When Do we Start Criticizing the Football Department

[bornadog]

Posters on WOOF have been very quiet on any criticism of the football department and Rodney Eade. I don't mean slagging off our football department. I mean a meaningful discussion on the overall coaching of the team and the preparation for games.

Are we happy with the way we are going in the coaching of the team? Are we happy with the moves during the game, or the game plan? Or is it just an issue with the cattle we have on the ground and there are too many either out of form, coming back from injury or just not good enough to hold their spots?

[alwaysadog]

Posters on WOOF have been very quiet on any criticism of the football department and Rodney Eade. I don't mean slagging off our football department. I mean a meaningful discussion on the overall coaching of the team and the preparation for games.

Are we happy with the way we are going in the coaching of the team? Are we happy with the moves during the game, or the game plan? Or is it just an issue with the cattle we have on the ground and there are too many either out of form, coming back from injury or just not good enough to hold their spots?

My area of concern is the continued playing of either unfit or underprepared top line players. I have to assume that the coaching panel see no benefit from players of that ilk gaining form/fitness at Willy.

When they get some form back the tide will turn.

[bornadog]

Posters on WOOF have been very quiet on any criticism of the football department and Rodney Eade. I don't mean slagging off our football department. I mean a meaningful discussion on the overall coaching of the team and the preparation for games.

Are we happy with the way we are going in the coaching of the team? Are we happy with the moves during the game, or the game plan? Or is it just an issue with the cattle we have on the ground and there are too many either out of form, coming back from injury or just not good enough to hold their spots?

I will kick things off:

Eade has the following issues with the players.

Players out of form:

Hahn,
Gia,
Eagleton
Addison
Johnson
Gilbee
Addison

Players recovering from Injury

Cooney
Murphy

Players still learning

Harbrow
Hill
Higgins
Picken
Williams
Tiller

If we compared this to say the top teams, Saints, Geelong, they would probably only have one or two in each category.

On top of this we are not able to play the rolling zone and we are getting pressured in the back line to make quick decisions and we are suffering by turning the ball over.

I don't have a solution but these are facts and I feel unless something is done quickly, we are in danger of not playing finals this year.

[bornadog]

My area of concern is the continued playing of either unfit or underprepared top line players. I have to assume that the coaching panel see no benefit from players of that ilk gaining form/fitness at Willy.

When they get some form back the tide will turn.

Well that is a coaching issue.

[azabob]

I will kick things off:

Eade has the following issues with the players.

Players out of form:

Hahn,
Gia,
Eagleton
Addison
Johnson
Gilbee
Addison

Players recovering from Injury

Cooney
Murphy

Players still learning

Harbrow
Hill
Higgins
Picken
Williams
Tiller

If we compared this to say the top teams, Saints, Geelong, they would probably only have one or two in each category.

On top of this we are not able to play the rolling zone and we are getting pressured in the back line to make quick decisions and we are suffering by turning the ball over.

I don't have a solution but these are facts and I feel unless something is done quickly, we are in danger of not playing finals this year.

I would be inclined to put Addison in the still learning, along with Ward.

[bornadog]

I would be inclined to put Addison in the still learning, along with Ward.

agree

[Sedat]

Good summary, bornadog.

I'd put Cross and Minson in the 'out of form' group as well. Minson went some way to getting back into form yesterday but Cross has certainly regressed markedly in 09 compared to his previous 4 seasons of sustained excellence.

We have desperately missed the lead-up work of Murphy and the explosive clearance work of Cooney - these two will be crucial components of our structure for the remainder of the season. The addition of a fully fit Welsh up forward will give us some added fire power in the forward 50 as well.

You'd be hard pressed to find one St Kilda player in the 'out of form' bracket - Riewoldt was probably the one player who was not performing to (lofty) expectations but his last 3 weeks have been exceptional. By contrast we have almost double figures in that list, and several of those players are in the leadership group - no wonder we are mid-table.

[Rocket Science]

Not to absolve the match committee of responsibility, but cattle's a big part of it for mine. We simply have too many exploitable weak links in key areas of the ground.

That doesn't mean we're dead in the water and we're clearly more capable than we're demonstrating now, but as a result to be competitive we need everyone contributing and doing their job, pretty much every week...It's called consistency. The Saints are reaping the rewards of this approach as we speak.

That said, the blokes we do have aren't performing up to snuff. How much of that is attributable to failings of the football department, the leadership group, and individual players themselves is both interesting and difficult to ponder.

[ledge]

Last 2 weeks have been puzzling to me with the way Eade has gone with the backline, seems Morris is getting put on blokes he has no hope of even punching the ball away from.

At one stage the only tall in our backline was Hargave.

[bornadog]

Last 2 weeks have been puzzling to me with the way Eade has gone with the backline, seems Morris is getting put on blokes he has no hope of even punching the ball away from.

At one stage the only tall in our backline was Hargave.

Morris and Hargrave are the same size ie 190cm, hardly talls in this day and age.

[The Coon Dog]

Last 2 weeks have been puzzling to me with the way Eade has gone with the backline, seems Morris is getting put on blokes he has no hope of even punching the ball away from.
.

His track record is pretty good on Fevola & Reiwoldt, so not so puzzling for me.

[Mantis]

As with a few other's I have been disappointed in the handling of the re-introduction of previously injured players. I would have thought until Murf could play a role across half forward he would be of no real value to the team so really shouldn't have played against carlton when he lined up at HB. I rate him in our top 3 most important players when he is up and going, but he is really struggling at the moment.

I think up until now the footy department seem to held the faith with the senior players who have had a slow start to the season, but at some point you would think this faith will run out. Tough calls need to be made so hopefully we will see some changes occur.

One thing that needs to be said in defence of the coaching staff is that they have no control over the number of simple errors our players have made over the past 3 weeks. Our handballing in particular has been terrible. I and others made mention of how crisp and clean our handballing was against Freo in rd 1, we used handball as a way to work the ball up field and we looked terrific. How things have changed.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I and others made mention of how crisp and clean our handballing was against Freo in rd 1, we used handball as a way to work the ball up field and we looked terrific. How things have changed.

Agree, and if you look back on that game, we've also lost our composure when we've got the football in our hands. That day, and even in the next couple of games, we didn't give up the ball so easily. We were prepared to chip the ball around until we could successfully switch it or center it. This sometimes took a little bit of doing, but it eventually opened the play right up. Why, as the weeks have progressed, have we gone wella way from this? The players pick the ball up now and their first decision is to handball it off - often putting their team mate under immense pressure. We don't appear to have any composure or confidence with the ball anymore. How many times have we had to handball or kick the ball under a heap of pressure, and to nobody in particular - a huge pack?

Lake's got to stop playing on third/foruth string forwards too. He's been beaten by Cloke and Gwilt with ease. All they have to do is pick up 10-15 possessions and kick 1-2 goals and they've more than done their job. Lake's caught in two - he's not playing accountable, so his man simply leads up outside the 50m arch to take uncontested marks. Lake stands in no man's land, and they kick it over his head to Riewoldt/Fevola or other targets.

Lake has to play deep and he has to play on the gorilla forwards. The idea of exposing a weaker forward by allowing Lake to zone off them and take uncontested marks from long bombs is good in theory - but after the first two/three weeks, sides have woken up to it. They're not going to allow Lake to stand there and pick off their kicks. They're now making him accountable - if he doesn't follow his man, which he doesn't - they go through them. Lake then is in a dilemma, does he follow them up the ground/man the mark or does he stay back? He's had trouble balancing the two and as a result has been somewhere in the middle. Meanwhile, Riewoldt and alike have found too much space and players like Betts have swooped on any loose balls.

[ledge]

His track record is pretty good on Fevola & Reiwoldt, so not so puzzling for me.

I agree but i think it was quite obvious early on Riewoldt was in for a good day, just how long do you leave a player on someone before you change them?

[The Coon Dog]

I agree but i think it was quite obvious early on Riewoldt was in for a good day, just how long do you leave a player on someone before you change them?

That's different to your earlier post. I guess it's a judgement call.

