The 'leaders'

[Mantis]

Having watched pretty much all of the games over the weekend (although the Bris v Carl game is an intoxicated blur) I marvelled at how the leaders of the winning teams rose to the occassion and helped guide their teams to victory.

Riewoldt, Brown, Scarlett, McLeod, etc all played cracking games and helped their teams achieve the result they required. But it wasn't just them each of these teams had players who would go beyond the call of duty to help them get the job done. Simon Black was hobbling around on one leg, but when Brisbane needed soemone to win a clearance you had to look no further than to see the Brisbane no.20 feeding the ball out.

Then I look at the performances of our leaders and I am left wondering what did they do help will us win a bloody important game?

Our leaders might be great around the club and set an awesome example for our young guys in how to approach life as a senior footballer, but for me that isn't enough. I want the leaders of my footy team to lead on the ground. I want them to kick the important goals, I want them to mix it up in the middle when things aren't going our way, I want them to set the example for the rest of the boys to follow.

I want our leaders to lead us to victory because that's what they are supposed to do, and frankly on Saturday I don't think they gave a yelp.

[Desipura]

Good post, thought the exact same thing on Sunday just did not put it to paper. Im sick of hearing Gia is great with the players off the field with his leadership. Johnno is a great mentor to the kids. Actions speak louder than words.

[bornadog]

The way Jonathan Brown inspired his team on Saturday night was fantastic and Roo showed by example how to take Collingwood apart.

Johnno has been really good this year but we need him to stand up this Friday night and lead the way. He has to kick the pressure goals, he has to work hard and show Hill, Higgins, Ward and other young players what is required at finals level.

As you say, Mantis, its the whole leadership group that has to lead on the field.

[bulldogtragic]

I think Aker is our closest thing to a leader at the moment. When it's crunch time he demands the ball and changes the game. Not enough like him and at best we have him for only 12 more months.

[LostDoggy]

Callan Ward is already more of a leader on the field than many of our official designated leaders. 'Leader' isn't a label, it is an action, and unless you inspire something to follow you (ie. the momentum of a team, for example), you are not a leader.

John Maxwell, in his book '21 irrefutable laws of leadership', has a law called "The Law of E.F.Hutton", based on a TV ad campaign (in the US) that ended with the motto: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Maxwell's Law #5 says you can quickly tell who the real leader/influencer in a group is, because when this person speaks, everyone at the table listens, nods, and begins to express assent. In a footballing sense, this player commands respect at a game, and it ebbs and flows around him and his presence. Nick Riewoldt is classic E.F.Hutton -- every game he plays, the game revolves around him. Wayne Carey was like that. Michael Voss was like that.

Who at the Dogs are genuine leaders in that sense, instead of a committee of agreed peers dreamt up by some waffly leadership program? Johnno and Aker are the closest things we have to that, followed not by Gia or Bobby, but Lakey, Ward and maybe Higgins. Griff has the potential -- though apparently not the tank -- to be the great white hope though.

[The Doctor]

Mantis, I fully agree with your sentiments.

Our leaders and senior players have failed to deliver on the biggest stage. They may well be an excellent leadership group off the field but on it they have yet to prove it when the pressure is at its' greatest.

I also ask what are our coaching staff and managers doing about it? My concern as I posted in another thread is the same senior players making the same mistakes in big matches yet they seem to get off lightly, ie not demoted. The Saints have shown this year that hard decisions on club favorites like Hudgeton and Ball does not mean the team will necessarily suffer. In fact if anything it has made them a tougher more ferocious unit.

I want to see senior under performers dealt with. Especially repeat offenders and I care not for their reputation, supposed skill, or their off field leadership capability. To hell with that. I want 22 players on the field who will give everything and do anything to win. We are so close and are letting it slip. I want some asses kicked.

[LostDoggy]

Here's another quote from John Maxwell that I think is relevant to this discussion:

"Everything rises and falls on leadership."

[Cyberdoggie]

There isn't too many players that have that real mental toughness and calmness under pressure. Callan Ward has shown in junior footy and in the AFL that he has this in spades. He can pick the ball up steady himself from outside 50 and on most occasions you can rely on him to put it through the middle.

Not too many others players in our side have this at all.

Johnno: we have all seen what happens to him when the siren goes.

Higgins: The prelim last year and in the last 2 games he has missed vital goals, albeit some were very difficult but he tends to miss them when we desperately need him to kick one.

Gia: Not very reliable from set shots but pretty good in play. That tells me he gets the yips under pressure

Minson: Came up with the goods in that game we stole from Richmond last year but he often shanks set shots for goal, yet his field kicking is excellent. He set Johnno up with a brilliant pass against the cats

Griffen: Not very reliable at all, mostly because of his bizarre kicking action where he kicks across his body

Cooney: Has missed big set shots on vital occasions, another one on the weekend

Murphy: Terrible at set shots for goal. Rarely puts them in unless he starts well.

Aker: Usually pretty good. Hasn't been as accurate as i'd like him to be from his snaps at goal, probably needs to settle more but from set shots under pressure i would rely on him

Overall i don't think there is much mental toughness and leadership qualities in our forwards, perhaps we should give the captaincy to a backman or a dour midfielder like Boyd?

[Mantis]

Overall i don't think there is much mental toughness and leadership qualities in our forwards, perhaps we should give the captaincy to a backman or a dour midfielder like Boyd?

He is one of the player's I have the biggest problem with. For such a supposed hard arse around the club he turns into a powder puff in the big games.

I want him to play like he really means it, I want his attitude to be 'If you (the oppsoition)want to win you have to get through me'.

At present I don't see it.

[Sedat]

I want him to play like he really means it, I want his attitude to be 'If you (the oppsoition) want to win you have to get through me'.
I definitely see that attitude in guys like Ward and Picken, but the reality is that if we are looking to 1st and 2nd year players for acts of inspiration on the field of battle we are not going to be troubling the engravers any time soon. We have more 100+ game players in our senior team than just about every other club, yet we appear to be a rudderless mess when the heat ramps up in September. The fact that we held our ground and then came back reasonably hard against the Cats is largely immaterial - we failed to match their intent when it counted. Unlike the despair of last year's QF when we were blown out of the water, the galling thing this time around is that we are currently every bit as good as Geelong are (arguably better). They have several underdone and sore players, and they have a couple of on-field liabilities (Blake and Hawkins) in key areas of the ground. But when it came to the crunch, we were found to be short of the mental mark once again.

I'd go a step further than just leadership on the field of battle - what is the brand of football we stand for? What are our immeasurables? What are the key indicators that the playing group and MC have identified as non-negotiables? Why is it that Rocket has had to remind a number of senior players virtually every week what not to do and they continue to ignore these reminders, yet the likes of Dal Santo and Milne were dumped without any hesitation by Lyon last season for failing to adhere to St Kilda's non-negotiables? Why do we continue to cut so much slack for players if they are continuing to make the same fundamental errors? It's madness - of course they are going to get comfortable in the senior team because they are safe as houses, which will make them prone to repeat errors without punishment, and so the cycle continues.

It's not about just creating some sexy slogan like 'Bloods footy' or 'Saints footy' but there is a commitment to a style and methodology that transcends everything that successful playing groups do together. Geelong religiously adhere to their 'brand'. Sydney definitely did in their hey day. St Kilda have embraced something similar this season. Hawthorn definitely did likewise in 2008. What is ours? Are we that satisfied as a club to have won 3 H&A matches in a row to finish off the season? St Kilda just won 20 in a row and they attacked Collingwood like rabid dogs for the majority of Sunday's game. Geelong have won 18+ games a season for 3 seasons in a row. We're hi-fiving in self-congratulation after 3 in a row - big f'ing deal.

