Williams: Where is he at?

[bulldogtragic]

Firstly, i'm not scapegoaing him and don't want this to be Williams bashing thread.

Secondly, i've paid close attention to him the last two weeks. For me, his reading of the play is very poor. His skills are ok, but not great. His decision making is questionable. His intensity can also be questioned i think. If he wasn't the great white hope, i'm not sure he would be the instant selection that he is.

So where is he at?

[AndrewP6]

Still learning the game, but you're right, his reading of the play is bad. I'll stick with him for now. He's done it the hard way, that's for sure - injuries and so on.

[Rance Fan]

Wheres he at?.. LOST

[GVGjr]

I'm very positive about him but I acknowledge he still has a long way to go. I mentioned last week that he gave Bradley too much latitude and I think he did the same with Kennedy but I think he can learn a lot more about how to be a better defender.

[Ozza]

Williams has quite a number of weaknesses - and in many areas he can improve but what worries me most is how he continually loses the ball and his positioning when its in the air. I think giving him a crack down forward may well make him a better defender (just by running at the ball - attacking the contest) - but its probably too late in the year for that sort of experimenting.

[chef]

Can someone please name me some key defenders under 23 years of age who are better and more consistent than Williams?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Hmmmmm.
I have been a supporter and he looks fabulous sometimes.
Maybe he'll just get better with more confidence and experience.

BUT................. if Gold Coast were to poach him and we were compensated with a high draft pick.............?
Well, at this stage, I wouldn't be heartbroken.

[LostDoggy]

I reckon we all expect way to much from him, he has only played 32 games, has missed a hell of a lot of footy due to injuries and bad luck. I believe that the only way he will get better is to give him AFL game time and let his confidence grow. Same as Everitt, give em a go.

[Ozza]

*Reply is to Chef's post*

Whether they are better or more consistent is up to you but the key defenders under 23 that come to mind are:

Sam Gilbert
Luke McGuane
Alipate Carlile
Lachlan Hansen
Bower and Grigg from Carlton (not sure how 'key position they are'.)
Harry Taylor has just turned 23.
Tayte Pears
Grima
Mitch Brown
Nathan Brown (Collingwood)

and depending on whether you see them as Key position or not - Hurn, Birchall, Frawley and Gwilt are all under 23.

[DOG GOD]

Put it this way, if we could have Williams and Everitt OR Pears and Hurley, i would pick the ESS pair hands down.

[chef]

*Reply is to Chef's post*

Whether they are better or more consistent is up to you but the key defenders under 23 that come to mind are:

Sam Gilbert
Luke McGuane
Alipate Carlile
Lachlan Hansen
Bower and Grigg from Carlton (not sure how 'key position they are'.)
Harry Taylor has just turned 23.
Tayte Pears
Grima

and depending on whether you see them as Key position or not - Hurn, Birchall, Frawley and Gwilt are all under 23.

Nathan Brown(Collingwood), Mitch Brown, Eric Mackenzie(WCE), McGuane, Taylor, Pears, Chaplin, Carlile, Jamison(Blues) and Zac Dawson are the only young KP players IMO at a comparable age. None of them are consistently better players IMO.

[chef]

Put it this way, if we could have Williams and Everitt OR Pears and Hurley, i would pick the ESS pair hands down.

Everitt isn't a KP.

[Ozza]

Nathan Brown(Collingwood), Mitch Brown, Eric Mackenzie(WCE), McGuane, Taylor, Pears, Chaplin, Carlile, Jamison(Blues) and Zac Dawson are the only young KP players IMO at a comparable age. None of them are consistently better players IMO.

Sam Gilbert isn't?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a dig at Tom Williams - I'm just listing the players as per the request on your post. I certainly hope it clicks for Williams. But he is a long way off being a reliable and consistent big man right now.

Having said that - I think quite a few of the above are ahead of him.

[chef]

Sam Gilbert isn't?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a dig at Tom Williams - I'm just listing the players as per the request on your post. I certainly hope it clicks for Williams. But he is a long way off being a reliable and consistent big man right now.

Having said that - I think quite a few of the above are ahead of him.

Fair enough. I didn't see Gilbert as a KP player, he's more like St Kilda's version of Hargrave(but can go forward and kick goals) to me. Which of the players on my list would be ahead of Williams and why?

[LostDoggy]

It's perhaps the fault of others around the club (or agents, premature-ejaculating fans, etc) who have for the past 2-3 years been doing nothing but touting Tom as the best thing since sliced bread.

[The Coon Dog]

It's perhaps the fault of others around the club (or agents, premature-ejaculating fans, etc) who have for the past 2-3 years been doing nothing but touting Tom as the best thing since sliced bread.
Why do you feel the need to constantly denigrate other supporters/posters in your post purely because they have a different opinion to yours?

[LostDoggy]

Why do you feel the need to constantly denigrate other supporters/posters in your post purely because they have a different opinion to yours?

I'm offering my opinion, tough shit if you don't like it.

Some reality checks are in order on this forum.

[The Coon Dog]

I'm offering my opinion, tough shit if you don't like it.

Some reality checks are in order on this forum.

I don't mind you offering your opinion, that's what this forum was created for, but you're mistaken if you think your behavior is appreciated, warranted or even needed here.

[LostDoggy]

My post is not offensive, it's a frank assessment of the hype that has been built around Williams. I note with interest how you don't actually contest what I've written, you just whine about my style of delivery.

Stop being such a goody-goody.

[ledge]

I see what you mean Dante, even the media have praised him all along but not a lot is coming to fruit so far.
How long do we wait and is the forward line an option?

We seem to have talls who are fitted in one area only eg, Everitt, Williams and Lake, although Lake is moved forward at times and to me could certainly kick a heap of goals in a season.
The biggest problem with Lake is we rob Peter to pay Paul.

