Ins & Outs for rd17 - St.Kilda

[Mantis]

Huge game against the competitions benchmark.

As has been discussed in other threads the most obvious candidate for demotion is Eagleton. His early season form has trailed off and I think it is time for a change.

In: Stack
Out: Eagleton

O'Keefe is probably the most deserving of promotion, but don't I think this is the game to blood a player who has concerns about his pace.

[LostDoggy]

:) probably won't happen.

[Mantis]

Agree ES, but I went with what I would do and not with what is most likely to happen.

[Desipura]

After watching the Saints game and seeing how hard they tackled, I would have brought in Reid for Eagleton, too bad Reid has been injured.
In: Everitt or O'Keefe
Out: Eagleton or Hill.
Eagleton has lost his pace so bringing in O'Keefe will not slow us down.
Im surprised Hill has not been under the same scrutiny.
My first choice would be to bring in Everitt for Eagleton

[Mofra]

Probably wont be a change.
Eagleton is under the most pressure, Welsh wasn't great but an inexperieced forward against the best bckline in the comp would be murder.

[Sedat]

If Kosi is cited and gets a week, I wonder if Williams will have a suitable match-up in the St Kilda forward line? If there is one team that would require us to have as much running depth as possible it would be the Saints.

[Bulldog Revolution]

If Kosi is cited and gets a week, I wonder if Williams will have a suitable match-up in the St Kilda forward line? If there is one team that would require us to have as much running depth as possible it would be the Saints.

My feeling is that St Kilda will still have plenty of height in their lineup

Williams has to play for my money

[G-Mo77]

Probably no change again. I think a few players are on pretty thin ice though.

[Mofra]

If Kosi is cited and gets a week, I wonder if Williams will have a suitable match-up in the St Kilda forward line? If there is one team that would require us to have as much running depth as possible it would be the Saints.
You'd expect Gardiner to come in for Kosi if he is cited so Williams will still have a decent match up. McEvoy can go forward as well.

[G-Mo77]

I think Kosi will miss anyway

[Jasper]

hill would have to be on thin ice, he has done nothing for 2 weeks and the 3 games before that he was the junk time specialist.

Out: Hill

In: okeefe or skinny

[craigsahibee]

Irrespective of whether there was a match up or not, Tommy will play. He needs game time.

Everitt is a likely candidate for Eagleton. Has the ability to play through the middle and can float across half back as a third man in.

Agree with others regarding Josh Hill. Might be worth giving him a run at Williamstown this week to get some touch.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I think Kosi will miss anyway

Why?

[LostDoggy]

We need to have players with a big tank. Stack hasn't and there are doubts about O'Keefe.

I think we are a fitter side than them and an eight day break v 6 days will be to our advantage. As impressive as they were against the Pissants, they were stuffed during the final quarter, as they were against us the first time around.

I think we can overtake them in the final quarter when our fitnes comes to the fore. Hill comes in for criticism for doing good things during "junk time." I would like to think he comes into his own then, when the opposition defenders are wilting.

It's a bit like running in the Melbourne Cup. The winner is not the horse in front the first time past the post.

[Stefcep]

We need to have players with a big tank. Stack hasn't and there are doubts about O'Keefe.

I think we are a fitter side than them and an eight day break v 6 days will be to our advantage. As impressive as they were against the Pissants, they were stuffed during the final quarter, as they were against us the first time around.

I think we can overtake them in the final quarter when our fitnes comes to the fore. Hill comes in for criticism for doing good things during "junk time." I would like to think he comes into his own then, when the opposition defenders are wilting.

It's a bit like running in the Melbourne Cup. The winner is not the horse in front the first time past the post.

Pissants?

re: Hill. Doesn't matter much if you are scoring when the game is over though..

[Sedat]

Why?
Suffered a hand injury late in the piece. However, reports this morning indicated that it wasn't likely to prevent him from playing this week.

[Sedat]

You'd expect Gardiner to come in for Kosi if he is cited so Williams will still have a decent match up. McEvoy can go forward as well.
Fair enough. I guess preventing Morris and Hargy from being forced to 'trade up' with their match ups will be more important than potentially bringing in another runner.

[Ozza]

Suffered a hand injury late in the piece. However, reports this morning indicated that it wasn't likely to prevent him from playing this week.