[Ozza]

There isn't too many players that have that real mental toughness and calmness under pressure. Callan Ward has shown in junior footy and in the AFL that he has this in spades. He can pick the ball up steady himself from outside 50 and on most occasions you can rely on him to put it through the middle.

Not too many others players in our side have this at all.

Johnno: we have all seen what happens to him when the siren goes.

Higgins: The prelim last year and in the last 2 games he has missed vital goals, albeit some were very difficult but he tends to miss them when we desperately need him to kick one.

Gia: Not very reliable from set shots but pretty good in play. That tells me he gets the yips under pressure

Minson: Came up with the goods in that game we stole from Richmond last year but he often shanks set shots for goal, yet his field kicking is excellent. He set Johnno up with a brilliant pass against the cats
Griffen: Not very reliable at all, mostly because of his bizarre kicking action where he kicks across his body

Cooney: Has missed big set shots on vital occasions, another one on the weekend

Murphy: Terrible at set shots for goal. Rarely puts them in unless he starts well.

Aker: Usually pretty good. Hasn't been as accurate as i'd like him to be from his snaps at goal, probably needs to settle more but from set shots under pressure i would rely on him

Overall i don't think there is much mental toughness and leadership qualities in our forwards, perhaps we should give the captaincy to a backman or a dour midfielder like Boyd?

I agree with most of your post - however with repsect to Gia and Minson's kicking at goal - Minson has kicked 15.3 (83%) this year (+1 on the full) and nearly all of his shots would be set shots - so I'd say he is extremely reliable over the journey.
And Gia has kicked 88.37 since 2006 - at over 70% - so I'd say his number stack up also.

For mine - Higgins and certainly Bob Murphy are the two that frustrate me with their kicking at goal. For blokes with that much talent and skill - they should finish better. Griffen also hardly ever kicks the 50 metre running goals - always misses to the right hand side.

[Mantis]

I definitely see that attitude in guys like Ward and Picken, but the reality is that if we are looking to 1st and 2nd year players for acts of inspiration on the field of battle we are not going to be troubling the engravers any time soon. We have more 100+ game players in our senior team than just about every other club, yet we appear to be a rudderless mess when the heat ramps up in September. The fact that we held our ground and then came back reasonably hard against the Cats is largely immaterial - we failed to match their intent when it counted. Unlike the despair of last year's QF when we were blown out of the water, the galling thing this time around is that we are currently every bit as good as Geelong are (arguably better). They have several underdone and sore players, and they have a couple of on-field liabilities (Blake and Hawkins) in key areas of the ground. But when it came to the crunch, we were found to be short of the mental mark once again.

I see those qualities in Sam Reid as well, that kid is a warrior who I saw single handlely carry Williamstown over the line in a game earlier in the season. It's a damn shame his body has failed this year, but he MUST be a regular player next year.

Agree that Geelong were absolutely ripe for the picking (I have made mention of this in other threads so no use going over old ground)


I'd go a step further than just leadership on the field of battle - what is the brand of football we stand for? What are our immeasurables? What are the key indicators that the playing group and MC have identified as non-negotiables? Why is it that Rocket has had to remind a number of senior players virtually every week what not to do and they continue to ignore these reminders, yet the likes of Dal Santo and Milne were dumped without any hesitation by Lyon last season for failing to adhere to St Kilda's non-negotiables? Why do we continue to cut so much slack for players if they are continuing to make the same fundamental errors? It's madness - of course they are going to get comfortable in the senior team because they are safe as houses, which will make them prone to repeat errors without punishment, and so the cycle continues.

It's not about just creating some sexy slogan like 'Bloods footy' or 'Saints footy' but there is a commitment to a style and methodology that transcends everything that successful playing groups do together. Geelong religiously adhere to their 'brand'. Sydney definitely did in their hey day. St Kilda have embraced something similar this season. Hawthorn definitely did likewise in 2008. What is ours? Are we that satisfied as a club to have won 3 H&A matches in a row to finish off the season? St Kilda just won 20 in a row and they attacked Collingwood like rabid dogs for the majority of Sunday's game. Geelong have won 18+ games a season for 3 seasons in a row. We're hi-fiving in self-congratulation after 3 in a row - big f'ing deal.

Agree with most of that.

There has been many a discussion over the years on this sort of stuff, the old 'We accept mediocrity', blah blah blah. I am not sure what it is, but there is some underlying problem within the club that is holding us back from the ultimate success.

I hope some bugger can work out what it is very quickly and damn well fix it because it is driving me nuts watching us get so close only to stuff it up for some reason or another.

We are so bloody close that we can almost touch it, I just hope that something clicks within the group over the next couple of weeks which takes us to a place we haven't been for nearly 50 years, a GF, once we are there anything is possible.

[Desipura]

There has been many a discussion over the years on this sort of stuff, the old 'We accept mediocrity', blah blah blah. I am not sure what it is, but there is some underlying problem within the club that is holding us back from the ultimate success.

I believe it has got to do with us always having the underdog tag. Even with all those wins last season everyone continued to say we will not win a GF without a key tall. Perhaps the players do not genuinely believe they can do it without one either?
I heard an interview with Murphy a few weeks back and they asked him about Barry Hall and his reply was along the lines of "he would definately help our forward line having that big key forward up there". The way he responded was like he knew we had a deficiency there and that we are doing the best we can with what we have, which is similar to what Rocket has said in the past.

That combined with our lack of success over 55 years, this has most probably placed a heavy burden on the current crop of players to break the drought.

[The Doctor]

Maybe we have too many talk the talk leaders?

Our off field reputation is perhaps the best in the league at the moment. A credit to the club and players. No doubt our leadership group does an excellent job in leading our younger players to be decent people.

But do they know how to lead our team to premiership success? Judging by their efforts in the last 2 finals I would have to say no. Whilst they are all good public speakers and say all sorts of intelligent things that is useless on a footy field.

At a function a while back Rocket suggested to me that our senior players are a really good bunch of blokes (ie nice guys). I suggested we need more hard men in the side. We still do. We need some mongrel muts and those prepared to push the limits on field. Aker had a go with his handstand and had Gia standing there hands on hips with a "thats not what we stand for" look on his face. Aker is one of the few we have that walks the walk as well as talks the talk. I want Aker style on field leadership more than Gia style.

If Murphy is using no tall forward as an excuse then that is a cop out. This from a senior player will have follow on effects among others. What about saying "we don't need one, what we got is good enough"?

Watching Geelong I saw senior players like Enright providing direction by signalling to players where to go or I'm here you stay there etc. He did this all game long as did others. Didn't see much of this from our seniors. In fact I saw some of senior blokes pointing at each other as if to blame.

Our club is closer to a premiership than perhaps it realises. When will the penny drop among our nice guy leaders? Which one of them is going to make a sacrifical act rather than act for a free? Which one of them is going to go in for the hard ball rather than slip over in the contest? Which one of them is going to gut run to provide a lead to give a team mate an option out of trouble. In premiership sides all the senior players do this all the time and the young ones follow because that is what is expected and anything less is not good enough.

[Desipura]

If Murphy is using no tall forward as an excuse then that is a cop out. This from a senior player will have follow on effects among others. What about saying "we don't need one, what we got is good enough"?
Exactly my sentiments........a top post by the way Doctor, loved the insight. I agree we are very close to a premiership, thats what frustrates me that we may waste a golden opportunity.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Leadership, schmedership.

Here's an idea - the reason Riewoldt, Brown, Ablett and Scarlett have such an impact on finals is because they're bloody good.

We don't have any real stars. We have lots of good players, but we don't have any real superstars. Johnson and Aker were once but old father time is catching up with them. Lake is probably the closest thing we have and right on que he towelled up Hawkins and was clearly one of our better few players.

Rambling on about 'leadership' is really nothiong more than another way to say, 'we shouldn't accept mediocrity'; it's all just rhetoric.