Everitt on a wing maybe and Williams as a forward, I am not fully sure on Williams being a forward but is it worth trying in pre season?

I have always been a believer in trying all options then you dont die wondering.
Problem is the position we are in its a huge gamble at this time of year.

[chef]

I see what you mean Dante, even the media have praised him all along but not a lot is coming to fruit so far.
How long do we wait and is the forward line an option?

We seem to have talls who are fitted in one area only eg, Everitt, Williams and Lake, although Lake is moved forward at times and to me could certainly kick a heap of goals in a season.
The biggest problem with Lake is we rob Peter to pay Paul.

Everitt on a wing maybe and Williams as a forward, I am not fully sure on Williams being a forward but is it worth trying in pre season?

I have always been a believer in trying all options then you dont die wondering.
Problem is the position we are in its a huge gamble at this time of year.

Could he be played in the ruck like Clark and Ryder?

[bulldogtragic]

Could he be played in the ruck like Clark and Ryder?
Now that's some wonderful left of centre thinking. If Mike Pike can play there and do well enough, that's a great thought. Worth thinking about for sure. Clark, White, Ryder and Sellar have all made an impact in the ruck, whilst they were previously languishing in KP posts (compared to their current form).

[DOG GOD]

Everitt isn't a KP.

Maybe not yet, but if lake leaves he wont have a choice :(

[The Coon Dog]

My post is not offensive, it's a frank assessment of the hype that has been built around Williams. I note with interest how you don't actually contest what I've written, you just whine about my style of delivery.

Stop being such a goody-goody.

Calling our supporters premature-ejaculating fans is not offensive? get real.

So you want to turn this board into something where name calling is acceptable? Big Footy's the forum for you!

[LostDoggy]

Calling our supporters premature-ejaculating fans is not offensive? get real.

No, premature ejaculation is a treatable condition.

Call 1-300-LAST-LONGER.

[Desipura]

No, premature ejaculation is a treatable condition.

Call 1-300-LAST-LONGER.
Why dont you call 1-300 get the f%$% out of this site

[LostDoggy]

Why dont you call 1-300 get the f%$% out of this site

Ahh yes, the old "ban the person whose views don't sit well with you". Soft option.

[bulldogtragic]

Ahh yes, the old "ban the person whose views don't sit well with you". Soft option.
Your childish views have nothing to do with it. Your childish behaviour has everything to do with it. If you don't like all the people trying to ask you politely to pull your head in, then go someone else where they like your childish behaviour. No-one here does, so pull your head in or leave, or better yet, get banned.

[Desipura]

a number of Dante's views I actually agree with, his ways of expressing them are childish and with no substance.

[LostDoggy]

Your childish views have nothing to do with it. Your childish behaviour has everything to do with it. If you don't like all the people trying to ask you politely to pull your head in, then go someone else where they like your childish behaviour. No-one here does, so pull your head in or leave, or better yet, get banned.

A lot of people have been premature on Williams; pundits and fans a like. There is nothing wrong with me saying so. If you can't handle an opinion that's a bit controversial, bad luck.

I'm sure if you actually deal with the substance of what I've said, it is simply stating what I believe to be a fact - that fans, pundits amongst others have set the bar for Tom Williams rather high, and the expectations we have of him are perhaps unfair.

I'm not going anywhere.

:)

[bulldogtragic]

A lot of people have been premature on Williams; pundits and fans a like. There is nothing wrong with me saying so. If you can't handle an opinion that's a bit controversial, bad luck.

I'm sure if you actually deal with the substance of what I've said, it is simply stating what I believe to be a fact - that fans, pundits amongst others have set the bar for Tom Williams rather high, and the expectations we have of him are perhaps unfair.

I'm not going anywhere.

:)
Fair enough. This post i completely agree with. This message has a critical opinion, but has basis (and merit i beleive). Others do not. I don't care which people stay and post on this forum, only that this great site doesn't descend into childish behaviour. But for he post, I agree, many have been suckered into to thinking he is the messiah. At this point in time, he is not the messiah.

[Sedat]

Ahh yes, the old "ban the person whose views don't sit well with you". Soft option.
That is bullshit. There is plenty of robust, often heated, discussion and fervent differences of opinion on 'woof'. The soft option is waste bandwidth by shouting out sloganeering crap without actually thinking about what you post and adding any constructive discussion to the topics at hand.

Not a Hahn fan? Explain specifically why. Not happy with Eade's coaching performance on Saturday? Cite some specific examples of what he did or did not do to address issues during the game. Think Williams is a spud? Tell us what parts of his game are sub-par and what needs addressing.

You're obviously a keen fan of 'Clerks' (I just named my 3rd born after the same character as your username - although my Italian wife thinks we named him after some famous Italian poet) so you obviously have good taste, but you need to pull your head in and respect the rules and regulations laid out by the moderators of this board - this site has been created so that Bulldogs supporters can discuss issues pertaining to our club in a manner that fleshes out the issues in a constructive manner. None of us are interested in the tedious bumper sticker "we will not accept mediocrity" style shout-outs - I used to write that sort of shit back in 2003 on BF and realised soon enough that it adds nothing to the discussion.

In short, tell us anything you want, but back it up with some context - you'll find this to be the best possible medium available to Dogs supporters to discuss Dogs related issues and find out first-hand information about our club.

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough. This post i completely agree with. This message has a critical opinion, but has basis (and merit i beleive). Others do not. I don't care which people stay and post on this forum, only that this great site doesn't descend into childish behaviour. But for he post, I agree, many have been suckered into to thinking he is the messiah. At this point in time, he is not the messiah.

Can I just say, this messiah business has me thirsty.. anyone turned water into wine lately?

What we need is a balanced side with some elite footballers + guns + good ordinary players, who all play hard and consistently, stick to a plan, and play for each other. It's football, not theology.

