Lloyd or Hall?

[LostDoggy]

I'm not sure if this thread already exists, but since I couldn't find one, I thought I'd start the conversation;

Barry Hall has long been mooted as a sure thing to come to the Dogs (pending finals results), and there is a long thread here on WOOF discussing this. Now that Matthew Lloyd seems to also be on the table, are there attractions that may force a re-think from the Dogs about which aging superstar we would rather go for?

I think Lloyd offers a couple of positives compared to Hall:

Temperament: Barry's crazy outbursts are well-documented. We won't get this with Lloydy, who is as professional as they come. Even his 'hit' on Sewell for which he was suspended (more about this later) was a calculated, team-inspiring act rather than a brainfade.

Leadership: Hall was acting captain at Sydney and clearly has a 'follow-me' quality, but Lloyd is a bona-fide leader of men (whatever you may think of him). His professionalism will also rub off well on the younger guys, and be appreciated by the senior players, more so than say Hall, who may be a bit of a loose cannon (and we already have one in Aker).

Goals: Lloydy is a 100-goal a year full-forward (twice) and averages close to 70 a year. Hall, for all his incredible prowess, has never kicked more than 80 a season, and averages closer to 50 (similar stats to Welsh in H&A). Lloydy is also a year younger, which may not be seen as a huge factor, but means that he may be more value over the journey.

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As far as compensation goes, I can't imagine either Sydney or Essendon would be too aggressive at the trading table as both players want to leave and are at the older end of the scale. There may be a question about the salary cap, but indications are that Hall isn't willing to budge from a $350k minimum anyway.

Also, does Hall fit the need more than Lloyd, who is more of a leading hit-up forward, of which we already have a few, though none of his class? Hall may be more of the physical presence in the goalsquare, but then again, he does get most of his goals on the lead, contrary to popular belief.

The only knock on Lloydy is the aforementioned suspension for his hit on Sewell that will see him start 2010 a few matches late, but this could end up being a good thing in any case as a 22-game season + finals is a long time, and may see him fresh for the business end of the year...

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What does everyone think? I know that there are some genuine Lloyd-haters here, so if we could try to keep the discussion rational rather than emotional that would be fantastic.

[dog town]

Think back to what Brian Lake did to Lloyd the last time we played Essendon. Every time the bombers midfield felt the pressure and kicked it forward hopefully Lake would come out and take a grab or influence the contest in some way. At one stage Lloyd was doing everything possible to stay out of the play so that Lake couldn't influence it. Lake ended up paying him little or no attention.

I would have thought the whole reason for getting a big forward is to stop this exact scenario. I dont think Lloyd gives us a great deal that we dont already have.

[bulldogtragic]

I watched the Dons vs Hawks game, and Lloyd in the forward line didn't look like the Lloyd of old - not even close. His movement, speed and leap seem gone or at least significantly deminished. To me he looks like he is or at least plays 'older' than Hall who still has that burst of speed on the lead. But that said he could kick aswag of goals in the RW&B next year.

But on the other hand, Barry looks to have more weapons in his game. He is by no means the safest bet and his aggression is an issue. But package for package and pounf for pound, I think he gives us a little more than Lloyd. His desire to come back and right some wrongs is a strong influence for me too.

So that said, I think go for Hall but set some contractual and trading parameters about at what point it works very well for us. if we can achieve that than look at llyod as a secondary option. I think Welsh's day's are at an end unfortunately, but i have no problem continually 'topping up' that spot on the list with like for like.

[Cyberdoggie]

No to the Velvet Sledgehammer.

He's not what we are after.

[chef]

Hall for sure, Lloyd is finished.

[LostDoggy]

Hall by a mile has alot more to offer

[Cammas]

Hall for sure.His got a lot to prove to rocket and the AFL, and doesnt want to leave the game known as a thug. llyod has past his use by date. GO DOGS!!!

[The Coon Dog]

Hall for sure, Lloyd is finished.

I agree.

[mighty_west]

Barry Hall.

I have no doubt both players could play a role in our side up forward, but we have pretty much been all over Barry since last years trade, when he wanted to play with us by all reports, plus i'm sure there would have been talks between both parties since, you would think he would have the fire in the belly and a geniune want to come to our club, for Lloyd, it would be an after thought imo just to continue on playing, plus, i'm not a fan of champion players in their twilights changing clubs, with Hall, he's played for both Saints & Swans, Lloydy is a genuine Essendon champion.

