Player and Team Development.

[bulldogtragic]

I was having a chat with a poster's dad last night and we were talking about older guys and opportunities.

I found myself comparing St Kilda to the dogs in terms of gun players who aged but never got the ultimate success (i.e: Wunmar, Burke, Harvey, Buckets etc VS West, Grant, Smith, Honson etc). The discussion was how about when their old guns and loved sons retires, they have founf improvement and success.

Then i got thinking about when Smith left, more responsibility fell on Gilbee and others, and with more freedom and responsibility they flourished. When Grant was no longer the bail out option down back, Dale and Brian has to take charge, and they are doing a great job. When West went down last year Cross and Boyd have taken their game to another level.

So whilst we all love these older guys, the talent behind them in the recent past has flourished when they have moved on. So the conversation moved onto which players should make way for talented kids (especially taller forwards kids) and which kids could best take their opportunities. I won't breach the privacy of the conversation, but if you accept the basic premise,

A) who do you think could/should retire (not just on form, but to allow team development), and
B) which player should replace them, and
C) can they improve the side with the gametime and extra responsibility?

[boydogs]

Possible replacements -

Welsh/Grant
Hahn/Cordy
Hudson/Roughead
Eagle/Everitt
Johnson/Boumann
Aker/Stack

Having said that, I think the theory points more towards not getting Hall than it does retiring anyone currently on the list to improve the side

[Sockeye Salmon]

I don't think it's quite as simple as that.

For starters, we were able to play Lake on good players safe in the knowledge that if he wasn't quite up to it we could always rely on Turtle.

We did try lots of other guys who failed miserably, so Lake and Morris have only been successful because they are good enough, a dud is still a dud regardless of opportunity.

It's not like we have a heap of gun big guys keeping the young blokes out.

If Grant/Cordy/Roughead/Boumann were tearing it up a Willi Eade would find a spot for them.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

If Grant/Cordy/Roughead/Boumann were tearing it up a Willi Eade would find a spot for them.

Spot on and I would add it comes down to having depth on the list also. An example of this is Skipper. We kept him as a back up and he has played well at Willi.

The other hand some guys need a little more time prior to the step up otherwise we could have another Zac Dawson.

[LostDoggy]

Guy O'Keefe coming in for Aker if he retires.
I am pretty sure that Higgins can cover for Johnson

Or maybe just rest the older players, after a long run.

[Mofra]

Guy O'Keefe coming in for Aker if he retires.

Polar opposites. Aker's appetite for training and workrate is legendary.
G O'K is the slowest & least fit at the club.

[LostDoggy]

If Grant/Cordy/Roughead/Boumann were tearing it up a Willi Eade would find a spot for them.

Skipper and O'Keefe HAVE been tearing it up at Willi. I doubt Eade is racking his brain trying to get them into the team.

[comrade]

Skipper and O'Keefe HAVE been tearing it up at Willi. I doubt Eade is racking his brain trying to get them into the team.

Completely different proposition.

We need key position players at both ends of the ground.
We don’t need a plodding lurker and an undersized ruckman.

[LostDoggy]

Completely different proposition.

We need key position players at both ends of the ground.
We don’t need a plodding lurker and an undersized ruckman.

Boy, in my day, 'plodding lurkers' were called smart players with quick hands who could navigate traffic and knew their way around a pack.

Jobe Watson would qualify as a 'plodding lurker', would he not?

[comrade]

Boy, in my day, 'plodding lurkers' were called smart players with quick hands who could navigate traffic and knew their way around a pack.

Jobe Watson would qualify as a 'plodding lurker', would he not?

Yes, once upon a time (you could chuck Crossy in the same boat) – the difference is they put in the work on the track to become elite endurance athletes.

They might run slowly, but they’ll do it for longer than anyone else. Poor GOK is still arguably the unfittest mid-sized player on the list, despite having 2 years to get himself to the level Rocket requires.

Tales of his off-field attitude (missing rehab sessions etc) don’t fill me with confidence that he can turn it around.

[Desipura]

Its interesting that O'Keefe's deficiencies have been highlighted before he has even played a senior game. Talk of him likely to be traded at years end I also find amusing.
Has there been any other player that has received the same level of scrutiny at reserves level?

