Player Loans

[Drunken Bum]

I am pretty sure that there is a system set up for them in soccer and yes i know we will never have player loans as such in the AFL but it has me thinking will we ever see the situation arising here. Bear with me for a second as i try to explain what i am talking about.

Say for example a player like Pav, with Freo being unlikely to challenge for the flag or even the finals next year and Footscray beng around the mark but maybe a quality KPF short of a flag. Is it out of the realms of possibility for us to approach Freo and Pav and offer them something to trade Pav to us for a year with the guarantee that we would trade him back the following year? There is something in it for all parties, Freo of course loses their best player for a year but they would get some draft picks/player in return and of course is always the possibility that could lose him through injury anyway and they will not be close to a flag anyway. Pav gets an opportunity to push for a flag, something that may never happen in his time at Freo and the Dogs would be a real shot at a flag and would get a massive membership boost for that year also i would imagine.

Of course there would be some difficulty in working out all the details involved but every party in it benefits from it in someway. I dont think Pav would be seen as a mercenary and i doubt even Freo supporters would begrudge him the opportunity to play in a flag. It would be a big risk for us but one given our history and how difficult it is to win a flag that i believe would be an acceptable risk to take.

I know i am dreaming and that it is never going to happen but is it really that illogical?
What are all your thoughts on something like this?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

DB, a nice hypothetical thread for debate.

Personally I would be against it, for the reason that a player could come in for a short period and gain an insight into the club which could be then used against them when the player returns to his original club.

I'm no soccer fan and therefore don't profess to know the workings of player loans, however aren't the majority of player loans to either clubs in different leagues or in different divisions, or else have clauses that prevent them from playing against their club of origin?

[AndrewP6]

I know i am dreaming and that it is never going to happen but is it really that illogical?
What are all your thoughts on something like this?

Sorry Drunken Bum... never going to happen. Yes, it is illogical. Then again, it is used in a game where you can play for eighty minutes and no one scores! :) If Pav happened to be on our premiership winning side, how would we feel about giving him back?

I think the system used in soccer is when a player gets loaned to a team from another division/competition. So if Pav wanted to play with the Manangatang 2s, he could...

[Drunken Bum]

If Pav happened to be on our premiership winning side, how would we feel about giving him back?

If he got us a flag he would be a hero of the club regardless, i would respect him for sticking with Freo all the time he did and taking an opportunity for himself, to help our club at the same time and for also not turning his back completely on Freo.
Also i am talking about certain situations here as well, like in this specific case we are talking about here, it is no major loss to Freo to be perfectly honest, they would be gaining say some draft picks, Pav gets an opportunity to play in a flag, we get a chance to win a flag, when he leaves we have Cordy, Grant, Jones, Boumann etc, having a year under the influence of one of the comps best KPP and being ready to come on a bit more when he leaves, if all it was to take would be sacraficing some draft picks is it not worth it? obviously it may set us back a little bit, in regards to our future, i am just putting the question out there, is it worth it for a club such as ours that has struggled so long for any success?

[AndrewP6]

If he got us a flag he would be a hero of the club regardless, i would respect him for sticking with Freo all the time he did and taking an opportunity for himself, to help our club at the same time and for also not turning his back completely on Freo.
Also i am talking about certain situations here as well, like in this specific case we are talking about here, it is no major loss to Freo to be perfectly honest, they would be gaining say some draft picks, Pav gets an opportunity to play in a flag, we get a chance to win a flag, when he leaves we have Cordy, Grant, Jones, Boumann etc, having a year under the influence of one of the comps best KPP and being ready to come on a bit more when he leaves, if all it was to take would be sacraficing some draft picks is it not worth it? obviously it may set us back a little bit, in regards to our future, i am just putting the question out there, is it worth it for a club such as ours that has struggled so long for any success?

Just would seem a bit hollow to me. Would be like a quick-fix, and I'd rather have our blokes get it done (or not!) To win with a player who isn't ours, and then to have to give him back... For mine, a player is with a club 110%...not just on loan.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I am pretty sure that there is a system set up for them in soccer and yes i know we will never have player loans as such in the AFL but it has me thinking will we ever see the situation arising here. Bear with me for a second as i try to explain what i am talking about.

