The Jarrod Grant Conundrum

[LostDoggy]

( I need something to distract me from todays result )

I know that patience is supposed to be a virtue but I'd like to revisit our decision to draft Grant a couple of seasons back.

It's becoming obvious that despite Eades comments about Grant playing a significant role in the 2009 season he is now very unlikely that he will play much in the 2010 season. He's omission out of the Williamstown seniors on form is a real concern.
Yes he has carried injuries including OP in his first year, yes he was physically under-developed when we drafted him but lets face it he's not the key position forward that he was advertised to us as and hes going to take a lot of time to see if he will make it or not.

Consider the bigger players we overlooked in the draft.
Ben McEvoy, a 200cm ruckman and forward. How nice would it be to have him and Roughead to back up Minson in 2011 when Hudson's retired?
Lachlan Henderson, a 196cm key forward. He's stuck behind Brown and Bradshaw and hasn't done much but he still appears a better option.
Harry Taylor, a 194cm defender who pinch hits forward. Hardly missed a beat since being recruited by the Cats.

The smaller guys.
Palmer, Rioli and Dangerfield.

Are you still confident that Grant will be a good player for us in the coming years ? It seems to me that he will have to be a ripper to not only break even for our 5th pick investment but to also catch up to some of the other players already racking up senior games. I have doubts over how genuine Claytons reputation is as a top recruiter and see this selection as one of the yardsticks of his tenure with us.

[DOG GOD]

Grant will be a Murphy clone but nowhere near as good in my opinion.

[Mofra]

Grant will be a Murphy clone but nowhere near as good in my opinion.
Murphy is a workhorse - Grant is the complete opposite, very small tank.

I'm worried that Grant will be a career-tease, playing brilliantly one game per month. He is certainly someone who will peak late in his career; hopefully Bulldog fans are patient enough to wait.

[Dry Rot]

I reckon it's hard to tell until he puts on some size.

[DOG GOD]

Murphy is a workhorse - Grant is the complete opposite, very small tank.

Other than size, isnt that the other main thing the club is working on with him. IF he does get a decent tank, then i see him being a Murphy type lead-up fwd more than a KPP, and like i said, he wont do it as well as Murph, but thats where he will fit in our structure.

[Before I Die]

Other than size, isnt that the other main thing the club is working on with him. IF he does get a decent tank, then i see him being a Murphy type lead-up fwd more than a KPP, and like i said, he wont do it as well as Murph, but thats where he will fit in our structure.

Hmmm.... let me see. A Murphy type lead up forward who is 193 cm tall. That sounds like a pretty accurate description of Nick Riewoldt. I bet the St Kilda fans are disappointed that they haven't got a true CHF.

[comrade]

Other than size, isnt that the other main thing the club is working on with him. IF he does get a decent tank, then i see him being a Murphy type lead-up fwd more than a KPP, and like i said, he wont do it as well as Murph, but thats where he will fit in our structure.

Rocket sees him as eventually playing out of the goal square.

[azabob]

Rocket sees him as eventually playing out of the goal square.

Interesting you / Eade say that. My question is why is he playing mainly across the Half Forward line in the lower grade?

[Mofra]

Other than size, isnt that the other main thing the club is working on with him. IF he does get a decent tank, then i see him being a Murphy type lead-up fwd more than a KPP, and like i said, he wont do it as well as Murph, but thats where he will fit in our structure.
It's all about genetics (to borrow a phrase from Gia). He simply does not have the lung capacity to develop the gut-running style of a Murphy. He's a FF more than a HF type.

I hope he gets a bit of size & gets on the paddock because he has a beautiful set of hands. Everything else is a bit sketchy now but he could be a gun.

[comrade]

Interesting you / Eade say that. My question is why is he playing mainly across the Half Forward line in the lower grade?

Gotch plays him there, despite it not suiting either his fitness base or playing style.

[Scorlibo]

Neither McEvoy or Henderson could have made the necessary impact in our forwardline by this stage. I'd still take Grant, he has all the right tools, he just needs attitude, kind Williamstown coaching (ie. playing him out of the goal square), some muscle and a better tank.

[azabob]

Gotch plays him there, despite it not suiting either his fitness base or playing style.

Yes you are right its Gotch's call.
That is the one consistant comment you have about Grant when you see him play, he is being played out of position.
Hopefully its all part of the grand plan in the long run.

[DOG GOD]

Hmmm.... let me see. A Murphy type lead up forward who is 193 cm tall. That sounds like a pretty accurate description of Nick Riewoldt. I bet the St Kilda fans are disappointed that they haven't got a true CHF.