[Axe Man]

Our handballing in particular has been terrible. I and others made mention of how crisp and clean our handballing was against Freo in rd 1, we used handball as a way to work the ball up field and we looked terrific. How things have changed.

Our handball is absolutely the thing that stood out to me at the game yesterday. I know there are plenty of aspects to our game at the moment which are not up to scratch and are being pointed out at length by supporters, but our hand skills were shocking yesterday. Seriously I'm a hack footballer but I would rarely miss a target by hand, it's the simplest skill in the game. I lost count of the number of times handballs were directed at teammates feet or behind them as they ran past. We desperately need to improve our handskills under pressure or we stand no chance of penetrating a rolling zone.

[bornadog]

One thing that needs to be said in defence of the coaching staff is that they have no control over the number of simple errors our players have made over the past 3 weeks. Our handballing in particular has been terrible. I and others made mention of how crisp and clean our handballing was against Freo in rd 1, we used handball as a way to work the ball up field and we looked terrific. How things have changed.

I see this differently, you have to look at reasons for the hand balling errors.

A team like the Saints who play the rolling zone so well put pressure on players by having numbers around the player with the ball. Geelong do this very well. Once you are surrounded, your handball and decision making is effected and your excution is not as crisp. The Saints roll forward and next thing our back line is flooded and we can't get the ball out of there resulting in some clangers. However, there was some evidence a few times when we kicked the ball very very long and found a spare player running in the forward fifty with most of the opposition forward of the centre square.

The coaching team needs to look at how we can pierce the zones and that may mean we have to change our style of play.

[Dry Rot]

Where does the buck stop with no forward structure, poor skills, managing injured players etc?

If this continues, we'll lose most of the next 10 games.

[Jasper]

In a way I'm glad we haven't committed to Eade yet because we need to evaluate by mid to late season if he is the best person to take the club into the next 3 years. Personally I hope we do stick with him but he if he can't get us into the top 5 or 6 this year we would need to have a rethink.

[lemmon]

Just with the out of form players, its probably worth throwing Hudson into that basket.

[LostDoggy]

We start criticizing when we can't make the finals. I don't believe it will happen.
I also don't believe this BS about we only beaten 3 bottom clubs. North had a full list at the time since 3 prime movers are missing and Freo in Perth in round 1 is no push over.
At the same time last year we were flying just as much as St.Kilda are this year.

[LostDoggy]

Where does the buck stop with no forward structure, poor skills, managing injured players etc?

If this continues, we'll lose most of the next 10 games.

Sorry David but thats a major over reaction.
Our forward line is was fine until a few weeks back. We haven't had a really good key forward for years but its rarely why we lose.
Poor skills? We have some top players out of form or with no/little pre-seasons, hard to say their skills are poor when they don't get ball.
Nothing we've heard tells us we have managed our injuries poorly.

[AndrewP6]

Sorry David but that a major over reaction.
Our forward line is was fine until a few weeks back. We haven't had a really good key forward for years but its rarely why we lose.
Poor skills? We have some top players out of form or with no/little pre-seasons, hard to say their skills are poor when they don't get ball.
Nothing we've heard tells us we have managed our injuries poorly.

Well said...

[BulldogBelle]

You could argue that our two most important players effectively player their 'first' games for the season this week in Cooney + Murphy

Cooney was getting better as the game progressed...he was starting to hit his straps in Q3 and Q4

I'm sure that at least one or possibly two senior players will be dropped this week, sending a message to the rest of the group

[bornadog]

You could argue that our two most important players effectively player their 'first' games for the season this week in Cooney + Murphy

Cooney was getting better as the game progressed...he was starting to hit his straps in Q3 and Q4

I'm sure that at least one or possibly two senior players will be dropped this week, sending a message to the rest of the group

22 possessions, won't be long and he will start to be really dangerous.

[Rocket Science]

I think Ern's been a little quick to dismiss the 'calibre of the opposition' factor.

You can only beat the opponent you're given, but full list or not North have major issues and look to have embarked upon their least competitive season for a some time, Fremantle are an unmitigated rabble with a mortgage on a bottom four spot, while Richmond's situation barely requires comment. All three are looking crook enough that they could be sporting new coaches by this time next year.

Was our forward line really "fine", or was it and the broader team simply able to get away with things you can't away with against legitimate opposition?

I'm not ready to chuck the season yet, and there are some explainable factors feeding into our ordinary recent form, but we're suddenly looking pretty bloody dysfunctional for a team that's supposed to have realistic designs on a top-four spot, and I'm concerned about the gap between our best and our worst.

[Dry Rot]

Sorry David but thats a major over reaction.
Our forward line is was fine until a few weeks back. We haven't had a really good key forward for years but its rarely why we lose.
Poor skills? We have some top players out of form or with no/little pre-seasons, hard to say their skills are poor when they don't get ball.
Nothing we've heard tells us we have managed our injuries poorly.

Well ES, before the season started I thought we'd have trouble with zones and in the pre-season a handful of us here were concerned about our skills.

Perhaps we're wrong (I hope so) but IMO we haven't really played well this year and the whole team seems out of sorts on all sorts of levels.

I suppose the questions are why and how we can rectify it. I hope it doesn't turn out that other coaches have figured us out and we simply can't handle these new zones well applied.

[Dry Rot]

I think Ern's been a little quick to dismiss the 'calibre of the opposition' factor.

You can only beat the opponent you're given, but full list or not North have major issues and look to have embarked upon their least competitive season for a some time, Fremantle are an unmitigated rabble with a mortgage on a bottom four spot, while Richmond's situation barely requires comment. They're looking crook enough that all three could be sporting new coaches by this time next year.

Was out forward line really "fine", or was it and the broader team simply able to get away with things you can't away with against legitimate opposition?

I'm not ready to chuck the season yet, and there are some explainable factors feeding into our ordinary recent form, but we're suddenly looking pretty bloody dysfunctional for a team that's supposed to have realistic designs on a top-four spot, and I'm concerned about the gap between our best and our worst.

IIRC even the Tigers gave us a hard time for a quarter with a zone. And the Freo game might have got interesting if they could have hit a target.

[Rocket Science]

Indeed. It's ironic that Freo basically slit their own throats against us by racking up what I think (IIRC) was a league record in a game for goals conceded by turnovers (16)...before we ourselves topped the league in rounds 4 and 5 combined for the very same thing (28).

[LostDoggy]

Well ES, before the season started I thought we'd have trouble with zones and in the pre-season a handful of us here were concerned about our skills.

Not sure where this concern on our skills came from, the skills were the least of our worries. If you are talking about the isolated last 3 week block than maybe but if there was a strength last year than our skills was one.


Perhaps we're wrong (I hope so) but IMO we haven't really played well this year and the whole team seems out of sorts on all sorts of levels.

I suppose the questions are why and how we can rectify it. I hope it doesn't turn out that other coaches have figured us out and we simply can't handle these new zones well applied.
I don't buy this zones arguement either, when our top players can't find the ball it doesn't matter what zones the opposition employ cos they have the ball.

[LostDoggy]

You can only beat the opponent you're given, but full list or not North have major issues and look to have embarked upon their least competitive season for a some time,
We played North in round 2 prior Chicken gate and prior Harvey, Hale and Wells injury/problems without Murphy and with at Cooney a reduced capacity. They finished 4th last year and we hadn't beaten them for years.


Fremantle are an unmitigated rabble with a mortgage on a bottom four spot,
Yet they beat WC at home since. It was round 1 anyway, who knew if they were still a rabble or not.

[Rocket Science]

We played North in round 2 prior Chicken gate and prior Harvey, Hale and Wells injury/problems without Murphy and with at Cooney a reduced capacity. They finished 4th last year and we hadn't beaten them for years.

Sure, all valid points. North are our biggest scalp...They've also won 2 of 6 and are currently sitting bottom-four, immediately above the other two mobs we've knocked over.


Yet they beat WC at home since. It was round 1 anyway, who knew if they were still a rabble or not.

