Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm [Archive]

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bulldogsman

30-09-2009, 12:41 PM

Have a question ask Leigh Matthews. Starts in 30 mins

http://www.afl.com.au/offseason/westernbulldogs/westernbulldogsoffseasonlivechat/tabid/15047/default.aspx

Desipura

30-09-2009, 01:07 PM

I wonder what odds he gives us to win the flag in 2010 :rolleyes:

Ozza

30-09-2009, 01:44 PM

I observed a really pointless half an hour worth.

Desipura

30-09-2009, 01:46 PM

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 01:52 PM

afl.com.au:
Hello everyone.

The Western Bulldogs had a fairly successful season, maintaining a position in the top four and just falling short of making the grand final. We’re here with AFL legend Leigh Matthews to discuss the Dogs' 2009 season.

Did the Dogs achieve their full potential this year? What do they need to do to take the next step? Which of the Bulldogs' veterans should play on next year?

Apologies in advance that we won’t be able to publish ALL of your comments. We’ll do our best. Lethal is here – let's start with the questions!

1:09 [Comment From Chris]
Do you think Brian lake will stay?

1:09 [Comment From Tommy with a T]
G'day Leigh, is it just me or are you finding the Andrejs Everitt interest a bit over the top?

1:09 [Comment From dim]
Leigh, why don’t you think Brian Lake doesn’t play more of a forward role against certain teams with few key forwards? As he is such a good mark (in particular contested mark), it will give them a key target to look for. They won’t be losing too much down back as they still have the likes of Morris, Hargrave etc and he can go back down back if it’s not working??

1:10 Leigh Matthews: Chris, I think it's only a matter of the salary. The Bulldogs can't afford to lose Brian and eventually they'll have to pay whatever it takes to get him to stay.

1:10 [Comment From Ben]
Is Barry a certainty?

1:10 [Comment From ZAC]
hey leigh do you think griifin is a good trade for tippet

1:10 [Comment From Michael Z]
You obviously know Jason Akermanis well, Lethal. How much longer does he have left in the AFL?

1:11 [Comment From alex]
lethal as fevola wont be traded most likely, and tippet most likely not going anywere but goldcoast. the dogs look set to get hall do you think it is a good idea to throw griffen on the trade table and try for a younger better power forward? do you think his midfeild impact is to hard to replace?

1:11 [Comment From Tom]
Leigh, I believe the dogs are in need of another tall back given Williams cannot seem to get injury free. Is Spangher of WCE worth looking at?

1:11 Leigh Matthews: Tommy, I am surprised that the Bulldogs would even consider trading Everitt, but it is a trade and they would only do it if they think they could get someone good in return because he is a very promising young player.

1:11 [Comment From Bobby]
Hi Leigh, would you keep Eagleton and Aker on the list

1:12 [Comment From Sean]
is lake being a bit petty? or does he not think the dogs are a premiership chance? its pretty known the cats boys take less money to stay together. but he isn't having a bar of it???

1:12 Leigh Matthews: Zac, I have a lot of time for Kurt Tippett, and trading him for Ryan Griffin would be a good result for the Bulldogs.

1:12 [Comment From Harry]
Hi Leigh, do you think Barry Hall or Fevola would be a better pick up for the dogs?

1:12 [Comment From joel]
If williams is fit do you think he is in the best 22

1:12 [Comment From Bobby]
Which players should we try to trade?

1:13 [Comment From MrReims]
Leigh, have loved all your live chats so far. How can you see the potential Hall acquisition benefiting the doggies? I see only downsides to his behaviour, age and style of play

1:13 [Comment From Scraggers]
All the talk of a tall forward ... we were two straight kicks away from making a grand final, do you think our structure really needs a tall forward ... if so, is Hall the best answer or the best available?

1:13 Leigh Matthews: Tom, Tom Williams has looked a chance of being that tall running half-back. At the moment, he would be still a good chance of filling that role rather than looking elesewhere.

1:13 [Comment From Sam]
Hi Leigh, do you think there is any chance of us landing a deal with North Melbourne to get David Hale, maybe our 2nd round pick and a player, also do you think we can keep Lake?

1:14 [Comment From riley]
what do u think about trading a small backman like harbrow and a early draft pick for fev i think it would be a great move what do u think?

1:14 [Comment From Dogs Fan]
Lethal, enough of everyone putting up statements that will probably never eventuate, what do you think the dogs need to do realistically to be premiers in 2010?? They seemed very close in 2009, only stumbling in the last minutes of the game...