Did Shane Ellen show leadership? Nope. He just played well at the right time and good players play well more often.


Every player has a role and every player needs to do the right thing more often than the bloke he's playing on. A shephard, a spoil, a chase, doesn't matter.

We need an even contribution from everyone and we will win.

Having a superstar or two is never going to hurt, but not because they win the game by doing something amazing, but because they help you win the game by going what's right more often.

Riewoldt isn't a star because he takes 1.8 contested marks a game, Riewoldt is a star because he works harder than any other forward and takes a dozen uncontested marks a game.

[The Doctor]

Every player has a role and every player needs to do the right thing more often than the bloke he's playing on. A shephard, a spoil, a chase, doesn't matter.

We need an even contribution from everyone and we will win.



It is not rhetoric at all.

What we're saying is that some of our senior players didn't give an even contribution, we lost when we had a real chance of winning and we're angry about it. It is obvious that we as supporters feel let down by some of the efforts we saw out there on Saturday. Some of these players are respected for their leadership but now their leadership is justifiably being questioned.

In a team lacking superstars it is essential all players do as you have suggested above for what you are saying is essential for team success. This is where you need your team leaders to set the example.

Good leadership is essential to premiership success as much as it is in business or in any other pursuit involving human endeavour.

[aker39]

Having a superstar or two is never going to hurt, but not because they win the game by doing something amazing, but because they help you win the game by going what's right more often.

Riewoldt isn't a star because he takes 1.8 contested marks a game, Riewoldt is a star because he works harder than any other forward and takes a dozen uncontested marks a game.

Do you not think that having a leader like Riewoldt inspires some of his team mates to work that little bit harder.

[neodog]

Johno endeavour was terrific on the weekend. Was always competitive and tried his guts out, certainly got Mackie worried.

Johno is not of a physical stature as the Brown/reiwolt/carey mold but attitude wise he is the same IMO. That is all you can ask from a player, not giving half arsed chase or half arsed tacked. Johno really hold the ball up well and never ever did he give up.

[Mantis]

Leadership, schmedership.

Here's an idea - the reason Riewoldt, Brown, Ablett and Scarlett have such an impact on finals is because they're bloody good.

We don't have any real stars. We have lots of good players, but we don't have any real superstars. Johnson and Aker were once but old father time is catching up with them. Lake is probably the closest thing we have and right on que he towelled up Hawkins and was clearly one of our better few players.

But we have many very good players, many of whom played like poo on the weekend. Perhaps I/ we rate our own players too highly, but I would have hoped that many of our more experienced players would play someone near their best on the weekend, for me they didn't.




Every player has a role and every player needs to do the right thing more often than the bloke he's playing on. A shephard, a spoil, a chase, doesn't matter.

We need an even contribution from everyone and we will win.

Having a superstar or two is never going to hurt, but not because they win the game by doing something amazing, but because they help you win the game by going what's right more often.

Riewoldt isn't a star because he takes 1.8 contested marks a game, Riewoldt is a star because he works harder than any other forward and takes a dozen uncontested marks a game.

And who are the players who should be setting the example? Personally I believe our 'leaders' should be, but they didn't and have yet to in these types of games. Did our 'leaders' not realise after last years QF flogging at the hands of Hawthorn what is expected of each and every player in games at this time of the year? If they did they didn't play that way or even set the example to play that way.

Forgive me for expecting more than you from players who should perform better when we need them too.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Very good thread, the best I've seen for a long time. Some great well thought out posts so far.

We all seem to be on the same page regarding our lack of leadership. How do you change it, though? That's the question that has to be asked. We all know that Johnson, Gia, Murphy etc. are very good mentors to the young players. They set a good example on the training track and off the field - no doubt about it. But quite honestly - do you think there's anybody on our list that has admirers for the way he plays? IE. Campbell Brown, Luke Hodge, Max Rooke, Nick Maxwell? Genuine hard nuts that have an appetite for the contest, both mentally and physically. These players thrive off pressure and pain - and in finals - this type of attitude can turn momentum and win premierships. Reality is, we haven't got that type of player. Cross and Boyd often are courageous but have you ever seen them remonstrate after one of our players are put down? Say what you will about Brown's antics but coming from somebody who loves and plays football myself, these type of characters you admire and trust beyond comprehension. You know they're warriors that will show absolutely no mercy, rightly or wrongly, in the heat of the battle. Unfortunately - we haven't got anything slightly resembling to this.

Cue; how do you fix it? You can't turn players into something they aren't. That rules out the group of Johnson, Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Gia and Hahn as captains beyond 2009. The next group of players coming through, we've got a couple. Ward and Reid have that desperation and fight to really lead a side in a moment where it's needed. They'll never be the club's best players, but they'll probably be our toughest, most unforgiving. Throw them into the leadership group as of 2010. Take out the likes of Murphy and Giansiracusa - allow them to concentrate on football and take a backseat because they've had their opportunity to make their impressions on the club. They've been very disappointing in this area. Murph's laconic style isn't what we need and Gia seems too precious (IE. The Aker thing). A leadership group consisting of Higgins, Ward, Reid, Boyd and Lake would be my suggestion for a start. Whether or not we need to invest in some tougher players from other clubs (unlikely to find quality) or develop our own (Tiller?) that's for later discussion.

In any case, there needs to be a radical shift in the direction of this club. I don't want to see Johnson on magazines and representing the club anymore. He's been a great servant and is one of our favourite sons but if he's going to play in 2010, he needs to concentrate solely on football and hand over the mantle to the younger generation. Our core group of senior players have had more than enoguh chances to lead from the front and unfortunately they haven't delivered. This isn't going to be an overnight fix; it's going to take time to develop, draft or trade in the types of leaders that are going to be unforgiving in their approach on the field. However - shifting the leadership responsibilities to a new group of players is a big change from whatw e have currently. The mindset automatically changes, the culture transforms from one of 'yesteryear' into the 'future'. The likes of Johnson, Murphy and Gia will still be around to lead in their own right but as far as leading this club into a Premiership, I want to see us turn our focus into the new batch.

Obviously there are a lot of bases that need to be covered and talked about other than what I've already wrote above, but you get the general jist of my idea. The perception of being a 'silky, skillful one way running side' needs to be changed. Adding in some seriously tough footballers (Ward, Reid) gives a bit of a new dimension to the club. This may be a case of mentally refreshing this group so that they don't fall down in Finals again.

It's going to take time either way, but if St. Kilda can do it in a pre-season, then we should be able to.

[LostDoggy]

I detest Grant Thomas, but listening to him last night talking about the mental softness of the bulldogs, I could only agree with him. I really expected us to come out like Hawthorn in that game, and tear Geelong a new one. I am really disappointed that it is the same old same old. We will come out fighting against Brisbane, and then put in a moderate effort against the Saints and that will be another year gone.:(

[Topdog]

I thought when Hudson chased down Stokes and won the ball off him (after Gilbee and 1 other Bulldog player both waited for the ball whilst Stokes just ran in and took it) that it would change the game. I think we kicked the next 4 goals.

Leadership can be as simple as doing the 1%'s all the time.

People seem to be confusing leadership and composure a little in this thread but I believe our leaders worked hard on the weekend.

[dog town]

I can certainly see where everyone is coming from here but I would caution against making any radical decisions. Some of the opposition players mentioned are not really what I would consider tough or overly inspiring players either but each to their own.

Rocket and co obviously dont see it as a huge problem given that the guy who is IMO our bravest player has played 2's all season.

[LostDoggy]

I thought when Hudson chased down Stokes and won the ball off him (after Gilbee and 1 other Bulldog player both waited for the ball whilst Stokes just ran in and took it) that it would change the game. I think we kicked the next 4 goals.