Might sound like a pretty accurate description of Riewoldt...i wish we had Riewoldt, coz Grant wont be as good as Roo's toenail.

[GVGjr]

Neither McEvoy or Henderson could have made the necessary impact in our forwardline by this stage. I'd still take Grant, he has all the right tools, he just needs attitude, kind Williamstown coaching (ie. playing him out of the goal square), some muscle and a better tank.

Granted either of them would have made much of a difference to our side this year although McEvoy has come along well as a back-up ruckman.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting you / Eade say that. My question is why is he playing mainly across the Half Forward line in the lower grade?
It's to build his fitness base and given that the Seagulls already have Little in the square it's a logical spot for him.
My problem with Grant is that he doesn't look like he will develop into a key forward and might just be a version of what Everitt currently is in the back half. We need more than that from him.

[Remi Moses]

Mcevoy is a ruckman and the jury is still out on Henderson. Let's all take a deep breath and just give Grant 12 months please!!!

[LostDoggy]

Mcevoy is a ruckman and the jury is still out on Henderson. Let's all take a deep breath and just give Grant 12 months please!!!

I would agree with this.

Some players are different performers in the VFL, compared to AFL. Grant may or may not be one of those players, but i would like to see him given a few more games at AFL level, before i make the call on whether or not he is good enough.

From what i have seen of Grant at AFL level, during that first game & NAB Cup. I think he will be a decent footballer, works hard to tackle, and the strong leading mark he took against Carlton was very nice. Still needs a lot of time put into him, to be a real consistent performer, but you can see there is something there.

[alwaysadog]

I would agree with this.

Some players are different performers in the VFL, compared to AFL. Grant may or may not be one of those players, but i would like to see him given a few more games at AFL level, before i make the call on whether or not he is good enough.

From what i have seen of Grant at AFL level, during that first game & NAB Cup. I think he will be a decent footballer, works hard to tackle, and the strong leading mark he took against Carlton was very nice. Still needs a lot of time put into him, to be a real consistent performer, but you can see there is something there.

Well put JH40.

Some players make consistent and steady progress, others are more eratic and I suspect that Grant might be one of those. Ealry on this year he showed plenty but the grind of the season has got to him and I'm not sure if it's all physical or other things as well.

I'm interested in asking if anyone knows about his mental toughness. Just observing from the outside I wonder about his self belief.

[Mofra]

I'm interested in asking if anyone knows about his mental toughness. Just observing from the outside I wonder about his self belief.
From my observations at Willy he really puts alot of pressure on himself to perform. Cordy does it too - they're absolutely filthy on themselves if they let an opportunity slip.

[mighty_west]

I'm certaintly not losing any faith in Grant, given his body size & under development, he was always going to take alot longer than some of the players in the same draft, McEvoy has the bigger body, he could no doubt play most games now if Gardener or King go down.

One of the problems for him down at Willy, is that he is being played out of position [as already stated], but that is due to Willy having better options in Little & Galea who are ahead of Grant right now, and you can understand Wiliamstown wanting to play their best players in the best positions for wins on the board and to win Premierships than just developing players for the Bulldogs, i have no doubt he'll jump ahead of Galea, not as sure about Little [i'm a big fan of him], but he does have the height over Little.

Perhaps given his body type & pace, they could give some time in the midfield, really try & build up his tank, give him a few run with roles down at Willy, he seems to get lost at times, his tackling is very good.

[Prince Imperial]

I have watched Grant a few times this year at VFL level and have been left completely underwhelmed. I think there are too many excuses being made for him. He's been playing in a strong Williamstown side with plenty of opportunities with the ball coming regularly forward and he has often avoided the best defender. He has had a pretty good year on the injury front too. He just does not demand the ball be kicked to him and I think that is as much to do with his footy smarts as his level of fitness. He does get visibly upset if he makes mistakes so I don't think its a lack of motivation

I very much hope I am wrong but he appears to be a massive waste of a number 5 pick.

[comrade]

However way you look at it, rightly or wrongly, I think Gotch has really hampered his development this year, in lieu of ensuring Williamstown wins at all costs.

Grant is a full forward, plain and simple. This year was crucial in him further developing not only the ability to lead to the right spot, but when to time his leads, which Eade himself has said he needs to work on.

By playing him as a lead up centre half forward when his body just wasn’t physically able to perform the role, meant he’s learnt nothing about the full forward position he will be asked to play for the Bulldogs and has smashed what ever confidence he had at the start of the season.

I love going to watch Williamstown and hope they’re successful, but a top 5 key position draft pick is a precious resource (particularly at the Bulldogs) and needs to be nurtured properly to ensure we get a return on investment – IMO Gotch has squandered that opportunity.

