No team self destructs more than the dogs

[LostDoggy]

Thread says it all.

[LostDoggy]

We turn to mush very quickly when pressure is applied, our footskills have been horrible and allowing teams to kick 6 unanswered goals for the better part of most games in extremely disheartening.

We had as many inside 50's, but our delivery was shameful and our defensive pressure from the likes of Hill and Welsh was non existant.

[cinder]

Depressing but I would have to agree.
Whilst I suppose we should be glad to be 3rd on the ladder and having a relatively successful season, at the end of the day it doesn't matter if we can't improve on previous seasons and go that one step further.

[comrade]

Our decision making was insanely bad at times, especially in our defensive 50.

Harbrow and Lake both had their worst games in a long time and made a number of glaring skill/decision making errors that cost us goals.

Regarding our midfield, it must be disheartening to work hard to win possession and look up as and see nothing to kick to - again and again and again.

[LostDoggy]

On pure skill and game plan, we're up with the best of them -- we matched the Saints tonight in the tackle count and inside-50s (!). But all our best players (bar Morris and Boydy) are prone to the big brain fade.

Can you imagine Sam Gilbert or Sam Fisher coughing up the ball in their defensive 50 ala Lakey?

Or any team hit the post as often as we do? Or kick it repeatedly to a free defender (instead of our free forward, as there must inevitably be)? Or give away as many goals from turnovers?

Or give away an interchange snafu at the start of a 4th quarter when we have all the momentum to throw the game away?

Skills are not the issue here -- it's mental.

With apologies to Richmond and Fremantle (who actually are both crap), we are definitely the self-destruct kings of the AFL.

[Sedat]

Harbrow and Lake both had their worst games in a long time and made a number of glaring skill/decision making errors that cost us goals.

Regarding our midfield, it must be disheartening to work hard to win possession and look up as and see nothing to kick to - again and again and again.
Denis Pagan's infamous 'media street' strikes again. Don't think there will be as much written in the papers about Lake this week.

[LostDoggy]

Nothing new here.

[Mantis]

Denis Pagan's infamous 'media street' strikes again. Don't think there will be as much written in the papers about Lake this week.

I thought his 2nd and 3rd quarters were quite good. He certainly sucked arse big time in the 1st and last qtrs.

[The Underdog]

I thought his 2nd and 3rd quarters were quite good. He certainly sucked arse big time in the 1st and last qtrs.

I agree he picked up about halfway through the 2nd, but we may have saved ourselves $50000 a year based on his opening 40 minutes where only Harbrow's decision making made him not worst on ground.

[LostDoggy]

MMM i agree..our hand skills we're incredibly terrible tonight!
fumble fumble fumble!

[Sockeye Salmon]

I agree he picked up about halfway through the 2nd, but we may have saved ourselves $50000 a year based on his opening 40 minutes where only Harbrow's decision making made him not worst on ground.

Harbrow becomes worst on ground because he tries to take them on and ***'s it up?

I'd rather he do that than play safe.

If you want a scapegoat for worst on ground have a look in Josh Hill's direction.

[comrade]

Harbrow becomes worst on ground because he tries to take them on and ***'s it up?

I'd rather he do that than play safe.

I love Harbrow's attacking instincts and don't begrudge him that errant handball straight to Milne for a goal - my biggest issue with his game was the amount of times he'd work up the field only to blaze away and kick it directly to a lone St Kilda defender.

The combination of poor decision making and below par foot skills meant he had real howler.


If you want a scapegoat for worst on ground have a look in Josh Hill's direction.

I agree. He's been poor for some time now and is in need of a spell.