The record suggests there's not a lot between WC and Freo in 2009, and you'd suspect the ladder will eventually bear that out.

Point taken re: the inherent mysteries of a round one encounter, but whether we knew in advance or not the predictable fact remains they're a pretty sad facsimile of a football team right now. Freo and Richmond are in such strife this season that wins against them should be worth two points not four.

A win's a win, but I think if we're fair dinkum we need to judge ourselves by how we perform against teams we consider roughly equal to us.

[GVGjr]

We start criticizing when we can't make the finals. I don't believe it will happen.
I also don't believe this BS about we only beaten 3 bottom clubs. North had a full list at the time since 3 prime movers are missing and Freo in Perth in round 1 is no push over.
At the same time last year we were flying just as much as St.Kilda are this year.

Is making the finals really good enough? We finished in the top 4 last year and I hope we haven't lowered the bar to accept 8th or 7th as being a good enough result.

We should know in about 4 weeks if a spot in the top 4 or 5 is still a realistic chance.

[Mantis]

We should know in about 4 weeks if a spot in the top 4 or 5 is still a realistic chance.

I think if we can get to the break in reasonable fashion (more wins than losses) I think we can make a real run for it in the 2nd part of the season. We play 8 of our last 9 at ES which gives us some advantage and an opportunity to string some games together and hit the finals in some good touch (unlike last year)

I would think that the 3 interstate games over the next 6 or 7 weeks against Adel, Syd & Port will be pretty strong indicators to where we are at. We probably need to win atleast 2 of these to allow us the opoortunity to stay in touch with the top 4 or 5 teams.

[LostDoggy]

Is making the finals really good enough?
No but the season isn't over if we make the finals. It would only be a failed season if we didn't win 2 finals. I don't see a reason why we couldn't turn it around and hit form at the right time.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe we're just having our 2008 form slump arse-about this time. We'll peak by going into the finals with 7 or 8 straight.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe we're just having our 2008 form slump arse-about this time. We'll peak by going into the finals with 7 or 8 straight.

I'd love to believe that.

We could also finish top 4 and go out in straight sets and that would be just as much a failure as finishing out of the finals

Our season depends on if we play finals and how well we do in them.

[The Coon Dog]

I'd love to believe that.

We could also finish top 4 and go out in straight sets and that would be just as much a failure as finishing out of the finals

Our season depends on if we play finals and how well we do in them.

Well said ES.

[Sleeve1970]

How about bring Scott Welsh back for another hard nut proven player in the forward line.... we just may kick some goals...

[Sleeve1970]

Well said ES. History of the dogs 101 guys... been a fan a long long time now and when the dogs start like this and start playing with there head down like they are, a-la the rhodes era, they loose all the skills and the season will be gone. It will take alot to turn this around, I cant see them winning a game for another 3 weeks or so. They have no structure at the moment playing wide, no judgement and lost the bite and passion of the west for a short time.

They may limp into the finals but will only be a bit player.... sorry guys I'll call it now seen it too many times in the past... The season is gone, that final game in September is just a pipe dream at the moment.

I hope they turn it around but just cant see it happening.

[bornadog]

History of the dogs 101 guys... been a fan a long long time now and when the dogs start like this and start playing with there head down like they are, a-la the rhodes era, they loose all the skills and the season will be gone. It will take alot to turn this around, I cant see them winning a game for another 3 weeks or so. They have no structure at the moment playing wide, no judgement and lost the bite and passion of the west for a short time.

They may limp into the finals but will only be a bit player.... sorry guys I'll call it now seen it too many times in the past... The season is gone, that final game in September is just a pipe dream at the moment.

I hope they turn it around but just cant see it happening.

Sounds like you have dropped your head:confused: The season has just started and lots of time for players to get some form and improve.

[bornadog]

I'd love to believe that.

We could also finish top 4 and go out in straight sets and that would be just as much a failure as finishing out of the finals

Our season depends on if we play finals and how well we do in them.

Top four is not a total failure, however, at the start of the season, we would have thought a GF berth is minimum.

[1eyedog]

I think if we can get to the break in reasonable fashion (more wins than losses) I think we can make a real run for it in the 2nd part of the season. We play 8 of our last 9 at ES which gives us some advantage and an opportunity to string some games together and hit the finals in some good touch (unlike last year)

I would think that the 3 interstate games over the next 6 or 7 weeks against Adel, Syd & Port will be pretty strong indicators to where we are at. We probably need to win atleast 2 of these to allow us the opoortunity to stay in touch with the top 4 or 5 teams.

Not sure about this one. The confined spaces at Docklands seems to favour teams who know how to implement well organised zones. We have thus far struggled against this so far this season. All clubs play at Docklands a fair bit now so there's no real advantage there IMO. We are 50/50 to win most games there against all but perhaps Freo and the Eagles.

I agree that the interstate games against Port, Sydney, Adelaide and Brisbane will be a good indicator for where we are at come finals time. If we win 3 of the 4 games against the interstate teams mentioned above we have a show at 3 or 4 on the ladder.

[Mantis]

Not sure about this one. The confined spaces at Docklands seems to favour teams who know how to implement well organised zones. We have thus far struggled against this so far this season. All clubs play at Docklands a fair bit now so there's no real advantage there IMO. We are 50/50 to win most games there against all but perhaps Freo and the Eagles.

I agree that the interstate games against Port, Sydney, Adelaide and Brisbane will be a good indicator for where we are at come finals time. If we win 3 of the 4 games against the interstate teams mentioned above we have a show at 3 or 4 on the ladder.

You have raised some good points there.

What I will say is that if we get our skills back to our normal levels, continue to win the contested ball count and see improvement in our out of form/ underdone players we should be able to win more than half of our games at ES.

I agree we have struggled against the zone, but this hasn't been help by our inability to keep possession of the ball under little or no pressure which is criminal.

Another thing, at the start of the year it was thought that the competition was going to get more even and that perhaps just 13 or 14 wins would see you gain a top 4 position. This may well be the case.

[Sedat]

Another thing, at the start of the year it was thought that the competition was going to get more even and that perhaps just 13 or 14 wins would see you gain a top 4 position. This may well be the case.
St Kilda play Geelong and Hawthorn once each. Even if they lose both matches, nobody else will get near them if they remain injury free - they are a soda for 19 wins in the H&A bare minimum, more likely 20. Geelong will also win at least 18, and you'd expect Hawthorn to clock up around 15-16 wins when they get their full compliment back. So 4th place will be fought out but a good 4-5 clubs, and as few as 13 wins should be enough to gain the double chance.

[1eyedog]

You have raised some good points there.

What I will say is that if we get our skills back to our normal levels, continue to win the contested ball count and see improvement in our out of form/ underdone players we should be able to win more than half of our games at ES.

I agree we have struggled against the zone, but this hasn't been help by our inability to keep possession of the ball under little or no pressure which is criminal.

Another thing, at the start of the year it was thought that the competition was going to get more even and that perhaps just 13 or 14 wins would see you gain a top 4 position. This may well be the case.

It probably goes without saying but this paragraph sums it up in a nutshell. An improvement in these areas and the continuation of breaking even or winning the contested ball will see us back in the upper echelon regardless of where we play.

[Jasper]

Well ES, before the season started I thought we'd have trouble with zones and in the pre-season a handful of us here were concerned about our skills.

Perhaps we're wrong (I hope so) but IMO we haven't really played well this year and the whole team seems out of sorts on all sorts of levels.

I suppose the questions are why and how we can rectify it. I hope it doesn't turn out that other coaches have figured us out and we simply can't handle these new zones well applied.

I agree with this. We have been a long way off our best all season and the football we are playing won't sustain a genuine finals spot or finals campaign.
It seems strange that the football players are held accountable by so many here and yet the Football department isn't challenged. The football dept set the direction and the style of play so given we haven't hit our straps what is the actual problem?

[AndrewP6]

Top four is not a total failure, however, at the start of the season, we would have thought a GF berth is minimum.

Would have loved that, but did we really think we'd improved THAT much over summer? Not sure about that.

