19 Men On The Ground

[The Coon Dog]

When you're at the game & there's an interchange screw up, it's sometimes difficult to know what has happened.

Tonight at the start of the final term I understand that we had 19 men on the ground. Oops! I can see Rocket doing his lolly over that.

For those that had radios or watched TV, what actually happened? Who was the culprit?

Importantly, it occured when it was crucial that we kicked the first goal of the last quarter. Talk about taking the wind out of your sales! :rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Welsh was on the ground, then tried to run off after the ball was bounced.

[Rocco Jones]

Scott Welsh. Apparently he didn't the mach-up board.

I found it odd that we only have 2 players going to the bench. I asked the people I was with whether someone other than Higgins was hurt.

[The Coon Dog]

Welsh was on the ground, then tried to run off after the ball was bounced.

How could that happen?

Ever since Adam was a boy the magnetic board is lifted aloft at the break & the first thing you do is look to see where you are playing.

So, either a player (maybe Welsh) wasn't concentrating at 3/4 time or the magnetic board was wrong.

Either way it's amateurish at best.

[angelopetraglia]

That goal really hurt us.

We worked so hard to get within 3 goals. Must of been so deflating for that to occur.

[LostDoggy]

The worst part was how woeful the Dogs are at cheating -- Welshie could have snuck off quietly, but NOOOOO.. he had to make a song and dance about it, sprinting like a madman off etc and generally letting the whole world know what a f*** up it was.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

How could that happen?

Ever since Adam was a boy the magnetic board is lifted aloft at the break & the first thing you do is look to see where you are playing.

So, either a player (maybe Welsh) wasn't concentrating at 3/4 time or the magnetic board was wrong.

Either way it's amateurish at best.

I suspect the interchange stewart made another mistake ala SF 08. He looked pretty dirty with himself at the time and for quite a while.

It's beyond comprehension that at AFL level, you can't get these sorts of things right.

[Before I Die]

Scott Welsh. Apparently he didn't the mach-up board.


This was confirmed by Eade at his after match press conference. Though i think his words were "that Welsh didn't look at the match-up board" :)

[LostDoggy]

How could that happen?

Ever since Adam was a boy the magnetic board is lifted aloft at the break & the first thing you do is look to see where you are playing.

So, either a player (maybe Welsh) wasn't concentrating at 3/4 time or the magnetic board was wrong.

Either way it's amateurish at best.

I reckon your spot on, Welsh was concentrating.


That goal really hurt us.

We worked so hard to get within 3 goals. Must of been so deflating for that to occur.

Totally agree.

We worked so hard to get ourselves back into the game, that it just shot us down.

[Rocco Jones]

With Welsh being the extra player on the ground it was more like 18.2 men on the ground.

[Sockeye Salmon]

How could that happen?

Ever since Adam was a boy the magnetic board is lifted aloft at the break & the first thing you do is look to see where you are playing.

So, either a player (maybe Welsh) wasn't concentrating at 3/4 time or the magnetic board was wrong.

Either way it's amateurish at best.

Eade was asked what happened and he said Scott Welsh didn't look at the matchup board.

[The Coon Dog]

Eade was asked what happened and he said Scott Welsh didn't look at the matchup board.

Unforgivable, given the state of the game. Killed any hope we had.

[LostDoggy]

Poor old Scott well thats one for the boys on Mad Monday.

[The Coon Dog]

Poor old Scott well thats one for the boys on Mad Monday.
The crew on Before The Game can relax, next week's Tool of the Week has already been decided.

[soupman]

Just thank god that they changed the penalty for it, otherwise we could be staring at the scoreboard reading St.Kilda: 106 to Western Bulldogs: 7 after our score was wiped. That would be a real percentage killer.

[Remi Moses]

what a poor amauterish effort. lack of concentration :mad::mad:

[AndrewP6]

I understand people aiming squarely at Welsh, but in his defence, he tried to correct the error. My question is, with the myriad of support staff on and around the ground, and one man specifically there to check interchanges, how come no one picked it up before we were killed with the penalty? Yes, Welsh should have known he wasn't supposed to be on, but surely the people on the sides who have time to think of such things should pick up on it?