1:14 [Comment From Bobby]
Leigh, what's your thoughts on Fev? I think it would be a bad move by the dogs

1:15 [Comment From MrReims]
Leigh, with so many aging forwards is there not a better untried forward WB could also pick up cheap? Perhaps Michael Newton from Melbourne?

1:15 Leigh Matthews: Alex, the principle of trading a good midfielder - eg Griffen, etc - for a good quality tall forward would be worth doing, because you have plenty of good midfielders but no good big full-forward.

1:15 [Comment From Joseph]
do u think mat maguire from the saints would b good at the bullies he has proven he can ick goals for sandringham and he can be a solid defender too

1:15 [Comment From Elisabeth]
Leigh, what's the missing link for the Dogs and who out there is available to fill it? And what would it take to get him?

1:16 [Comment From Peter]
Leigh, you say that the Bulldogs will eventually have to pay Lake what he demands however dont you think that may cause pay negotiation problems for the cluyb in the future. I recall the Lions players all agreeing to a level of pay to ensure the group stayed together to enjoy further success.

1:16 [Comment From The tank]
Should Aker go again?

1:16 Leigh Matthews: Harry, I think Fevola would be a better option, if they both cost the same. The fact is, Hall will cost less in terms of salary and compensation to the Swans.

1:17 [Comment From Jake]
Leigh, Ashley Hansen, why don't the dogs go after him if they want a tall forward? If you watch the 2006 Grand Final he's much more effective than Barry Hall

1:17 [Comment From Sam]
any chance of the Dogs being able to trade Wayde Skipper and 3rd round pick maybe to the Hawks for Beau Dowler, he is a tall forward, they need a ruckman and we need the forward

1:17 [Comment From Dean]
Leigh, surely with Welsh retiring and the Dogs delisting Skipper & Wight, we now have to play Everitt more regularly and TOTALLY discount trading him?

1:17 [Comment From MrReims]
Honest opinion on big Will Minson? Originally I saw the benefit in the experiment, but lets face it, his skill levels are just not there. Or am I way off base?

1:18 Leigh Matthews: MrReims, the potential Hall acquisition adds a specific proven big forward to the Bulldogs list. How he would fit into the unity of the team is exactly what the coaches have to consider and make a judgment on.

1:18 [Comment From riley]
i think it is time for johnston to move on his been there for years and they still are yet to will a flag i no his good but i think it will free up there scellery cap and they might be able to pick up a young talent what do u think?

1:18 [Comment From westy]
hey Leigh, is Josh hill trade bait?? he seems out of favour down at the kennell at the moment

1:18 [Comment From Scraggers]
Why do you think we need a tall forward ... we were the highest scoring team in the AFL this year ... surely it's our defence that needs bolstering?

1:19 [Comment From tony]
with the bulldogs looking to delist Skipper (zero games 2009, emergency heaps) will that leave them exposed for ruckman if say hudson/minson get injured or lack of form ,together with the possibility of everitt being traded? would then have to rely on roughhead & cordy?

1:19 [Comment From phil]
what is going to happen with the draft of eoughhead and corby will hudson and minsen be tossed aside omce the youngssters bulk up?

1:19 [Comment From Bornadog]
Looking at the list overall, what do the Dogs need to take the next step?

1:20 [Comment From Mr Stanbrook]
hey leigh dogs need a tall faward tippet, hall or fev witch one would suit our team better

1:20 Leigh Matthews: Joseph, I'm not sure about Matt maguire's physical capabilities these days, but he might be, for the Bulldogs, what Leigh Brown was for Collingwood this year - a valuable utility who can fill in a variety of spots.

1:21 Leigh Matthews: Peter, you're right that pay demands have to be kept within reason, the problem is that Lake is irreplaceable and must be kept at all costs.

1:21 [Comment From Chris]
what do you rekon we could get for lake or griffen or everitt?

1:22 [Comment From Elisabeth]
Leigh, there is no way the Dogs will put Griffen on the trade table. He, like Cross, Coo, Callan Ward, Boyd, is untouchable. What other mids from the Dogs might be worth hanging out?

1:22 Leigh Matthews: Sam, I would think that Hawthorn value Beau Dowler too highly to entertain a Wade Skipper and third round pick trade.

1:22 [Comment From riley]
they are very close to flag but they need to make a few changes to there list who do u think should get the flick?

1:23 [Comment From harry]
hey leigh im a big fan haha um just wondering who do you think the next captain will be Higgins?

