Minson's immediate future?

[Dry Rot]

Barring injuries and Street going OK, what is Will Minson's immediate future?

His ruckwork is ordinary, fitness doesn't look flash and his work around the ground not good. Seems to have gone backwards this year.

How does he get back into the team? Does he need to show he can play as a forward? (Hasn't so far)

[LostDoggy]

Ruck is still the go for Minson.
Sorry DR, it sounds like you and a number of others have written Minson off and anointed Peter Street as the saviour.
One half reasonable game against an out of form ruck doesn't make a career.
I still have more confidence in Minson 'making it' rather than Street, if either of them 'make it' at all.

[southerncross]

Spot on Ernie. Minson is just down on form at the moment but with a bit of hard work at the Bees he will be in the mix to return to the senior team.

[Dry Rot]

Never understood why a lot of people thought that Minson is a good ruckman (now - as aside from the future).

Maybe our problem is that we have an ordinary ruckman trapped in a KPP's body (Skipper) and an ordinary KPP trapped in a ruckman's body (Minson).

[Go_Dogs]

Ruck is still the go for Minson.
Sorry DR, it sounds like you and a number of others have written Minson off and anointed Peter Street as the saviour.
One half reasonable game against an out of form ruck doesn't make a career.
I still have more confidence in Minson 'making it' rather than Street, if either of them 'make it' at all.

Long term, I agree. I think Minson should use this time to add another tool to his belt - an ability to go forward or go back and take contested marks and influence the game. He's got a LOT more upside than any other ruck on our list, and will be back. He'll have to be patient though.

[GVGjr]

Long term, I agree. I think Minson should use this time to add another tool to his belt - an ability to go forward or go back and take contested marks and influence the game. He's got a LOT more upside than any other ruck on our list, and will be back. He'll have to be patient though.


Minson playing at the Bees for a couple of weeks should not be looked on as a negative but more a chance to improve his game.

[LostDoggy]

Would Sunday's result have been different had Minson been playing?

[GVGjr]

Would Sunday's result have been different had Minson been playing?


Who knows, but I thought Street performed OK and Darcy in the ruck also lifted the team.

[LostDoggy]

Who knows, but I thought Street performed OK and Darcy in the ruck also lifted the team.
Yes I thought Street performed well and Darcy had a good game. We seemed to get the ball out of the middle better during this game than in the previous games. I am assuming that this was due to Street's impact.

I am a big fan of Minson's - reckon he's young, enthusiatic and intelligent and will be a great ruckman for us over time. Would love to know what Eade thinks about our ruck stocks.

[mjp]

Immediate future? Go and play some VFL football. Play better. Attack the ball. Play better. Go for marks. Play better. Improve second efforts. Play better. Be ready for his chance when it comes.

[bornadog]

William Minson
Fast Facts
Jumper No: 27
Height: 199cm
Weight: 103kg
DOB: 1985-04-11
Recruited From: Norwood (SA)
Career Matches: 35
Career Goals: 13
2007 Home & Away Totals
Matches: 6
Goals: 0
Marks: 8
Disposals: 48
Kicks: 26

He has played less than 50 games, still has plenty of improvement. If you look at the recruits before him, such as GIA, Murphy, McMahon, etc etc, they are just playing 100 games now and probably strted to be more consistent from 50 plus games. Once Minson gets up to around 75 games plus then we can have a better view of where he is heading.

[1eyedog]

William Minson
Fast Facts
Jumper No: 27
Height: 199cm
Weight: 103kg
DOB: 1985-04-11
Recruited From: Norwood (SA)
Career Matches: 35
Career Goals: 13
2007 Home & Away Totals
Matches: 6
Goals: 0
Marks: 8
Disposals: 48
Kicks: 26

He has played less than 50 games, still has plenty of improvement. If you look at the recruits before him, such as GIA, Murphy, McMahon, etc etc, they are just playing 100 games now and probably strted to be more consistent from 50 plus games. Once Minson gets up to around 75 games plus then we can have a better view of where he is heading.

Okay BD so he is well and truly there now. Given that he currently cannot break into the team, and Roughhead was picked last week and that Will doesn't seem a likely in against the Bombers, where is his career at?

[bornadog]

Okay BD so he is well and truly there now. Given that he currently cannot break into the team, and Roughhead was picked last week and that Will doesn't seem a likely in against the Bombers, where is his career at?

Thanks for bringing up this old thread:D

I still see him as the number one ruck from next year. I think Huddo's age is against him and Roughead is not ready to be number one.

[Desipura]

There lies the problem, Minson has not had massive improvement since this first post. He has been in the system some 7 years and unfotunately the graph has not spiralled upwards.

[LostDoggy]

There lies the problem, Minson has not had massive improvement since this first post. He has been in the system some 7 years and unfotunately the graph has not spiralled upwards.

Does he need massive improvement to keep his spot? Not really.

[1eyedog]

Thanks for bringing up this old thread:D

I still see him as the number one ruck from next year. I think Huddo's age is against him and Roughead is not ready to be number one.

You would expect him to play against Essendon then and for the rest of the season?

[LostDoggy]

Will be our number 1 ruckman next year.

Love Huddo but the bloke can't even jump anymore.

Worth FAR more to us than if we were to trade him.

[Rocco Jones]

Will be our number 1 ruckman next year.

Love Huddo but the bloke can't even jump anymore.

Worth FAR more to us than if we were to trade him.

I would prefer us to give Roughead a crack at the number 1 job but as you say, Hudson is gone and we need Minson as a back up for our young rucks at the very least.

[Mantis]

Will be our number 1 ruckman next year.

Love Huddo but the bloke can't even jump anymore.

Worth FAR more to us than if we were to trade him.

Isn't that dependent upon what other clubs offer up?

[Desipura]

Richmond are after a ruckman, guess who has historically played well against them...Minson.

[1eyedog]

Richmond are after a ruckman, guess who has historically played well against them...Minson.

Hawthorn are too.

[LostDoggy]

Isn't that dependent upon what other clubs offer up?

What do you think he'll be worth on the open market Mantis? If we have a realistic appraisal, we could see if a club's offering overs or unders and compare it to what else is available for trade or via the draft and weigh up the cost vs. benefit of the trade, and see whether Minnow is worth more to us than his market rate.

[Mantis]

What do you think he'll be worth on the open market Mantis? If we have a realistic appraisal, we could see if a club's offering overs or unders and compare it to what else is available for trade or via the draft and weigh up the cost vs. benefit of the trade, and see whether Minnow is worth more to us than his market rate.

As previously stated it's all dependent upon what someone is willing to pay.

Was Jordan McMahon worth pick 19? NO... Well yes. ;)

Was Shaun Burgoyne worth two 1st rounders? NO.

Was Cameron Wood worth pick 14? NO.

You see where I'm going.....

Also clubs pay overs all the time for ruckman so if we were to get anything less than a top 25 pick or perhaps 2 picks under 50 I would say no thanks.

[strebla]

If we trade Minson do we keep Hudson for one more year or go with the kids.If the beard goes this year I would keep Minson for at least one more year.

[SlimPickens]

If we trade Minson do we keep Hudson for one more year or go with the kids.If the beard goes this year I would keep Minson for at least one more year.

Agree with this, i wouldn't be trading Minson if Hudson retires or gets the tap on the shoulder. That being said if we float him on the market and someone bits with a very good deal, i'd take a serious look.

Richmond, Hawthorn and PA all need ruckmen so you never no.

[Mantis]

If we trade Minson do we keep Hudson for one more year or go with the kids. If the beard goes this year I would keep Minson for at least one more year.

I think the Beard is just about done so as suggested we will probably need to keep Will for one more year (he is contracted) as the kids probably won't be ready just yet, but if a good offer is made on Will we will have to give it some serious thought.

[strebla]

I think the Beard is just about done so as suggested we will probably need to keep Will for one more year (he is contracted) as the kids probably won't be ready just yet, but if a good offer is made on Will we will have to give it some serious thought.

Absolutely just not sure the kids are ready foe 22 games maybe talk to the beard and see how the trade period goes as I can't see anything better out there than him anyhow!!! He may be happy with ten or twlve games and allow Roghie time to adapt to the lead rucking role???

[1eyedog]

I think the Beard is just about done so as suggested we will probably need to keep Will for one more year (he is contracted) as the kids probably won't be ready just yet, but if a good offer is made on Will we will have to give it some serious thought.


I know he has had injuries and been out of form but Roughhead should have played more this year in the place of Grant. He should have played forward/ruck forward to give Huddo a chop out and also give him some more experience at the coal face. This would have fast tracked his development and may have put him in a better position to at least be competitive in the ruck next year. This would have given us some trading flexiblity with regard to our options with Will.

As it was we persisited week after week with Grant and now we will need Will to ruck next year because of it.

[strebla]

I know he has had injuries and been out of form but Roughhead should have played more this year in the place of Grant. He should have played forward/ruck forward to give Huddo a chop out and also give him some more experience at the coal face. This would have fast tracked his development and may have put him in a better position to at least be competitive in the ruck next year. This would have given us some trading flexiblity with regard to our options with Will.

As it was we persisited week after week with Grant and now we will need Will to ruck next year because of it.