And while I'm here, the penalty is the most ridiculous, absurd, preposterous over-reaction to a relatively minor issue, which was only highlighted because of one match. It's kind of like, exceeding the speed limit, and getting jailed for 2 years! It killed any chance we may have had tonight. One day, it'll be THE deciding factor in a match. And Demetriou will still say "We're right"... the tosser.

[mighty_west]

So it happened at the centre bounce, why was the free taken from 10 metres out, and why didn't their ruckman take the free kick?

[Topdog]

I understand people aiming squarely at Welsh, but in his defence, he tried to correct the error. My question is, with the myriad of support staff on and around the ground, and one man specifically there to check interchanges, how come no one picked it up before we were killed with the penalty? Yes, Welsh should have known he wasn't supposed to be on, but surely the people on the sides who have time to think of such things should pick up on it?

And while I'm here, the penalty is the most ridiculous, absurd, preposterous over-reaction to a relatively minor issue, which was only highlighted because of one match. It's kind of like, exceeding the speed limit, and getting jailed for 2 years! It killed any chance we may have had tonight. One day, it'll be THE deciding factor in a match. And Demetriou will still say "We're right"... the tosser.

Do you know what the penalty was 2 years ago? Game over and instant loss.

And the penalty is a 50m penalty, the Saints had the ball in their F50 when it was noticed and piad thus "Saint Nick" had a free shot at goal.

[LostDoggy]

Even though we weren't playing fantastic footy, I thought we were half a chance...before that happened. Possibly the biggest deflater I've ever experienced at the footy!

[Sockeye Salmon]

So it happened at the centre bounce, why was the free taken from 10 metres out, and why didn't their ruckman take the free kick?

Because St. Kilda got the clearance and the ball was at CHF when the emergency umpire called it.

You raise an interesting point. The emergency umpire should have called it as soon as the ball was bounced, like boundary umpires do when someone runs inside the square. A 50m penalty on top of that and Stephen King is kicking from 30 out instead of Riewoldt from the goal line.

We should have shut up about it until St. Kilda had it in our forward pocket.

[LostDoggy]

We should have shut up about it until St. Kilda had it in our forward pocket.

What if we kicked a goal with the extra then fessed up. The penalty 0?

[G-Mo77]

What if we kicked a goal with the extra then fessed up. The penalty 0?

I think if they do a head count we go back to 0.0

If we got up and won that game you can bet that St. Kilda would have put in an official protest. It just shouldn't happen at AFL level. Cost us any chance we had at winning that game.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I think if they do a head count we go back to 0.0

If we got up and won that game you can bet that St. Kilda would have put in an official protest. It just shouldn't happen at AFL level. Cost us any chance we had at winning that game.

Sydney had 19 on the ground v North last year and scored the point that drew the game. They copped a $25,000 fine.

I'm pretty sure that whole head count rule got scrapped.

[G-Mo77]

Sydney had 19 on the ground v North last year and scored the point that drew the game. They copped a $25,000 fine.

I'm pretty sure that whole head count rule got scrapped.

We're not Sydney though ;)

[Ozza]

The head count rule no longer means you have your score wiped.

One of my mates does the match ups board/bench for the saints. He picked it straight away and the saints were moments away from calling for a head count - the message was going out at the time the free kick was called.

It was a monumnetal cock up by our interchange bloke.

[AndrewP6]

Do you know what the penalty was 2 years ago? Game over and instant loss.

And the penalty is a 50m penalty, the Saints had the ball in their F50 when it was noticed and piad thus "Saint Nick" had a free shot at goal.

I know, I still think it's ridiculous... most often an "extra" man has little impact... give it to the opposing team from the centre, but hand them a goal... crazy..not as crazy as the old penalty!

[Ozza]

I've played in a game where the head count was called (by us) - we thought the opposition would lose their whole score - but as it turned out they lost all of their score for that quarter - which was only a point. But losing a whole match score is way to big a penalty - I'm glad it is no longer the case.

[Sockeye Salmon]

It was a monumnetal cock up by our interchange bloke.