1:23 [Comment From Johnny]
Leigh, has Eagleton done enough to go around again

1:23 Leigh Matthews: Riley, I think Brad Johnson has been a magnificent player for many years, and I see no reason why he shouldn't continue on. He is still one of the Bulldogs' very best players.

1:23 [Comment From Craig]
Hey. How did you handle salary cap issues at Brisbane and what effect did it have on team morale? Do you think Lake asking for me will have much effect on the relationship wth his team mates?

1:24 [Comment From nathan]
hi leigh, im not sure if you have heard this one but theres a rumour going around that daniel cross could be going to collingwood! your thoughts?

1:24 [Comment From Harry]
Leigh, based on how they are performing, do you think Akermanis or Eagleton could handle going around again?

1:24 [Comment From Robby]
What do u think the dogs will give up to get Barry Hall, Leigh?

1:25 [Comment From Robby]
Who are the key players the doggies are looking for in trade week?

1:25 [Comment From Johnny]
If the dogs get Hall how good are our chances at a flag

1:25 Leigh Matthews: Scraggers, the concept of moving a tall full forward is more about what seems to be necessary in high-pressure finals footy. The fact is, the Bulldogs were that close to beating St Kilda in the preliminary final and you are right, it will not necessarily give that much improvement.

1:25 [Comment From Peter]
OK Leigh, as you can see by the amount of questions being fired at you that we are desperate to see a premiership ... or even a GF appearance for the Doggies. Your true thoughts ... are we close and what would you do to secure this to end the drought?

1:25 [Comment From tony]
should jonno hand over the captancy eg tredrea? It has been magnicant for him

1:26 [Comment From mark]
leigh what do you think of a simon wiggons for andraes evrit a straight swap

1:26 [Comment From MrReims]
Is the constant talk of the reduced quality of the next 3-4 drafts being overstated? How heavily do you see it affecting the existing clubs Leigh?

1:27 [Comment From Dale]
Ryan Gamble's name has been thrown around, do you think he would be a good fit for the dogs, If Everitt is unhappy at the kennel, is that a fair trade..

1:27 Leigh Matthews: Nathan, I would be very surprised if Daniel Cross was not at the Bulldogs next year. He and Matthew Boyd are still the heart of your midfield grunt.

1:27 [Comment From Robby]
If Everitt does go to saints, who are saints going to give up to get him, LEigh?

1:27 Leigh Matthews: Robby, nothing more than a third-round draft choice for Hall.

1:28 [Comment From Scraggers]
Is Barry Hall the best solution for the Dogs ... or the best available? In his last three seasons he has kicked 44, 41, and 31 goals respectively

1:28 [Comment From paul]
are sydney going to be cheap and try and get somthing ridiculous for hall so the trade dosent even get done?

1:29 Leigh Matthews: Peter, everyone at every club is desperate to see a premiership. The fact is the Bulldogs proved themselves to be the third-best team this year, and I think that was closer to the top two in 2009 than it was in 2008.

1:29 [Comment From Sam]
Leigh, do you think we could go after Barry Hall and David Hale, i think we need two key forwards and that with them two in there we have a very dangerous forward like so you think North would give Hale up?

1:29 [Comment From nathan]
yes not good tallies but the dogs have great kicking ability and i think he will get 50+ goals next year

bornadog

30-09-2009, 01:53 PM

So did I, I noticed Bornadog tried to ask a question.
Leigh thinks we shoould not pay anym ore than a 3rd round for Hall
thinks Everitt should stay as he is a future kpp
also said we should pay whatver Lake wants to keep him at the dogs

Yeah, wouldn't answer my question which was, What type of players do we need to take the next step.

I will answer my self, for 2010 we need, KPF, CHB and a running outside midfielder.

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 01:53 PM

(Continued)

1:30 Leigh Matthews: Mark, I can't see any reason why the Bulldogs would sway Everitt for Wiggins.

1:30 [Comment From Johnny]
Apart from a tall forward what other weaknesses do we need to sure up?

1:30 [Comment From Alex C]
leigh, id like to know what you think of Ryan Griffen and what you rate him as a player

1:31 Leigh Matthews: Scraggers, you have hit it on the head - Hall is the best available option, and we can dream big but ultimately this is the option that is probably the most doable.

1:31 [Comment From Craig]
Leigh, what do you think about our aging forwardline? What is a good way of avoiding the situation of them all retiring at once?