Leadership can be as simple as doing the 1%'s all the time.


I agree but its was few and far between.

[The Doctor]

Very good thread, the best I've seen for a long time. Some great well thought out posts so far.

We all seem to be on the same page regarding our lack of leadership. How do you change it, though? That's the question that has to be asked. We all know that Johnson, Gia, Murphy etc. are very good mentors to the young players. They set a good example on the training track and off the field - no doubt about it. But quite honestly - do you think there's anybody on our list that has admirers for the way he plays? IE. Campbell Brown, Luke Hodge, Max Rooke, Nick Maxwell? Genuine hard nuts that have an appetite for the contest, both mentally and physically. These players thrive off pressure and pain - and in finals - this type of attitude can turn momentum and win premierships. Reality is, we haven't got that type of player. Cross and Boyd often are courageous but have you ever seen them remonstrate after one of our players are put down? Say what you will about Brown's antics but coming from somebody who loves and plays football myself, these type of characters you admire and trust beyond comprehension. You know they're warriors that will show absolutely no mercy, rightly or wrongly, in the heat of the battle. Unfortunately - we haven't got anything slightly resembling to this.

Cue; how do you fix it? You can't turn players into something they aren't. That rules out the group of Johnson, Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Gia and Hahn as captains beyond 2009. The next group of players coming through, we've got a couple. Ward and Reid have that desperation and fight to really lead a side in a moment where it's needed. They'll never be the club's best players, but they'll probably be our toughest, most unforgiving. Throw them into the leadership group as of 2010. Take out the likes of Murphy and Giansiracusa - allow them to concentrate on football and take a backseat because they've had their opportunity to make their impressions on the club. They've been very disappointing in this area. Murph's laconic style isn't what we need and Gia seems too precious (IE. The Aker thing). A leadership group consisting of Higgins, Ward, Reid, Boyd and Lake would be my suggestion for a start. Whether or not we need to invest in some tougher players from other clubs (unlikely to find quality) or develop our own (Tiller?) that's for later discussion.

In any case, there needs to be a radical shift in the direction of this club. I don't want to see Johnson on magazines and representing the club anymore. He's been a great servant and is one of our favourite sons but if he's going to play in 2010, he needs to concentrate solely on football and hand over the mantle to the younger generation. Our core group of senior players have had more than enoguh chances to lead from the front and unfortunately they haven't delivered. This isn't going to be an overnight fix; it's going to take time to develop, draft or trade in the types of leaders that are going to be unforgiving in their approach on the field. However - shifting the leadership responsibilities to a new group of players is a big change from whatw e have currently. The mindset automatically changes, the culture transforms from one of 'yesteryear' into the 'future'. The likes of Johnson, Murphy and Gia will still be around to lead in their own right but as far as leading this club into a Premiership, I want to see us turn our focus into the new batch.

Obviously there are a lot of bases that need to be covered and talked about other than what I've already wrote above, but you get the general jist of my idea. The perception of being a 'silky, skillful one way running side' needs to be changed. Adding in some seriously tough footballers (Ward, Reid) gives a bit of a new dimension to the club. This may be a case of mentally refreshing this group so that they don't fall down in Finals again.

It's going to take time either way, but if St. Kilda can do it in a pre-season, then we should be able to.

One of the finest posts I've read for a while.

However, I think we should put this thinking on hold at least for another week. For some reason, and for all that I've said in this thread, I still cling to the hope that a proud fighting Bulldogs outfit will come out and deliver what we've been praying for. Blind faith maybe but faith nonetheless. I still think we can do it. Do the players?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

One of the finest posts I've read for a while.

However, I think we should put this thinking on hold at least for another week. For some reason, and for all that I've said in this thread, I still cling to the hope that a proud fighting Bulldogs outfit will come out and deliver what we've been praying for. Blind faith maybe but faith nonetheless. I still think we can do it. Do the players?

Yep, we still need to believe otherwise we're a lost cause. I think they've got two weeks to prove something. If we win against Brisbane, I would hope we take it right up to St. Kilda and play very good football even if we don't win. If we serve up the same type of football we have in recent finals series, then I think a change should be made.

Let's hope the players really turn it around though. You would expect a number of players to put a lot more effort in than they did v Geelong.

[Mantis]

Let's hope the players really turn it around though. You would expect a number of players to put a lot more effort in than they did v Geelong.

Which in some ways will make it worse.

[Sockeye Salmon]

But we have many very good players, many of whom played like poo on the weekend. Perhaps I/ we rate our own players too highly, but I would have hoped that many of our more experienced players would play someone near their best on the weekend, for me they didn't.


That's got nothing to do with leadership, that just means we had too many players who played like poo. It doesn't matter if they're experienced or first-gamers, if they're AFL players they are expected to do the right things. We had too many who didn't.

Could anything have been more 'inspiring' than Hudson's chase down of Stokes? Doesn't that count as an experienced player showing 'leadership'? Didn't help other than that we got a goal from it.




And who are the players who should be setting the example? Personally I believe our 'leaders' should be, but they didn't and have yet to in these types of games. Did our 'leaders' not realise after last years QF flogging at the hands of Hawthorn what is expected of each and every player in games at this time of the year? If they did they didn't play that way or even set the example to play that way.


Leadership is about doing the right things on the track. It's about showing younger players what's required to be a successful AFL player. It's about teaching them how hard you have to work and how disciplined you have to be to succeed.

Once they are on the ground everyone is trying their utmost. They are aware of what's required, unfortunately so were Geelong. Geelong did what was required better and more often than we did. Ablett, Scarlett and the rest didn't show leadership, they just played very well, they are, after all, very good footballers.




Forgive me for expecting more than you from players who should perform better when we need them too.

Perhaps I'm just excepting mediocrity.

You haven't considered that Geelong thought the game was important too? You are simply wishing for our players to miraculously become better just because the game was important. It doesn't work like that. They are what they are. They're all trying, they're all desperate to win, they all want to hit their targets and run that little bit further and faster.

Unfortunately, so were Geelong, and on Saturday, they were that little bit better than us.

That's sport.

The other good thing about sport is we might be lucky enough to have another crack at them, and things might go right and we might just get them.

But that won't be because of 'leadership', that will be because everyone did the right things more often that they did.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Do you not think that having a leader like Riewoldt inspires some of his team mates to work that little bit harder.

No, I don't.

You are implying that they aren't already doing their best.

The desire to win a premiership and the desire to have successful careers doing something they have dreamt about since they were 8 years old will ensure they will do their best and work as hard as they can.

Was he not showing any leadership in last years prelim when Hawthorn gave them a touch-up? What's changed this year then?

Having Riewoldt in their team just means they are lucky enough to play in a team with a bloody good CHF.


Bobby Skilton was one of the most courageous and brilliant players ever and he managed 1 final in 259 games. If the other players aren't good enough it doesn't matter what Skilton did, not matter how 'inspiring' he was.

[Mantis]

Perhaps I'm just excepting mediocrity.

You haven't considered that Geelong thought the game was important too? You are simply wishing for our players to miraculously become better just because the game was important. It doesn't work like that. They are what they are. They're all trying, they're all desperate to win, they all want to hit their targets and run that little bit further and faster.

Unfortunately, so were Geelong, and on Saturday, they were that little bit better than us.

That's sport.

The other good thing about sport is we might be lucky enough to have another crack at them, and things might go right and we might just get them.

But that won't be because of 'leadership', that will be because everyone did the right things more often that they did.

That old chest-nut. :rolleyes:

We seen through-out the year that our players can perform much better than that. Why is it then that the same players play poorly in these types of games? Why do our best clearance winners stand around waiting for someone else to win the ball? Why do our skilful players continually cough the ball up?