Don’t even get me started on Boumann playing a large chunk of games in the reserves ;)


Please note that Grant himself shouldn’t get off scot free. He needs to bust his a*** over the summer to get himself fit and strong enough to compete at the highest level and give himself the best possible chance to become the player we all hope he can be.

[mighty_west]

However way you look at it, rightly or wrongly, I think Gotch has really hampered his development this year, in lieu of ensuring Williamstown wins at all costs.

Grant is a full forward, plain and simple. This year was crucial in him further developing not only the ability to lead to the right spot, but when to time his leads, which Eade himself has said he needs to work on.

By playing him as a lead up centre half forward when his body just wasn’t physically able to perform the role, meant he’s learnt nothing about the full forward position he will be asked to play for the Bulldogs and has smashed what ever confidence he had at the start of the season.

I love going to watch Williamstown and hope they’re successful, but a top 5 key position draft pick is a precious resource (particularly at the Bulldogs) and needs to be nurtured properly to ensure we get a return on investment – IMO Gotch has squandered that opportunity.

Don’t even get me started on Boumann playing a large chunk of games in the reserves ;)

There are always going to be the same issues year after year unfortunatly as long as we are alligned with a VFL side.

Serious question, would we as supporters be happy to play say an extra 2 home games away from Melbourne to ensure we have our own stand alone VFL side?

[Hot_Doggies]

[QUOTE=comrade;111912]However way you look at it, rightly or wrongly, I think Gotch has really hampered his development this year, in lieu of ensuring Williamstown wins at all costs.
Grant is a full forward, plain and simple. This year was crucial in him further developing not only the ability to lead to the right spot, but when to time his leads, which Eade himself has said he needs to work on.

By playing him as a lead up centre half forward when his body just wasn’t physically able to perform the role, meant he’s learnt nothing about the full forward position he will be asked to play for the Bulldogs and has smashed what ever confidence he had at the start of the season.

[QUOTE]

Maybe Gotch thinks Grant is a natural FF already and teaching him a lead up CHF role will help him.

He will find his confidence quickly after a big pre season and he will come out firing next yr.

[Ozza]

If it means anything at all, yesterday I had lunch with someone who has played on Grant - and he thought Jarrod could play a bit and thought he could definitely make it once he fills out a bit.

[bulldogsman]

By playing him as a lead up centre half forward when his body just wasn’t physically able to perform the role, meant he’s learnt nothing about the full forward position he will be asked to play for the Bulldogs and has smashed what ever confidence he had at the start of the season.

Just a little story. The same thing happened to my mate who’s in his first year of AFL football. He was also played out of position to further his development, then towards the middle to end of season found himself in the VFL ressies. The coach was always into him and would point out the littlest of mistakes. After about 3 weeks in the reserves he was still playing like crap, so he had to tell the coach his confidence was shot. Then all of a sudden the coach changed his approach. He really started helping and encouraging him.

At the end of the season my mate said his performance was okay nothing special, but the club was really really happy and he got nothing but positive feedback. Now I don’t think his confidence has ever been so high and now he’s very excited about the pre season and wants to start in the next week or two (before he just wanted a holiday). Overall, I think it’s worked as an advantage as he’s a lot stronger mentally and he really wants to get the best out of himself.

I just hope the same happens with Grant and he too wants to get the best out of himself.

[mighty_west]

Just a little story. The same thing happened to my mate who’s in his first year of AFL football. He was also played out of position to further his development, then towards the middle to end of season found himself in the VFL ressies. The coach was always into him and would point out the littlest of mistakes. After about 3 weeks in the reserves he was still playing like crap, so he had to tell the coach his confidence was shot. Then all of a sudden the coach changed his approach. He really started helping and encouraging him.

At the end of the season my mate said his performance was okay nothing special, but the club was really really happy and he got nothing but positive feedback. Now I don’t think his confidence has ever been so high and now he’s very excited about the pre season and wants to start in the next week or two (before he just wanted a holiday). Overall, I think it’s worked as an advantage as he’s a lot stronger mentally and he really wants to get the best out of himself.

I just hope the same happens with Grant and he too wants to get the best out of himself.

You just wonder how much imput the senior coach has with the young recruits & rookies, you hear stories about when Brisbane were so strong, and Matthews couldn't care less pretty much with the younger players, and you hear about other players saying that the senior coach has bascially not communicated with them what so ever etc etc.

[azabob]

If it means anything at all, yesterday I had lunch with someone who has played on Grant - and he thought Jarrod could play a bit and thought he could definitely make it once he fills out a bit.