Say for example a player like Pav, with Freo being unlikely to challenge for the flag or even the finals next year and Footscray beng around the mark but maybe a quality KPF short of a flag. Is it out of the realms of possibility for us to approach Freo and Pav and offer them something to trade Pav to us for a year with the guarantee that we would trade him back the following year? There is something in it for all parties, Freo of course loses their best player for a year but they would get some draft picks/player in return and of course is always the possibility that could lose him through injury anyway and they will not be close to a flag anyway. Pav gets an opportunity to push for a flag, something that may never happen in his time at Freo and the Dogs would be a real shot at a flag and would get a massive membership boost for that year also i would imagine.

Of course there would be some difficulty in working out all the details involved but every party in it benefits from it in someway. I dont think Pav would be seen as a mercenary and i doubt even Freo supporters would begrudge him the opportunity to play in a flag. It would be a big risk for us but one given our history and how difficult it is to win a flag that i believe would be an acceptable risk to take.

I know i am dreaming and that it is never going to happen but is it really that illogical?
What are all your thoughts on something like this?

Oh god I hope not. Why? Well the AFL is vastly different to the EPL and football (as in soccer) setup in Europe. Also I would be scared that clubs with influence would be the ones that would benefit the most out of such a system, say for example those with media muscle or that could scratch other clubs backs the hardest ;), and the gap would widen between the haves and have nots. Imagine that we made a GF against Geelong with the current squads but they were able to snare Pav :eek:

The only possible system that I could see sense in and that could work would be an ability to loan players from the SANFL, VFL, WAFL etc. In an extreme situation where a club is decimated by injuries of a certain player type (such as ruckman) or massively down on numbers (such as I think Essendon were at one point last year) it would be a sensible idea.

This system also has its merits as it gives fringe players not on AFL lists (and you'd suggest they'd be more mature age players) an opportunity to prove their worth. I know Paul Thomas (captain of Central District in the SANFL) is an AFL hard luck story who won the Magarey, got claimed by Essendon, played over a third of the season, was voted best first year player, and then was inexplicably delisted at the end of the year. He has continued to carve up in the SANFL and would have been a perfect candidate to be loaned and may give him another shot to cement a spot on an AFL list.

[1eyedog]

Sounds good when we get Pav, but not so good when Collingwood gets Griffen (and he does a knee!)

[Drunken Bum]

Oh god I hope not. Why? Well the AFL is vastly different to the EPL and football (as in soccer) setup in Europe. Also I would be scared that clubs with influence would be the ones that would benefit the most out of such a system, say for example those with media muscle or that could scratch other clubs backs the hardest ;), and the gap would widen between the haves and have nots. Imagine that we made a GF against Geelong with the current squads but they were able to snare Pav :eek:

i dont think i explained properly what i was trying to say, i wasnt talking about player loans as such, like the example i am using Pav would be a Footscray player for that year, he would not be on the Freo books it would in effect be a one year trade with the guarantee that we would trade him back at the end of the year. I do not see there being many situations where it would be likely to occur for many reasons, but the example i put forward would be one of the more workable ones, for example Pav being at Freo for a long time, having seen no success and not likely to in the near future, Freo not being seen as a challenger for next year and the chance to pick up a decent player or some draft picks for the cost of being without their best player for a year, a year that they are not going to challenge anyway(probably get better draft picks too by finishing lower) could set them up for thier short mid term future. and then you have us, a club so desperate for a flag, being so close yet maybe just that one piece missing, prepared to take a gamble and try something from left field. It may get viewed a little like Nths first flag when they used the 10yr rule to their advantage, but to but honest i dont give a shit how the flag gets here as long as it isnt cheating. I would be happy to go and cheer Pav as he boarded the plane back to Fremantle, and he would always have a soft spot in my heart afterwards if he could pull it off.

[The Adelaide Connection]

i dont think i explained properly what i was trying to say, i wasnt talking about player loans as such, like the example i am using Pav would be a Footscray player for that year, he would not be on the Freo books it would in effect be a one year trade with the guarantee that we would trade him back at the end of the year. I do not see there being many situations where it would be likely to occur for many reasons, but the example i put forward would be one of the more workable ones, for example Pav being at Freo for a long time, having seen no success and not likely to in the near future, Freo not being seen as a challenger for next year and the chance to pick up a decent player or some draft picks for the cost of being without their best player for a year, a year that they are not going to challenge anyway(probably get better draft picks too by finishing lower) could set them up for thier short mid term future. and then you have us, a club so desperate for a flag, being so close yet maybe just that one piece missing, prepared to take a gamble and try something from left field. It may get viewed a little like Nths first flag when they used the 10yr rule to their advantage, but to but honest i dont give a shit how the flag gets here as long as it isnt cheating. I would be happy to go and cheer Pav as he boarded the plane back to Fremantle, and he would always have a soft spot in my heart afterwards if he could pull it off.

