a message. Perhaps Crossy is the man. A few times today his decision making could only be decribed as a brain explosion.

I wouldn't have thought of Cross for omission, but i think there is some merit to what you say. The ensuing mature discussion will be worth the time spent on WOOF i'm sure.
I'm prepared to make a harsh call. Cross was a coward today. Not physically, but mentally.

He refuses to kick the ball, has completely lost all confidence to actually put the boot to ball unless he & the target are uncontested.

He has as much physical courage as anyone playing the game, runs hard in his one-paced kind of way, but today's football has changed from even a couple of years ago. If you can't kick, you must be pretty damned good in every other aspect of your play.

Cross is super courageous physically, brilliant overhead for his size, a true gut runner, but slow as treacle and has no feet. He needs to be put on notice that, as a leader, he shoudl take the responsibility.

I'd take a mistake over lack of will every time.

[AndrewP6]

I must say that we had an absolute shocker today and the problem looked like it came off 1/2 forward for us.
The forward pressure was nil and the back line did a fair job but the turn overs killed us (2 weeks now)

For me Welsh for Hahn, Skipper for Minson (2 years now and 22 goals), Callan for Ward & Aker for Murphy.

We just cant afford to play unfit players they need to get match fitness down at willy (Cooney & Murphy)

I thought that Grant lead all day but they wouldn't kick it to him.

For me we need to put the head over the ball and the body on the line, to many times today the didn't put on a shepherd but peeled off for an easy ball get.

Sorry guys thought we lacked a lot of heart today and it was a bitter loss that the membership will not recover from.

Touch over the top, isn't it?

[AndrewP6]

Picken would have to be an out. Williams is lucky he is 6ft 5', because he was very average (again). Minson will be gone as soon as Roughead shows some form.

Thought he wasn't that bad...

[AndrewP6]

My two cents worth...

IN - Aker, Cooney (if fit), Welsh (will keep saying it till it happens!), Tiller/Everitt.
OUT - Grant, Ward, Harbrow, Hahn (needs to find form)

Just my opinion...till I change my mind!

[AndrewP6]

Haaaaarsh.

Gia was one of the few moderate to decent players today.

Agreed...and I called for his head last week!:)

[LostDoggy]

terrible game today, we rarely looked like challenging the blues because we kept turning the ball over too often and our pressure was non existent.............most of the match it appeared as though carlton had 10 extra players because they were always loose or marking our kicks.

maybe we should have goal kicking practice during the week (like carlton did last week) apart from round 1 against freo...............our kicking has been pretty ordinary but worse the past 2 matches.

welsh needs to come in (if available) callan for hardness............addison had a shocker today (but most of the team did) grant didnt do much, albeit did have little opportunity, but even if he marked in the 50 prob wouldnt kick goals anyway because hes not a great kick

the past 2 games have been played against teams that have zoned (as richmond did in the first 1/4 a few wks ago)...........we need to find a way to get through zones, but i cant see it happening anytime soon and the way the saints have been playing..........we could get smashed next week

[Stefcep]

I apreciate the reasonable response....I was a bit nervous typing it to be honest! I'll re-iterate my love for Daniel Cross' endeavour, he should be loooked up to in that regard. Just wish he could use the pill better, and it's not getting any better. Sadly, I don't think it will.


I though it kinda odd that most posts are apologetic when criticising Cross-everyone adds the " look i love Crossy and he bleeds red, white and blue BUT..." line. I've been a critic of Cross even through last season, mainly because he's not damaging enough given the number of possessions he gets. Because he can't kick. An AFL footballer that can't kick? Should never be allowed to happen in this day and age.

Until we win a premeirship, EVERY player who doesn't perform needs to have their weaknesses put under the microscope. Even Cross. So that they can become better for it.

[Desipura]

OUT: Minson (too many opportunities given) When he took that strong mark outside 50, he should have immediately given it off. Play within your limitations, he has never kicked a goal outside 50.
Ward - there was some hype coming into this season, still only a kid. I can recall a passage of play in the 3rd quarter on the half forward flank when he was facing the goals, an opposition player was chasing him.
Rather than take him on and back himself he opted to duck his head and try ang get around him. The end result "holding the ball". He needs to go back to Williamstown and learn how to play as an outside player as well. To me it seems he is trying to play as an inside player who does not yet have the physique to play this role. Even the best inside players get possessions on the periphery. This will increase is confidence and add an extra string to his bow.
Grant Was a big ask to perform in your first game when your teammates farred no better, it is going to be a physical game next week against the Saints.


IN: Skipper - Will at least be able to run around the ground and potentially create play against the 2 physically strong however less agile ruckman going around in Gardiner and King.
Aker
Cooney
On notice: Hahn - last chance to perform and
Gilbee - 2 shockers

[Desipura]

Gee Im glad Jerry is not a selector, drop Picken? The guy has been in our best up until yesterday. Perhaps you need to actually go to a game to form a decent opinion rather than listening to the commentators.

[Mantis]

Gee Im glad Jerry is not a selector, drop Picken? The guy has been in our best up until yesterday. Perhaps you need to actually go to a game to form a decent opinion rather than listening to the commentators.

Doesn't jerry live in WA? Interstate supporters are allowed to have an opinion too.

[LostDoggy]

Gee Im glad Jerry is not a selector, drop Picken? The guy has been in our best up until yesterday. Perhaps you need to actually go to a game to form a decent opinion rather than listening to the commentators.

My question in regards to Picken is, by playing a permanent prue tagger what has that taken away in our side? Our midfield isn't exactly killing them and nor are we you stopping the opposition midfield.

[Desipura]

Doesn't jerry live in WA? Interstate supporters are allowed to have an opinion too.

I said PERHAPS YOU need to go to a game to form a DECENT opinion, there is no mention of not allowing to form an opinion. Purely directed to Jerry.

[LostDoggy]

Have noted the comments from some about Harbrow - in my view he was played out of position today. If we had been able to field Callen in the side to take Betts, then Harbrow would have found a position more forward where his natural skills could be better utilised. The lack of accountability in the middle meant that the ball came into the Carlton forward line quickly and accurately. Betts is a very good player who made the most of the lack mid field pressure from the Dogs, as did Kreuzer, as did Gibbs, as did Houlihan.

[LostDoggy]

As Sunshine notes, Grant wasn't ready for senior footy yesterday. He had the "lights in his eyes" even during the warm up. It raises the question for me as to why we do not have our newbies ready to play? There have been a lot of examples amongst other teams this year of first gamers delivering a stellar first game and in some cases continuing to deliver. Our boys don't seem to fit in that easily to the team. Is it that the set up of our forward line is so non conventional that they get lost?

[Sedat]

My question in regards to Picken is, by playing a permanent prue tagger what has that taken away in our side? Our midfield isn't exactly killing them and nor are we you stopping the opposition midfield.
I thought the combination of Picken and Boyd did as well as you can in blunting Judd's influence yesterday - never seen Judd tackled and the tackles stick on so many occasions yesterday, and it was good to see Judd's direct opponent work him in the other direction to score a couple of goals on him. Picken, in isolation, is the least of our problems at the moment, but Picken as part of a midfield collective group comprising Cross, Boyd and Ward is a concern - the lack of leg speed and precision foot skill has imbalanced the team at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

Very disappointed in yesterday's loss, but not unexpected. We seem to have fallen into a hole at the moment and lack spark.

For mine I think Ward should be dropped, I was suprised he played after last week's effort. He is really only a first year player, and it is normal for him to alternate between Willy and the dogs. I think it would hit at Grant's confidence if he was dropped. He is a first gamer, and there were several senior players that put in worst efforts than him.

What the hell is happening to Welsh? We need him desperately as a target up forward, also Aker, it isn't until he is out that we notice the difference. I sincerely hope Aker plays on for another year, we are not ready to play without him.

Finally Cooney didn't win a Brownlow for nothing, he makes the other midfielders look good when he plays - Cross and Griffin epecially, I just hope that he can play back into form this year, or it is going to be a groundhog day year ala 2007 for us:(

I think Boyd's endeavour yesterday was commendable - he managed to slot a goal when no one else could. The only time I felt confident something good would happen was when the ball was in Hill's hands, he really is Aker's understudy or in Higgins hands, but even he got shut down at the end.

Will we beat the Saints - normally when we get thrashed like this we come out hard, but I don't think this will happen this week - there is definately a flat feeling to the team at the moment.

I don't want to start rumours if there is no substance to them and I hope this is the case, but the elderly couple I sat next to at the game, were adamant that Higgins has met with representatives from the GC yesterday at the Medallion club, if the team knew this would this be the reason they were so flat and Higgins played out of this skin.

[Ozza]

Eagleton must go. He lets us down time and time and he looked petrified in quite a few contests today. How he gets a game is beyond me.

I really like Callan Ward - but he may need a week or two in the 2's. Just isn't getting enough footy for a midfielder.

Picken should definitely stay in. at least he brings some hardness at the contest, runs all day and has a crack. The same can't be said for a few others today.

[Mofra]

Picken spent a fair bit of time on Murphy yesterday & had his anuss handed to him on a platter. 4th game though, I'd be prepared to persist for another week so as not to shatter his confidence. His disposal is getting better and he kicked a nice goal from a difficult angle.

Boyd spent a fair bit of time on Judd & did very well. One of our best. I'd say Boyd has overtaken Cross so far this year, and is sitting next to Higgins as our best performed mid this year.