[CJ09]

There is definitely a range of issues starting to emerge after the recent losses. Injuries aren't that significant when you compare them to some other teams, so that is probably disappointing as we are struggling even without a huge amount of injuries. I think that list of out of form and young players is what is leading to inconsistency and also means we will battle against the top 4-6 sides. We still have the potential and a fairly good/diverse list but we are going to have to be at out top level to have any chance against the top four.

[GVGjr]

There is definitely a range of issues starting to emerge after the recent losses. Injuries aren't that significant when you compare them to some other teams, so that is probably disappointing as we are struggling even without a huge amount of injuries. I think that list of out of form and young players is what is leading to inconsistency and also means we will battle against the top 4-6 sides. We still have the potential and a fairly good/diverse list but we are going to have to be at out top level to have any chance against the top four.

Terrific first up post. Welcome to WOOF

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

There is definitely a range of issues starting to emerge after the recent losses. Injuries aren't that significant when you compare them to some other teams, so that is probably disappointing as we are struggling even without a huge amount of injuries. I think that list of out of form and young players is what is leading to inconsistency and also means we will battle against the top 4-6 sides. We still have the potential and a fairly good/diverse list but we are going to have to be at out top level to have any chance against the top four.

Nice work CJ09.

I'm also looking at the fact we have had the highest number of goals kicked against us from our turnovers in the league, by a fair way. 39 in fact. The next worst are the West Coast Eagles on 25.

Is this players out of form who are not following instruction? Or is there something inherently wrong with the strategy underpinning their instructions?

I would hope that both players and coaches are looking at this facet of our game, as that is a huge problem, and no doubt an area other coaches will be looking at when devising a strategy to play us. Adelaide will be a big test as they are well versed in playing a pressurised zoning game.

[LostDoggy]

Top four is not a total failure, however, at the start of the season, we would have thought a GF berth is minimum.

The season is long, say if we copped a number of major injuries(touch wood). Then I'd be happy with just finals experience with an outlook to next year.

[GVGjr]

The season is long, say if we copped a number of major injuries(touch wood). Then I'd be happy with just finals experience with an outlook to next year.

I get the feeling you are really writing down expectations for this season but based on last seasons effort we shouldn't be. We already wrote down the NAB cup campaign because supposedly the main season was the primary focus and now it appears we are giving the football department a few get out of jail free cards in case we fail to deliver this year.
I don't agree with moving the goal posts for them.

[Mantis]

I get the feeling you are really writing down expectations for this season but based on last seasons effort we shouldn't be. We already wrote down the NAB cup campaign because supposedly the main season was the primary focus and now it appears we are giving the football department a few get out of jail free cards in case we fail to deliver this year.

I don't agree with moving the goal posts for them.

But were last years performances a bit of a fluke? Looking closely through our first 15 games where we were 13-1-1 we were bloody lucky to win atleast 3 or 4 of these games. We really could have finished about 6th or 8th which would have been probably about right.

The expectations within the footy department I think are a bit lower than the expectations of most of our fans.

[GVGjr]

But were last years performances a bit of a fluke? Looking closely through our first 15 games where we were 13-1-1 we were bloody lucky to win atleast 3 or 4 of these games. We really could have finished about 6th or 8th which would have been probably about right.

The expectations within the footy department I think are a bit lower than the expectations of most of our fans.

First up, last season should not be regarded as a fluke.
Regarding the expectations, well the club has repeatedly said we are a top 4 side and that they weren't happy with last years result meaning that we are still aiming high. Both Rodney and David still believe we are a genuine contender and have recently confirmed that.

If you are indicating that we overachieved last year, then it's not exactly a great endorsement for Eade.

2005 - 9th
2006 - 8th
2007 - 13th
2008 - 3rd (written it down to more like 6th or 8th)
2009 - ??? (after 6 rounds we are hosing down expectations)

If Eade backs up again with a 7th or 8th position this season then wouldn't he need a bit of luck to get a contract extension?

On a more positive note, I hear the players are far from happy with their performances and are very keyed up to make amends over at Adelaide this weekend. They still rate their chances.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I get the feeling you are really writing down expectations for this season but based on last seasons effort we shouldn't be. We already wrote down the NAB cup campaign because supposedly the main season was the primary focus and now it appears we are giving the football department a few get out of jail free cards in case we fail to deliver this year.
I don't agree with moving the goal posts for them.

I agree.

I don't see why expectations should be hosed down to protect the football department. We can't afford to continue the trend of having one bad season, one good season. The aim is to continually improve - if we don't, then it's not good enough. The amount of talent on our list is better than the majority, and for that reason, the last three games have been extremely disappointing.


But were last years performances a bit of a fluke? Looking closely through our first 15 games where we were 13-1-1 we were bloody lucky to win atleast 3 or 4 of these games. We really could have finished about 6th or 8th which would have been probably about right.

The expectations within the footy department I think are a bit lower than the expectations of most of our fans.

Whilst you need a bit of luck, for the most part in football - you make your own luck. Last year for the first 15 rounds we were bold, skillful and team orientated. So far this season we've been the complete opposite. Skills are bad, we're playing hesitant football and we're not team orientated at all. How many blocks etc. have there been in the past three weeks? Hardly any. The hospital handpasses, the unaccountability, the severe lack of relentless pressure - the overall team play has been poor.

We were 13-1-1 because we played very good football.

We've lost the last three because we've played very poorly. The younger types are struggling to have any real impact and the senior players are horribly out of form.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If you are indicating that we overachieved last year, then it's not exactly a great endorsement for Eade.

2005 - 9th
2006 - 8th
2007 - 13th
2008 - 3rd (written it down to more like 6th or 8th)
2009 - ??? (after 6 rounds we are hosing down expectations)

If Eade backs up again with a 7th or 8th position this season then wouldn't he need a bit of luck to get a contract extension?



It's a good call, G.

There's no doubt that Eade's contract extension rests heavily on our positioning this year. He's done a good job to date but things can turn pretty quickly. '05 we came home with a bang after a terrible 03/04. In 06 we were crippled with injuries but still made finals and defeated Collingwood in the EF. '07 was a serious disaster, but we came back strongly in '08. The thing is though, as good a season as we had last year, a lot of people still remember the last 7-8 weeks where we were pretty poor. That's why it makes this season pivotal - if we fall out of the Top 4/5, I think Eade would be in trouble and TBH - rightfully so.

[bornadog]

It's a good call, G.

There's no doubt that Eade's contract extension rests heavily on our positioning this year. He's done a good job to date but things can turn pretty quickly. '05 we came home with a bang after a terrible 03/04. In 06 we were crippled with injuries but still made finals and defeated Collingwood in the EF. '07 was a serious disaster, but we came back strongly in '08. The thing is though, as good a season as we had last year, a lot of people still remember the last 7-8 weeks where we were pretty poor. That's why it makes this season pivotal - if we fall out of the Top 4/5, I think Eade would be in trouble and TBH - rightfully so.

Its going to be an interesting next few weeks. Lets hope we can carry the momentum of the last quarter on Sunday into next week.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Lots of interesting issues bubbling away

My expectations pre-season were that we should be aiming to make the grand final. And certainly the top 4, but that I could live with a slightly lower finish (top 6) provided a) we were investing the time in players who can improve our structure (i.e key forwards, midfield), and b) the group performed in September.

However the list is still a bit of a concern with the key forward options still raw (Grant, Boumann, Stack?) or super raw (Jones, Cordy). And question marks over the speed of the next crew of midfielders.

[Rocket Science]

The expectations within the footy department I think are a bit lower than the expectations of most of our fans.

If accurate, frankly I'm inclined to agree, primarily due to personnel/structure issues.

The extent to which this may be true raises some interesting questions, namely if and when in 2009 we plan on getting game time into the kids being pegged as future regulars in the next 2-3 yrs.

[Mantis]

First up, last season should not be regarded as a fluke.
Regarding the expectations, well the club has repeatedly said we are a top 4 side and that they weren't happy with last years result meaning that we are still aiming high. Both Rodney and David still believe we are a genuine contender and have recently confirmed that.