No I understood that you mean a loan (not a full trade) but disagree for the reasons I mentioned. Clubs that could scratch other clubs backs the hardest would be the ones to benefit and we don't have the financial muscle to be a player in that regard. It would make the gap between rich and poor wider.

But as mentioned I like the idea of being able to do it with players not on AFL lists.

[Drunken Bum]

Sounds good when we get Pav, but not so good when Collingwood gets Griffen (and he does a knee!)

If we were down the bottom of the ladder and a basket case and Collingwood offered us their 1st pick in the draft or a decent player to have Griffen for a year, because they thought he was the missing ingredient for a flag and the guarantee that he would be traded back the following year would that make any difference?

The biggest problem probably would be the possibility that the player himself might not agree to come back.

All this was just a thought and figured it may make for some good discussion, FWIW i cannot ever see it happening, but thought the idea may have had some merit

[ledge]

How about the idea of being able to do it at finals time, clubs who dont make it offer players up for grabs so they get finals experience and the club gets a certain money return?
Like its said all hypothetical but good thought.

[The Adelaide Connection]

If we were down the bottom of the ladder and a basket case and Collingwood offered us their 1st pick in the draft or a decent player to have Griffen for a year, because they thought he was the missing ingredient for a flag and the guarantee that he would be traded back the following year would that make any difference?

The biggest problem probably would be the possibility that the player himself might not agree to come back.

All this was just a thought and figured it may make for some good discussion, FWIW i cannot ever see it happening, but thought the idea may have had some merit

It is a great hypothetical and a good thread topic. I think the AFL should seriously consider it for those NOT currently on an AFL list.

[lemmon]

I wouldn't be a fan. I think a massive part of footy is the loyalty of players to their clubs and the supporters growing to love their own but hate other teams players. With short term loans we would see a lot of this taken out of the game and clubs would lose even more of their tradition and teams would take on more of a franchise feel.
Another point against would be similiar to New South Wales drafting McCullum in for the T/20 final, imagine if prior to the Grand Final or final series a club drafted in Chris Judd.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I wouldn't be a fan. I think a massive part of footy is the loyalty of players to their clubs and the supporters growing to love their own but hate other teams players. With short term loans we would see a lot of this taken out of the game and clubs would lose even more of their tradition and teams would take on more of a franchise feel.
Another point against would be similiar to New South Wales drafting McCullum in for the T/20 final, imagine if prior to the Grand Final or final series a club drafted in Chris Judd.

Agree and I think nearly everyone does, but how would you feel about the non-AFL players coming in on short term loans? Obviously it would only happen in dire circumstances

[Drunken Bum]

I wouldn't be a fan. I think a massive part of footy is the loyalty of players to their clubs and the supporters growing to love their own but hate other teams players. With short term loans we would see a lot of this taken out of the game and clubs would lose even more of their tradition and teams would take on more of a franchise feel.
Another point against would be similiar to New South Wales drafting McCullum in for the T/20 final, imagine if prior to the Grand Final or final series a club drafted in Chris Judd.

Well there is obviously no opportunity for players to be brought in mid season or just before finals under the current rules, i am not proposing any changes to the current rules, it was just a suggestion that could benefit all 3 parties equally under the current rules in place.
ie we trade player/picks to Freo for Pav on the proviso we trade him back the following year, say for example our first pick or two or maybe a pick and a decent player who while being handy for us but isnt what we consider to be essential for us winning a flag but might be someone that would be handy to freo in the short midterm, then after year is up we trade Pav back to Freo for their last pick, Is it likely to happen? No, of course it isnt, is it worth taking under consideration for the opportunity to win a flag? Shit i would look at every possible way that might give us a chance to do that. It is by no means guaranteed to work either, he could get injured for the year in his first game, but i believe it would be a risk worth taking. Does anyone here seriously doubt that we wouldnt be a genuine flag threat with Pav thrown into our side? Is all hypothetical of course because it will never happen.
For those talking about loyalty and building a flag ourselves etc, i am sure if it was Pavs last year and he was still performing to a high standard and he decided to have one shot at the flag by coming to say us who has a deficiency in the area he can provide, there would be no problems with that. Is that really that far removed from what i have suggested?

