Josh Hill - who has he overtaken?

[Mofra]

I know positives in the past two rounds haven't been particularly obvious, but yesterday I was impressed with the continual imporvement of Josh Hill.

Forgetting his single game in 07, this is really his second season. He's been (with Johnno) our most dangerous forward, he is probably behind only Lake as the best overhead mark in the side, runs hard, finishes well and generally takes the right option with his disposal.

I know many could only just get him into their best 22 at the start of the year, but gadzooks he has cemented his spot, inserted a flagpole & dedicated the location to an AFL career.

The forward line pre-season was going to consist of (by broad concensus) Johnson, Hahn, Murphy, Minson (resting), Welsh and Aker, with one mid rotating through such as Gia, Griff or Cooney when Aker or Minson go into the middle. We now look like we need two Josh Hills - one on the wing and one forward.

As a forward he seems to have overtaken Hahn, Gia, Aker - in fact everyone except Johnson & a fit Murphy. In the midfield he is our best wingman, chases hard and with the ability to play outside & deliver well, is vital in a midfield sporting inside mids the likes of Cross, Ward, Boyd, and possibly spells from Hahn or Reid as the season wears on.

Just wondering - is he now in our top 10? Are there really that many guys ahead of him at the club at this stage of the season?

[Rocco Jones]

Hill is such a hard one to gauge. Has was awesome in the 3rd quarter yesterday and was the main catalyst in our mini and brief fightback. His workrate was very pleasing.

He avoids physical contact, doesn't gut run and skirts around packs far too often but his hands are amazing. I know this is blasphemous, but he just about has the best set of hands I have seen from a Doggies player. If his workrate gets to even a decent level, he is going to be a star.

[Ozza]

I'm not too sure where he ranks exactly - but his chasing and pressure was terrific yesterday. If he keeps that up - with his creativeness and ability to get in the right spots - he will be a very very good player for us.

[Sedat]

Hill is such a hard one to gauge. Has was awesome in the 3rd quarter yesterday and was the main catalyst in our mini and brief fightback. His workrate was very pleasing.

He avoids physical contact, doesn't gut run and skirts around packs far too often but his hands are amazing. I know this is blasphemous, but he just about has the best set of hands I have seen from a Doggies player. If his workrate gets to even a decent level, he is going to be a star.
Spot on the money Rocco. I was with a couple of Carlton mates and a Dogs mate yesterday, and we all noticed how clean he is with his hands. Unfortunately we also noticed a couple of his half-hearted chase downs when the opposition had the ball and his general lack of interest in pursuing a couple of contested ground balls. But we then noticed a couple of terrific 2nd efforts with his tackling (Harbrow take note - you don't have to be physically strong to be able to tackle effectively) and his first rate use of the ball when he got it. If he can develop a propensity to put his head over the ball when the heat is on at ground level (he doesn't lack bravery when the ball is in distupe in the air), and continue to work hard over the course of 120 minutes, he will be an absolute beauty.

[Mantis]

Personally I think he needs to play on the wing. We need guys who are willing to run and carry the ball and use the it well in this position rather than the other options being used at present. Sure he is a handful in the forwardline, but we have enough players on our list who should be playing this role effectively.... but we don't have too many run and carry players.

And yes he has probably moved from someone in our best 16 to 22, he is now comfortably in our best 15 players, but still needs to have a more consistent effort when we haven't got the ball.

I also think thats a big indictment on our more senior players that we are now looking for Hill to provide us a spark to get us going.

[Rocco Jones]

Personally I think he needs to play on the wing. We need guys who are willing to run and carry the ball and use the it well in this position rather than the other options being used at present. Sure he is a handful in the forwardline, but we have enough players on our list who should be playing this role effectively.... but we don't have too many run and carry players.


Agreed. He should still be a forward line treat playing on the wing if he is prepared to run hard, a bit like Richo.

[1eyedog]

I know positives in the past two rounds haven't been particularly obvious, but yesterday I was impressed with the continual imporvement of Josh Hill.

Forgetting his single game in 07, this is really his second season. He's been (with Johnno) our most dangerous forward, he is probably behind only Lake as the best overhead mark in the side, runs hard, finishes well and generally takes the right option with his disposal.