Of course David is going to say that, he is trying to sell the dream to the clubs supporters and sponsors. From what I have read Rodney has been a little more circumspect with his comments.



If Eade backs up again with a 7th or 8th position this season then wouldn't he need a bit of luck to get a contract extension?


I would think that besides this relative slow start I think expectations would still be for a top 6 finish at the end of the H&A season. Hopefully we can hit the finals in some good form and see what happens from there.

I do agree that if we have a poor finish to the season questions will need to be asked either on the coaching set-up or the playing list. (as long as we aren't injury ravaged or the like.) I still believe that we will finsih the season off strongly and there won't be a need for these discussions.

[Mantis]

We've lost the last three because we've played very poorly. The younger types are struggling to have any real impact and the senior players are horribly out of form.

I would think that overall our younger types are holding up there end of the deal quite well. Higgins, Hill & Harbrow have all been good to very good this year. Addison has struggled a little, but has shown improvement thus far. Williams has been good in a defensive role, but has made some skill/ decision making errors, but we often forget how raw he is.

The real problem lies in the 'senior' group. One could argue that from our senior core of 10 to 12 players only Boyd has either taken his game to a higher level or playing at a consistently high standard. All of Hahn, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Gilbee, Eagleton, Cross, Johnson, etc.. aren't and that is where the problem lies.

We can all see that the game has changed very quickly with zoning now become the norm. It's maybe a harsh reality that some of these 'senior' players just aren't equipped to play the modern game, I guess only time will tell.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I would think that overall our younger types are holding up there end of the deal quite well. Higgins, Hill & Harbrow have all been good to very good this year. Addison has struggled a little, but has shown improvement thus far. Williams has been good in a defensive role, but has made some skill/ decision making errors, but we often forget how raw he is.

The real problem lies in the 'senior' group. One could argue that from our senior core of 10 to 12 players only Boyd has either taken his game to a higher level or playing at a consistently high standard. All of Hahn, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Gilbee, Eagleton, Cross, Johnson, etc.. aren't and that is where the problem lies.

We can all see that the game has changed very quickly with zoning now become the norm. It's maybe a harsh reality that some of these 'senior' players just aren't equipped to play the modern game, I guess only time will tell.

Spot on. Our senior core has to lift if we want to achieve anything in 09, but they've got to keep introducing players to see who looks able to deal with this zone styled game

[GVGjr]

Of course David is going to say that, he is trying to sell the dream to the clubs supporters and sponsors. From what I have read Rodney has been a little more circumspect with his comments.


I would think that besides this relative slow start I think expectations would still be for a top 6 finish at the end of the H&A season. Hopefully we can hit the finals in some good form and see what happens from there.

I do agree that if we have a poor finish to the season questions will need to be asked either on the coaching set-up or the playing list. (as long as we aren't injury ravaged or the like.) I still believe that we will finsih the season off strongly and there won't be a need for these discussions.

So if I am reading what you are saying correctly you are basically implying that Eade and Smorgon are intentionally over promising with the supporters but knowing that they will more than likely actually under deliver on their word? That clearly doesn't say a lot for the integrity of the club.

I can't agree with you on that

[bornadog]

I would think that besides this relative slow start I think expectations would still be for a top 6 finish at the end of the H&A season.

I would hope expectations are for a top four finish given last years performance. Maybe the expectations have been realigned?

[bornadog]

So if I am reading what you are saying correctly you are basically implying that Eade and Smorgon are intentionally over promising with the supporters but knowing that they will more than likely actually under deliver on their word? That clearly doesn't say a lot for the integrity of the club.

I can't agree with you on that

I think they always over promise during membership driver time.;) , especially the president.

[1eyedog]

So if I am reading what you are saying correctly you are basically implying that Eade and Smorgon are intentionally over promising with the supporters but knowing that they will more than likely actually under deliver on their word? That clearly doesn't say a lot for the integrity of the club.

I can't agree with you on that


It's reality. Politicians do it all the time so what does that say about the integrity of those running our country, or worse yet the how our country is viewed globally? The Bulldogs are a business, gone are the days of old where the clubs were run with honesty, sweat and blood. Eade and Smorgon need as many members to sign up as possible and sponsorship has always been an issue, of course they are going to put a spin on things. It's like a commentator saying "North Melbourne are 24 points down with 10 minutes left on the clock and they are still a big show" just so you'll watch the end of the match even though you know the end result.

I'm not saying that we are not going to make the eight because I believe we will and we may even take third or fourth on the ladder after rd 22, but it is the job of Eade and Smorgon to sell the club regardless of whether they over promise or not, that's not even a factor at the moment because the sustainability of the Western Bulldogs through sponsorship and membership is paramount to whether they think we will live up to expectations.

[Dry Rot]

The real problem lies in the 'senior' group. One could argue that from our senior core of 10 to 12 players only Boyd has either taken his game to a higher level or playing at a consistently high standard. All of Hahn, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Gilbee, Eagleton, Cross, Johnson, etc.. aren't and that is where the problem lies.

We can all see that the game has changed very quickly with zoning now become the norm. It's maybe a harsh reality that some of these 'senior' players just aren't equipped to play the modern game, I guess only time will tell.

A very interesting post. Might explain why they appear out of form. And why so many appear out of form.

[Desipura]

I would think that overall our younger types are holding up there end of the deal quite well. Higgins, Hill & Harbrow have all been good to very good this year. Addison has struggled a little, but has shown improvement thus far. Williams has been good in a defensive role, but has made some skill/ decision making errors, but we often forget how raw he is.

The real problem lies in the 'senior' group. One could argue that from our senior core of 10 to 12 players only Boyd has either taken his game to a higher level or playing at a consistently high standard. All of Hahn, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Gilbee, Eagleton, Cross, Johnson, etc.. aren't and that is where the problem lies.

We can all see that the game has changed very quickly with zoning now become the norm. It's maybe a harsh reality that some of these 'senior' players just aren't equipped to play the modern game, I guess only time will tell.
A very interesting post, is there any coincedence that out of all those players they either are not the best kicks or do not have the engine to run all day?
Not one of them can both run all day and kick well.

[Go_Dogs]

A very interesting post. Might explain why they appear out of form. And why so many appear out of form.

Why aren't all the more senior players at every other club struggling then? Are our senior guys worse? Is it a coaching problem? A development issue?


I tend to think it's form, rather than the game passing these types by.

[1eyedog]

Why aren't all the more senior players at every other club struggling then? Are our senior guys worse? Is it a coaching problem? A development issue?


I tend to think it's form, rather than the game passing these types by.


Agreed. Football departments and players ability do not change for the worse that drastically in six months.

[bornadog]

Why aren't all the more senior players at every other club struggling then? Are our senior guys worse? Is it a coaching problem? A development issue?


I tend to think it's form, rather than the game passing these types by.

How about the wrong side of 30 for at least 5 players?

[Mofra]

So if I am reading what you are saying correctly you are basically implying that Eade and Smorgon are intentionally over promising with the supporters but knowing that they will more than likely actually under deliver on their word? That clearly doesn't say a lot for the integrity of the club.

I can't agree with you on that
What would be better - optimism or pessimism from the club? There is some power in positive expectancy, that has been measuered as a real effect in a variety of circumstances. I would rather a certain level of confidence to be displayed at all levels at the club, rather than the 1980s Footscray attitude of constantly trying to be the underdog.

How well do players fare when they lose their confidence? Now translate that to the playing group hearing their own coach & board panning them publically? To me this has nothing to do with a lack of integrity, and more to do with maintaining a level of confidence that is vital to success in almost any field of endeavour.

[Go_Dogs]

How about the wrong side of 30 for at least 5 players?

Akermanis has arguably been one of our better players this year against the zone tactics, Eagleton has started the year probably better than he did last year. Hudson has been ok too, and Welsh has been out injured. Johnson is the only one who this really applies too - and I think he's been ok given how the team is travelling probably affects his output more than most others.

The side we're up against this weekend has quite a few golden oldies too, Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod, and Doughty and a few others are no spring chickens.