[The Pie Man]

Just looking at the stats from yesterday's game, and I'm going to douse some of my own arguments from last night here.

D Cross : 21 disposals, 95% efficiency (or is it effective?) interestingly only 4 kicks, 17 handballs

Not a bad game really - I imagine he's lost confidence with his slipper if the stats are anything to go by. The turnover (well technically Hahn was able to gather and handball to Higgins who missed the hero shot but it was a gilt edged opportunity spurned) by foot was horendous, but I have to forgive him for it.

Hudson had 17 disposals - I don't remember them. Ryan Griffen 20 touches but only 60% effective. Josh Hill (who I thought played ok) was even worse, 23 touches and only 57% effective. Higgins also low on effective % (63%)

Jarrad Grant also on the low kick, high handball ratio, 7 handballs and one less than impressive kick.

Cal Ward, 8 touches. Gilbee & Murphy less than 15 each, plenty were down. They'll come back.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Ins: Aker, Reid, Cooney, Tiller

Out: Gia, Ward, Harbrow, Grant

Callan and Welsh didn't play VFL and I think that rules them out of contention

[Ozza]

Hahn would have to be a chance to get dropped. He was disgraceful. And has been for 3 weeks. Refused to chase.

[Sedat]

One thing that was glaringly evident yesterday was that we are currently one of the worst teams in the AFL at forward line pressure - not only was our forward 50 delivery very poor yesterday (admittedly not helped by stationery targets in the forward 50 not running at the ball carrier to provide an option), but Carlton had an easy ride out once they invariably won possession in their defensive 50 - hence they owned the corridor because they were allowed to bring it out with relative ease under little or no pressure.

Jarrad Grant hustled and chased as well as any of our forwards yesterday but his light frame just can't make the tackles stick yet. The calls to drop Grant are interesting - for a side clearly lacking in foot speed, Grant is extremelty quick and, if used properly, can provide a match-up problem for opposition defenders with his speed off the mark. What we cannot do is treat him like a pack-marking KP forward - this will be an exercise in futility. Goes without saying that he needs to work on is goal kicking - yesterday's effort was very poor and certainly wasn't a one-off going by the NAB Cup game against the Bombers.

I also thought the decision to play Murphy was poor. He looked like he was playing on an ice skating rink and had no ability to move laterally whatsoever. If Murph can't trust his body to move sideways and turn his defenders inside out, he it greatly diminishes his value to the team as an attacking outlet option. And it is such a long season that we simply need to give him sufficient time to get 100% right. I'd rather see Grant assume the Murphy lead-up role until Murph is fully right to go.

[LostDoggy]

Murphy may be rusty, but a lot of what happened yesterday IMO was about his general offerings being dashed with inconsistency. I really think he's been put up on a pedestal as being better than he actually is, which is why I mentioned his name in the Pavlich trade thread.

The rest that need to be dropped are Eagleton, Ward and Harbrow. Akermanis and Cooney (?) to return, and I'd give another go to kid coming through for Eagleton. Perhaps O'Keefe - though admittedly I don't know much about him.

Our forward line is a major problem and although I see Grant has a future, he's just not ready yet. Welsh needs to play, because despite him not being a power-forward, he does act as a focal point.

[Sedat]

In: Skipper, Callan, Cooney, Akermanis, O'Keefe, Tiller, Everitt
Out: Minson, Harbrow, Ward, Hahn (all omitted)

Extended bench: Gia, O'Keefe, Tiller, Everitt, Eagleton, Picken, Addison

Callan is into the starting 18 to take Milne. Skipper a direct replacement for Minson. Cooney and Aker add pace and smarts to the midfield/forwards. Picken keeps his spot to do a hard tag on Montagna or Gram. One of Gia or O'Keefe gets the nod, likewise one of Tiller or Everitt. Reid is stiff but we have more than enough one-paced ball winners in the team at the moment. Eagle likely to stay in the team so it might be Addison that misses the cut - all dependant on match-ups with St Kilda but we need as many good decision-makers in the team as possible to cope with the intense St Kilda defensive pressure on the ball carrier.

If Murphy is not 100% confident in his lateral movements, put him back in the VFL and have Grant assume the lead-up forward role - it is a long season and his presence will be crucial to our set-up in the 2nd half of the season.

Will the above happen? Highly unlikely.

[Rocco Jones]

Callan is into the starting 18 to take Milne

Shaggy absolutely smashed Milne last time we played the Saints (106 SC points to 10!), the best game I have seen him play. Other than that, I pretty much agree with your ins and outs.

I would go with:
IN: Aker, Cooney, O'Keefe, Skipper
OUT: Ward, Harbrow, Hahn, Minson

I would like to see Tiller have a crack up forward for Willy. I think he could play Hahn's role up forward and be a bit of a swingman for us.

[bornadog]

IN: Aker, Cooney, O'Keefe, Skipper
OUT: Grant, Harbrow, Hahn, Eagleton

Yes, Skipper to play forward, with Minson and Hudson rucking.

[Rocco Jones]

IN: Aker, Cooney, O'Keefe, Skipper
OUT: Grant, Harbrow, Hahn, Eagleton

Yes, Skipper to play forward, with Minson and Hudson rucking.

With the amount of running that is needed in modern game footy we can't afford to have Skipper, Minson and Hudson in the same side. It has to be one of Skipper or Minson.

[Mantis]

With the amount of running that is needed in modern game footy we can't afford to have Skipper, Minson and Hudson in the same side. It has to be one of Skipper or Minson.

St.Kilda have no problems fitting Gardiner, King & Kosi in their team. Our guys would be no less mobile than these 3.

And it's not like our running players are setting the world on fire.

[Mofra]

With the amount of running that is needed in modern game footy we can't afford to have Skipper, Minson and Hudson in the same side. It has to be one of Skipper or Minson.
Running needed is correct, and that was lacking yesterday. Skipper will be hungry for a spot knowing it's his last roll of the dice and would run himself into the ground.

Minson ran harder than Hahn yesterday, so height is not a reason to assume someone will run less. Skipper is slightly more mobile than Minson, can take a mark & kick a goal. We played with no HF line yesterday and desperately need a presence there.

I'd be willing to give Skipper a crack given he has been in the bests almost every week for Willy. It's not like a ruckman runs less kms than a forward these days anyway - he's not a Wynd-era kick behind the play ruckman.

[Sedat]

Shaggy absolutely smashed Milne last time we played the Saints (106 SC points to 10!), the best game I have seen him play. Other than that, I pretty much agree with your ins and outs.

I would go with:
IN: Aker, Cooney, O'Keefe, Skipper
OUT: Ward, Harbrow, Hahn, Minson

I would like to see Tiller have a crack up forward for Willy. I think he could play Hahn's role up forward and be a bit of a swingman for us.
Was thinking about that after I typed it - pretty good call. And the Saints aren't flushed with medium to tall targets outside of Reiwoldt and Kosi that Shaggy would naturally go to. However, there are the likes of Schneider that drift forward who require attention. I'd still like to see Callan in the mix this week.

[Mofra]

Was thinking about that after I typed it - pretty good call. And the Saints aren't flushed with medium to tall targets outside of Reiwoldt and Kosi that Shaggy would naturally go to. However, there are the likes of Schneider that drift forward who require attention. I'd still like to see Callan in the mix this week.
Not sure of Callan will be fit, but we desperately need a small BP type (sorry Harbrow, you've been developed as a forward/mid and it showed).

With Kosi likely to be out, Williams can go to the "next tall" which means Morris can play a shut down role and Shaggy can take Milne who is probably their least accountable forward.

[1eyedog]

The obvious two will come back and Welsh has to as well. I don't care what he did last weekend but he must play. Out go either Habrow, Ward, Grant, Hahn I don't care in what order.

[Rocco Jones]

St.Kilda have no problems fitting Gardiner, King & Kosi in their team. Our guys would be no less mobile than these 3.

And it's not like our running players are setting the world on fire.

The difference is that Kosi is a proven forward option and is definitely worth a spot in the 22 on his foward line work alone. Neither Skipper or Minson warrant selection on their ruck or forward line work alone. I think there's one 'tall forward, ruck relief' spot for them to fight for. With Hudson being such a pure ruckman, the ruck relief role only takes about 35% TOG anyway.

I agree that "our running players aren't setting the world on fire", hence me having 3 running types in.

[Mantis]

I agree that "our running players aren't setting the world on fire", hence me having 3 running types in.

We had 4 running types named on the bench this week (not sure how we set-up) and it seems like we were a little short. The people who I spoke to thought we should have played one of Tiller or Everitt against Carlton as they said we were forced to play Hargrave on a tall when Lake or Williams went forward.

It's plainly obvious that our running players aren't playing well so we either replace them or tinker with our structure. I think we need a tall in the forwardline at all times so I think we need to play Skipper as well as Minson & Hudson. Letting Hahn and Johnson or Higgins or Hill get bombarded will not prolong their careers.

[Rocco Jones]

We had 4 running types named on the bench this week (not sure how we set-up) and it seems like we were a little short. The people who I spoke to thought we should have played one of Tiller or Everitt against Carlton as they said we were forced to play Hargrave on a tall when Lake or Williams went forward.

It's plainly obvious that our running players aren't playing well so we either replace them or tinker with our structure. I think we need a tall in the forwardline at all times so I think we need to play Skipper as well as Minson & Hudson. Letting Hahn and Johnson or Higgins or Hill get bombarded will not prolong their careers.

I definitely agree with you that our forward line structure is a worry and our runners are underperforming.