I know many could only just get him into their best 22 at the start of the year, but gadzooks he has cemented his spot, inserted a flagpole & dedicated the location to an AFL career.

The forward line pre-season was going to consist of (by broad concensus) Johnson, Hahn, Murphy, Minson (resting), Welsh and Aker, with one mid rotating through such as Gia, Griff or Cooney when Aker or Minson go into the middle. We now look like we need two Josh Hills - one on the wing and one forward.

As a forward he seems to have overtaken Hahn, Gia, Aker - in fact everyone except Johnson & a fit Murphy. In the midfield he is our best wingman, chases hard and with the ability to play outside & deliver well, is vital in a midfield sporting inside mids the likes of Cross, Ward, Boyd, and possibly spells from Hahn or Reid as the season wears on.

Just wondering - is he now in our top 10? Are there really that many guys ahead of him at the club at this stage of the season?

Weren't you getting stuck into him last week regarding his intensity?

[Sedat]

Weren't you getting stuck into him last week regarding his intensity?
I had him as out 2nd best yesterday and I was bemoaning his lack of intensity on a few occasions as well as applauding a few sensational efforts (sometimes a few seconds apart) - he's that type of player.

[Rocco Jones]

I had him as out 2nd best yesterday and I was bemoaning his lack of intensity on a few occasions as well as applauding a few sensational efforts (sometimes a few seconds apart) - he's that type of player.

I had him as our 3rd best but I agree with everything else. I was doing exactly the same yesterday, Hill is very much that type of player.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Let's not get to carried away just yet.

I gave him votes but mostly because there weren't too many other options.

Hill was on Kade Simpson when Simpson kicked a couple of goals that basically iced the game. Hill wasn't in the same postcode at the time.

[Mofra]

Weren't you getting stuck into him last week regarding his intensity?
I didn't even see the game last week, and don't recall talking about him last week at all.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Let's not get to carried away just yet.

I gave him votes but mostly because there weren't too many other options.

Hill was on Kade Simpson when Simpson kicked a couple of goals that basically iced the game. Hill wasn't in the same postcode at the time.

Agreed.

Hill was extremely unaccountable yesterday, as was most of the side. His few chase downs made it look a little better, but for the most part he was miles away from his opponent.

He was one of our better players but moreso because of how poor we were across the board, rather than Hill actually playing a good game of football.

Still - he manages to take a few grabs and commit to one percenters a game.

[LostDoggy]

The AFL?:p

[dogman]

For me, he has overtaken Eagleton, which is great, but unfortunetly he is still getting a game.:o

[AndrewP6]

I'm not ready to put him in our top ten. He needs to be more consistent in his efforts across four quarters. Has great anticipation, silky smooth, and great courage going up for a grab. But he needs to work harder. Do that, and he'll be a star. Only a kid too!

[boydogs]

I like the goalkicking wingman idea for Josh, in the mould of Embley, Goodes and Richardson. Very valuable, probably in the top 10 this season so far but a lot of our guns are not at their best e.g. Cross, Gilbee, Gia, Hahn, Griffen

[Happy Days]

Let's not get to carried away just yet.

I gave him votes but mostly because there weren't too many other options.

Hill was on Kade Simpson when Simpson kicked a couple of goals that basically iced the game. Hill wasn't in the same postcode at the time.


Agreed.

Hill was extremely unaccountable yesterday, as was most of the side. His few chase downs made it look a little better, but for the most part he was miles away from his opponent.

He was one of our better players but moreso because of how poor we were across the board, rather than Hill actually playing a good game of football.

Still - he manages to take a few grabs and commit to one percenters a game.

I'm inclined to agree with all this.

I too gave him votes, but he was unbelievabely unnaccountable.

Simpson was debatebly Carlton's best player yesterday, so, even though he did play well, he still got beaten.

[1eyedog]

I didn't even see the game last week, and don't recall talking about him last week at all.