I think Will has real currency at the trade table and would be willing to play Huddo in melbourne games only and only up to 12 games to keep him and Roughie fresh I rate Minson and would hate to lose him for nothing in 2013 to free agency!!!

[Mantis]

I know he has had injuries and been out of form but Roughhead should have played more this year in the place of Grant. He should have played forward/ruck forward to give Huddo a chop out and also give him some more experience at the coal face. This would have fast tracked his development and may have put him in a better position to at least be competitive in the ruck next year. This would have given us some trading flexiblity with regard to our options with Will.

As it was we persisited week after week with Grant and now we will need Will to ruck next year because of it.

Roughead has played as many games as he should this year, his form hasn't been up to scratch and has looked out of his depth against AFL standard players. It's all good and well to be giving games to youngsters for their development, but you simply don't give them away.

And hasn't Grant been playing to fast track his development for when Hall retires?

[1eyedog]

Roughead has played as many games as he should this year, his form hasn't been up to scratch and has looked out of his depth against AFL standard players. It's all good and well to be giving games to youngsters for their development, but you simply don't give them away.

And hasn't Grant been playing to fast track his development for when Hall retires?

Fair enough on Grant in one respect, but he has also looked out of his depth against AFL players as well and has got regular games. I would have prefered to go short next year with Gia and perhaps Higgins inside F50 when he has a full preseason under his belt and play Jones at CHF and Lake as occasional FF, rather than have wasted this year persisting with Grant.

Along with a quality CHF ruck is the hardest position to fill and is different to every other position, so Roughhead is different than Grant. Young rucks need as muchy development as they can get and if you have a likely one you need to fast- track them, even if they are out of form. My feeling on young rucks is that they are not really out of form, they have just not developed enough to be consistent week to week. The only way to correct this IMO is to play them.

That's why I think Roughhead should have been played more in place of Grant.

[1eyedog]

Well it's time to bump this thread.

Interestingly I made the last post back in August 2011. Not sure how I feel about that post or what I was actually trying to say in it, but it seems, in relation to young ruckman, I was saying that they need to be played in order to improve, regardless of inconsistency. The same can be said about all positions, but if you ascribe to the adage of tall guys take longer, then this is especially true of ruckmen. Which brings me to my next point.

We've played Cordy consistently now and while he has been beaten in ruck work all year, he seems to be improving his output around the ground. So, where does this leave Minson? I don't know what the relationship with Bevo is like but a pretty deep understanding needs to have developed pretty quickly over the past 6 months for Will not be be considering offers elsewhere. It would be naive to think that rival clubs have not already made contact / offers to his management. He has not been out of form or injured and I can't see him coming into the side until at least half way through the season, that's half a season of not playing AFL football for a guy who was AA in 2013 and probably only has 2-3 playing years left.

I had a pub chat after work last night with a few Carlton supporters and they said they would be very interested in having him, even on the back of the Jones / Tutt trade, they all think that Minson is a different kettle of fish and can mentor / replace Wood. I suggested that Eade would be interested in him to mentor Nicholls for two years, perhaps Melbourne too. Will was loyal at the end of last year, he spoke out positively on behalf of the club and, while there was speculation he was unhappy, knuckled down and went through another preseason.

So what's your thoughts on him, will he be at the club next year and are you disappointed we haven't played him so far? Are we also disappointed we didn't seek a trade for him at the end of his AA year when he held far higher collateral?

[Remi Moses]

Would Minson be that popular as a recruiting target?
Cordy offers more around the ground, but is hopeless at contests.
Will offers more at contests, but nothing else.
I think he's done at seasons end

[Remi Moses]

I'm glad we're not playing him, and yes I would have traded him after his AA year.
His ceiling was never going to be any higher than it was then.
Remember putting up pick 4 and Will for pick 1.

[G-Mo77]

Would Minson be that popular as a recruiting target?
Cordy offers more around the ground, but is hopeless at contests.
Will offers more at contests, but nothing else.
I think he's done at seasons end

We're going to mold them together at seasons end.

Yeah Will's gone I'd guess. Unless something happens between now and the end of year I can't see him staying around for another season. We really should have invested more in Campbell and Cordy over the past 3 seasons and probably moved Will on. All good in hindsight though.

[bulldogtragic]

If Carlton wanted him then that could work. Will would be on good coin. So Will goes to Carlton for a pick around 35. Kruezer comes to us as a FA. Minson's salary covers Kruezer's new salary with us. Carlton get pick 2 compensation. Carlton cover the loss of Kruezer. We get a ruckman who can play forward.

Win-win?

[Happy Days]

If Carlton wanted him then that could work. Will would be on good coin. So Will goes to Carlton for a pick around 35. Kruezer comes to us as a FA. Minson's salary covers Kruezer's new salary with us. Carlton get pick 2 compensation. Carlton cover the loss of Kruezer. We get a ruckman who can play forward.

Win-win?

Minson for Kruezer and 35?

I'd take it but I don't think the Blues would, compensation or no.

[bulldogtragic]

Minson for Kruezer and 35?

I'd take it but I don't think the Blues would, compensation or no.

Kruezer can walk as a free agent who can go to any club, and I reckon he will. It's more so Kruezer may like seeing a team with ruck depth issues with Minson going and like the salary we could offer. With Kruezer gone Minson is miles their best ruckman and gets games each week.

The real value is Minson (and pick 2 via the AFL) for pick 35 (and Kruezer via the AFL). That must tempt them and Kruezer.

[Happy Days]

Kruezer can walk as a free agent who can go to any club, and I reckon he will. It's more so Kruezer may like seeing a team with ruck depth issues with Minson going and like the salary we could offer. With Kruezer gone Minson is miles their best ruckman and gets games each week.

The real value is Minson (and pick 2 via the AFL) for pick 35 (and Kruezer via the AFL). That must tempt them and Kruezer.

I thought you were going totally Veale Deal on us.

That...could work but I don't think the Blues have a chance of band 2 compensation for Kreuzer.

[LostDoggy]

Whatever happens, it would be refreshing if we at least knew where he stood. Footy clubs need to keep certain things in house, sure, but in this instance I'd appreciate a little bit of info on why Minson seems to be suddenly be persona non grata.

Perhaps JMac and co already have a replacement lined up and hence are getting games into Cordy? If so, is it possible we've already had a ruckman give us the handshake?

[bulldogtragic]

I thought you were going totally Veale Deal on us.

That...could work but I don't think the Blues have a chance of band 2 compensation for Kreuzer.

I think an offer of 4 years and $450,000+ would get them the same band compo as Frawley got Melbourne, which happens to be pick 2 if they bottom out completely. But the onus is on the club who Kruezer might want to go to offer up a juicy contract. I reckon Minson would be on that salary, and I think Kruezer is worth it if our doctor's clear him. But i think it's an interesting hypothetical where everyone is right now.

[Remi Moses]

Whatever happens, it would be refreshing if we at least knew where he stood. Footy clubs need to keep certain things in house, sure, but in this instance I'd appreciate a little bit of info on why Minson seems to be suddenly be persona non grata.

Perhaps JMac and co already have a replacement lined up and hence are getting games into Cordy? If so, is it possible we've already had a ruckman give us the handshake?
If the MC had to justify every team selection we'd be there for hours .
I think it's obvious it's will's lack of ground cover that's hurting him.

[LostDoggy]

If the MC had to justify every team selection we'd be there for hours .
I think it's obvious it's will's lack of ground cover that's hurting him.

I don't want them to justify every team selection. It'd just be nice to know where Will stood in the club's approximation of his value to us in the years ahead. At the moment we are totally in the dark.

[F'scary]

I still have a feeling that Minson could play a really big part in our season. The scenario: he gets re-introduced to the firsts in the second half of the season when our campaign is in the balance and some of our mainstays are tired, injured or being covered by the opposition. He is fresh, his impact on results at stoppages (ball ins, ball ups, centre bounces) is immediate and gives us a new string to the bow at just the right time.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting watching Geelong play in that their ruck division is Blicavs and Stanley.
Seems a sign of the times of the modern mobile ruckman

[Remi Moses]

I don't want them to justify every team selection. It'd just be nice to know where Will stood in the club's approximation of his value to us in the years ahead. At the moment we are totally in the dark.

Reading between the lines it's his lack of mobility .
I'd say he ain't going to get quicker, so the future is bleak
Will's had one very good year in a long career

[westdog54]

If Carlton wanted him then that could work. Will would be on good coin. So Will goes to Carlton for a pick around 35. Kruezer comes to us as a FA. Minson's salary covers Kruezer's new salary with us. Carlton get pick 2 compensation. Carlton cover the loss of Kruezer. We get a ruckman who can play forward.

Win-win?

Why do Carlton cough up Pick 35 when Will is a FA himself?

[bulldogtragic]

Why do Carlton cough up Pick 35 when Will is a FA himself?

If Kruezer leaves and they take any free agents in then their compensation gets dropped a banding for a player like Minnow when the AFL aggregate compo. So pick 2 compo might become pick 19 maybe, so a trade of some small amount means they have a higher FA pick. Working the system, the pick could be 45, their 3rd rounder even.

[Rocco Jones]

We will not get pick 35 or 45 for a 31 year old we don't even want. We will get nothing for Will.