1:32 [Comment From MrReims]
Leigh, some great answers as always. Really love your blunt and to the point opinions. Honest opinion on big Will Minson? Does he bring enough to the team or should we start looking elsewhere with Hudson getting older. His skill level is just not good enough for mine

1:32 [Comment From Sam]
what do you think the dogs need to win it next year, if they are playing Everitt as a tall backman he needs to have a big preseason, but if they are de-listing Skipper, surely Everitt would be used as a ruckman, i think that he should be used as the 2nd ruckman and Minson dropped, at least Everitt can take a mark forward of the center

1:33 [Comment From Sean]
leigh, gilbee use to be recognised as the best kick in the afl, not as much so lately do you think he has dropped off or other players have bridged the gap with there kicking?

1:33 [Comment From Dale]
Do you think Will Minson needs to step up and start taking some contested marks, to relieve some pressure on our forward line.

1:33 [Comment From sebbb]
who do you think in the doggies team is most likely to be traded?

1:33 [Comment From Jim]
Leigh do u think the dogs best chance of a premership will be next year or do u think there still not quite there yet

1:33 Leigh Matthews: Dale, Ryan Gamble has played some good footy, I see him as a similar in style to Scott Welsh. not sure what is happening with the Everitt situation, but no, I don't think Gamble for Everitt would be a good trade.

1:34 [Comment From dog god]
hey leigh is aker more important now at the bulldogs then he was when at the lions??

1:34 [Comment From Sofee]
Hey Lethal! What place in the ladder do you think the Dogs will be in next year and why?'

1:35 [Comment From Smithy]
You rate everitt highy yet cant get a game why is that do u think?

1:35 Leigh Matthews: Sean, I think Lindsay Gilbee is stil one of the best kicks in the comp, when he or Nathan Eagleton are on the run towards the 50m line, they normally kick those difficult long goals.

1:35 [Comment From riley]
i think cooney had a ok season do u think he should hav a massive pre season and mabee thay should all hav a huge pre season it might make a huge difference and might win them the flag next year

1:36 [Comment From Sam]
what do you think about Eagletons future, i think its time they got rid of him, they need to give some young kids some game time otherwise we are gonna look like fools when Aker Johnno Huddo go

1:36 Leigh Matthews: Sam, Everitt is not a ruckman, he is a tall key-position player. I think you are a bit hard on Will Minson - the Minson-Hudosn ruck pair has bene pretty good.

1:36 [Comment From Sofee]
Leigh, a lot of the key Bulldogs players are over 30+ (Eagleton, Aker, Johnson etc), what do you say about this?

1:36 [Comment From Johnny]
Leigh where do you see our improvement coming from?

1:37 [Comment From Will]
Hi Leigh, do you think there is any chance of us landing a deal with North Melbourne to get David Hale, maybe our 2nd round pick and a player, also do you think we can keep Lake?

1:37 [Comment From MrReims]
I still think fitness is an issue at the Kennel. You always promoted a very high fitness level at the lions, where can they look to improve that?

1:38 Leigh Matthews: Riley, it appeared that Adam Cooney had some injury issues and had a soft pre-season after last year. He did not have quite the impact this year as he had in 2008, and to go further, getting him to his optimum performance more often would help make that happen.

1:39 [Comment From Ben]
any chance of making a simple trade of Skipper for Richmonds Jay Shultz?

1:39 [Comment From Matt]
how important will hall be

1:39 [Comment From Ron]
Leigh, I admired Jason Akermanis during his time with the Lions as he created opportunities for his team mates by gaining tough possessions and taking intelligent options using his skills to the utmost. At the Bulldogs, he appears to remain outside packs hoping to receive an uncontested possession and either score himself or pass to a teammate. Is he acting according to his coach's instructions or is he trying to preserve his body for one or two more years at AFL level. Thank you Leigh

1:39 Leigh Matthews: Sofee, it is a problem that a number of the Bulldogs medium-sizers are in the veteran category. Someone said to me once that you can age overnight and that is why it is difficult to judge the future prospects of players in their later years.

1:39 [Comment From Sofee]
Leigh, who do you think will be the star youngster next year for the dogs?

1:40 afl.com.au:
That’s all we have time for folks. Thanks for all your comments – and apologies once again that we couldn’t publish all of them. Tomorrow Wayne Schwass will be on board to discuss St Kilda (3pm-4pm) and Geelong (4.15-5.15pm).

1:40 [Comment From MrReims]
Cheers Leigh!

1:40 [Comment From Pete]
thanks lethal

1:40 [Comment From Sofee]
Thanks for your time Leigh!