Sorry, I'll remind you as you quote

'Tiller's 3 or 4 OOB on the full didn't look good. If we're after another tall backman, Everitt may be pushing him.
Welsh has to come in, we are better with him in the side. Hill lacks intensity for 4 quarters - although he seems to be a 4th quarter specialist who has still earned his place in the side.
Harbrow must be close as well'.

You'll find the post on page 3 under Dry Rot's ins and outs for round 4.

Don't know why you would consider Hill in our top 10 one week and be leveling him for a potential exclusion the week before by suggesting he is not intense enough and is lucky to hold his spot. Not having a go at you. Just wondering how you come to these conclusions. I personally think he has been terrific for us since round 1.

[ledge]

Hill has got better every game i think and is doing some of the hard stuff, if he was at Essendon or Collingwood they would be calling him the next big thing by now.

Because he is with us he hardly gets a mention anywhere near what he would with those clubs

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think Hill has all the keys to play like Michael Mclean.

the only thing is he needs to get a defensive game real quick as he had some really poor efforts against Simpson. I'm sure when Aker and Coons get back, Hill will have a lesser opponent which should help he along.

Happy to have him but for me is still only in the mix with Tiller, Everitt, Ward & co

[Mofra]

Sorry, I'll remind you as you quote

'Tiller's 3 or 4 OOB on the full didn't look good. If we're after another tall backman, Everitt may be pushing him.
Welsh has to come in, we are better with him in the side. Hill lacks intensity for 4 quarters - although he seems to be a 4th quarter specialist who has still earned his place in the side.
Harbrow must be close as well'.

You'll find the post on page 3 under Dry Rot's ins and outs for round 4.

Don't know why you would consider Hill in our top 10 one week and be leveling him for a potential exclusion the week before by suggesting he is not intense enough and is lucky to hold his spot. Not having a go at you. Just wondering how you come to these conclusions. I personally think he has been terrific for us since round 1.
Cheers for reminder. I would think saying that he's earned his place in the side would suggest I don't consider him a chance for being dropped. I do think he could show more intensity across the 4 quarters, but based on Sunday's effort no other player in the side is excluded from that criticism as well. He is one of the few players who can play outside & mark as a linkman, and based on our efforts since Fremantle anyone in the side who is a reliable finisher is a rarity.

I'm interested to hear who are the players people rate ahead of him thus far this year. I still don't think there are many (in terms of actual output, not reputation) that are ahead of him so far.

[boydogs]

Cheers for reminder. I would think saying that he's earned his place in the side would suggest I don't consider him a chance for being dropped. I do think he could show more intensity across the 4 quarters, but based on Sunday's effort no other player in the side is excluded from that criticism as well. He is one of the few players who can play outside & mark as a linkman, and based on our efforts since Fremantle anyone in the side who is a reliable finisher is a rarity.

I'm interested to hear who are the players people rate ahead of him thus far this year. I still don't think there are many (in terms of actual output, not reputation) that are ahead of him so far.

He hasn't received a vote in the Marmo award so far, though that will change today. For a list of players ahead of Hill on 2009 output, I would say the Marmo vote getter list below plus Hudson and Cross, minus Hahn and maybe a couple more

9 - Matthew Boyd
8 - Shaun Higgins
7 - Brian Lake
4 - Lindsay Gilbee
3 - Ryan Griffen
3 - Daniel Giansiracusa
2 - Ryan Hargrave
1 - Mitch Hahn
1 - Brad Johnson
1 - Jason Akermanis
1 - Dale Morris

[Mofra]

Fair call, but I wouldn't have Hahn in front of him (1 good game only), Hudson would definately be, I'm well off the Cross bandwagon as Cross is almost a liability in the side now that teams seemed to have worked out his disposal by foot is terrible.

Overall that's 12th at worst. That's if we don't mark Aker down for getting suspended.

[1eyedog]

He hasn't received a vote in the Marmo award so far, though that will change today. For a list of players ahead of Hill on 2009 output, I would say the Marmo vote getter list below plus Hudson and Cross, minus Hahn and maybe a couple more

9 - Matthew Boyd
8 - Shaun Higgins
7 - Brian Lake
4 - Lindsay Gilbee
3 - Ryan Griffen
3 - Daniel Giansiracusa
2 - Ryan Hargrave
1 - Mitch Hahn
1 - Brad Johnson
1 - Jason Akermanis
1 - Dale Morris

That's a good guide. As Mofra said I would have him above Hahn and maybe on par with Johnson.