[Rocco Jones]

At best we will receive lets avoid the PSD crap token pick 65 or so for him.

[bulldogtragic]

At best we will receive lets avoid the PSD crap token pick 65 or so for him.

Fair enough, the hyperthetical was more around the moving of Minson & Kruezer if we made him an offer that gave Carlton top level compo and Minson. Pick 35 or 65. Would we offer years & dollars, and would they let a potentially very good player to go?

[Remi Moses]

They wouldn't take Will
They'll finally relent and move into the modern football world of rebuilding
:eek:

[AndrewP6]

I'd say he'll be gone. I'm intrigued/nervous as to the MC's plans for the ruck, and/or whether JMac has someone in his sights to pick up. If Minno goes and we don't have another option, Ayce is #1 ruck and Soup is #2. That is not something I look forward to seeing on an ongoing basis.

[hujsh]

If Kruezer leaves and they take any free agents in then their compensation gets dropped a banding for a player like Minnow when the AFL aggregate compo. So pick 2 compo might become pick 19 maybe, so a trade of some small amount means they have a higher FA pick. Working the system, the pick could be 45, their 3rd rounder even.

Would this give us any leverage in a deal with Carlton? Why would we take pick 65 if they wanted Will and it meant they get pick 2? Pick 35 or so is a price you'd pay for pick 2 (any higher and they'd probably just forget Minson all together).

Or could he just go PSD and avoid the whole thing?

[Bulldog Joe]

Why do Carlton cough up Pick 35 when Will is a FA himself?

Isn't Will contracted to end of 2016.
Free agent next year but likely to be traded a year earlier.

[bulldogtragic]

Would this give us any leverage in a deal with Carlton? Why would we take pick 65 if they wanted Will and it meant they get pick 2? Pick 35 or so is a price you'd pay for pick 2 (any higher and they'd probably just forget Minson all together).

Or could he just go PSD and avoid the whole thing?

If he's under contract it needs to be trade. But if not, yes he could walk to them in the PSD and that wouldn't affect their compo. With pick one they should still trade to keep their options open if a a good player slips there. Which is why I think it needs to be a trade, it depends how hard the club went in swinging. Alternatively, we could do an easy type Lake deal and take an upgrade in picks which again wouldn't impact their compo.

[bulldogtragic]

Isn't Will contracted to end of 2016.
Free agent next year but likely to be traded a year earlier.

I'm pretty certain he is.

[GVGjr]

There is a lot of speculation here about Will going to Carlton but it won't happen. A new coach can't bring in older players to a non contending team.

[LostDoggy]

Id be highly surprised if a rebuilding club like carlton picked up a 31 year old ruckman who offers no more around the ground then Wood or Warnock. I say be realistic about it,who is going to want to want Minson who is being kept out of the side by Cordy.

[chef]

There is a lot of speculation here about Will going to Carlton but it won't happen. A new coach can't bring in older players to a non contending team.

Plus they already have 3 dinosaur rucks, why would they need another?

[Rocco Jones]

It's funny how a player's value sharply rises in the eyes of fans when he goes from them wanting to dump him to figuring out his exchange value.

I am less into Kruezer and more into a couple of blokes playing second ruck at clubs who are near the bottom of the ladder. Leunberger and Hickey are 1st ruck types but have to play a different role. I would be asking them if they would be keen to play in their preferred role for a better team.

[1eyedog]

There is a lot of speculation here about Will going to Carlton but it won't happen. A new coach can't bring in older players to a non contending team.

You mean like Heath Shaw going to GWS or Malceski going to GCS?

[GVGjr]

You mean like Heath Shaw going to GWS or Malceski going to GCS?

You've actually answered/acknowledged the question by posing two of your own but I'll try and make it a lot clearer. Carlton are a non contending side with an old list so how does adding Minson help a new coach clear the books and build a list? The new coach would be better to take the hit for another season or two.

GC would have seen themselves as a contending side at the start of the season and had a young list so adding Malceski made sense to them.
GWS have an even younger list so Shaw and Griffen makes sense to them.

Would adding Minson really make sense to Carlton who have now admitted now they have acknowledged they are rebuilding?

[1eyedog]

You've actually answered/acknowledged the question by posing two of your own but I'll try and make it a lot clearer. Carlton are a non contending side with an old list so how does adding Minson help a new coach clear the books and build a list? The new coach would be better to take the hit for another season or two.

GC would have seen themselves as a contending side at the start of the season and had a young list so adding Malceski made sense to them.
GWS have an even younger list so Shaw and Griffen makes sense to them.

Would adding Minson really make sense to Carlton who have now admitted now they have acknowledged they are rebuilding?

I don't agree GVGjr. I appreciate that Carlton are rebuilding and that they are behind GWS, whether they are behind GCS is debatable.

I see the definition of young list and contending a bit of an oxymoron, contending for what top 8? At the start of the season almost every media agency had Carlton finishing above GWS and thereabouts with GCS. Will GWS play in a Grand Final before Mumford (28), Shaw (29), Griffen (29), Patful (30) retire? No-one named in Carlton's backline on Friday night is anywhere near 30. The oldest is fringe player Sam Rowe at 27 who will make way for Jacksch. The rest are 23-25. That's 6. Foward line is far younger than their backs and rivals GWS / GCS with Armfield, Bell, Tutt, Menzel, Jones, Cripps all young players. Even Gibbs is only 26, Murphy 27. Sure their midfield is aging (Judd, Carazzo, Simpson), but their ages really skew data against just how, not so young, Carlton's list really is. Carazzo will retire this year.

Both GWS and GCS have a core group of young players 2 years younger than Carlton's but they have a number of top up 26+ year olds as well. I don't think Minson going to Carlton (especially when you consider Jacksch and Docherty still need to come into the side that played on Friday night) is high risk because of Carlton's 'old list'. Minson is a better option than Wood and Warnock and they could do far worse bringing an experienced clearance player into their team. I think their experienced mids would benefit from a Minson-type player. They need to rebuild, sure, clear out the Warnocks, Carazzos but they need to be competitive for their members and sponsors too.

Make no mistake either, Carlton and it's fans (and some media pundits) are shocked by this season's performances, they suspected they were a shot at the 8, just like GWS and GCS were.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't agree GVGjr. I appreciate that Carlton are rebuilding and that they are behind GWS, whether they are behind GCS is debatable.

I see the definition of young list and contending a bit of an oxymoron, contending for what top 8? No-one named in Carlton's backline on Friday night is anywhere near 30. The oldest is Sam Rowe at 27. The rest are 23-25. That's 6. Foward line is far younger than their backs and rivals GWS / GCS with Armfield, Tutt, Menzel, Jones, Cripps all young players. Even Gibbs is only 26, Murphy 27. Sure their midfield is aging (Judd, Carazzo, Simpson), but their ages really skew data against just how, not so young, Carlton's list really is. Carazzo will retire this year.

Do you really think the team Carlton played on Friday night is 'an old list?' Both GWS and GCS have a core group of young players 2 years younger than Carlton's but they have a number of top up 26+ year olds as well. I don't think Minson going to Carlton (especially when you consider Jacksch and Docherty still need to come into the side that played on Friday night) is high risk because of Carlton's 'old list'.

Make no mistake either, Carlton and it's fans (and some media pundits) are shocked by this season's performances, they suspected they were a shot at the 8, just like GWS and GCS were.

Armfield is 28 and ordinary, Docherty did play last night, Jaksch doesn't even look VFL quality at this stage. Less said about Whiley, Boekurst (sp?) the better.

Their only good young players are Cripps, Docherty, Bell and Menzel.

Players lucky to even be on a list include Tutt, Tuohy, Everitt, Armfield, Warnock, Jones and Wood who all played last night. Thomas is a very average footballer now, Casboult is much the same whilst White and Curnow are battlers.

It would be absolutely idiotic for them to go and get Minson. It serves no purpose whatsoever. They need to trade Gibbs for early picks and probably Yarran too, head to the draft, and literally build a list from ground zero.

They should look at how St. Kilda have rebuilt their list. They have a long way to go but the Saints have done a solid job in a short space of time to become competitive. They didn't do that by getting Jolly or other old players, they did it by clearing out Goddard/Dal Santo/McEvoy and drafting/trading well.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

FWIW I can't see too many teams being interested in Minson.

Essendon - Perhaps the best fit, given Bellchambers is better in the second ruck role and Giles injured/no good?
Gold Coast - Dependent on if they're prepared to take another older player after their horrific season. Smith and Nicholls regularly get dominated.
Richmond - Maric is really their only option. Hampson is terrible. They could get Minson as cover for Ivan, but not sure Minson would leave for a club where he's still only going to be second in line.

[1eyedog]

Armfield is 28 and ordinary, Docherty did play last night, Jaksch doesn't even look VFL quality at this stage. Less said about Whiley, Boekurst (sp?) the better.

Their only good young players are Cripps, Docherty, Bell and Menzel.

Players lucky to even be on a list include Tutt, Tuohy, Everitt, Armfield, Warnock, Jones and Wood who all played last night. Thomas is a very average footballer now, Casboult is much the same whilst White and Curnow are battlers.

It would be absolutely idiotic for them to go and get Minson. It serves no purpose whatsoever. They need to trade Gibbs for early picks and probably Yarran too, head to the draft, and literally build a list from ground zero.