So it would seem to me to be irrelevant re: the over 30 guys. It's the middle tier age bracket that we really need more consistent efforts from, and as I said before I think it's a bit off the mark to suggest the game has passed guys like Gia and Gilbee by. Yes, they've had a few bad weeks, but they are not finished as players because of it.

[LostDoggy]

Spot on. Our senior core has to lift if we want to achieve anything in 09, but they've got to keep introducing players to see who looks able to deal with this zone styled game

This is so true - our senior players are not playing their best footy - we need them to lift so we can keep blooding our younger guys.

[GVGjr]

Why aren't all the more senior players at every other club struggling then? Are our senior guys worse? Is it a coaching problem? A development issue?


I tend to think it's form, rather than the game passing these types by.

It's early days yet but in the next few weeks if his form holds we could potentially also add why Ray is playing better football at the Saints than he did with us.

[Happy Days]

It's early days yet but in the next few weeks if his form holds we could potentially also add why Ray is playing better football at the Saints than he did with us.

I think its because their playing style, an overly defensive, somewhat slower-paced one, suits him better than ours did. Also, having Riewoldt as your target can make your skills look a little less rubbish.

[Go_Dogs]

It's early days yet but in the next few weeks if his form holds we could potentially also add why Ray is playing better football at the Saints than he did with us.

He's playing a role they really needed (and we thought we had enough of, but in hindsight, perhaps we don't), plus has the luxury of bombing the ball long to two very good targets.



FWIW, the way the Saints are playing even I would look good out there at the moment.



If I'm reading between the lines though, it seems you believe we are still a bit behind the mark in development.

[GVGjr]

He's playing a role they really needed (and we thought we had enough of, but in hindsight, perhaps we don't), plus has the luxury of bombing the ball long to two very good targets.

FWIW, the way the Saints are playing even I would look good out there at the moment.


If I'm reading between the lines though, it seems you believe we are still a bit behind the mark in development.

I've said it before but I don't think Eade is very good at reinventing players especially some of the high drafts picks. To me Ray could do a very similar job to Callan (maybe not just on the real quicks) or maybe even Picken but he really wasn't shuffled around to see if he could make one or two positions his own. Same with Power who has done well at North. It's not really a development issue in the truest sense because lets face it the club has invested a small fortune in the player development department over the last couple of years but I get the impression that he could do a lot more with obviously talented players who he isn't getting the most out of.

[1eyedog]

I've said it before but I don't think Eade is very good at reinventing players especially some of the high drafts picks. To me Ray could do a very similar job to Callan (maybe not just on the real quicks) or maybe even Picken but he really wasn't shuffled around to see if he could make one or two positions his own. Same with Power who has done well at North. It's not really a development issue in the truest sense because lets face it the club has invested a small fortune in the player development department over the last couple of years but I get the impression that he could do a lot more with obviously talented players who he isn't getting the most out of.

Agreed. There seems to be a lack of trying out different players in different positions and when he does swing the changes they are real head scratches if you ask me. I agree that Welsh was ok at times off a half back flank last season, but Akermanis was wasted in the same position in two games I went to at Docklands.

[ledge]

Why do we take players as forwards and turn them into backman? EG Lake and Tiller.
Our weakness is our forward line but we dont advance the skills the player has shown to be good enough to get in the draft and be picked, instead turning his whole game around into the opposite mode he has grown up playing instinctively.

[MrMahatma]

I'm very frustrated with our selections, and not playing young guys who are performing, and not actually picking a structure that will win games.

I've found many of Eade's moves and selections frustrating - not least the playing of unfit guys. Surely a run in the reserves would've helped Cooney. He was never going to have much impact on Sunday.

[GVGjr]

What would be better - optimism or pessimism from the club?

How about some old fashioned honesty? Lets compare the Hawks and the Dogs.

The Hawks told their supporters about their move to Tasmania and they made it work.
The Hawks told their supporters that they would trade away established players for draft picks and cop their whack for a couple of seasons and they did just that.
The Hawks said they would be a premiership contender by 2010 and they achieved that earlier than expected.

The Dogs have tried Canberra, the Sunshine Coast and Darwin and are now looking to get away from that now.
The Dogs traded for older players to top off their list because we were supposedly a contender.
The Dogs told us they weren't content with a top four finish in 2008 and now appear to be backing away from that.

If they are now backing away from their words in my opinion it's not and issue about pessimism or optimism.

[Mitcha]

Why do we take players as forwards and turn them into backman? EG Lake and Tiller..
Not meaning to be rude Ledge but where would we have been without Lake at Full back over the last 6 or 7 years.

[Mantis]

The Dogs have tried Canberra, the Sunshine Coast and Darwin and are now looking to get away from that now.
The Dogs traded for older players to top off their list because we were supposedly a contender.
The Dogs told us they weren't content with a top four finish in 2008 and now appear to be backing away from that.


I don't buy that one.

We picked up Welsh in the PSD for nothing. We traded for a ruckman (Hudson) because we didn't have one. We traded for Akermanis by trading away a low 2nd round pick in a very iffy draft.

I don't think we have lost anything by taking these players over 3 more kids.

[The Coon Dog]

The Hawks told their supporters that they would trade away established players for draft picks and cop their whack for a couple of seasons and they did just that.


And how would this go down with our supporters?

[The Pie Man]

And how would this go down with our supporters?

Trading Croad didn't go down well at all at the time - very lucky to get him back really (like Tottenham getting Robbie Keane back)

But other players of note they got rid of did little at other clubs....well Nathan Thompson did ok at North, but Hay was a disaster. You could argue McMahon could fall into that category.

The Dawks had a bit of luck on their side, and drafted forwards that built up like men pretty quick.

[The Coon Dog]

Trading Croad didn't go down well at all at the time - very lucky to get him back really (like Tottenham getting Robbie Keane back)

But other players of note they got rid of did little at other clubs....well Nathan Thompson did ok at North, but Hay was a disaster. You could argue McMahon could fall into that category.

The Dawks had a bit of luck on their side, and drafted forwards that built up like men pretty quick.

I'm not so much worried about how the fans would see us losing players x,y & z, more how they would feel if we were going to bottom out, win few games, but get terrific draft picks.

How many would just not renew their memberships if that happened?

[bornadog]

I'm not so much worried about how the fans would see us losing players x,y & z, more how they would feel if we were going to bottom out, win few games, but get terrific draft picks.

How many would just not renew their memberships if that happened?

I don't think we need to do that. The young list is looking promising at the moment we just need to get more out of the 26 to 30 year olds. If we can't then maybe we have to rethink our strategy and trade for some more ready made players, but more in the 25 to 28 year old bracket, not has been 30 year olds.

[GVGjr]

I don't buy that one.

We picked up Welsh in the PSD for nothing. We traded for a ruckman (Hudson) because we didn't have one. We traded for Akermanis by trading away a low 2nd round pick in a very iffy draft.

I don't think we have lost anything by taking these players over 3 more kids.

The whole thing is that we moved on or couldn't hold on to young players with experience in Power, McMahon and Ray and the 3 key replacements we targeted were all not long term options. Why would the club take a short term view if they didn't think we could contend?
We also really had a crack at landing Robertson as well.

IMO, We knew we had a list that could contend and we chased players to compliment the list. The top 4 finish last season would say it was a reasonable return for the short term.
Longer term if we are to just fumble around around the mid table this year then the strategy of targeting the older guys won't serve us well.

With some draft restrictions over the next few years, the loss of several older experienced guys in quick succession might just expose us even more.

[The Pie Man]

I'm not so much worried about how the fans would see us losing players x,y & z, more how they would feel if we were going to bottom out, win few games, but get terrific draft picks.

How many would just not renew their memberships if that happened?

Probably plenty - especially a club with a long premiership drought, some people give up the week to week passion and jump on the bandwagon again when we're good.

It's the dilemma North are faced with every year in a way. Expansion markets like Sydney & Brisbane too. Bottom out and risk becoming irrelevant in the market place.