[Mofra]

I would say as an interesting side note, the changing nature of the game is working in Josh's favour. Hard possession seems to be less important as comapred to even a couple of years ago, and good finishers/users of the ball are becoming more important.

Our better ball users are getting tagged as opposed to those who can win the hard ball. With Griffen and Gilbee being tagged for example, Hill needs to assert his influence on the game, and perhaps a Higgins or Gia need to try and break free from their opponents and play a little more "outside" to compensate.

[1eyedog]

I think Josh's rise has coincided with what you mention above. Certainly he flew under the radar late last year and again in the early rounds of this season. This enabled him some freedom as a link up and maybe afforded him some outside possessions. If he is closely minded I agree that he may struggle but with the return of Welsh and Murphy that should take some heat of him in the forward line as he will get the 3rd or 4th mid-sized backman (providing he plays forward of course). I also agree that he needs to add to his attack on the ball, but I'm hoping that will come with confidence.

[Mofra]

I also agree that he needs to add to his attack on the ball, but I'm hoping that will come with confidence.
I think size is an issue as much as confidence. Both should improve with time (and a few more pre-seasons)

[1eyedog]

I think size is an issue as much as confidence. Both should improve with time (and a few more pre-seasons)

He'll never be big but at 185cm he def needs to add some beef. IMO Josh runs on confidence and game momentum. His skills and pace and the ability to find space will always be his game. These will have more of an impact on his career than getting bigger (which he'll struggle to do).

[LostDoggy]

I think he is more suited to the wing ad every now and popping forward and kicking a goal

[Sleeve1970]

Hill reminds me of one of the Krackour boys from North Melbourne a couple of centuries ago. Runs hard, marks tall and amazing with the ball. Another player learning the game and will only get batter after he makes the mistakes so he can learn from them.

I remember a very young and hungry Jeff Farmer in the early days with Melbourne who played very similar style as well and was taken under the wing of the great Gary Lyon. I'm sure Brad , Aker and Murph are doing the same with Hill but he still needs to make some mistakes... He will learn and become a fantastic forward option.

[ledge]

Hill now impresses me with his chasing as well as his floating for a mark in the forward line.

Credit to Eade for letting him do that, nowadays a lot of coaches dont want players drifting in as it crowds the forward line but Hill is perfect for this job as he seems to be very adept at sneaking away from his opponent and being the third man in to take a grab.

I think he looks lazy at times but it also has its upshots as his opposition player thinks he is lazy,not interested and runs off him and thats when Hill takes over.

Hill Obviously is very light on his feet to as he tends to get tackles in and players dont even hear him coming.
I think we all want him to put on a couple more kilos but i wouldnt want too much on him, as it might be more a hindrance against his sneakiness and his abillity to float in.

[Ozza]

When Hill is near the ball - things happen. Its great to have a player like him in the side.

2 very important goals to snuff out a potential crows comeback - and possibly spared us all some nervy moments.

[Remi Moses]

Just like nearly all the aboriginal boys he seems to have more skill and composure than most. Harbrow is the same with a little more harder edge.

[always right]

Fair call, but I wouldn't have Hahn in front of him (1 good game only), Hudson would definately be, I'm well off the Cross bandwagon as Cross is almost a liability in the side now that teams seemed to have worked out his disposal by foot is terrible.

Overall that's 12th at worst. That's if we don't mark Aker down for getting suspended.

After Crossy's game yesterday are you still of the opinion he's a liability?

Back on Hill....I love him up forward. Now that Johnno's overhead marking is not the strength it once was, we need someone like Hill who can take a big grab.

[LostDoggy]

After Crossy's game yesterday are you still of the opinion he's a liability?


He was much better in the second half of the game. In the second quarter there was a piece of play which typified why he is being critisized lately. He was inside 50 running into an open goal and handballed to Murph who missed. If he is going to be scared of kicking the ball then he is a liability.

