Was it the loss to the Eagles or is it just Eagleton?

[GVGjr]

A couple of weeks back there was a poll that posed the question if Eade should be signed to a 2 or 3 year deal. The overwhelming majority wanted Eade signed for 3 years and even a few that wanted more than that.

Earlier this week, and straight after a humiliating loss, Eade was signed to a 2 year deal and seemed very happy with it. Eade was even spruiking about a premiership but since that day he has copped more than his share of whacks from the WOOF posters even from those who wanted the 3 year deal for him.

Are the loyal posters here still hurting from the loss to the Eagles?
Is it the fact that Eade doesn't appear to want to give Eagleton a spell?
Is the predictable selection process on Thursday night wearing thin?
Is it a combination of all 3 options listed above or is it something else?

For what it's worth, I think Eade has been unfairly targeted this week in what should have been a positive defining moment for the club but I'd be interested to know if it was the loss to the Eagles or something else that is getting people worked up more than usual?

Rocket Science made mention that things had been decidedly prickly this week but I thought it would have worn off as we got closer to the Brisbane game. Clearly I was wrong.

[Rocco Jones]

Overall I am happy with Eade's time at the Dogs. I wanted Eade to be given a 2 year contract prior to the Eagles game. After the Eagles game I would have probably preferred us to delay the deal until the end of the year but think he deserves the new contract.

It's definitely not just Eagleton for me. I have a massive issue with how much faith he has in older guys like Eagle, Welsh and Hahn. It seems like he will never drop an older player/player who has a decent reputation. Conversely, he seems to show very little faith in the youngsters. Stack has a quality game against Freo and then is equally poor the next week, which gets him dropped. Welsh was in poor form before his injury and is notoriously poor when underdone, yet he comes straight back in.

[lemmon]

Honestly I think I along with a few others have over-reacted a bit after last weeks loss and the predictability at the selection table. Sometimes its easier to throw the toys out of the cot and yell play the kids from the top of the grandstand. Top four is still on the cards so at the moment its not the time to blood the young fellas and its the time for the mature heads to come back in.
I think the other factor is a fair bit of frustration, after the Geelong loss and Hawthorn win their was a bit of a rumble and a quiet confidence that the drought may be over. In the last few weeks these dreams have been sent back a far way.

[bulldogtragic]

Overall I am happy with Eade's time at the Dogs. I wanted Eade to be given a 2 year contract prior to the Eagles game. After the Eagles game I would have probably preferred us to delay the deal until the end of the year but think he deserves the new contract.

It's definitely not just Eagleton for me. I have a massive issue with how much faith he has in older guys like Eagle, Welsh and Hahn. It seems like he will never drop an older player/player who has a decent reputation. Conversely, he seems to show very little faith in the youngsters. Stack has a quality game against Freo and then is equally poor the next week, which gets him dropped. Welsh was in poor form before his injury and is notoriously poor when underdone, yet he comes straight back in.
What Rocco said.

[comrade]

No, it's actually just Eagleton....:D

Jokes aside, I think lemmon makes a good point. Prior to the Collingwood game we were tracking very nicely and many of us were probably thinking "this could be the year!".

Like Icarus flying too close to the sun, we've hurtled back to Earth in the proceeding weeks and it's never nice to get a reality check.

[Rocco Jones]

Honestly I think I along with a few others have over-reacted a bit after last weeks loss and the predictability at the selection table. Sometimes its easier to throw the toys out of the cot and yell play the kids from the top of the grandstand. Top four is still on the cards so at the moment its not the time to blood the young fellas and its the time for the mature heads to come back in.


Isn't Eade's preference for older players self-fulfilling then? The kids aren't blooded, so by default cannot be ready for the big ones. Keep on playing Eagle, Hahn and Welsh when you should be playing a kid instead of at least one of them and then you end up having to play them because the kids haven't got enough experience for the crunch games.

[bornadog]

There has been a lot of negative posting this week and probably because posters feel, after losing a game we were a monty for, the dream of the GF and premiership looked like it took a big hit. Premiership teams do not lose matches like that.

I think its unfair to pick on the coach and the selection panel. I truely believe, the selection panel pick the best team each week. We know that Eagleton was on notice, but he kept his position due to the outs over the past two weeks. We can't have 6 players on the injury list and drop a 250 gamer to bring in another debutant, or inexperienced player. There is such thing as team balance. Last weeks team versus the Eagles, was our most inexperienced team for the year, with 5 to 6 players with less than 30 games, plus Williams with 32 games, and including two players playing less than 3 games.

Going forward, if we get Cross, Gia and Higgins back for round 22, then unless Eagleton is firing, I don't think he will hold his position.

[Rocco Jones]

Going forward, if we get Cross, Gia and Higgins back for round 22, then unless Eagleton is firing, I don't think he will hold his position.

Sorry to be cynical but I think Eade will keep on finding an excuse to play Eagle. I think he would be ahead of at least 3 players in our 22. When has Eade ever dropped Eagle?

[LostDoggy]

For me personally it is a combination of things.

I was never one that thought this year we could win the flag, but I darn well hoped that we could make the grand final and experience and understand what is entailed and required for us to go further.

I think Eade is great for the club, and I wanted him (and still do) to get a three year deal.