May also get suspended for a late hit...

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=Stefcep;98607]

Pissants?

It's an Adelaide thing

re: Hill. Doesn't matter much if you are scoring when the game is over though

I am saying Hill often comes into his own in the last quarter because his and our fitness come to the fore then - not because the pressure is released.

Describing him as being only effective when it's all over is simply incorrect. He will prove a worthwhile player in finals because he needs to be watched 100% of the time and that won't happen when opposition defences are under pressure.

[G-Mo77]

Suffered a hand injury late in the piece. However, reports this morning indicated that it wasn't likely to prevent him from playing this week.

Oh well. It looked pretty bad last night. What was the official diagnosis? Just split webbing?

[LostDoggy]

Interesting re: comments about 'junk time' players. As our healthy percentage is worth a game-break on most chasing teams, it would seem that the ability to continue building a blowout score is actually a relatively valuable commodity in the home and away season.

I have also come to appreciate the qualities of players who run up a score late in games as we no longer have to endure as many nailbiting seemingly-solid-but-actually-flimsy 20-point buffers going into the last 10 minutes of a game.

ps. Having said that, of course you would love Hilly to perform more consistently when the game is on the line..

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think a few players would be on their last chance. Considering it's a big game v St. Kilda, they'll all be given another go.

Eagleton, Hill and Ward have been struggling though.

Eagle has barely been in the play at all for quite a few weeks. They'll value his potential long kicking and gut running, though. I suspect they'll be trying to make him a key player - especially against St. Kilda's "frontal pressure".

Hill has stagnated and either needs to be moved up towards the wing where he can run and create a bit. He's getting the second best defender almost every week and he's getting beaten fairly easy.

Ward has tapered in the last 3 or so weeks. It's understandable too. I think another 2 week 'rest' in the VFL would help him. He seems to have lost his touch again a little bit.

In saying that - they are all vital to our team needs and if they play well, it'll be a non issue. I would think these three will be under pressure this week to perform, though.

[Mantis]

I think a few players would be on their last chance. Considering it's a big game v St. Kilda, they'll all be given another go.

Eagleton, Hill and Ward have been struggling though.

Eagle has barely been in the play at all for quite a few weeks. They'll value his potential long kicking and gut running, though. I suspect they'll be trying to make him a key player - especially against St. Kilda's "frontal pressure".

Hill has stagnated and either needs to be moved up towards the wing where he can run and create a bit. He's getting the second best defender almost every week and he's getting beaten fairly easy.

Ward has tapered in the last 3 or so weeks. It's understandable too. I think another 2 week 'rest' in the VFL would help him. He seems to have lost his touch again a little bit.

In saying that - they are all vital to our team needs and if they play well, it'll be a non issue. I would think these three will be under pressure this week to perform, though.

Hypothetically if all 3 play this week and don't perform do we stick with them for the following weeks considering we play lesser teams on the ladder so that they run into form or do we give them a rest, and if so for how long? And how do we determine when they come back considering they will all probably dominate at Willi, but except for Ward (Eagle did do ok against Geelong in rd 9) they have all struggled against the competitions best.

I think we will learn a hell of a lot about our team this week, lets hope we are up for the challenge.

[Sedat]

Pretty tough analysis on Ward I'd have thought. He was one of the pivotal factors in us gaining the midfield ascendency in the last qtr against Geelong, and he was far from our worst against Collingwood. He might not be racking up the massive stats but what he is winning he is doing so in heavy traffic. I'd be pretty comfortable of him holding his own against the Saints this week.

[bornadog]

Pretty tough analysis on Ward I'd have thought. He was one of the pivotal factors in us gaining the midfield ascendency in the last qtr against Geelong, and he was far from our worst against Collingwood. He might not be racking up the massive stats but what he is winning he is doing so in heavy traffic. I'd be pretty comfortable of him holding his own against the Saints this week.

He has been playing a different role over the last few weeks and still racking up 17/18 possessions. I thought he was great in the first half on Friday night and shut his man down in the second half, without getting too many possessions himself.

[always right]

Irrespective of whether there was a match up or not, Tommy will play. He needs game time.

Everitt is a likely candidate for Eagleton. Has the ability to play through the middle and can float across half back as a third man in.

