List management: Voss style

[The Adelaide Connection]

http://www.afl.com.au/tabid/208/default.aspx?newsid=86098

Wow, Vossy is going to start setting world records if he keeps trading/delisting like this: First a massive, aggressive trade week and now 12 delistings, seems like a massive cull.

Is there anyone there that we would look at? I would say Hooper if I wasn't such a loose unit and maybe McDonald (who I thought was a suprise).

For those that don't want to read the whole article:

"The Lions have delisted senior players Joel Macdonald, Scott Harding, Rhan Hooper, Jason Roe, Scott Clouston, Kieran King and Matthew Tyler, and rookies Daniel Dzufer, Pat Garner, Daniel Murray, Adam Spackman and Joel Tippett."

[The Adelaide Connection]

Oh...and I want to be the first to highlight the bucketloads of comical irony of them "losing patience with Hooper" and picking up Fev in almost the same breath (and stating in regrds to Fevola "we don't think there is a problem there"). Right.

[Doc26]

http://www.afl.com.au/tabid/208/default.aspx?newsid=86098

Wow, Vossy is going to start setting world records if he keeps trading/delisting like this: First a massive, aggressive trade week and now 12 delistings, seems like a massive cull.

Is there anyone there that we would look at? I would say Hooper if I wasn't such a loose unit and maybe McDonald (who I thought was a suprise).

For those that don't want to read the whole article:

"The Lions have delisted senior players Joel Macdonald, Scott Harding, Rhan Hooper, Jason Roe, Scott Clouston, Kieran King and Matthew Tyler, and rookies Daniel Dzufer, Pat Garner, Daniel Murray, Adam Spackman and Joel Tippett."

Macdonald surely still holds some currency. Pre Voss had a very solid '08. Certainly was a gun for me in SuperCoach :D

[LostDoggy]

Weird. It's not like these delistings give Vossy any more room in the national draft -- his first pick is at 27, then 47, then it goes into the stratospheric numbers of the 70s and 90s and 100s. Is he thinking he can pick up better talent at 124 and 140 than MacDonald and Roe?

Or is he gearing up for a MASSIVE pre-season draft of recycled players?

Strange times up in Brisvegas.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Weird. It's not like these delistings give Vossy any more room in the national draft -- his first pick is at 27, then 47, then it goes into the stratospheric numbers of the 70s and 90s and 100s. Is he thinking he can pick up better talent at 124 and 140 than MacDonald and Roe?

Or is he gearing up for a MASSIVE pre-season draft of recycled players?

Strange times up in Brisvegas.

My thoughts exactly. He has been very aggressive and shown that he is not about patience, he wants a cup NOW. Hooper has pissed all over the welcome mat quite a few times so is not a total shock, but the other two are a little baffling.

[Go_Dogs]

My thoughts exactly. He has been very aggressive and shown that he is not about patience, he wants a cup NOW. Hooper has pissed all over the welcome mat quite a few times so is not a total shock, but the other two are a little baffling.

Yep, very different/interesting strategy compared to anything and everything that has been tried before. They've got a lot of good cattle, and the majority of their inclusions will add to their mix. I guess Vossy and his team really didn't rate the draft this year and perhaps thought they were very close to a flag and some ready to go players would make the difference.

I think they may crash and burn, it can't be good for the group ripping it apart and piecing it back together with a bunch of new players, but who really knows how their dynamic works. I'm not sure on this, but I guess Vossy was around (or perhaps at least some of his ilk) when the Fitzroy merger happened, so perhaps because of that experience he isn't as scared of pulling major changes to the experienced side of his playing list.

Will be very interesting to see what happens...

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Not totally against big list changes but they have to make sense. There's no point turning over a list if you're filling it with a new bunch of average footballers.

IN: Raines, Staker
OUT: Roe, McDonald

Raines and Staker are arguably worse than Roe and McDonald. He's replacing Hooper with Buchanan and is adding Xaiver Clarke. The players he's traded in are no better (perhaps worse) than what he's trading out.

Fevola is a good pick-up, but they lost Henderson who could have developed into a solid CHB. He wants instant success but is going about it the wrong way IMO. I can understand a couple of changes, but trading/delisting hacks and then picking up a new bunch is pointless.