Besides, if anyone is going to be the messiah it's Ayce Cordy. Or Boumann. Or Grant. Blah blah blah. If Chris(t) Grant couldn't win us a premiership we'd be silly to think Williams would.

[LostDoggy]

respect the rules and regulations laid out by the moderators of this board

Is it really a breach of rules to say that some people (whether they be fans or pundits) have been premature on Williams? And if I'm slightly colourful in the way I make the point, is that really such a bad thing? You did after all just concede that there are often robust discussions here. Are people really offended by the term I've used in this thread 'premature ejaculators' - or are we being just a tad precious?

[ledge]

Could he be played in the ruck like Clark and Ryder?

Well thats another option we could look at.

[Sedat]

Is it really a breach of rules to say that some people (whether they be fans or pundits) have been premature on Williams? And if I'm slightly colourful in the way I make the point, is that really such a bad thing? You did after all just concede that there are often robust discussions here. Are people really offended by the term I've used in this thread 'premature ejaculators' - or are we being just a tad precious?
Desipura sums it up here:


a number of Dante's views I actually agree with, his ways of expressing them are childish

Back to the topic, on the subject of Williams potentially having spells in the ruck, both Ryder and Clark did a lot of this in their junior footy so it comes naturally to them. Williams barely played any school footy and what he did play I suspect wasn't in the ruck (correct me if I'm wrong).

He stunk it up against Kennedy but the reality is that this role is his go. The L-plates should really be off him now and we should continue to give him tough assignments against the tallest opposition key forward. No guarantees on Lake beyond this season, and even if he stays we need key defensive cover. At 198cms, strong as an ox and lightning quick for his size, Williams has all the physical tools for this role. What he lacks in awareness, reading of the play and smarts, he should be able to learn as his career develops.

[LostDoggy]

"Childish and without substance", yet no one has disagreed yet or put forward an opposing view. And it does have substance. For about 3-5 years the buzz, the scuttlebutt, the punditry etc - has all been, "Tom Williams, he's gonna be good". "Tom Williams, could be anything that boy". These sorts of things get people expecting the kid to be the next Glen Jakovich. Now that he's not living up to that hype - you want to tell me that it's without substance that some people have been PREMATURE?

Carry on.

PS: Are you offended by what I've posted in this thread? Seriously.

[LostDoggy]

Put it this way, if we could have Williams and Everitt OR Pears and Hurley, i would pick the ESS pair hands down.

Yes Essendon are doing so well with those two.

[Drunken Bum]

Yes Essendon are doing so well with those two.

Isnt really the point i think Ernie, more to the point would be would we be better off with them rather than Everritt and Williams, unfortunately not something i can answer personally due to the limited amount of football i get to see but from what i can gather from others we would probably at least break even.

[LostDoggy]

Isnt really the point i think Ernie, more to the point would be would we be better off with them rather than Everritt and Williams, unfortunately not something i can answer personally due to the limited amount of football i get to see but from what i can gather from others we would probably at least break even.

If we going to compare players to prove that point then I'd say prefer Franklin and Riewoldt.

Not sure how you say we would be better off with 2 similar aged young players when they are different in terms roles within the club and structures they play to. Both Wiliams and Everitt looked good in their debut season as well. Also you can't tell who will be a better player over time. We can measure Essendon's position on the ladder compared to ours.

[DOG GOD]

Ernie, yes at this stage i would rather have Pears and Hurley instead of Williams and Everitt. Why?

Pears and Hurley have a body that doesnt get pushed off the ball. Pears has taken big fwds like Brown and held his own. Both have a kamikaze approach to get the ball, and will use their bodies to their advantage.

Hurly has shown that he can take a pack mark and can play fwd and back.
Both have good poise and use the ball well.

Williams looks all at sea on opponents when it comes to the flight of the ball.
Everitt's lathargic approach to a contest is a worry.

I'm hoping that Williams and Everitt can really make it in our best 22 over the next 10 years, BUT as i believe at the moment, i would rather have Pears and Hurley in my backline.

And thats my opinion.

[LostDoggy]

You might care to ask Scott Lucas who he would prefer given Williams smashed him when they played against one another a few weeks ago.

[bornadog]

You might care to ask Scott Lucas who he would prefer given Williams smashed him when they played against one another a few weeks ago.

We have all expected a lot from Williams since being drafted (pick6) behind Buddy (pick5). He is the same height, weight as Buddy, very athletic, however, he came from a rugby background. Unfortunatelty, he has only played 32 games due to injuries and the fact is, he is still learning the game. Buddy has now played 100 games.

We all expect he is going to smash all comers, but it just ain't going to happen until he has at least 50 games under his belt, in other words at least another full season, and injury free.

At the end of the day, he gives us structure in the backline. He will get beaten every now and then, but he will learn. As long as he has the hunger to play AFL, he is prepared to work hard and his intensity and confidence is up, I am happy to see him continue at CHB.

[Go_Dogs]

You might care to ask Scott Lucas who he would prefer given Williams smashed him when they played against one another a few weeks ago.

Pears has had a fantastic season, probably enough to eclipse our two by himself.

Hurley is a first year player and has been very, very good. His kicking is sublime, and he is just going to be an out and out star. Everything he does screams class.

At this stage, I'd certainly prefer the two that the Bombers have.


What the case will be in a few years time though, who knows.

[LostDoggy]

We have all expected a lot from Williams since being drafted (pick6) behind Buddy (pick5). He is the same height, weight as Buddy, very athletic, however, he came from a rugby background. Unfortunatelty, he has only played 32 games due to injuries and the fact is, he is still learning the game. Buddy has now played 100 games.

We all expect he is going to smash all comers, but it just ain't going to happen until he has at least 50 games under his belt, in other words at least another full season, and injury free.