They should look at how St. Kilda have rebuilt their list. They have a long way to go but the Saints have done a solid job in a short space of time to become competitive. They didn't do that by getting Jolly or other old players, they did it by clearing out Goddard/Dal Santo/McEvoy and drafting/trading well.

Should, but Carlton have never done that and never will, probably why they haven't been top 4 in recent memory. They'll go after Minson and that is the point of the argument. What they should do and will do are bipolar IMO. Perhaps SOS' list overhaul will take them to a new frontier but I don't hold out much hope when I see today's article popping up in front of me stating that Gibbs, Murphy are off the trade table. They'll hope their young players come on sooner than expected, try to top up with the best talent available (as they did this year) and squeeze the last ounce of talent out of Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson and Judd hoping they make the top 8 in the next 2 years to sate the masses. It's what they've always done. Carlton are a once big club who have made disastrous list management and football department decisions that have sent them to an ugly place that accepts mediocrity internally and is fast becoming insignificant externally.

[Remi Moses]

What they say and what happens are totally different .
If Carlton are going to rebuild they need to trade either Gibbs Murphy Yarran to obtain another 1st round pick
They haven't got much currency outside a few.
Minson is no chance to go there as it would be insane to pick up another ruckman.
They've got Warnock, Wood and Kruezer ( who should be there number 1 ruck if fit)
My guess is they'll trade Yarran for an early second rounder late 1st at best .

[GVGjr]

I don't agree GVGjr. I appreciate that Carlton are rebuilding and that they are behind GWS, whether they are behind GCS is debatable.

I see the definition of young list and contending a bit of an oxymoron, contending for what top 8? At the start of the season almost every media agency had Carlton finishing above GWS and thereabouts with GCS. Will GWS play in a Grand Final before Mumford (28), Shaw (29), Griffen (29), Patful (30) retire? No-one named in Carlton's backline on Friday night is anywhere near 30. The oldest is fringe player Sam Rowe at 27 who will make way for Jacksch. The rest are 23-25. That's 6. Foward line is far younger than their backs and rivals GWS / GCS with Armfield, Bell, Tutt, Menzel, Jones, Cripps all young players. Even Gibbs is only 26, Murphy 27. Sure their midfield is aging (Judd, Carazzo, Simpson), but their ages really skew data against just how, not so young, Carlton's list really is. Carazzo will retire this year.


The media underrates and overrates teams all of the time but the fact is that Carlton finished just one position above us last year and yet refused to accept that they weren't in the finals 8 mix. They went in a very different direction to us going into the season and after their lackluster performances so far have now reluctantly explained that they are either in a rebuild or in bad need of one.
Their list is flat with not much quality playing in the VFL to get excited about. A number of recent first/second round picks are also no longer at the club or are just under performing.
Our selection discussions here have a number of well performed players in the mix which is a good thing but that is very different with Carlton.

Back to the question on Minson, I still fail to see why they would be interested in him as they already have 3 ruckman. Will is probably an upgrade but he won't be a game changer for them. Surely they would be better sticking with a combination of what they already have.

To me Carlton have now realised the extent of the mess they are in and they appear to be putting the ball in Silvagni's court to rectify it over a number of years. He won't have the same chips he had at GWS but has no doubt learned a very valuable lesson that the rebuild needs to be done primarily via youth and/or acquiring young players with an upside.

If he charts the course that has him acquiring 31yo ruckman then it won't do much for them in either the shorter or longer term.

If he is interested in the likes of Minson like you believe he might be then I think it would be a poor direction to take.

[GVGjr]

It would be absolutely idiotic for them to go and get Minson. It serves no purpose whatsoever. They need to trade Gibbs for early picks and probably Yarran too, head to the draft, and literally build a list from ground zero.

They should look at how St. Kilda have rebuilt their list. They have a long way to go but the Saints have done a solid job in a short space of time to become competitive. They didn't do that by getting Jolly or other old players, they did it by clearing out Goddard/Dal Santo/McEvoy and drafting/trading well.

I don't want this thread to be turned into a Carlton list management one but they need to find 2 extra picks in the first 2 rounds of the draft both this year and next.
I'd add that Henderson has some currency in that area.

[ReLoad]

when I suggested we trade Minson at the end of his AA year The forum pretty much said bugger off, GWS were pre Mumford and were dying for a big ruckman, we could most certainly would have got a decent player, still hindsight is great isn't it :)

The trick with trades is to be bold, there is nothing bold in Minson moving on and we will pretty much get chump change for him at this stage.

[Remi Moses]

Weren't the only one ;)
We need a head wobble emoction ;)

[jeemak]

Does Will even want to play footy after this year or next?

He doesn't strike me as a pisshead, time and money wasting type so there's a fair chance he's set himself up reasonably well for his next phase in life, especially in lieu of him having outside interests and education to fall back on.

It's fair to say he's probably not going to grow an extra 20 per cent in his tank that will allow him to cover the ground and fit into structures better than he does now, let alone go through the rigours of changing his game and attitude to do that anyway.

Perhaps at the end of the year the club and Will take a bit of time to talk about his future and come to an amicable decision to close out his career a year early. Will stays a Bulldogs man of high distinction, doesn't get put through the indignity of being shopped around for not much and held on to out of spite due to no decent offer coming the clubs' way.

Perhaps Will fights it out to the end and finishes up his career in 2016 as a VFL player, still a distinguished Bulldogs person and someone we can thank for his efforts and respect.

Either way, I don't see many teams offering him a contract similar to the one we're likely to have him on in 2016, nor believing they can fit him into their structure for any great benefit, unless it is for insurance purposes only.

The game seems to have gone past the ruck that hacks the ball out of contests and is limited around the ground. We're either on the cutting edge by realising this before others and playing Cordy as a result, or we're behind all the others having not had a viable replacement for Will as it stands.

[Remi Moses]

Not saying it's right or wrong, but Geelong seem to be emulating this also.
Melbourne aren't playing Jamar either.
Might be seeing the ruck position evolve

[bulldogtragic]

Will is VP of the AFL Players Assoc. Rules state VP or Pres must be a current player. If he wants to keep the job and feels confident in his ability to play footy, I can't see him walking away.

[GVGjr]

Will is VP of the AFL Players Assoc. Rules state VP or Pres must be a current player. If he wants to keep the job and feels confident in his ability to play footy, I can't see him walking away.
He will work through this. I dont think he is finished with us yet.

[1eyedog]

He will work through this. I dont think he is finished with us yet.

Well he is contracted until the end of 2016, not that contracts are worth the paper they're printed on...

[AndrewP6]

Red carded for making contact with an umpire today in the VFL, that isn't going to help his cause.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/will-minson-sent-off-the-ground-in-footscray-vfl-match-for-making-contact-with-an-umpire/story-e6frf3e3-1227367179855

[bulldogtragic]

Red carded for making contact with an umpire today in the VFL, that isn't going to help his cause.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/will-minson-sent-off-the-ground-in-footscray-vfl-match-for-making-contact-with-an-umpire/story-e6frf3e3-1227367179855

WTF... Anyone see it live?

[azabob]

A few reports on the VFL thread

[Mantis]

Disappointing as it sounded like he was going ok and we probably need a strong & combative type in the ruck for GWS next week.

[Topdog]

Disappointing as it sounded like he was going ok and we probably need a strong & combative type in the ruck for GWS next week.

We needed that against Fremantle too but didn't recall him.

[KT31]

The two incidents and comments about Will start at 4:33
http://www.afl.com.au/video/2015-05-25/big-dog-has-no-presence

[Doc26]

4 weeks for Will. Ouch.

[comrade]

What a joke.

The Club is appealing.

[bulldogtragic]

Rubbish...

[AndrewP6]

Absolute joke, the game is now about the umpires rather than the players. As Bevo said, laughable - if it didn't p*** me off that much.

[bornadog]

I just can't believe it. Absolutely appalling.

[Doc26]

Effectively 5 weeks off with the bye.

[F'scary]

Terrible decision. Let us just hope that it does not drive Big Will to drink. Soy milk, especially.

[ratsmac]

What a crock of sh1t

[LostDoggy]

Fkn umpires and players advocates both recommended a fine - I dont get it.

[Happy Days]

Okay, so;

Shove an umpire like Andrew Moore, 3 weeks.

Hit a guy in the face like Luke Hodge, 3 weeks.

Kick a guy in the leg like Nat Fyfe, $1000.

Whatever it is Will did, 4 weeks.

I agree that the need for sanction existed, but come on.

[bulldogtragic]

Everyones advocates were arguing for a fine. Tribunal making a virtual political statement.

Bring out the lawyers.

[Bulldog4life]

Everyones advocates were arguing for a fine. Tribunal making a virtual political statement.

Bring out the lawyers.

Over to you PG

[Doc26]

What a joke.

The Club is appealing.

FreeWilly

[ReLoad]

It's todd Curley all over again.......

[The bulldog tragician]

According to Sam Landsberger the umpire said he only laid the report as he didn't want to be dropped.

[Bulldog4life]

According to Sam Landsberger the umpire said he only laid the report as he didn't want to be dropped.

That umpire is a weak so and so if that is true

[bulldogtragic]

According to Sam Landsberger the umpire said he only laid the report as he didn't want to be dropped.