Just throwing a curve ball, and i was listening to SEN a few days back, and Ricky Nixon [yes we know he is a clown], but was talking about the upcoming draft & trade period and generally believes there will be alot more trade action this year because of the weak draft, saying that up to pick 7 or 8 might nab you a good player, but falls away badly after that time.

He suggested we could look at Bradshaw for our first pick [15-17], could be a win/win for both clubs.

[LostDoggy]

He suggested we could look at Bradshaw for our first pick [15-17], could be a win/win for both clubs.

Yes please.

[Bulldog Revolution]

He suggested we could look at Bradshaw for our first pick [15-17], could be a win/win for both clubs.

This is one we should have looked at years a go when they had Lynch and weren't actually keen to give him a game in the forward line

[The Doctor]

He suggested we could look at Bradshaw for our first pick [15-17], could be a win/win for both clubs.


If he thinks that deal is a win win then he's a bigger tosser than I thought.

Why would we give up a first round pick for a 31 year old who has recently had a knee reco especially when there are 2 better power forwards that we could go for for next to nix?

[bulldogtragic]

If he thinks that deal is a win win then he's a bigger tosser than I thought.

Why would we give up a first round pick for a 31 year old who has recently had a knee reco especially when there are 2 better power forwards that we could go for for next to nix?
Not even close to win/win. Win/win is where both parties win, not where one win and one gets anally sodomised (us in this scenario).

[Mofra]

No to Lloyd, Bradshaw is way to expensive (as much as I think he's an absolute gun).

Hall would fit us perfectly - we only need one of Grant, Boumann or Jones to take their chance in 2 year's time and it would look an inspired move (assuming Cordy plays ruck not forward).

[firstdogonthemoon]

No to Lloyd - Yes to Barry. This club has shown that it can take an idiosyncratic veteran (Aker) and make it work very well. Also, Hall and Eade have positive history.

I am pro Hall/Dogs.

[Desipura]

Interesting isn't it? If it was based on looks, the girls would take Lloyd as Hall has a head that only his mother would love.
Yet Big bad buzzling Bazza would be more marketable, go figure!

[bornadog]

Hall, besides he use to be a doggies supporter:)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Lloyd has also had some big hamstring injuries over the last couple of years.

Hall's body is holding up better (so it should, he gives it a rest at some point most seasons).

[hujsh]

Think back to what Brian Lake did to Lloyd the last time we played Essendon. Every time the bombers midfield felt the pressure and kicked it forward hopefully Lake would come out and take a grab or influence the contest in some way. At one stage Lloyd was doing everything possible to stay out of the play so that Lake couldn't influence it. Lake ended up paying him little or no attention.

I would have thought the whole reason for getting a big forward is to stop this exact scenario. I dont think Lloyd gives us a great deal that we dont already have.

To be fair Lake did the same to Hall for a half until the Sydney mid got on top and Hall began to get goals on the lead.

[Sedat]

To be fair Lake did the same to Hall for a half until the Sydney mid got on top and Hall began to get goals on the lead.
I'd venture to say that nobody had kicked more goals on Lake all season than Hall.

Hall's defensive work in the forward 50 is underrated. He works as hard as any key forward in the defensive pursuits with the exception of Reiwoldt. His defensive pressure will be a terrific benefit to us in 2010.

[The Coon Dog]

I'd venture to say that nobody had kicked more goals on Lake all season than Hall.

Hall's defensive work in the forward 50 is underrated. He works as hard as any key forward in the defensive pursuits with the exception of Reiwoldt. His defensive pressure will be a terrific benefit to us in 2010.

He's also selfless in that he's prepared to lead a defender away from another forward & is prepared to block to allow another forward access. It's not all about him.

[LostDoggy]

Hall, besides he use to be a doggies supporter:)

That's something I didn't know, just another tick for Hall over Lloyd. On the flipside, as a fan I would have no problem getting behind Hall. He is an interesting character that I think would work well within the team for all the reasons above and would inspire excitement in me as a doggies fan.
For some reason, I have a hard time imagining ever barracking for Lloyd...

[dog town]

To be fair Lake did the same to Hall for a half until the Sydney mid got on top and Hall began to get goals on the lead. That's a fair call. I thought Hall looked dangerous at times though and able to bring the ball to ground. Lloyd looked out of his depth as ridiculous as it sounds for a bloke that good. Lloyd is reasonably strong in the air but he isn't really that big and I think Lake was monstering him in the air. IMO if we had Hall with our quality small forwards we would be able to get him plenty of one on one opportunities and not many are going to out mark him in that situation.