1:40 [Comment From mark]
thanks leigh

1:40 [Comment From bob]
cheers leigh mate you legend

1:41 [Comment From nathan]
thanks for your time lethal cheers

1:41 [Comment From Scraggers]
Thanks for your insight Leigh, much appreciated !!

1:41 [Comment From riley]
thanks lethal

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 01:54 PM

Did you notice that he avoided every question about Akermanis ???

Ozza

30-09-2009, 02:05 PM

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 03:31 PM

1:28 [Comment From Scraggers]
Is Barry Hall the best solution for the Dogs ... or the best available? In his last three seasons he has kicked 44, 41, and 31 goals respectively

Probably worth noting that Hall's;
31 goals in 2009 were from 11 games
41 goals in 2008 were from 15 games
and
44 goals in 2007 were from 20 games

Meaning he has averaged 2.52 goals per game in that period.

Why did he only play 15 games in 2008 and 11 games in 2009 ?? ... suspension and forced retirement both from uncontrolled agression

WE don't need someone to kick goals for us !!!

We kicked more goals than any other team this year (link) (http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2009s.html)
It's not as if we are short of goal kickers ... the problem is there was only six teams that had more goals kicked against them (Richmond, Essendon, Fremantle, Melbourne, Port, and Carlton ... in that order)

We can kick winning scores ... we can't defend them

AndrewP6

30-09-2009, 03:43 PM

WE don't need someone to kick goals for us !!!

We kicked more goals than any other team this year (link) (http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2009s.html)
It's not as if we are short of goal kickers ... the problem is there was only six teams that had more goals kicked against them (Richmond, Essendon, Fremantle, Melbourne, Port, and Carlton ... in that order)

We can kick winning scores ... we can't defend them

We couldn't when it counted most... in September...

Ozza

30-09-2009, 03:43 PM

Why did he only play 15 games in 2008 and 11 games in 2009 ?? ... suspension and forced retirement both from uncontrolled agression

WE don't need someone to kick goals for us !!!

We kicked more goals than any other team this year (link) (http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2009s.html)
It's not as if we are short of goal kickers ... the problem is there was only six teams that had more goals kicked against them (Richmond, Essendon, Fremantle, Melbourne, Port, and Carlton ... in that order)

We can kick winning scores ... we can't defend them

Yes he was suspended in 08 - but he also had a broken wrist anyways.

We have kicked 14 goals combined in the last 2 prelim's. We clearly need a big target - and it was never more obvious than in the Prelim this year. If we had a big target to compete - our smaller guys would have had more opporunities.

We are great at kicking 20 goals in a game against sh1t sides - no doubts there.

We have a good defence - but our game style lends itself to both teams kicking alot of goals. In finals - teams are able to clamp down on our run - meaning the game is far more defensive and more often than usual - we will/have been forced to go long.

How did we go kicking long to Johnson, Aker, Hahn and Gia against St.Kilda??

hujsh

30-09-2009, 04:27 PM

mighty_west

30-09-2009, 05:02 PM

One thing is for sure, Leathal certaintly rates Everitt.

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 05:15 PM

We couldn't when it counted most... in September...

We had more scoring shots than the Saints ... we just couldn't kick straight ... if we had kicked 9.9 instead of 7.11, we would have won

Yes he was suspended in 08 - but he also had a broken wrist anyways.

That's a nothing statement ... you and I both know he broke his wrist two quarters after he clocked Staker ... he would have got six weeks regardless of the wrist. The fact of the matter is, he was unable to keep his cool.

We have kicked 14 goals combined in the last 2 prelim's. We clearly need a big target - and it was never more obvious than in the Prelim this year. If we had a big target to compete - our smaller guys would have had more opportunities.

We had our opportunities in both games ... we kicked 7.11 against the Saints in '09 ... we kicked 7.12 against the Cats in '08 ... We kick straighter in both those games and we win

A tall forward does not help you kick straighter ... look at Fevola this year ... he kicked 89 goals 57 points ... or Franklin in '08; he kicked 113 goals 88 points.

We have a good defence - but our game style lends itself to both teams kicking alot of goals.

Our defence is better than our forward line. We just play a way that leads to high scores both for and against us.

Clearly this is the problem ... a power forward is not going to change how many goals we have kicked against us; and seeing how we are already kicking more goals than any other side in the AFL, the discussion about the need for a power forward is moot.

