3 and 3: Finger on the panic button?

[The Adelaide Connection]

Just curious to gauge ow detrimental everyone thinks this start has been and where they now think we will finish.

Personally when I reflected on our worrying preseason form and our opening 5 or 6 games I was exceptionally nervous. Lots of travel, seemingly endless cases of less time to prepare than the opposition, and a few teams that I never feel comfortable playing (such as Kangaroos and St. Kilda). 3 and 3 seems like a reasonable deal.

I only saw the last quarter as I play soccer on a Sunday and whilst we were off our best we werent blown away. Hopefully we can start to grind out some results and get some of the confidence back and get some game time into the blokes who are coming back (such as Cooney and Murph), clearly underdone and pivotal to our structure.

We play the crows at a very good time, they are certainly struggling and having similar forwward issues to us. Hopefully we can start with that one.

How is everyone else feeling?

[Scorlibo]

The last quarter was our best, Riewoldt and Koschitzke both were taken off the ground and it wasn't really a good indication of our performance as a whole. Personally, I feel gutted. I knew that the first few weeks were going to be tough with the travel and Carlton and St Kilda but it's no excuse, if we were fair dinkum, we'd be winning these sorts of games.

Cooney is fundamental to the structure of our midfield, and his improvement will only better our chances of being finals contenders and of course Murphy is also key.

All in all I guess 3-3 isn't incredibly bad but it makes Adelaide a must-win game.

[Rocket Science]

Our record's almost incidental at this stage...the issue is the way we're playing, and the various deficiencies it highlights, some new-ish, some not so new.

The best spin anyone can put on our season at this stage is it's only May. That's not much to hang your hat on when you came into the season with top-four expectations.

[LostDoggy]

I'd obviously much prefer to be 6-0 but that's not realistic. I'm not overly concerned because I wasn't expecting a great start. I'm expecting us to hang around in the top 8 and then come home flying with 7 of our last 8 games at Ethiad (I think?).

[LostDoggy]

If we lose against Adelaide the panic button will definetly be in reach

[DOG GOD]

We've beaten freo, north and rich...3 teams that WONT make the 8. That says it all.

[LostDoggy]

Hi guys,

I'm now living in Darwin and haven't been able to watch as much of the doggies as I usually would. My Brother made the trip over from Tassie for the game today and he texted me to say that we look lost and without a game plan. Would that be a fairly accurate statement to make? I think it just shows that when you have some players injured and down slightly on form that you come back to the pack pretty quickly. Our drop in skill level is a real concern for mine. Oh well, just have to see what happens next week I guess?? I would have thought that competition for spots would make players even more determined to play well?

Form better improve before the game up here in Darwin.....

[LostDoggy]

really disappointing to be 3 and 3 back with the rest of pack. I believe that the players look flat after a great start. there is no extra running or sheparding and the forward line is not creating targets and is lacking structure.

We have to make some changes this week!!!

[Mantis]

Our lack of pace across the ground is disturbing, as is the inability to do the simple things well. We can't hit a target by foot or hand, even over the shortest distances allowable.

Some really worrying signs there, but the season as we know is long so there's plenty of time to turn the form around.

[GVGjr]

Our lack of pace across the ground is disturbing, as is the inability to do the simple things well. We can't hit a target by foot or hand, even over the shortest distances allowable.

Some really worrying signs there, but the season as we know is long so there's plenty of time to turn the form around.

I'll add decision making to that list. Some of the chip passes into the forward line defied logic and they certainly weren't to a player in a better position.

Typically Saints supporters don't rate our side and on tonight's performance we won't have won any of them over.

[LostDoggy]

I'll add decision making to that list. Some of the chip passes into the forward line defied logic and they certainly weren't to a player in a better position.

Typically Saints supporters don't rate our side and on tonight's performance we won't have won any of them over.

Or the handpasses where the player had one or two Saints players right on them...I lost count of how many stupid handpasses we made tonight.

[bulldogtragic]

We are not playing well at all. Irrespective of the numbers, we need to start showing some signs we showed last year. If we continue at this skill level, we will be lucky to make top 8.

[Go_Dogs]

Finger on the panic button? Not quite yet.

We have a lot of work to do though. The forward line really needs some help, as does our delivery forward of the centre. We don't seem to have anything that resembles a system or a structure down there, which can't be helping our decision making and disposal which has been woeful.

We really need to lift our intensity without the ball. The Saints recorded 76 tackles for the game. We ended up w/ 50, but for most stages of the game they had about double the amount of tackles as we did.

Over the past few years it has been demonstrated time and time again that we play our best footy when we are pressuring and tackling hard. Not sure if its a concentration thing, work ethic or fitness.

Lot to work on. Massive game against Adelaide this week.