[boydogs]

Well there is obviously no opportunity for players to be brought in mid season or just before finals under the current rules, i am not proposing any changes to the current rules, it was just a suggestion that could benefit all 3 parties equally under the current rules in place.
ie we trade player/picks to Freo for Pav on the proviso we trade him back the following year, say for example our first pick or two or maybe a pick and a decent player who while being handy for us but isnt what we consider to be essential for us winning a flag but might be someone that would be handy to freo in the short midterm, then after year is up we trade Pav back to Freo for their last pick, Is it likely to happen? No, of course it isnt, is it worth taking under consideration for the opportunity to win a flag? Shit i would look at every possible way that might give us a chance to do that. It is by no means guaranteed to work either, he could get injured for the year in his first game, but i believe it would be a risk worth taking. Does anyone here seriously doubt that we wouldnt be a genuine flag threat with Pav thrown into our side? Is all hypothetical of course because it will never happen.
For those talking about loyalty and building a flag ourselves etc, i am sure if it was Pavs last year and he was still performing to a high standard and he decided to have one shot at the flag by coming to say us who has a deficiency in the area he can provide, there would be no problems with that. Is that really that far removed from what i have suggested?

The extension of this would be to say lets trade Tim Callan for Sam Fisher this week only because the Saints need a small defender and we need a tall defender against this weeks opponent. Yes those players are not equals and our opponents this week are not tall, but you see what I am saying. We WOOFers support the club as a unit of players, staff and fans within the western community and not as a function of a bank account and a decision maker from week to week. For mine, having a player who is from another club and returning to that club crosses the line purely from a supporters perspective, let alone issues with the payment or trade for a short term result, restrictions in place to provide fair access to this across the 16 clubs, agreement with the development and injury management of the player between the clubs, performance of the player against their originating club and integration of the player within the new playing group

I do think we should go in hard for Pavlich to be traded to us at the end of the year though

[Drunken Bum]

The extension of this would be to say lets trade Tim Callan for Sam Fisher this week only because the Saints need a small defender and we need a tall defender against this weeks opponent. Yes those players are not equals and our opponents this week are not tall, but you see what I am saying.

Thats ridiculous, there are no rules in place to do any such thing nor will there ever be(i hope) I think i definitely used the wrong name for the thread title and people are focussed on the word LOAN far too much, my mistake in hindsight can we all get past the word loan for a min and stop looking at it as such

We WOOFers support the club as a unit of players, staff and fans within the western community and not as a function of a bank account and a decision maker from week to week.

"We WOOFers"??? Apart from speaking for everyone, which i dont believe you are qualified to do, whilst at the same time seemingly having a subtle dig at me, i agree with you 100% Under what i have proposed Pav would be a part of the club, albeit short term, is it really that far removed from trading for a solid 25-26yr ruckman for a year or two to carry the ruck while say for example we waited for Cordy and Roughead to mature(yes i know we dont need that but pretend we dont have Minson and Hudson) with no intention of keeping beyond that and then trading him elsewhere if we can get a trade?
What is it with the week to week stuff? I am talking about a trade here for a year that could be of possible benefit to all parties involved


For mine, having a player who is from another club and returning to that club crosses the line purely from a supporters perspective, let alone issues with the payment or trade for a short term result

If it was to bring a premiership to the club, for the cost of a draft pick or 2 or maybe a middle tier player as well, would that cross the line from a supporters perspective?
As far as the issues of payment, i never suggested any payments to the club, for starters Freo wouldnt need money that we dont have, and there are many trades/drafts purely for short term result, some work others dont.
FWIW if it was to bring us a flag maybe the benefit wouldnt just be short term, membership and sponsership, media exposure would all be up, and when Pav left we would be in the position of having, Grant, Cordy, etc all a year closer to being able to step in.

restrictions in place to provide fair access to this across the 16 clubs, agreement with the development and injury management of the player between the clubs, performance of the player against their originating club and integration of the player within the new playing group

of course these would be the major problems arising and more than likely the reason we will never see something like this happening, all i am saying is that those issues would not be insurmountable given the right conditions, and i think the one i proposed would be about as close to ideal conditions if something like this ever were to happen.

I do think we should go in hard for Pavlich to be traded to us at the end of the year though

As much as i would like to see it happen it aint gonna happen, there is probably just as much chance of what i suggested happening as there is of us snaring Pav for the rest of his career, probably more.
We can always dream though i spose :)

[soupman]

Um, no.

The loan system used in soccer involves a club being able to loan a player to any club in any division (including their own) for periods ranging from a month to a year. The receiving club may compensate the other club by paying part or all of their wage for the duration of the loan or paying a lump fee for the loan, and the key for the home club is that the player gets to go somewhere where they may get more first team experience and the club gets some monetary relief.