[boydogs]

He was much better in the second half of the game. In the second quarter there was a piece of play which typified why he is being critisized lately. He was inside 50 running into an open goal and handballed to Murph who missed. If he is going to be scared of kicking the ball then he is a liability.

I know what you are saying and I was thinking this when he went to give it off, but I don't think it was a hospital handpass, and would much rather Murphy from 40 than Cross from 45 - Scott West would have done the same thing

[Mofra]

After Crossy's game yesterday are you still of the opinion he's a liability?

Back on Hill....I love him up forward. Now that Johnno's overhead marking is not the strength it once was, we need someone like Hill who can take a big grab.
Cross is improving, but he did have a terrible patch to start the year off.

He needs to understand that leadership is more than just being the best trainer - you need to take responsibility, and that includes taking the space & taking a shot when it's your turn to. I'd rather him see him kick a behind than stop, prop and handball to someone in a similar spot, under as much pressure.

[bornadog]

Cross is improving, but he did have a terrible patch to start the year off.

He needs to understand that leadership is more than just being the best trainer - you need to take responsibility, and that includes taking the space & taking a shot when it's your turn to. I'd rather him see him kick a behind than stop, prop and handball to someone in a similar spot, under as much pressure.

Cross did it again on Sunday, running into an open goal, decided he wouldn't have a shot and handballed to Cooney (who missed). Really, he should have had a shot himself.

[strebla]

Back on Hill the little tap onto BJ was exellent needs a little bit ofmongrel but to say i like him would be an understatement.

[LostDoggy]

On who Josh Hill has overtaken, I was just thinking about his draft position (61!!!) and wondering who he has overtaken from his own draft. I would say the current top 6 from his draft (other than Hilly) would be (in draft order):

Gibbs (pick 1)
Selwood (7)
Urquhart (21)
Tippett (32)
Alwyn Davey (36)
Krakouer (39)

Andrejs Everitt and Jack Riewoldt are also from this draft but I don't think they've done enough as regular AFL players to warrant comparison yet...

Who would he be ahead of in this group? I would put Josh up with Selwood and Gibbs as the top 3 from that draft up to this point in time, ahead of Gibbs (with Selwood way out in front at the moment).

It's amazing how draft order seldom has anything to do with how good you end up being -- a lot of gems in rounds 2 and 3 of drafts and many, many duds go top 10.

[Mofra]

He sits comfortably with Davey & Krakour, I'd still have him behind the top 4 you mentioned. I'd probably slip Jack Riewoldt 5th behind behind Tippett though, nice set of hands and often cops the no 1 opposition defender which is a massive effort for a KPP so young.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'd have Hill third or fourth at the moment.

Tippet has shown a bit and was very good against us on the weekend, but arguably Hill has been more impressive and consistent.

Selwood is a long way in front, Gibbs is a clear second.

I'd have Hill on par with Tippet though.

Davey has been good but his disposal isn't great, particularly his kicking for goal.

Krakouer looks very impressive this season and if he can maintain his form for this year/next, then he's going to be right up there too.

[Go_Dogs]

I'd have Hill third or fourth at the moment.

Tippet has shown a bit and was very good against us on the weekend, but arguably Hill has been more impressive and consistent.

Selwood is a long way in front, Gibbs is a clear second.

I'd have Hill on par with Tippet though.

Davey has been good but his disposal isn't great, particularly his kicking for goal.

Krakouer looks very impressive this season and if he can maintain his form for this year/next, then he's going to be right up there too.

Not too sure about this. The 2006 draft is a fairly strong one, and there are a lot of good players who have come out of it. Hill has been a good contributor, and has stepped up again this year, but I'd be very happy with any of the below.

Gibbs
Leuenberger
Boak
Selwood
Riewoldt
Urquhart
Tippett
Davey
Krakouer
Westhoff

All these guys have played a lot of good games for their clubs. Frawley and a few others also look like good players for the future.

All in all though, for a player picked at 61, he's matched it with a lot of his more highly rated colleagues, at least to this stage of their young careers.

Interesting to see what happens over the next few years as a few more of the KP players from that draft grow into their bodies and hopefully overcome their injuries.