Tiller as a forward?

[Rocco Jones]

Lake, Morris and Williams give us decent depth in tall defensive options and it seems a bit of a waste to send Tiller back to Willy when we need a forward KP option.

I wouldn't drop Tiller either way as I have him ahead of Williams at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

Don't think he would be able to hold down the forward line, and would take a little while to transform into a forward.

I also have Williams ahead of him in the peaking order.

His last two games have been good, beat Miller & also contained Rooke last Friday night.

Tiller got beaten yesterday.

[ledge]

Don't think he would be able to hold down the forward line, and would take a little while to transform into a forward.

Tiller came as a forward and played his first few games in the seniors as a foward and kicked a couple, last time he played forward i saw him on his own a lot but we never kicked it to him, he has good strong hands and leads well.
IMO he should be forward and USED!

[LostDoggy]

Don't think he would be able to hold down the forward line, and would take a little while to transform into a forward.

Tiller came as a forward and played his first few games in the seniors as a foward and kicked a couple, last time he played forward i saw him on his own a lot but we never kicked it to him, he has good strong hands and leads well.
IMO he should be forward and USED!

Drafted 5 years ago as a forward, has really lit up in that area as well....

Has started to establish himself as a good back line player, i wouldn't move him anywhere.

[dog town]

Lake, Morris and Williams give us decent depth in tall defensive options and it seems a bit of a waste to send Tiller back to Willy when we need a forward KP option.

I wouldn't drop Tiller either way as I have him ahead of Williams at the moment. I like having guys like Tiller and Callan that we can call on for defensive roles. Both are tough competitors and both proved themselves under the finals spotlight last year imo. It does give us a few options having these 2 for depth. I have often wondered why they didn't give Tller a go as a lead up forward when Murphy was out. He is a hard worker and has improved significantly since he was last tried in that role. No reason he couldn't give us a little bit up forward when needed.

[lemmon]

Drafted as a forward, played his junior footy as a forward and performed well in his early games in the forward line. He's got a strong pair of hands, quick on the lead and will provide that forward line pressure that Hahn and Harbrow do.
For the first time in a long time we have an embarrasment of riches in regards to tall backmen so why not throw him forward again. Hes certainly a better option then Lake at full forward.

[azabob]

There must be a reason why he isn't played there.
Is he quick enough?
Maybe someone close to the club can find out why.

[hujsh]

There must be a reason why he isn't played there.
Is he quick enough?
Maybe someone close to the club can find out why.

When he made his debut they showed footage of Eade and co discussing whether to pick him or not at selection.

They listed his pace off the mark as a strength that could help him

[FrediKanoute]

There must be a reason why he isn't played there.
Is he quick enough?
Maybe someone close to the club can find out why.

I haven´t seen Tiller in a while, but can I throw up a problem I noticed previously.....he has a wide turning circle makingit difficult to back up multiple leads. In the backline he can un in one direction...straight ahead a lixury he doesn´t have in the forward line.

[Cyberdoggie]

When he made his debut they showed footage of Eade and co discussing whether to pick him or not at selection.

They listed his pace off the mark as a strength that could help him

I would say he is average paced.

Problem is he is not the most agile, certainly doesn't have any of Bobby's tricks.

When we tried him as a forward a couple of seasons ago he kicked 2 goals in a game i believe, both from leads and marks. However he didn't look really quick as a lead up forward, and wasn't strong enough to challenge anyone as a contesting forward.
I think his bodied has certainly matured now and has enough weight behind him to be reasonably effective as a defender.

Tiller always played up forward like a Murphy across the 50 or leading like a Lloyd/fevola out of the goal square. My big doubt with Tiller is his acceleration and lack of tricks in the bag to play that role. He needs some of Johnno's tricks like the nudge the defender under the ball and run on trick. If he showed some of that flair then he might be an option.
Worth a shot from time to time though.

[Mofra]

I would think he could play Mitch's role if he went down, and I've often though Tiller would be handy as he is quite good overhead. Problem is he doesn't get tried at Willy as a forward so may be some difficulty in adjusting, but he can't look any worse than Lake or Williams down there (he looked better two years ago there than either Lake or Williams did this year).