[The Pie Man]

I'll add decision making to that list. Some of the chip passes into the forward line defied logic and they certainly weren't to a player in a better position.

Typically Saints supporters don't rate our side and on tonight's performance we won't have won any of them over.

Grant Thomas predictably being one of them - ended up listening to the 1st half on SEN on Nicholson St while I waited for the RACV to come to my rescue (#$% car) and once fixed on half time I aborted my planned trip to the game. Haven't listened to him that much, but after an hour it's very clear he doesn't rate us at all - which I've read elsewhere on this forum as well. He doesn't hide it at all

[LostDoggy]

Our lack of pace across the ground is disturbing, as is the inability to do the simple things well. We can't hit a target by foot or hand, even over the shortest distances allowable.

Some really worrying signs there, but the season as we know is long so there's plenty of time to turn the form around.

Er. Brian (Brain) Lake should be able to kick straight from 20 metres straight in front. He's shown he could he would be a pretty handy mark up forward, but then there's a huge gaping hole in the backline.

[Rocket Science]

Or the handpasses where the player had one or two Saints players right on them...I lost count of how many stupid handpasses we made tonight.

Absolutely, if there was a stat for slow, looping handballs directed one metre behind an outnumbered, flat footed teammate, we'd be leading it.

[Mantis]

Er. Brian (Brain) Lake should be able to kick straight from 20 metres straight in front. He's shown he could he would be a pretty handy mark up forward, but then there's a huge gaping hole in the backline.

A fit Tom Williams helps to fill that. Really it's an indictment on Lake that he isn't first picked on the oppositions best tall forward so perhaps it's time to make the move.

[The Pie Man]

Finger on the panic button? Not quite yet.

We have a lot of work to do though. The forward line really needs some help, as does our delivery forward of the centre. We don't seem to have anything that resembles a system or a structure down there, which can't be helping our decision making and disposal which has been woeful.

We really need to lift our intensity without the ball. The Saints recorded 76 tackles for the game. We ended up w/ 50, but for most stages of the game they had about double the amount of tackles as we did.

Over the past few years it has been demonstrated time and time again that we play our best footy when we are pressuring and tackling hard. Not sure if its a concentration thing, work ethic or fitness.

Lot to work on. Massive game against Adelaide this week.

I agree on all of the above - lose to Adelaide and the pressure will be on vs Melbourne, just like it was on Richmond when they played them, and we all know how that panned out. I like our chances next week though, the size of AAMI stadium could be a relief, we generally play ok there.

[The Pie Man]

Absolutely, if there was a stat for slow, looping handballs directed one metre behind an outnumbered, flat footed teammate, we'd be leading it.

Griffen falling over in the centre square last quarter and handballing behind a running Akermanis testament to this very frustrating aspect of our play ATM

[Go_Dogs]

I agree on all of the above - lose to Adelaide and the pressure will be on vs Melbourne, just like it was on Richmond when they played them, and we all know how that panned out. I like our chances next week though, the size of AAMI stadium could be a relief, we generally play ok there.

The last time we beat Adelaide there was 2001. Since Craig has been coaching we have scored an average of just under 10 goals a game at AAMI. Their zone is going to be a big test, even in the more open spaces.

[Scorlibo]

I don't know about anyone else, but I got very, very sick of Heggars and his sh*t decisions to bang it long every time he got the ball. The way to beat the zone is with run and carry, not bombing every time an opponent comes within 5 metres.

If I were Rocket Eade I'd be going through a whole lot of handball drills during the week, punishing the boys everytime they miss a handball or don't run on and shepheard, because that is where our game fell down today.

[Mantis]

Skill efficiency:

Boyd - 23 touches - 48% efficiency
Cooney - 22 - 55%
Addison - 13 - 58%
Giansiracusa - 18 - 50%
Murphy - 10 - 50%

Just not good enough....

[The Pie Man]

The last time we beat Adelaide there was 2001. Since Craig has been coaching we have scored an average of just under 10 goals a game at AAMI. Their zone is going to be a big test, even in the more open spaces.

Yes it will - and those stats don't lie. We got very close R22 last year in the wet and we weren't in great form at that stage. We were ok there in 06 as well without getting the win. Adelaide is a very defensive team it's no surprise we're averaging those kinds of scores against them.

I still remember James Cook chasing and securing a HTB free 60 out and slotting it in 97 in Adelaide.

[comrade]

Skill efficiency:

Boyd - 23 touches - 48% efficiency
Cooney - 22 - 55%
Addison - 13 - 58%
Giansiracusa - 18 - 50%
Murphy - 10 - 50%

Just not good enough....

It's scary Addison has the best efficiency of those 5.

