Our Best Forward Set-Up (Current List)

[Mofra]

Obviously in the wake of the Collingwood loss, there has been a fair bit of discussion on set-ups, match-ups, tactics etc.

An area that I found a bit concerning was our forwardline set-up. Despite managing more scoring shots than Collingwood, we did have quite a few shots from out wide, or rushed shots that were low percentage (Higgins' set shot from a sharp angle helped us in this regard).

Given our forwardline was smashed in the QF last year, St Kilda strangled us and pressure sides do manage to clog up our forwardline, I was wondering what people's thoughts were on our best 6 in the F50 and how we will rotate through there during the game?

FWIW I'd have as a starting line-up:

F: Hahn Welsh Higgins
HF: Hill Murphy Johnson

Rotating through (in order of time spent there): Minson (deep), Gia (HF), midfield group with exceptions of Eagleton (not effective as a forward) and Picken to follow his opponent primarily.

Welsh would play as a more of a traditional FF role, Higgins is still not 100% so I'd expect him to play forward more than midfield. Hahn & Hill probably play from a similar spot, although I like Hill a little further out so he can use his endurance a little more, and his creative crumbing goals seem to occur when he's running towards our goals rather than the ball carrier.

Murphy should be fit for finals (as will Gia) and his forte is marking so he plays the lead up role. Johnson has been almost a lone hand on the HF line of late so having a Murphy & Hill (and Hahn at times) for a chop out will help him and add to the unpredictability of our set-up.

I may have been effceted by recenty bias in terms of stacking our HF line with players who are good overhead, anyone prefer a different set-up?

[LostDoggy]

I think your suggested set-up is about right.

The issue is how we come into the forward line and perhaps at times we need to be more patient. Just bombing to a postion 45 metres from goal is not ideal no matter who is playing in the forward line.

We often outdo ourselves when we gain possession from a turnover and find that our players were back behind the ball and not able to transition quickly enough. This leaves us with sometimes only 2 players in the forward 50.

The traditional 6 man forward line is in fact rarely played and many sides play an additonal player across half-back. This requires us to hold back and to be very selective as to how we go in there.

[mighty_west]

It's an interesting one, everyone keeps going on about the Dogs and lack of true key forwards won't take them deep into September.

Looking back on last weeks game, Collingwood smashed us all over the ground, and for the first 3 quarters, not one of their key forwards troubled the scoreboard, in the final term, we got our game going, we worked alot harder, and came back to neally pinch it, again, without key forwards, and Collingwood in return in that final term, no goals from key forwards.

I got the feeling throughout the game whilst being there watching, i don't really think going by the way we were playing and delivery to the forward line, key forwards probably wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway, if you're not working hard enough and are beaten around the ground, key forwards won;t make alot of a difference imo.

You look at other sides, with key forwards, having watched Brisbane a few times as an example with Brown & Bradshaw, especially last season, and games when they did get belted in the middle & around the ground, the key forwards didn't have anywhere near enough of an impact to turn the game.

That final v the Hawks last year, would key forwards have helped? not if our work rate as the same that night.

[LostDoggy]

I know its not really part of todays set ups with 18 man zoning and so on. But what about leaving someone like a Scotty Welsh, Mitch Hahn or a Will Minson in the goal square. Then we can bomb it long from a quick break in defence and still have the running players like Higgins and co to rove off the tall forwards.

[bornadog]

I know its not really part of todays set ups with 18 man zoning and so on. But what about leaving someone like a Scotty Welsh, Mitch Hahn or a Will Minson in the goal square. Then we can bomb it long from a quick break in defence and still have the running players like Higgins and co to rove off the tall forwards.

I tend to agree that Welsh should be playing more of a traditional FF. His defensive skills are good as well, as he does chase and harass out of the forward line.

However, I do prefer Aker in a forward pocket as well from time to time, and perhaps he and Higgins can share some of the midfield work.

[Mofra]

That final v the Hawks last year, would key forwards have helped? not if our work rate as the same that night.
KPP may have provided a get out option, but when you're getting smashed through the middle and the opposiiton is zoning well, they aren;t going to be the difference.


However, I do prefer Aker in a forward pocket as well from time to time, and perhaps he and Higgins can share some of the midfield work.
He's the one I forgot about, probably because he's spending more time in the middle. We have quite a few that can rotate forward which is a plus. I deliberately left Will out of the starting 6 simply because as his ruckwork is improving he's likely to spend less time down in the forwardline (he'd have to be less than 50% already).