At the end of the day, he gives us structure in the backline. He will get beaten every now and then, but he will learn. As long as he has the hunger to play AFL, he is prepared to work hard and his intensity and confidence is up, I am happy to see him continue at CHB.

Sound reasoning at last.

Well put

[Mofra]

We have all expected a lot from Williams since being drafted (pick6) behind Buddy (pick5). He is the same height, weight as Buddy, very athletic, however, he came from a rugby background. Unfortunatelty, he has only played 32 games due to injuries and the fact is, he is still learning the game. Buddy has now played 100 games.

We all expect he is going to smash all comers, but it just ain't going to happen until he has at least 50 games under his belt, in other words at least another full season, and injury free.

At the end of the day, he gives us structure in the backline. He will get beaten every now and then, but he will learn. As long as he has the hunger to play AFL, he is prepared to work hard and his intensity and confidence is up, I am happy to see him continue at CHB.
Spot on, agree 100%

[LostDoggy]

Ernie, yes at this stage i would rather have Pears and Hurley instead of Williams and Everitt. Why?

Pears and Hurley have a body that doesnt get pushed off the ball. Pears has taken big fwds like Brown and held his own. Both have a kamikaze approach to get the ball, and will use their bodies to their advantage.

Hurly has shown that he can take a pack mark and can play fwd and back.
Both have good poise and use the ball well.

Williams looks all at sea on opponents when it comes to the flight of the ball.
Everitt's lathargic approach to a contest is a worry.

I'm hoping that Williams and Everitt can really make it in our best 22 over the next 10 years, BUT as i believe at the moment, i would rather have Pears and Hurley in my backline.

And thats my opinion.

One has to ask if that's a player issue or a coaching issue if the Essendon pair both have more developed bodies (though this is debatable) and more competitive attitudes -- are the Dogs' kids hungry enough? One would suggest not, when some get a free ride into the team regardless of form while others have their cards marked very early on, which is a coaching issue. Inconsistency in dealing with youngsters always comes back to bite a team on the bum.

[bornadog]

One has to ask if that's a player issue or a coaching issue if the Essendon pair both have more developed bodies .

Some kids develop earlier than others Example, Ayce Cordy is tall and very light, Roughead is also tall but solid and will be ready to play next season. Ayce maynot make his debut till 2011 unless his body develops alot quicker.

[LostDoggy]

Some kids develop earlier than others Example, Ayce Cordy is tall and very light, Roughead is also tall but solid and will be ready to play next season. Ayce maynot make his debut till 2011 unless his body develops alot quicker.

That's true -- so why do the ones at the Dogs always take longer than most? Some never develop at all, and the number of injury prone ones we've picked up over the years is far higher than average.

Sure, some of us have put this down to luck, but luck is for losers. Clayton's propensity for light-bodied, light-years-from-AFL-ready bodies is well documented, but the injury proneness is more of an issue.

Tim Walsh (well documented), Tom Williams (everything bar the kitchen sink), Jarrad Grant (OP), and Roughhead (shoulder) are only the most obvious examples of tall high draft picks that have struggled to some extent (some more than others) with injury that has set them back to some extent. One has to query again the quality of due diligence carried out prior to the draft -- sure, every club does their 'homework', we just seem to be worse at it than most (especially when it comes to tall players, but our medical department also struggle with guys like Murphy, Higgins and Cooney, all of whom have not had a decent run at it in years, if ever).

[bornadog]

That's true -- so why do the ones at the Dogs always take longer than most? Some never develop at all, and the number of injury prone ones we've picked up over the years is far higher than average.

Sure, some of us have put this down to luck, but luck is for losers. Clayton's propensity for light-bodied, light-years-from-AFL-ready bodies is well documented, but the injury proneness is more of an issue.

Tim Walsh (well documented), Tom Williams (everything bar the kitchen sink), Jarrad Grant (OP), and Roughhead (shoulder) are only the most obvious examples of tall high draft picks that have struggled to some extent (some more than others) with injury that has set them back to some extent. One has to query again the quality of due diligence carried out prior to the draft -- sure, every club does their 'homework', we just seem to be worse at it than most (especially when it comes to tall players, but our medical department also struggle with guys like Murphy, Higgins and Cooney, all of whom have not had a decent run at it in years, if ever).

Are you just referring to talls?

[LostDoggy]

Williams output is certainly inconsistent, he has played very good games at times with strong performances on Lucas this year and against Franklin and an out of form Riewoldt last year but at other times has struggled. He certainly is worth persisting with in the long term I suppose the question is whether he is adding what we need right now. I have posted in the past expressing the view that he needs to be played because he adds to our structure, allowing Lake to play deep defense and freeing up Morris and Hargrave to play on smaller opponents, long term I still believe this to be true.

What I have noticed however in the here and now, is that our defensive unit looked far more cohesive both in defense and attack with Williams out of the side. Consider our form in the middle part of the season and in particular our ability to stifle attacks and rebound, in my opinion this has fallen away since Williams return.

Have others noticed this and do you feel Williams is a key factor here??

[LostDoggy]

Williams output is certainly inconsistent, he has played very good games at times with strong performances on Lucas this year and against Franklin and an out of form Riewoldt last year but at other times has struggled. He certainly is worth persisting with in the long term I suppose the question is whether he is adding what we need right now. I have posted in the past expressing the view that he needs to be played because he adds to our structure, allowing Lake to play deep defense and freeing up Morris and Hargrave to play on smaller opponents, long term I still believe this to be true.

What I have noticed however in the here and now, is that our defensive unit looked far more cohesive both in defense and attack with Williams out of the side. Consider our form in the middle part of the season and in particular our ability to stifle attacks and rebound, in my opinion this has fallen away since Williams return.

Have others noticed this and do you feel Williams is a key factor here??