If only Walsh stayed fit, we could've reaped the rewards of our bottoming out...at least Cooney's great. I hold hope for Jarrad Grant

[The Pie Man]

Oh and as bornadog said, we still have a pretty good core bracket of senior players with years left. At least I hope we're not approaching a rebuilding phase again!!

[LostDoggy]

I do agree that if we have a poor finish to the season questions will need to be asked either on the coaching set-up or the playing list.

A few more losses & questions will be stepped up quick smart on the suitability of the coach and others surrounding him & rightly so similar to what occured a few years back with Eade and his inability to handle the multitude of tasks set before him.

[Mantis]

The whole thing is that we moved on or couldn't hold on to young players with experience in Power, McMahon and Ray and the 3 key replacements we targeted were all not long term options. Why would the club take a short term view if they didn't think we could contend?
We also really had a crack at landing Robertson as well.

IMO, We knew we had a list that could contend and we chased players to compliment the list. The top 4 finish last season would say it was a reasonable return for the short term.

Longer term if we are to just fumble around around the mid table this year then the strategy of targeting the older guys won't serve us well.

With some draft restrictions over the next few years, the loss of several older experienced guys in quick succession might just expose us even more.

I think you are too concerned with the short term. Yes we topped up a little in areas of need, but we have also drafted with an eye for the future. On paper we have some extremely talented youngsters that will fit perfectly into our team in years to come.

We have two very promising ruckman (Cordy & Roughead) on our list in at the start of their journey. I have only seen these guys on a couple occassions, but both appear to be excellent long term prospects. Yes we traded for Hudson to complement Minson in the short term, but the long term view is that when Hudson retires in a couple of years time we will have two young bulls ready and waiting in the wings.

Ok so we picked up Welch in the PSD and sounded out Robertson (who was also only giving to be picked up in the PSD) to play a role in the forwardline to complement Johnson and others, but we have also drafted youngsters such as Grant, Boumann & Jones over the past 2 seasons with an eye for these guys to play key roles in our forwardline in the years to come.

Akermanis was a 'no brainer' and even you would have to agree that he has given us great value for his cost price.

From the 3 players you have brought up that we moved along only Ray may bite us the bum. Yes Power is playing a role for North, but his kicking hasn't really improved and for him to stay we would have had to move on a Boyd or Cross. McMahon is still a poor defender and yes he is flashy, but he is no great loss. I agree that we should have shown more faith in Ray, I thought he was unfairly handled in his time at the kennel, but perhaps he was never going to fulfil his potential in our environment and only after a fresh start has the penny dropped.

[GVGjr]

I think you are too concerned with the short term. Yes we topped up a little in areas of need, but we have also drafted with an eye for the future. On paper we have some extremely talented youngsters that will fit perfectly into our team in years to come.



No that's not the issue unless you are talking about the current season which is the primary point of this thread.
I'm challenging the notion and the apparent acceptance that limping into the finals this year as opposed to really shaping the finals by being one of the more prominent teams will be regarded as good enough.
I certainly don't see it that way.

If the club isn't aiming high, especially after the season we had in 2008, then it's more or less accepting the one thing that David Smorgon said they wouldn't.

[Mantis]

No that's not the issue unless you are talking about the current season which is the primary point of this thread.
I'm challenging the notion and the apparent acceptance that limping into the finals this year as opposed to really shaping the finals by being one of the more prominent teams will be regarded as good enough.
I certainly don't see it that way.

If the club isn't aiming high, especially after the season we had in 2008, then it's more or less accepting the one thing that David Smorgon said they wouldn't.

I personally think you are reading to much into this lack of real expectation. Being fair I don't think we were ever going to jump straight out of the blocks this year.

Our best player (Cooney) had no pre-season and has really struggled thus far. No guesses to who got us going last year.

Our most important forward (Murphy) like-wise has offered nothing so far after no real pre-season.

We have several other good players down on form, but they should be able to turn that around... So I am lead to believe.

Take Hawthorn for example, do you hear there supporters bemoaning the fact that they have had a relative poor start to the season. No because they have had injuries and players coming off interrupted pre-seasons. They know that once they get there full list up and going that they will be there when the whips start cracking in the 2nd half of the year.

I feel that we have similiar expectations to those of Hawthorn and I believe that even though we aren't playing at our best at present that we have much time to get our season back on track.... Let's just wait and see how it unfolds.

[Sedat]

Akermanis was a 'no brainer' and even you would have to agree that he has given us great value for his cost price.
Not only has Aker given us terrific service as a player (and the player Brisbane recruited with that pick, Chris Schmidt, was delisted after 2 games), but his recruitment was a very symbolic moment for the club. Until then, we were about as attractive as Siberia for players looking to change clubs. It made me sick to hear thorougly average AFL players like Nick Holland and Jade Rawlings openly express their horror at the possibility of being traded to the 'dirty downtrodden Dogs'. When Aker was officially placed on the market, every Melbourne based club was all over him like a cheap suit, and he willingly chose us - this was a major moment in our history and our reputation as an attractive club destination for players either drafted to us or on the move.

I'm not sure the 2006 ND was 'iffy' at the time - from memory, it was considered to be the equal of 2001 and still might end up that way. It should also be pointed out that the loss of our 2nd round draft pick did cost us the chance to get Nathan Krakouer, who Scott Clayton openly stated was so highly regarded that he was a possibly of us using our first pick on him.

But overall, it was symbolically very important to lure Aker to the club, and he will end up providing 60-70 valuable matches for the club (maybe more if he goes on next year), and will have been a valuable teacher to our playing group coming from one of the most successful teams in VFL/AFL history.

[GVGjr]

I personally think you are reading to much into this lack of real expectation. Being fair I don't think we were ever going to jump straight out of the blocks this year.



I disagree. I'm more comforatble with the fact that we can still be a significant player in the years finals despite the last 3 weeks however, you were one of the fist to start hosing down the expectations and implied that we overachieved last year. We are now different to Hawthorn in that regard and their supporters are still looking at the back to back option.

[Mantis]

I disagree. I'm more comforatble with the fact that we can still be a significant player in the years finals despite the last 3 weeks however, you were one of the fist to start hosing down the expectations and implied that we overachieved last year. We are now different to Hawthorn in that regard and their supporters are still looking at the back to back option.

I just feel the notion that if we don't finish top 4 at the end of the home & away season this year will be seen as a failure is unfair. Sure we had a very good season last year, but we did so on the back of our very best players playing well and against the odds in some respect (lack of tall forwards & defenders)

To feel that many supporters out there feel that it's a given that we will take the next step and make the GF, but it's not. If we can maintain ground, get some games into our young guys (Hill, Higgins, Williams, etc) and through a re-vamped development program fast track some of our kids then I think the season could be seen as a success.

Yes I expect us to not only make the finals, but to perform well when we get there, (and I think that is expected by the club internally as well) but the underlying feeling I am getting is that if the season is seen as a failure then a off field clean out is required is not the right way to go.

[Stefcep]

Morris and Hargrave are the same size ie 190cm, hardly talls in this day and age.

Morris on Riewoldt was always going to be a mismatch.

Lake would have matched up better.

Thats Eades decision.

[The Coon Dog]

Morris on Riewoldt was always going to be a mismatch.

Lake would have matched up better.

Thats Eades decision.

Same 'mismatch' that worked well last season. Guess it's a valued judgement call & time tells whether it worked, obviously this time it didn't.

[GVGjr]

I just feel the notion that if we don't finish top 4 at the end of the home & away season this year will be seen as a failure is unfair. Sure we had a very good season last year, but we did so on the back of our very best players playing well and against the odds in some respect (lack of tall forwards & defenders)


I simply believe that the coach and the president have both recently committed that we are a top 4 chance and that we haven't seen anything as yet to say that it still can't be achieved. Now that might change in the next few weeks and we can reasses then but it's too early to simply lower the bar at the moment. As you are aware the club as good as wrote off the NAB cup campaign so that we could best position ourseleves for the H&A season and 6 weeks into the season we are now cutting the club too much slack.
As I said, we are roughly in the same position as the Hawks and their fans are still maintaining their original expectations and right at this moment so am I.