It was a monumental cock up by Scott Welsh

[Ozza]

It was a monumental cock up by Scott Welsh

Welsh too - obviously - but how is it that the saints interchange knew we had 19 on the ground and we didn't. Someone's not doing their job properly.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Welsh too - obviously - but how is it that the saints interchange knew we had 19 on the ground and we didn't. Someone's not doing their job properly.

We knew, we just couldn't get him off before they bounced the ball.

[LostDoggy]

That was a major stuff up, we had worked really hard in the 3rd quarter and to hand them a goal on a silver platter was crap.
It did look like the saints had 19 on the ground in the second quarter.... or were we just bad?

[LostDoggy]

I noticed it about 15-20 seconds before the first bounce. There were only 2 players running to the bench, one was Murphy and I can't remember the other and of course Higgins was already off the ground. So I then thought 'oh no, who else is injured?' but I counted the ground and there were 19. Admittedly it's easier on level 3 to count the players out there then it is at the boundary line, but surely someone there could have noticed a touch quicker that there were only 2 on the bench and called for Cross on the wing to run off. I was surprised the emergency umpire took so long to call it, but it of course worked even more in their favour. It's such an unprofessional thing to do, there really aren't any excuses and in such an important game it just shouldn't happen.

[mjp]

Was it really a bigger mistake than the 100's of others made on the night? Was it really the 'turning point'?

Sure - it was disappointing. But given Eade is often speaking to the group whilst the assistants are still pulling players aside for extended chats, I am surprised it doesn't happen MORE often. It is simple to say he should have checked the match-up board, but if you are speaking to someone about what you are going to do, you then have every right to think you will be playing in that spot upon the resumption of play.

[The Coon Dog]

Was it really a bigger mistake than the 100's of others made on the night? Was it really the 'turning point'?

Sure - it was disappointing. But given Eade is often speaking to the group whilst the assistants are still pulling players aside for extended chats, I am surprised it doesn't happen MORE often. It is simple to say he should have checked the match-up board, but if you are speaking to someone about what you are going to do, you then have every right to think you will be playing in that spot upon the resumption of play.
Yeah, I reckon it was bigger, much bigger. Eade would have drummed into the players what he wanted them to do at the start of the last quarter & paramount would have been for us to kick the first goal, not serve it up on a platter for St.Kilda. Took the wind right out of our sails.

I think you're being very kind to the players mjp, very kind.

[AndrewP6]

I think given the massive penalty for what can be a miniscule infraction, that AFL clubs would be going to great lengths to tell players what they're doing in the quarter breaks, instead of relying on players checking the board...doesn't seem that hard to name four players starting each quarter on the bench. Wouldn't take long, and they could call them out with the whole group in attendance.

[soupman]

I think given the massive penalty for what can be a miniscule infraction, that AFL clubs would be going to great lengths to tell players what they're doing in the quarter breaks, instead of relying on players checking the board...doesn't seem that hard to name four players starting each quarter on the bench. Wouldn't take long, and they could call them out with the whole group in attendance.

I can't even recall it happening ever before, at any level of football.

It's simple, everyone looks at the board in order to determine where they are starting for the quarter. Even if Welsh was given instructions on how to play that position, he still should check out the board, which is held above the coaches head during the entire squad address. It is not hard to do, and it is a massive blunder.

I believe the penalty was just, it wasn't just someone running on a second too early, it was us having too many players on the ground. Had we won the clearance we would have had an extra player up forward, which believe it or not is a major advantage.

It was Welsh's fault, fair and square, not the coaches for not reading out the names, or anybody elses for that matter. I hope he had to do that "roll the dice" game we have for when people screw up (as in late for training).

[Twodogs]

Was it really a bigger mistake than the 100's of others made on the night? Was it really the 'turning point'?

Sure - it was disappointing. But given Eade is often speaking to the group whilst the assistants are still pulling players aside for extended chats, I am surprised it doesn't happen MORE often. It is simple to say he should have checked the match-up board, but if you are speaking to someone about what you are going to do, you then have every right to think you will be playing in that spot upon the resumption of play.