I HAVE noticed this, and felt that even with Tiller playing out of his comfort zone much of the time we were a far more solid unit with the competitiveness he was offering, as well as the tightness across the half-back line.

Hargrave has mentioned that he's had more 'license to roam' since Tom's come back into the side, but I would argue that this has been to the side's detriment.. Ryan may like to not have to be as accountable, but we are better when he is.. we've been cut up by teams going through his opponent the past few weeks, who on-paper is a 'lesser' player, but usually good enough to provide a bit of an easy possession across their half-forward line.

It's dangerous that Tom's presence is seen to be a panacea by our own defenders as well -- they have to keep doing their DEFENSIVE jobs as tightly as possible. If the rest of the players tighten up I think it would expose Williams a bit less and make his job that much easier.

[BulldogBelle]

I get worried every time I see Tommy boy running, with fear that he will pull a hamstring, get shin splints, damage his foot, break a leg etc

Tommy in the ruck...competing against guys like Sandilands, Lade, Cox etc....think Tommy might end up in the emegency ward

[comrade]

Putting last week's debacle aside - I thought he has shown some good signs.

Particularly against Fremantle, some of his marking and reading of the play was Lake-esque. Unfortunately I made that exact comment to a fellow WOOFer last week, just before he was torn a new one by Kennedy :o

My point is - give him a break.

[BulldogBelle]

Putting last week's debacle aside - I thought he has shown some good signs.

Particularly against Fremantle, some of his marking and reading of the play was Lake-esque. Unfortunately I made that exact comment to a fellow WOOFer last week, just before he was torn a new one by Kennedy :o

My point is - give him a break.


Williams will do his best work for us this year closer to the oppositions goal, when he is surrounded by players

I didnt see the game against WCE, but listening to it on the radio suggested to me that Tommy's decision making with the ball, his knowledge of the game, where to run to, and the fact that he was being led around like a puppy suggests to me that he should be playing nice and close to goal, rather than chasing his man around out ofside the 50m arc, plus his fitness is probably substandard at the moment which has a lot to do with poor decision making

Tommy and Lake will form a formidable combination in the finals when Tommy is really firing

[ratsmac]

I've seen Brian Harris/Lake get towelled up plenty of times over the years, and look what kind of a player it has made him. Even shaggy has had plenty of shockers, so why are people being so damning on poor ol' 32 games Tommy Williams. Yes he had a shocker, but the old cliche' is true, you learn from your mistakes. At least he had a bad game now, hopefully in september he will have corrected that part of his game and everyone will be singing his praises. Give Tommy a go fellas.

[Hairy Albert]

I've seen Brian Harris/Lake get towelled up plenty of times over the years, and look what kind of a player it has made him. Even shaggy has had plenty of shockers, so why are people being so damning on poor ol' 32 games Tommy Williams. Yes he had a shocker, but the old cliche' is true, you learn from your mistakes. At least he had a bad game now, hopefully in september he will have corrected that part of his game and everyone will be singing his praises. Give Tommy a go fellas.
Totally agree with you ratsmac, give the bloke a go. Come to think of it give the club a go. Anyone would think we are in the bottom four instead of the top four! We are going to play in the finals no matter what, and the more finals we play, the more chances of winning a flag in the future,so get behind the team.

[LostDoggy]

Williams will do his best work for us this year closer to the oppositions goal, when he is surrounded by players

I didnt see the game against WCE, but listening to it on the radio suggested to me that Tommy's decision making with the ball, his knowledge of the game, where to run to, and the fact that he was being led around like a puppy suggests to me that he should be playing nice and close to goal, rather than chasing his man around out ofside the 50m arc, plus his fitness is probably substandard at the moment which has a lot to do with poor decision making

Tommy and Lake will form a formidable combination in the finals when Tommy is really firing

It is actually the opposite. Williams seems to get into more trouble closer to goal where he tends to be over-cautious because of the threat of allowing a score. He is more comfortable further out.

Having said that Kennedy outpointed him further out last week

[Mofra]

Particularly against Fremantle, some of his marking and reading of the play was Lake-esque. Unfortunately I made that exact comment to a fellow WOOFer last week, just before he was torn a new one by Kennedy :o
Perhaps a few WOOFers are underrating Kennedy a bit. The kid could be a 10 year no.1 forward and a huge Carlton mistake in letting him go.

[comrade]

Perhaps a few WOOFers are underrating Kennedy a bit. The kid could be a 10 year no.1 forward and a huge Carlton mistake in letting him go.

I’m a big fan of Kennedy – he’d be perfect for us. He never stops presenting and has good hands.

Tommy isn't the first to have been bettered by him, and he won’t be the last.

It was just an unfortunate piece of timing on my behalf, comparing Williams to Lake, right before he was taught a footballing lesson.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I’m a big fan of Kennedy – he’d be perfect for us. He never stops presenting and has good hands.

Tommy isn't the first to have been bettered by him, and he won’t be the last.

It was just an unfortunate piece of timing on my behalf, comparing Williams to Lake, right before he was taught a footballing lesson.

I was very keen to try to trade pick 5 to Carlton for Kennedy so they could on-trade it to WC for Judd.

Kennedy said he was from Geraldton rather than Perth and had no real preference for WA.


The kid will be a gun.

[Before I Die]

According to Eade after the game, Williams possibly has a broken foot after being trod on. Apparently scans tomorrow will tell the tale, but Williams' history would indicate that the worst possible outcome is the most likely.

[GVGjr]

According to Eade after the game, Williams possibly has a broken foot after being trod on. Apparently scans tomorrow will tell the tale, but Williams' history would indicate that the worst possible outcome is the most likely.

From memory didn't get injured late in the season last year as well? A real shame for him.

[LostDoggy]

One thing about Williams he is consistent.