Skipper or Minson can spend say 55-60% of the game forward even if they have to relieve Hudson in the ruck. My worry is that gun sides tend to exploit ordinary, permanent tall forward options. Hodge tore Minson apart in the QF last year as did Scarlett at Kardina Park during the season. I think Fisher would rip Minson or Skipper apart if they played as a permanent forward.

While Grant is nowhere near the finished product yet, I see him as a superior option than Skip or Minson as a permanent forward. We really missed Aker's ability to set up goals and desperately need a fit Bobby, as he is one of the best lead up targets in the game when he is up and running. A fit Welsh would walk into the side.

[Mantis]

Skipper or Minson can spend say 55-60% of the game forward even if they have to relieve Hudson in the ruck. My worry is that gun sides tend to exploit ordinary, permanent tall forward options. Hodge tore Minson apart in the QF last year as did Scarlett at Kardina Park during the season. I think Fisher would rip Minson or Skipper apart if they played as a permanent forward.

Fisher will also tear Hahn apart, probably Johnson & whoever else too. Maybe just maybe if we looked to isoalte Minson or Skipper against a smaller opponent and kicked it to their advantage they might be a chance of creating an impact.


While Grant is nowhere near the finished product yet, I see him as a superior option than Skip or Minson as a permanent forward. We really missed Aker's ability to set up goals and desperately need a fit Bobby, as he is one of the best lead up targets in the game when he is up and running. A fit Welsh would walk into the side.

Aker is in his last year, same too with Welsh (if he ever plays) time to start looking ahead.

And if we aren't going to kick it to Grant how is he going to improve? I guess if you aren't part of the 'IN' crowd at the Whitten Oval you are made to earn your stripes.

But I suppose that's always been the case hasn't it....

[Rocco Jones]

Fisher will also tear Hahn apart, probably Johnson & whoever else too. Maybe just maybe if we looked to isoalte Minson or Skipper against a smaller opponent and kicked it to their advantage they might be a chance of creating an impact.


Yeah I wouldn't have Hahn in the side but I agree with the sentiment. I'd be more inclined to play Skipper forward if he was playing there for Willy.




Aker is in his last year, same too with Welsh (if he ever plays) time to start looking ahead.


Agreed but I was talking about the game against the Saints and short term.





And if we aren't going to kick it to Grant how is he going to improve? I guess if you aren't part of the 'IN' crowd at the Whitten Oval you are made to earn your stripes.

But I suppose that's always been the case hasn't it....

That really annoyed me yesterday, especially during junk time. I think Grant is our best 'tall forward' option atm but he is no chance if we don't look for him.

[Mantis]

Yeah I wouldn't have Hahn in the side but I agree with the sentiment. I'd be more inclined to play Skipper forward if he was playing there for Willy.

Hahn really has to play, we have no physical presence up front without him.


That really annoyed me yesterday, especially during junk time. I think Grant is our best 'tall forward' option atm but he is no chance if we don't look for him.

The same thing happened to Tiller a few years back. He led to the right spots and got ignored so he stopped leading and was dropped from the team.

Too much self preservation occurs when we are under the pump. It's either kick it to my mate who I know will create a contest rather than kick it to the new guy who might stuff it up and make me look bad for kicking it to him in the first place. Either that or just ignore him/ them and try and kick the goal yourself.

And I don't know if this happened yesterday, but it has happened plenty of times in the past.

[Sedat]

Hahn really has to play, we have no physical presence up front without him.
I'll let you be the judge once you see the game, but Hahn had no presence or impact on the game whatsoever, and his direct opponent (Thornton) absolutely torched him going the other way and comfortably had his measure in the marking contests. You'd swear that Hahn was injured, such was his lack of movement around the forward 50. Right now, Hahn has no physical presence and is offering precious little offensively and defensively in such a pivotal role for the team.

The defensive intensity in our forward line yesterday was totally inept from the collective forward group.

[LostDoggy]

I'll let you be the judge once you see the game, but Hahn had no presence or impact on the game whatsoever, and his direct opponent (Thornton) absolutely torched him going the other way and comfortably had his measure in the marking contests. You'd swear that Hahn was injured, such was his lack of movement around the forward 50. Right now, Hahn has no physical presence and is offering precious little offensively and defensively in such a pivotal role for the team.

The defensive intensity in our forward line yesterday was totally inept from the collective forward group.

This sounds about right, Sedat. Hahn certainly looks out-of-sorts. Definitely not 100%, as I can't believe that he's just become lazy all of a sudden, as that would be very out-of-character for such a hardworking type.

[Rocco Jones]

I'll let you be the judge once you see the game, but Hahn had no presence or impact on the game whatsoever, and his direct opponent (Thornton) absolutely torched him going the other way and comfortably had his measure in the marking contests. You'd swear that Hahn was injured, such was his lack of movement around the forward 50. Right now, Hahn has no physical presence and is offering precious little offensively and defensively in such a pivotal role for the team.

The defensive intensity in our forward line yesterday was totally inept from the collective forward group.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts. We definitely need "physical presence" and Hahn is definitely "physical" but his inability to move means he fails with the "presence" part.

[Rocco Jones]

I wonder how much of Hahn's problems have to do with short term injuries and how much is down to how he has played during his career. I've had doubts about Hahn's longevity of awhile, he seems another Aaron Hamill to me.

[LostDoggy]

I wonder how much of Hahn's problems have to do with short term injuries and how much is down to how he has played during his career. I've had doubts about Hahn's longevity of awhile, he seems another Aaron Hamill to me.

Very good point actually -- remember thinking the same thing a couple of years back. These bullocking types are great when they're up and about but they do have a shorter shelf life than most. (Unless your name is Tony Lockett)

[LostDoggy]

I wonder how much of Hahn's problems have to do with short term injuries and how much is down to how he has played during his career. I've had doubts about Hahn's longevity of awhile, he seems another Aaron Hamill to me.

Yep he didn't have much if any impact...but are we forgetting his impact in round one and two? That being said if he is injured then we should rest him now...he is for to important to let things develop into something more serious.

[BulldogBelle]

I wonder how much of Hahn's problems have to do with short term injuries and how much is down to how he has played during his career. I've had doubts about Hahn's longevity of awhile, he seems another Aaron Hamill to me.


Hahn
I can only think of one of two marking contests yesterday when Hahn actually got off the ground...he does his best work at the bottom of the packs, and isnt a tall target. Think he needs to be sent back to Williamstown to gain some confidence and tenancity. He just isnt chasing hard enough, not sure its due to an injury or confidence

Ins
Skipper, Cooney (if 90+% fit), Aker and Callan

Outs
Hahn, Harbrow, Ward and Addison


Minson showed a bit yesterday, took a couple of grabs, but is better played in bursts...am sure we can switch between him and Skip and CHF and FF to provide a contest, and have Murph, Aker, Johnno etc crumbing.

All of the above outs need to be sent to Willy to find some form and confidence

We played in 2008 with really only Minson as a big forward, but prided ourselves on our delivery to the forward half...that delivery really isnt there at present, and may not be there for another few weeks until our mids lift their workrate and delivery...

Therefore we need a larger forward who can provide an arial contest in the form of Skip or Minson when we can get in forward with pinpoint accuracy

Gia is very close to being dropped in my book as well :eek:

[mjp]

Unfortunately we can make all of the changes on the periphery we like - but if our best players dont play better, then results like yesterday are going to happen.

Of all of the outs discussed here:
- I think Cal Ward needs a few weeks at Willi. He is a young kid (remember, he was still TAC Cup eligible in 2008) who is still finding his way. 5 is enough.
- I wouldn't play Mitch Hahn. 15 minutes of good footy all year (last quarter, round 1) - he simply needs to do a lot more.

That is really it for me. I would bring Tim Callan in for Ward, and Scott Welsh in for Hahn. Aker will also come in of course, and that will probably be the unlucky Harbrow who misses out...

Moving deck chairs/finding new deck chairs wont fix it right now - just have to go back to base principles and run harder to provide an option...who would have ever thought that our side would swing so far around from the 'skirting the packs' team that copped so much criticism in 2007?

I read Leon Cameron's comments about Boyd's game on Judd. To me it is terrific that he followed instructions and did the job, but to me with Gilbee not sniffing it, Cross refusing to kick it and kids like Ward struggling, we simply HAD to release Boyd from Judd and allow him more freedom to win the ball.

Gia fought back in the third quarter but I thought he was pretty insipid early - those early missed goals really cost us. Pointing the finger at Lake near 3/4 time is fine, but poor finishing early really had us chasing tail all day...a couple of goals and the Carlton mids/half-backs would have had to pay our guys a bit more respect.

[aker39]

MJP you'll need to find one more out if Cooney comes back in as reported.

[LostDoggy]

Ins and outs are difficult when we don't know the status of Callan and Welsh, does anyone know if they are injured or did they play on sunday??

I think the following players showed very poor form and may be dropped

Hahn - basically looked too slow/tired
Ward - little creative impact needs to improve his passing and acceleration
Eagleton - Burned the ball too many times, and struggled to handle the pill cleanly when under pressure
Harbrow - Tried his hardest but is not suited to back pocket, lacks defensive judgement and strength

Players who struggled but may keep their place

Grant - 1st gamer needed to be better supported by his fellow forwards and have his leads honored. I think he needs to stay in the side to work on finding his place in the team and to keep up his chasing in the forward line. If we can get Murphy or Acker to hit him up on the lead with a few good passes he might surprise a few.