[boydogs]

My 6:

F: Aker Welsh Higgins
HF: Hahn Murphy Johnson

Hill struggles in congestion and would be better up the ground. Murphy is very important to us up forward and I hope he starts and stays there on Friday. Smalls Aker and Higgins in the pockets with their kicking skills leading and crumbing, Hahn and Johnson pushing up taking strong grabs and Welsh in the goalsquare

Very experienced and classy group. Add in Minson rotating through and the height and strength looks good. Could probably do with some extra pace - if some of the defenders currently out of the side in Tiller, Everitt, Callan and Addison come back in I wonder if Harbrow will get the 'defensive forward' role at some stage. Quality opposition sides have been getting a lot of rebound out of defense against us and I'm not sure Harbrow's value up forward has been covered with him now in defense. Murphy up forward again would also help in this area.

[LostDoggy]

A good question. When I look at that forward line it does not look as good as 2006, with Robbins, Grant, an in-form Hahn, a pre-knee Murphy, a pacier Johnson .. etc. But that's off topic...

I think Hill has got more upside and will need a bit more time learning his craft.

[Mantis]

My 6:

F: Aker Welsh Higgins
HF: Hahn Murphy Johnson

Hill struggles in congestion and would be better up the ground. Murphy is very important to us up forward and I hope he starts and stays there on Friday. Smalls Aker and Higgins in the pockets with their kicking skills leading and crumbing, Hahn and Johnson pushing up taking strong grabs and Welsh in the goalsquare

Very experienced and classy group. Add in Minson rotating through and the height and strength looks good. Could probably do with some extra pace - if some of the defenders currently out of the side in Tiller, Everitt, Callan and Addison come back in I wonder if Harbrow will get the 'defensive forward' role at some stage. Quality opposition sides have been getting a lot of rebound out of defense against us and I'm not sure Harbrow's value up forward has been covered with him now in defense. Murphy up forward again would also help in this area.

Murf is one of the worst in our team at applying defensive pressure.

Agree that this is an area of concern as the amount of 'clean ball' the Collingwood defenders provided up field last week was alarming.

[comrade]

Murf is one of the worst in our team at applying defensive pressure.

Agree that this is an area of concern as the amount of 'clean ball' the Collingwood defenders provided up field last week was alarming.

Lack of forward pressure is one of the remaining glaring deficiencies of our team – how do we turn it around so we’re somewhere near the level of the completion benchmark in St Kilda?

We get the ball into our 50 so much now, through a very good midfield and rebounding defensive group, but it’s frustrating to see it hit the half forward line and come straight back once the ball hits the ground.

Is it a case of just lacking the players – should we be targeting a Cyril Rioli/Alwyn Davey type in the draft who adds pace to the team and who’s primary job is to creature defensive pressure in our forward 50?

Or is it just attitude? Should Rocket place a higher premium on guys who are relentless in their chasing and tackling when the ball hits the ground in our attacking arc?

[Mantis]

Is it a case of just lacking the players – should we be targeting a Cyril Rioli/Alwyn Davey type in the draft who adds pace to the team and who’s primary job is to creature defensive pressure in our forward 50?

We have both Lynch & Harbrow on our list who were drafted with this role in mind. Obviously neither are playing this small forward role at the moment so we probably do need to find someone who can/ will.


Or is it just attitude? Should Rocket place a higher premium on guys who are relentless in their chasing and tackling when the ball hits the ground in our attacking arc?

During the pre-season we were told that our new forward coach Paul Williams had very strong views on defensive pressure and that our forwards would get much better at applying it. As yet I would say that it hasn't really improved so I'm not sure where the problem lies, I suspect it is the players not carrying out the coaches instructions, but obviously am not privvy to what these are.

[Mofra]

Is it a case of just lacking the players – should we be targeting a Cyril Rioli/Alwyn Davey type in the draft who adds pace to the team and who’s primary job is to creature defensive pressure in our forward 50?

Or is it just attitude? Should Rocket place a higher premium on guys who are relentless in their chasing and tackling when the ball hits the ground in our attacking arc?
In terms of the type of player, this is probably the reason why we are hanging onto Lynch, and why Stack was promoted for a taste & is part of the long term development plans - I believe they can play the role, even with Stack being a bit stronger than your typical defensive forward whippet.

I still think a forward's primary role is to kick goals & create opportunities, so I'm not sure placing a higher premium on defensive work in the forward set-up will not hurt us on the scoreboard which is where we have a clear advantage over all bar one team this year.

[boydogs]

Murf is one of the worst in our team at applying defensive pressure.