[Sedat]

Is he thinking he can pick up better talent at 124 and 140 than MacDonald and Roe?
I reckon you could pick up a better player at 1024 than Roe - truly the worst player in the entire competition that was getting regular AFL game time in 2009.

Macdonald is a bit of a vanilla half back. Not a complete spud by any stretch, but he doesn't have any great strengths that make you go WOW. Is a servicable player but no great loss to the Lions when you consider they have genuine weapons like Drummond that can do some damage off half back.

[LostDoggy]

Not totally against big list changes but they have to make sense. There's no point turning over a list if you're filling it with a new bunch of average footballers.

IN: Raines, Staker
OUT: Roe, McDonald

Raines and Staker are arguably worse than Roe and McDonald. He's replacing Hooper with Buchanan and is adding Xaiver Clarke. The players he's traded in are no better (perhaps worse) than what he's trading out.

Fevola is a good pick-up, but they lost Henderson who could have developed into a solid CHB. He wants instant success but is going about it the wrong way IMO. I can understand a couple of changes, but trading/delisting hacks and then picking up a new bunch is pointless.

He's going about it arse-backwards anyway. He's designed a gameplan and gotten some of the blokes to play it pretty well (they did play two finals this year). To take the next step, even in the short term, you want to ADD to the mid-range talent you have that is already one-year into your philosophy, but he's gone and done the classic rookie coach mistake of thinking that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, so he under-rates the quality of players on his list, and over-rates those from outside the club, so instead of reinventing or rejuvenating the guys on his list, he brings in guys that he thinks look better, or has heard of, but they're starting again from scratch.

To turnover 12+ spots (about 35%) of your list is a huge man-management task, and if he's trying to win stuff next year, he can forget it -- he'll be too busy just teaching them what the heck he's trying to say and get them to gel with the existing players. Won't be surprised if they actually miss the 8, to be honest. Transitions are a very difficult time.

If he had come into the Dogs when Rocket did, we would have lost Gilbee, Morris, Boyd, Gia and others.

[Twodogs]

Raines and Staker are arguably worse than Roe and McDonald.


You wouldnt have to spend too long on your argument. M
aybe 30 seconds max.

FWIW I reckon Vossy has gone the Ken Bruce path and I cant see it working. I dont see what he's attempting to do or why he thinks replacing half decent depth players with complete spuds is a half decent idea.


My own personal theory is that most of the assisants were let go and it must have been left up to Voss alone to make the calls. He probably needed someone with a little more experience to bounce these ideas off and then taken on board what that person had to say.

After buying the 9 network back for about half the money he sold it for Kerry Packer said that you only find one Alan Bond in your lifetime and I reckon that Rattan found his last week.

[Scorlibo]

They've made some seriously big mistakes here. Mixed messages all over the shop.

They had a very happening trade week in which they acquired Fevola plus a host of mid-tier players. They consequently lost Henderson and Dalziell, who would have been two important players going forward for them. It appeared they were having a 1-2 year flag tilt, but then this delisting news comes where they've got rid of players of equal standard as those acquired in trade week (as previously mentioned). To make matters even stranger, all these delistings have come before what is to be a very shallow draft, in which Brisbane hold no currency in higher picks. :confused:

[EasternWest]

I reckon you could pick up a better player at 1024 than Roe - truly the worst player in the entire competition that was getting regular AFL game time in 2009.
Macdonald is a bit of a vanilla half back. Not a complete spud by any stretch, but he doesn't have any great strengths that make you go WOW. Is a servicable player but no great loss to the Lions when you consider they have genuine weapons like Drummond that can do some damage off half back.

I reckon Raph Clarke might want to have words to you about giving his spot to someone else. When we play the Saints I pray that he gets the ball.

[Doc26]

Macdonald is a bit of a vanilla half back. Not a complete spud by any stretch, but he doesn't have any great strengths that make you go WOW. Is a servicable player but no great loss to the Lions when you consider they have genuine weapons like Drummond that can do some damage off half back.

Problem is that Josh appears as though he will forever battle with keeping his hamstrings together. Yes a genuine weapon but only when he's on the park.