[LostDoggy]

Yes, once upon a time (you could chuck Crossy in the same boat) – the difference is they put in the work on the track to become elite endurance athletes.

They might run slowly, but they’ll do it for longer than anyone else. Poor GOK is still arguably the unfittest mid-sized player on the list, despite having 2 years to get himself to the level Rocket requires.

Tales of his off-field attitude (missing rehab sessions etc) don’t fill me with confidence that he can turn it around.

I have no doubt that this is true, but how then does he continue to keep finding the pill, and kicking multiple goals in the VFL? I know that the AFL > VFL by some margin, but a completely unfit player can't keep racking up the numbers he does (even at that level) and keep getting named in the bests week in week out. It's not as if he struggles to run games out either. If anything, it speaks of a player who has learnt to operate within his limits, and has the brains to excel at an elite level despite his shortcomings.

This is truly a conundrum, and a shame that the AFL has evolved to the point that you can get a game (or are given every chance to) because you are built like a giraffe, can run fast, or jump high, even if you've never played the game before (how much is Karmicheal Hunt going to be paid?) and can't kick, handball or read the play, while true, instinctive footballers will be forever doomed to hit the glass ceiling of the VFL.

The athlete/footballer balance has tipped too far in far too many cases, in my opinion, and the AFL is poorer for it (in my opinion).

[GVGjr]

They might run slowly, but they’ll do it for longer than anyone else. Poor GOK is still arguably the unfittest mid-sized player on the list, despite having 2 years to get himself to the level Rocket requires.

Tales of his off-field attitude (missing rehab sessions etc) don’t fill me with confidence that he can turn it around.
The thing that surprises me with this is that his 4th quarters have generally been good ones for him and if anything from what I have seen he's a bit slow out of the blocks.
If the way he finishes off games is anything to gauge him on I'm not sure I share Rockets views.
No doubt he could be fitter but I haven't seen him give anywhere near the signs that Grant does that he's a spent force and needs a spell. I also think Wood has a long way to go with his fitness.

[LostDoggy]

Its interesting that O'Keefe's deficiencies have been highlighted before he has even played a senior game. Talk of him likely to be traded at years end I also find amusing.
Has there been any other player that has received the same level of scrutiny at reserves level?

Good point.Its just as well he can seriously play imagine if he hadnt been so outstanding with his form the last 2 years.50 + goals & a stack of quality possesions playing as a high half forward/mid.
If he hadn't done so well imagine how much Mofra would bag him & now even Comrade who seemed to be a fan of his talent is potting him.He is a much more than the 'Lurker'Comrade has dubbed him.Just a question where do you expect a High Hff to play at least he doesnt lurk only near the goal square?
Personally i think he doesnt play enough in the midfield he should definately start there. I think that is a must if Willy is to be successful in the finals.Ask any Willy forward who they would want delivering them the ball he would win hands down.
The feedback i got from a melbourne supporter was that Guy went onto the ball in the 3rd Qtr & changed the game,he was phenomenal with workrate & owned the ball.He said that he would walk into the Melbourne team.So i guess that Comrade's comments that he will be stuck in the Vfl is laughable,he is a class above at 19!
He will play AFL sadly it may not be with the Dogs.Which is crazy i.m.o.
Bemusingly there is another player drafted much earlier who has perfomed very poorly yet escapes the scrutiny that Guy gets from a minority of posters.Bizarre!

[comrade]

The thing that surprises me with this is that his 4th quarters have generally been good ones for him and if anything from what I have seen he's a bit slow out of the blocks.
If the way he finishes off games is anything to gauge him on I'm not sure I share Rockets views.
No doubt he could be fitter but I haven't seen him give anywhere near the signs that Grant does that he's a spent force and needs a spell. I also think Wood has a long way to go with his fitness.

I watched him pretty closely on the weekend and he’s not the type of player that is constantly moving/running when not in the play.

A number of times he was literally just standing by himself in the middle of the ground waiting for a turnover – that could either be negatively interpreted as him ‘lurking’ rather than busting a gut to provide an option or positively interpreted as him playing within his limits, knowing where to be to win the ball and conserving his energy because he knows he isn’t fit enough to run all day.