I suppose the worst thing we could do is bring in a big forward and start dropping the ball on his head. I think anyone we get needs to be in to compliment what we already have, not replace what we already have. Reiwoldt, Brown etc wouldnt help us if we just kicked it up in the air to them every time. For me Hall has a balanced enough game to fit in alongside our smalls. You would hope that our team of quality smalls would help him to get more 1 on 1 contests both deep and leading up the ground which he also does well from his Sydney days. I believe he would spend time on the interchange bench as well. We dont want to lose that unpredictability that has us in a position to challenge for a flag right now.

[BulldogBelle]

Just Halls size and physical attributes make him a better option. I think he would bring our smaller forwards into the game more than Lloyd. From an opposition point of view, I'd be more concerned about the match up on Hall than Lloyd. Physically, he's more durable, and the because of the way he plays I think he will last as long as what Lloyd would, even though he's the older of the two.

[strebla]

I think this is a no brainer hall body is in better nic and he works his ass of when he is in the team.If you add the Eade relationship and him wanting to go out on a positive note Hall every time.As for $350,000 I think that is a touch steep I would go with $250,000 plus incentives.

[AndrewP6]

Hall Hall Hall Hall Hall Hall Hall Hall Hall...

Offers much more, better physical presence, will help the young blokes no end (and could work part-time with our boxing coach!:)

Lay out the welcome mat already...

[bulldogsman]

Lloyd is done. 1 week injuries have been blown out to 3 or 4 weeks, we would be stupid to take him.

Barry Hall thanks.

[azabob]

Lloyd has also had some big hamstring injuries over the last couple of years.

Hall's body is holding up better (so it should, he gives it a rest at some point most seasons).

My concern is with Hall's body. When Aker first came over he spent most of 2007 injured due to missing half a year in 2006.
Hall is older and missed just as much footy how will his body hold up after missing so much football?

[macca]

Hall for me. Its all about timing. Hall will be the icing on the cake, a big powerful forward who has a chance of redemption, proving to people out there he is more than a thug. He is available. And the biggest thing of all, a chance of another premiership. He will teach guys like Grant, Boumann, Daniels, Hill and Lake how to lead and out body players.This experience factor will rub off on these guys, like Aker with the midfield and kicking. We would be stupid not to get him. He is so, so much more attractive to get than the dude rawlings deal that killed us for years.

[Ozza]

Hall for mine also.

However (may have already been mentioned) Luke Darcy was saying he'd prefer Lloyd to go to the Bulldogs, when speaking about it on Triple M yesterday. Darce was adamant lloyd would suit the doggies and had no doubt he could kick "65 goals playing out our full forward with us".

He didn't really delve into it more than that unfortunately.

[KT31]

Hall by a country mile.
Lloyd is well and truly finished.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting that the call is more for Hall here. I, too, am leaning that way, but mostly because Barry is Big and Bad, and that seems to be what we're needing.

However, I heard the Luke Darcy comments too, and rationally, Lloyd isn't the hack most here seem to be implying. Essendon has won against some handy opponents this year with a young and mostly inexperienced team, and Lloyd has held his own in many of those games. Sure, Lake owned him this year, but that could be said of 95% of the other full-forwards in the competition, and they're not all hacks -- Brian's just had a hell of a season.

As I also wrote in the OP, he's a consistently higher goal-scorer than Hall, despite a perception about Hall being more potent recently. I think Lloydy was just coming off such a high standard that his recent seasons have been viewed unfavourably while actually being quite good (a bit like Johnno). Left in the goalsquare, he would have a serious impact for the Dogs.

Also, it's interesting the talk about Hall's defensive workrate -- if we're comparing workrates, surely a guy who has played most of the year at CHF working up the field (Lloyd) would be higher than a (mostly) stay at home FF (Hall)? There also seems to be implication that Lloydy is 'finished', but a 'finished' forwardline player gets stuck in the goalsquare -- the fact that Knights still wants Lloyd to play a mostly roaming role suggests that the tank is still well and truly intact, surely.

Just some thoughts (playing devil's advocate)...

Ps. I would say that Lloyd has two good years left in him, in the right environment. He's also easily a Team of the Century player. Is Hall in the same class?

[LostDoggy]

I say both, replace Hahn and Welsh with Lloyd and Hall.

[dog town]

Interesting that the call is more for Hall here. I, too, am leaning that way, but mostly because Barry is Big and Bad, and that seems to be what we're needing.