Addison - Some poor disposals and just not anticpating well enough leading to missed tackles and not getting to contests he should have. Seems to hate being beaten so may lift. I would also like to set him against some of the StKilda hard nut mid forwards, eg Geary, Eddy, McQualter etc. His aggresion and strength would see him in ahead of Harbow.

Ins will depend on availability.

If fit, Welsh and Callan should come back with Acker and Cooney, if not then Tiller in as a utility/Possible Lead Up forward or in a run with role on Goddard with Okeefe to get a run up forward and in the middle as an outside player.

I have a feeling we might hit back this week but I am still not sure it will be enough. Lets just hope that Murphy and Cooney can play their way into form as the season goes on.

[Rance Fan]

Hahn
I can only think of one of two marking contests yesterday when Hahn actually got off the ground...he does his best work at the bottom of the packs, and isnt a tall target. Think he needs to be sent back to Williamstown to gain some confidence and tenancity. He just isnt chasing hard enough, not sure its due to an injury or confidence

Ins
Skipper, Cooney (if 90+% fit), Aker and Callan

Outs
Hahn, Harbrow, Ward and Addison


Minson showed a bit yesterday, took a couple of grabs, but is better played in bursts...am sure we can switch between him and Skip and CHF and FF to provide a contest, and have Murph, Aker, Johnno etc crumbing.

All of the above outs need to be sent to Willy to find some form and confidence

We played in 2008 with really only Minson as a big forward, but prided ourselves on our delivery to the forward half...that delivery really isnt there at present, and may not be there for another few weeks until our mids lift their workrate and delivery...

Therefore we need a larger forward who can provide an arial contest in the form of Skip or Minson when we can get in forward with pinpoint accuracy

Gia is very close to being dropped in my book as well :eek:

Well reviewed i tend to agree. Maybe O'Keefe for Gia. Gia needs to chase harder, to often i looked up and he was in the middle of no where running at half pace. Luckily for him he sloted 2 goals, but not sure that means he has done his job

[mjp]

MJP you'll need to find one more out if Cooney comes back in as reported.

I wouldn't play him.

[dogman]

Based on yesterday's performance most of the side shouldn't be feeling safe about their position in the senior side. Which is the way it should be. But I believe Eade has too many safe players and they know that they will be playing next week. I can't see the downside to dropping players if they don't perfom on a weekly basis. They play at Willie till they play well and then get rewarded and get another senior appearance. Geelong rotate their team a fair bit and have regular 2 to 3 ins and outs.

Look at players like Del Santo, Bowden, etc, where dropped last year and came back to make statements. Senior players like Hahn, Gia, Eagleton, etc, shouldn't be instant starters if their not playing well, especially when players at Willie are playing really well and should be rewarded.

Anyway for me
Out - Harbrow, Ward, Hahn, Eagleton
In - Cooney, Ried, Aka, Everitt/Callan

[Mantis]

I'll let you be the judge once you see the game, but Hahn had no presence or impact on the game whatsoever, and his direct opponent (Thornton) absolutely torched him going the other way and comfortably had his measure in the marking contests. You'd swear that Hahn was injured, such was his lack of movement around the forward 50. Right now, Hahn has no physical presence and is offering precious little offensively and defensively in such a pivotal role for the team.

The defensive intensity in our forward line yesterday was totally inept from the collective forward group.

Just about to lock myself in a padded room to watch the game.. ;)

I had heard that his physicality created a couple of goals yesterday, I will let the tape be the judge.

[mjp]

Look at players like Del Santo, Bowden, etc, where dropped last year and came back to make statements.

Bowden made a statement? What was it exactly? He seems to be playing exactly the same now as he did during the rest of his career.

I am all for dropping players, but there has to be a purpose behind it. Only St Kilda would know what was behind the Dal Santo demotion (and recall)...if you want to drop Gia (for example) under what criteria is he brought back in? If it is just a kick in the pants, how about ignoring this strategy and actually COACHING him? He is in his mid-20's and considered a leader at the club...what are you hoping he will actually learn by playing at Williamstown? And if it is something that one game will teach him, why does it have to be a game in the VFL?

[The Pie Man]

Reading reviews such as mjp's take on the game on this thread re-confirms my love for this site. There's been a bit of negativity going around, but this truly is a brilliant forum for a Dogs fan to be a part of.

I look forward to seeing the team to take on the Saints

[Rocco Jones]

Bowden made a statement? What was it exactly? He seems to be playing exactly the same now as he did during the rest of his career.

I am all for dropping players, but there has to be a purpose behind it. Only St Kilda would know what was behind the Dal Santo demotion (and recall)...if you want to drop Gia (for example) under what criteria is he brought back in? If it is just a kick in the pants, how about ignoring this strategy and actually COACHING him? He is in his mid-20's and considered a leader at the club...what are you hoping he will actually learn by playing at Williamstown? And if it is something that one game will teach him, why does it have to be a game in the VFL?

Absolutely spot on. There are three generic reasons I would drop a player: they are not in the best 22, tactics/match ups and to "teach them a lesson" type reasons.

Even though Gian is struggling, he is easily in our 22 and as you've already mentioned, he is in his mid 20's and a highly rated leader at the club.

[GVGjr]

Ins: Aker, Reid, Cooney, Tiller

Out: Gia, Ward, Harbrow, Grant

Callan and Welsh didn't play VFL and I think that rules them out of contention

Both Callan and Welsh played

[Bulldog Revolution]

I am all for dropping players, but there has to be a purpose behind it. Only St Kilda would know what was behind the Dal Santo demotion (and recall)...if you want to drop Gia (for example) under what criteria is he brought back in? If it is just a kick in the pants, how about ignoring this strategy and actually COACHING him? He is in his mid-20's and considered a leader at the club...what are you hoping he will actually learn by playing at Williamstown? And if it is something that one game will teach him, why does it have to be a game in the VFL?

Whilst I was baying for his blood yesterday I think on team balance against the Saints he is needed given that Ward and Harbrow are likely to miss.

My message to Gia would be about physically imposinge himself on the game, and doing more of the 1% & 2%ers when he is not getting loads of the footy. I dont think he does enough of the heavy lifting consistently enough to be legitimately considered a future leader.

He's not going to be an Alwyn Davey but he can set an example by putting his body on the line,his head over the ball, tackling etc, or just generally imposing himself on the game. He is capable of it, but mentally he seems to have too many games where he is not switched on to do it, or prepared to do this stuff.

[LostDoggy]

Unfortunately we can make all of the changes on the periphery we like - but if our best players dont play better, then results like yesterday are going to happen.

Of all of the outs discussed here:
- I think Cal Ward needs a few weeks at Willi. He is a young kid (remember, he was still TAC Cup eligible in 2008) who is still finding his way. 5 is enough.
- I wouldn't play Mitch Hahn. 15 minutes of good footy all year (last quarter, round 1) - he simply needs to do a lot more.

That is really it for me. I would bring Tim Callan in for Ward, and Scott Welsh in for Hahn. Aker will also come in of course, and that will probably be the unlucky Harbrow who misses out...

Moving deck chairs/finding new deck chairs wont fix it right now - just have to go back to base principles and run harder to provide an option...who would have ever thought that our side would swing so far around from the 'skirting the packs' team that copped so much criticism in 2007?

I read Leon Cameron's comments about Boyd's game on Judd. To me it is terrific that he followed instructions and did the job, but to me with Gilbee not sniffing it, Cross refusing to kick it and kids like Ward struggling, we simply HAD to release Boyd from Judd and allow him more freedom to win the ball.

Gia fought back in the third quarter but I thought he was pretty insipid early - those early missed goals really cost us. Pointing the finger at Lake near 3/4 time is fine, but poor finishing early really had us chasing tail all day...a couple of goals and the Carlton mids/half-backs would have had to pay our guys a bit more respect.

Harbrow would indeed be unlucky -- he worked hard and there were far worse in the backline, Hargrave included.

I watched Judd through the binoculars all day. Boyd did an excellent job on him, as did Griffen when it was his turn. Picken, Gian and even Johnno all had stints with Judd and did not do much worse. Judd didn't influence the game but he did useful little things.

Judd is an incredible mover - he floats ahead of contests, knowing when to sprint to a position and when he can conserve energy. Watching him like this was like viewing 'Zidane, the Movie'.

[Mantis]

My turn:

Out: Ward, Addison, Eagleton, Grant
In: Akermanis, Everitt, O'Keefe, Callan


My team:

B: Callan, Williams, Hargrave
HB: Gilbee, Morris, Everitt
C: Hill, Boyd, O'Keefe
HF: Murphy, Hahn, Higgins
F: Johnson, Lake, Harbrow
R: Hudson, Picken, Griffen

Int: Minson, Akermanis, Giansiracusa, Cross

Williams to Kosi (if he plays), Morris to Riewoldt.

* A few more on notice.

* Happy to swap Everitt and Tiller.

* Playing an under-done Murphy cost us dearly so not sure on Cooney.

[LostDoggy]

Addison is a big call considering how good he was a few weeks back!
Is it a rest thing?

Also Lake at FF is another, I wouldn't call that unless he is seen at training leading out and taking shots.
He does look about the only one capable of taking a grab, but he has no confidence at shooting yet.

[Mantis]

Addison is a big call considering how good he was a few weeks back!
Is it a rest thing?

He looked flat against Carlton + his skill level was very poor which may have been as a result of him carrying heavy legs.