Grant has to be the un-fittest 20 year old footballer of all time – I’ve seen chunky bush league players who can lead more than once without blowing up.

Also, I agree with you on Wood – he did fade as he got fatigued on the weekend and needs to build his tank, however, he is a power athlete and will be a burst player not unlike Griff.

[AndrewP6]

Bemusingly there is another player drafted much earlier who has perfomed very poorly yet escapes the scrutiny that Guy gets from a minority of posters.Bizarre!

But Farren Ray gets plenty of criticism... ;)

[comrade]

If he hadn't done so well imagine how much Mofra would bag him & now even Comrade who seemed to be a fan of his talent is potting him.He is a much more than the 'Lurker'Comrade has dubbed him.Just a question where do you expect a High Hff to play at least he doesnt lurk only near the goal square?


Pump the breaks, PupDog.

I’ve never potted him (calling him a plodder/lurker is apt, IMO) and I still rate his natural football talent – but I prefer to analyse his game from a reasonably objective view point, rather than fly off the handle as you have done.

Despite you not actually seeing him play on the weekend, you are correct – he was highly influential in patches, and good in others but if Gotch thought he could handle running out an entire game in the midfield, I’m sure he’d play him there. The fact that he doesn’t suggests that his fitness is an issue.

I wish he had debuted earlier this year, as we’d know either way how he can handle the increase in intensity – unfortunately, all we can do is throw our opinions around.

What I will say is this – lot’s of plodders and lurkers have made it as successful AFL footballers, but it wasn’t natural talent or footballing nous that got them there. It was the hard work and sacrifice that ensured they got themselves to the level required.

If Guy has done everything he possibly could to get the best out of himself then it’s a real shame that Rocket hasn’t given him a run. If he hasn’t done the work, then he only has himself to blame.

[alwaysadog]

Grant has to be the un-fittest 20 year old footballer of all time – I’ve seen chunky bush league players who can lead more than once without blowing up.

Please no, not our very own Pebble!

[LostDoggy]

I have no doubt that this is true, but how then does he continue to keep finding the pill, and kicking multiple goals in the VFL? I know that the AFL > VFL by some margin, but a completely unfit player can't keep racking up the numbers he does (even at that level) and keep getting named in the bests week in week out. It's not as if he struggles to run games out either. If anything, it speaks of a player who has learnt to operate within his limits, and has the brains to excel at an elite level despite his shortcomings.

This is truly a conundrum, and a shame that the AFL has evolved to the point that you can get a game (or are given every chance to) because you are built like a giraffe, can run fast, or jump high, even if you've never played the game before (how much is Karmicheal Hunt going to be paid?) and can't kick, handball or read the play, while true, instinctive footballers will be forever doomed to hit the glass ceiling of the VFL.

The athlete/footballer balance has tipped too far in far too many cases, in my opinion, and the AFL is poorer for it (in my opinion).

Great Post Lantern.
I also agree that the game is poorer for the imbalance towards athletes rather than naturals like Guy.
GVG makes a great point about Guy running out games strongly this year.My theory on this is that he is fitter than last year & his tackling & workrate have improved greatly.
GVG do you think he is slow to start some games because he is starting outside the middle & it can be hard to get into the game?
Once he goes onto the ball he seems to get on a roll & when he gets his hands on the ball his confidence rises & has a great influence on how Willy perform.For this reason i think it is essential he starts in the guts during the finals.
The other more important point is if fitness is the reason he hasn't debuted i would think that Rocket would want him to play as much as possible on the ball to improve this fitness.

[LostDoggy]

Pump the breaks, PupDog.

I’ve never potted him (calling him a plodder/lurker is apt, IMO) and I still rate his natural football talent – but I prefer to analyse his game from a reasonably objective view point, rather than fly off the handle as you have done.

Despite you not actually seeing him play on the weekend, you are correct – he was highly influential in patches, and good in others but if Gotch thought he could handle running out an entire game in the midfield, I’m sure he’d play him there. The fact that he doesn’t suggests that his fitness is an issue.

I wish he had debuted earlier this year, as we’d know either way how he can handle the increase in intensity – unfortunately, all we can do is throw our opinions around.