[Desipura]

I have mentioned it a number of times, I cannot see him getting a game as a forward whilst Welsh is still playing

[boydogs]

Drafted as a forward, played his junior footy as a forward and performed well in his early games in the forward line. He's got a strong pair of hands, quick on the lead and will provide that forward line pressure that Hahn and Harbrow do.
For the first time in a long time we have an embarrasment of riches in regards to tall backmen so why not throw him forward again. Hes certainly a better option then Lake at full forward.

Performed well in his early games in the forward line
Agree, and he has improved since then

He's got a strong pair of hands
Agree

Quick on the lead
Agree

Provide that forward line pressure that Hahn and Harbrow do
Agree - but the trouble will be he is the same sort of player as our existing forwards like Hahn and Welsh.

For the first time in a long time we have an embarrasment of riches in regards to tall backmen
Strongly Agree. Tiller forward and Everitt to the wing I think we should at least have as options for them week to week depending on match ups and other ins/outs, if not permanent roles

Hes certainly a better option then Lake at full forward
At the moment perhaps, but Lake with pace, height and strength being one of the best contested marks in the league is what we are missing, if he could just adjust to playing there. I am not against giving Lake some time forward in dead time ahead of Tiller in an effort to make a forward out of him come finals

Earlier in the year when Murphy and Welsh were out and Hahn was poor Tiller should have been moved, now with Callan, Addison, Williams and Murphy knocking on the door, Welsh and Hahn in the goals and Tiller not having been given the chance to cement himself forward he seems destined to compete with Addison, Everitt and Callan for maybe 1 (on the bench with Lake, Morris, Williams, Hargrave, Gilbee and Harbrow starting) or 2 spots each week in defense.

I suspect he will be dropped after his game on Goodes but it was not the right matchup IMO, I think Eade is doing the right thing looking for alternate roles for our defenders but took a wrong turn last week. Gilbee further up the field and Lake & Williams forward have not worked so far but it seems obvious what Eade is trying to achieve, Tiller forward and Everitt on the wing may be his next attempts

[LostDoggy]

It's days like these where I'm very pleased that none of you yahoos are in control of the football department at WBFC.

[boydogs]

It's days like these where I'm very pleased that none of you yahoos are in control of the football department at WBFC.

Care to elaborate? I'm always up for a debate but I believe in only criticising when you can offer your own ideas in place

[ledge]

It's days like these where I'm very pleased that none of you yahoos are in control of the football department at WBFC.

And you have reasons for this statement to back it up?

[LostDoggy]

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

[comrade]

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

Who would you recommend, though?

Grant clearly needs to increase his fitness base to compete at the highest level, and he isn’t exactly bashing the door down at Willy with his performances either. He’s still at least another pre-season away before being a semi-regular Bulldogs player in my opinion.

Cordy has shown glimpses and has probably exceeded expectations as a 204cm bean pole but he is still probably 2 pre-seasons away from being a regular Bulldogs player – he’ll be worth the wait because he moves like Bobby Murphy but is taller than any key defender.

Liam Jones is still playing school footy.

Boumann is developing as a key defender, though I imagine he’ll play forward as the year progresses. I’m hopeful that he’ll one day play a role like Jarrad Waite or (dare I say it) Chris Tarrant – able to move back or forward dependent on match ups and perform well.

Roughead is currently playing Willy reserves, primarily as a ruckmen but also forward. He’s a fantastic tap ruckmen, with good hands and is improving his work around the ground. He won’t be our power forward, but he’ll be one of the best rucks going around - in a few years.

I guess what I’m getting at is we have tall talent coming through, but they’re all still so raw.

If one of our incumbent forwards goes down and we're in dire need, we’d be better off playing Tiller or Everitt up forward, who have bodies that are more developed and have proven at various times that they are capable at AFL level.