[boydogs]

My turn:

Out: Ward, Addison, Eagleton, Grant
In: Akermanis, Everitt, O'Keefe, Callan


My team:

B: Callan, Williams, Hargrave
HB: Gilbee, Morris, Everitt
C: Hill, Boyd, O'Keefe
HF: Murphy, Hahn, Higgins
F: Johnson, Lake, Harbrow
R: Hudson, Picken, Griffen

Int: Minson, Akermanis, Giansiracusa, Cross

Williams to Kosi (if he plays), Morris to Riewoldt.

* A few more on notice.

* Happy to swap Everitt and Tiller.

* Playing an under-done Murphy cost us dearly so not sure on Cooney.

I like:

- The rebounders Gilbee and Everitt in the backline
- Hill on the wing
- O'Keefe in the side
- Murphy and Harbrow forward

Not sure about:

- Lake at full forward - other defenders all moving up a level in the quality of their opponent for an unproven return. Worth a shot, but would prefer not to have to steal from the defense to fix the attack
- Leaving Hahn and Minson in the side - time for Welsh and Skipper?
- O'Keefe not in the forward line - isn't he a goalsneak?
- Whether Cooney will be as out of sorts as Murphy was - he has played more footy than Murphy this year with only two weeks (which was only going to be one) out

[Mantis]

I like:

- The rebounders Gilbee and Everitt in the backline
- Hill on the wing
- O'Keefe in the side
- Murphy and Harbrow forward

Harbrow is in the forwardline to add some pressure which was near on non-existent yesterday.


Not sure about:

- Lake at full forward - other defenders all moving up a level in the quality of their opponent for an unproven return. Worth a shot, but would prefer not to have to steal from the defense to fix the attack
- Leaving Hahn and Minson in the side - time for Welsh and Skipper?
- O'Keefe not in the forward line - isn't he a goalsneak?
- Whether Cooney will be as out of sorts as Murphy was - he has played more footy than Murphy this year with only two weeks (which was only going to be one) out

- Who will Lake pick up in the St.Kilda forwardline? I can't find a match-up so time to bite the bullet.

- Welsh isn't even playing for Willi so should be no chance. Minson was actually ok against Carlton.

- O'Keefe has been playing midfield & forward, but importantly he uses the ball well which is what we badly need.

- If Cooney is fit he plays, just not sure if he is. I would probably drop Picken if he plays and force Cross to play a defensive role.

[comrade]

Out: Ward, Addison, Eagleton, Hahn
In: Akermanis, Everitt, O'Keefe, Callan

Picken gets another week to do a job on one of Montagna or Hayes.
Grant stays in as he showed good effort but no reward.

B: Callan, Lake, Williams
HB: Gilbee, Morris, Hargrave
C: Hill, Boyd, Everitt
HF: Murphy, Grant, Higgins
F: Johnson, Minson, Harbrow
R: Hudson, Picken, Griffen
INT: Akermanis, Giansiracusa, Cross, O'Keefe

What's obvious is that we need an injection of pace in the midfield (that bench looks ultra slow) - I hope the new recruiting team is scouting the fastest young blokes with an eye to the 2009 draft.

[LostDoggy]

I reckon this is a bit funny - the recruiting team has been blasted for signing up skinny, running type players, now it seems the dogs are light on for "pace". Maybe by next draft the dogs will have the right combination:D

[boydogs]

- Welsh isn't even playing for Willi so should be no chance.

GVGjr posted earlier on this thread that he did play - but if not, how about Skipper for Hahn? I would rather a taller target or even defensive forward (Harbrow) in his place with his current output. I hope Hahn can give more down the track but seems well out of form or injured at the moment. Even leaving Grant in the side but using him correctly seems a better option

[Mantis]

Out: Ward, Addison, Eagleton, Hahn
In: Akermanis, Everitt, O'Keefe, Callan

Picken gets another week to do a job on one of Montagna or Hayes.
Grant stays in as he showed good effort but no reward.

B: Callan, Lake, Williams
HB: Gilbee, Morris, Hargrave
C: Hill, Boyd, Everitt
HF: Murphy, Grant, Higgins
F: Johnson, Minson, Harbrow
R: Hudson, Picken, Griffen
INT: Akermanis, Giansiracusa, Cross, O'Keefe

What's obvious is that we need an injection of pace in the midfield (that bench looks ultra slow) - I hope the new recruiting team is scouting the fastest young blokes with an eye to the 2009 draft.

Who do Lake & Williams pick-up? I am assuming Morris is going to Riewoldt.

[bornadog]

He looked flat against Carlton + his skill level was very poor which may have been as a result of him carrying heavy legs.

or the virus he had. He had it last week against the Weagles and missed training during the week.

[bornadog]

My turn:

My team:

B: Callan, Williams, Hargrave
HB: Gilbee, Morris, Everitt
C: Hill, Boyd, O'Keefe
HF: Murphy, Hahn, Higgins
F: Johnson, Lake, Harbrow
R: Hudson, Picken, Griffen

Int: Minson, Akermanis, Giansiracusa, Cross

Williams to Kosi (if he plays), Morris to Riewoldt.


* Playing an under-done Murphy cost us dearly so not sure on Cooney.

Not a fan of moving Lake , but hey why not.

Cooney must play. and Murphy will be better for the run.

[LostDoggy]

Gee Im glad Jerry is not a selector, drop Picken? The guy has been in our best up until yesterday. Perhaps you need to actually go to a game to form a decent opinion rather than listening to the commentators.

My problem with Picken is already have to many 'honest' battlers (Addison,Picken,Cross,Boyd-bit harsh i know, Williams, Callan, Eagleton, Tiller,Morris, Ward, LAke, etc etc)
FOr our game plan to be successful we need to be a highly skilled team , hitting small-mid size forwards. Hard to do under pressure when at least half the team has suspect disposal.


Plus if Addison cant play back pocket on the opposition smalls, what use is he?

[LostDoggy]

Plus if Addison cant play back pocket on the opposition smalls, what use is he?
I don't think he was useless 2 weeks back and he wasn't playing back pocket.

[Desipura]

My problem with Picken is already have to many 'honest' battlers (Addison,Picken,Cross,Boyd-bit harsh i know, Williams, Callan, Eagleton, Tiller,Morris, Ward, LAke, etc etc)
FOr our game plan to be successful we need to be a highly skilled team , hitting small-mid size forwards. Hard to do under pressure when at least half the team has suspect disposal.


Plus if Addison cant play back pocket on the opposition smalls, what use is he?
I see your point, we do have a number of players who are "honest battlers" however it would be a bit harsh to drop Picken at this stage. These honest battlers can help win you the necessary games to get into the finals. Come finals time where the intensity is even higher, it may be another story.
Boyd is more than an honest battler IMHO, his disposal has improved considerably in the last few years.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not sure about those calling for Slim to be axed. He's been one of our shining lights since coming into the team. I think he's improved each week and the game against Carlton was the first where he actually broke free of the constant tag mindset and got himself a few possies. I'd be shattered to see him dropped. 5 or 6 other names would be up before his easily.

Keep Grant in for at least another week. It was his first game, he was out of his league after the first 15 mins, but showed some promise during that time. he just needs a kick up the arse because a few times he looked disinterested. A solid talking to should help him out.

For God's sake, bring in those in the Magoos that merit a game! Skip, Reid, O'Keefe. I want to see Everitt in the seniors. If Williams, Lake, Shaggy or Gilbee goes down with an injury then he and the Tillerman are the natural replacements. These two may even warrant a run up front.

[LostDoggy]

I find it quite staggering that Wil Minson's name has not been brought up. We need someone who can actually contribute around the ground, not just ruck contests. It's not good enough to be a just a backup ruckman and have no other strings to your bow.

Either bring Skipper in and play Minson as well, or drop Minson and give Skipper his chance because he has been fantastic for Willy.

The calls for Williams to be dropped leave me absolutely dumb founded. He's only played 20 games and competes hard, more than I can say for some of our 150+ game players.

[Sedat]

I find it quite staggering that Wil Minson's name has not been brought up. We need someone who can actually contribute around the ground, not just ruck contests. It's not good enough to be a just a backup ruckman and have no other strings to your bow.

Either bring Skipper in and play Minson as well, or drop Minson and give Skipper his chance because he has been fantastic for Willy.

The calls for Williams to be dropped leave me absolutely dumb founded. He's only played 20 games and competes hard, more than I can say for some of our 150+ game players.
Hey TAMA, I think you'll find Big Will's name has been placed under the microscope earlier in the thread. Personally I think having 2 lumbering types in the ruck against St Kilda's two lumbering types will play into their hands: Hudson is safe as houses because of his fanatical desire to contest after the stoppage (something that will be critical against the St Kilda midfield). So do we go with an out-of-sorts Minson, or do we change things up a bit and give Skipper the chance to offer something more around the ground with his mobility. In form, I still think Minson is part of our best 22 but he does need to go back to Willy and find some form.

I'm not sold on the benefits of having all 3 of Skipper, Minson and Hudson in the 22. Our midfield is not firing on all cylinders as it is, so I'd much rather we kept the full complement of mids.

Williams is a very important piece of the puzzle structurally. Take him out and we are forced to play the mid size defenders on the big forwards - we also lose that rebound drive from the mid sized defenders abnd become very predictable (ie: lay it off to Gilbee or Griffen). Provided he can keep his direct opponent in check (something he has been able to achieve so far this year), his presence in our back half is essential.