So the umpire thinks it's rubbish. And every advocate representing all the parties supported a fine as a penalty = 4 weeks suspension...

[KT31]

WTF, had of been a name player or one of the Coke-Cola Kids it would have been a different story.

[GVGjr]

Effectively 5 weeks off with the bye.

Also the half a game served.

[GVGjr]

Everyones advocates were arguing for a fine. Tribunal making a virtual political statement.

Bring out the lawyers.

Former umpire Derek Humpries-Smith didn't think it was much even the AFL umpires boss Wayne Campbell didn't think it was much.

Common sense needs to prevail here. I reckon one week plus the half a game already served would have been fair to all parties.

[Maddog37]

Something stinks here.........

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Another entry for the Infamous Suspensions thread

[Doc26]

Appreciating that Webby and Slim believed that there was a bit more in the incident than meets the eye, it does feel that the VFL have elected to make an overtly strong statement here on their ongoing issue with garnering support and respect for umpiring at its grass roots in Victoria.

[bornadog]

Appreciating that Webby and Slim believed that there was a bit more in the incident than meets the eye, it does feel that the VFL have elected to make an overtly strong statement here on their ongoing issue with garnering support and respect for umpiring at its grass roots in Victoria.

The punishment does not fit the crime. Agree you can't touch the umpire, but its not like he punched him and dropped him to the ground.

[1eyedog]

This will be overturned and the penalty will probably be halved.

[Scorlibo]

What a joke. Most people aren't even aware what they're looking at when watching the vision. Really poor timing for Will also, just when he was on the verge of a senior recall.

[hujsh]

What a joke. Most people aren't even aware what they're looking at when watching the vision. Really poor timing for Will also, just when he was on the verge of a senior recall.

Didn't know Cordy was sick or injured. ;)

[Remi Moses]

Totally insane decision .

[jeemak]

I'm really struggling to understand why posters think this is over the top.

Umpires have been protected for a very long time, and it was clear Will intentionally made contact with this particular umpire as a result of an on-field call.

If you couple that with the anecdotal evidence provided by posters who have proven themselves to be reliable and not prone to dishing out hyperbole then it's not surprising a harsh penalty has been dealt.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I thought he may get 2. Personally 4 seems a little excessive.

[jeemak]

I thought he may get 2. Personally 4 seems a little excessive.

On appeal it might get back to that, but I think he should be satisfied with three.

[Bulldog Joe]

I'm really struggling to understand why posters think this is over the top.

Umpires have been protected for a very long time, and it was clear Will intentionally made contact with this particular umpire as a result of an on-field call.

If you couple that with the anecdotal evidence provided by posters who have proven themselves to be reliable and not prone to dishing out hyperbole then it's not surprising a harsh penalty has been dealt.

Well when the umpires suggest it is minor and (according to press reports) consider a fine to be appropriate, any suspension is over the top.

I could understand a suspension, if the umpiring fraternity were pushing that case. However, when the prosecuting side is suggesting a fine would suit, how can it be justifiably a suspension at all.

[LostDoggy]

I thought he may get 2. Personally 4 seems a little excessive.

That was what I thought. Would amount to 2.5 weeks with the send off. 4 is a bit excessive.

That said, he touched an umpire. Do that and you're totally at the tribunal's mercy.

Does anybody have their reasons for coming to that figure of four weeks?

[Go_Dogs]

Well when the umpires suggest it is minor and (according to press reports) consider a fine to be appropriate, any suspension is over the top.

I could understand a suspension, if the umpiring fraternity were pushing that case. However, when the prosecuting side is suggesting a fine would suit, how can it be justifiably a suspension at all.

I agree.

It's a very unusual circumstance where it seems everyone besides those making the determination were advocating a much lower penalty. Hopefully some common sense will prevail at the appeal.

[The bulldog tragician]

Because of the hyper secrecy of the Tribunal we won't know. However the fact that the VFL itself reportedly recommended a fine only does seem to confirm that the incident was seen even by the authorities involved as minor and that there was no smoking gun, damning vision or allegations that this was deliberate and accompanied by some sort of overt nastiness from Will.

It seems an extremely harsh decision in that light. Surely it will be overturned on appeal.

[firstdogonthemoon]

FOUR WEEKS?! Ridiculous

[KT31]

I thought two would be a fair penalty, four seems overly excessive.
Will must be wracking the weeks up, does anyone know how many weeks in total he has ?
I remember he was reported for striking Ling in his first couple of games and twice for derogatory comments ( although I think the Pierce penalty was by the club.) and I'm not sure but thought a couple of times for wrestling and another striking.
He must be creeping up to double figures.

[Happy Days]

I'm really struggling to understand why posters think this is over the top.

Umpires have been protected for a very long time, and it was clear Will intentionally made contact with this particular umpire as a result of an on-field call.

If you couple that with the anecdotal evidence provided by posters who have proven themselves to be reliable and not prone to dishing out hyperbole then it's not surprising a harsh penalty has been dealt.

You absolutely cannot touch the umpire, but come on 4 weeks is ridiculous. Especially considering Moore from Port Adelaide shoved one and only got 3.

[The Pie Man]

I saw a bunch of examples online last night of players (Hodge & A Goodes specifically) having made contact with umps, but the context appeared way different. Minson's contact wasn't a friendly enquiry of any sort - deserves a suspension IMV.

Having said that, 4 weeks feels harsh.

[bornadog]

I'm really struggling to understand why posters think this is over the top.

Umpires have been protected for a very long time, and it was clear Will intentionally made contact with this particular umpire as a result of an on-field call.

If you couple that with the anecdotal evidence provided by posters who have proven themselves to be reliable and not prone to dishing out hyperbole then it's not surprising a harsh penalty has been dealt.

Hodge says hello

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF7VfyEUoAAjl3n.jpg

[SlimPickens]

Hodge says hello

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF7VfyEUoAAjl3n.jpg

Chalk and cheese BAD.

[bornadog]

Chalk and cheese BAD.

bit of fun

[Doc26]

Chalk and cheese BAD.

Minor observation in the scheme of things and although I agree that the two incidents are at different spectrums, the wording of the two specific laws pertaining to umpire contact and what constitutes a reportable offence and 'order off' is simply "Intentionally or carelessly making contact with", or striking an umpire. The wording doesn't differentiate as to whether there was any malicious intent or not, for which there are other rules that address any threatening behaviour towards an umpire.

Maybe the laws of the game committee should reassess their wording in this regard, that is, whether un-threatening contact is indeed acceptable ala as with Hodge above.

[always right]

The problem is the AFL/media are running the line that any contact with umpires is forbidden. At least this approach is cut and dry......otherwise you are forced to interpet what constitutes friendly contact/a gentle inquiry/getting an umpire's attention/threatening behaviour.

[jeemak]

I don't put much weight into what the umpires and their advocates said on the day, as I couldn't really think of how it would benefit them if they didn't downplay the issue.

It's easier for them to go in and say what they said and let city hall deal with it. Just a thought, not sure whether it's valid.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't put much weight into what the umpires and their advocates said on the day, as I couldn't really think of how it would benefit them if they didn't downplay the issue.

It's easier for them to go in and say what they said and let city hall deal with it. Just a thought, not sure whether it's valid.

Not sure I can agree with your thoughts on this.

As an example, if an offence is taken to court, it would be unprecedented for the judiciary to impose a significantly higher penalty than recommended by the prosecutor.

[jeemak]

Not sure I can agree with your thoughts on this.

As an example, if an offence is taken to court, it would be unprecedented for the judiciary to impose a significantly higher penalty than recommended by the prosecutor.

Let's try not to compare the justice/court system to the VFL tribunal.

[wimberga]

Was dining at Cutler & Co and saw Will in there with his partner around 9.30-10pm.

The guy looked absolutely shattered & wasn't eating.

Feel for Will here.

[bornadog]

I think most supporters agree - Minson is guilty, penalty is harsh. There needs to be a reality check on the severity of penalties compared to other penalties.

I recall in the 1980's Jimmy Krakouer getting 4 ot 5 weeks (please correct me if I am wrong here but going on memory) for tripping, yet Fyfe gets a fine of $1000. Times have changed.

There are many other examples we can all come up with where one player gets a bigger penalty than another. One thing the AFL needs to make it clearer in regards to these incidents. The Hodge one is also in my eyes not right.

Let's hope the appeal is beneficial as it costs $5000 just for the appeal.

[LostDoggy]

I think most supporters agree - Minson is guilty, penalty is harsh. There needs to be a reality check on the severity of penalties compared to other penalties.

I recall in the 1980's Jimmy Krakouer getting 4 ot 5 weeks (please correct me if I am wrong here but going on memory) for tripping, yet Fyfe gets a fine of $1000. Times have changed.

There are many other examples we can all come up with where one player gets a bigger penalty than another. One thing the AFL needs to make it clearer in regards to these incidents. The Hodge one is also in my eyes not right.

Let's hope the appeal is beneficial as it costs $5000 just for the appeal.
I guess one of the issues is that you're dealing with a very small number. Even if you belt a bloke in the head you're still only looking at 6 to 8 week in severe cases. So when you're talking about such small units of punishment of normally one week or two it's only natural that you'll get a major difference between offences.