[Studentlib]

What was served up tonight was unacceptable. So much was so wrong. Even the simple things like having a small, front and centre of the pack, kicking to advantage, keeping the ball low, handballing to space, players making space etc. The coaching staff have to take a lot of responsibility for this performance. There appeared to be no strategy/tactics for breaking their forward press.We went with our normal plan and it didn't work. Our skills are usually ok when not under pressure,but how do you explain Lake dropping an uncontested mark, Hargrave kicking out to a Saint, Harbrow deciding to take on Riewolt, Boyd not seeing a free player 40 metres in the open and handballing to the opposition. Until we improve our decision making and learn not to overcommit to the contest, talk to each other and make sure not everyone goes to the contest, to look up before playing on, we will continue to turnover the ball. Lake and harbrow were always going to be the weak points in regard to decision making because of concentration problems with lake and inexperience with Harbrow. Dealing with actual and perceived pressure should be teachable. BTW Why is it acceptable for professional footballers to slip over, can't they choose the right boots for the surface when they've been out there 20 minutes before the game.? I hope the coaching staff take a long hard look at their preparation. Where was planB? Was there a Plan B? Callan Ward shone; his physical and mental toughness, unbelievable in a 19 yo.
Eagleton, Hill and Welsh out and Everett,Gilbee come in. Keep Addison.

[Sedat]

One area where we didn't self-destruct was our work work at the stoppages. I thought we were quite good in this area tonight, against the competition benchmark, and was no small reason why we were able to in feed the ball into forward 50 on 10 more occasions than the average against the Saints.

[The Underdog]

Harbrow becomes worst on ground because he tries to take them on and ***'s it up?

I'd rather he do that than play safe.

If you want a scapegoat for worst on ground have a look in Josh Hill's direction.

I agree, I'm happy with him trying to take the game on as he does but his decision making tonight just wasn't good enough. He bombed it without looking too often and didn't handle the pressure (sometimes perceived more than real) at all well. I don't want him to stop taking the game on but if you do that and turn it over constantly you may as well be Jake King. I also don't think I was scapegoating him. He didn't have a good game but he's still in our best 22.

Agree on Hill too. He's provided very little for a month or so. He'd be skating on thin ice.

[craigsahibee]

We are not good enough. Simple. I hate to admit it, but it's the pure cold facts.

[AndrewP6]

I thought tonight gave a very clear indication of where we truly are at. In another thread, months ago, I said we were 2-3 years off a premiership. We were embarrassing tonight. Some passages of very good play, large doses of pitiful disposal, poor decision-making (in some cases, NO decision making!). Tonight was one big challenge, for sure. We failed dismally. And made them look unbeatable.

[The Underdog]

I thought tonight gave a very clear indication of where we truly are at. In another thread, months ago, I said we were 2-3 years off a premiership. We were embarrassing tonight. Some passages of very good play, large doses of pitiful disposal, poor decision-making (in some cases, NO decision making!). Tonight was one big challenge, for sure. We failed dismally. And made them look unbeatable.

I think that the most disappointing fact is that early on most of our wounds were self inflicted. I didn't think St.Kilda's pressure early on was that great but it was almost like we had so geared ourselves up to expect it, that we fumbled and rushed possessions when we had a lot more time than we thought. Even so far as getting ourselves 3 goals down (and if Josh Hill sees Minson out the back of the pack maybe only 2) then killing ourselves with a huge mistake that basically hands the game to the Saints at the start of the last.

[AndrewP6]

I think that the most disappointing fact is that early on most of our wounds were self inflicted. I didn't think St.Kilda's pressure early on was that great but it was almost like we had so geared ourselves up to expect it, that we fumbled and rushed possessions when we had a lot more time than we thought. Even so far as getting ourselves 3 goals down (and if Josh Hill sees Minson out the back of the pack maybe only 2) then killing ourselves with a huge mistake that basically hands the game to the Saints at the start of the last.

Agree on this point. I thought early on that we were actually matching their pressure at times. I stopped counting after 5 errors led to Saint goals (apparently it was something like 12?). Any team will look good with that many gifts.

[Ozza]

Its sad to say - but I wasn't overly surprised with what we turned in last night.

We have a history of faltering big time on these sort of occasions.

Was not surprised whatsover that Hahn, Eagleton and Welsh were all disgraceful - the three of them are always dreadful in big games. Can't cop the three of them as players.