It's all ok to say that Geelong are a fine team, they are, but we also are a very good team. I just wished we would start showing it when it counted and yes they showed it throughout the season and as late as rd 20 to 22, but we didn't play with the same intensity and desire on Saturday as we did as little as 1 or 2 weeks ago. And yes I know the players would be bitterly disappointed with their perfromance, but I would have hoped after a poor finals showing last year they would have known what was required from them to ensure that it wouldn't happen again. Shit we only have to look back to rd19 to see what happens when you run out onto the ground just expecting to play well.

Look I haven't given up on them yet, I don't do that, but it just seems to we that throughout our recent history every time we find ourseleves in a strong position we find a way to stuff things up and I think we all are getting a little sick of it.

[aker39]

No, I don't.

You are implying that they aren't already doing their best.



You've played enough sport to know that sometimes you think you may be giving 100% and something happens to make you find that little bit more.

[knowitall]

Great thread. When the season is all done and dusted, let's talk about the 'leaders', and which ones stood up in the finals, and which ones didn't. Fair enough, there were not many contributors in the weekends match, but let's wait until we are playing in the do-or-die matches to asses players of such high quality. Just remember, we still have three more finals to play, so these 'leaders' could still prove their worth in the crunch matches versus Brisbane, St. Kilda, and most likely Geelong. IMO, 2009 could still be a very successful year for us, and let's just hold off the criticism on our leadership group until the year has finished.

[Jasper]

Roll into that discussion the phenomenon of clubs that "get up" for milestone games for their great servants.
Players are human, not robots. They can give extra when properly motivated.
The secret is sustaining that motivation for an extended period, which is what Geelong has done for 3 years and the Saints have discovered in 2008.
At the moment, our boys only seem to find that intensity when they are the underdogs. Hopefully that is how the next two weeks (at least) pans out.

[bornadog]

Great thread. When the season is all done and dusted, let's talk about the 'leaders', and which ones stood up in the finals, and which ones didn't. Fair enough, there were not many contributors in the weekends match, but let's wait until we are playing in the do-or-die matches to asses players of such high quality. Just remember, we still have three more finals to play, so these 'leaders' could still prove their worth in the crunch matches versus Brisbane, St. Kilda, and most likely Geelong. IMO, 2009 could still be a very successful year for us, and let's just hold off the criticism on our leadership group until the year has finished.

Completely agree, sometimes no matter how much leadership you show, the opposition can be that little better.

We need contribution from 22 on the field and the senior players must lead the way.

[PaddyWhack]

Rocket has made the point previously that, because we lack the "superstars", the entire 22 players have to put in for the team to be successful - we can't carry any passengers and expect to win against the top sides. There is also nowhere for those passengers to hide, as evidenced by this thread and others. From last week, Riewoldt and Milne are good examples - one dominated, the other was pretty much unsighted (again) yet the team still had a comfortable victory. However, that doesn't mean that nobody at the Dogs has to "stand up" - and hopefully somebody will over the next three weeks...

[Jasper]

I think some people are confusing mental toughness and leadership. I would consider a lot of our problems stem from a lack of mental toughness, as opposed to the more esoteric concept of leadership. However, I agree that if our club's leaders displayed more mental toughness and led by example, then this quality would permeate throughout our club more. No greater example of mental toughness is Hawthorn, go back to Brereton's refusal to be beaten when he got up post Yeates, fast forward to Hodge playing the GF with damaged ribs, look at Steward Dew icing crucial goals in last years GF. Mental toughness is a refusal to be beaten, its courage, its not taking a short step (looking at you Josh Hill), its icing key goals (yeah looking at Murph, Cooney, Johnno, Minson, Hahn, Eagleton, etc). Mental toughness is a key commodity in finals...we don't have it.

[alwaysadog]

Leadership, schmedership.

Here's an idea - the reason Riewoldt, Brown, Ablett and Scarlett have such an impact on finals is because they're bloody good.

We don't have any real stars. We have lots of good players, but we don't have any real superstars. Johnson and Aker were once but old father time is catching up with them. Lake is probably the closest thing we have and right on que he towelled up Hawkins and was clearly one of our better few players.

Rambling on about 'leadership' is really nothiong more than another way to say, 'we shouldn't accept mediocrity'; it's all just rhetoric.


Did Shane Ellen show leadership? Nope. He just played well at the right time and good players play well more often.


Every player has a role and every player needs to do the right thing more often than the bloke he's playing on. A shephard, a spoil, a chase, doesn't matter.

We need an even contribution from everyone and we will win.

Having a superstar or two is never going to hurt, but not because they win the game by doing something amazing, but because they help you win the game by going what's right more often.

Riewoldt isn't a star because he takes 1.8 contested marks a game, Riewoldt is a star because he works harder than any other forward and takes a dozen uncontested marks a game.


SS, you and I have disagreed about a few things but you have got this matter absolutely correct. The players you mention aren't just bloody good they are also consistently good, which is probably part of your definition anyway.

Leadership, sneadership I don't want a designated few to stand up and be counted I want a whole team. If we have got to the finals and players still don't know the game plan and what to do to contribute we have much bigger problems than leadership to worry about.

[alwaysadog]

I think some people are confusing mental toughness and leadership. I would consider a lot of our problems stem from a lack of mental toughness, as opposed to the more esoteric concept of leadership. However, I agree that if our club's leaders displayed more mental toughness and led by example, then this quality would permeate throughout our club more. No greater example of mental toughness is Hawthorn, go back to Brereton's refusal to be beaten when he got up post Yeates, fast forward to Hodge playing the GF with damaged ribs, look at Steward Dew icing crucial goals in last years GF. Mental toughness is a refusal to be beaten, its courage, its not taking a short step (looking at you Josh Hill), its icing key goals (yeah looking at Murph, Cooney, Johnno, Minson, Hahn, Eagleton, etc). Mental toughness is a key commodity in finals...we don't have it.

Is it toughness or composure?

[boydogs]

Is it toughness or composure?

I would say being mentally tough brings composure. If you are confident, focussed and determined, then you don't allow yourself to panic, stress out, lose concentration, become confused etc.

[alwaysadog]

I would say being mentally tough brings composure. If you are confident, focussed and determined, then you don't allow yourself to panic, stress out, lose concentration, become confused etc.

Perhaps there's more to it. Do you think we weren't confident, focussed and determined going into last week's game?

[Mantis]

Perhaps there's more to it. Do you think we weren't confident, focussed and determined going into last week's game?

Of course we where, it's just that we left all the attributes that make us a better team (intensity and desire) in the sheds for the first 45 minutes.

The 'leaders' need to set the tone from the start and ensure all the players are 'up and about', last week were as flat as a tack so hopefully we see a big change tomorrow night.

[alwaysadog]

Of course we where, it's just that we left all the attributes that make us a better team (intensity and desire) in the sheds for the first 45 minutes.

The 'leaders' need to set the tone from the start and ensure all the players are 'up and about', last week were as flat as a tack so hopefully we see a big change tomorrow night.

I'm glad you're sure Mantis, because a logical conclusion from what gogriff wrote was that we couldn't have been.

What I was trying to do was to get this thread off the path of the well worn cliche and even the even more overused counter generalisation and on to a little more complex analysis. Perhaps the aim was too optimistic.

[Jasper]

Perhaps there's more to it. Do you think we weren't confident, focussed and determined going into last week's game?

The aspects of mental toughness that I think we lack are:

Composure under pressure, the ability to deliver results (ie goals) under pressure
Reslience, the ability to stand up in adversity

[The Doctor]

bump

after yet another epic failure by our repeat offending team leaders & senior players namely johnson, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Eagleton I thought this might worth bringing back up from last year. there was a similar one the year before as i recall.

I can't stand how our match committee keeps relying on the same players who have consistently proven they are not up to it in the pressure cooker of finals football.

[BulldogBelle]

serial offenders. Never held to account, picked time and time again.