What I will say is this – lot’s of plodders and lurkers have made it as successful AFL footballers, but it wasn’t natural talent or footballing nous that got them there. It was the hard work and sacrifice that ensured they got themselves to the level required.

If Guy has done everything he possibly could to get the best out of himself then it’s a real shame that Rocket hasn’t given him a run. If he hasn’t done the work, then he only has himself to blame.

Good points Comrade.
Tho i do think you have potted him in comparision to your pumping up of Boumann.Lol!
I am a big fan of Boumann too.
Maybe Gotch starts Guy outside of the middle so he does run out games strongly.
Love to see him in the middle early more during the finals tho.

[GVGjr]

Good point.Its just as well he can seriously play imagine if he hadnt been so outstanding with his form the last 2 years.50 + goals & a stack of quality possesions playing as a high half forward/mid.
If he hadn't done so well imagine how much Mofra would bag him & now even Comrade who seemed to be a fan of his talent is potting him.He is a much more than the 'Lurker'Comrade has dubbed him.Just a question where do you expect a High Hff to play at least he doesnt lurk only near the goal square?
Personally i think he doesnt play enough in the midfield he should definately start there. I think that is a must if Willy is to be successful in the finals.Ask any Willy forward who they would want delivering them the ball he would win hands down.
The feedback i got from a melbourne supporter was that Guy went onto the ball in the 3rd Qtr & changed the game,he was phenomenal with workrate & owned the ball.He said that he would walk into the Melbourne team.So i guess that Comrade's comments that he will be stuck in the Vfl is laughable,he is a class above at 19!
He will play AFL sadly it may not be with the Dogs.Which is crazy i.m.o.
Bemusingly there is another player drafted much earlier who has perfomed very poorly yet escapes the scrutiny that Guy gets from a minority of posters.Bizarre!

A couple of things here Pupdog.
1) I find Comrades views on the Williamstown side more than fair in fact if anything he pumps up a lot more tyres than he deflates. To say he has been "potting O'Keefe" is way off the mark.

2) I don't disagree with your observation that the forwards would like to have the ball in O'Keefe's hands than some of the other midfielders.

I'm not sure if he will stay or go at the end of the season but I do feel that we have missed a great chance to see if he had the talent and the game to be a part of the clubs longer term plans.

[GVGjr]

Great Post Lantern.

GVG makes a great point about Guy running out games strongly this year.My theory on this is that he is fitter than last year & his tackling & workrate have improved greatly.


He's fitness has improved on last year but lets face it, it had to.




GVG do you think he is slow to start some games because he is starting outside the middle & it can be hard to get into the game?
Once he goes onto the ball he seems to get on a roll & when he gets his hands on the ball his confidence rises & has a great influence on how Willy perform.For this reason i think it is essential he starts in the guts during the finals.

He has to be more than a one trick pony so I don't see that as an issue for him. Often in the first quarters he will spray a kick or have it picked off. From the second quarter that doesn't happen as much.

He has great hands and a quick mind but whilst he might not be able to get much faster he can improve his fitness a fair bit. He needs to model his game on Scott Wests from a stamina perspective.

[Mantis]

A number of times he was literally just standing by himself in the middle of the ground waiting for a turnover – that could either be negatively interpreted as him ‘lurking’ rather than busting a gut to provide an option or positively interpreted as him playing within his limits, knowing where to be to win the ball and conserving his energy because he knows he isn’t fit enough to run all day.



Bryce Gibbs played that exact same role against us earlier on in the season and put us to the sword.

[Ozza]

Bryce Gibbs played that exact same role against us earlier on in the season and put us to the sword.

I think its extremely risky to play that way - in today's footy - where both 18's are often back and forth and in the same half of the ground at the same time, O'Keefe would have to be covering so much more ground at AFL level.

Perhaps its fair enough at VFL level - where he can be damaging - but he is going to get hurt the other way playing like that for the Bulldogs. I agree that Gibbs played that role and killed us earlier this year (to a certain extent - as he still did some defensive work) - but Gibbs can play in that fashion because he is one of the best kicks in the comp and reads the play tremendously well.