[Stefcep]

One area where we didn't self-destruct was our work work at the stoppages. I thought we were quite good in this area tonight, against the competition benchmark, and was no small reason why we were able to in feed the ball into forward 50 on 10 more occasions than the average against the Saints.

I'm sick of stats that don't tell what really happened. They went inside 50 it with purpose, precision and intent, with an organised and functioning forward line whereas we did it with pointless kicks to no-one. If you want meaningful stats, what were the marks inside our attacking 50 we had? What were St kilda's marks inside their defensive 50 ? How about this one: 12 of 16 of St kilda's goals came from turnovers. Look at those stas and you'll see we basically had no idea going in to the forward line.

[Ozza]

Our structure/absence of any - was pretty embarrassing.

[Stefcep]

Its sad to say - but I wasn't overly surprised with what we turned in last night.

We have a history of faltering big time on these sort of occasions.

Was not surprised whatsover that Hahn, Eagleton and Welsh were all disgraceful - the three of them are always dreadful in big games. Can't cop the three of them as players.

Agree 100%. Don't want any of em there next season.

[bulldogsman]

I'm sick of stats that don't tell what really happened. They went inside 50 it with purpose, precision and intent, with an organised and functioning forward line whereas we did it with pointless kicks to no-one. If you want meaningful stats, what were the marks inside our attacking 50 we had? What were St kilda's marks inside their defensive 50 ? How about this one: 12 of 16 of St kilda's goals came from turnovers. Look at those stas and you'll see we basically had no idea going in to the forward line.


Gee whiz, he was just trying to find a positive in a very negative thread. Settle

[Twodogs]

What were St kilda's marks inside their defensive 50 ?



I watched the replay when I got home and the commentaters stopped counting midway through the last quarter when the figure got to 30 marks St Kilda took in our forward 50 from our kicks.


That's not even close to good enough.

[bornadog]

Harbrow and Lake both had their worst games in a long time and made a number of glaring skill/decision making errors that cost us goals.



The problem was when they looked up, there was no one to kick to. The incident where Harbrow played on after a point and coughed it up, I noticed, he had no one to kick to and no one was making any play. He tried to create something and got caught.

[Sedat]

The problem was when they looked up, there was no one to kick to. The incident where Harbrow played on after a point and coughed it up, I noticed, he had no one to kick to and no one was making any play. He tried to create something and got caught.
The lack of marks inside forward 50 is cause and effect. Is it the poor delivery, or is it the lack of run from our forwards to present a viable option? Some of the delivery was poor but there were numerous instances where the kicker was forced to deliver to stationery targets up forward.

In the first half alone, there were instances where the forwards botched the uncontested mark (Minson x 2), or the ball was moved quickly to a 50-50 and the forwards slipped/fumbled (Welsh x 2, Eagle x 2), or the forwards were put into space and botched the goal attempt (Murphy, Hahn). Had these clear opportunities been taken, when the game was still establishing a pattern, the game could have taken a vastly different path.

Ultimately, St Kilda gave us a lesson in hard work off the ball. If a player so one dimensional in going forward of the ball and doing no work at all the other way (Milne) can completely transform his game for the betterment of the team ethos, then our forwards can surely do the same thing.

[Stefcep]

Gee whiz, he was just trying to find a positive in a very negative thread. Settle

Sorry. I'm equally passionate about the club when we win as when we lose. But I've had enough of trying to find positives in games where the skill level and the commitment eg Eagleton, Hill, Welsh, Hahn is not AFL standard. Commitment is not just putting in the odd bump, but about taking responsibility for your man instead of letting opponents run loose all night.

After 17 games into the season to still not have any forward system or structure reflects badly on Eade and the coaching staff.

If they played us off the oval, fair enough to them, but to hand more than a dozen goals on a plate like that is just unforgiveable.

Acker having a go at Hill is a leaf the coaching staff ought to take. Its no good taking consolation with the old " Well we lost to the best team in the comp, we've had a good season overall, NEARLY beat Geelong, NEARLY beat Collingwood."