In the AFL it wouldn't be allowed or work because:

-The AFL values an even competition, and if the poor teams loan their best players to the good teams the gap widens substantially and facilitates legit tanking.

-The AFL is a very different environment to soccer. Players seem to stay with one club for much longer, and be less willing to move.

-Since teams won't want to loan out their best players so they don't lose too much, they will look to loan out the fringe developing players like a Guy O'Keefe or Sam Reid to get some AFL experience at a Melbourne or Richmond. The issue here is that why would Melbourne and Richmond want to put the development games and time into two players that they lose at the end of the year, when they can play guys like Marric and Hislop and potentially get 10 years out of them.

-Imagine the supporters reactions if a Rohan Smith or Chris Grant was loaned to Collingwood in 2003 (when we were shit and they made the granny). Wouldn't their status amongst the supporters decline drastically.

[boydogs]

We WOOFers support the club as a unit of players, staff and fans within the western community and not as a function of a bank account and a decision maker from week to week.

"We WOOFers"??? Apart from speaking for everyone, which i dont believe you are qualified to do, whilst at the same time seemingly having a subtle dig at me, i agree with you 100%

Sorry it came across like that, just trying to articulate why it doesn't feel right when the player is still connected to another club. I'm not looking down on you at all for suggesting a Pavlich loan, I can see it comes from wanting the club to succeed and is a worthwhile debate.

Another thought, not sure if Pav would want to uproot himself from Perth to Melbourne just for 12 months, thats one thing a trade rather than a loan would have on its side

[LostDoggy]

I like the idea....

We can hire Buddy for a year and in exchange we can give them Cam Wight? Sounds like a fair deal.

[Drunken Bum]

Sorry it came across like that, just trying to articulate why it doesn't feel right when the player is still connected to another club. I'm not looking down on you at all for suggesting a Pavlich loan, I can see it comes from wanting the club to succeed and is a worthwhile debate.

Another thought, not sure if Pav would want to uproot himself from Perth to Melbourne just for 12 months, thats one thing a trade rather than a loan would have on its side

Sorry gogriff, i didnt mean to come across so harsh, have been stuck in my room for a week and a half first sick then waiting on results of piggy flu, so been a bit narky

[Drunken Bum]

Um, no.

The loan system used in soccer involves a club being able to loan a player to any club in any division (including their own) for periods ranging from a month to a year. The receiving club may compensate the other club by paying part or all of their wage for the duration of the loan or paying a lump fee for the loan, and the key for the home club is that the player gets to go somewhere where they may get more first team experience and the club gets some monetary relief.

In the AFL it wouldn't be allowed or work because:

-The AFL values an even competition, and if the poor teams loan their best players to the good teams the gap widens substantially and facilitates legit tanking.

-The AFL is a very different environment to soccer. Players seem to stay with one club for much longer, and be less willing to move.

-Since teams won't want to loan out their best players so they don't lose too much, they will look to loan out the fringe developing players like a Guy O'Keefe or Sam Reid to get some AFL experience at a Melbourne or Richmond. The issue here is that why would Melbourne and Richmond want to put the development games and time into two players that they lose at the end of the year, when they can play guys like Marric and Hislop and potentially get 10 years out of them.

-Imagine the supporters reactions if a Rohan Smith or Chris Grant was loaned to Collingwood in 2003 (when we were shit and they made the granny). Wouldn't their status amongst the supporters decline drastically.

I wish people would read the posts instead of just the thread title, it was a mistake for me to call the thread player loans, i have am not suggesting player loans as they work in soccer, at the time seemed like a reasonable way to title it but all it has done is change everyones focus completely.

just on your scenario with Grant and Smith. Say in Grants last 3-4yrs and he was still playing good football, we were down the bottom and a complete basket case seemingly unlikely to be in flag contention for another 5yrs at least and Melbourne for example offered us a decent player who would be around for a while and their 1st draft pick to have Grant for a year because they thought he might be the difference between them winning a flag or not. Would you really begrudge him the opportunity to play in a premiership whilst at the same time helping our side rebuild quicker?
How much was Monty's status amongst supporters lowered after being traded to Port for a much longer period of time winning a flag and then returning to the Dogs?
Yes he had no say in his being traded it was a club decision, even so i am not sure that i agree that Grants status would be lowered at all in most supporters eyes, and it would also be a situation that would be highly beneficial to Footscray as well. Does it help if i was to say that we should rule out any of the traditionally stronger clubs, ie Collingwood, Carlsum, the Bummers etc and only a club that had been success starved for while(excluding Ninthmond of course)