Agree with others regarding Josh Hill. Might be worth giving him a run at Williamstown this week to get some touch.

Before dropping him, I'd prefer to see Eade push him up the ground more. His overhead strength is diminished when he has to play body on body. Let him run up and down the ground where he can use his skills and running ability to be damaging. It also allows him to float into the forwardline where he has a better chance to take a grab.

We need blokes with an X factor and Hill certainly has that. To my mind he is a necessity for the finals and we need to find the best way of utilizing his talent.

[jazzadogs]

With the exception of Gia (at the expense of I don't know who?), this team would be the team Eade is hoping to take into the finals. Therefore, I would expect him to make no changes unless forced by injury. He won't be demoting players on form, because he would want to test them against the standard they will face in September.

If players such as Eagleton and Hill don't stand up this weekend, then I think there will be an increased chance of some changes.

[bulldog]

No change for me Eagleton has been fantastic this year and will be crucial on
friday nite.

[G-Mo77]

No change for me Eagleton has been fantastic this year and will be crucial on friday nite.

THat would be nice for him but I'd rather him put in a solid performance the next night. :)

[The Coon Dog]

No change for me Eagleton has been fantastic this year and will be crucial on
friday nite.
Where have you been the past 3 weeks?

[LostDoggy]

Huge test for us Saturday night, pity it isn't our home game. We can't rest any players, but the 8 day turnaround will be valuable. I think after this game we need to rotate a few players over the coming three weeks to rest them up for the finals, Hudson, Eagle, Hill and Welsh.

I was confident of winning this one up until the weekend, but the way the 'aints demolished Adelaide after coming back from Perth was scarey stuff. So much at stake for this game, we need to beat a team in the top four spot or the doubts will set in. If we beat the Saints we can beat anyone in the finals - Collingwood - meh, Geelong - yes, the Saints - looming challenge. GO DOGS!

[Rance Fan]

After watching the Saints game and seeing how hard they tackled, I would have brought in Reid for Eagleton, too bad Reid has been injured.
In: Everitt or O'Keefe
Out: Eagleton or Hill.
Eagleton has lost his pace so bringing in O'Keefe will not slow us down.
Im surprised Hill has not been under the same scrutiny.
My first choice would be to bring in Everitt for Eagleton

Spot on!

[boydogs]

Out: Eagleton
In: Everitt

Our bottom 6 at the moment are probably Welsh, Williams, Picken, Hill, Eagleton and Ward. Welsh and Williams are very important key position players that we can't hide, good to see they were better against Essendon than Collingwood.

Picken I think we have experimented with too much using him forward and back as well as tagging different midfield types, he is versatile but an outside mid tagger first and foremost. Hill I think is being played out of position and can offer more further up the ground, evidenced by the fact he is always full of beans in junk time

I suspect we are structuring up around where our better players are best suited and then trying to use the rest to fill the gaps rather than playing them where they can be most effective. St Kilda will show us up in this area if we don't get it right as the most notable improvement from them this season is the effectiveness of their lesser lights given the right role to play. You could probably say this about us for Harbrow - just shows the impact finding the right role for a player can have

Ward has improved since the start of the year but could be the one to miss if Gia makes it back for the finals and no-one else is injured or suspended, has only had 20+ possessions in 1 of 13 games this year and averaging less than 16. Eagleton is the other one at risk, but could just do with a weeks break as he has been better over the course of the season for mine

Picken to Dal Santo, Hill on the wing, Everitt on the other wing for Eagleton - I think we could be pleasantly suprised by his output if we play to his strengths by giving him a run there

[alwaysadog]

Look I may be totally wrong about this, but its a long time since we were badly beaten, or when after 100+ minutes we had a feeling we hadn't been competitive. So I wonder given this record, what we are trying to achieve and what perspective is being used.

As far as I can tell the only player at Willy who has been in terrific form all year is Skipper and he doesn't rate a mention. So in spite of claims all round that form at Willy should be the No 1 criteria it seems to be conveniently forgotten in these discussions.

This thread was useful when we were trying to cover a spate of injuries or weren't clear about what was our best 22. Now its only purpose seems to me to get stuck into players who have been terrific contributors during the season but are having a down period and due to past prejudices have been singled out for negative comment.