It wasnt the turning point but it was a very unproffesional thing to do. Like Coon Dog said Eade would have absolutely drummed home the importance of getting the first goal and to see it coughed up for such an avoidable act (not to mention plain dumb!) was mega frustrating.

We'd slogged our guts out for a quarter to get back in the contest and one act like that just wasted all that work because from then on the contest was over.

[Go_Dogs]

I noticed this from where I was sitting and it was very frustrating, it was plain to see that we had an extra number.

These things happen, but at this level it's unforgivable - it simply should not happen. Yes, Welsh should have read the board, but one of the hundreds of stewards sitting on the bench should have noticed it.

[AndrewP6]

I noticed this from where I was sitting and it was very frustrating, it was plain to see that we had an extra number.

These things happen, but at this level it's unforgivable - it simply should not happen. Yes, Welsh should have read the board, but one of the hundreds of stewards sitting on the bench should have noticed it.

Thank you...

[LostDoggy]

All I can say......The worst "Head in your hands" moment ever!! :eek::(

[mjp]

Eade would have drummed into the players what he wanted them to do at the start of the last quarter & paramount would have been for us to kick the first goal, not serve it up on a platter for St.Kilda.

Do you really think he would have said this?

You have to be careful when saying things like this - the players might actually believe you. And St Kilda are just good enough to kick the first goal of ANY given quarter regardless...so then what do the players think? They are more likely to drop their heads after a goal if you have just finished telling them how important it is that they simply cannot allow it to happen.

We went from 3 goals down to 4 goals down...big deal. Lake then allowed Riewoldt an uncontested shot on goal (he missed luckily), Harbrow let Milne get goal-side (again) and conceded a goal...the last quarter was a series of poor footy decisions yet somehow an administrative one is the biggest problem we had? Give me a break.

Back to my original post, I dont understand why our assistants continue talking to individuals AFTER Eade has called the group together. Cameron in particular seems to have a license to do this. The board is held up behind Eade, yet the assistants are taking players off to the side and discussing things with them whilst the senior coach is addressing the group? And not looking at the board is the players fault?

Simplify. The higher the pressure, the simpler things have to be. Players have a lot to worry about - coaches always assume they 'know' the little things (like where they might be playing) because the coaches discussed it in the box before the break...and, well, the coaches know and isn't it obvious?

This mistake has been blown out of proportion because a player destined for the bench stayed on the field - I wonder how many times we end up with an extra man forward or back? Pretty often given the number of times I see players sprinting around the squared as the umpires are getting into position. You say I am being 'soft' on them? I say it isn't that easy to play the game and the less things are assumed the better off the playing group will be...4 match day coaches and no-one asks if the players all know what they are doing in the last quarter? No-one makes sure that they have checked the match-up board?

Sorry - no way am I putting this on the player.

[AndrewP6]

Do you really think he would have said this?

You have to be careful when saying things like this - the players might actually believe you. And St Kilda are just good enough to kick the first goal of ANY given quarter regardless...so then what do the players think? They are more likely to drop their heads after a goal if you have just finished telling them how important it is that they simply cannot allow it to happen.

We went from 3 goals down to 4 goals down...big deal. Lake then allowed Riewoldt an uncontested shot on goal (he missed luckily), Harbrow let Milne get goal-side (again) and conceded a goal...the last quarter was a series of poor footy decisions yet somehow an administrative one is the biggest problem we had? Give me a break.

Back to my original post, I dont understand why our assistants continue talking to individuals AFTER Eade has called the group together. Cameron in particular seems to have a license to do this. The board is held up behind Eade, yet the assistants are taking players off to the side and discussing things with them whilst the senior coach is addressing the group? And not looking at the board is the players fault?

Simplify. The higher the pressure, the simpler things have to be. Players have a lot to worry about - coaches always assume they 'know' the little things (like where they might be playing) because the coaches discussed it in the box before the break...and, well, the coaches know and isn't it obvious?

This mistake has been blown out of proportion because a player destined for the bench stayed on the field - I wonder how many times we end up with an extra man forward or back? Pretty often given the number of times I see players sprinting around the squared as the umpires are getting into position. You say I am being 'soft' on them? I say it isn't that easy to play the game and the less things are assumed the better off the playing group will be...4 match day coaches and no-one asks if the players all know what they are doing in the last quarter? No-one makes sure that they have checked the match-up board?