I'm not saying don't go after Hall ... I think he is a good footballer (definitely trading up from Welsh who just retired) and I hope he plays extremely well for us ... what I am saying is that our forward structure has obviously worked when we have kicked the most goals for any AFL side this year ... BUT ... we need to look at how many goals are kicked against us and change that

hujsh

30-09-2009, 05:44 PM

We had our opportunities in both games ... we kicked 7.11 against the Saints in '09 ... we kicked 7.12 against the Cats in '08 ... We kick straighter in both those games and we win

And you don't think that adding a new element to the forwardline might see us with 9.14 instead of 7.12?

You can use stats all you like but after watching this team all year and seeing guys like Hill raped by backmen like Glass I can't see the harm in adding to our forward structure.

I'm not saying don't go after Hall ... I think he is a good footballer (definitely trading up from Welsh who just retired) and I hope he plays extremely well for us ... what I am saying is that our forward structure has obviously worked when we have kicked the most goals for any AFL side this year ... BUT ... we need to look at how many goals are kicked against us and change that

Seems irrelevant to me. That would most likely involve changing our gameplan so instead of winning 115 to 90 we win 95 to 70.

mighty_west

30-09-2009, 05:53 PM

We had more scoring shots than the Saints ... we just couldn't kick straight ... if we had kicked 9.9 instead of 7.11, we would have won

That's a nothing statement ... you and I both know he broke his wrist two quarters after he clocked Staker ... he would have got six weeks regardless of the wrist. The fact of the matter is, he was unable to keep his cool.

We had our opportunities in both games ... we kicked 7.11 against the Saints in '09 ... we kicked 7.12 against the Cats in '08 ... We kick straighter in both those games and we win

A tall forward does not help you kick straighter ... look at Fevola this year ... he kicked 89 goals 57 points ... or Franklin in '08; he kicked 113 goals 88 points.

Clearly this is the problem ... a power forward is not going to change how many goals we have kicked against us; and seeing how we are already kicking more goals than any other side in the AFL, the discussion about the need for a power forward is moot.

I'm not saying don't go after Hall ... I think he is a good footballer (definitely trading up from Welsh who just retired) and I hope he plays extremely well for us ... what I am saying is that our forward structure has obviously worked when we have kicked the most goals for any AFL side this year ... BUT ... we need to look at how many goals are kicked against us and change that

What Hally will bring, not just the scoring goals part, but having a player of his ilk in the forward line, all of a sudden Joshy Hill isn't stuck one on one with the oppositions key defender, he also presents & gives our midfield a very good target, he doesn't need to win the Coleman or kick 80 plus to contribute, plus all those stats about how many goals he has kicked in the past few seasons, you can put alot of that down to the game style Sydney play and have played, and compare the amount of oportunities he will be given with our supply.

Unfortunatly when it comes to the bigger games, when our midfield is suffocated to a point of having a long option and not being allowed to pin point out smaller forwards, that can happen during the home & away against the weaker teams, they can pressure us for so long, but eventually get found out, the better teams won't allow that, playing Minson in that big forward role is a cop out for not having anyone else to create a contest or pluck a big grab when clearly he is just a ruckman, and a decent one at that, a true forward like Hall will know exactly where to run, and won't drop mark after mark.

So what will Barry Hall give us, a real forward that won't get pushed aside in contested situations, and has the height to contest with the better tall defenders.

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 06:01 PM

And you don't think that adding a new element to the forwardline might see us with 9.14 instead of 7.12?

You can use stats all you like but after watching this team all year and seeing guys like Hill raped by backmen like Glass I can't see the harm in adding to our forward structure.

If you read my post, I said that Hall is a step up from Welsh and I would welcome his skill to our forward line, but to answer your question, no.

It wasn't just Hill that got 'raped' (as you so eloquently put it) ... and if you will forgive me re-using another stat, we were ranked 10th for goals against (the Saints were ranked 1st)

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

Scraggers

30-09-2009, 06:23 PM

What Hally will bring, not just the scoring goals part, but having a player of his ilk in the forward line, all of a sudden Joshy Hill isn't stuck one on one with the oppositions key defender, he also presents & gives our midfield a very good target, he doesn't need to win the Coleman or kick 80 plus to contribute, plus all those stats about how many goals he has kicked in the past few seasons, you can put alot of that down to the game style Sydney play and have played, and compare the amount of oportunities he will be given with our supply.

Unfortunatly when it comes to the bigger games, when our midfield is suffocated to a point of having a long option and not being allowed to pin point out smaller forwards, that can happen during the home & away against the weaker teams, they can pressure us for so long, but eventually get found out, the better teams won't allow that, playing Minson in that big forward role is a cop out for not having anyone else to create a contest or pluck a big grab when clearly he is just a ruckman, and a decent one at that, a true forward like Hall will know exactly where to run, and won't drop mark after mark.