[GVGjr]

bump

after yet another epic failure by our repeat offending team leaders & senior players namely johnson, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Eagleton I thought this might worth bringing back up from last year. there was a similar one the year before as i recall.

I can't stand how our match committee keeps relying on the same players who have consistently proven they are not up to it in the pressure cooker of finals football.

Whilst I can't disagree, what options do we have to address this for next season?
Morris is the standout guy from my perspective but Giansiracusa is obviously the captain in waiting.

[Sedat]

bump

after yet another epic failure by our repeat offending team leaders & senior players namely johnson, Giansiracusa, Hahn, Eagleton I thought this might worth bringing back up from last year. there was a similar one the year before as i recall.Agree with your list but it is missing Boyd. He played on the BOG tonight. We cannot continue with Boyd showing such scant regard to his direct opponent.

[The Doctor]

Whilst I can't disagree, what options do we have to address this for next season?
Morris is the standout guy from my perspective but Giansiracusa is obviously the captain in waiting.

why does Rocket and the MC always fall back to the veterans?

A few weeks ago when we were going well there was no Eagleton, no Hahn and not much Johnson. We looked quicker and better skilled. I knew they would call these old blokes up the moment Cooney and Morris went down.

Why not have some balls and give Everitt and Moles a go? At least try and mix it up rather than going with serial big game offenders all the time FFS.

[The Doctor]

Agree with your list but it is missing Boyd. He played on the BOG tonight. We cannot continue with Boyd showing such scant regard to his direct opponent.

Agree Sedat, I was targetting the repeat offenders. Boyd and Cross were exposed badly.

[Doc26]

Whilst I can't disagree, what options do we have to address this for next season?
Morris is the standout guy from my perspective but Giansiracusa is obviously the captain in waiting.

The thought of this is just too scary to contemplate and is just the type of thing this football department could well endorse.

I agree that on the face of it Dale would appear a sound option although not being part of the inner sanctum I'm not in a good position to know Dale's ability to get this list to play accountable football and go out with a never say die attitude as he does.

[GVGjr]

why does Rocket and the MC always fall back to the veterans?



It's gone from perplexing to embarrassing. I'll still go back to the list management at the end of last year that kept at least two guys on the list that they shouldn't have.
The standard was set then and Rocket has stuck to it.



A few weeks ago when we were going well there was no Eagleton, no Hahn and not much Johnson. We looked quicker and better skilled. I knew they would call these old blokes up the moment Cooney and Morris went down.

Why not have some balls and give Everitt and Moles a go? At least try and mix it up rather than going with serial big game offenders all the time FFS.

It's a real shame that they regard Everitt as basically a spare parts player.

[comrade]

The thought of this is just too scary to contemplate and is just the type of thing this football department could well endorse.

I agree that on the face of it Dale would appear a sound option although not being part of the inner sanctum I'm not in a good position to know Dale's ability to get this list to play accountable football and go out with a never say die attitude as he does.

As far as I'm aware, apparently Dale is very vocal in the defensive line meetings and comes across as the General back there. You would think he has everyone's utmost respect, also.

We need a 'do-as-I-do' captain and Dale fits the bill. This might sounds harsh, but I reckon the club would be looked upon as a joke if we chose Gia to lead us.

[anfo27]

Agree with your list but it is missing Boyd. He played on the BOG tonight. We cannot continue with Boyd showing such scant regard to his direct opponent.

He makes me sick this bloke. Never accountable and always named in the best bescause he gets high stats. I would shop him round and see what we can get. We have Ward, Reid and Libba coming through to play this role and Boyd is not going to take us to that next step.

I would trade Gia for a washing machine atm.

[GVGjr]

As far as I'm aware, apparently Dale is very vocal in the defensive line meetings and comes across as the General back there. You would think he has everyone's utmost respect, also.

We need a 'do-as-I-do' captain and Dale fits the bill. This might sounds harsh, but I reckon the club would be looked upon as a joke if we chose Gia to lead us.

Morris is a very good speaker as well. I can't fault him and believe he would grow into the job.

Regarding Giansiracusa, the coach seems sold on him so what would be the chance of a change in direction?

[Dry Rot]

Morris is a very good speaker as well. I can't fault him and believe he would grow into the job.

Regarding Giansiracusa, the coach seems sold on him so what would be the chance of a change in direction?

Maybe (for all sorts of reasons) we need a change of coach?

[LostDoggy]

I can't stand how our match committee keeps relying on the same players who have consistently proven they are not up to it in the pressure cooker of finals football.

This is it.

[Greystache]

Morris is a very good speaker as well. I can't fault him and believe he would grow into the job.

Regarding Giansiracusa, the coach seems sold on him so what would be the chance of a change in direction?

I can see a lot of Tom Harley in Morris, with the advantage that Morris is a better player.

[MrMahatma]

Obviously we only see what they do on the field for the most part. It seems because Boyd/Cross/Gia are hard trainers then they're leaders. Sure, that's part of it, but you have to be able to actually play when it counts. Walk the walk. Boyd never covers his man, and is a turnover king. Gia dead set can't keep his feet in a single contest. I don't care if they train all day ever day at 200%, on game day they aren't a leader's a$$hole.

[azabob]

Is Fantasia also part of the list making decisions?

[MrMahatma]

Maybe (for all sorts of reasons) we need a change of coach?
It's harsh - but I think it's time to review it. He made the call on the list at the end of last year. He made the call on who to play in the finals (and who NOT to play...). He has to live with that.

Thing is, we'll make another prelim and the club will say 'well, without Morris or Cooney we were always going to struggle' and then sprout the same rubbish all summer about making amends in 2011... rinse and repeat.

[comrade]

Injuries haven't helped but we've been below par in a year where we should have been primed.

[Mantis]

Thing is, we'll make another prelim and the club will say 'well, without Morris or Cooney we were always going to struggle' and then sprout the same rubbish all summer about making amends in 2011... rinse and repeat.

I wouldn't be counting my chickens.

[anfo27]

Maybe (for all sorts of reasons) we need a change of coach?

Can the club afford to pay Rocket out?

[anfo27]

Injuries haven't helped but we've been below par in a year where we should have been primed.

Smorgan said nothing less han a grand final would be accepted. This year has been unacceptable and something needs to change. Smorgan needs to live up to what he preeches.

[LostDoggy]

Smorgan said nothing less han a grand final would be accepted. This year has been unacceptable and something needs to change. Smorgan needs to live up to what he preeches.

This is what i questioned a few weeks ago, will Smorgon live up to what he puts out to the members?

[Rocco Jones]

I have a very different view on leadership to that of Eade and co. We don't have any all round leaders and it seems like the club has gone with the 'do as I say' group rather than the 'do as I do' group which I prefer.

Gia is a great leader when in a board room and if this were the Apprentice, I would have him as a clear winner. As comrade mentioned, if he becomes our leader we will be seen as a bit of a joke.

Boyd seems like the favourite but I don't see him as real leader. Despite his limitations, he often puts getting his own footy ahead of the needs of the team. He also not the type that can be influential in big games.

[GVGjr]

This is what i questioned a few weeks ago, will Smorgon live up to what he puts out to the members?

Very doubtful. The will be something put in place to meet that commitment but I'd question if it will be to the spirit of what he originally said.

[Doc26]

He makes me sick this bloke. Never accountable and always named in the best bescause he gets high stats. I would shop him round and see what we can get. We have Ward, Reid and Libba coming through to play this role and Boyd is not going to take us to that next step.

I would trade Gia for a washing machine atm.

That Toovey bump on Gia tonight is still doing my head in for a supposed senior leader of our Club.