Sorry - no way am I putting this on the player.

Yeah...what he said!

[The Coon Dog]

I agree with most of your posts mjp, but not in this instance. Welsh is the culprit, but its nice to see you sticking up for him.

Obviously I don't have your coaching experience & hands on in the box on matchday & all that goes with it, but purely as a supporter & spectator what Welsh did was amateur hour & something you don't even see in under 10's.

[aker39]

Simplify. The higher the pressure, the simpler things have to be. Players have a lot to worry about - coaches always assume they 'know' the little things (like where they might be playing) because the coaches discussed it in the box before the break...and, well, the coaches know and isn't it obvious?



All the more reason for a player to make sure he checks the board.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Do you really think he would have said this?

You have to be careful when saying things like this - the players might actually believe you. And St Kilda are just good enough to kick the first goal of ANY given quarter regardless...so then what do the players think? They are more likely to drop their heads after a goal if you have just finished telling them how important it is that they simply cannot allow it to happen.

We went from 3 goals down to 4 goals down...big deal. Lake then allowed Riewoldt an uncontested shot on goal (he missed luckily), Harbrow let Milne get goal-side (again) and conceded a goal...the last quarter was a series of poor footy decisions yet somehow an administrative one is the biggest problem we had? Give me a break.

Back to my original post, I dont understand why our assistants continue talking to individuals AFTER Eade has called the group together. Cameron in particular seems to have a license to do this. The board is held up behind Eade, yet the assistants are taking players off to the side and discussing things with them whilst the senior coach is addressing the group? And not looking at the board is the players fault?

Simplify. The higher the pressure, the simpler things have to be. Players have a lot to worry about - coaches always assume they 'know' the little things (like where they might be playing) because the coaches discussed it in the box before the break...and, well, the coaches know and isn't it obvious?

This mistake has been blown out of proportion because a player destined for the bench stayed on the field - I wonder how many times we end up with an extra man forward or back? Pretty often given the number of times I see players sprinting around the squared as the umpires are getting into position. You say I am being 'soft' on them? I say it isn't that easy to play the game and the less things are assumed the better off the playing group will be...4 match day coaches and no-one asks if the players all know what they are doing in the last quarter? No-one makes sure that they have checked the match-up board?

Sorry - no way am I putting this on the player.

How many games of footy did you play, Mike? Ever start on the ground when you were supposed to be on the bench? Me neither.

100% this is Welsh's fault. He made a blue you wouldn't see in U18's and has to cop it.

I agree with your first paragraph, perhaps Eade wouldn't have highlighted it, but had we snagged the first goal we would have been in the game right up to our eyeballs.

I'm not saying we would have kicked it, and even if we did we were still no sure thing to win; but after Welsh's cock-up it was game over.

[Twodogs]

Back to my original post, I dont understand why our assistants continue talking to individuals AFTER Eade has called the group together. Cameron in particular seems to have a license to do this. The board is held up behind Eade, yet the assistants are taking players off to the side and discussing things with them whilst the senior coach is addressing the group? And not looking at the board is the players fault?

I'm pretty sure that next quarter's onfield line up and positioning are held up at the start of the quarter break(or whatever the time in between the actual quaters is called), precisely so that the players can quickly check it, know where they are supposed to be and then can focus on the coaching group's message.



Sorry - no way am I putting this on the player.


Someone has to carry the can for this Mike and this time it's the player that's at fault.

[AndrewP6]

Funny moment (for me, anyway!)...in the third quarter, as I looked through the binoculars at the Dogs bench, I began having heart palpitations... "I can only see three players!"... I searched frantically up and down, and began preparing to launch myself in desperation on to the field, to provide a distraction, so we could straighten things out - which would have been somewhat dangerous, given my seating position on Level 3!

Certain death (and a fifty meter penalty) was averted, when to my delight I saw Huddo walking the boundary...one must never jump to conclusions! (nor jump from Level 3 at KenRyan Stadium)