[Mofra]

GVGjr posted earlier on this thread that he did play - but if not, how about Skipper for Hahn?
I'd be prepared to make this change. Skipper is more likely to take a grab, would show as much (if not more) physical presence as he is used to bullocking ruckwork, and knowing this is his last chance would be foaming at the mouth for another crack so chasing would be high on the agenda.

[Mofra]

Boyd is more than an honest battler IMHO, his disposal has improved considerably in the last few years.
Boyd is probably leading our B&F at the moment with Missy.

[LostDoggy]

Hey TAMA, I think you'll find Big Will's name has been placed under the microscope earlier in the thread. Personally I think having 2 lumbering types in the ruck against St Kilda's two lumbering types will play into their hands: Hudson is safe as houses because of his fanatical desire to contest after the stoppage (something that will be critical against the St Kilda midfield). So do we go with an out-of-sorts Minson, or do we change things up a bit and give Skipper the chance to offer something more around the ground with his mobility. In form, I still think Minson is part of our best 22 but he does need to go back to Willy and find some form.

I'm not sold on the benefits of having all 3 of Skipper, Minson and Hudson in the 22. Our midfield is not firing on all cylinders as it is, so I'd much rather we kept the full complement of mids.

Williams is a very important piece of the puzzle structurally. Take him out and we are forced to play the mid size defenders on the big forwards - we also lose that rebound drive from the mid sized defenders abnd become very predictable (ie: lay it off to Gilbee or Griffen). Provided he can keep his direct opponent in check (something he has been able to achieve so far this year), his presence in our back half is essential.

Hey Sedat,

I say bite the bullet and give Will a few weeks at Willy to get his hands on the footy and remember what the leather feels like.

I believe that Skipper has earnt his spot by playing some good footy in the 2's and needs to be rewarded. I agree with you that 3 ruckman probably wont work, so I would definately drop Will. He has been a passenger this year and we need someone who can contribute and make an impact around the ground and up forward.

Will is in our best 22 until Roghhead has developed enough to take his place. It is my opinion that Will wont make it as an AFL footballer and once Cordy and Roughy are ready he will be at Williamstown waiting for one of them to get injured!

Williams has only played 20 games and the expectations placed on him to perform to a high standard are misplaced, he is learning the game and will make many mistakes along
the way, he is developing nicely as far as I am concerned.

[LostDoggy]

As GVGjr said, Welsh did play for Williamstown on Sunday, so did Callan. Callan took a terrible knock to the ribs by Nathan Thompson and was taken off. Not sure how he has pulled up. Welsh seemed to move around okay. It was a funny game to watch in such wild weather conditions (I recorded it). Everitt's 80m kick for a goal was especially entertaining.

I don't like to see too many changes in one week. Aker for Harbrow. Would love to have Cooney back but would rather err on the side of caution with his knee.

[Sedat]

I'm not sure about those calling for Slim to be axed. He's been one of our shining lights since coming into the team. I think he's improved each week and the game against Carlton was the first where he actually broke free of the constant tag mindset and got himself a few possies. I'd be shattered to see him dropped. 5 or 6 other names would be up before his easily.
Jerry's rationale for dropping Picken is right - we do have a current over-abundence of mid sized players with disposal and pace queries, but I don't think Picken should be the one dropped either. He is not a ball hunter, and he has already shown in 4 weeks that he has a far greater propensity to apply himself in a purely negative role. Both Cross and Boyd are natural ball winners, and because they get sucked to the ball too much they often lose touch with their direct opponents to be effective in a purely defensive role.

The tandem of Boyd and Picken on Judd was quite effective on Sunday, and resulted in 3 goals being kicked on Judd's direct opponent. But the week before Kerr really torched us because he wasn't assigned a hard tag until the horse had bolted (still baffles me that we didn't do this from the start).

For the first time since 2004, Cross is under some sort of pressure - I think he could and should be used more as an offensive outlet on occasions seeing as the opposition are peeling off him and sweating on the next link in the chain (usually Gilbee or Griffen). They won't be expecting this and it will make us far less predictable in the process. Cross still needs to keep winning the ball in contested situations, but I'd love to see his uncontested possessions lift in the next few weeks.

[Mantis]

For the first time since 2004, Cross is under some sort of pressure - I think he could and should be used more as an offensive outlet on occasions seeing as the opposition are peeling off him and sweating on the next link in the chain (usually Gilbee or Griffen). They won't be expecting this and it will make us far less predictable in the process. Cross still needs to keep winning the ball in contested situations, but I'd love to see his uncontested possessions lift in the next few weeks.

But when he finds space he doesn't use it correctly. Rather than attacking the space in front and gaining metres quickly he waits to see which players are around him before deciding if to run & carry. In modern footy with sides flooding and zoning you can't afford to wait because in this time sides are quickly zoning back to fill space and any advantage you had is quickly gone.

[LostDoggy]

Mitch Hahn has to go. He has not brought the hardness and defensive pressure at all this year. The only contribution he has made is 4 goals against Freo, and some of them were gifts.

[Sedat]

But when he finds space he doesn't use it correctly. Rather than attacking the space in front and gaining metres quickly he waits to see which players are around him before deciding if to run & carry. In modern footy with sides flooding and zoning you can't afford to wait because in this time sides are quickly zoning back to fill space and any advantage you had is quickly gone.
Just to use that 2nd qtr non shot at goal as an example, say when Crossy receives he chooses to run into goal and he drills it from 30, the opposition will think twice next time about peeling off Crossy and going to the next target. It worked when we found Picken in space inside 50 because Carlton gifted the opportunity instead preferring to guard space further upfield and more potentially offensive Bulldog weapons.

I'm certainly not avocating that Cross changes his modus operandi completely but it would be good to see him use his superior fitness to occasionally run and receive offensively and keep the opposition on their toes - he did half that in the above example just didn't go on with it with the actual delivery. I think it would be good for Cross' future career longevity that he can overcome the opposition's tactics against him in a proactive way that utilises one of his great assets. He has shown in the past that he is capable of doing this - I recall he kicked 3 goals in a quarter against Melbourne last year doing just that (admittedly against weak opposition).

The old "dish it off to Gilbee or Griffen" routine has become very easy to read for the opposition.

[Go_Dogs]

Just to use that 2nd qtr non shot at goal as an example, say when Crossy receives he chooses to run into goal and he drills it from 30, the opposition will think twice next time about peeling off Crossy and going to the next target. It worked when we found Picken in space inside 50 because Carlton gifted the opportunity instead preferring to guard space further upfield and more potentially offensive Bulldog weapons.

I'm certainly not avocating that Cross changes his modus operandi completely but it would be good to see him use his superior fitness to occasionally run and receive offensively and keep the opposition on their toes - he did half that in the above example just didn't go on with it with the actual delivery. I think it would be good for Cross' future career longevity that he can overcome the opposition's tactics against him in a proactive way that utilises one of his great assets. He has shown in the past that he is capable of doing this - I recall he kicked 3 goals in a quarter against Melbourne last year doing just that (admittedly against weak opposition).

The old "dish it off to Gilbee or Griffen" routine has become very easy to read for the opposition.


Agreed. Player who consistently dish it off don't get tackled, opposition players are smart enough these days to back off them, read the play and intercept the handball or tackle the receiving player. It's something that we definitely need to work on - being more spontaneous and not looking to do the exact same thing everytime. (This does not just apply to Crossy IMO).

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'm not sure about those calling for Slim to be axed. He's been one of our shining lights since coming into the team. I think he's improved each week and the game against Carlton was the first where he actually broke free of the constant tag mindset and got himself a few possies. I'd be shattered to see him dropped. 5 or 6 other names would be up before his easily.

Keep Grant in for at least another week. It was his first game, he was out of his league after the first 15 mins, but showed some promise during that time. he just needs a kick up the arse because a few times he looked disinterested. A solid talking to should help him out.

For God's sake, bring in those in the Magoos that merit a game! Skip, Reid, O'Keefe. I want to see Everitt in the seniors. If Williams, Lake, Shaggy or Gilbee goes down with an injury then he and the Tillerman are the natural replacements. These two may even warrant a run up front.

I reckon you're spot on the money.

Bring in Skip, Reid, O'Keefe,Everitt and Tiller and drop no-one.

Play with 27. That'll **** 'em.


So, who makes way for the 5 inclusions?

[BulldogBelle]

I'd drop Cross.
A lot of his passes seem to go backwards or are very short.
He generally makes a short lw-energy hand-ball and its up to the receiver of that hand-ball to put in the hard effort and push forward with it. Its not good enough to get the ball and make a dinky hand-ball - that's not good enough. Another player has to do the good work.

I would like to know how many meters Cross has gained compared to the others in the side.

I am just too annoyed at Cross for not having shots at goal when he is in range, its disruptive and delaterious to the side. Often Cross will get the ball in the forward line, look up, see that the goals are a whopping 30 meters away and not have a shot. Then we lose the ball.

There are no position in the side suitable for Cross.
He can't be put at the centre bounces because he is not good enough at clearances. He is not fast enough for the wing. Craps his dacks when it comes to snapping for goal so is no good for the forward line. And is not tough enough or fast enough for the back flank. We have several better taggers than him.

Harbrow has not shown anything much exceptional. I reckon that he has had his chances. He will not be a good player. Better to give somebody else a go.

Addsion is not top class either, but his courage is inspiring so I'm prepared to keep playing him. We need a tough guy. Callen is a more skilled player than Addison.