St Kilda dropped Milne. Has our the club got the balls to do something similar? For mine this was the worst game we've played all year.

Rant over.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I think there is a fair case that Fremantle probably self-destruct most in the league. Not sure? Pick up the Adelaide game and check back over how many games they have been winning at 3/4 time in the past few seasons only to stop and to lose.

There is certainly some cause for concern, especially the amount of skill errors when their was little or no pressure. I think Will's dropped marks in the first quarter were crucial, had he kicked one of those we could have put the Saints in unfamiliar territory instead of allowing them to play confidently and how they liked.

I think being critical of Welsh is harsh in this case as I suspect his ankle wasn't too good and the supply into our forward line was abysmal. It would be like being too critical of Tredrea, who is having a great season, in the showdown today when the supply to him was very, very poor.

Hopefully we can quickly lick our wounds, regroup and get back to playing the footy that we know we can play. Like has been mentioned, if we get beaten let it be because the opposition have played better not because we have got stage fright and shot ourselves in the foot.

[Sedat]

Sorry. I'm equally passionate about the club when we win as when we lose. But I've had enough of trying to find positives in games where the skill level and the commitment eg Eagleton, Hill, Welsh, Hahn is not AFL standard. Commitment is not just putting in the odd bump, but about taking responsibility for your man instead of letting opponents run loose all night.
Stefcep, none of us enjoyed what was dished up last night. But back to my original point earlier in this thread, were you unhappy with the clearance work and contested ball winning ability from our midfielders? And do you believe that the delivery into our forward 50 was the sole reason why our forward line was dysfunctional? If you think it is, then ask yourself if any of our forwards have the inclination to chase, harrass, corrall the opposition, spread wide to isolate defenders, run to space to clear a path for a teammate, apply blocks for teammates, to basically do all that unglamorous stuff that every player in the St Kilda forward line does religiously and in their sleep.

Did Reiwoldt kill us last night by taking a bunch of contested marks, or was it his amazing work rate that got him to so many contests and kept the ball in St Kilda's forward line through his acts of team-orneited desperation? What sacrificial acts did any of Welsh, Hill, Johnson, Minson, Murphy, Higgins and Hahn do last night to make it as tough as possible for St Kilda's defenders to rebound? IMO it's just too simplistic to say that delivery into our forward line was poor - there is a bare minimum requirement from our forwards to work at least as hard as their direct defensive opponents, and on that score our forwards failed miserably last night.

[Stefcep]

Stefcep, none of us enjoyed what was dished up last night. But back to my original point earlier in this thread, were you unhappy with the clearance work and contested ball winning ability from our midfielders? And do you believe that the delivery into our forward 50 was the sole reason why our forward line was dysfunctional? If you think it is, then ask yourself if any of our forwards have the inclination to chase, harrass, corrall the opposition, spread wide to isolate defenders, run to space to clear a path for a teammate, apply blocks for teammates, to basically do all that unglamorous stuff that every player in the St Kilda forward line does religiously and in their sleep.

Did Reiwoldt kill us last night by taking a bunch of contested marks, or was it his amazing work rate that got him to so many contests and kept the ball in St Kilda's forward line through his acts of team-orneited desperation? What sacrificial acts did any of Welsh, Hill, Johnson, Minson, Murphy, Higgins and Hahn do last night to make it as tough as possible for St Kilda's defenders to rebound? IMO it's just too simplistic to say that delivery into our forward line was poor - there is a bare minimum requirement from our forwards to work at least as hard as their direct defensive opponents, and on that score our forwards failed miserably last night.


I agree that the problem lies with the forwards not creating opportunities to receive from the mids, meaning that the ball is just bombed aimlessly ( remember shaggy having no option but to kick to an empty goal square) and the forwards not working hard when we lose possession, which means the defense is under constant pressure. Kick ins are also a problem, so Harbrow needs to beat Reiwoldt because he has no option to kick to. But this has been happening to some degree all year, it happened against Collingwood for 3 quarters. Against Collingwood and Essendon Higgins worked hard to present and pressure his opponent, and makes his possessions count but when he went off last night NO-ONE did. Compare with the st Kilda forwards that chased our backs, and their pressure leading to mistakes by Lake that end up in goals. You can get away with it playing against lesser sides but top-4 sides will make you pay.