However, I heard the Luke Darcy comments too, and rationally, Lloyd isn't the hack most here seem to be implying. Essendon has won against some handy opponents this year with a young and mostly inexperienced team, and Lloyd has held his own in many of those games. Sure, Lake owned him this year, but that could be said of 95% of the other full-forwards in the competition, and they're not all hacks -- Brian's just had a hell of a season.

As I also wrote in the OP, he's a consistently higher goal-scorer than Hall, despite a perception about Hall being more potent recently. I think Lloydy was just coming off such a high standard that his recent seasons have been viewed unfavourably while actually being quite good (a bit like Johnno). Left in the goalsquare, he would have a serious impact for the Dogs.

Also, it's interesting the talk about Hall's defensive workrate -- if we're comparing workrates, surely a guy who has played most of the year at CHF working up the field (Lloyd) would be higher than a (mostly) stay at home FF (Hall)? There also seems to be implication that Lloydy is 'finished', but a 'finished' forwardline player gets stuck in the goalsquare -- the fact that Knights still wants Lloyd to play a mostly roaming role suggests that the tank is still well and truly intact, surely.

Just some thoughts (playing devil's advocate)...

Ps. I would say that Lloyd has two good years left in him, in the right environment. He's also easily a Team of the Century player. Is Hall in the same class? Lloyd is certainly no hack but I just dont think he is the right fit. He doesn't really give us anything we dont already have and to take another guy over 30 they would want to be almost a perfect fit. Take nothing away from what Lloyd has done, he is a champion but at this stage he is not as good a fit as Barry Hall IMO.

[LostDoggy]

I say both, replace Hahn and Welsh with Lloyd and Hall.

My thoughts precisely, actually -- of course, the salary cap will not allow this to happen.

[Dry Rot]

I

Also, it's interesting the talk about Hall's defensive workrate -- if we're comparing workrates, surely a guy who has played most of the year at CHF working up the field (Lloyd) would be higher than a (mostly) stay at home FF (Hall)?

Have you seen Hall play live? That's way wrong.

I am all for getting Hall to help the young talls but not to get a flag (he will probably get rubbed out when we need him).

But while he is on the field, he can give us two types of CHF.

When needed, he works up the ground and would help our defence with a get out option and he also goes back closer to the sticks providing a good contested mark.

Watch him live and Hall will surprise you - he can be a real hard working forward away from the goal square.

Ditto O'Keefe - when the Swans were really good those two worked their arses off all over the field.

Hall was working so hard a few years ago vs us @ Manuka Oval that Lake employed a clever strategy - he let Hall gather possessions up the field and closely defended on him when Hall came closer to goals.

If Hall joins us next season, then there are two big IFS:

- If Hall can recapture his fitness AND

- Somehow fix his head (which I doubt)

then the Dogs will have a tall forward of the quality that I think you Melbourne based folk don't really appreciate because you've seen little of him live.

His work rate and doing "team things" will really surprise you.

Wait till you see him for many games in our colours - if my two big IFS are satisfied, then you and our team will have a very nice present in 2010.

[ratsmac]

For some reason, I have a hard time imagining ever barracking for Lloyd...

Ditto to that. Never liked Lloyd and never will. He wont leave Essondon anyway. If he doesn't get the contract he wants he will retire.

[LostDoggy]

Both would be ideal!

However like many have said, don't think Lloyd will leave Essendon. Also sounds like the Hall deal is all but done. Lets just hope he doesn't have too many brain fazes.

[Ozza]

Both would be ideal!

However like many have said, don't think Lloyd will leave Essendon. Also sounds like the Hall deal is all but done. Lets just hope he doesn't have too many brain fazes.

Welcome to Woof Nawrocki.

I heard an interesting inside word yesterday - that based on conversations on a trip to the Gold Coast for the Essendon boys (McVeigh's bucks trip) - the feel was that Lloyd would definitely leave Essendon. The feeling was he was either going elsewhere or retired - by the way Lloyd was talking whilst up there.

[Sedat]

His work rate and doing "team things" will really surprise you.
Playing for Sydney, he's had no choice but to be strong in these selfless, team-oriented pursuits. That's exactly why I love the idea of getting Hall to our club. The days of the stay-at-home gorilla key forward are over (despite the rubbish assertins from the media) and have been over for 3 years. The likes of Franklin, Mooney and Reiwoldt have been pivotal players for their clubs in recent seasons because of their exceptional work-rate to run and present multiple times throughout the course of a match - Hall is very much in this vein and Lloyd isn't. And while the best opposition key defender is gasping for breath keeping up with Hall's work-rate, lesser defenders are assigned to the likes of Murphy, Aker, Johnson, Gia, Higgins, etc..