[Swoop]

I reckon Raph Clarke might want to have words to you about giving his spot to someone else. When we play the Saints I pray that he gets the ball.
I think Raph cops a harsh wrap, he certainly stood up for the Saints against us in the last quarter when the game was on the line.

[Remi Moses]

Cat fans would have more confidence with Clarke in the side than Max Hudghton

[Remi Moses]

It's abit like what pagan did when he first got to Carlton. [although Pagan got stripped of early picks in fairness] Way to many fringe players for my liking,it seems it's either my way or the highway with Voss

[Doc26]

It's abit like what pagan did when he first got to Carlton. [although Pagan got stripped of early picks in fairness] Way to many fringe players for my liking,it seems it's either my way or the highway with Voss

Will be interesting to see whether Buckley takes a similar approach with the Pies list when he takes over from Mick.

[EasternWest]

I think Raph cops a harsh wrap, he certainly stood up for the Saints against us in the last quarter when the game was on the line.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. I think he's a dud.

[mjp]

Has he actually delisted anyone who is going to contribute in a premiership side?

I think 12 is 4 or 5 too many and would definitely keep someone like MacDonald for depth...but he did try to trade him and there were no takers, so maybe that is where he is at?

All that said, I guess 5 of the delistings are rookies anyway so it is probably not as big a deal as the headlines make out.

[Go_Dogs]

I think Raph cops a harsh wrap, he certainly stood up for the Saints against us in the last quarter when the game was on the line.

Yeah, 3 contested marks and I'm still wondering how...

[Cyberdoggie]

Yeah, 3 contested marks and I'm still wondering how...

Were any of them over Nathan Eagleton?.....:p

[Topdog]

Has he actually delisted anyone who is going to contribute in a premiership side?

I think 12 is 4 or 5 too many and would definitely keep someone like MacDonald for depth...but he did try to trade him and there were no takers, so maybe that is where he is at?

All that said, I guess 5 of the delistings are rookies anyway so it is probably not as big a deal as the headlines make out.

What does it say about the list though when you delist a guy who played in 22 games this year?

[mighty_west]

It is certaintly going to be interesting to see if Fev, Brown AND Bradshaw can all fit in the same forward line, Bradshaw going back is the obvious one, so on paper, it looks a good deal, Brown & Bradshaw have worked in the past, Brown usually works a bit further out anyway, which should be ideal for Fev, so there is no real reason why this set up shouldn't work, and having Brown's leadership around him at all times, could be what Fev needs, whilst Judd is a brilliant footballer, not too sure i rate his leadership skills as high.

Voss is obviously thinking, with players such as Simon Black, Jono Brown, Luke Power, even Bradshaw, all still playing super footy, how well Bradshaws body can hold is a key, Vossy must be thinking let's give it a real shake with these players and not just let them play out their careers whilst the younger kids develop.

The emergence of Mitch Clark as a ruckman, had a super season if you consider he had to take on that role pretty much on his own, IF Charman can come back & Leuenberger as well, then they could play Clark anywhere on the ground really, but that is a massive if especially with Charman.

Getting Staker in is an interesting one, i just wonder how he would go having 2 genuine gun forwards playing alongside him, he's never has that luxury as a player at West Coast and Buchanon can slot in nicely as a small forward.

For mine, everything has to go well injury wise for them, if that is the case, then who knows, but if they lose a few important players, i'm not too sure they have the same depth other higher sides have.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Culturally its an interesting move from Voss

Wonder how the players feel about Rischitelli & Bradshaw being offered up, and so many players from other clubs coming in

And the talk of Bradshaw walking now that Fevola has been recruited is also interesting

[sticks]

Maybe vossy had to make room in the salary cap for Fev.

[Go_Dogs]

And the talk of Bradshaw walking now that Fevola has been recruited is also interesting

I think it has been pretty much confirmed that he has walked now. Will be interesting to see who will offer him 3 years.

[ledge]

The hard thing to understand is its going to be a shallow draft apparently, so how many players is he going to pick up that are better than the ones he has given the big A?
If you look at where they finished on the ladder its not like they are going to get high picks either.