[Topdog]

I agree that the problem lies with the forwards not creating opportunities to receive from the mids, meaning that the ball is just bombed aimlessly ( remember shaggy having no option but to kick to an empty goal square) and the forwards not working hard when we lose possession

Shaggy did this twice in 2 minutes and on both occassions we had a free player. The first time Johnno was wide open which I remember because the commentators said it about ten times afterwards. The 2nd time I can't remember who was open but he still just bombed it in.

Alas even if there is no one free in this situation I would like our players to wait find an open player even if it is 15m away and do a short pass which allows our players some time to leadl.

[LostDoggy]

This performance reminded me of the Final against Hawthorn. Absolute stage fright.

Unles we get some mental toughnes and confidence going into games like this, we are pretenders of the highest order.

Playing well in the big games is what sport is all about. Anybody can get a kick against the minnows, it's another matter to fire up when it counts and I'm afraid we have too many who are simply not up to it.

Names?

Hill, Eagleton, Addison (6 posessions in a game) Harbrow

Did we ever miss the poise and skills of Gia and Gilbee?

[Mantis]

Names?

Hill, Eagleton, Addison (6 posessions in a game) Harbrow

I think you have let a few off quite lightly.

You could easily add at least 4 to 6 others to the list of non-performers in big games.




Did we ever miss the poise and skills of Gia and Gilbee?

And a few players who normally show poise had it disappear. Shaggy had his worst kicking game for 5 years and was one player who we needed to help set us up out of defence.

[Mofra]

Names?

Hill, Eagleton, Addison (6 posessions in a game) Harbrow

Did we ever miss the poise and skills of Gia and Gilbee?
Probably a bit harsh on Harbrow - he was well beaten but never drops his head and he keeps his efforts up.

Welsh would just about be heading that list for mine, flat track bully.

[Stefcep]

Shaggy did this twice in 2 minutes and on both occassions we had a free player. The first time Johnno was wide open which I remember because the commentators said it about ten times afterwards. The 2nd time I can't remember who was open but he still just bombed it in.

Alas even if there is no one free in this situation I would like our players to wait find an open player even if it is 15m away and do a short pass which allows our players some time to leadl.


Ok I stand corrected i didn't see that Shaggy had an option, I watched on the telly so you don't see what's ahead of the player, but in other games i've been to and at other times last night the mids just had no-one to go to, you can see the ball carriers are looking and looking but there's nothing on, its a totally stationary forward line with all of the forwards covered. So they bomb it in hope.

With our kick-ins from a behind the same thing happens. time and see how long we take to make the kick in because there is nothing on. Yet when the opposition kicks in our forwards won't man up, they won't chase and try to keep the ball in the forward line. Just too many passengers waiting for someone else to make things happen.

[LostDoggy]

Bring on the A-League.

[aker39]

Bring on the A-League.


Is that so you can start calling for Ernie to be sacked.

[LostDoggy]

Nah, I like Ernest.

[LostDoggy]

I think there is a fair case that Fremantle probably self-destruct most in the league. Not sure? Pick up the Adelaide game and check back over how many games they have been winning at 3/4 time in the past few seasons only to stop and to lose.


I did say 'with apologies to Freo and Richmond'. But both those teams are actually rubbish. We're not.. clearly a top 4 team for the past couple of years but suck big time in the big games.

The fact that we lose by 1 or 2 points to top 4 teams is an indictment actually.. clearly good enough to win if application and attitude is there. Dropping marks as often as we do is another indictment on concentration and attitude.

Anyone who watched the Geelong-Hawthorn game will see what it takes to stay up as long as the Cats have.. just a ridiculous work ethic, a crazy application to winning the ball, and players LIFTING their standard above themselves when required, which I don't think we bring to the biggest games, relying more on skill and luck at times than just sheer hard-nosed determination.