[LostDoggy]

I think most people underestimate Tiller. He would not simply be a clone of Welsh but could add another dimension up forward, particularly when things break down up forward, which unfortunately they will at some perhaps isolated stage this season. He's shown he's a good direct lead, and has confidently kicked goals on debut, and has learnt to add a defensive component to his game. He's the sort of guy who could bob up and kick 4-6 goals one day in a vital game (they're all vital from here on....)
My feeling is that Tiller is actually quite an important utility for the doggies, and should be tried forward again in some capacity to reinforce this, even if not permanently.
On another note: Brian Lake, if thrown forward in desperation would do nothing, but with the luxury of a settled tall back line would kick close to a 100 goals in a full season, IMO....

[Mofra]

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.
So in effect, you're saying we shouldn't experiment with players currently earning a game of senior football, as we have developing talls that are a couple of years away from senior action, but they are being developed as talls at Willy?

Sorry, but a kid playing ok for Willy doesn't actually effect the scoreboard at senior level.

By the way, Tiller is the same height as Pav & Fev, and those "mid-sized" players seem to go ok.

As for the timing, Welsh is out for a week, so the timing is actually fantastic to discuss it as an issue.

[Mofra]

At the moment perhaps, but Lake with pace, height and strength being one of the best contested marks in the league is what we are missing, if he could just adjust to playing there. I am not against giving Lake some time forward in dead time ahead of Tiller in an effort to make a forward out of him come finals
Lake appears to a classic case of a very good player who really only reacts to the game, which makes him a much, much better backman than a forward. Good forwards make multiple leads & demand the ball. Lake takes 3 jogging steps with one hand in the air.

I still prefer him as a backman, especially when he is probably in the top 3 full backs in the game this year.

[boydogs]

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

Good points. I would like to see us at least able to use him like the 'utility' you say he is rather than him being stuck at Williamstown when our backs are firing but the forwards could use him. We don't seem to have produced a player that could play both ends since Chris Grant retired. Every week there seem to be defenders in and out for each other whilst poor performing forwards are untouched, and I wonder whether our inflexibility is causing players in our best 22 to miss.

We have aging mid sized forward line players in Welsh, Aker and Johnno that Tiller may need to step in for as early as next season in addition to the KP sized players coming through.

The timing of the thread probably acknowledges Tiller's poor performance on the weekend and speculates whether this was caused by a poor matchup, and whether sending him forward would be the best option in place. I say maybe not this week with Hahn and Welsh firing, Aker and Johnno our best 2 the previous week and Murphy to come back in but if Tiller was a forward option there would at least be pressure on Josh Hill plus Johnno and Aker to have a better game this week.

[LostDoggy]

So in effect, you're saying we shouldn't experiment with players currently earning a game of senior football, as we have developing talls that are a couple of years away from senior action, but they are being developed as talls at Willy?

Sorry, but a kid playing ok for Willy doesn't actually effect the scoreboard at senior level.

By the way, Tiller is the same height as Pav & Fev, and those "mid-sized" players seem to go ok.

As for the timing, Welsh is out for a week, so the timing is actually fantastic to discuss it as an issue.

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.

[boydogs]

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.

Only comparison made was in terms of height, in referring to a comment made about Tiller being mid-sized

[Twodogs]

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.



Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Tiller's changed his game in the last 2 years, I don't think he looks a natural forward anymore.

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

He's a completely different player now. He's (obviously) switched to a backman and his strength is his appetite for the contest. Often gives second efforts and applies good pressure. He was fantastic in last years finals series because he was able to play on lesser experienced players/players his own size and create a contest. Against Geelong this was great - he brought the ball to the ground almost every time and from there we had the crumbers to pick up the ball and spot up targets.

His weaknesses clearly lie with his skills and reading of the play though. Too many times this year and prior to the Finals series last eyar, he turned the ball over - often under no pressure. He can struggle with his reading of the play/awareness at times too but if given a specific job to stick to a single player, can be OK. His match-up v Goodes was always going to be very difficult for him though. Goodes had him beat in every single area of the game before it started, he's a two time Brownlow medallist.