In terms of us being a smaller club, we got a horrible run this year in fixturing. Two games away against WA teams in the first four rounds, meant that we dropped one and didn't get a chance to gain momentum and confidence ala St Kilda.

Late in the season we are playing too many games back to back at the Dome which is hard on our older players and wears down our fitness. The only game away is at the Gabba - the place of many a knee injury to our team (see Hahn and Griffin):eek:

I think that we should not select the same players week in week out, but base it on form - and even though I got shouted down for saying this previously, I still think Rocket needs to play the young kids more and rest the older players more. (I thought that was going to be part of the strategy this year:confused:).

For me I think the season is gone, we are not going to win a flag faced with the above barriers from 6th spot on the ladder. I would loved to be proven wrong, however, being the eternal optimist (a necessary feature if you are strong enough to be a lifelong dogs person) I hope that something good will come out of our slide down the ladder, like a fantastic talent that will get us over the line in a GF one day (ooh I just got chills up my spine:) and for that, missing out on being the team that the Saints smash on GF day makes it worthwhile. Go Dogs!

[boydogs]

Nice thread GVG
I think the answer is all of the above. With our finishes in the last few seasons in mind I think it is going to take a win in Brisbane to restore optimism that we can still challenge for the flag that has been in our sights since matching it with Geelong in round 9

I voted 3+ years for Eade as he seems to be a great coach and communicator. I think he has a stubborn side to him which gives him great focus to the task at hand, but also makes him slow to react to change. Our slow starts and reluctance to drop out of form players are a concern, and I think WOOFers just don't want us to miss out again this year if it can at all be avoided

[LostDoggy]

Eagle needs to be dropped. If he has another shocker this week..............I dunno how he cannot be dropped...

[Bulldog Joe]

I have avoided much of the forum this week, as I have found the negatives hard to take.
Like
premiership sides do not lose games like we did to the eagles
Answer: Yes they do - Hawthorn to Richmond in 08, Geelong to Port at Geelong in 09

This player should be dropped to play x form Williamstown
Like
Drop Tom Williams for Tiller - who incidentally has hardly played in about 6 weeks etc.

Most of the posts show unrestrained anger and depression and very little knowledge of the game.

FWIW
Eagleton has been fumbling badly BUT he does a better job of getting to position as a hard runner than just about anyone in the side. We certainly need him to be cleaner with his handling, but until Callan Ward and others can show that they can present enough we probably need to retain Eagle particularly while we are missing Gia, Higgins and Cross.
Mitch Hahn has had a pretty ordinary year and I believe his time in the game is pretty limited. He looks older than anyone on the list with the way his movement has diminished, BUT the younger players do struggle as evidenced by Stack's complete lack of presence against West Coast, when he should have been able to ride the tide of confidence from the Freo game. At least Hahn will be in the contest.

I am pretty happy that Rocket is re-signed and I believe the 2 years with an option on a third based on performance criteria is about right.
Success comes from consistency and perserverance not from continual change. Change needs to be gradual and bedded down before embarking on the next step.

The only player who looks to have done enough to warrant a senior game and not had one seems to be O'Keefe. I am relying on reports of others. I have managed to see one Willimstown game live and one on TV. O'Keefe was ordinary in the live game and behind Reid, Addison and others in the TV game.

I trust in the job that is being done and the team has improved significantly since Rocket has been there and I see the trend as still positive.

GO DOGS!!!!

[Rocco Jones]

Eagle needs to be dropped. If he has another shocker this week..............I dunno how he cannot be dropped...

Eade seems to rate his ability to run out a game compared to the kids very highly. From what we have seen from team selections throughout the season, it seems like Eade has Eagle ahead of Addison, Wood, Hill and even Ward. I don't think poor form from Eagle combined with having our best 22 will even see him out of the side. Eade rates him a lot higher than 95% of our fans, I guess we have to get over it (pot, kettle, black).

[Scorlibo]

The loss to the Eagles reinforced many people's opinions that Eade's refusal to drop underperforming senior players meant that the players' intensity would never reach that of St Kilda and Geelong because there was no fear of being dropped. There was of course an overreaction to the loss and the apocalypse seemed to be nearing for most posters who wear their heart on their sleeve ;).

To answer your question, it was the loss that changed common perception of Eade because it was a loss that never should have been possible considering all the variables. The only explanation for such a loss is a drop in the level of intensity and hunger amongst the players. The first person blamed for a loss in intensity must always be the coach. For all the match up hoo-ha and technical aspects of coaching, the most important thing for a coach to do is to ensure that each player goes into each game with the correct, eager, unassuming mental state. It's the one area that Eade appears to need to improve in imo, because our intensity has fluctuated so frustratingly this year.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I have avoided much of the forum this week, as I have found the negatives hard to take.
Like
premiership sides do not lose games like we did to the eagles
Answer: Yes they do - Hawthorn to Richmond in 08, Geelong to Port at Geelong in 09

This player should be dropped to play x form Williamstown
Like
Drop Tom Williams for Tiller - who incidentally has hardly played in about 6 weeks etc.

Most of the posts show unrestrained anger and depression and very little knowledge of the game.