Really? I guess I have not seen him forward enough this year to judge and was going on his pace and the fact he played in defense in the past. Will keep an eye out

[alwaysadog]

It's an interesting one, everyone keeps going on about the Dogs and lack of true key forwards won't take them deep into September.

Looking back on last weeks game, Collingwood smashed us all over the ground, and for the first 3 quarters, not one of their key forwards troubled the scoreboard, in the final term, we got our game going, we worked alot harder, and came back to neally pinch it, again, without key forwards, and Collingwood in return in that final term, no goals from key forwards.

I got the feeling throughout the game whilst being there watching, i don't really think going by the way we were playing and delivery to the forward line, key forwards probably wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway, if you're not working hard enough and are beaten around the ground, key forwards won;t make alot of a difference imo.

You look at other sides, with key forwards, having watched Brisbane a few times as an example with Brown & Bradshaw, especially last season, and games when they did get belted in the middle & around the ground, the key forwards didn't have anywhere near enough of an impact to turn the game.

That final v the Hawks last year, would key forwards have helped? not if our work rate as the same that night.

This is exactly the point that Mitch Hahn was making at the TopDogs dinner last Tuesday; a key forward won't necessarily make any difference. the way of the future is a spread of goal kickers and players will rotate depending on gameday factors.

Most people have come to accept that defenses can't work if forwards are getting the ball beautifully delivered to them because our pressure up the ground isn't good. It's about time we accepted that forwards can't work if the ball isn't delivered with any precision.

[Stefcep]

It's about time we accepted that *small* forwards can't work if the ball isn't delivered with any precision.


If you have a Reiwoldt, a Brown, a Buddy, a Fev then you don't have to necessarily hit them on the chest, as these forwards have the height and strength to take an overhead mark, even if it is over hit or a moon ball. Our small forwards don't allow us this luxury. thats was the glaring fact against Collingwood.

Last week I was against B Hall being recruited. As we all know a week is a long time in football. This week I definately think we are one tall forward and one tall defender amiss with our current team list.

[alwaysadog]

If you have a Reiwoldt, a Brown, a Buddy, a Fev then you don't have to necessarily hit them on the chest, as these forwards have the height and strength to take an overhead mark, even if it is over hit or a moon ball. Our small forwards don't allow us this luxury. thats was the glaring fact against Collingwood.

Last week I was against B Hall being recruited. As we all know a week is a long time in football. This week I definately think we are one tall forward and one tall defender amiss with our current team list.

I feel very disappointed about last weeks game, and I share this feeling of being let down. That said I think this is a simplistic and circular argument; if you think a "Big Forward" is the answer then you can make any circumstances fit the prescription; that's the glaring fact. The answer to any question always depends on what question is being asked. This one seems to have no question but an answer, or is it an over reaction to a very narrow loss after an incredibly poor and disappointing start.

The problem for cynics like me is that it wasn't just that we were just inacurate with our disposal into forward 50, and that's a problem for forwards no matter what their size, in spite of claims to the contrary, but we were totally devoid of any pressure on their ball carriers for most of the game and as a result they put maximum pressure on ours. At this stage I can't see how a new forward is the answer.

Now what I want to know is how a single change to the forward line would solve this problem?

I'm not against us having a big forward or even two, but unless it's one who can work in a multi pronged attack and can contribute when things are going against them I don't want to go down that path. I don't think either Hall or Fev fit this bill, so they're out of contention. Now are either of Reiwoldt or Brown available? I think not.

I don't want to go down the saviour course yet again, we have seen how this sort of thinking not only side tracks us but leads us to going backwards, what did Jade Rawlings or Alan Jakovitch ultimately contribute, and their recruitment was the result of this sort of thinking?

It's very tempting to adopt stock answers but IMHO the answer to avoiding last week's half hearted effort is that we need 22 players performing well for 4 quarters. If we achieve that then we don't need too many changes to current personel, but how to achieve it is to my mind at least, the critical question, and what changes might be needed if we continue to put in performances as we did in the last encounter.

[Mofra]

Part of the reason I believe our forwardline set-up is so important is that we did manage more scoring shots last week, however if the ball is coming in with a lack of precision and or system, our shots on goal will either be rushed, or our forwards are pushed wide for lower-percentage chances of conversion.

If the opposiiton is clogging up our space we need to find a way to make space, even if in just one part of the forwardline so we can get a one on one that isn't a KPP defender on one of our midgets. It was mentioned pre-season we didn't block well for each other last year in the F50 and it is something they want to rectify. It is something we really need to work on in the lead up to finals, as we are unlikely to get any more breathing space than we did last week - our likely opponents are just too good at covering for each other.