Still though, I think there could be a position in the side for Tiller and particularly IF Addison/Callan aren't playing well enough. At this stage, Addison is a long way back and Callan was poor against Geelong. He needs to tidy his disposal and not give his direct opponent space (See: EF Syd, PF Cats) to keep his position.

IMO to play as a forward you need to have polish, superior reading of the play and good skills. Unfortunately for Tiller I don't think he has any of the three and is better suited to playing as a backman/stopping his direct opponent.

[ledge]

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

Now thats exactly what weaknesses were pointed out in Grants first game, so we throw him down back too?

[mighty_west]

Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

I know your not comparing their talents, but i don't believe 191cm is a true key position size, but then, what is?, alot of midfielders these days are around the 190 cm.

Fev & Pav are more "power forwards" than true key position players, yes i know they do play key positions, so is debate either way, but one could say Brad Johnson & Russle Robertson are also power forwards without being key position players.

Then on the other end, you had players like Daniel Bandy, tall enough no doubt, but played more as a flanker than a key position player, just because Tiller is a decent height, doesn't mean he can play as a key position player, like with Everitt, whilst he's still developing, plays more as a flanker.

Confused? :D

[LostDoggy]

Does Welsh and Lake being suspended this week change anyone's mind here?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

Now thats exactly what weaknesses were pointed out in Grants first game, so we throw him down back too?

The undeniable difference between the two is that Grant is a natural talented forward with the instincts of where to lead/time his leap and has consistently strong hands out in front on the lead or in a pack situation. Tiller never took pack marks and was inconsistent out on the lead. Grant's second efforts are more to do with his fitness - he regularly gives them early but they die off as the match progresses. Grant's already a very clever player and only needs time so that he can impact games for longer.

There are certain similarities between the two but I think Grant has "forward" written all over him, whereas Tiller showed "bits and pieces" every now and again. I think Tiller is better when he's being led to the ball because he's a better spoiler than mark.

However, that's not to say Tiller should never be played up forward.

[LostDoggy]

Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

Sorry, i will tuck my guns away :)

Pavlich & Fevola are both 100kg or over, what is Tiller barely 88kg?

It's fair enough making a point of the heights being the same, but there is a major reason why Pav & Fev are effective in there respective positions. Both players posses major talent, and can win a game off there own boot. And as i stated above, both have major size about them & are able to boss the forward line when down there.

Sadly i don't see Tiller doing that.

We don't need any lead up forwards, we have them in Johnson, Hahn, Welsh, Aker etc.. we need someone who can push his weight around up there, and go one on one with the best defenders in the comp ie. Scarlett, Glass etc...

Tiller at 88kg & standing at 191cm, won't do that.

He isn't the answer, in my opinion.

[ledge]

Welsh will be Murph if he is ok .

Lake we can put in Williams but not as the fullback i imagine, i can see poor old Morris getting the job.

Tiller might get a go up forward if Murph isnt ready. Not the whole game though unless he does well.

[Go_Dogs]

Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

Exactly. His frame is one that will continue to grow bigger and stronger too (I have said this for a few years, and it has been happening, albeit slowly). By this I mean, his actual body frame. He's a big, wide lad. He works hard in the gym too. Could easily end up Pav or Fev size.

No reason why he can't play KP.

I'm all for giving him another shot in the forward line, and Welsh going out for a week may provide that opportunity. I think Tiller has good enough hands, is good enough below the knees and quick enough to provide a reasonable option.

[Mofra]

It's fair enough making a point of the heights being the same, but there is a major reason why Pav & Fev are effective in there respective positions. Both players posses major talent, and can win a game off there own boot. And as i stated above, both have major size about them & are able to boss the forward line when down there.
Nobody's expecting him to hold down a KPP spot, I believe the query is why he isn't tried forward at times. He's taller than any of the guys who get time down there now and is pretty good overhead so I think a few wouldn't mind seeing him get a chance or two over the next couple of years until Grant & Cordy are regulars in the senior team.