[Ozza]

I thought Williams had a good game this week. Was ok with the ball and did really well in most contests.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I thought Williams had a good game this week. Was ok with the ball and did really well in most contests.
Agree, thought he did well tonight, I just hope that his foot injury is not as serious as the first signs appear to be.
Will be a big loss to our structure if he is out for the finals.

[DOG GOD]

We're getting injuries at the wrong time of year....is our finals specialist from last year in Tiller able to step up?

[gohardorgohome]

I wonder if we will cash in our Cam Wight insurance policy.

[LostDoggy]

He was a lot better last night, more worried about Hargrave's form lately.

[bulldogtragic]

If we have perserveered to get him into form and he has broken his foot, the footy god's are really against us :(

[Go_Dogs]

Hopefully the foot isn't broken. Given the troubles Tom has had with his feet this is very worrying indeed.....

[Studentlib]

No mention of his being injured on 9 footy show in Doc Larkins segment.

[gohardorgohome]

Page five of the herald sun sport has a pic of him standing in the circle singing the song with his boots on. You'd think he would have had the boots off by then if it were broken.

[bornadog]

I thought Williams had a good game this week. Was ok with the ball and did really well in most contests.

Should ahve had a shot for goal in the last quarter instead of trying to pass it to Minson. Overall pretty good game.

If we had confidence in his ability, he should have been on Brown and Lake on Bradshaw.

[Templeton31]

Should ahve had a shot for goal in the last quarter instead of trying to pass it to Minson. Overall pretty good game.

If we had confidence in his ability, he should have been on Brown and Lake on Bradshaw.

He seemed to be on both Bradshaw and Brown at times through the evening - admittedly only to give Morris/Lake a break but still there he was.

[boydogs]

Page five of the herald sun sport has a pic of him standing in the circle singing the song with his boots on. You'd think he would have had the boots off by then if it were broken.

Maybe he was leaving them on to stop swelling

[Dancin' Douggy]

Can anyone tell us if he has a broken foot?

[LostDoggy]

Loved the contested mark he took against Brown, shows what i feel he can do with more experience.

[LostDoggy]

Can anyone tell us if he has a broken foot?

They just said on the 7 News sports report that Tom Williams has a suspected broken foot. So at this stage, nothing has been confirmed.

[LostDoggy]

According to channel 9 this morning, he had a plate inserted into the top of his foot.

[Mofra]

Is it the sort of injury where, once the swelling stops, they can juice him up & he can play? Might effect his kicking but if he's in the team primarily as a stopper we may get away with it.

[Remi Moses]

:eek:Blimey imagine Tom going through airport security. He's typical of an inexperienced KPP one good week one bad week,i'd like to judge him after about 70 odd games. Trouble with that is he's on course to reach that mark by about 2015

[angelopetraglia]

Saw Tommy Friday night.

He had a massive moon boot on and was on crutches (see link for what I mean by moon boot http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_l2bY4LmWy2g/SZ-Cff5mZxI/AAAAAAAAAT8/EIeD821dS5I/s320/bella+broken+leg.jpg )

A lot of work from what I witnessed Friday night to playing AFL footy. Looks like a long way off it.

[LostDoggy]

Where is he at?

I don't think he should be in our side even if he is fit come finals.

At least he should play in VFL finals and demand a recall with outstanding performances.

But, if he can have a full pre-season he should be well placed to fill that KPB position ttat we think he can.

The frustrating thing is that after an injury he takes a while to settl;e and improve and then when he is showing some real good signs he gets injured again.

[bornadog]

Where is he at?

I don't think he should be in our side even if he is fit come finals.

At least he should play in VFL finals and demand a recall with outstanding performances.

But, if he can have a full pre-season he should be well placed to fill that KPB position ttat we think he can.

The frustrating thing is that after an injury he takes a while to settl;e and improve and then when he is showing some real good signs he gets injured again.

We are going to need a tall in the backline, particularly against the Saints. We also can't have Morris being monstered again like he was in the finals last year and against Mooney the other night.

[Bulldog Joe]

The Geelong game highlighted the need for Williams. When Geelong went tall in the forward line for the third quarter we were caught out.

To me there is no question if Tommy is fit he plays.

While the moon boot does look bad, with the type of injury he may just be ready to go as soon as the boot is off.

[Mantis]

The Geelong game highlighted the need for Williams. When Geelong went tall in the forward line for the third quarter we were caught out.

To me there is no question if Tommy is fit he plays.



Our forward line also suffered as we had to use Welsh in defence.

[Dry Rot]

Our forward line also suffered as we had to use Welsh in defence.

Aside from the hole up forward, how did you rate his work down back?

[Mantis]

Aside from the hole up forward, how did you rate his work down back?

I thought he was ok in the defensive role. He could be exposed by a quicker player, but he reads the ball well and competes well in the air.

[Yearofthedog]

People generally consider Welsh to be useful loose in the backline, I feel he's serviceable but you've got to really consider the damage the other player's doing loose on the field. I just don't feel Welsh really hurts the opposition considering this

[Dry Rot]

I thought he was ok in the defensive role. He could be exposed by a quicker player, but he reads the ball well and competes well in the air.

That's I thought - he seemed to go OK down there. Took a ripper mark up forward IIRC.

[Happy Days]

I thought he was ok in the defensive role. He could be exposed by a quicker player, but he reads the ball well and competes well in the air.

He was probably BOG against North playing the Maxwell/Harley role, going third man up to every big contest.

[Rocco Jones]

People generally consider Welsh to be useful loose in the backline, I feel he's serviceable but you've got to really consider the damage the other player's doing loose on the field. I just don't feel Welsh really hurts the opposition considering this

I don't think we should be playing Welsh as a permanent forward against Collingwood. Presti is a pure negating full-back who likes to sit on forwards who aren't very mobile. He owned Welsh last time. I would like us to make life a bit tougher for Presti, trying to expose him with different match ups.