[LostDoggy]

This thread has been mostly very critical of Voss and on the face of it that would seem correct. However, were Brisbane to secure Ball would that make much difference to peoples thoughts? I think his acquisition would balance the ledger somewhat and turn them into a reasonable threat to our premiership challenge.

Just an thought, I would be moire than happy to be shot down on this one.

[strebla]

I go back to what my dad told me as a child Marcov a champion team will always beat a team of champions.I think Voss's bastardising of his list with or without Ball will bite hime on the bum.I Don't believe someone wavering should I stay or should I go will stay either which will hurt the club for years to come!!

[Topdog]

This thread has been mostly very critical of Voss and on the face of it that would seem correct. However, were Brisbane to secure Ball would that make much difference to peoples thoughts? I think his acquisition would balance the ledger somewhat and turn them into a reasonable threat to our premiership challenge.

Just an thought, I would be moire than happy to be shot down on this one.

With Ball they improve, not enough to be premiership contenders. However that doesn't make their trading any better or worse as that is a stroke of luck. Still they have lost Bradshaw now.

[BulldogBelle]

We will all know if Brisbane have made the correct choice at about round 11. If their 7-4, it will be a stroke of genious - 2-9.......???

[Doc26]

Unlike Fev., I can't say I'm too troubled by the thought of having to match up against Luke Ball these days. Apologies to any Luke Ball fans but i feel the game has passed him by with his lack of leg speed and average disposal and Rossy Lyon realised that. At best now a good foil or second stringer / backup. Would kind of complete Vossy's lateral trading though if he was to become a Lion.

[jazzadogs]

Unlike Fev., I can't say I'm too troubled by the thought of having to match up against Luke Ball these days. Apologies to any Luke Ball fans but i feel the game has passed him by with his lack of leg speed and average disposal and Rossy Lyon realised that. At best now a good foil or second stringer / backup. Would kind of complete Vossy's lateral trading though if he was to become a Lion.
If Luke Ball becomes a Lion, it has absolutely nothing to do with Voss' trading methods. As someone before said, it is just luck.

Luke Ball is not the kind of player you 'fear' playing against. He's not a game breaker. He's like a Matthew Boyd...opposition supporters would never say "oh gawsh, I don't want to play the Bulldogs, they have Matthew Boyd!!". They'd say "oh gawsh, I don't want to play the Bulldogs, they have Cooney/Johnson/Hall/Lake etc."

Ball's grand final, when you look at the amount of time he was on the field, was outstanding. If he is given a larger amount of game time he will flourish. He's not going to win the Brownlow, but he will be more than servicable to whichever team picks him up.

[Sedat]

Ball's grand final, when you look at the amount of time he was on the field, was outstanding. If he is given a larger amount of game time he will flourish. He's not going to win the Brownlow, but he will be more than servicable to whichever team picks him up.
Ball had a good GF because it was wet - he's become the biggest wet weather specialist since Tony Woods was running around in the AFL. He simply cannot get to multiple contests because he does not have the mobility nor the tank to do so. And he lacks penetration with his disposal. The Matthew Boyd comparison is interesting - I would say Boydy has far more weapons as a player than Luke Ball.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Ball had a good GF because it was wet - he's become the biggest wet weather specialist since Tony Woods was running around in the AFL. He simply cannot get to multiple contests because he does not have the mobility nor the tank to do so. And he lacks penetration with his disposal. The Matthew Boyd comparison is interesting - I would say Boydy has far more weapons as a player than Luke Ball.

Ditto. No contest. I think you would find clubs put time into trying to curb Boyd's influences around the stoppages. He's dynamic with his strength, hands and vision. His skills are usually solid and he picks up plenty of possessions. He can play shut down roles effectively too.

Ball has always been incredibly overrated because of the whole 'superdraft' vibe. He's always been a horrible kick, very slow and lacking endurance. His only strength is his courage and continual fight for the ball in the immediate area.

Really though, Ball is an average player.

[Topdog]

We will all know if Brisbane have made the correct choice at about round 11. If their 7-4, it will be a stroke of genious - 2-9.......???

So if they have 1 more win than this year it will be genius?

They were 6 and 5 after 11 this year and they should be around that mark next year.