Just hope his head is right as his body is still in great nick. Absolutely well worth the risk (especially for the expected outlay) and is the perfect fit to address our specific needs/deficiencies.

[LostDoggy]

With Barry Hall at full forward, this will release Josh Hill to play in the midfield and on to his favoured wing position.....exciting times ahead, if this deal does go through:D

[LostDoggy]

Have you seen Hall play live? That's way wrong.

I am all for getting Hall to help the young talls but not to get a flag (he will probably get rubbed out when we need him).

But while he is on the field, he can give us two types of CHF.

When needed, he works up the ground and would help our defence with a get out option and he also goes back closer to the sticks providing a good contested mark.

Watch him live and Hall will surprise you - he can be a real hard working forward away from the goal square.

Ditto O'Keefe - when the Swans were really good those two worked their arses off all over the field.

Hall was working so hard a few years ago vs us @ Manuka Oval that Lake employed a clever strategy - he let Hall gather possessions up the field and closely defended on him when Hall came closer to goals.

If Hall joins us next season, then there are two big IFS:

- If Hall can recapture his fitness AND

- Somehow fix his head (which I doubt)

then the Dogs will have a tall forward of the quality that I think you Melbourne based folk don't really appreciate because you've seen little of him live.

His work rate and doing "team things" will really surprise you.

Wait till you see him for many games in our colours - if my two big IFS are satisfied, then you and our team will have a very nice present in 2010.

You're right -- everytime I've watched Sydney play I'm struck by how far up the field Hall works. It just slipped my mind when I was writing the post as I was thinking about Lloydy's roving role this year.

[LostDoggy]

Does anyone have any confidence that Hall will actually get to the club even if he wants to?? I agree with all the sentiments expressed in favour of securing him but there still seem to be two fairly large problems.

1. His management has indicated they are looking for something like $350,000 a year. While this is probably more then he will get, it still indicates that he won't come cheap (maybe 250k-300k). Given we look to have promised something like $400,000-$450,000/year to Lake, likely we would need to have Welsh and Eagle retire with Johnno and Aker taking a large paycut to get near it.

2. Unless we can do a deal with Sydney to get him in the trade week, there is no guarantee that we will get him in the draft (hopefully we are very low down in the order). Does anyone know if he is still a listed player at Sydney and therefore if he can be traded? Even if he can what do we give them for him?? Likely they would want either one of our mid to high draft picks (around 30) or one of our younger players. I am guessing that if they wanted say Addison (NSW boy and the tough type that Roos seems to like) many people may say ok, but what if they want O'keefe (talented but can't break into our team) or Boumann??

The one good thing about the Lloyd issue is that the presence of another key forward in the draft (If that eventuates) may make it easier to come to terms with both Hall and Sydney.

[LostDoggy]

I'm pretty sure Aker is taking a big pay cut (half?).

Hall is still listed on the Sydney roster, they do want a trade for him. We should be able to offload an unwanted player to them plus a draft pick.

But I know there are others on here who know a lot more than me.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Does anyone have any confidence that Hall will actually get to the club even if he wants to?? I agree with all the sentiments expressed in favour of securing him but there still seem to be two fairly large problems.

1. His management has indicated they are looking for something like $350,000 a year. While this is probably more then he will get, it still indicates that he won't come cheap (maybe 250k-300k). Given we look to have promised something like $400,000-$450,000/year to Lake, likely we would need to have Welsh and Eagle retire with Johnno and Aker taking a large paycut to get near it.

2. Unless we can do a deal with Sydney to get him in the trade week, there is no guarantee that we will get him in the draft (hopefully we are very low down in the order). Does anyone know if he is still a listed player at Sydney and therefore if he can be traded? Even if he can what do we give them for him?? Likely they would want either one of our mid to high draft picks (around 30) or one of our younger players. I am guessing that if they wanted say Addison (NSW boy and the tough type that Roos seems to like) many people may say ok, but what if they want O'keefe (talented but can't break into our team) or Boumann??

The one good thing about the Lloyd issue is that the presence of another key forward in the draft (If that eventuates) may make it easier to come to terms with both Hall and Sydney.

You try not to seem over-anxious until after the paperwork's signed (then you have a little giggle when you're out of sight).

[LostDoggy]

You try not to seem over-anxious until after the paperwork's signed (then you have a little giggle when you're out of sight).

Tsk tsk tsk. How do you know Paul Roos doesn't trawl WOOF?