FWIW
Eagleton has been fumbling badly BUT he does a better job of getting to position as a hard runner than just about anyone in the side. We certainly need him to be cleaner with his handling, but until Callan Ward and others can show that they can present enough we probably need to retain Eagle particularly while we are missing Gia, Higgins and Cross.
Mitch Hahn has had a pretty ordinary year and I believe his time in the game is pretty limited. He looks older than anyone on the list with the way his movement has diminished, BUT the younger players do struggle as evidenced by Stack's complete lack of presence against West Coast, when he should have been able to ride the tide of confidence from the Freo game. At least Hahn will be in the contest.

I am pretty happy that Rocket is re-signed and I believe the 2 years with an option on a third based on performance criteria is about right.
Success comes from consistency and perserverance not from continual change. Change needs to be gradual and bedded down before embarking on the next step.

The only player who looks to have done enough to warrant a senior game and not had one seems to be O'Keefe. I am relying on reports of others. I have managed to see one Willimstown game live and one on TV. O'Keefe was ordinary in the live game and behind Reid, Addison and others in the TV game.

I trust in the job that is being done and the team has improved significantly since Rocket has been there and I see the trend as still positive.

GO DOGS!!!!

nice post

[bold-dogg]

Last week Everitt lost us the game in the last few minutes. Hahn won us two games this season. The kids (exception: Callan Ward, Harbrow, and to some extent Josh Hill) aren't up to it yet. Stack, Everitt, Reid and Wood will be regulars in a year or two, I hope. Welsh and Hahn are in our best 25, maybe that says something about our list. I reckon, due to our forward-line Hahn has to punch above his weight, like Hargrave when he has to play CHB.
I loved watching Hahn 2 or 3 years ago as a burst player, mostly applying defensive pressure in the forward-line but also crashing into a pack of players 3 times a game for 3 snapped goals. Wouldn't we want Welsh played into form before the finals?
My worry is how we handle pressure. All those posters (hit the post. Not WOOF posters). Don't like Eagleton, or even Murphy, kicking for goal when the stakes are high. And when they miss it's contagious. Murph's a champion, anyway, but I'd have Ward, Hill and Harbrow in the team before Eagleton come finals.
My other worry is about our attitude. Slow starts, or when we start well (rarely) we slacken off in the 2nd quarter. And all those posters.
It's a mental attitude. To win the Grand Final we've got to know we're going to win it.
That said I'm glad we've got an experienced, quality coach. My guess is Eade thought we are a good chance next season, 2010, but after our top run this season thought why not? We're a real chance this season too.
I think we're a better chance next season. I'd still love a KPF, though. David Hale, anyone?
Before I jump on my horsem may I add: we really miss Gia.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Last week Everitt lost us the game in the last few minutes. Hahn won us two games this season. The kids (exception: Callan Ward, Harbrow, and to some extent Josh Hill) aren't up to it yet. Stack, Everitt, Reid and Wood will be regulars in a year or two, I hope. Welsh and Hahn are in our best 25, maybe that says something about our list. I reckon, due to our forward-line Hahn has to punch above his weight, like Hargrave when he has to play CHB.
I loved watching Hahn 2 or 3 years ago as a burst player, mostly applying defensive pressure in the forward-line but also crashing into a pack of players 3 times a game for 3 snapped goals. Wouldn't we want Welsh played into form before the finals?
My worry is how we handle pressure. All those posters (hit the post. Not WOOF posters). Don't like Eagleton, or even Murphy, kicking for goal when the stakes are high. And when they miss it's contagious. Murph's a champion, anyway, but I'd have Ward, Hill and Harbrow in the team before Eagleton come finals.
My other worry is about our attitude. Slow starts, or when we start well (rarely) we slacken off in the 2nd quarter. And all those posters.
It's a mental attitude. To win the Grand Final we've got to know we're going to win it.
That said I'm glad we've got an experienced, quality coach. My guess is Eade thought we are a good chance next season, 2010, but after our top run this season thought why not? We're a real chance this season too.
I think we're a better chance next season. I'd still love a KPF, though. David Hale, anyone?
Before I jump on my horsem may I add: we really miss Gia.

another nice post.

[Go_Dogs]

I certainly think it's a combination effect. With our tough draw it was a must win game, and now that we have lost it and have to play Brisbane, Geelong and Collingwood it's quiet plausible and highly likely that we end up 5th or 6th. Compare this to last Friday, and most would have been confident of remaining in the Top 4 at least, and quite probably finishing 3rd and playing the favored opponent, Geelong, in the first week of finals.


It's not just losing to a crap side that frustrates, but the implications of said loss on our chances for the remainder of the year. It really was a game we just had to win.


Bulldog Joe, your Hawks example is actually a very interesting one though.... Looking at their season last year, they had only beaten Collingwood out of the contenders during the season proper, including losses to us, Geelong and St Kilda. The difference being that they managed to have two huge wins to finish off the season and gain confidence (about +130 in the final two games), and still finish 2nd on the ladder.

Port in 07 ended up playing the GF, so beating Geelong in Geelong at that stage of the year, whilst perhaps still a surprise, doesn't really fit imo. Port were a a good side in 07, regardless of the GF result, they played some great footy.

[LostDoggy]

I'd still love a KPF, though. David Hale, anyone?


That is interesting.