[bulldogtragic]

Skill efficiency:

Boyd - 23 touches - 48% efficiency
Cooney - 22 - 55%
Addison - 13 - 58%
Giansiracusa - 18 - 50%
Murphy - 10 - 50%

Just not good enough....
Two of those have to be dropped at least. We should not tolerate those figures, and some bigger names have to be dropped. Obviously you can't drop them all, but a clear message needs to be sent about these figures.

How did we go from most skillful side in 2008 to near worst in 2009. Boggles the mind.

[Scorlibo]

Two of those have to be dropped at least. We should not tolerate those figures, and some bigger names have to be dropped. Obviously you can't drop them all, but a clear message needs to be sent about these figures.

How did we go from most skillful side in 2008 to near worst in 2009. Boggles the mind.

Well Addison I would not have too much complaint with, but Boyd was one of our best, we always look better when Murphy goes near the pill and Cooney makes our midfield work so much better so I can't see 2 of them being dropped unless Gia is which is also unlikely.

[G-Mo77]

I was called "Chicken Little" a couple of weeks ago when we lost to West Coast, I wonder what the name callers are thinking now! :rolleyes:

Well there were a lot of bad signs in that game against the Eagles and the signs were woeful in the game tonight. I watched the game between Hawthorn and Carlton late last night and wondered if our boys could raise their intensity to another level. I really hope they can but in all honesty I can't see it coming. Something has to drasticly change or will just become 1st Round Finals fodder.

If we want to just sit around the middle of the pack then there is no need to press the panic button.....

[Rocket Science]

Skill efficiency:

Boyd - 23 touches - 48% efficiency
Cooney - 22 - 55%
Addison - 13 - 58%
Giansiracusa - 18 - 50%
Murphy - 10 - 50%

Just not good enough....

They're precisely the sort of numbers Callan Ward's averaged over the first five rounds this season...and he's now running around for Williamstown.

[Mantis]

They're precisely the sort of numbers Callan Ward's averaged over the first five rounds this season...and he's now running around for Williamstown.

Might be joined by a few of them next week. Perhaps he might just pass by them as he comes in and they drop out.

[AndrewP6]

.

Typically Saints supporters don't rate our side and on tonight's performance we won't have won any of them over.

Until today, they hadn't beaten us in two years...I don't give two hoots what Saints supporters think...I'm happy to go toe-to-toe with them on thoughts of the opposition.

[AndrewP6]

Whilst I'm NEVER happy after a loss, I actually felt this wasn't as bad as I had thought it could be. I honestly thought a 4 goal deficit wouldn't be too bad. I hadn't seen much of the infamous Saints defensive pressure, and whilst we didn't handle it especially well, I thought there are ways to beat it. And it's helped by the constant arm grabbing and jumper holding.

That said, there are worrying signs. Our senior group is just not getting the job done. Gia, Hahn, Gilbee, Eagleton and Co. should be leading from the front. They're ordinary at best. And the group in their early 20s need to lift. Cooney and Murph are both coming off injury. I feel they'll come good. Trouble is, we're more than a quarter of the way through '09. If we don't beat the Crows, I'll be testing the panic button... at this point, if we make top 8 I'll be relieved.

[Sedat]

The panic button is not so much about losing 3 games in a row, it is more to do with our current inability to be able to counter the rolling zone game plan. So far only Carlton hasn't put a heavy zone on and whilst we won easily against Freo and Richmond, it was their skill errors that handed the ball to us on a platter ebough times to win the game. North, who are travelling as poorly as anyone, gave us a big fright utilising the zone, and both West Coast and the Saints beat us quite easily using heavy amounts of midfield zoning. And what do you reckon Neil Craig and the Crows will be serving up next week?

If we cannot find an answer to combating this tactic, we are simply not going to feature at the pointy end of the season.

Tonight's game in isolation is not the end of the world. St Kilda are white hot and will not lose more than 3 games during the H&A season - they are a monty to finish top 2. We let them sneak away with 3 goals in the last 3 minutes just before half time which broke the game open. Our work in tight matched the Saints, but our forward thrusts were about as dangerous as wet lettuce - by contrast St Kilda always looked a threat when they were able to break in space. I thought they ran harder to receive the uncontested ball than we did as well.

[bulldogtragic]

The panic button is not so much about losing 3 games in a row, it is more to do with our current inability to be able to counter the rolling zone game plan. So far only Carlton hasn't put a heavy zone on and whilst we won easily against Freo and Richmond, it was their skill errors that handed the ball to us on a platter ebough times to win the game. North, who are travelling as poorly as anyone, gave us a big fright utilising the zone, and both West Coast and the Saints beat us quite easily using heavy amounts of midfield zoning. And what do you reckon Neil Craig and the Crows will be serving up next week?