If the tribunal could hand out punishments by quarters (ie you miss 3 quarters) then there'd be more room for differentiation. I'm not putting that forward as an option, though.

[Twodogs]

I think most supporters agree - Minson is guilty, penalty is harsh. There needs to be a reality check on the severity of penalties compared to other penalties.

I recall in the 1980's Jimmy Krakouer getting 4 ot 5 weeks (please correct me if I am wrong here but going on memory) for tripping, yet Fyfe gets a fine of $1000. Times have changed.

There are many other examples we can all come up with where one player gets a bigger penalty than another. One thing the AFL needs to make it clearer in regards to these incidents. The Hodge one is also in my eyes not right.

Let's hope the appeal is beneficial as it costs $5000 just for the appeal.

I think that Jimmy was charged with kicking or we may be thinking of different things.

[bornadog]

I think that Jimmy was charged with kicking or we may be thinking of different things.

Somehow I recall he stretched out and grabbed the player by the feet and the player fell straight down. I think you are right there was a kicking incident as well.

[Topdog]

What is this anecdotal evidence from people at the ground?

It really is unheard of for prosecutors to ask for something low to be overruled in such a fashion. No benefit for umpires to speak at all in this case jeemak.

[Doc26]

What is this anecdotal evidence from people at the ground?

It really is unheard of for prosecutors to ask for something low to be overruled in such a fashion. No benefit for umpires to speak at all in this case jeemak.

The findings are somewhat confusing, on one hand you have an umpire who did state that he was "intimidated' by Will's action, and further stating that it wasn't an insignificant slap having supposedly made him divert course and then on the other hand the prosecutor apparently supporting only a financial sanction. It doesn't quite add up.

[jeemak]

What is this anecdotal evidence from people at the ground?

It really is unheard of for prosecutors to ask for something low to be overruled in such a fashion. No benefit for umpires to speak at all in this case jeemak.

Some posters suggested that as soon as Will made contact he bellowed a profanity accompanied with a postposition, and suggested it seemed to them the act was an aggressive one - albeit of low impact.

I guess you're right on your second point.

[Rocket Science]

Hodge says hello

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF7VfyEUoAAjl3n.jpg

Heath Shaw (1 week) and Lenny Hayes (no sanction) also say g'day.

http://i.imgur.com/tYcT5ll.jpg http://i.imgur.com/QgbKWa3.jpg

[AndrewP6]

I'm really struggling to understand why posters think this is over the top.

Umpires have been protected for a very long time, and it was clear Will intentionally made contact with this particular umpire as a result of an on-field call.

If you couple that with the anecdotal evidence provided by posters who have proven themselves to be reliable and not prone to dishing out hyperbole then it's not surprising a harsh penalty has been dealt.

Combine that with the words of the umpires themselves who indicated a monetary sanction would be appropriate, and you get complete and utter absurdity. They should be protected, yes. From violent, dangerous behaviour.

[AndrewP6]

Chalk and cheese BAD.

How? Isn't all contact frowned upon?

[Doc26]

Heath Shaw (1 week) and Lenny Hayes (no sanction) also say g'day

And then there examples that simply go unnoticed.

http://imageshack.com/a/img901/8552/Zhn0R8.jpg

[bulldogtragic]

Hard not feel persecuted sometimes, see Grant & Curley in particular.

[soupman]

How? Isn't all contact frowned upon?

Most of these pictures are of players gently touching the umpire as if they are friends, in non-threatening manners.

Will didn't just place a hand on the shoulder, he hit him. It may have been a soft hit, but it certainly wasn't friendly and wasn't taken that way.

Very different.

*This doesn't mean I agree with the penalty he has copped, but I can understand why he is suspended and the others not.

[AndrewP6]

Most of these pictures are of players gently touching the umpire as if they are friends, in non-threatening manners.

Will didn't just place a hand on the shoulder, he hit him. It may have been a soft hit, but it certainly wasn't friendly and wasn't taken that way.

Very different.

*This doesn't mean I agree with the penalty he has copped, but I can understand why he is suspended and the others not.

Not if they're going with "Never touch an umpire". It is one rule or the other. Or at least that is how it should be done. If it's "Never touch an umpire", then all forms must be penalised. And that would be ridiculous, like this is.

[LostDoggy]

Not if they're going with "Never touch an umpire". It is one rule or the other. Or at least that is how it should be done. If it's "Never touch an umpire", then all forms must be penalised. And that would be ridiculous, like this is.

Surely you're taking the piss? Will was not having a friendly chat. On your logic, you could smash the bloke in the face and be seen in the same light as the Lenny Hayes one.

I think 2 weeks would've been a fairer call. One week for touching the ump, one week for the verbal.

[SonofScray]

Surely you're taking the piss? Will was not having a friendly chat. On your logic, you could smash the bloke in the face and be seen in the same light as the Lenny Hayes one.

I think 2 weeks would've been a fairer call. One week for touching the ump, one week for the verbal.

The rule prohibits deliberate contact with an umpire. Whether you punch him, grab him or put your arm around his neck, the rule has been broken. In the context of players getting fined, or in Todd Curley's case rubbed out for a collision, as well as the multitude of times that deliberate contact has been made and not even cited, I think Andrew has made a valid point.

[bornadog]

AFL Players Association calls for review of VFL tribunal after Will Minson case (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/western-bulldogs/afl-players-association-calls-for-review-of-vfl-tribunal-after-will-minson-case-20150527-ghb1np.html)
The Players Association has demanded the AFL review the tribunal processes of its second-tier competitions in light of the "excessive" four-game suspension given to Western Bulldogs ruckman Will Minson for making minor contact with an umpire during a VFL match.


With the Bulldogs set to appeal the decision at a VFL tribunal on Thursday night, AFL Players Association general manager Ian Prendergast threw his weight behind Minson's challenge, labelling the ban "entirely disproportionate" and calling for "common sense to prevail".


As the case sparked strong debate on Wednesday, former Bulldogs star Luke Darcy slammed the VFL tribunal's handling of the charge as "outrageous" and a "disgrace".


While stressing that the safety and respect of umpires was paramount, Prendergast said the case had jolted the association to call for action on concerns it had held even before Tuesday's decision.


"The AFLPA is concerned that the tribunal processes at second-tier levels have not evolved at the same rate as the AFL tribunal system and will be requesting that the AFL undertake a review to address these issues," Prendergast said.


"We have engaged in correspondence with the AFL on this issue prior to the decision involving Will and consider it important based on the large number of AFL players competing in these leagues and the impact any adverse tribunal decision can have on their AFL careers and livelihood."


The stakes are high for Minson, as it is understood the 30-year-old was a strong chance to reclaim his spot in the senior team this Saturday – for the first time since round three – as the Dogs prepare to take on Shane Mumford and Greater Western Sydney at Etihad Stadium.


However should his appeal fail, the All-Australian will be forced to sit out the next five weeks as his suspension period would include a VFL bye.


Earlier this year, Port Adelaide midfielder Andrew Moore was suspended for three weeks for making intentional contact to a umpire in the SANFL, and the Power's subsequent appeal failed because, among other reasons, the SANFL tribunal believed it had to "take a stand".


A tribunal – made up of members with legal backgrounds and usually chaired by a QC – will hear the appeal that could have a significant impact on Minson's career, given the club has already turned to Ayce Cordy to fill the No.1 ruck role for the past five matches.


On the Bulldogs' behalf, the AFLPA had sought permission from the VFL to have legal head Sam Norton act as Minson's advocate in the original hearing, while Dogs legend Chris Grant provided a character reference.


Darcy used his high profile in the media to take aim at the VFL tribunal system on Wednesday, asserting that the decision could unfairly tarnish the reputation of his former team-mate and ruck understudy.


"Two [AFL] umpires have cleaned players up this year. Are they banned for four weeks? No, they're not. It's a disgrace," Darcy said on Triple M.


Minson pleaded guilty to the charge on Tuesday but was shocked at the ruling, given both his advocate and representatives for the VFL had recommended that a fine and reprimand would be an appropriate punishment.


The VFL tribunal strongly disagreed, ruling that Minson's actions constituted a serious offence and that the issue of umpire safety was sacrosanct.


Prendergast said he believed the recommended penalty of a reprimand and fine would have "struck the right balance between penalising the player and sending a strong message".


"We strongly support steps to protect [umpires] on the field and are proud of the respect that players show umpires in this regard," he said. "While Will accepts making any intentional contact with the umpire is unacceptable, the video footage suggests that the contact was incredibly slight."


Minson pleaded guilty to pushing field umpire Tom Chrystie in the back of the shoulder while playing for Footscray against North Ballarat in the VFL match at the weekend.


In his evidence to the hearing, Chrystie rated the strength of the open-handed push a "four or five out of 10" and said Minson swore at him immediately before the contact and that he felt intimidated.


However Chrystie acknowledged that Minson apologised to him twice after he was told he had been reported and that Minson attempted to apologise again after the game.


Minson also sought out Chrystie before Tuesday's hearing to explain the incident and shake hands.


Chrystie said he red-carded Minson and laid the report to avoid jeopardising his career, contending he would be "in the under-18s the rest of the year" had he not followed VFL guidelines on the issue.