[Mofra]

Excellent post Bulldog Joe

FWIW Doesn't the two year deal include performance indicators that would lead to a third year? If so I can't see why anyone would really be disappointed with this, accountability even in a situation that you're satified with can only be a positive.

[The Pie Man]

I know a lot of people will look back at the prelim in 97 as their worst moment in football, and completely agree it was a heartbreaker, but I can remember a few other really awful moments that rank right up there - and a really obscure (at least I think it's obscure) moment where I questioned my passion for the game/club.

Sun 10 April 2005 - 4 point loss to Richmond.

I couldn't handle it after the game, I was the most gutted I can remember being after a H&A game. I felt rotten after losing to Melbourne in round 21 the same year, as that 5-6 week period was the best I've seen us play under Eade (Monty, Grant, Robbins, Smith, West - we've gone through quite some changes since then)

Last Saturday vs Weagles has clearly hit a nerve with everyone in a similar manner...and I have to admit, I still don't feel great about it.

I remain confident we can win tomorrow and hopefully proceed to tie up a top 4 spot - though one thing that rankles me (and something like this always seems to happen and is largely circumstantial) is that a team like St Kilda that we were comfortably superior to last year has gone past us so convincingly - this is clearly all about emotion from a fan, I'm not dirty at the club for it - and who knows, funny things happen in September, and September is all anyone ever remembers.

On Eagleton, if he can find confidence in his foot skills, then I'm sure most of us can forgive him the past month and a bit - but he needs to find them tomorrow, we need him and Williams to play well bad.

Eade's been great - timing of contract announcement was a little off, but that wasn't Eade's fault. I'll contine to question things on here from time to time, but on the whole he's been super for us - look at the change in personnel since he's been here, and we're still top 4 and arguably better now (as I mentioned earlier, late 05 IMO was maybe our best period under him, but that's a very subjective point)

[LostDoggy]

I have avoided much of the forum this week, as I have found the negatives hard to take.
Like
premiership sides do not lose games like we did to the eagles
Answer: Yes they do - Hawthorn to Richmond in 08, Geelong to Port at Geelong in 09


Oh come on, it's contextual.

Hawthorn lost to Richmond when they had 2nd spot sewn up, and Richmond were in the middle of an 8-game winning streak, chasing a finals spot (finishing 9th). Hawthorn was clearly a dominant top 2 team all year and proved it in finals.

Geelong lost to Port in the last H&A game of the year after they had top spot sewn up with nothing to play for and Port was playing for their spot in the finals/top 4. Cats easily top team of the year and went on to win the big one. Port also went on to make the grand final, so were no mugs.

Dogs lost last week playing at home, for a spot in the top 4, with three tough games to come (we can still potentially slide to 6th or 7th), against a team in the bottom four that hadn't won away from home in two and a half years, and had nothing to play for.

Hawthorn and Geelong lost games that had nothing on the line for them and everything on the line for their opponents. The Dogs lost a game that had everything on the line for us and nothing on the line for our opponents.

Apples and oranges.

ps. And you really should check out the off-line calibre/credentials of WOOF posters before slagging us off collectively as 'having very little knowledge of the game'.

[Topdog]

nice rebuttal Lantern. I can't believe the loss to the Eagles with our season "on the line" can be compared to a useless games for both the Hawks and the Eagles.

[Cyberdoggie]

I don't think it's just because we lost a game last week.

For me it's the season in general.

* Pre-season: lost all game and were woeful except for a win in the wet against the demons last game
* Start of the season we were wonderful against freo (who we now know as a bottom 2 side) full of run
* Quickly started to lose our run and played conservative chip around the back line football against Carlton, StKilda and the Eagles.
* Finally got our mojo back against the crows in Adelaide, and played our best footy for the year against the Cats and the power.
* After the break we were less impressive against North and then smashed an out of sorts Hawthorn side.
* An unfortunate loss to the pies, less than impressive win against the dons and the disaster against the saints really hit hard.
* Another ordinary effort against freo after half time and the loss to the Eagles after almost not kicking a goal in the first half.

There has been a real lack of consistency from the side, and that has made it so frustrating.
I haven't given up and i still have faith but like Rocco Jones i feel as though we could of utilized our squad much better than we have. Earlier in the year there was a lot of talk about the tough early draw, 7 road trips etc, and that we were going to manage the players through it. I understood this to mean that we would rest older players and/or keep them fresh. Apart from a couple of injuries and 1 or 2 young players getting a game, we have basically remained unchanged. We are even with StKilda for the least amount of players used for the season, and they just rested half their side against the hawks.

I can think of several excuses why we have performed this way:

* Fitness loading of the players (new fitness coach Bill Davoren)
* Team balance leans too far to the un-accountable type players (eagleton)
* The coach's message is starting to get lost on the players (been yelled at one too many times?)
* Game style - handball friendly, suspect to intense pressure, lack of key forwards or anyone that can take a mark over their shoulders in the forward line.


So in summary our highest scalp has been Adelaide in S.A, we have lost 5 games to teams in the top 8 and we have lost to a team that has won 5 games for the year twice.

We can change that by winning the next 3!

[mighty_west]

A couple of weeks back there was a poll that posed the question if Eade should be signed to a 2 or 3 year deal. The overwhelming majority wanted Eade signed for 3 years and even a few that wanted more than that.