So what will Barry Hall give us, a real forward that won't get pushed aside in contested situations, and has the height to contest with the better tall defenders.

I agree with a lot of what you (and Hujsh and Ozza) have said ... and I am not anti-Hall or the idea of a tall forward ... but to me, there are more important parts of our game that need strengthening before our forward line

Sockeye Salmon

30-09-2009, 06:57 PM

Clearly this is the problem ... a power forward is not going to change how many goals we have kicked against us; and seeing how we are already kicking more goals than any other side in the AFL, the discussion about the need for a power forward is moot.

Absolutely it will.

1. Hall will not get outmarked. If he doesn't mark it the ball will hit the ground, then it's up to our smaller guys to put enough pressure on so that it won't come back out in a hurry.

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).

I hate the way the media carry on about how good the St. Kilda backline are (and in previous years Sydney and Adelaide). It must be a cushy job being a defender when you have the other mob outnumbered. For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?

Rocco Jones

30-09-2009, 07:04 PM

Absolutely it will.

1. Hall will not get outmarked. If he doesn't mark it the ball will hit the ground, then it's up to our smaller guys to put enough pressure on so that it won't come back out in a hurry.

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).

Totally agree.

I have been saying that Hall will end up making us playing with a more defensive style. I find it amusing how fans attribute a sides for/against solely on his forwards/defenders. I think our backline is much stronger than our forward line but we play a more attacking style to compensate for the lack of a power forward. Our defence provides a lot more attack (Lake, Shaggy, Harbrow, Gilbee) than our forward line provides defensive pressure.

Hall will mean that our runners can spend more time back and our half forwards can spend more time pushing up the ground.

The Bulldogs Bite

30-09-2009, 07:06 PM

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

Finals is a different kettle of fish. We've been found out in '06, '08 and '09 despite the statistics. In the Home & Away season, there's a lot more time to spot up targets. There's much more space to lead into. Finals footy is very different - especially the deeper you go.

Make no mistake about it, if we had a solid KPF v St. Kilda we would have won by 4-5 goals. We dominated all other areas of the game but we simply didn't have a forward half capable of putting on the scoreboard pressure required.

I agree with a lot of what you (and Hujsh and Ozza) have said ... and I am not anti-Hall or the idea of a tall forward ... but to me, there are more important parts of our game that need strengthening before our forward line

As other posters have suggested, a lot will be taken care of once the forward half is. The midfield won't have to run specifically hard one way with the hope of providing options in the forward half themselves. We should be able to implement a far more defensive game plan with a player of Hall's calibre in the side. Instead of running primarily forward, we're in a better position to help out the backs. Setting up from kick-ins, preparing for turn overs etc. will all be helped by a forward structure that doesn't always rely on precise kicking.

There's no doubt we have other areas that need to be improved. Desperate for a quality CHB, an outside runner + a small forward.

Desipura

30-09-2009, 07:08 PM

For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?
Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

Sockeye Salmon

30-09-2009, 07:31 PM

Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

Harry O'Brien's on him.

azabob

30-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

Harry O'Brien's on him.

It also comes down to ability to read the play and when to peel off your man. Lake does this so well. He showed this ability time and again all year and most recently against the Saints when he peeled off Kosi and help out Morris against Rewoldt in one way or another.

Desipura

30-09-2009, 07:44 PM

Harry O'Brien's on him.
Are there more backman in Colingwood's backline then opposition forwards?
If so, why do the opposition not push an extra man forward to make Maxwell acountable?
If not, why is he not hurting Collingwood on the scoreboard?

azabob

30-09-2009, 07:45 PM

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).

I hate the way the media carry on about how good the St. Kilda backline are (and in previous years Sydney and Adelaide). It must be a cushy job being a defender when you have the other mob outnumbered. For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?

Eade has said publically that he and the coaching staff decided a few years back that they would teach our defenders how to play one on one, obviously with the above game plan in mind.

Sockeye Salmon

30-09-2009, 08:06 PM

Are there more backman in Colingwood's backline then opposition forwards?
If so, why do the opposition not push an extra man forward to make Maxwell acountable?
If not, why is he not hurting Collingwood on the scoreboard?

Well, yes.

St.Kilda also will try to do anything to get free blokes behind the ball.

