Saints 2008 to 2009 ... What's the difference?

[Scraggers]

As I sit back and mull over the 2009 season, I wonder what did St. Kilda do that enabled them to take that elusive next step compared to the Bulldogs this year.

If you remember back to 2008, the Saints snuck into the double chance by flogging Essendon by 108 points effectively stealing fourth from Adelaide by 0.82%. Whereas the Bulldogs knew they would finish third and play Hawthorn by round18.

In the qualifying finals both the Saints and Bulldogs got flogged (Saints by 58 points against Geelong, and the Bulldogs by 51 points by Hawthorn)

The semi finals were also very similar results; the Bulldogs beat Sydney by 37points, whilst the Saints beat Collingwood by 34 points.

Both teams then played in the Preliminary finals … (Saints lost to Hawthorn by 54 points, and Dogs lost to Geelong by 29 points).

A very similar finals campaign …


The trade period saw St. Kilda take Farren Ray and pick #48 from us in return for pick #31. The Saints also picked up Tom Lynch (pick #13), Rhys Stanley (pick #47), Nicholas Heyne (pick #48), Alistair Smith (pick #62), Paul Cahill (pick # 73), and Colm Beagley (pick #83) … the only rookie draft of any note for the Saints was Zac Dawson.

Compared to The Bulldogs who picked up Ayce Cordy (pick #14 F/S), Jordan Roughhead (pick #31) and Liam Jones (pick #32) … the only rookie draft of any note for the Dogs was Liam Picken.


Now except for Farren Ray, who has bolstered St. Kilda’s half-back line, I cannot see significant differences in the either playing rosters from the 2008 season (that resulted in very similar finals campaigns) to the 2009 season (which has seen the Saints make it to the big dance) …

So my question is … What have the Saints done between the end of the 2008 season and now to win 5 more home and away matches than us; and more importantly make it to the last week in September ????

[AndrewP6]

I think it's a couple of things...

Their approach to defensive pressure seems to have improved tenfold... talk all this year has been about their ability to stifle opponents. Ours has improved, but not enough, IMO.

They have gotten more out of players who have had great potential for quite a while. No one feared Kosi and Custard last year, and in '09 the 'Twin Towers' have built a great rep. We've had to continue to manufacture scores with a midget forward line, incredibly we were, for the most part, able to do so this season.

[boydogs]

They have developed a structure and a game plan that revolves around their tall defenders and forwards, the latter of which we don't have. They have created a culture whereby every player must perform and earn their spot and not rely on being selected based on reputation, which we have not implemented. Their forwards are fantastic at applying defensive pressure, which despite the fact we don't have to carry a gorilla down there we are behind in, partly due to the age of our players there

[Rocket Science]

So my question is … What have the Saints done between the end of the 2008 season and now to win 5 more home and away matches than us;

Adhere to a simple yet extremely-effective game plan, and apply themselves consistently, to a man, week-in, week-out, from their stars to their footsoldiers.


and more importantly make it to the last week in September ????

That one's easy. They had the good fortune of drawing us as prelim opponents.

[comrade]

That one's easy. They had the good fortune of drawing us as prelim opponents.

Harsh, but sadly, very true.

[macca]

I think it's a couple of things...

Their approach to defensive pressure seems to have improved tenfold... talk all this year has been about their ability to stifle opponents. Ours has improved, but not enough, IMO.

They have gotten more out of players who have had great potential for quite a while. No one feared Kosi and Custard last year, and in '09 the 'Twin Towers' have built a great rep. We've had to continue to manufacture scores with a midget forward line, incredibly we were, for the most part, able to do so this season.

Massive improvements from the recycled players they picked up in draft over the last 2 years.

King and Garinder are injury free, and are working very well the ruck. Gardiner has had an outstanding year, and he adds a massive marking presence.

Dawson has add depth in the backline, and his kicking has been highly efficient this year.

Schneider is perfect foil to milne. Much harder and tougher player.

Lenny hayes has got to be a brownlow favourite. He has been playing up there with the angels.

Riewoldt is getting the deliver from a gut running midfield, and less spotlight has been put on Kosi, so all he has to do is just mark the ball.

Their tackling is much harder, and they run run run more. Their back six have clicked nad have an inante ability to work together. Blake, Fisher and sam gilbert are having sensationaly seasons.