[Mantis]

I simply believe that the coach and the president have both recently committed that we are a top 4 chance and that we haven't seen anything as yet to say that it still can't be achieved. Now that might change in the next few weeks and we can reasses then but it's too early to simply lower the bar at the moment. As you are aware the club as good as wrote off the NAB cup campaign so that we could best position ourseleves for the H&A season and 6 weeks into the season we are now cutting the club too much slack.

As I said, we are roughly in the same position as the Hawks and their fans are still maintaining their original expectations and right at this moment so am I.

And so am I which is great.:)

As I have previously stated I am hoping our very good players start finding some form coming up to the break and we make a long and sustained run from then on towards the finals.

[Mofra]

How about some old fashioned honesty? Lets compare the Hawks and the Dogs.

The Hawks told their supporters about their move to Tasmania and they made it work.
The Hawks told their supporters that they would trade away established players for draft picks and cop their whack for a couple of seasons and they did just that.
The Hawks said they would be a premiership contender by 2010 and they achieved that earlier than expected.

The Dogs have tried Canberra, the Sunshine Coast and Darwin and are now looking to get away from that now.
The Dogs traded for older players to top off their list because we were supposedly a contender.
The Dogs told us they weren't content with a top four finish in 2008 and now appear to be backing away from that.

If they are now backing away from their words in my opinion it's not and issue about pessimism or optimism.
Everything you've listed above has nothing to do with honesty either.

Optimism is not a promise of future success, it is the anticipation of it. Optimism in an outcome that falls short of expectation is not a lie, it is merely incorrect. There is a marked difference.

In any case, how would you feel as a player if 6 rounds into the season, at 3/3 (same as Hawks & WCE in their premiership years), the coach and president come out and say "we're actually crap, our players are poo, we'd rather just tank now to avoid getting our supporters hopes up?". That would be a stupid reaction to a poor season start.

[GVGjr]

Everything you've listed above has nothing to do with honesty either.

Optimism is not a promise of future success, it is the anticipation of it. Optimism in an outcome that falls short of expectation is not a lie, it is merely incorrect. There is a marked difference.

In any case, how would you feel as a player if 6 rounds into the season, at 3/3 (same as Hawks & WCE in their premiership years), the coach and president come out and say "we're actually crap, our players are poo, we'd rather just tank now to avoid getting our supporters hopes up?". That would be a stupid reaction to a poor season start.

The coach and president said they weren't content with the top 4 finish last year however, Mantis alluded to the fact that the football department actually had much lower expectations for 2009. If that is they case, and I'm not sure that it is, then it does question their integrity.


But were last years performances a bit of a fluke? Looking closely through our first 15 games where we were 13-1-1 we were bloody lucky to win at least 3 or 4 of these games. We really could have finished about 6th or 8th which would have been probably about right.

The expectations within the footy department I think are a bit lower than the expectations of most of our fans.

Most of the fans form their expectations for the season ahead based on what the coach and the president say. I don't expect the club to say what you have written but they were never the less fairly bullish in their views.

I also wrote about the Hawks Dogs comparison because it shows a club that tells their supporters the facts about where the club is and then delivers the results.

[Stefcep]

History of the dogs 101 guys... been a fan a long long time now and when the dogs start like this and start playing with there head down like they are.


Clearly visible against the Saints at the start of the third quarter when our 6 forwards all moved together to take their positions, and ALL of them had their heads bowed down, not looking at their team mates, no signs of ANY confidence, johno not doing anything to jeer up their spirit, they had thrown in the towel big time.

[Stefcep]

Same 'mismatch' that worked well last season. Guess it's a valued judgement call & time tells whether it worked, obviously this time it didn't.

Yep. On last years effort worth a try, but not for what 3 quarters and when if he'd kicked straight, riewoldt could have had ten goals. Eade is their to make changes as the game unfolds. I jsut think he failed to act quickly enough.

[Mofra]

The coach and president said they weren't content with the top 4 finish last year however, Mantis alluded to the fact that the football department actually had much lower expectations for 2009. If that is they case, and I'm not sure that it is, then it does question their integrity.
I wouldn't say it questions their integrity at all, even if it was true (which nobody, including yourself, can substantiate). The fact is, if the senior figures at the club don't believe the team can perform, we either bottom out for the year or forfeit, as otherwise we are wasting our time. I don't believe this is the case.


Most of the fans form their expectations for the season ahead based on what the coach and the president say. I don't expect the club to say what you have written but they were never the less fairly bullish in their views.
I don't think this is entirely correct - you only have to read expectations on individual players to see how far away perception of fans & the club is. We have an unfit potential KPP for example(Grant) dropped by the match committee, yet a thread on this site convinced he will become a gun KPP in a few weeks if planted in the FP.


I also wrote about the Hawks Dogs comparison because it shows a club that tells their supporters the facts about where the club is and then delivers the results.
Schwabby's mention of a premiership goal in his final season wouldn't suggest this is the case.

[FrediKanoute]

I would be inclined to put Addison in the still learning, along with Ward.

I agree in part. Yes Addison came from a non-AFL state, but he has been in the system for 4 years now. There has to come a time for Addison to step up and prove he really wants to be an AFL player! Ward is in his second year so for mine is not really a point of comparison. More concerning for me is the stymied devlopment of Lynch and Stack. I would have expected both these boys to be pushing for games this year.

[bornadog]

I agree in part. Yes Addison came from a non-AFL state, but he has been in the system for 4 years now. There has to come a time for Addison to step up and prove he really wants to be an AFL player! Ward is in his second year so for mine is not really a point of comparison. More concerning for me is the stymied devlopment of Lynch and Stack. I would have expected both these boys to be pushing for games this year.

I think Stack will push for a game but Lynch is still a concern.

[LostDoggy]

I just saw on Before the Bounce we are second last in terms of spending on the Footy Department. We spend $12.8 milion while the Kangaroos spend $12.7. Interesting to see Essendon are 3rd last

[LostDoggy]

Hello all

I remembered the first half of 2008 season, the bulldogs kicked over 100 points every game.
But this season so far, they have only done that in two games.
Is it because of the new forward coach in Paul Williams?
New tactics etc...

[The Coon Dog]

Hello all

I remembered the first half of 2008 season, the bulldogs kicked over 100 points every game.
But this season so far, they have only done that in two games.
Is it because of the new forward coach in Paul Williams?
New tactics etc...
It's got to get into the forward line before the forwards can do anything!

[Mofra]

It's got to get into the forward line before the forwards can do anything!
I'd add that Cooney hasn't spent much time there, ditto Murph who is arguably our best forward. Welsh is another 40 odd goals per year lost from last year.

Josh Hill is probably our only good news story from the forwardline so far this year

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Josh Hill is probably our only good news story from the forwardline so far this year

I agree, which makes the fact that we haven't done anything so far to rectify this all the more worse.

The coaching panel has entrusted far too much faith in its senior players to 'turn it around'.

[Mofra]

I agree, which makes the fact that we haven't done anything so far to rectify this all the more worse.
I guess the idea of trying a Tiller or Skipper forward may actually have a slight chance if the coaching staff get desperate enough.

[Topdog]

I think Ern's been a little quick to dismiss the 'calibre of the opposition' factor.

You can only beat the opponent you're given, but full list or not North have major issues and look to have embarked upon their least competitive season for a some time, Fremantle are an unmitigated rabble with a mortgage on a bottom four spot, while Richmond's situation barely requires comment. All three are looking crook enough that they could be sporting new coaches by this time next year..

Won 3 on the trot now Freo and they play the Hawks at Subi next week in a real danger game for the Hawks.

I don't think you can say any teams are monties for the bottom 4 this year besides Melbourne and possibly Richmond. North have won tonight and funnily enough admist all the doom and gloom of about 70% of Bulldogs supporters a win tomorrow will move us to 3rd on the ladder, 4th at worst if Collingwood surprise the Saints.

[Topdog]

Well North tried their best to lose that one.