They drop a bloke back, you man him up.
They drop another one back, you man him up.
They drop another one back ... you get the picture.

All you end up with is a crowded forward line at your end and a very open one at their end.

Sometimes you might try to have your extra man in the midfield so every time the extra bloke in their backline gets it he has to kick it back to you.

All thiese things have been tried, sometimes they work, sometime they don't. What it almost always does, though, is make defenders look better than they really are.

hujsh

30-09-2009, 08:11 PM

It wasn't just Hill that got 'raped' (as you so eloquently put it)

Hence why i said "guys like Hill" with Hill being the most prominent victim and the West Coast match being a prime example.

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

But aside from perhaps Williams the personel in our defensive half are all capable of playing their role. There isn't that much we can 'bolster' unless a good KP defender is on the market.

Also in the pressure of finals it hasn't been our defence that has let us down. In fact in 2008 they pretty much kept us in the game against Geelong.

mighty_west

30-09-2009, 08:27 PM

Also in the pressure of finals it hasn't been our defence that has let us down. In fact in 2008 they pretty much kept us in the game against Geelong.

Our pressure in the Prelim this year was sensational, and really, that has to be our standard, that is the bar we must set on a consistant basis to take that next step, if we do, all of a sudden, we stop the oppostion from scoring as much, that makes our defensive unit look alot better.

We missed alot of goals on the run, as we all know, i wonder how much of that was having worked so damn hard and having little petrol tickets left when taking those shots we normally kick with our eyes shut, having that power forward option can take alot of pressure off those guys.

The oppositons defenders are used to playing on tall OR power forwards, Johnno has been as much of a power forward as we have had, but lacked the height, so they won't have the extra loose "quality" defender to peel off, all of a sudden, with having Hall, Glass has to play tight on Hall and not zone off as much, i couldn't see Dawson taking Hall, so who from the Saints has to play tight on him? Scarlett also etc etc.

We all know how good Lake is when he is allowed to peel off and read the play, all of a sudden, oppositions won't have such luxuries against us as they have in the past.

bornadog

30-09-2009, 10:48 PM

Well, yes.

St.Kilda also will try to do anything to get free blokes behind the ball.

They drop a bloke back, you man him up.
They drop another one back, you man him up.
They drop another one back ... you get the picture.

All you end up with is a crowded forward line at your end and a very open one at their end.

Sometimes you might try to have your extra man in the midfield so every time the extra bloke in their backline gets it he has to kick it back to you.

All thiese things have been tried, sometimes they work, sometime they don't. What it almost always does, though, is make defenders look better than they really are.

The Saints tried that in the prelim but this time we beat them for the contested ball, clearances and total disposals as well as inside 50's, however, no tall target down there to help out, and when we did get the opportunity to kick for goal, we missed.

Desipura

01-10-2009, 09:10 AM

Well, yes.

St.Kilda also will try to do anything to get free blokes behind the ball.

They drop a bloke back, you man him up.
They drop another one back, you man him up.
They drop another one back ... you get the picture.

All you end up with is a crowded forward line at your end and a very open one at their end.

Sometimes you might try to have your extra man in the midfield so every time the extra bloke in their backline gets it he has to kick it back to you.

All thiese things have been tried, sometimes they work, sometime they don't. What it almost always does, though, is make defenders look better than they really are.
Too true and it means there are some free players around the ground generally in the midfield (as you have mentioned). This tactic has probably prolonged Eagletons career as he generally does not have an opponent.

LongWait

01-10-2009, 05:11 PM

Finals is a different kettle of fish. We've been found out in '06, '08 and '09 despite the statistics. In the Home & Away season, there's a lot more time to spot up targets. There's much more space to lead into. Finals footy is very different - especially the deeper you go.

Make no mistake about it, if we had a solid KPF v St. Kilda we would have won by 4-5 goals. We dominated all other areas of the game but we simply didn't have a forward half capable of putting on the scoreboard pressure required.

As other posters have suggested, a lot will be taken care of once the forward half is. The midfield won't have to run specifically hard one way with the hope of providing options in the forward half themselves. We should be able to implement a far more defensive game plan with a player of Hall's calibre in the side. Instead of running primarily forward, we're in a better position to help out the backs. Setting up from kick-ins, preparing for turn overs etc. will all be helped by a forward structure that doesn't always rely on precise kicking.

There's no doubt we have other areas that need to be improved. Desperate for a quality CHB, an outside runner + a small forward.

Agree with all of the above and especially the last part - thought I might have been alone in ranking our priorities like you have.