[always right]

Whoever plays on Presti must take him up the ground.

[LostDoggy]

I don't think we should be playing Welsh as a permanent forward against Collingwood. Presti is a pure negating full-back who likes to sit on forwards who aren't very mobile. He owned Welsh last time. I would like us to make life a bit tougher for Presti, trying to expose him with different match ups.

Good call - give Presti no match up and the way to do that is to go with quick/mobile types up forward, apart from the occasional Minson foray forward where all he needs to do is make sure that the ball comes to ground (we all know he aint going to mark it!).
This will then leave Welsh to play further upfield if not the spare man in defence.

[LostDoggy]

Could he return this week?

On the official website it says 1 week, but was that posted last week & meaning this week he is available?

We need him in the team down back, it releases so much pressure off Morris. Morris is a great defender, but he can't constantly keep going up against bigger opponents.

Would love to have Williams come into the team this week, get one game under his belt & then get the team set up for St Kilda. If we go into the St Kilda game with only Lake as our primary tall, we will get slaughtered. But having Williams back there, i will feel a little more confident, of maybe snatching a win.

[DOG GOD]

I dont think we can afford to have another player coming back from injury, when we have gia, cross, missy, griff not fit enough for a final now.

[LostDoggy]

I dont think we can afford to have another player coming back from injury, when we have gia, cross, missy, griff not fit enough for a final now.

I honestly think you need to roll the dice, and take a risk.

We are going to get smashed by Roo & Kosi anyway, why not take the risk and give Williams a game this week (if available) and play him against St Kilda also.

I would only think about Williams if he is available for this week, if not, then i wouldn't bring him straight back for St Kilda.

[boydogs]

I honestly think you need to roll the dice, and take a risk.

We are going to get smashed by Roo & Kosi anyway, why not take the risk and give Williams a game this week (if available) and play him against St Kilda also.

I would only think about Williams if he is available for this week, if not, then i wouldn't bring him straight back for St Kilda.

Brisbane and St Kilda are definitely sides a firing Tommygun would help against, but we might just need to back Dale in to stand up for us as Tommy has not played enough good footy consistently to be able to adjust to finals intensity

[The Coon Dog]

I honestly think you need to roll the dice, and take a risk.

We are going to get smashed by Roo & Kosi anyway, why not take the risk and give Williams a game this week (if available) and play him against St Kilda also.

I would only think about Williams if he is available for this week, if not, then i wouldn't bring him straight back for St Kilda.

Why not give him a run at Willy first?

[gohardorgohome]

Why not give him a run at Willy first?

I agree!!

[LostDoggy]

Why not give him a run at Willy first?

Good call.

Totally forgot about Willy still playing, give him a good run about there & then look at the team situation.

[LostDoggy]

Why not give him a run at Willy first?
Cos its do or die this week. I have no idea if Eade thinks he is required this week but if he is ready to play and needed in the firsts then play him in the firsts.
He also played well against them last time carrying the injury, and if we get through this week, I'd prefer him on Kosi than Morris and better for playing a week at the top level.
Its a risk but Eade's taken these risks before.

[Mantis]

Cos its do or die this week. I have no idea if Eade thinks he is required this week but if he is ready to play and needed in the firsts then play him in the firsts.
He also played well against them last time carrying the injury, and if we get through this week, I'd prefer him on Kosi than Morris and better for playing a week at the top level.
Its a risk but Eade's taken these risks before.

He did with Gia and it hasn't paid off as yet.

[neodog]

But it might paid off this week.

[mighty_west]

Williams also has a history of taking a few games to find his form at the top level, ALOT of people were calling for his head when we lost to the Pies.

I understand we might need his height, but it's a very risky call considering the lack of footy put into him of late, coming into big finals games.

[Sedat]

Its a risk but Eade's taken these risks before.
Big risk. Tom has shown he is rubbish first game back from a spell. Then again we're talking last chance saloon. Wouldn't surprise me to see him rushed back this week, just like he was against Freo last year and against Collingwood earlier this year.

[The Pie Man]

Williams also has a history of taking a few games to find his form at the top level, ALOT of people were calling for his head when we lost to the Pies.

I understand we might need his height, but it's a very risky call considering the lack of footy put into him of late, coming into big finals games.

I do agree - though to counter this perception (or the reality it probably is) I also remember him coming into the Hawthorn game in Tassie last year with little prep and playing very well on Buddy.

I thought Gia's first game back was ok too, he's just struggled since.

[bulldogtragic]

Bump. May be very important with the Saints gorilla forwards this week.

[The Coon Dog]

Bump. May be very important with the Saints gorilla forwards this week.

If he gets through OK today I reckon he'll come in next week. Just a gut feel, but he does seem to allow us to structure up much better.

[mighty_west]

If he gets through OK today I reckon he'll come in next week. Just a gut feel, but he does seem to allow us to structure up much better.

I just get the feeling that Rocket playing Welsh, and giving him some time on Brown last night, to see how he would go if Williams doesn't come up, there's no doubt we are alot better down back when the two big forwards are held by Morris & Williams, giving Lake free reign to zone off the next best forward.

What were peoples thoughts on Welsh playing that type of role down back?

[bulldogtragic]

If he gets through OK today I reckon he'll come in next week. Just a gut feel, but he does seem to allow us to structure up much better.
Same here. His first game back from injury don't seem to be massive, but if he can take Kosi, Lake goes to St Nick, Dale, Hargy and Callan can play on bloke's their size for a change against the Saints and should beat their opponents. From there it can be flexible whether Gilbee and Harbrow are off the flank, or whether one keeps Goddard honest up forward which would be good.

So i tend to agree he matchups are better. It would then be Welsh that goes for mine, a 500 goal full forward not kicking goals, not playing forward and butchering his disposal last night is a passenger for mine. But then we may be a forward target down??