[Stefcep]

It's very tempting to adopt stock answers but IMHO the answer to avoiding last week's half hearted effort is that we need 22 players performing well for 4 quarters.

A week ago I would have agreed with you. Looking at the stats for the season, scoring wasn't our problem as we had scored only second best to Geelong in the AFL. At the Collingwood match, the delivery to the forwards was poor. But even with the best midfield in the world the delivery will never be precise EVERY time because good opposition sides will make midfielders kick under pressure. That's when tall strong marking forward capable of taking a grab under pressure and kicking 3 goals a game can be the difference between losing and winning a grand final. A player like that also takes with him a tall KPD away from our smaller forwards. I have no doubt thats what Eade has in mind in terms of his vision for the club and list management in hisreview that's coming up and he keeps talking about This is also evidenced by the club recruiting the likes of Grant, Roughhead and Cordy. I think Hall could be a good 12 month stop-gap until those three come into their own at senior level.

[Mofra]

I think Hall could be a good 12 month stop-gap until those three come into their own at senior level.
I really like the idea of anybody to be a 12 month stop gap, as I don't think any of the three will be ready for regular senior action next year, but all three have raw talent in bucketloads. If anyone sees how angry they get at themselves if they miss a half-chance for a mark or goal, they'd see the kids really want to succeed.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not against us having a big forward or even two, but unless it's one who can work in a multi pronged attack and can contribute when things are going against them I don't want to go down that path. I don't think either Hall or Fev fit this bill, so they're out of contention. Now are either of Reiwoldt or Brown available? I think not.

I don't want to go down the saviour course yet again, we have seen how this sort of thinking not only side tracks us but leads us to going backwards, what did Jade Rawlings or Alan Jakovitch ultimately contribute, and their recruitment was the result of this sort of thinking?


Neither Rawlings or Jakovich were real contested marks, or experienced any sustained personal or team success.

Hall has. And Pavlich should be pursued with all avenues explored if the possibility at all exists.

[The Coon Dog]

Pavlich should be pursued with all avenues explored if the possibility at all exists.

Realistically, what do you think we would have to give up to get him?

[LostDoggy]

Realistically, what do you think we would have to give up to get him?

First-round draft pick and Josh Hill, or second-round draft pick and Shaun Higgins/Tom Williams.

Only other Dogs on the list with trade currency to Freo (apart from Coons, Lake and Griff) are Cordy, Grant and maybe Everitt.

[Sedat]

Lack of forward pressure is one of the remaining glaring deficiencies of our team – how do we turn it around so we’re somewhere near the level of the completion benchmark in St Kilda?

We get the ball into our 50 so much now, through a very good midfield and rebounding defensive group, but it’s frustrating to see it hit the half forward line and come straight back once the ball hits the ground.

Is it a case of just lacking the players – should we be targeting a Cyril Rioli/Alwyn Davey type in the draft who adds pace to the team and who’s primary job is to creature defensive pressure in our forward 50?

Or is it just attitude? Should Rocket place a higher premium on guys who are relentless in their chasing and tackling when the ball hits the ground in our attacking arc?
Some weeks our collective defensive pressure from the forwards has been outstanding (Hawthorn and Sydney games spring to mind) but other weeks the intensity has dropped off considerably. The problem is that none of our starting forward 6 seem to have a natural inclination to do the defensive oriented acts. This comes naturally to someone like a Harbrow, but the likes of Johnno, Hill, Murphy, Aker and Higgins are naturally attack-oriented footballers. If a Stevie Milne can transform his defensive game full circle, there's no reason why some of our forwards can't follow suit on a much more consistent basis. The frustrating thing is that there seems to be no consistency of defensive effort from one week to the next. And in order to win the flag, we are going to need 3 or 4 consecutive weeks of supreme defensive effort across the ground (in particular the forward half) come September.

If we are to have a tall forward incorporated into our set-up, they really need to have that defensive oriented desire to contribute in this area. That's what makes guys like J Brown, Riewoldt and Hall so invaluable - not only can they clunk a contested mark but they work so hard chasing and harrassing the opposition defenders as well as put in supreme physical efforts to make multiple leads to provide a constantly mobile target.

[Studentlib]

First step would be to give him (Hall) a thorough psych exam and determine 1) Is he really committed to playing footy, 2) Can he be re-trained to behave himself for 26 weeks, and independent of this process determine 3) What moral/ behavioural effect would he have on the younger playing group? Negative answers on all 3 issues I fear.