Even Clarke, who I thought was a spud, showed some good marking and running on friday.
Young kids: clinton jones, mcqualter, gilberg, dempster, are playing some great footy.

the side has overall improved, from everyone, and Lyon has recruited cunningly with some luck to get a spine into a team which was soft.

Remember story when Lyons first came and they did not do squats. He could not believe it, the players just didn't have the strength in the lower half of their bodies.

The team is believing Lyon's plan and strategy now, and its obvious all the players are on board now. Lyon has addressed definicies even in their stars with Dal santo and Ball. dropping them. Can you imagine eade doing that to teach Eagleton, or Gia a lesson in hardness and countessed footy?

Massive massive difference from last year to this year.

[Sedat]

They'd want to win next week because, as Hawthorn have shown, structure/game plans can be overcome, but personnel cannot.

For the sake of the game (and our prospects) next year, I hope the Cats win next week. If the Saints get up, all other clubs imitate the reigning premier, which means shit low scoring football and endless packs and zones will be the norm next year. We play as close to the Cats' game style as anyone, so if they win other clubs will imitate the more attacking game plan (which we are already a couple of years ahead of).

[Scraggers]

I think it's a couple of things...

Their approach to defensive pressure seems to have improved tenfold... talk all this year has been about their ability to stifle opponents. Ours has improved, but not enough, IMO.

They have gotten more out of players who have had great potential for quite a while. No one feared Kosi and Custard last year, and in '09 the 'Twin Towers' have built a great rep. We've had to continue to manufacture scores with a midget forward line, incredibly we were, for the most part, able to do so this season.

I don't buy that as an excuse ... between Kosi and Reiwoldt they have kicked a similar amount of goals and taken similar amount of inside 50 marks (2008 to 2009).

Our forward line also has similar stats (2008 to 2009).

I do agree with their improved defensive pressure

[bornadog]

Great thread this. Another factor is they have not had injuries to key players as they ahve in the past. Kosi has been injured every year for long periods, as have other players over the years. The Saints have been injury free and also have some depth to cover players not performing.

[AndrewP6]

I don't buy that as an excuse ... between Kosi and Reiwoldt they have kicked a similar amount of goals and taken similar amount of inside 50 marks (2008 to 2009).

Our forward line also has similar stats (2008 to 2009).

I do agree with their improved defensive pressure

Wasn't offering an excuse...but those two are definitely working better this year, with the delivery they're getting, than last year. And I'd put up with them in our side (even if Kosi couldn't see a train coming with his peripheral vision, and Custard is a prick)...

[AndrewP6]

Can you imagine eade doing that to teach Eagleton, or Gia a lesson in hardness and countessed footy?

Massive massive difference from last year to this year.

Don't believe our depth is as good, making it harder to "make statements" like that.

Yes the saints are very different, but they turned it round in basically a preseason. As did Geelong, after the now famous "season review"... so there's got to be some hope.

[Remi Moses]

Paul Roos has filled in a police report on his missing game plan. Police believe an inside job with Roos knowing the offender one ROSS LYON. The cats will defeat Stkilda comfortably next week

[Scraggers]

Don't believe our depth is as good, making it harder to "make statements" like that.

Yes the saints are very different, but they turned it round in basically a preseason. As did Geelong, after the now famous "season review"... so there's got to be some hope.

This is what I am eluding to ...

the stats season to season for the key Saints don't show a significant difference, but with limited player change, they have turned things around from just making up numbers to being the number one team.

Is it a mindset ... a commitment to the cause ... a pact (like Hawthorn) ... what have St. Kilda, Geelong, and Hawthorn done in the pre-season to change their approach ...

And more importantly ... CAN WE ??

[AndrewP6]

Is it a mindset ... a commitment to the cause ... a pact (like Hawthorn) ...

And more importantly ... CAN WE ??

Yes to all of the above...once we take care of some deficiencies, in both personnel and mindset.

[LostDoggy]

I think it is clear as day, they picked up Farren Ray :p

[LostDoggy]

Yep. Farren Ray and Zac Dawson are the differences.