Earlier this week, and straight after a humiliating loss, Eade was signed to a 2 year deal and seemed very happy with it. Eade was even spruiking about a premiership but since that day he has copped more than his share of whacks from the WOOF posters even from those who wanted the 3 year deal for him.

Are the loyal posters here still hurting from the loss to the Eagles?
Is it the fact that Eade doesn't appear to want to give Eagleton a spell?
Is the predictable selection process on Thursday night wearing thin?
Is it a combination of all 3 options listed above or is it something else?

For what it's worth, I think Eade has been unfairly targeted this week in what should have been a positive defining moment for the club but I'd be interested to know if it was the loss to the Eagles or something else that is getting people worked up more than usual?

Rocket Science made mention that things had been decidedly prickly this week but I thought it would have worn off as we got closer to the Brisbane game. Clearly I was wrong.

I think it's just a combination of alot of things.

Eades contract, i would have been happy for him to get a 3 year deal done, and still would have been happy for that even after the West Coast loss, i like to lok at things in the big picture rather than judging things one week at a time and getting all worked up after a loss, but 2 years is fine, if thats the way the club want to go, we have seen in the past that longer term contracts for coaches & players can bite teams on the bum.

With our form, the past few seasons we have really fallen away with form late in the season, and things seem to be going down the same path once again, whether or not we are a realistic chance in making the GF & winning the Premiership this year, we had a top 4 position in our sites and were in the best 3 or 4 teams throughout, i'm not too sure about that now, the Pies have seemed to gone ahead of us with Brisbane breathing down our neck.

Unfortunatly when we lose or taper off with our good form, there are always scape goats, and this year Eagleton really has dropped off with form over the past 5-6 weeks, i am one for thinking that our best shot is playing our best players, as we can give a few kids a shot, and they might do well here & there, but in the pressure cut throat games you play in finals, those kids can get chopped up.

Another issue is losing a few key players due to injury, which in effect has given a few kids a shot, Stacky & Wood, but just how many kids can we play at once? You see time & time again with teams playing alot of kids, we saw that with the Hawks this year and they really fell away, West Coast after their Premiership, lost some key players, had to play kids, and again, fell right back.

But as we are all passionate about the club, and we can all get fired up & perhaps say things we don't need to say, let the dust settle a bit after a loss etc etc, i reckon alot of us can just see a repeat of the past few seasons, giving us great hope throughout the season, yet come to the business end and see another genuine chance of the ultimate success going down the drain.

One day!

[1eyedog]

Good discussion GVGjr but for me the issues you raised in your post are just a sprinkling of snow on what is Mt Everest. I guess what makes me so disappointed with the points you have raised is the fact that we have been waiting 55 years for a premiership. Now I'm only 37 but in that time, I like all fellow WOOF posters I'm sure, have been through seasons of expectation and disappointment. I could live with a current rebuild like Sydney or the Eagles if we had a recent Premiership cup in the trophy room. Hell, I could even live with being a Richmond supporter if we had won a Premiership in 1980 I reckon.

I realise that this reply may be selfish and unnecessarily harsh and it must be stated here that I will always be a loyal and true Bulldog fan, but how long do we have to wait for our next Premiership? Why are we NEVER the favourite going into a finals series? Why can't it be us for just one season? While Premierships do not guarantee club longevity in this caper (look at Nth. Melbourne and recent speculation about them folding/moving interstate) I think we really need a premiership soon to get the critics of our back and to secure some much needed pride in this club. WE NEED SUCCESS and when it is not delivered (especially over such a long period of time) many questions are posed and disappointment continues. It's time to lift our standards and start expecting but as disappointment continues frustrations spill over, as was witnessed this week on WOOF.

[Sedat]

Good discussion GVGjr but for me the issues you raised in your post are just a sprinkling of snow on what is Mt Everest. I guess what makes me so disappointed with the points you have raised is the fact that we have been waiting 55 years for a premiership. Now I'm only 37 but in that time, I like all fellow WOOF posters I'm sure, have been through seasons of expectation and disappointment. I could live with a current rebuild like Sydney or the Eagles if we had a recent Premiership cup in the trophy room. Hell, I could even live with being a Richmond supporter if we had won a Premiership in 1980 I reckon.

I realise that this reply may be selfish and unnecessarily harsh and it must be stated here that I will always be a loyal and true Bulldog fan, but how long do we have to wait for our next Premiership? Why are we NEVER the favourite going into a finals series? Why can't it be us for just one season? While Premierships do not guarantee club longevity in this caper (look at Nth. Melbourne and recent speculation about them folding/moving interstate) I think we really need a premiership soon to get the critics of our back and to secure some much needed pride in this club. WE NEED SUCCESS and when it is not delivered (especially over such a long period of time) many questions are posed and disappointment continues. It's time to lift our standards and start expecting but as disappointment continues frustrations spill over, as was witnessed this week on WOOF.
1eyedog, I'm the same age as you, and the thing I crave in relation to supporting the Dogs more than anything else is the credibility and respect our club will receive on the back of premiership success. I want our team to stare expectation in the face and beat it down with a stick - too often in our history we have been intimidated by the expectation of success and dragged down as a result. Going back historically, we missed major opportunities to build sustained dynasties of success, both immediatelty after our premiership (worth noting that we were the first of the 1925 expansion teams to win a flag, and both Hawthorn and North have since won 13 flags combined), and also in the 70's, when we built a young list the envy of the competition, but our disastrous management off the field forced us to sell off our most prized assets just to keep our heads above water.