Watt did you say?;)

[Ozza]

^^^
Haha - you heard Watt I said.

[The Doctor]

However way you look at it, rightly or wrongly, I think Gotch has really hampered his development this year, in lieu of ensuring Williamstown wins at all costs.

Grant is a full forward, plain and simple. This year was crucial in him further developing not only the ability to lead to the right spot, but when to time his leads, which Eade himself has said he needs to work on.

By playing him as a lead up centre half forward when his body just wasn’t physically able to perform the role, meant he’s learnt nothing about the full forward position he will be asked to play for the Bulldogs and has smashed what ever confidence he had at the start of the season.


Comrade, let me offer a counter to your arguement.

Grant played some of the early games at full forward and did ok. Little seems to have taken over that role so Grant has been tried in other forward positions. I don't think that is a bad thing. I think playing upfield will help build his tank up which is apparantly not very big. If Grant can play multiple forward line positions it will increase his value to the team by giving us more options. In fact I would even try him across the half back line next season.



Don’t even get me started on Boumann playing a large chunk of games in the reserves ;)



Again I would offer this alternate view. I think Boumann has been handled sensationally well.

He has been made to earn his position in the Willi seniors. Nothing handed to him on a platter. He had to prove week in and week out in the ressies that he was worthy of the opportunity. He was promoted, did so so, then sent back. He was given a taste at senior level then went back worked hard again and got back into the senior side and has stayed there dislodging Wight in the process. I think that is how it should be. He now looks like he belongs. Well done to player, coach and development staff.

I reckon the Bulldogs senior side should make a couple of their senior players go through this but thats another debate.

[comrade]

Comrade, let me offer a counter to your arguement.

Grant played some of the early games at full forward and did ok. Little seems to have taken over that role so Grant has been tried in other forward positions. I don't think that is a bad thing. I think playing upfield will help build his tank up which is apparantly not very big. If Grant can play multiple forward line positions it will increase his value to the team by giving us more options. In fact I would even try him across the half back line next season.


Again I would offer this alternate view. I think Boumann has been handled sensationally well.

He has been made to earn his position in the Willi seniors. Nothing handed to him on a platter. He had to prove week in and week out in the ressies that he was worthy of the opportunity. He was promoted, did so so, then sent back. He was given a taste at senior level then went back worked hard again and got back into the senior side and has stayed there dislodging Wight in the process. I think that is how it should be. He now looks like he belongs. Well done to player, coach and development staff.

I reckon the Bulldogs senior side should make a couple of their senior players go through this but thats another debate.


Well done on making some very good counter-points.

I still think that Grant (as an outsider looking in) needs to be carefully managed to ensure he reaches his full potential and IMO Gotch has played him up field purely to accommodate more physically (and mentally) mature Williamstown players, placing success ahead of development (which he is entitled to do as a paid Williamstown head coach, but I’m also entitled to rant against it as a Western Bulldogs member).

Grant has yet to master the intricacies of playing out of the square (his natural position) and until he has I wouldn’t have been playing him in a position that he clearly could not manage physically, as all it has done is chip away at his self belief.

I guess the main positive is that he’ll now know he needs to have a huge pre-season to get himself fit enough to perform any role that Gotch throws at him.

With Boumann, you’re probably right, although he did have a very good pre-season and his practice match form leading into the season was also solid, so if he had have started in the seniors it wouldn’t have necessarily just been handed to him.

My biggest issue was when he was recently dropped back to the reserves to accommodate Cam Wight which was a shocking decision and one that I’m sure Rocket wasn’t happy about. Thankfully, it was rectified the following week.

[chef]

Grant is a full forward, plain and simple. This year was crucial in him further developing not only the ability to lead to the right spot, but when to time his leads, which Eade himself has said he needs to work on.


What happens if Cordy is a better option at full forward? Grant needs to be able to play more than one postion.

[comrade]

What happens if Cordy is a better option at full forward? Grant needs to be able to play more than one postion.

I’m not saying that Grant shouldn’t be able to play different positions (though Fevola seems to be doing just fine), but he should master the position that he is best suited to before being thrown into roles that he can’t physically handle.

Regarding Cordy, I’m not sure how much you’ve seen of him but he’s essentially a taller version of Bob Murphy and therefore will most likely play naturally higher up the field and will also be able to play out of the goal square without any issues.

[chef]

I’m not saying that Grant shouldn’t be able to play different positions (though Fevola seems to be doing just fine), but he should master the position that he is best suited to before being thrown into roles that he can’t physically handle.