Grant was unlucky, was in a match that didn't suit him. They didn't seem to kick to him. A week or so more in the ressies then look at replacing Hahn.

Murphy's comeback was almost a disaster. He cost us 6 goals. 3 goals he gave away due to poor passes and the 3 goals we should have got if his passes were good.

In: Aker, Cooney, Callen
Out: Cross, Harbrow, Grant

[bornadog]

In: Aker, Cooney, Callen
Out: Cross, Harbrow, Grant

Now being realistic, Cross will not be dropped.

[1eyedog]

Jesus never dropped his Cross, I'd doubt Rocket would either.

[The Coon Dog]

Tom Williams will miss this week. He snapped his plantar fascia (tissue that runs along the arch of the foot) early on v Carlton & will miss 1 game.

[Rance Fan]

Cross wont be dropped. We need him and Boyd to get the hard ball in the packs, he just needs to outlay it to our high skilled players/recievers.

[1eyedog]

Tom Williams will miss this week. He snapped his plantar fascia (tissue that runs along the arch of the foot) early on v Carlton & will miss 1 game.

Any idea how long this type of injury will keep a player out for TCD?

[LostDoggy]

Tom Williams will miss this week. He snapped his plantar fascia (tissue that runs along the arch of the foot) early on v Carlton & will miss 1 game.

Is that common or another new type injury for williams.

[Rance Fan]

Tom Williams will miss this week. He snapped his plantar fascia (tissue that runs along the arch of the foot) early on v Carlton & will miss 1 game.

With that injury i thought that once you snap it, it releases the pain and its right to go. I recall hearing Robert Harvey jumped off a table to snap his so he could come up the following week:confused::confused:

[The Coon Dog]

With that injury i thought that once you snap it, it releases the pain and its right to go. I recall hearing Robert Harvey jumped off a table to snap his so he could come up the following week:confused::confused:

Will miss just one week.

[LostDoggy]

Well there goes our hope of playing Lake up forward:mad:

[comrade]

Will miss just one week.

I'll believe it when I see him lining up against Adelaide... ;)

[LostDoggy]

Changes:
Skipper for Hahn, - Hahn has been a spectator for the last 4 games.
O'Keefe for Ward - Ward's been ok for a young'n, time to give O'Keefe a run though.
Cooney for Picken - Love his defensive skill, but I think this costs us that extra offensive midfielder
Callan for Harbrow - Thats is Callan's fit - good match up for Milne.
Akermanis for Eagleton - Bit off a swap for the older fellah's.
Everitt for Williams - If Williams misses through injury.

I think Murphy and Hargrave need to play as defensive forwards on Fisher and Goddard to try and limit the Saints rebound.

I hope they at least pay Ray a little attention....

[Rocket Science]

Tom Williams will miss this week. He snapped his plantar fascia (tissue that runs along the arch of the foot) early on v Carlton & will miss 1 game.

I gather that means Lakey should be spared any critical decisions in front of goal, this week at least.

[The Pie Man]

I gather that means Lakey should be spared any critical decisions in front of goal, this week at least.

You'd think so, though if Kosi doesn't come up and Morris goes to Reiwoldt, you never know. Would probably take Gardiner if he drifted forward, which teams are inclined to do with their rucks/other talls against us.

I maintain Lake can be a successful FF one day

How funny is RS' avatar? The 'yeah I know' look on Lake's face, it's killing me.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Changes:
Skipper for Hahn, - Hahn has been a spectator for the last 4 games.
O'Keefe for Ward - Ward's been of for a youngin, time to give O'Keefe a run though.
Cooney for Picken - Love his defensive skill, but I think this costs us that extra offensive midfielder
Callan for Harbrow - Thats is Callan's fit - good match up for Milne.
Akermanis for Eagleton - Bit off a swap for the older fellah's.
Everitt for Williams - If Williams misses through injury.

I think Murphy and Hargrave need to play as defensive forwards on Fisher and Goddard to try and limit the Saints rebound.

I hope they at least pay Ray a little attention....

I seriously hope we don't make 6 changes.
Eagleton should not be dropped.
I personally would be loathe to rush Cooney back, when we already have Murph who is underdone.

As for Picken being dropped because he costs us an extra offensive midfielder, I'd much rather the coach trying to exhort Cross to use the space opposition players are giving him to run, carry and attack, and keep Picken in.

I'd also consider playing Harbrow up forward back into the role he played well during the finals last year.

If Williams is out then either Everitt or Tiller to come in.
Hahn to go for Okeefe
and Aker to come in for Ward.

[LostDoggy]

IN: Aker, Cooney
OUT: Ward, Harbrow

I think Grant needs a few games to see where he is at. It won't help his development to get 1 senior game and then a stretch in the Bees. O'Keefe is also unlucky. If he is in the bests again next week then he will debut.

[alwaysadog]

I am having troubles with many of the contributions to this thread.

I know the gallery is about to have a Slavador Dali exhibition but the spirit of surrealism seems to have infected this thread.

One week we are world beaters and about to become a dynasty, the next over half the side is suss and our two recent B&Fs are no good.

Surely the truth lies somewhere between the extreme mood swings.

[Rocket Science]

I am having troubles with many of the contributions to this thread.

I know the gallery is about to have a Slavador Dali exhibition but the spirit of surrealism seems to have infected this thread.

One week we are world beaters and about to become a dynasty, the next over half the side is suss and our two recent B&Fs are no good.

Surely the truth lies somewhere between the extreme mood swings.


Sounds like you're also describing the garden-variety knee-jerkage favoured by much of the footy meeja.

[mjp]

Surely the truth lies somewhere between the extreme mood swings.

Yep - things are never as good as you hope or as bad as you fear.

To me more than 2-3 changes would be very surprising...I just hope that continuing to try and develop a forward line continues. Grant might not be the answer yet (that seemed blindingly obvious last week) and Murphy is clearly not fit enough to play the lead-up role - but we do need to try and find out if someone can do it so that when Murphy IS back and firing we have a second option.

[Mantis]

To me more than 2-3 changes would be very surprising...I just hope that continuing to try and develop a forward line continues. Grant might not be the answer yet (that seemed blindingly obvious last week) and Murphy is clearly not fit enough to play the lead-up role - but we do need to try and find out if someone can do it so that when Murphy IS back and firing we have a second option.

Any suggestions to who they might employ in this role?

[mjp]

Yep. But everyone will laugh so I am keeping it to myself.

[Go_Dogs]

Yep. But everyone will laugh so I am keeping it to myself.

Cameron Wight? :eek:

[mjp]

Cameron Wight? :eek:

I have no idea how to respond to that, but will say 'NO' just for clarity.

Think hard running, knows how to find space, fantastic overhead mark...but not the greatest kick.

[AndrewP6]

I am having troubles with many of the contributions to this thread.

I know the gallery is about to have a Slavador Dali exhibition but the spirit of surrealism seems to have infected this thread.

One week we are world beaters and about to become a dynasty, the next over half the side is suss and our two recent B&Fs are no good.

Surely the truth lies somewhere between the extreme mood swings.

:D:D:D Agreed....and at times, guilty, Your Honour...

[Sockeye Salmon]

mjp brought this up with me this morning. I think it's a sensational idea.

What skills do you need to be a good lead-up forward?

Endurance - tick.
Be able to mark - tick.
Know where and when to lead - unknown.

Ideally a lead-up forward will take a mark on the lead and feed it off to his choice of runners streaming past. If he has to stop and kick over the mark it's likely that the forward 50 will be full of the other coloured shirts anyway.

I was reading this morning that Simon Wiggins is 2nd to Riewoldt for marks as a lead-up forward this year. Cross could at least do the job Wiggins is doing. And Wiggins is a worse kick than Cross!

[Go_Dogs]

mjp brought this up with me this morning. I think it's a sensational idea.

What skills do you need to be a good lead-up forward?

Endurance - tick.
Be able to mark - tick.
Know where and when to lead - unknown.

Ideally a lead-up forward will take a mark on the lead and feed it off to his choice of runners streaming past. If he has to stop and kick over the mark it's likely that the forward 50 will be full of the other coloured shirts anyway.

I was reading this morning that Simon Wiggins is 2nd to Riewoldt for marks as a lead-up forward this year. Cross could at least do the job Wiggins is doing. And Wiggins is a worse kick than Cross!

Cross definitely has the overhead ability and endurance. His hands are quick so he can delivery quick feeds to players running past too.

Could seriously be a good option as I don't think Cross has been having his usual impact in the middle at the moment.

Hmmm. Interesting one mjp.

[Mantis]

Cross definitely has the overhead ability and endurance. His hands are quick so he can delivery quick feeds to players running past too.

Could seriously be a good option as I don't think Cross has been having his usual impact in the middle at the moment.

Hmmm. Interesting one mjp.

He has been spending a fair bit of his time on the wing.

[Bulldog4life]

I am not sure about the ins or outs but yesterday I was at Whitten Oval and saw the last 5 minutes of training. There were only about 6 players on the ground when I arrived. Adam Cooney was the last to leave and looked sharp with his ball skills. He was doing individualised training with 3 of the training/conditioning staff.

The other thing that caught my eye was Brian Lake. He was the 2nd last player to leave the ground after what appeared to be goal kicking practice. When I say appeared to be well he was shooting for goal but for how long he was doing it and whether it was "organized" I have no idea. Just thought it was an interesting observation to pass on.