[comrade]

Anyone who watched the Geelong-Hawthorn game will see what it takes to stay up as long as the Cats have.. just a ridiculous work ethic, a crazy application to winning the ball, and players LIFTING their standard above themselves when required, which I don't think we bring to the biggest games, relying more on skill and luck at times than just sheer hard-nosed determination.

How do we get to that level?

St Kilda did it over the pre-season – what can we do to ensure we reach it too?

[aker39]

Anyone who watched the Geelong-Hawthorn game will see what it takes to stay up as long as the Cats have.. just a ridiculous work ethic, a crazy application to winning the ball, and players LIFTING their standard above themselves when required, which I don't think we bring to the biggest games, relying more on skill and luck at times than just sheer hard-nosed determination.


And that sums up where the current Western Bulldog team is at.

[LostDoggy]

Shaggy did this twice in 2 minutes and on both occassions we had a free player. The first time Johnno was wide open which I remember because the commentators said it about ten times afterwards. The 2nd time I can't remember who was open but he still just bombed it in.

Alas even if there is no one free in this situation I would like our players to wait find an open player even if it is 15m away and do a short pass which allows our players some time to leadl.

This is my point -- people talk about the Saints having 5 loose defenders. If logic prevails, that should mean that there would be a few loose Dogs forwards as well, shouldn't it? It's a big forward 50, but we seem to have a predetermined spot to kick to (the hole 10m out from the top of the square), that teams that have done their homework will know and just plonk a free man in.

All our mids (except Coons, Aker and Gia) kick blind to this spot when they turn and play on quickly, which $hits me no end.. Murph, Eagle and Cross are the three biggest culprits, and they've been doing this for the past few years, which Eade has to take responsibility for.

Coons, Aker and Gia are the only mids who look up and kick to the SITUATION with any consistency, which is why they lead the team in assists. I guess you can't teach brains.. I'm just surprised Murph doesn't trust his own vision more than a blind bomb.

It's just laziness (not physical laziness, it's MENTAL laziness, which is harder to detect).

[LostDoggy]

How do we get to that level?

St Kilda did it over the pre-season – what can we do to ensure we reach it too?

It's a good question -- I've seen this problem when coaching tennis players in the past; the most talented ones tend to be the ones with this problem, as they learn to rely on their eye and skill more than application and hard work, as they can make up for slack footwork with speed and timing in the juniors. It's the slightly less talented ones that really put in the determination to succeed, and often go right past these more talented juniors when they hit the seniors, where talent is not enough. On the pro circuit, Federer was in this camp (relative to other pros) until he discovered some seriously hard work, and they say that if Safin worked anywhere near as hard as Nadal does, he would have been no.1 for ten years.

Both Geelong and St Kilda are classic cases in point -- teams made up of early draft picks (or father-son picks and good recruiting) and skillful, running players, becoming classic downhill skiers, knocking over clearly inferior teams but struggling with the mental and defensive side of their game against harder, more determined ones.. good enough to make the finals and have the occassional good win, but go to pot as often as not. In both cases, the collective penny seemed to drop after some home truths (Chapman dropped by Geelong, Dal Santo and Milne in the Saints' case).

The Dogs have been in the pre-penny dropping phase for a while now, but also have some structural deficiencies the Saints and Cats don't (essentially a strong KP player on every line).. I have defended and defended the team, calling for patience, but it seems that if the penny doesn't drop soon it may never will.

Having said that, interestingly, both Geelong and St Kilda entered their dominant phases AFTER being written off after great things were expected of their lists (both teams were talked off as having their 'premiership windows' shut just before their winning streaks). It's almost as if the pressure bubble bursting let them breathe .. the internal pressure to perform finally overtook the external expectations, and self-criticism and analysis became more important than how they looked to everyone else, which is always a good recipe for success.