In his defence, it was pointed out that Minson recognised the important role umpires play, given his father had officiated in more than 200 amateur level games.

[Ghost Dog]

We must bring in Will straight after the ban ends, as guaranteed he will have a blinder.:)

[GVGjr]

I don't really care about other players and umpires and the only precedent we should compare it to is Andrew Moore's. I believe the penalty handed down had a significant loading applied by the tribunal due to deals being negotiated before the case was heard. Did Minson even explain his involvement? Did he even offer an apology? Did he get a chance to do either? We need to go into today's hearing with a better plan.

[KT31]

We must bring in Will straight after the ban ends, as guaranteed he will have a blinder.:)

Either that or he will accidentally crunch someone.:)

[firstdogonthemoon]

Wait what? Minson is named in the team for Saturday I don't understand.

Oops sorry - looked at this thread before the other one.

[Greystache]

Cleared by appeal and free to play.

[GVGjr]

Cleared by appeal and free to play.

Quite a turnaround

[whythelongface]

Cleared by appeal and free to play.

Wow. Great news. Well done to PG and the team for fighting the charge.

[Greystache]

Quite a turnaround

Yep, hard to comprehend. To go from so harsh to completely cleared is difficult to understand.

[GVGjr]

Yep, hard to comprehend. To go from so harsh to completely cleared is difficult to understand.

You have to wonder if our initial approach that tried to hand the tribunal completed outcome before the evidence was heard was the right thing.

[bornadog]

Common sense prevails.

[Ghost Dog]

Yep, hard to comprehend. To go from so harsh to completely cleared is difficult to understand.

Slater and Gordon to the rescue?

[LostDoggy]

A $7,500 fine in the VFL is still a strong statement against physical contact with an Umpire

[The Adelaide Connection]

This has got me pretty puzzled:

"Norton said a fine would be a more appropriate penalty, suggesting that $3000 – or the twice the VFL maximum penalty - would be a suitable amount."

If $1500 is the maximum penalty, how can they throw $7500. Not that I think we should complain or raise too many eyebrows, to go from 4 weeks to none is a remarkable turnaround.

[bulldogtragic]

This has got me pretty puzzled:

"Norton said a fine would be a more appropriate penalty, suggesting that $3000 – or the twice the VFL maximum penalty - would be a suitable amount."

If $1500 is the maximum penalty, how can they throw $7500. Not that I think we should complain or raise too many eyebrows, to go from 4 weeks to none is a remarkable turnaround.

Give them $1,500 in 5c pieces and let them chase Gordon Legal for the balance.

[The bulldog tragician]

Minson's counsel was Sam Norton from Robert Stary Lawyers.

[AndrewP6]

Well done to PG, the legal reps... unbelievably, common sense kicks in.

[AndrewP6]

Surely you're taking the piss? Will was not having a friendly chat. On your logic, you could smash the bloke in the face and be seen in the same light as the Lenny Hayes one.

I think 2 weeks would've been a fairer call. One week for touching the ump, one week for the verbal.


Late reply, I just got home.

Yes, as a matter of fact I am (was) perfectly serious.It has nothing to do with my logic, it is the rule as stated, and the approach of many (on here and elsewhere)...and that is "You can't touch an umpire". Applied correctly, any contact, friendly or otherwise, should be penalised. That isn't my preference, that's how they (supposedly) want the rule enforced. It wasn't enforced as such, and I'm glad this was shown to be the case. FWIW, I think the hardline "You can't touch an umpire" is stupid, and contact such as Goodes, Hodge, Will recently made are not worthy of anything more than a warning or perhaps financial sanction.

[Doc26]

This has got me pretty puzzled:

"Norton said a fine would be a more appropriate penalty, suggesting that $3000 – or the twice the VFL maximum penalty - would be a suitable amount."

If $1500 is the maximum penalty, how can they throw $7500. Not that I think we should complain or raise too many eyebrows, to go from 4 weeks to none is a remarkable turnaround.

Interesting point that you raise. I was trying to track down what the current maximum monetary sanctions for a player are in the VFL but to date haven't come across them.

I'm wondering with tonight's overturn whether we save on our $5k appeal lodgement ? I suspect that we do.

[G-Mo77]

This news made my night while at work. I've been supportive of giving Ayce games but I've been a big fan of Will for many years. It's fantastic that he's been cleared of this ridiculous suspension and great to see him back playing seniors. Good luck big fella!!

[Webby]

He's a lucky boy! Great news for us, though.

Hopefully he NEVER touches an umpire again!

[boydogs]

Wait what? Minson is named in the team for Saturday I don't understand.

Oops sorry - looked at this thread before the other one.

He was named before he was cleared, the AFL said if he is still suspended after the appeal we have until 11am Friday to resubmit the team

[Ozza]

My understanding is that match payments for players are typically around $3K per game at AFL level. So Will paying a $7500 fine, but potentially playing those 4 matches at AFL level instead...its a great investment!

[Dancin' Douggy]

What I'm wondering now, is what is Ayce Cordy's immediate future?

[G-Mo77]

What I'm wondering now, is what is Ayce Cordy's immediate future?

Out of contract at seasons end and needs to prove he can compete at AFL level. I don't think he's as far away as some people think. Some more weight on his frame would be a good start.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Out of contract at seasons end and needs to prove he can compete at AFL level. I don't think he's as far away as some people think. Some more weight on his frame would be a good start.
I agree with the weight on the frame bit. He's simply not physically strong enough to be an AFL ruckman.

[Jeanette54]

Its so good to see Will back in the seniors. Seize the chance Wilbur, and show ém what you are capable of.

ps. In future leave the drug addled fungusses well alone.

[Twodogs]

Minson's counsel was Sam Norton from Robert Stary Lawyers.

Doesn't Rob have an office on Barkly street? Near the corner of Victoria street? He'd be the closest lawyer to Whitten oval I'd think.

[Twodogs]

Out of contract at seasons end and needs to prove he can compete at AFL level. I don't think he's as far away as some people think. Some more weight on his frame would be a good start.

Especially through his core and legs.

[Twodogs]

This has got me pretty puzzled:

"Norton said a fine would be a more appropriate penalty, suggesting that $3000 – or the twice the VFL maximum penalty - would be a suitable amount."

If $1500 is the maximum penalty, how can they throw $7500. Not that I think we should complain or raise too many eyebrows, to go from 4 weeks to none is a remarkable turnaround.

How many charges were there? If there were five seperate sanctions-making contact with an umpire, swearing, being an idiot, something else, generally playing for Footscray/Western Bulldogs-then 5x1500=7500.

[bornadog]

Minson's counsel was Sam Norton from Robert Stary Lawyers.


Doesn't Rob have an office on Barkly street? Near the corner of Victoria street? He'd be the closest lawyer to Whitten oval I'd think.

He has recently expanded the partnership and the firm is now called: Stary, Norton, Halphen.

They have 6 offices including one on Paisley st. http://www.robertstary.com.au/

As we know PG doesn't practise anymore.

[bornadog]

Minson Statement

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-29/will-minson-statement

[Twodogs]

He has recently expanded the partnership and the firm is now called: Stary, Norton, Halphen.

They have 6 offices including one on Paisley st. http://www.robertstary.com.au/

As we know PG doesn't practise anymore.

Paisley street, cheers BAD. I remember seeing the sign as I drove past a couple of weeks ago just as he was being interviewed on the car radio.

[Go_Dogs]

Yep, hard to comprehend. To go from so harsh to completely cleared is difficult to understand.

Good to see football tribunals competency is consistent across all levels of the sport.

[Eastdog]

Still didn't get off but at least the punishment is not as severe so I'm happy. Was definitely not worth 4 weeks at all watching the footage.

[boydogs]

Interesting comments in this video, Will claimed to be trying to get the umpire's attention

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2015-05-28/free-will

[bornadog]

The big fella is not done with yet

[Dancin' Douggy]

Gee wasn't it great to have him back. Starting 22 every week.

[GVGjr]

We need the big man. Great return game

[Doc26]

Sanity has prevailed. Welcome back big fella.

[chef]

So happy for Willy.

[comrade]

Great to have his presence but Roughy will be our #1 ruck in our next tilt.

[boydogs]

Will's goals were really valuable, breaking even and contesting hard in the centre was good but the goals really brought a hurt factor to his game

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great return game. Thought that the Minson/Roughy combo dominated Mumford in the first 3 quarters.

[F'scary]

Minno was great today. Great partnership with Roughead. First game in weeks where we haven't been smashed in the stoppages. Significant contributing factor to an excellent win.

[SonofScray]

Really stirring reception he received from the fans today. I could tell it meant a lot to him. For mine, Will is a terrific Club man and today was a nice acknowledgment of that for him matched with a solid on field performance.

[G-Mo77]

How good is this?

http://s1.postimg.org/fy3ywi3e7/CGPn_Eg_PUc_AAeis_W.jpg

[G-Mo77]

Really stirring reception he received from the fans today. I could tell it meant a lot to him. For mine, Will is a terrific Club man and today was a nice acknowledgment of that for him matched with a solid on field performance.