[bornadog]

I am not sure about the ins or outs but yesterday I was at Whitten Oval and saw the last 5 minutes of training. There were only about 6 players on the ground when I arrived. Adam Cooney was the last to leave and looked sharp with his ball skills. He was doing individualised training with 3 of the training/conditioning staff.

The other thing that caught my eye was Brian Lake. He was the 2nd last player to leave the ground after what appeared to be goal kicking practice. When I say appeared to be well he was shooting for goal but for how long he was doing it and whether it was "organized" I have no idea. Just thought it was an interesting observation to pass on.

At a function last night Rocket mentioned that he has told Lake to practise his goal kicking as it could come in handy. He doesn't have any confidence shooting at goal.

[Bulldog4life]

At a function last night Rocket mentioned that he has told Lake to practise his goal kicking as it could come in handy. He doesn't have any confidence shooting at goal.

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see what happens this week.

[Desipura]

At a function last night Rocket mentioned that he has told Lake to practise his goal kicking as it could come in handy. He doesn't have any confidence shooting at goal.
Really? I would not have known

[Sedat]

Grant might not be the answer yet (that seemed blindingly obvious last week) and Murphy is clearly not fit enough to play the lead-up role - but we do need to try and find out if someone can do it so that when Murphy IS back and firing we have a second option.
Your Cross suggestion definitely has merit, but if Grant is super quick and has terrific hands wouldn't he be the perfect option in the lead-up forward role while Murph is still coming to grips with the pace of the game following his injury lay-off?

His relative lack of size won't be an issue if he is used in this way, neither will his goal kicking. I guess the main query is whether or not he has the tank to do this for more than burst periods.

[The Pie Man]

mjp brought this up with me this morning. I think it's a sensational idea.

What skills do you need to be a good lead-up forward?

Endurance - tick.
Be able to mark - tick.
Know where and when to lead - unknown.

Ideally a lead-up forward will take a mark on the lead and feed it off to his choice of runners streaming past. If he has to stop and kick over the mark it's likely that the forward 50 will be full of the other coloured shirts anyway.

I was reading this morning that Simon Wiggins is 2nd to Riewoldt for marks as a lead-up forward this year. Cross could at least do the job Wiggins is doing. And Wiggins is a worse kick than Cross!

This is uncanny - and probably not believable to all as I'm posting this after it's already been suggested - but I was thinking about Johnson's role in the forward line earlier this week and that he's in the last 12-24 months of his career, who could take over.

Daniel Cross

Endurance is super important here, to be able to lead, and double back, and then lead again. Great overhead mark (like Johnson) and if he can take grabs within 40-45 he can at least get the journey (anything over that he clearly will struggle)

Will also provide forward line pressure with tackling and a hardness at the contest - probably everything Hahn's supposed to do except with a better fitness base.

Quite a reasonable idea ( I won't lay claim to it, but I did think it!!) ;)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Your Cross suggestion definitely has merit, but if Grant is super quick and has terrific hands wouldn't he be the perfect option in the lead-up forward role while Murph is still coming to grips with the pace of the game following his injury lay-off?

His relative lack of size won't be an issue if he is used in this way, neither will his goal kicking. I guess the main query is whether or not he has the tank to do this for more than burst periods.

It's a big call to give a key responsibility like this to a 2nd gamer.

Also do we really want Sam Fisher on a rookie? He will probably play off him which would give Grant some opportunity but it would be a seriously high risk strategy and Fisher could really hurt us going the other way.

[LostDoggy]

This is uncanny - and probably not believable to all as I'm posting this after it's already been suggested - but I was thinking about Johnson's role in the forward line earlier this week and that he's in the last 12-24 months of his career, who could take over.

Daniel Cross

Endurance is super important here, to be able to lead, and double back, and then lead again. Great overhead mark (like Johnson) and if he can take grabs within 40-45 he can at least get the journey (anything over that he clearly will struggle)

Will also provide forward line pressure with tackling and a hardness at the contest - probably everything Hahn's supposed to do except with a better fitness base.

Quite a reasonable idea ( I won't lay claim to it, but I did think it!!) ;)

Sorry to disagree guys but do you think that Cross has the pace off the mark to play this role, or the ability to read the play so he can time the lead?? From what I can see he is not an explosive runner, nor an instinctive play reader, if you couple this with his lack of height I think he would struggle in this role. Yes he can run a direct opponent to death but most defenses play as a zone and if his lead is not that quick and at all predictable they will peel off and spoil.

Look at our best lead up forwards, Murphy, Johnno and Acker, they all have pace and are great readers of the play. I just can't see Crossy developing these attributes. It would be better to stick with Grant who is quick, 6'3" and has good hands. Also if the lead up forward always offloads to better kicks, opposition teams will work that out really quickly and do we want Crossy taking the shot from 45 out or trying to hit a target by foot??

[Sedat]

Sorry to disagree guys but do you think that Cross has the pace off the mark to play this role, or the ability to read the play so he can time the lead?? From what I can see he is not an explosive runner, nor an instinctive play reader, if you couple this with his lack of height I think he would struggle in this role. Yes he can run a direct opponent to death but most defenses play as a zone and if his lead is not that quick and at all predictable they will peel off and spoil.

Look at our best lead up forwards, Murphy, Johnno and Acker, they all have pace and are great readers of the play. I just can't see Crossy developing these attributes. It would be better to stick with Grant who is quick, 6'3" and has good hands. Also if the lead up forward always offloads to better kicks, opposition teams will work that out really quickly and do we want Crossy taking the shot from 45 out or trying to hit a target by foot??
Cross is 1 cm taller than Murphy and towers over both Johnno and Aker. Pace off the mark is definitely a tick against him, but I wouldn't expect a player like Cross, who is clearly smart enough to find a heap of the footy in midfield, to suddenly lose his footy smarts if shifted closer to goal.

[Sedat]

It's a big call to give a key responsibility like this to a 2nd gamer.

Also do we really want Sam Fisher on a rookie? He will probably play off him which would give Grant some opportunity but it would be a seriously high risk strategy and Fisher could really hurt us going the other way.
It's the old high risk, high reward strategy. To take no risk in countering Fisher's large presence in defensive 50 would be to try and avoid his direct opponent - but then all he will do is zone off repeatedly and give the likes of Dawson a chop-out as the 3rd man in. Also if we take the low risk option of passing it laterally to a free player off half back and move it forward at a snail's pace to try and deny St Kilda the ball, we will be playing into their defender's plans and will be looking at a Freo/Port scoreline. We will have to take the game up to St Kilda and all the other teams utilising this shit-to-watch midfield press/cluster/zone/whatever-you-want-to-call-it game plan and run at it (and through it) with purpose.

Bigger picture in 2009, we will have to overcome this tactic in order to challenge for a premiership. We have loked shaky for large parts of games involving teams that have used this tactic against us, but no doubt the MC are aware of this and are working towards a plan of their own to counter this.

As I said previously, my only worry with Grant in the lead-up role is that he may not have the tank to make multiple leads and present in the Reiwoldt/Wiggins vein. I was very impressed with the workrate of Wiggins on Sunday - he was constantly mobile and gave countless opportunities to his mids further upfield to spot him up; even the likes of Fevola and Betts got into the action and did the same on occasions.

[The Pie Man]

AFL website listed Williams as a 'fair chance' to play this week - so I imagine he'll be listed in the extended squad and given 'every chance' to play....but will be a late exclusion

[LostDoggy]

Cross is 1 cm taller than Murphy and towers over both Johnno and Aker. Pace off the mark is definitely a tick against him, but I wouldn't expect a player like Cross, who is clearly smart enough to find a heap of the footy in midfield, to suddenly lose his footy smarts if shifted closer to goal.


I would suggest the issue with height only comes into play because of the question on pace. If the average defender is about 190cm then in most cases he will have about a 5cm reach advantage on Cross which means if he can close him then he can spoil. Lack of pace off the mark means that a good defender will close the gap.

Watching Murph, Johnno and Acker they all are very good at putting a gap on their defender both through pace and timing, which means their lack of height is not an issue, the defender is either to far back to use their reach advantage or arrives to late and infringes.

On the question of smarts I would agree Cross is a smart player in his role, he is great at finding players in tight and releasing them to deliver the ball forward, or running in support of players. I would not rate him as highly in terms of his ability to think a couple of steps ahead of the play as a forward needs to ie, watching a move start on half back and knowing where and when to lead. IMO this is a different skill to knowing where to run at a stoppage or closer to the ball. To lead well you need to know where the ball is going not only before it gets there but before your defender does. He may have that ability but I have not seen it from him.

Would be happy to be proven wrong on these points as we can never have too many players capable of being dangerous near goal. :)

[alwaysadog]

Sounds like you're also describing the garden-variety knee-jerkage favoured by much of the footy meeja.

I agree that's the usual form for our supposed football experts, but you have to hand it to some of the posters in this thread they've out done done them by a factor of ten.

Occasionally when I have too much to drink crazy ideas occur. The next morning I see their stupidity. This is like being with drunks who have never sobered up.

[alwaysadog]

Yep - things are never as good as you hope or as bad as you fear.

To me more than 2-3 changes would be very surprising...I just hope that continuing to try and develop a forward line continues. Grant might not be the answer yet (that seemed blindingly obvious last week) and Murphy is clearly not fit enough to play the lead-up role - but we do need to try and find out if someone can do it so that when Murphy IS back and firing we have a second option.

You know what your trouble is mjp, you think heads are for thinking not just a place to rest the cap. When will we learn?