For the majority of my time supporting the Dogs, we've been nothing short of competitive, but unfortunately we have consistently fallen short when the stakes are at their highest. The historical millstone around our neck reflects that, with so many heart-breaking losses over the journey like the 5 prelims losses without victory in any of them, the craptacular capituation against Hawthorn in last year's first final, Round 22 1987, Round 21 2005, elim final 1976, first final 1999, Billy Brownless after the siren, etc... These games have had a detrimental effect on the psyche of the supporters, and I can't help feeling that the club itself is similarly detrimentally affected. It's clearly not a player-driven issue because the playing group has turned over multiple times over the last 30 years, yet the results in high-pressure stakes have not changed during that period of time. Malthouse, Wheeler, Joyce, Wallace, Eade, all of them (bar Wheeler) have enjoyed the ultimate success as players or coaches, but they have all failed to unlock the key to premiership success during their time at the kennel.

The West Coast loss, in particular the manner of our performance in the first 45 minutes, brought all these insecurities flooding back to the surface, considering the importance of the result from a double-chance perspective. I'd love to think we can steamroll 6 wins on the trot en route to a famous premiership in 2009 but in my heart of hearts, I can't say I truly believe this is possible.

[lemmon]

Isn't Eade's preference for older players self-fulfilling then? The kids aren't blooded, so by default cannot be ready for the big ones. Keep on playing Eagle, Hahn and Welsh when you should be playing a kid instead of at least one of them and then you end up having to play them because the kids haven't got enough experience for the crunch games.

I agree whole heartedly, I think the list managment at times this year has been particularly poor. Look at how Malthouse goes about it, he has faith in the kids to come into the side and perform big roles and now their depth is reaping the rewards. I think we have missed opportunites with the young guys in regards to giving them some game time and improving our depth as a result.

[The Pie Man]

I wonder if the club sense how dirty the fan base is at last Saturday - aside from the obvious disappointment they know any loss..or even upset loss...would bring to their members, this week has shown this loss hurt the supporters more than most.

One thing I've noticed when we've been potential flag fancies is that there's always one lingering doubt. We had Grant in the late 90's playing well in the forward line, but our 'downhill skier' style of game wasn't going to get it done in September (which is why 97 remains such a lost opportunity as the rest of the league hadn't adjusted to our style of play)

Now our contested footy is recognised and respected, but we lack the big key forward.

We still have time this year to wipe these doubts.....though with St Kilda progressing the way they have, those 3rd quarter misses in last years prelim hurt even more now. But **&^ it, we can beat em.

[1eyedog]

1eyedog, I'm the same age as you, and the thing I crave in relation to supporting the Dogs more than anything else is the credibility and respect our club will receive on the back of premiership success. I want our team to stare expectation in the face and beat it down with a stick - too often in our history we have been intimidated by the expectation of success and dragged down as a result. Going back historically, we missed major opportunities to build sustained dynasties of success, both immediatelty after our premiership (worth noting that we were the first of the 1925 expansion teams to win a flag, and both Hawthorn and North have since won 13 flags combined), and also in the 70's, when we built a young list the envy of the competition, but our disastrous management off the field forced us to sell off our most prized assets just to keep our heads above water.

For the majority of my time supporting the Dogs, we've been nothing short of competitive, but unfortunately we have consistently fallen short when the stakes are at their highest. The historical millstone around our neck reflects that, with so many heart-breaking losses over the journey like the 5 prelims losses without victory in any of them, the craptacular capituation against Hawthorn in last year's first final, Round 22 1987, Round 21 2005, elim final 1976, first final 1999, Billy Brownless after the siren, etc... These games have had a detrimental effect on the psyche of the supporters, and I can't help feeling that the club itself is similarly detrimentally affected. It's clearly not a player-driven issue because the playing group has turned over multiple times over the last 30 years, yet the results in high-pressure stakes have not changed during that period of time. Malthouse, Wheeler, Joyce, Wallace, Eade, all of them (bar Wheeler) have enjoyed the ultimate success as players or coaches, but they have all failed to unlock the key to premiership success during their time at the kennel.

The West Coast loss, in particular the manner of our performance in the first 45 minutes, brought all these insecurities flooding back to the surface, considering the importance of the result from a double-chance perspective. I'd love to think we can steamroll 6 wins on the trot en route to a famous premiership in 2009 but in my heart of hearts, I can't say I truly believe this is possible.

Enjoyed that post which was so aptly put. Yes it has been a long and rocky relationship which will continue until I die. There are three certainties in life; taxes, death and the fact that I'll be a Bulldog until it comes time to pull the pin. I just hope, as you and all WOOF posters do, that we snatch at least one big one before then.