Agree. I've been very supportive of giving Ayce some games as the sole ruck. We did that and we learnt he's still got some work to do. In that time I've forgotten how much I love Will and forgotten how much he loves this club. Post game he came to my side of the ground pointing to his jumper in celebration the crowd gave him huge cheers and applause. As a loyal fan who will die a Bulldogs supporter moments like that are precious, you never forget them. Great stuff Wilba.

[jeemak]

His ruck work was a bit up and down as was his work in general play around the ground, but what really impressed me today about Will was his want to hit the scoreboard and have an impact.

A ruck who can kick a goal or two a game is hugely valuable.

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1199931439/SDC14136_bigger.jpgWill Minson‏@WMinson (https://twitter.com/WMinson)


I can't thank the @westernbulldogs (https://twitter.com/westernbulldogs) fans enough for their support this evening! Simply unbelievable. #bemorebulldog (https://twitter.com/hashtag/bemorebulldog?src=hash) thank you.

[Remi Moses]

Kudos to Will, as he was outstanding .
Pulled Mummy's pants down, and in fact embarrassed him.
Best game he's played since 2013

[Webby]

Yes Will was great yesterday. The observation that it was the best game Will's played since 2013 is pretty fair. Coincidence? Or do we now look at his time in the 2nds as perhaps the making of him?

I've had my doubts about Will (and if I'm honest, I still do), however, having closely watched him playing for Footscray, his attitude and leadership amongst our younger guys was very good. He really was going well against North Ballarat until his sending off. In short, he didn't sulk, he worked on his game.

I thought he's now covering the ground much better. Although Mummy is hardly a running ruckman, Will was very accountable and also obviously gave us something up forward. In short, on the back of yesterday's performance, I think he's back.

Maybe this is a huge tick for Beveridge's man management capabilities?

One final observation is that the combination of Roughie and Will changing in the ruck might be the perfect blend of strength and movement around the ground. Perhaps by rucking solo for such a long period, Will had developed a habit of rolling along at a conservative pace? If he's now instructed to run a lot harder in the faith that he'll be able to change with a partner, he'll be able to do a bit more lung burning?

I think we might be onto something there...

[whythelongface]

One final observation is that the combination of Roughie and Will changing in the ruck might be the perfect blend of strength and movement around the ground. Also strength and mobility?

I think we might be onto something there...

The combination worked really well. I like the fact that Beveridge has the guts to change things up and experiment with the line up. For instance when we have both Will and Roughy around the stoppages and the opposition isn't sure who is taking the rucking duties. This lead to an instance yesterday where Roughy was fouled and had a set shot. This move creates confusion with the opposition.

I liked the Cordy experiment but ultimately this ran out of legs (whether it is dead and buried not so sure) but the combo from last night really created our win as we were able to negate Mumford's influence on the game.

Agree that we might have found something here. Great move and hope it continues (maybe it is a game by game proposition depending on whom we are playing).

[ledge]

Anyone notice Roughy went forward as well ? Roberts and Wood allowed him to go forward as The coach obviously felt more confidence in our back 6 holding up which is hugely impressive when you look at games played by them
, Webb, Hamling, Roberts and Dale have about 15 senior games between them.
This team is coming and coming along fast now.
No SMith no Liberatore no Honeychurch, no Crameri no Stringer . Best list I've ever seen.

[Webby]

Roberts is getting better and better, whilst Hamling looks to be a keeper. We've also got an improved Talia in the 2nds today... It means that Roughie is suddenly a swingman-cum-ruckman. A handy type to have.

[F'scary]

The Minson / Roughead combo looks like a geniune solution. They are different types of rucks so there is variety. It also means Minson doesn't have to pace himself to last an entire game as solo ruck. Will's physicality has been very, very, very sorely missed over the past few weeks.

[Maddog37]

I had no idea how much I had missed watching Minno play. Ditto J Grant.

[merantau]

I think Will Minson has a lot of character. He will be a major contributor to our continued success this season. I'm glad he's back.

[SonofScray]

I think Will Minson has a lot of character. He will be a major contributor to our continued success this season. I'm glad he's back.

Absolutely unquestionable. Through the Rocket era when he was in and out of the side, called the "dumbest smart bloke" etc he just plied his trade and did what was asked of him. Under Macca he carried a monumental workload and backed up week after week. Under Bev he has been good but challenged to change his game, which he is working on. I think he has really strong leadership qualities.

Glad he is back in the squad.

[F'scary]

Will "Raging Bull" Minson.

[LostDoggy]

Big Will deserves some love.

He's attitude whilst spending all year in the VFL has been first class.

He's rucking basically all game (especially now with Tommy C injured and Goetz gone), he's giving it his all every week, he's getting back helping defensively and he's getting around his teammates and looks to still genuinely care.

I'm sure some will say all that should be expected of him, but at the stage of his career with the door basically shut on senior opportunity, I'm so impressed by his attitude.

Hopefully we can get some blokes back from injury and really give the VFL flag a big shake. Big Will deserves the success.

[Mantis]

Good call JT.

Really showing what a great clubman he is through his actions... If it is his final year at the club (which looks likely) I hope we play him against Ess so he can get a send off from the Melb based supporters... But unsure which players will be able to carry him off, hopefully not Caleb!

[bulldogtragic]

Good call JT.

Really showing what a great clubman he is through his actions... If it is his final year at the club (which looks likely) I hope we play him against Ess so he can get a send off from the Melb based supporters... But unsure which players will be able to carry him off, hopefully not Caleb!

It's a serious OH&S risk. :D

[Ghost Dog]

Good call JT.

Really showing what a great clubman he is through his actions... If it is his final year at the club (which looks likely) I hope we play him against Ess so he can get a send off from the Melb based supporters... But unsure which players will be able to carry him off, hopefully not Caleb!

Very close to being picked I would have thought against North. Love to see him rag-doll a few bombers for good measure.

[1eyedog]

Big Will deserves some love.

He's attitude whilst spending all year in the VFL has been first class.

He's rucking basically all game (especially now with Tommy C injured and Goetz gone), he's giving it his all every week, he's getting back helping defensively and he's getting around his teammates and looks to still genuinely care.

I'm sure some will say all that should be expected of him, but at the stage of his career with the door basically shut on senior opportunity, I'm so impressed by his attitude.

Hopefully we can get some blokes back from injury and really give the VFL flag a big shake. Big Will deserves the success.

He's paid big money to do his job though. You don't do your job in any industry and you're in strife.

[LostDoggy]

He's paid big money to do his job though. You don't do your job in any industry and you're in strife.

Well same with any work place - You can either do the minimum required and just do enough to coast through, or you can go above and beyond. I know which category Minson slots into.

[Ozza]

He's paid big money to do his job though. You don't do your job in any industry and you're in strife.

There has been plenty of players who have not responded well to extended periods in the VFL. Will is a 190-game former All Australian. I think that posters are right to commend his attitude.

[ledge]

Minson has always put in 100% that has never been questioned its more his ability and where he fits in. Will always be respected and a dogs player who tried his best. Would get love from us even if he went to another club .
As I read it no other team seems interested , I wonder if he would stay as a VFL player .

[Smads57]

I fully agree with the comments above from JT around big Will's effort this year in the VFL (but I could be biased...)

[LostDoggy]

Good call JT.

Really showing what a great clubman he is through his actions... If it is his final year at the club (which looks likely) I hope we play him against Ess so he can get a send off from the Melb based supporters... But unsure which players will be able to carry him off, hopefully not Caleb!
Agree with this. Wouldn't do Roughy any harm to have a week off about now also. I know there is a bye in a few weeks, but his body has been fragile and has carried a huge load this year, so the sooner he gets a breather the better.

[SonofScray]

Love Wilbur and think he has proven himself as a great club man and a good leader. He has taken the limited opportunities in his stride and got on with the job. Deserves a good send off from the fans should the next few games prove to be his last in the tricolours.

[LostDoggy]

Love Wilbur and think he has proven himself as a great club man and a good leader. He has taken the limited opportunities in his stride and got on with the job. Deserves a good send off from the fans should the next few games prove to be his last in the tricolours.

Last Saturday in September would be a fair send off :)

[Bulldog Joe]

Last Saturday in September would be a fair send off :)

For 2016 the first Saturday in October would be better.

[merantau]

Will Minson is a stand out man for the way he's gone about it this year. Has not stopped putting in and if he gets called up you can be guaranteed he"ll leave nothing in the shed.

[Twodogs]

We have been discussing Minson's immediate future for more than nine years now.

[merantau]

We have been discussing Minson's immediate future for more than nine years now.

I guess that some here have a long-term view of history. Could Will re-invent himself to become the game's first 500 gamer?.

[Twodogs]

I guess that some here have a long-term view of history. Could Will re-invent himself to become the game's first 500 gamer?.

I read somewhere that Michael Tuck played 98 reserves games for Hawthorn. He must have started in the twos there when he was twelve!

[1eyedog]

Yes we need him to play against Essendon and absolutely tear it up to ensure his next contract there is as long as possible. He deserves it after all has given to this club.

[westdog54]

I read somewhere that Michael Tuck played 98 reserves games for Hawthorn. He must have started in the twos there when he was twelve!

Context: Harvey is the same age now as when Tuck retired and I'm guessing Boomer wouldn't have played 98 Reserves/VFL games.

Tuck had only played 16 more finals than Boomer as well.

Tuck really did have an extraordinary career.