If we cannot find an answer to combating this tactic, we are simply not going to feature at the pointy end of the season.
Where does this fit in with Rodney's contract neg's...

[Sedat]

Where does this fit in with Rodney's contract neg's...
Don't know the answer to that. I'm sure he and his match commitee are working their arses off to try and come up with a plan to counter the zone. In 2-3 years, we've gone from an outside running midfield team with no presence inside to a team that can match the best of them inside at the stoppages but do not break often enough to privide link play between the arcs. The 2 styles shouldn't be mutually exclusive but it seems to be the case for us - our run and carry has been woefully down on previous years, primarily as a resuly of, a) our lack of leg speed, and b) our midfield group not working hard enough to provide options on the counter. Factor that with a static forward line that has effectively been without 3 of the top half-dozen goal kickers from 2008 (Murphy, Welsh and Cooney) and it is leaving us deficient in quite a few areas.

I am confident that we will be a much better team in the second half of the season but we really need to find an answer to the midfield zone game plan if we are to be thereabouts in 2009.

[bornadog]

A fit Tom Williams helps to fill that. Really it's an indictment on Lake that he isn't first picked on the oppositions best tall forward so perhaps it's time to make the move.

Lets face it, Morris is punching out of his weight division. Morris tried hard but, Riewoldt looked to big and strong for him. In order for Lake to be rated as one of the best fullbacks in the AFL, he needs to take the best forwards each week.

[AndrewP6]

Lets face it, Morris is punching out of his weight division. Morris tried hard but, Riewoldt looked to big and strong for him. In order for Lake to be rated as one of the best fullbacks in the AFL, he needs to take the best forwards each week.

Yep, at times it looked ridiculous...

[Sedat]

Lets face it, Morris is punching out of his weight division. Morris tried hard but, Riewoldt looked to big and strong for him. In order for Lake to be rated as one of the best fullbacks in the AFL, he needs to take the best forwards each week.
Had a good look at Reiwoldt and he works his arse off making multiple leads, ducking back after the first contest, running to provide an option further upfield - he's basically mobile almost 100% of the time. I wish our forwards had the same work ethic.

[AndrewP6]

Had a good look at Reiwoldt and he works his arse off making multiple leads, ducking back after the first contest, running to provide an option further upfield - he's basically mobile almost 100% of the time. I wish our forwards had the same work ethic.

If I was a Saints supporter I'd be saying "about bloody time"...

[angelopetraglia]

The panic button is not so much about losing 3 games in a row, it is more to do with our current inability to be able to counter the rolling zone game plan.

Absolutely agree.

This was also our undoing in the final against Hawthorn last year and the rolling zone was the obvious trend going into 2009. Sure the coaching team thought about this at length ... we appear to have no answers.

However a serious issue;

- This week we lose to a very good rolling zone. A team who wants to absolutely close you down and give you zero space. We matched them in close, win the clearances and hard ball gets yet get smashed. Like the final against the Hawks last year, they were just waiting for us to give it back to them on a platter.

- Last week we lose to side who want a shoot out ... and let them kick more than 20 goals (a team who reminded me of the Dogs circa 2006). Again we won the clearances and hard ball gets but were out run by a team who used the ball far better than what we did when it was there turn with the pill.

The common link is our skills at the moment. Once they were so very good and of late they have been terrible. We have rectified our deficiencies of 2006-2007 (got stronger, winning the hard ball) but somehow have lost our run, carry and silky skills.

[Remi Moses]

Skill efficiency:

Boyd - 23 touches - 48% efficiency
Cooney - 22 - 55%
Addison - 13 - 58%
Giansiracusa - 18 - 50%
Murphy - 10 - 50%

Just not good enough....

That about says it all . Bloody totally unacceptable. Figures suited to PARK FOOTBALLERS:mad::mad::mad:

[Dry Rot]

The common link is our skills at the moment. Once they were so very good and of late they have been terrible. We have rectified our deficiencies of 2006-2007 (got stronger, winning the hard ball) but somehow have lost our run, carry and silky skills.

Perhaps the few of us that raised this pre-season were right?

[LostDoggy]

... I thought they ran harder to receive the uncontested ball than we did as well.

This is one aspect that drove me nuts yesterday and is certainly something that can be fixed immediately.

There was also a passage of play later in the game that I found disbturbing. It involved one of our younger players (Picken or Addison I think?) that was going for a rolling ball with 3 Saints players hot on his tail. All our players just stood stock still watching him, not one player moved to help him out. It was quite incredible.

I still thought the effort of the team appeared better than the previous two weeks with lots of room for improvement. I'm not panicking but they'd all want to pull their fingers out. Structural deficiencies aside, this team can certainly lift a notch or two.