[GVGjr]

Good discussion GVGjr but for me the issues you raised in your post are just a sprinkling of snow on what is Mt Everest. I guess what makes me so disappointed with the points you have raised is the fact that we have been waiting 55 years for a premiership. Now I'm only 37 but in that time, I like all fellow WOOF posters I'm sure, have been through seasons of expectation and disappointment. I could live with a current rebuild like Sydney or the Eagles if we had a recent Premiership cup in the trophy room. Hell, I could even live with being a Richmond supporter if we had won a Premiership in 1980 I reckon.

I realise that this reply may be selfish and unnecessarily harsh and it must be stated here that I will always be a loyal and true Bulldog fan, but how long do we have to wait for our next Premiership? Why are we NEVER the favourite going into a finals series? Why can't it be us for just one season? While Premierships do not guarantee club longevity in this caper (look at Nth. Melbourne and recent speculation about them folding/moving interstate) I think we really need a premiership soon to get the critics of our back and to secure some much needed pride in this club. WE NEED SUCCESS and when it is not delivered (especially over such a long period of time) many questions are posed and disappointment continues. It's time to lift our standards and start expecting but as disappointment continues frustrations spill over, as was witnessed this week on WOOF.

This is definitely not directed at you but the only problem I have with the way that some Bulldog supporters quote the history of the club is that is so inconsistently applied and only comes to the surface in a forceful way after a loss.
We were shocking against the Dockers as well but because we got the 4 points this wasn't as big of an issue for so many.
I have also never embraced the inference that because some supporters don't yell and scream at the club or get stuck into a few players or the coach after a loss that we are apparently accepting mediocrity. I haven't met too many Doggies supporters that are just happy for the club to exist and I'm as sure as I can be that the players, coaches and all the board members want us to win as badly as I do.

I understand the frustration because it bugs me as well but ripping into the players, the coach or the perceived club culture won't change too much.

[mjp]

ps. And you really should check out the off-line calibre/credentials of WOOF posters before slagging us off collectively as 'having very little knowledge of the game'.

How is anyone supposed to do that exactly?

[Topdog]

How is anyone supposed to do that exactly?

type the username into google?

You are either a computer store or a university.

[LostDoggy]

No, it's actually just Eagleton....:D

Jokes aside, I think lemmon makes a good point. Prior to the Collingwood game we were tracking very nicely and many of us were probably thinking "this could be the year!".

Like Icarus flying too close to the sun, we've hurtled back to Earth in the proceeding weeks and it's never nice to get a reality check.

IMO Comrade, you've hit the nail on the head. It was quite a reality check, and I for one, didn't want to rant about the coach or the team this last week (I respect other's right to do so, but for me, it gives me no pleasure nor would it ease the pain.) I have accepted that perhaps this year, isn't THE year. Looking at teams who win GF's, it seems there has to be a synergy of many different components - confidence, strong bodies, experience, confidence, blend of young & olders players, oh, and did I say, confidence, especially in one another. When we are on song, we are playing for one another, looking out for a team-mate, protecting the ball carrier, etc. In my limited knowledge, it seems that when pressure is applied, we forget these things, and I lament at how many times I see a player handballing to another who has 3 opposition players very close to him. I know our time's coming soon, just perhaps not this year :o

[LostDoggy]

How is anyone supposed to do that exactly?

The same way we do anything in life.. by learning as we go along and not slagging people off the moment you meet them (or even before).

I, for example, didn't know you were such a well-credentialed coach until a few weeks into my time here on WOOF. I also only found out what everyone else did slowly, but you only do that as you build credibility, especially on a relatively anonymous forum like this.

[mjp]

I, for example, didn't know you were such a well-credentialed coach...

And without meaning to be smart, you still dont know this for a fact - and even if it were true it is irrelevant to whatever else I might say.

Back to your original point though, if everyone would simply STOP pointing fingers and throwing insults around every time they read an opinion contrary to their own this would be a happier place. And if everyone would stop being so precious about how others respond to their comments, this would be a happier place to be....and I fell for this one last week by responding to the comment about 'the worst post I have ever read'.

From where I sit though, I am pretty much sick of all the mud slinging that occurs after each loss. The complete assassination of players and coaches, the shredding of the game plan, the continued call for tall forwards (if we dont score), tall backs (if St Kilda or Hawthorn get hold of us) and general decrying of players level of skill and/or effort which in many cases (particularly skill level) was pretty much the same as it was the week before and will be the week after.

I guess it is good that as supporters we now expect success. But it is simply unrealistic to expect a perfect performance every week...I understand the disappointment when we dont play well - I feel it too. But I just wish everyone would remember how hard it is (or in the case of many of us (including me) was!) to play the game...and how the mothers/wives/daughters/sons of the players would feel if they were to read what was said about them by people purporting to support the club.

[Rocket Science]

Back to your original point though, if everyone would simply STOP pointing fingers and throwing insults around every time they read an opinion contrary to their own this would be a happier place. And if everyone would stop being so precious about how others respond to their comments, this would be a happier place to be....and I fell for this one last week by responding to the comment about 'the worst post I have ever read'.

Agree wholeheartedly about the level of preciousness on here, especially of late...


From where I sit though, I am pretty much sick of all the mud slinging that occurs after each loss. The complete assassination of players and coaches, the shredding of the game plan, the continued call for tall forwards (if we dont score), tall backs (if St Kilda or Hawthorn get hold of us) and general decrying of players level of skill and/or effort which in many cases (particularly skill level) was pretty much the same as it was the week before and will be the week after.