We don't need any lead up forwards, we have them in Johnson, Hahn, Welsh, Aker etc.. we need someone who can push his weight around up there, and go one on one with the best defenders in the comp ie. Scarlett, Glass etc...
All our defenders are lead-up forwards. Minson even mentioned in an interview that he has to be able to lead better, as our forward set-up relies on movement to the ball. The times we kick to a one on one (yes, even Minson) we get a rebound. When we kick to a lead, we are a better chance of creating opportunities.

[LostDoggy]

Does Welsh and Lake being suspended this week change anyone's mind here?

Nah.

Grant for Welsh, Williams for Lake.

[LostDoggy]

By the way, Tiller is the same height as Pav & Fev, and those "mid-sized" players seem to go ok.

No offence, but comparing Tiller - a fringe player at best to two stand-out, elite power forwards in the AFL is nothing short of hilarious.


As for the timing, Welsh is out for a week, so the timing is actually fantastic to discuss it as an issue.

1. Welsh wasn't rubbed out at the time this thread was created.

2. Refer back to my point about "times like these" (read: suspension and injury) we should look to the future.

[LostDoggy]

Who would you recommend, though?

Grant clearly needs to increase his fitness base to compete at the highest level, and he isn’t exactly bashing the door down at Willy with his performances either. He’s still at least another pre-season away before being a semi-regular Bulldogs player in my opinion.

Cordy has shown glimpses and has probably exceeded expectations as a 204cm bean pole but he is still probably 2 pre-seasons away from being a regular Bulldogs player – he’ll be worth the wait because he moves like Bobby Murphy but is taller than any key defender.

Liam Jones is still playing school footy.

Boumann is developing as a key defender, though I imagine he’ll play forward as the year progresses. I’m hopeful that he’ll one day play a role like Jarrad Waite or (dare I say it) Chris Tarrant – able to move back or forward dependent on match ups and perform well.

Roughead is currently playing Willy reserves, primarily as a ruckmen but also forward. He’s a fantastic tap ruckmen, with good hands and is improving his work around the ground. He won’t be our power forward, but he’ll be one of the best rucks going around - in a few years.

I guess what I’m getting at is we have tall talent coming through, but they’re all still so raw.

If one of our incumbent forwards goes down and we're in dire need, we’d be better off playing Tiller or Everitt up forward, who have bodies that are more developed and have proven at various times that they are capable at AFL level.

Very nice to see some well informed logic being added to the discussion. Dante seems to have Tiller in the gun and I'd hope that he sees the cupboard isn't as full as he thought.
Off topic but there is a gap between our depth and the Saints at the moment and that why it's important for us to give some games to the likes of Everitt and Tiller.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Very nice to see some well informed logic being added to the discussion. Dante seems to have Tiller in the gun and I'd hope that he sees the cupboard isn't as full as he thought.
Off topic but there is a gap between our depth and the Saints at the moment and that why it's important for us to give some games to the likes of Everitt and Tiller.

I disagree.

St. Kilda have had no injuries this year, their depth hasn't been tested at all. In previous seasons when it's been put to the test, they've crumbled. They're enjoying the luck of the football gods at the moment but even still, I predict a fall from grace soon.

Their third tier players are average and have been carried by Hayes, Dal Santo, Ball, Riewoldt etc.

Gwilt, McQualter, Geary, Jones, R. Clarke and Eddy have been poor up until this year and whilst Jones might have turned himself into a solid tagger, I personally don't think they have a side capable of toppling the best 2 or 3 at their best. I would rate a fit Geelong, Dogs & Hawks above them.

When the above are put under pressure, including Ray/Gardiner/King, I don't think St. Kilda will be as "impressive" as they were for the first seven or so weeks.

[LostDoggy]

Very nice to see some well informed logic being added to the discussion. Dante seems to have Tiller in the gun and I'd hope that he sees the cupboard isn't as full as he thought.
Off topic but there is a gap between our depth and the Saints at the moment and that why it's important for us to give some games to the likes of Everitt and Tiller.

How would you come to that conclusion?