[LostDoggy]

All facetiousness aside, Lyon made the hard calls last year, not this year -- he hasn't blooded anyone this year (no rookies at all!), hasn't dropped anyone (I guess he hasn't really had to when they've been winning).

It does shows a long-term planning mentality, though, which I do think that Rocket has as well. Lyon has been building towards this for three years -- the first year was all about teaching a pack of soft, injury-prone front-runners about defensive, lock-down pressure (thus a concern about their uber-boring game plan then). Last year was about getting the balance right and learning to break games open. It was also about teaching 22-player accountability (thus dropping Milne and Dal Santo at times last year), and already some of the zoning was occuring (but lost in the hype of the Hawthorn zone). The team struggled a bit in the transition on game day (they would lose momentum everytime they changed styles), but they were learning, and got better towards the end of the season.

This season was a culmination of a simple, effective and ruthless game plan that had been drilled over three pre-seasons into a settled, mature group of players, and keeping Riewoldt injury-free was a big plus.

[LostDoggy]

Rocket has had the same long-term mentality, but from a different perspective. When he came on board, his first task was to teach a young, talented group of players how to beat their man, so he played man-to-man for the first year, where we got monstered at times, but learnt what was required to compete at this level. Then, he developed the running, play-on-at-all costs style to take advantage of the natural assets of the team. Getting the balance right between the uber-offensive style and getting a lock-down when momentum was shifting was our problem, but we're very close to perfecting it. We also had an older core of gun players that Rocket knew we had to utilise before their use-by date, thus a bit more trading for mature players (Aker, Huddo, Welsh) to fast-track our development; by all accounts, we've hunted aggressively for the missing KPF (Hall etc) in the past two seasons, because Rocket knew that it was the last piece of the puzzle -- hopefully next season won't be too late.

Just shows the fickle nature of football: no guarantees. A stray kick here or there, an umpiring error or two, and it's Rocket instead of Ross leading his team out next week, coaching plans vindicated.

(ps. contrast all this with Richmond's long-term planning!)

[LostDoggy]

Adhere to a simple yet extremely-effective game plan, and apply themselves consistently, to a man, week-in, week-out, from their stars to their footsoldiers.



That one's easy. They had the good fortune of drawing us as prelim opponents.

That comment and your Avatar says much about you - none of it complimentary.

Wander down to the Club and tell Eade and the players they choked you Dickhead!

[yeah_sampson]

That comment and your Avatar says much about you - none of it complimentary.

Wander down to the Club and tell Eade and the players they choked you Dickhead!

Harsh But Fair!!!

Too many Dogs Supporters rubbish their own club. My dad being one of them.

New Breed of Dog includes the supporters!

[bornadog]

That comment and your Avatar says much about you - none of it complimentary.

Wander down to the Club and tell Eade and the players they choked you Dickhead!

no need for that language.

[macca]

Rocket has had the same long-term mentality, but from a different perspective. When he came on board, his first task was to teach a young, talented group of players how to beat their man, so he played man-to-man for the first year, where we got monstered at times, but learnt what was required to compete at this level. Then, he developed the running, play-on-at-all costs style to take advantage of the natural assets of the team. Getting the balance right between the uber-offensive style and getting a lock-down when momentum was shifting was our problem, but we're very close to perfecting it. We also had an older core of gun players that Rocket knew we had to utilise before their use-by date, thus a bit more trading for mature players (Aker, Huddo, Welsh) to fast-track our development; by all accounts, we've hunted aggressively for the missing KPF (Hall etc) in the past two seasons, because Rocket knew that it was the last piece of the puzzle -- hopefully next season won't be too late.

Just shows the fickle nature of football: no guarantees. A stray kick here or there, an umpiring error or two, and it's Rocket instead of Ross leading his team out next week, coaching plans vindicated.

(ps. contrast all this with Richmond's long-term planning!)

Great post Lantern. Eade has a good development plan, and I guess he was fortunate he had a base of young and talented players to work with.

[Rocket Science]

That comment and your Avatar says much about you - none of it complimentary.

Wander down to the Club and tell Eade and the players they choked you Dickhead!

Dickhead with a capital 'D' no less.

The avatar's more an exaggerated comment on my own down-trodden state of mind in the wake of Friday eve's events and consequences, than a comment on the character of the club.

As for the statement, please excuse my wanton display of resignation.