If no one is currently bashing down the door at Willy except Skipper then what is the real strength of arguments for change?

[lemmon]

No change, winning forms good form in my book.

[alwaysadog]

No change, winning forms good form in my book.

How come you say in 9 or so words what took me paragraphs?

[LostDoggy]

Look I may be totally wrong about this, but its a long time since we were badly beaten, or when after 100+ minutes we had a feeling we hadn't been competitive. So I wonder given this record, what we are trying to achieve and what perspective is being used.

As far as I can tell the only player at Willy who has been in terrific form all year is Skipper and he doesn't rate a mention. So in spite of claims all round that form at Willy should be the No 1 criteria it seems to be conveniently forgotten in these discussions.

This thread was useful when we were trying to cover a spate of injuries or weren't clear about what was our best 22. Now its only purpose seems to me to get stuck into players who have been terrific contributors during the season but are having a down period and due to past prejudices have been singled out for negative comment.

If no one is currently bashing down the door at Willy except Skipper then what is the real strength of arguments for change?


Dude, I have long given up on making sense of ins and outs threads. Face it, people will want to drop certain players and focus on certain players from Willy to be promoted irrespective of form.

[alwaysadog]

Dude, I have long given up on making sense of ins and outs threads. Face it, people will want to drop certain players and focus on certain players from Willy to be promoted irrespective of form.

Absolutely correct, but on a discussion board I can't but make the occasional plea for reason. I let so much blatant prejudice go through to keeper knowing the coaches aren't swayed by such appeals, but every now and then I bleat my protest.

[GVGjr]

Absolutely correct, but on a discussion board I can't but make the occasional plea for reason. I let so much blatant prejudice go through to keeper knowing the coaches aren't swayed by such appeals, but every now and then I bleat my protest.

I get to a lot of Williamstown games so I hope when I nominate players for a promotion it is largely form based. At the moment I'd like to see Tim Callan added but it's bloody hard to drop someone to make room.

[alwaysadog]

I get to a lot of Williamstown games so I hope when I nominate players for a promotion it is largely form based. At the moment I'd like to see Tim Callan added but it's bloody hard to drop someone to make room.

Never any complaint from me about either your reports or recommendations. They are always well thought out and from my perspective extremely perceptive.

I might have missed Tim from my earlier comments but I don't think it detracts from my central thesis that the side is doing well and nobody is so hot at Willy that they can't be ignored. Tim is a victim of Harbrow not just doing well but adding another dimension to our defence.

[BulldogBelle]

No change, winning forms good form in my book.

Well that's the way I look at it also. No need to change a winning formula. :)

[boydogs]

Look I may be totally wrong about this, but its a long time since we were badly beaten, or when after 100+ minutes we had a feeling we hadn't been competitive. So I wonder given this record, what we are trying to achieve and what perspective is being used.

As far as I can tell the only player at Willy who has been in terrific form all year is Skipper and he doesn't rate a mention. So in spite of claims all round that form at Willy should be the No 1 criteria it seems to be conveniently forgotten in these discussions.

This thread was useful when we were trying to cover a spate of injuries or weren't clear about what was our best 22. Now its only purpose seems to me to get stuck into players who have been terrific contributors during the season but are having a down period and due to past prejudices have been singled out for negative comment.

If no one is currently bashing down the door at Willy except Skipper then what is the real strength of arguments for change?

I think the maximum number of changes anyone has suggested is 2, some say 0 and some 1. The ins and outs suggested are based on poor form from Eagleton and Hill, its not like the old Tiller out Everitt in, Addison out Callan in etc. because of personal preference repeated every week regardless of performance

[alwaysadog]

I think the maximum number of changes anyone has suggested is 2, some say 0 and some 1. The ins and outs suggested are based on poor form from Eagleton and Hill, its not like the old Tiller out Everitt in, Addison out Callan in etc. because of personal preference repeated every week regardless of performance

Maybe I've got it wrong but as I read it, it started with Eagleton, moved on to Hill and then got to Callen. That was three and rising and seemed to me not to be based on an argument that such and such at Willy was demanding a place. So I asked given our recent form what was the basis of the argument and I still haven't got an answer.