I guess it is good that as supporters we now expect success. But it is simply unrealistic to expect a perfect performance every week...I understand the disappointment when we dont play well - I feel it too. But I just wish everyone would remember how hard it is (or in the case of many of us (including me) was!) to play the game...and how the mothers/wives/daughters/sons of the players would feel if they were to read what was said about them by people purporting to support the club.


Aside from what I'd categorize as pretty uncommon exceptions, which are typically highlighted and dealt with promptly such are the standards around here, I'm having trouble recalling too many statements which cross the proverbial line and hark into the sort of territory you're describing...unless you're arguing supporters aren't entitled to exercise their critical faculties when opining on the progress of their football club.

I'm talking about the bulk of discourse on here, not the spiteful ranting of the occasional shit-stirrer, which I don't find at all representative of WOOF.

Of course nobody expects weekly perfection, and I've never heard it requested...but even Stevie Wonder could tell you many of the specific gripes you've mentioned relate to perfectly valid team issues at various points, and all of which have been justifiably raised and discussed on these forums, often with conviction and insight.

Our game plan is often found wanting...Our structure is often our achilles heel...Our skill level routinely wanes, and our collective and individual effort-level sometimes does likewise. It's all proven to be fact at various stages, and it's hardly 'assassination' to lament these things, if done with a modicum of diplomacy.

When people get the shits they're surely as entitled to share those sentiments as freely and validly as when everything's peachy, short of being irrational or vindictive.

Speaking personally, I derive more value from posts with realistic and considered criticisms of the club, than some of the thoughtless happyland drivel that routinely passes for comment.

[mjp]

Of course nobody expects weekly perfection, and I've never heard it requested...but even Stevie Wonder could tell you many of the specific gripes you've mentioned relate to perfectly valid team issues at various points, and all of which have been justifiably raised and discussed on these forums, often with conviction and insight.

Our game plan is often found wanting...Our structure is often our achilles heel...Our skill level routinely wanes, and our collective and individual effort-level sometimes does likewise. It's all proven to be fact at various stages, and it's hardly 'assassination' to lament these things, if done with a modicum of diplomacy.

When people get the shits they're surely as entitled to share those sentiments as freely and validly as when everything's peachy, short of being irrational or vindictive.


Can I say I disagree wholeheartedly...particularly to the 'with conviction and insight' part? Well, I guess they are discussed with conviction.

[bornadog]

Can I say I disagree wholeheartedly...particularly to the 'with conviction and insight' part? Well, I guess they are discussed with conviction.

I also disagree with RS. The week following the loss to West Coast, the board went into meltdown and it was basically the end of the season according to a large proportion of posters. I purposely didn't post much that week as people were upset at the loss and were posting things based on emotions rather than sitting back and analysing why we lost.

[Topdog]

It's all well and good to talk about our structure but there is literally no way to change it. I believe we are playing our best footy we actually use the ball and spread it around going into the F50 at many different angles instead of just bombing it long to no one. Calls for players like Skipper are just the stuff of fantasy.

That WC game pissed me off like no other. Even if we had won that game I would have been riled by it because I expect the players to show up each week. Sure that is unrealistic but when you have a top 4 spot up for grabs and no one cares for the first half it really shit me.

The other losses have never stung anywhere near as much and I have never been as annoyed as I was last week.

[LostDoggy]

And without meaning to be smart, you still dont know this for a fact - and even if it were true it is irrelevant to whatever else I might say.



I think there's the principle of reasonable doubt. If we've been here for a while and some people seem to know you personally and GVGjr vouches for you etc. etc. etc.. I doubt that WOOF is an elaborate hoax designed to get me to think that you're not who you say you are!

And again, track record. Your intelligent and consistent posting record gives you the 'right' to vent your spleen if you so wish.. you've built up 'credits' in the WOOF bank, so to speak. It's when posters no one has ever seen before show up and start slinging mud around indiscriminately that I take exception to.

[LostDoggy]

I also disagree with RS. The week following the loss to West Coast, the board went into meltdown and it was basically the end of the season according to a large proportion of posters. I purposely didn't post much that week as people were upset at the loss and were posting things based on emotions rather than sitting back and analysing why we lost.

This is undoubtedly true, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater -- if you filtered out the obviously venting posts, there were plenty of others discussing the practical consequences of the loss.

We can't meaningfully discuss issues like low membership numbers, 6,500 (!!!) non-renewals, low attendances at milestone games like Johnno's record breaker etc. without acknowledging the elephant in the room that is the legacy of the internal culture of the club (admittedly much improved in recent times), continued lack of sustained success, inconsistency of performance, and the all-too-regular occurance of letting golden opportunities slip.

Of course all clubs commit similar mistakes; the point is that we have a far smaller margin for error, being a small(er) club, opportunities are rarer (as proven by history: no grand finals and only a handful of prelims in 55 years) and must be grasped with more urgency when they do occur, and the frustration is that this urgency does not seem to be understood or shared by many in the playing group (I'm sure the coaching staff and the senior players get it, it just doesn't seem to be a consistent, burning desire across the group/club.. as Chris Grant said).