It all starts from within -- we hear of standards being demanded of each other in Geelong and St Kilda.. our 'leadership team' has to take responsibility and the blame for this. Johnno has been a wonderful captain, but he's no longer able to drag this team behind him.. perhaps it's time to anoint a younger, steadier, hungrier player in his stead who will play at a high level every week and demand (along with the rest of his leadership team) the same of his whole team.

Matthew Boyd, I'm looking at you.

[LostDoggy]

Nobody is doubting the poor performance on Saturday - too many left it to, too few.

But at three quarter time we were only 18 points down, we had led them in hit-outs and clearances and had as many (albeit haphazard) entries into the forward 50.

One thing I am confident b0out is our fitness. We can match any side for fitness during the last quarter.

Late in the third quarter I felt a degree of confidence.

The injuries to Higgins and Murphy took out the two players most likely to force a turnaround and with one out of the mid-field rotation things were going to get even tougher.

Add to this the complete brain fade by Welsh and things turned to crap.

Yet, we were a chance at three quarter time with so many passengers. I'm not throwing my Membership away just yet.

Any team which allows Milne to kick 5 goals is missing something. Any team which time and time again fails to transistion back to the forward line leaving those left in the forward fifty simply overwhelmed by numbers is missing something.

These deficiencies are concerning but they are able to be fixed. Fix them and bring back Gilbee and Gia (two players able to hit forward targets) and we will bark again.

[LostDoggy]

These deficiencies are concerning but they are able to be fixed. Fix them and bring back Gilbee and Gia (two players able to hit forward targets) and we will bark again.

Agree with this. Hawthorn lost a few late last year.. lost twice to the Cats and also badly to the Dogs in the H&A but peaked in September so there's no need to throw the season away... it's just a few little things here and there which are collectively holding the team back.

[Topdog]

Matthew Boyd, I'm looking at you.

I would love for him to be captain. He has pushed himself so hard to get to where he is today and he has the respect of the rest of the group. He also has a pretty switched on football brain.

He also rates Hawthorn as a big chance this year if the make the finals.

[Mantis]

It's a good question -- I've seen this problem when coaching tennis players in the past; the most talented ones tend to be the ones with this problem, as they learn to rely on their eye and skill more than application and hard work, as they can make up for slack footwork with speed and timing in the juniors. It's the slightly less talented ones that really put in the determination to succeed, and often go right past these more talented juniors when they hit the seniors, where talent is not enough. On the pro circuit, Federer was in this camp (relative to other pros) until he discovered some seriously hard work, and they say that if Safin worked anywhere near as hard as Nadal does, he would have been no.1 for ten years.

Both Geelong and St Kilda are classic cases in point -- teams made up of early draft picks (or father-son picks and good recruiting) and skillful, running players, becoming classic downhill skiers, knocking over clearly inferior teams but struggling with the mental and defensive side of their game against harder, more determined ones.. good enough to make the finals and have the occassional good win, but go to pot as often as not. In both cases, the collective penny seemed to drop after some home truths (Chapman dropped by Geelong, Dal Santo and Milne in the Saints' case).

The Dogs have been in the pre-penny dropping phase for a while now, but also have some structural deficiencies the Saints and Cats don't (essentially a strong KP player on every line).. I have defended and defended the team, calling for patience, but it seems that if the penny doesn't drop soon it may never will.

Having said that, interestingly, both Geelong and St Kilda entered their dominant phases AFTER being written off after great things were expected of their lists (both teams were talked off as having their 'premiership windows' shut just before their winning streaks). It's almost as if the pressure bubble bursting let them breathe .. the internal pressure to perform finally overtook the external expectations, and self-criticism and analysis became more important than how they looked to everyone else, which is always a good recipe for success.

It all starts from within -- we hear of standards being demanded of each other in Geelong and St Kilda.. our 'leadership team' has to take responsibility and the blame for this. Johnno has been a wonderful captain, but he's no longer able to drag this team behind him.. perhaps it's time to anoint a younger, steadier, hungrier player in his stead who will play at a high level every week and demand (along with the rest of his leadership team) the same of his whole team.

Matthew Boyd, I'm looking at you.

Excellent post Lantern.