[LostDoggy]

I agree. Wardy has been an integral part of our recent form, and Hill, while drifting in and out of games, still offers value in what has derogatorily called 'junk time' (yet if no one does this, the same people will be complaining that we don't 'run games out' or 'put teams away', or complain about our percentage). It seems that we're just nitpicking to find fault -- very few players have ever played the perfect game.. some punters will just never be happy!

I mean, some were still calling for players to be dropped after an EIGHTY-EIGHT POINT win against the reigning premiers!

Ps. I will leave the Eagleton debate alone.

[boydogs]

So I asked given our recent form what was the basis of the argument and I still haven't got an answer.

My own suggested change was Everitt in for Eagleton, as Eagleton has played poorly for three weeks running including a milestone game for him where we dominated but he struggled. I would have Everitt coming in to the same position as he has been playing well at Williamstown and was in the bests there last week, playing up the ground for them more so than he has been used at AFL level to date.

This would give Nathan a break from what is bound to be a tough physical contest against the Saints to find form and gear up for the run into the finals and potentially unlock Andrejs' potential being used in the right role. His height, spoiling, run and kicking could add something to the side in breaking open their zone defense as well as holding them up going the other way

[bornadog]

My own suggested change was Everitt in for Eagleton, as Eagleton has played poorly for three weeks running including a milestone game for him where we dominated but he struggled. I would have Everitt coming in to the same position as he has been playing well at Williamstown and was in the bests there last week, playing up the ground for them more so than he has been used at AFL level to date.

This would give Nathan a break from what is bound to be a tough physical contest against the Saints to find form and gear up for the run into the finals and potentially unlock Andrejs' potential being used in the right role. His height, spoiling, run and kicking could add something to the side in breaking open their zone defense as well as holding them up going the other way

I agree, Eagleton has been very very poor the past three weeks and that includes a 88 belting of the Hawks when he played his 250, the poor effort in a close one against Collingwood when he only touched the ball 9 times, when we really needed his run and carry, and last weeks game when again he only had 13 disposals in a 33 point win.

He is a senior player, but has been very poor and should be dropped.

I agree gogriff, Everitt to the wing............... now that would be a hard match up for the Saints.

[alwaysadog]

My own suggested change was Everitt in for Eagleton, as Eagleton has played poorly for three weeks running including a milestone game for him where we dominated but he struggled. I would have Everitt coming in to the same position as he has been playing well at Williamstown and was in the bests there last week, playing up the ground for them more so than he has been used at AFL level to date.

This would give Nathan a break from what is bound to be a tough physical contest against the Saints to find form and gear up for the run into the finals and potentially unlock Andrejs' potential being used in the right role. His height, spoiling, run and kicking could add something to the side in breaking open their zone defense as well as holding them up going the other way

Its a fair comment but I don't think Everitt is exactly in sparkling form; yes he's doing well but it's not as if for weeks he's been playing scintillating football, and I say this with some regret because I wish he was, he is someone I have big hopes for and find his continued presence at Willy somewhat of a troubling mystery.

[LostDoggy]

No Change.
Team will be the same as last week providing no injuries come up during the week.

[Desipura]

No Change.
Team will be the same as last week providing no injuries come up during the week.
Do you know this for a fact?

[LostDoggy]

I agree, Eagleton has been very very poor the past three weeks and that includes a 88 belting of the Hawks when he played his 250, the poor effort in a close one against Collingwood when he only touched the ball 9 times, when we really needed his run and carry, and last weeks game when again he only had 13 disposals in a 33 point win.

He is a senior player, but has been very poor and should be dropped.

I agree gogriff, Everitt to the wing............... now that would be a hard match up for the Saints.

I have backed Eags all the way but this would be the only change I would make at this stage. Though perhaps benefit of the doubt to Nathan for this game and greater confidence to Everitt if this happens next game.

[bornadog]

I have backed Eags all the way but this would be the only change I would make at this stage. Though perhaps benefit of the doubt to Nathan for this game and greater confidence to Everitt if this happens next game.

Everitt played last time we met the Saints, but we didn't have Williams or Tiller in, so he had to play a KP role. This time we should play him on the wing and let him run free.

[Mantis]

Everitt played last time we met the Saints, but we didn't have Williams or Tiller in, so he had to play a KP role. This time we should play him on the wing and let him run free.

I think the main concern on Everitt is that he just doesn't run enough.