[LostDoggy]

Dante seems to have Tiller in the gun and I'd hope that he sees the cupboard isn't as full as he thought.

The only way you find out about whether someone can cut it at the top is by giving them protracted opportunities. Someone like Grant may very well flounder at this point in his career, but he will be better for it and better equipped to handle the pressure when he gets more opportunities next year with the imminent departure of Johnson and Akermanis.


Don't get me wrong, if Rodney takes on this idea and gives Tiller a chance up forward, I hope he proves me wrong and kicks a dozen.

[AndrewP6]

I personally don't think they have a side capable of toppling the best 2 or 3 at their best. I would rate a fit Geelong, Dogs & Hawks above them.

When the above are put under pressure, including Ray/Gardiner/King, I don't think St. Kilda will be as "impressive" as they were for the first seven or so weeks.

Big call when they beat us by 28 points a little while back. Yes, we've had injuries but the Saints have been good. That said, I hope they fall over soon. And I think we're not THAT far off them.

[GVGjr]

The only way you find out about whether someone can cut it at the top is by giving them protracted opportunities. Someone like Grant may very well flounder at this point in his career, but he will be better for it and better equipped to handle the pressure when he gets more opportunities next year with the imminent departure of Johnson and Akermanis.


Don't get me wrong, if Rodney takes on this idea and gives Tiller a chance up forward, I hope he proves me wrong and kicks a dozen.

I know what you are saying but I agree with Comrade that Grant isn't anywhere near fit enough to play a lot of senior football at this moment. Given he had OP last year that should be no real surprise but it does increase the chance of injury if pushed in high intensity games. Grants coming along nicely but I do believe that Tiller is the better senior prospect at the moment.

[Mofra]

No offence, but comparing Tiller - a fringe player at best to two stand-out, elite power forwards in the AFL is nothing short of hilarious.
Why? You said he was mid-sized. He isn't. It's a statement of both size & fact. He would be taller than any other forward we are likely to have there this week, and Grant & Cordy aren't ready yet so he's likely to be taller than any short term prospect too.


1. Welsh wasn't rubbed out at the time this thread was created.

2. Refer back to my point about "times like these" (read: suspension and injury) we should look to the future.
1. Proving the timing was perfect - contingency plans are important as no team has their best 22 on the paddock every week.

2. The youth obsession shouldn't come at the expense of team performance. If it did, we'd drop everyone over 25 as part of "development". Fact is we are contenders now and should put the best team on the park every week.

[dog town]

I disagree.

St. Kilda have had no injuries this year, their depth hasn't been tested at all. In previous seasons when it's been put to the test, they've crumbled. They're enjoying the luck of the football gods at the moment but even still, I predict a fall from grace soon.

Their third tier players are average and have been carried by Hayes, Dal Santo, Ball, Riewoldt etc.

Gwilt, McQualter, Geary, Jones, R. Clarke and Eddy have been poor up until this year and whilst Jones might have turned himself into a solid tagger, I personally don't think they have a side capable of toppling the best 2 or 3 at their best. I would rate a fit Geelong, Dogs & Hawks above them.

When the above are put under pressure, including Ray/Gardiner/King, I don't think St. Kilda will be as "impressive" as they were for the first seven or so weeks. The so called depth of St Kilda and Hawthorn is an illusion. They play a system that makes it easy for players to slot in and play a role that helps the side. It is a completely different style of footy where players can work in with 3 or 4 other players at any one time. You wont see many of the players from those 2 clubs having to go one on one for extended periods of play. Very rarely do you see a flat out transition from defence against either of those clubs as wel so you dont see guys like Ray, Gwilt, Eddy, Clarke and McQualter getting run both ways one on one. Obviously both of those clubs have some amazing individual players but they have found a style that hides the weaknesses in those sides. Thats not having a shot at those clubs because its a very smart way to go about it. The players from those clubs have really bought into what there coaches want from them.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The so called depth of St Kilda and Hawthorn is an illusion. They play a system that makes it easy for players to slot in and play a role that helps the side. It is a completely different style of footy where players can work in with 3 or 4 other players at any one time. You wont see many of the players from those 2 clubs having to go one on one for extended periods of play. Very rarely do you see a flat out transition from defence against either of those clubs as wel so you dont see guys like Ray, Gwilt, Eddy, Clarke and McQualter getting run both ways one on one. Obviously both of those clubs have some amazing individual players but they have found a style that hides the weaknesses in those sides. Thats not having a shot at those clubs because its a very smart way to go about it. The players from those clubs have really bought into what there coaches want from them.