Earlier in the season when we had 4 or 5 experienced players out of form we continued to persevere with them rather than drop them. Most of those players were able to turn their form around, but at that point it was an excellent opportunity to make a statement and drop a 'name' player, give them a kick up the butt for not performing at the required level and make them find some form at the lower level. I guess the time has past for that this year, but I would hope if we get in a similar position next year that we would take the hard lined approach.

The leadership points have been brought up time and time again. I think it's improving, but until we get the same level effort across the board we aren't going to take the next step. I hope there were some home truths told to the group today as what some of them dished up wasn't acceptable. Hopefully the players who didn't perform learn from this and can find a way to play to the level that is accepted next time they are faced with a big challenge.

[immortalmike]

This is my point -- people talk about the Saints having 5 loose defenders. If logic prevails, that should mean that there would be a few loose Dogs forwards as well, shouldn't it? It's a big forward 50, but we seem to have a predetermined spot to kick to (the hole 10m out from the top of the square), that teams that have done their homework will know and just plonk a free man in.

All our mids (except Coons, Aker and Gia) kick blind to this spot when they turn and play on quickly, which $hits me no end.. Murph, Eagle and Cross are the three biggest culprits, and they've been doing this for the past few years, which Eade has to take responsibility for.

Coons, Aker and Gia are the only mids who look up and kick to the SITUATION with any consistency, which is why they lead the team in assists. I guess you can't teach brains.. I'm just surprised Murph doesn't trust his own vision more than a blind bomb.

It's just laziness (not physical laziness, it's MENTAL laziness, which is harder to detect).

You make a great point and I'd hope Eade has realized this in time for the finals. The amount of times on Saturday night that I saw loose Bulldogs in our forward 50 being ignored and players just bombing long to Goddard had me in fits of rage. My only issue with what you wrote is that Brad Johnson leads the league and our team in assists by a fair margin. Why no love for Johnno?

[LostDoggy]

You make a great point and I'd hope Eade has realized this in time for the finals. The amount of times on Saturday night that I saw loose Bulldogs in our forward 50 being ignored and players just bombing long to Goddard had me in fits of rage. My only issue with what you wrote is that Brad Johnson leads the league and our team in assists by a fair margin. Why no love for Johnno?

I love Johnno! :)

Guess he just slipped my mind as a mid as he's nominally a forward. (I know Murph is too!)

Ps. it's easy to forget how good Brad is sometimes. I think the term 'taken for granted' comes to mind.

[LostDoggy]

Sorry just finished reading up this thread. Another worst on ground was Eagleton. Other then the goal he kicked, he fumbled every ball he got or turned it over or kicked poorly.

[LostDoggy]

I was most concerned by the lack of second efforts from a number of our players. This is not something evident in the St Kilda or Geelong teams

[angelopetraglia]

Again. Self destruct.

Season on the line. Top four spot to play for.

Playing a team that hasn't won on the road for an eternity.

What do we do .... concede the first 9 goals!!!

Hit the front in the last quarter by 8 points and can't shut down the game.

How much pain does one have to take following this team.

DEVASTATED. DEVASTATED.

[Remi Moses]

Again. Self destruct.

Season on the line. Top four spot to play for.

Playing a team that hasn't won on the road for an eternity.

What do we do .... concede the first 9 goals!!!

Hit the front in the last quarter by 8 points and can't shut down the game.

How much pain does one have to take following this team.

DEVASTATED. DEVASTATED.

Just an utter disgrace,41 years of existence and continually let down by this pathetic football club:mad::mad::mad:I'm sure we'll get the usual spinabout uploading training blah blah blah,

[bornadog]

Just an utter disgrace,41 years of existence and continually let down by this pathetic football club:mad::mad::mad:I'm sure we'll get the usual spinabout uploading training blah blah blah,

Actually they did upload training and now they begin to tapper off for the last three games.

How can a team have 62 inside 50's and lose???

[AndrewP6]

Pathetic...just pathetic.

[bulldogtragic]

Everyone has said what i am thinking. I'm shattered.