Gia (although he's not alone) we need some of this.

http://a.imageshack.us/img339/3637/angryslapshot.jpg

And less of this.

http://a.imageshack.us/img339/7725/nedbraden.jpg

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We literally have the worst leaders in the AFL. Nobody folds like a pack of cards quite like our batch. It's almost amazing that they can do it so consistently. What's more is that the MC are oblivious to reality.

Boyd was BOG for Collingwood. I watched him closely and he was absolutely pathetic. Swan murdered him around the stoppages, in space and when Boyd did get the ball his disposal and decision making was deplorable even by his standards.

Cross is too slow. Leigh Brown run him down FFS! He was five or so meters behind to start with!

Murphy stood up which I was glad to see, but Boyd, Cross, Gia, Hargrave, Hahn, Gilbee and Eagleton are woeful.

[anfo27]

That Toovey bump on Gia tonight is still doing my head in for a supposed senior leader of our Club.

Gia (although he's not alone) we need some of this.

http://a.imageshack.us/img339/3637/angryslapshot.jpg

And less of this.

http://a.imageshack.us/img339/7725/nedbraden.jpg

lol

Thats gold Doc, its the first time I've laughed all night. Thanks mate I needed that.

[Doc26]

We literally have the worst leaders in the AFL. Nobody folds like a pack of cards quite like our batch. It's almost amazing that they can do it so consistently. What's more is that the MC are oblivious to reality.

Boyd was BOG for Collingwood. I watched him closely and he was absolutely pathetic. Swan murdered him around the stoppages, in space and when Boyd did get the ball his disposal and decision making was deplorable even by his standards.

Cross is too slow. Leigh Brown run him down FFS! He was five or so meters behind to start with!

Murphy stood up which I was glad to see, but Boyd, Cross, Gia, Hargrave, Hahn, Gilbee and Eagleton are woeful.

I agree with your inclusion of Hargrave and Gilbee to this list whose performances haven't drawn as much as attention as the usual suspects. Their performance throughout much of the season has been well below what is required of them.

[anfo27]

I agree with your inclusion of Hargrave and Gilbee to this list whose performances haven't drawn as much as attention as the usual suspects. Their performance throughout much of the season has been well below what is required of them.

Gilbee's decline this season has been alarming.

[Dry Rot]

I wouldn't be counting my chickens.

Yep, look at our efforts tonight.

The Swans are in great form and actually do the right things unlike us: play for the team, their coach, each other and the jumper.

[lemmon]

What about Lake as a legitimate chance for captain? Has become tremendously team orientated, wont take crap on or off the field and has the playing and media profile. He has stood up when required and is motivated by achieving the ultimate goal.

I was in support of Boyd taking over but the recent attention seems to have gone straight to his ego, looks for glory on field over the team which is alarming to say the least.

[Hotdog60]

What about Lake as a legitimate chance for captain? Has become tremendously team orientated, wont take crap on or off the field and has the playing and media profile. He has stood up when required and is motivated by achieving the ultimate goal.

I was in support of Boyd taking over but the recent attention seems to have gone straight to his ego, looks for glory on field over the team which is alarming to say the least.

I don't mind this bit, sometimes it's good to have the flamboyant player but Boyd doesn't finish off all his hard work. If he won the hard ball, always gave off to team mates in the best position, keep his opponent to low numbers and kick 2 or 3 goals he could have an ego as big as the Whitten oval.

[Topdog]

Gee I must be on my lonesome in thinking Gia was pretty good last night.

Hargrave is just a serial panicker with the ball in his hands in finals.

[LostDoggy]

Gee I must be on my lonesome in thinking Gia was pretty good last night.

Hargrave is just a serial panicker with the ball in his hands in finals.

I think you are

[BornInDroopSt'54]

What about Lake as a legitimate chance for captain? Has become tremendously team orientated, wont take crap on or off the field and has the playing and media profile. He has stood up when required and is motivated by achieving the ultimate goal.

I was in support of Boyd taking over but the recent attention seems to have gone straight to his ego, looks for glory on field over the team which is alarming to say the least.

I agree, even if he has a touch of the Tony Abbots with his brain fades. He has huge devotion to the cause, and the captaincy would harness that.
It's a pity ben Hudson's not a few years younger, he'd make a good captain with his work ethic and being in the centre. He is a consummate media performer as well.
I don't think Boyd is ego driven, having met him on the golf course and helped him look for his ball twoor so years ago. Quite the opposite, he was very modest and apologetic of his and the teams performance.

[Doc26]

Gee I must be on my lonesome in thinking Gia was pretty good last night.
Hargrave is just a serial panicker with the ball in his hands in finals.

On the topic of the OP I just cannot see how Gia presented himself when it counted. If leadership is partly about 'by example' I feel he too often fails the 'die for the jumper' test against quality and at critical moments. When the opposition's guard is down is when Gia appears to step up. just seems cheap in my book and certainly not someone who would through regular inspirational on field acts make others rise to an occasion. On the topic of his raw statistics, it's not so much the quantity he often racks up eg Assists, Tackles etc but more about when and how he gathers them which is my concern with him being anoited Captain.

[lemmon]

I don't mind this bit, sometimes it's good to have the flamboyant player but Boyd doesn't finish off all his hard work. If he won the hard ball, always gave off to team mates in the best position, keep his opponent to low numbers and kick 2 or 3 goals he could have an ego as big as the Whitten oval.

But it comes back to when he doesnt have ball in hand, he has been matched up on Ablett and Swan in recent weeks yet chooses to stand off them at stoppages. Mate you are playing on THE TWO BEST PLAYERS IN THE COMPETITION, put a finger in the back and stay on their hip. How can he believe that he would do more damage then these two guys? His words may not reflect but the way he has been playing with the recent attention stinks of a certain degree of hubris.

[Topdog]

On the topic of the OP I just cannot see how Gia presented himself when it counted. If leadership is partly about 'by example' I feel he too often fails the 'die for the jumper' test against quality and at critical moments. When the opposition's guard is down is when Gia appears to step up. just seems cheap in my book and certainly not someone who would through regular inspirational on field acts make others rise to an occasion. On the topic of his raw statistics, it's not so much the quantity he often racks up eg Assists, Tackles etc but more about when and how he gathers them which is my concern with him being anoited Captain.

So I gather everyone saw him bumped off by Toovey but didn't see him run with the flight of the ball for 20 metres and get cleaned up trying to take a mark.

[LostDoggy]

So I gather everyone saw him bumped off by Toovey but didn't see him run with the flight of the ball for 20 metres and get cleaned up trying to take a mark.

Agreed. I can't understand the animosity towards Gia. He's been good this year. Certainly the best in his age bracket. When we had that good run of form in the second half of the season, it wasn't the return of Johnno as Eade keeps referring to, the reality was that it was Gia that was playing well and dragging the team with him. At 28, the bloke is still a key player and the best disposer and decision maker in the team.

[Desipura]

Agreed. I can't understand the animosity towards Gia. He's been good this year. Certainly the best in his age bracket. When we had that good run of form in the second half of the season, it wasn't the return of Johnno as Eade keeps referring to, the reality was that it was Gia that was playing well and dragging the team with him. At 28, the bloke is still a key player and the best disposer and decision maker in the team.
Gia being in our leadership group tells me how very few real leaders we have.
Would he get a game at Collingwood, Geelong or St Kilda?
If your answer is yes, you are kidding yourself. And secondly, which of these teams would he be in the leadership group for?

[Sedat]

Gee I must be on my lonesome in thinking Gia was pretty good last night.
Not when it counted in the first half. He was pretty good (relatively speaking) in the 2nd half - his left foot laser pass in heavy traffic in the 3rd qtr to Hall was just about the best kick of the night - but he and the rest of the leadership group simply had to influence the outcome of proceedings when the game was up for grabs. The Toovey bump and lack of effort in chasing was a symbolic moment that defined our on-field leadership vacuum - harsh on Gia as it singles him out but it was a very poor effort all the same. No poorer than the complete and utter disregard that Boyd and Cross had for their direct opponents Swan (BOG) and Pendlebury (2nd BOG) over the course of 120 minutes.