Regarding Cordy, I’m not sure how much you’ve seen of him but he’s essentially a taller version of Bob Murphy and therefore will most likely play naturally higher up the field and will also be able to play out of the goal square without any issues.

Does Cordy have a frame like like a Tippett, White or Kosi? that will fill out. I haven't seen him play, with where i live and my job(working weekends) I rely on posters like you to keep me informed on all things Bulldog.

Hopefully Grant doesn't end up like Fev(moron and a selfish footballer), I see he had his strap on out again yesterday:o.

[GVGjr]

Again I would offer this alternate view. I think Boumann has been handled sensationally well.

He has been made to earn his position in the Willi seniors. Nothing handed to him on a platter. He had to prove week in and week out in the ressies that he was worthy of the opportunity. He was promoted, did so so, then sent back. He was given a taste at senior level then went back worked hard again and got back into the senior side and has stayed there dislodging Wight in the process. I think that is how it should be. He now looks like he belongs. Well done to player, coach and development staff.

I reckon the Bulldogs senior side should make a couple of their senior players go through this but thats another debate.

Totally agree. He got a lot of game time, played in a variety of positions (sometimes in the same game) and earned his way into the senior side and once there performed well.
I think it will serve him well in the future. Too many players can get handed senior games without working hard enough for it.
As you know Grants season is an exact contrast to Boumanns

[alwaysadog]

Totally agree. He got a lot of game time, played in a variety of positions (sometimes in the same game) and earned his way into the senior side and once there performed well.
I think it will serve him well in the future. Too many players can get handed senior games without working hard enough for it.
As you know Grants season is an exact contrast to Boumanns

Both had issues at the beginning of the season though Boumanns's were greater. He seems to have decided that hard work is the go and has found an adaptability that is critical to success today.

Whether Grant is more suited to FF I can't say but one thing is certain he has to be able play in more than one spot if he is to be a serious senior player and that is what I think this season at Willy has been all about, even if it has left Grant somewhat flat. He isn't going to walk into one of the KPP possies and so needs to find the application necessary to work his way through and into games.

The criticism of Willy's use of him seems to me to be wide of the mark and I'd like to hear from one of those who have the ear of the coach that he is unhappy before I see it as other than trying to teach Grant about soemthing referred to as the "hard yards".

[alwaysadog]

Well done on making some very good counter-points.

I still think that Grant (as an outsider looking in) needs to be carefully managed to ensure he reaches his full potential and IMO Gotch has played him up field purely to accommodate more physically (and mentally) mature Williamstown players, placing success ahead of development (which he is entitled to do as a paid Williamstown head coach, but I’m also entitled to rant against it as a Western Bulldogs member).

Grant has yet to master the intricacies of playing out of the square (his natural position) and until he has I wouldn’t have been playing him in a position that he clearly could not manage physically, as all it has done is chip away at his self belief.

I guess the main positive is that he’ll now know he needs to have a huge pre-season to get himself fit enough to perform any role that Gotch throws at him.

With Boumann, you’re probably right, although he did have a very good pre-season and his practice match form leading into the season was also solid, so if he had have started in the seniors it wouldn’t have necessarily just been handed to him.

My biggest issue was when he was recently dropped back to the reserves to accommodate Cam Wight which was a shocking decision and one that I’m sure Rocket wasn’t happy about. Thankfully, it was rectified the following week.

With respect comrade you make some big assumptions without producing evidence to support them and jump to some even bigger conclusions.

Whenever I think I know more than a respected coach or what's going on in that coach's head it's usually time for a rethink. I'm not saying he is all wise, but neither is he all stupid.

[Mantis]

With respect comrade you make some big assumptions without producing evidence to support them and jump to some even bigger conclusions.

Whenever I think I know more than a respected coach or what's going on in that coach's head it's usually time for a rethink. I'm not saying he is all wise, but neither is he all stupid.

I can assure you that most of what comrade has posted is factual.

[LostDoggy]

The only exposure of Grant I have seen was the 2 games he has played this year. (Nab and Home and Away)

There was a bit of deer in the headlights against Carlton and he really just needs to build up his endurance so he can run the game out. He has sticky hands but I think he is a few preseasons away from consistent footy. The taller kids take alot longer to fill out and Jarrod is seen as a long term solution rather than the quick fix. I hope he pinches a few games but he is going to take time. As will Ayce the frame is just not there and I would prefer that time is given to them so we don't throw lambs to the slaughter.

I will be the first o admit I don't watch Williamstown play so my opinion is somewhat ignorant but when he fills out, builds the endurance and get a bit more maturity (ie willing to work all day) he will be a real asset to the club.