[GVGjr]

He went OK today and must be in the mix. I could see him replacing Welsh.

[LostDoggy]

Can't see Rocket dropping an experienced player in Welsh, very rarely does it.

Can't even remember the last time it occurred?

I still think Williams will come in, just because he performed fairly well today. And he makes our structure a whole better, for finals especially.

[Rocco Jones]

He went OK today and must be in the mix. I could see him replacing Welsh.


Can't see Rocket dropping an experienced player in Welsh, very rarely does it.

Can't even remember the last time it occurred?

I still think Williams will come in, just because he performed fairly well today. And he makes our structure a whole better, for finals especially.

Welsh is the one I would drop if Williams is to come in but as JH40 has mentioned, Eade doesn't drop senior players.

I don't rate Williams highly in isolation, even when he had a few games under his belt he seemed to be competitive at best. It is also a big risk to play him underdone. The thing is that he offers a fair bit to our structure, Morris has struggled since has been out.

[comrade]

Welsh is the one I would drop if Williams is to come in but as JH40 has mentioned, Eade doesn't drop senior players.

I don't rate Williams highly in isolation, even when he had a few games under his belt he seemed to be competitive at best. It is also a big risk to play him underdone. The thing is that he offers a fair bit to our structure, Morris has struggled since has been out.

Morris struggled to contain Bradshaw last night, so I fear what Riewoldt might do. I'm not sold on Tommy coming back in, but as you say, he helps our defensive structure.

Knowing the match committee's propensity to play Tom whenever he's available, the fact that he got on the park and got through it unscathed suggests he'll come in next week, otherwise why not just put him in cotton wool for next year.

Despite his effort last night, I still think Hahn's name should be up for consideration, as I think he's the one that the St Kilda defensive group will really try to exploit going the other way.

[Rocco Jones]

Morris struggled to contain Bradshaw last night, so I fear what Riewoldt might do. I'm not sold on Tommy coming back in, but as you say, he helps our defensive structure.

Knowing the match committee's propensity to play Tom whenever he's available, the fact that he got on the park and got through it unscathed suggests he'll come in next week, otherwise why not just put him in cotton wool for next year.

Despite his effort last night, I still think Hahn's name should be up for consideration, as I think he's the one that the St Kilda defensive group will really try to exploit going the other way.

I agree with you on Hahn. He kicked 4 goals but most of them were deadset gimmes. As you mention, the Saints defensive group really love guys like Hahn. I just can't see Eade dropping a senior player, especially coming off an OK/comes across as a good game. I really hope Callan isn't the one that makes way for Williams.

[bornadog]

Morris struggled to contain Bradshaw last night

I don't agree Comrade. I thought Bradshaw started well but was not seen again, till junk time in the last quarter when he kicked those last two. I thought Morris stuck to his task and did a great job.

I would have Morris in my team anytime compared to Williams, who has proved nothing this year. Has been beaten several times when he was on the park.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I agree with you on Hahn. He kicked 4 goals but most of them were deadset gimmes. As you mention, the Saints defensive group really love guys like Hahn. I just can't see Eade dropping a senior player, especially coming off an OK/comes across as a good game. I really hope Callan isn't the one that makes way for Williams.

Ditto.

Williams for Welsh is the logical choice but it's difficult to see Welsh being dropped at this stage. It might be on the cards though, as Welsh didn't play up forward for much of the game last night. Perhaps Rocket was testing Welsh out to see if he could offer us anything down back? We all know his finals record as a forward is very poor.

I was totally against Williams coming into the line-up v Collingwood earlier in the year, as most of you probably know. However, for mine Williams has to play this week. Morris has been struggling lately and will be killed if he has to play on Riewoldt all day. Williams has to be given some responsibility and besides, I personally think Tommy can offer more down back AND up forward than Welsh can/has.

We may need to try something a little different against St. Kilda and I would like to see Williams playing at FF for a chunk of the game. They expose Minson, Hahn and Welsh every single time and if we go with the same set-up there's nothing to suggest that won't be repeated. Williams at FF might throw them out a little as it would be very unexpected. I'd expect Williams would be far too mobile for Dawson, whilst (obviously) rotating on Riewoldt.

Welsh doesn't and won't offer us nearly enough against the Saints.

[comrade]

I don't agree Comrade. I thought Bradshaw started well but was not seen again, till junk time in the last quarter when he kicked those last two. I thought Morris stuck to his task and did a great job.

I would have Morris in my team anytime compared to Williams, who has proved nothing this year. Has been beaten several times when he was on the park.

In the first half, Morris was completely outpointed in a number of marking contests, both on the lead and one on one.

In the second half, he worked into the game and eventually got on top but Bradshaw could have had 5 goals if he kicked straight which suggests that Dale had his colours lowered.

I'd never suggest having Williams replace Morris. I just think that having him give away so much height week after week takes it's toll, and I'd rather him play on the mid/small forwards as we know he'll dominate, rather than just compete.

[bornadog]

I'd never suggest having Williams replace Morris. I just think that having him give away so much height week after week takes it's toll, and I'd rather him play on the mid/small forwards as we know he'll dominate, rather than just compete.

I do realize you didn't say that, my BIG concern is Williams is not up to it. We may just have to go in with Lake, Morris and Hargrave as our talls. So which risk do we take, the devil we know or the unknown?

[Rocco Jones]

I'd never suggest having Williams replace Morris. I just think that having him give away so much height week after week takes it's toll, and I'd rather him play on the mid/small forwards as we know he'll dominate, rather than just compete.

That's it right there. I really don't rate Williams highly in isolation (especially the underdone/usual version) but he really helps out Morris. Williams doesn't need to be very good to add value to our side, he just needs to compete (granted, it's a big just when it's against Kosi/Roo).