I guess we won't know until we give him an opportunity.

[bornadog]

I think the main concern on Everitt is that he just doesn't run enough.

I guess we won't know until we give him an opportunity.

Yeah, too busy trying to be a defender, which I believe he isn't.

[comrade]

Yeah, too busy trying to be a defender, which I believe he isn't.

I agree.

He looks a much better prospect when played up the ground.

[LostDoggy]

As has been discussed in other threads the most obvious candidate for demotion is Eagleton.

No Changes this week obvious to whom? He is not even being considered to be dropped nor should he be.

[The Coon Dog]

No Changes this week obvious to whom? He is not even being considered to be dropped nor should he be.

He won't be dropped, he has credits, but at the very least he should be put on notice, how many poor games in a row can a player be carried?

[LostDoggy]

He won't be dropped, he has credits, but at the very least he should be put on notice, how many poor games in a row can a player be carried?

There's no issue with Eagleton and his position in the team as far as the club is concerned they are not overly unhappy with his performances.

[The Coon Dog]

they are not overly unhappy with his performances.

Why? Has he been given a task that we're not aware of? How can the club be not overly unhappy with his performance?

Forget the Club's position for a moment, how do you think he's performed against Hawthorn, Collingwood & Essendon?

[Mantis]

No Changes this week obvious to whom? He is not even being considered to be dropped nor should he be.

To me and others who post regularly on this forum.

As you are aware I ain't his biggest fan at the best of times, but there are quite a few others who are bringing his name forward as a possible candidate for demotion.

Look I know you receive inside information (as do I) and you know his standing within the team (as do I), but as TCD has mentioned his output has to improve shortly or his credits will surely run out.

[bornadog]

Why? Has he been given a task that we're not aware of? How can the club be not overly unhappy with his performance?

Forget the Club's position for a moment, how do you think he's performed against Hawthorn, Collingwood & Essendon?

Our coaching staff are soft sometimes, the last three weeks have been very poor. 9 disposals against Collingwood and 13 against Essendon are woeful for a player of his caliber.


To me and others who post regularly on this forum.

As you are aware I ain't his biggest fan at the best of times, but there are quite a few others who are bringing his name forward as a possible candidate for demotion.

Look I know you receive inside information (as do I) and you know his standing within the team (as do I), but as TCD has mentioned his output has to improve shortly or his credits will surely run out.

How long do we have to put up with a poor performance, before a player is dropped and guys like Callan, Addison and Okeefe keep knocking on the door.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

How long do we have to put up with a poor performance, before a player is dropped and guys like Callan, Addison and Okeefe keep knocking on the door.

I guess the big picture is the key, Rocket and co will give it to him this week. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on Ray as he ray had the better of him last time. Also with Farren's lack of accountability Eagle may just capture some form.

Well I hope so as I to am not a Bauld Eagle fan and would blood a kid given the opportunity:(

[boydogs]

There's no issue with Eagleton and his position in the team as far as the club is concerned they are not overly unhappy with his performances.

Thanks Charmdog for the insight. Are you able to elaborate on this at all, and what is your personal view?

[comrade]

I guess the big picture is the key, Rocket and co will give it to him this week. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on Ray as he ray had the better of him last time. Also with Farren's lack of accountability Eagle may just capture some form.

Well I hope so as I to am not a Bauld Eagle fan and would blood a kid given the opportunity:(

Cue Ray getting 39 touches again.

I don’t doubt Charmdog’s insights, so to hear the coaching staff are not unhappy with his current form is mind-boggling.

CD, you’re going to have to give us some clarification – as TCD asked, is he being given a different role?

And if he has been given a new role is it: ‘get the ball the least amount of times you can, be ineffective when you do get it, move forward and clog up the space for our mobile forward line and don’t take a mark overhead’ because that’s how he’s played the last 3 weeks. :D

On a serious note, they should let him play to his strengths - running and kicking long.

[Desipura]

my issue with Eagleton is when he runs to the right of his teammate to receive a handball . This is not the most intelligent thing to do given his right foot is non existent.
Against the Saints he will not have the luxury of time to turn onto his left. So what happens then?
He is under pressure and therefore gives a "loopy" handball to his teammate (hoping for a handball back onto his left side) which enables the opposition to tackle the teammate and cause a turnover.