[Mofra]

Gia being in our leadership group tells me how very few real leaders we have.
Would he get a game at Collingwood, Geelong or St Kilda?
If your answer is yes, you are kidding yourself. And secondly, which of these teams would he be in the leadership group for?
He does some amazing work in close, sacrifices his game for the team when need be, and is very vocal at times when it is needed. He'd definately be playing in any of the sides.

The single most brilliant piece of play I have seen this year from a Bulldog was Gia in the first Hawthorn game.

[Topdog]

Gia being in our leadership group tells me how very few real leaders we have.
Would he get a game at Collingwood, Geelong or St Kilda?
If your answer is yes, you are kidding yourself. And secondly, which of these teams would he be in the leadership group for?

Would 100% be playing at Collingwood and St Kilda. Geelong would probably be playing.

[Desipura]

He does some amazing work in close, sacrifices his game for the team when need be, and is very vocal at times when it is needed. He'd definately be playing in any of the sides.

The single most brilliant piece of play I have seen this year from a Bulldog was Gia in the first Hawthorn game.
No he would not.

[Topdog]

No he would not.

Do you want a list of players that he would replace at the Pies and the Saints.

[Desipura]

Do you want a list of players that he would replace at the Pies and the Saints.
Give me your best shot, I believe he would not get a game.

[Desipura]

Collingwood use this model when looking at potential players. They have in the past chosen players who have performed well in under 18 finals. Two examples are Steele Sidebottom who kicked 10 goals on grand final day. Daisy Thomas was another who was BOG on grand final day.
Obviously you do not always have the luxury of picking up these players, it is an interesting recruiting strategy. They have had some success with the abovementioned players.

[Topdog]

Give me your best shot, I believe he would not get a game.

Macaffer, Blair, Davis all with ease. At this stage still Sidebottom and Beams.
Peake, McQualter, Schneider, Eddy and Ray.

[Desipura]

Macaffer, Blair, Davis all with ease. At this stage still Sidebottom and Beams.
Peake, McQualter, Schneider, Eddy and Ray.
What are you smoking? Blair was one of their best against us, totally different player to Gia.
Although Davis is struggling he has pace, you are not replacing like for like. Both players have a similar finals record, you are getting closer.
McQualter was one of heir best against quality opposition, love for Gia to do the same in a final.
Ray plays a different position and one of his assets is that he has a big engine.
Sidebottom and Beams were the biggest calls of all!

[Topdog]

Most of them play different positions to him but he would get a game ahead of all of them and most of them easily.

Medhurst doesn't have pace either but he and Davis are fighting for the same spot.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Gia could just about win our B & F.

He was in the top few in our Marmo and half the people on here wouldn't give him a vote with 40 touches and 8 goals.

[LostDoggy]

Gia could just about win our B & F.

He was in the top few in our Marmo and half the people on here wouldn't give him a vote with 40 touches and 8 goals.

Has had a terrific year in my opinion, just needs to really establish himself in finals.

[Desipura]

Gia could just about win our B & F.

He was in the top few in our Marmo and half the people on here wouldn't give him a vote with 40 touches and 8 goals.

How many players at other clubs have a player that has
a nice kick on then like Gia and is up there in goal assists
is very slow and not overly tall.
is not noted for his tackling
does not have a big enough engine to play predominanatly in the middle
although goes in hard, lacks a physical presence.
he's body work one on one on someone of a similar build is ok.

I have a spot for him in our side, I judge him harder when people call for him to be made captain.

[Sedat]

As a collective group, our leaders were exceptional in the 2nd half tonight. Boyd and Cross wrestled back control of the stoppages that were massively in favour of Sydney earlier in the match, Gia was involved in almost every Bulldog 2nd half goal, and Johnno worked tirelessly to provide an option across half forward (allowing Hall to play deeper). Credit where it is due, all 4 leaders stepped it up big time on the battlefield tonight.

[The Doctor]

As a collective group, our leaders were exceptional in the 2nd half tonight. Boyd and Cross wrestled back control of the stoppages that were massively in favour of Sydney earlier in the match, Gia was involved in almost every Bulldog 2nd half goal, and Johnno worked tirelessly to provide an option across half forward (allowing Hall to play deeper). Credit where it is due, all 4 leaders stepped it up big time on the battlefield tonight.

Agreed

Murphy has been exceptional this finals series so far. I thought in previous finals series he had been one of the under performers. Can't say that this year.

[lemmon]

Gia was brilliant in the second half, along with Murph was the catalyst for the recovery. His gut running was a feature really worked Shaw over.

[Mantis]

Murphy has been exceptional this finals series so far. I thought in previous finals series he had been one of the under performers. Can't say that this year.

Helps when his knee joints aren't being held together by some string.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Agreed

Murphy has been exceptional this finals series so far. I thought in previous finals series he had been one of the under performers. Can't say that this year.

Absolutely. to be honest I thought alot of our older 'leader's cards were unable to produce under the pressure of a big game. They all stepped up when it really mattered tonight. Not good that we had to dig ourselves out of a big hole, but the resolve amongst the leaders to stop the rot, and not accept another meek surrender was very pleasing to see. Great also to see Gia and Murph nail some important shots on goal. Especially Murph in the 4th.
I hate to admit it, but as he wound up to kick, I said that in these positions he usually skews them badly. But he hit it truly!

[LostDoggy]

Did anyone see Gia spew up after the game? He really gave it his all last night.

[LostDoggy]

Did anyone see Gia spew up after the game? He really gave it his all last night.

Yep, saw that. Gia was quality last night and responded to the criticism he received in the media.

[Mantis]

Yep, saw that. Gia was quality last night and responded to the criticism he received in the media.

You're an easy marker.

Gia kicked 2 vital goals in the last qtr, but neither were as a result of his good work.

He also missed a crucial shot in the last qtr that a player of his ability should have kicked.

He will want to have more than 11 touches next week if we are to be a chance.

[Sockeye Salmon]

You're an easy marker.

Gia kicked 2 vital goals in the last qtr, but neither were as a result of his good work.

He also missed a crucial shot in the last qtr that a player of his ability should have kicked.

He will won't to have more than 11 touches next week if we are to be a chance.

He did lay on Murphy's goal as well by gut running until Shaw couldn't go with him any more and then put it lace out on Murphy's chest.

[Mantis]

He did lay on Murphy's goal as well by gut running until Shaw couldn't go with him any more and then put it lace out on Murphy's chest.

Yes he did.

What Gia did, he did well, just would have liked to see him gather a few more touches and kick that crucial goal.

[Ozza]

Did anyone see Gia spew up after the game? He really gave it his all last night.

Yeah - was 3 or 4 spews by the time he came off the ground.

[Ozza]

You're an easy marker.

Gia kicked 2 vital goals in the last qtr, but neither were as a result of his good work.

He also missed a crucial shot in the last qtr that a player of his ability should have kicked.

He will want to have more than 11 touches next week if we are to be a chance.

I hear what you're saying but I think his low number of touches was a fair bit to do with the circumstances.

In the first half - he was trying to tag McVeigh and even ended up at full back for a brief period. All the while, Rhys Shaw was trying to go to him - and the result was a lot of running around in circles for the lot of them. Once Rocket accepted that Shaw was going to Gia no matter what - he was very deep in the forward line.

Given the circumstances - he (apart from one missed chance) took his chances and got in the right spots and as Rocket would say...that was pleasing. His first two goals would be easily missed by a lot of players. I've seen plenty of AFL footballers slam those checkside, on the run shots straight into the woodwork.