Top post and you're right on the money.

The question lies for the rest; how do you expose their weakest 6 or 7 players?

It'll be very interesting when they play a much more even Geelong, who don't have too many glaring weaknesses. When we played the Saints, we were horribly out of form and coming off shortened breaks. However - I would think both the Cats and Dogs should really be able to expose their weaker links.

To breaking down the Saints, is it more a case of restricting Riewoldt/Hayes/Dal Santo or exposing the other players we've discussed?

[Twodogs]

Sorry, i will tuck my guns away :)


Thanks-it was getting a bit hard to see with all the flashes and haze from the shots.:D




Pavlich & Fevola are both 100kg or over, what is Tiller barely 88kg?

It's fair enough making a point of the heights being the same, but there is a major reason why Pav & Fev are effective in there respective positions. Both players posses major talent, and can win a game off there own boot. And as i stated above, both have major size about them & are able to boss the forward line when down there.

Sadly i don't see Tiller doing that.

We don't need any lead up forwards, we have them in Johnson, Hahn, Welsh, Aker etc.. we need someone who can push his weight around up there, and go one on one with the best defenders in the comp ie. Scarlett, Glass etc...

Tiller at 88kg & standing at 191cm, won't do that.

He isn't the answer, in my opinion.

Fair point about relative weights and also Tiller isnt ever going to be a "big grab" mark taker like Fev or Pav either. If he were to play in attack he would be more your lead up option.


I dont reckon Tiller has that wide of a turning circle. Earlier in his career he would lose touch with his opposition forward and take time finding him again so maybe that's what's giving him a rep for not being able to turn quickly.

[dog town]

Top post and you're right on the money.

The question lies for the rest; how do you expose their weakest 6 or 7 players?

It'll be very interesting when they play a much more even Geelong, who don't have too many glaring weaknesses. When we played the Saints, we were horribly out of form and coming off shortened breaks. However - I would think both the Cats and Dogs should really be able to expose their weaker links.

To breaking down the Saints, is it more a case of restricting Riewoldt/Hayes/Dal Santo or exposing the other players we've discussed? Yeah it's an interesting one. It is probably not as simple as that.

We certainly need to find a way through the zone the saints are employing. Having a fit Murphy will help with that IMO as we didn't have a heap of options last time we came up against them. I think if we can get quality ball through that zone then our mix of forwards can certainly expose a few of the players in that back 6.

We actually beat the saints for contested ball and centre clearances so I think a lot rests with Eade and co in trying to find a chink in the way the saints are playing. Having Murphy, Welsh, Cooney and Aker going full tilt will give them more options with that. We matched them in the second half and that was when Cooney started to get a bit of touch back. He draws players to him which opens those zones right up.

Riewoldt got too many one out contests against Morris last time. Much of that was due to us not being able to breach that zone. Essendon opened them up through the middle but they are a bit quicker than us.

I think it could be a bit of a domino effect. If we can bring a couple of pieces of their jigsaw undone then I think it could all come tumbling down. Get them to change plan a) and I dont know how they will respond. I saw them live against the dons and really a more seasoned team would have executed them to the tune of 6 or 7 goals such was their dominance around the contest.

[LostDoggy]

Lake has been given license to go forward. Problem is he is mental. ;)

Tiller could be tried in games were we are getting plenty of the ball just not scoring. Just to shake it up a bit in a Hunter type option. Welsh is out this week and we will no doubt play with a smaller forward line at time. Especially with Murphy probably only playing on the ground at about 50%. Can't see why Tiller could not sneek in for some forward rotation time.